Small Town Murder - #239 - The Bathtub Strangler - Clarkston, Georgia

Episode Date: September 2, 2021

This week, in Clarkston, Georgia, fear quickly spreads when a woman is found, strangled, and floating, in her own bathtub. The fear only gets worse when it happens to another woman... Then another one. It's a mystery, but the one thing that is known for sure, is that a serial killer is on the loose. A suspect finally emerges, after a police sketch is made, but he's not admitting anything, except one particularly embarrassing detail, that he says proves his innocence! Along the way, we find out that this small town probably has some pretty good food, that bath water gets cold, faster than we thought, and that you can't possibly be a rapist/murderer, if you only have sex with your sister! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman  New episodes every Thursday!  Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail]  Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!  Follow us on...  twitter.com/@murdersmall  facebook.com/smalltownpod  instagram.com/smalltownmurder  Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Clarkston, Georgia, fear spreads when a woman is found viciously strangled in her own bathtub. But that fear only gets worse when it happens again and again.

Welcome to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us again today, or if it's your first time, welcome. A lot of new listeners lately, and we are excited to have you. Welcome, welcome. We have an extremely crazy situation, I'll just say, for this week.

This is wild, and don't think, okay, it's all solved, that's enough. This is one where you've got to go through the whole thing and listen to it because, oh, boy, are there some real Easter eggs in this one? It really gets crazy. So listen to that first. Just want to thank everybody for everything you've done for us this week. And always, if you haven't yet, give us a review on whatever platform you're listening to. I don't know what app you're listening on, but there's always a way to rate. So give however many stars is appropriate on that app. don't know just do it thanks it helps out the show

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Just to let you know, if anybody at the $5 or above level, you get access to everything, all the bonus episodes for Crime and Sports and Small Town Murder. The sports ones aren't usually sports related. We release two every other week, so you're going to get four episodes a month. It's a lot of fun. This week on the Crime and Sports bonus, which, again, you'll have access to,

and the whole back catalog here, we are going to talk about the demise of the XFL, the first one, the first iteration in 2001. So there's going to be a lot of Vince McMahon craziness, and obviously that's going to be a good time. I love talking about defunct ventures. It's my favorite thing in the world. What went wrong? And anything that Vince McMahon fails at. It feels good to chart it feels

good to celebrate yeah well any idea that's like there was a nugget there where everybody was excited about it and then at some point all of this excitement turned to oh shit and then i love that moment so yeah talk about the xfl and then for small town murder we do it it's been god i think the beginning of january was the last time we did it so we're very excited to talk about another season of love after lockup oh my goodness we have so much to tell you about find out why somebody is having a a funeral for a sex doll it's amazing just not even a doll a toy check it out the man's at a eulogy he built. He built a casket. It's wild. So check all that out. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports.

And of course, you're a producer at that point, so you will get a shout out at the end of the show when Jimmy does the list of shout outs. I don't even mispronounce your name while trying to pronounce it well. So you get it all there. And if you just want to get a shout out and be a producer, you can do that over at PayPal using our email address, Crime andports at gmail.com. Quickly, the disclaimer, this is a comedy show. We're comedians, so we're going to try to make jokes and make jokes. And also, in addition to that, people will die.

That's what happens because it's called small-town murder, so it would be weird if there was no murder. I wasn't even there. That's the thing. The thing is here, there are lots of ways't even there that's the thing the thing is here there are lots of ways to make jokes that aren't about the murder you don't have to make fun of an actual murder there's nothing funny about someone being murdered but there is a lot funny about someone thinking i can get away with murder that's hilarious and within that lies the jokes and

everything there so it's a lot of fun and crazy at the same time so uh what we go out of our way to do is we try to never make fun of the victim or the victim's families why is that because we're assholes but but we're not scumbags that's how that works and you'd have to be a scumbag to do that so with that said i think it's time if you don't think true crime and comedy should ever go together i don't know maybe it's not for you but you should probably give it a shot for everybody else give it a run give it a whirl i think it's time to sit back and shout shut up and give me murder let's do this jimmy i can't wait let's go on a trip shall we i would love this we are coming from arkansas so we're kind of in the i call that like the midwest south arkansas miss I call that like the Midwest South.

Arkansas, Missouri, that's like the Midwest South, where it's like it's the South, but it's also sort of the Midwest, and it's very strange. Here, we're going down. This is the South. We're going to Georgia. This is the Deep South. We're going to, it's outside of Atlanta, though, right outside. It's like a suburb of Atlanta, so we're not going too far into the sticks this week like we have been recently. This is Clarkston, Georgia.

It's in north central Georgia, about 20 minutes outside of Atlanta. OK. So in traffic about six hours outside of Atlanta. If you've ever been to Atlanta and had to drive a mile and a half and you're like, why is this taking all night? I can see where I'm going. What the what am I doing? Yeah. At your destination, you could see where you got in the Uber two hours ago.

Yeah. Two hours ago. And the poor Uber driver's like, this is my whole fucking night. This ride is $12. It's my entire night. And they feel terrible. So it's about two and a half hours to Birmingham, Alabama, which is kind of the next closest big city.

If you want to call that a big city. And then about an hour and 10 minutes down south to Barnesville, Georgia, which was 2020's Christmas episode, if we remember that. I can't remember the details, but I'm sure it was very merry, obviously. Barnesville or Bartlesville? Barnesville, I think it was. Yeah, Barnesville. Because we did Bartlesville somewhere else, right? That was a different state, yeah.

That's Oklahoma, Bartlesville, I think. Oh, boy. So, yes, this is in DeKalb County, area code 404. It's about one point, almost two square miles. It's not a huge place. And they have three different, literally, not a joke, three different mottos for this joint here. My God. First is really really really cheesy this is just somebody in the like the city office went to school for marketing and they were like this will work

quote where the possibilities grow okay great that's you're not even trying with that that's a great place to work live and play you might as well have it be that that's boring the second one is very unique to this town the the Ellis Island of the South, which is, that's saying something. This place is full of refugees, this town. This town has decided to take all the refugees they could, basically. From everywhere? From everywhere. There's people from everywhere in this town.

And then also, the other one that's on the website is, quote, a small town with a big heart, which is like half of the town's ones. And then I found another one that because those are very they're real excited about that big hearts, possibilities, Ellis Island. And then I found another one that made a little more sense. I had to search it through the Web pages for it, but I found it. It's, quote, relax. It's still Georgia. So, you know, don't get don't get too up to uh going on about it history of this town uh briefly here there's a post office that's been here since 1876 so that's

the first time they had a post office uh it was called clarkston in 1882 after the so many towns are named after a railroad official is that what this is yep ww clark named after a railroad official. Is that what this is? Yep. W.W. Clark, who was a railroad official. That's how many towns were named after just some dude who some middle management guy at the railroad. Like, honestly, it's not even the CEO. Nope. Just some guy who was there originally referred to as new siding. That was the name of it. Like a new aluminum siding.

I don't know. Named after Jake New, who was a foreman that worked for the Georgia Railroad. Does everybody that works for the railroad get a break, man? I guess so. Well, Colonel W.W. Clark was a director of the Georgia Railroad. So that's how he got. He took it away from the other guys like listen underling i'm taking this one here so uh the railroad made

commuting to atlanta very easy so clarkston became uh the kind of the it's known as the first one of the first true suburban communities in the south essentially so the commuters were the people who lived here first and kind here. They have a folk tale from the turn of the century. It's a lot of letters to say lie. Go on. Folk tale turn of the of the 1900s to the 18 to the 1900s. That century mentions Goatsville and Angora Heights as alternate names given to clarkston uh it was said that in the early 1900s the people who lived here owned up to 20 goats each so apparently goats back then in this area were associated with a high level of prestige and yes and so they how

about you just keep the money high level look at all my goats just standing there looking with your hands on your hips look at them i'm so prestigious oh boy 20 goats is the equivalent of like 20 escalades today i guess i didn't get the job as president of the bank but look at all my goats yeah yeah hang on to the cash man it uh led to the nickname of goatsville and then it uh i don't know apparently it's that's just a uh the high school mascot though is the angora goat so i guess that's what it is here now ref refugees here uh were a big part of this town like we said georgia is among states that receive the highest amount of refugees for resettlement and has resettled more than 37,000 refugees since 1993.

That's awesome. I had no idea about that. Clarkston receives a large portion of the refugees, but since 2016 it pretty much stopped there. I guess that's something that you'd really never think about. No. I mean, refugees have got to go somewhere. Yeah, and you know they're going here,

but you're like, I don't know where they go. They go to Clarkson. That's where they go. And in 2019, federal funding for refugee programs was pretty much taken to zero, so they haven't really been able to resettle many people lately. Reviews of this town here, we have a few of them. People seem to like it. I have a few five stars.

Here's five stars. Vibrant neighborhood. All services are at an easy reach. Safe place with beautiful weather. Public schools are around the corner. Even colleges, which I plan to attend. Okay. You're 20 minutes outside of Atlanta.

How dare you say decent. nice, what did it say? Beautiful weather. Great weather? Beautiful. Fuck you. The worst weather. Fuck you. It's rough down there weather-wise.

It's either 110 and 400% humidity, or it's freezing and windy and pouring rain. And you're stuck in the airport because flights got canceled. Fuck you with your this is great weather. Yeah, there has to be nice times of year to be there. I haven't discovered it yet. I've either been really hot or really cold. One of the two.

Evidently, every time I've been booked there was around their shitty time. Apparently so, in all seasons. Here's five stars. Quote, a lot of diversity, plenty of places to eat, a small town with a good amount of single women. Perfect town for young people. Hey, look at this. Now we're talking. Yeah.

I would assume with all the people from all sorts of different cultures, you are going to get a pretty awesome food scene for a small town. Yeah. You're going to get some good, genuine food here. Here's three stars. Now, this one here, they're not as up on it as the rest of the people. Three stars. Clarkston is an area that gives out a homely vibe.

I think he means homey. I hope so. I would hope so. Because homely sounds, it's just plain and sort of ugly, I guess. Straight hair. Yeah. That's what that is. Yeah.

I remember my aunt, who was like 65 years old when I was a kid, called a girl that I saw homely. And I was like, oh, that's a compliment. I wasn't with her, but she's homely. I was like, oh, my. Now, this area also consists of higher crime rates, such as robbery and the occasional fights and shootings. higher crime rates such as robbery and the occasional fights and shootings the area consists of teenagers who supposedly are in a gang of some sort where the rival gangs would fight each other in a tree-filled area behind the indian creek elementary school and right by the willow branch apartments okay if that sounds like high school kids if they're if they're fighting having their

gang fights in the in a wooded area behind the elementary school, those aren't gang fights. Those are groups of friends that are fighting each other. That's not a gang. I'm sorry. The designated gang fight area? That doesn't exist. It's not exactly a cartel. It's like, we're going to have a rumble behind the Indian Creek Elementary School, everybody.

Be there or be square. Here's three stars. It's pretty cool living here. We have community centers and church groups who are active in the lives of the youth. We have vegetable gardens and soccer fields to enjoy ourselves. All righty. Sounds like it's more than three stars then. Why did you only give it three stars?

Here's three stars. They didn't like it. They don't like it at all. Three stars. I've been living here for about six months. My car has been robbed four times. I do not care for the school system here. I will be moving as soon as my lease is up.

Did your car not come with locks? I was going to say. What the fuck? No other reviews did anyone mention incessant car theft. So this person, I think, just has terrible luck. Four times in six months? Put a fucking light out there man i don't know what to tell you not work what the fuck slap an alarm on that bad boy so uh population of

this town it has spiked dramatically in the really in 1960 there was 1500 people here by 1990 there's 5300 people here wow and then now there's 12627 people here yeah because it's you know outside of atlanta it's a lot it's up 135 percent since 1990 so the quaintness i would assume is leaving it's disappearing yeah yeah male females a couple more males and females but it's pretty close to average median age is low here usually it's about 37 and a half here it's 27 and a half wow any anything above 45 years old all those demographics are way low there's people are not retiring here and uh tons of people 25 to 34 is the group where there's everybody and a lot of kids too tons of kids so seems like a place where a young family would move apparently glendale yes in

phoenix yes it's like well i can get a house out there or an apartment over here so i'll go to get the house uh married it's a little less 45 of the people are married so it's a little less than normal uh single with no children not as many as you'd imagine with those age groups it's only 13 so it's not i mean it's not bad but it's also not as not as high as some of the places. Race of this town, probably the lowest we've had of white people, 7.6 percent white, which is much lower than the 61 and a half percent average in the rest of the country. That's awesome. Fifty five percent black in this town, which is much higher than the 12 percent.

which is much higher than the 12 percent 29.6 percent asian which is by far the most asian people we've had like by 10 by three four five times that's so many it's normally five percent 29.6 percent so yeah 4.2 percent hispanics so you're it's very a lot of different people very diverse i bet you we will never find a demographic like that ever again. Not in a small town. No, no. Why do you see the religions? Because normally it's the South, but everything's all out of whack here. It's about the same near 50 50 on religion.

But 10 percent are Baptists, which normally Baptists are the Catholics of the South, obviously. But here it's only 10 percent. About the same are the Catholics of the South, obviously. But here, it's only 10%. About the same as the Catholics here. So that's not normal for the South. A few Methodists. 11.6% are other Christian faith. You got your Presbyterians here and there. 1% Jewish.

What? In Georgia, you never thought you'd get. Hava, Nagila, Hava, Gila, Havana, Gila. I don't know the words. That is fucking hilarious. Never thought you'd get that, right? 1% Eastern faith, like Buddhism, Taoism, stuff like that. 1.9% Muslim here, even.

Wow. This is like, we've never had this before in small towns. This county, this is DeKalb County. I believe this is where Atlanta is also. It's an urban place here. Last election, 83 percent of the people voted Democrat here, 15.7 percent Republican. So it's kind of the exact flip flop of last week where we had a very rural town. Here we have unemployment rate is, again, about the same as

last week, a little bit low. It's about 5%, about 6% in the rest of the country. Now the median income, like last week, also low. That's the problem. Low unemployment, but the jobs don't pay that much. Normally it's about $57,500 for median income. Here it's $35,93434 so about 36 000 median household income which is tough that's tough 55 percent of people make 40 000 or less which is exactly i think the same as last week which is strange uh it's just two sides of the same coin you know and uh retail trade and food services are the highest jobs here highest percentages now cost Now, cost of living, as we know, 100 is regular average par. Here it's 97. So not that cheap, but the housing is a decent price here.

69 is the housing out of 100. Median home cost, $160,100 here. So if we've convinced you, damn it, that you feel like commuting to Atlanta, we have for you the Clarkston, Georgia, real estate report. Your average two-bedroom rental here goes for, it's pretty close to the national average, $1,168. So renting doesn't seem like the way to go here it's not it housing though the housing market is rough right now and it's no different here i found a one bedroom one bath 808 square foot little place it's little

it's uh it's a standalone building yeah yeah but there's like one next to it it's like a condo that's barely not attached like a barely freestanding condo. $79,900 for this. It's affordable. Yeah, it's small. It's for one person or a couple or something. I found a three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,555-square-foot house. Now you're talking.

It's a family house. You know, decent. It's brick. In case there's wolves about. There are tornadoes. You never know. Yeah, it's brick. $250,000 for that, though.

So, you know, that's kind of borderline getting expensive. And then I found this is actually for what it is. Seems like the deal. Five bedroom, five bath tea bowl for each and every B-Hall right there. Three thousand two hundred sixty one square foot. It looks pretty new. It's like nice. It's brick. It looks pretty new it's like nice it's brick it's nice it's big it's a it's a nice fucking house 450 000 for that though so okay it's gonna cost you you're gonna have to own one of the food places too that's a bit that's a bit much yeah

uh things to do in this town i found the clarkston culture fest which normally in the south we would know exactly what that would consist of. But in this town, who the fuck knows? Because there's people from everywhere. Could be yogurt here. Yeah, we don't know. Yogurt and cottage cheese. Cultures.

That's the culture festival. Oh, you thought we meant. Oh, no, no, no. No, no, no. We're just working out cultures. So we think it's kind of cool. It's kind of cool, man. My dog's got an ear infection.

We did a culture on him. Check that out. kind of cool man my dog's got an ear infection we did a culture on him check that out just gonna culture all these diseases and virus i and bacteria oh my god that's actually true too i have a dog that's allergic to everything i found out uh including rice which is like poor bastard dogs are allergic to rice you give them when they're sick so i don't know anyway uh live performances all throughout the day we will have performances from clarkston area musicians and artists both professional and amateur oh boy it's like an open mic don't do that including some of our local schools performing groups oh we all we all have

to pretend they're good that's good um these performances will portray the cultural diversity of clarkston delight the audience with beautiful artistry and encourage audience participation and engagement. That sounds like a nightmare. They will have a cultural village with booths, and each booth will be staffed by a Clarkston resident who will educate festival goers about the language, culture, traditions, artifacts of their culture. Because there's so many different cultures there. So you can walk around and be like, fuck's up up with you what's up with those hats you guys wear it's a fucking weird hat what you got there bell and then they explain you go oh i'm sorry that was yeah what is that so uh what do you got there okay what do you got why are you wearing why

don't you wear a shirt but what's going on that looks more like a i don't know so uh the fun zone oh man the fun zone hosted by city hope community geared for the younger population but open to kids of all ages jimmy yeah this area will provide activities such as face and nail painting hair braiding inflatable bouncy games limited sports options whatever the hell that means limited sports options, whatever the hell that means, limited sports options, and children's carnival games. Fuck. And then there's vendors, a food truck alley, which sounds like the worst of all worlds to me. Come get sick.

You know how I feel about food trucks. I understand sometimes there's food on there, and when you put that food in a building and put a chair there, I'll go come and fucking get that food. When I have to smell your fucking diesel exhaust while you make it in a truck i'm good thanks buddy and if you put that in an alley yeah which is the only thing more only thing that could make the setting more attractive would be the dumpsters from the businesses around us which is where they put them that sounds wonderful i can't wait food truck alley fuck no nope and then

a classic car show of course because you can't have one of these small town festivals without somebody pulling their 66 mustang up and showing it to you that's just how it works at my old car yep there it is and they also have the uh what is this here the The Labor Day Blues Barbecue. That's coming up on Monday. They have some singers here. The Wasted Potential Brass Band. That's what every band that is old men should be called. I just thought that was a great name there. If we don't know who you are, they are all called Wasted Potential.

$22 at the door for this. What? $22 quote22 at the door for this. What? $22, quote, donation at the door. Yeah, it's a donation that you have to do. That means no refunds. That's what that means. That means we're not leaving. Even if you leave, you can't have your money back.

Crime rate in this town, what we're interested in, property crime is about 20% high. So not nearly the highest we've seen by any stretch. The car guy must be very unlucky dude who has his car it must be that this one criminal's like the same fucking idiot keeps leaving his i take his shit he puts more shit in it and leaves the car unlocked again i just have to go in and take it again it leaves the door open with the dome light on you you know which car it is i think that seriously it's the same person stealing your shit over and over again and violent crime murder rape robbery and of course assault is also about 20 high so i mean not uh not the lowest not the

highest that we've seen at all so that said let us talk about horrible murders that happened here why not at least one that went nuts at least one of them here um anyway there's a few to talk about this is uh this is a really twisted case and this is one of those cases that are the whole thing the whole uh you know world of this area here this is one of those cases where you would think that you would know about this just as a true crime aficionado you'd be like oh yeah that guy i've heard of him you know like this killer and that killer but you haven't because of the time it happened and what was going on during that time it got pushed it's you know around the atlanta area in the early 80s which there were some other murders happening that were getting a little you know obviously more attention loads of them and

historically those are the ones that stuck because it was such a big media storm on that. So rightfully so, because those kids were disappearing left and right. So this, though, you'd think you'd have heard of, but you don't. So let's go back in time here. Tax Day, April 15th. What a day. Oh, boy. 1981 we're going to.

So back in time some shit. We're 40 years now on this. Damn. Yeah, James, I was 81 three months old look at you so you are you could be a suspect jimmy that's all i'm gonna say i mean i'm not gonna put it around you were technically here so yeah april 15th 1981 the wood creek apartments in clarkston okay is that the ones where they have fights but i was just gonna say that i am gonna i think that was the same ones wood creek because the other one was indian creek was the school they fought behind yeah so that is the difference it did say it didn't say an apartment complex i thought so hold on i swore it did let's see the indian

creek uh willow branch willow willow branch apartments they all that's creek willow branch it's all those fucking apartment complex names that make it sound yeah it's all code for for micah counters don't worry about it that's what it is it's all code for you know it's code for cheap toilet the carpet will be torn out in the next lease anyway that's it yeah it's all code for somebody jizzed on your shag before so anyway uh wood creek apartments in clarkston there is a woman named luis del santo who lives here and louise louise del santo she uh lives here with her brother they share an apartment together. Dario Del Santo is his name. And he came home one day and called for his sister and couldn't find her in the house. And so he went into the bathroom and he found her in there.

She was lying face down in the bathtub there. She's naked and not alive. so face down water it's just face down there's there's there's water in here okay um now there yeah no there's water definitely she's like kind of you know floating in the water here she the police come obviously he doesn't just leave that there and go prepare a frozen dinner he calls the cops and wait for her to wake up you know we've had we've had people that would do that that's why i have to say so he called the police because we've had people that are like well i guess jeopardy's on and then i'll get to that later so he called the police uh they come and obviously

they find that she is a victim of manual strangulation is what they find the cause of death to be. So this isn't like an accident. She didn't drown or OD or anything like that because he didn't touch her to see the marks. He left her face down and called the cops. He saw she wasn't alive and, you know, ran out of there. So they also find the presence of semen discovered in her both vaginal area and mouth area and in addition to that they find they recover pubic hair from the bath rug as well they have two hairs from the rug and they say that they're the pairs they found were sufficiently similar that they could

have had a common origin they're're from the same person, essentially. Keep in mind, 1981. Everybody had it. You can't. Otherwise, you could at least put the hair and the sperm together and see if that's the same person and go, okay, well, at least we know this is our guy. You know what I mean?

But they don't have that. They just have to go. Fingers crossed we find someone with that blood type and pubes that we can microscopically compare to see if they're similar which it's hard to compare those i've i read a thing what a job i read a thing of people in comparing hairs and it's pretty much it's pretty much just a complete crapshoot there is no i've seen it too where they way to take the picture and then try to it's like it's almost like what uh rifling but it lines up not near as perfect no it's it's literally anyone who's convicted on like those are similar hairs that's crazy because they're you can't you cannot do that it just doesn't work period you know they

said the certain it just doesn't work basically so anyway she's been strangled like we said manually strangled uh The hairs are together. That's April 15th, 1981. When they say manually, is that like bare hands? Hand, yeah, by hand. Bare fucking hands. Bare hands. Jesus.

That's rugged, man. Boy, oh boy. To use something to strangle someone is still brutal. That's still a lot. But to do it by hand is, you you got to be a cold son of a bitch that is personal that is really really personally it's really cold shit to do so everybody freaks the fuck out obviously about this um they lose their goddamn minds and uh people continue to lose their minds there and everyone in clarkston is afraid and then near clarkston kind of not near

but in the upper part of atlanta there where you know the uh kind of where clarkston would line up with atlanta in that area other things start to happen here and they don't get put together right away it takes a minute for things to get put together may 28th, there's a woman named Giselle Clardy, and she lives at the Cherry Hill Apartments on Buford Highway in Atlanta. She is the assistant manager of the Cherry Hill Apartments there. So, yeah, she's there for a reason. And on May 28th, 1981, Giselle leaves her office in the apartment complex to go post notices and to go inspect vacant apartments. She has to post notices that there's an exterminator coming in. So get all of your like, yeah, get your shit off the floor, your food shit off the out of the cabinets, the bottom cabinets and all that sort of stuff.

So we've all lived in apartments and gotten those notifications before. My favorite apartment notification is the day before it happens.'s be a thing off your water will be off for eight hours tomorrow you're like what the fuck are you fucking kidding me your water's gonna be off from seven to fucking four tomorrow and you're like what no i don't know can't you just go to work or something yeah it's sunday go somewhere like i used to that used to drive me fucking crazy like i don't care about this isn't my problem yeah why so um anyway she leaves her office to go do all of this and uh there's a guy named james buffington which is a cool name fuck yeah it is how you doing james buffington here he's a cartoon character yeah james buffington he hangs out with like the incredibles dad

his one of his pals is james buffington he he's an auto mechanic and he's working in the parking lot near one of the buildings on a car there i guess it's a house call mechanic which is for his own awesome yeah or his own mechanic always drives a giant piece of shit yeah well yeah he can work on it it's practice for him. Yeah. Or it's because he doesn't want to do that shit when he gets home. One of the two, yeah. This is a parking lot near Building U in the Cherry Hill Apartments here.

He says he saw Giselle drive into the parking lot shortly after 4 p.m. He said behind her, trailing closely behind her, was a car with two men inside, is what he said. He said both cars parked, and the passenger got out and talked briefly with Giselle, and they both walked out of sight toward Building U. walk out of sight and didn't see anybody again for about 10 or 15 minutes later until about 10 or 15 minutes later when he saw this man uh run back to the car get in and then the car pulled away okay so that's what suspicious at all not suspicious at all clearly you know you walk on you walk in and run out that's that's always suspicious any walk right there's no activity one gets out and walks in and then runs out and then they gun it that's that always looks bad running in always just that just looks like you're late for something

but running out looks like you're escaping from something that you did and you want to distance yourself from especially if you walked in casually you just you are the problem you just did some calm shit and then right and then hastily got away yeah so he doesn't think anything of it i mean he doesn't not his fucking business what people talk about or whatever it's just something he happened to notice while he was doing this work now the next day giselle doesn't report for work she's doesn't report at all and so they can't um they can't find her they look for her everywhere her car is at the complex, but she's not anywhere to be found. They go everywhere.

Finally, they go into apartment 1U, and they find her there. Unfortunately, she's not there by choice. They find her lying face down in the bathtub in about four inches of water. She is naked except for a blouse that she's wearing so she has a top on uh they find that the cause of death is manual strangulation yeah as well they do not find any seminal fluid or sperm or anything like that uh during the autopsy but they do find bruises. And contusions. And other injuries to the vaginal area.

That indicate that she had been raped at some point. Before this. So yeah. It's the same exact thing. Except there's no semen this time. That's the only difference otherwise. And they didn't find any hairs. But manual strangulation as well.

So yeah. This is fucking wild. and they didn't find any hairs but manual strangulation as well so um yeah this is uh this is fucking wild so the only real thing they have to go on here is mr buffington right because he's the only guy who said he saw things and uh he said that he spent he was working on a customer's car outside of building you and he said he you know saw everything he said he uh didn't he didn't know anything until they said well when did you find out that she was murdered and he said not till the next day the day after he said i saw a large number of police and firemen in the parking lot outside building you he said he gave his business card to one of the policemen and told the policemen that he'd been in the parking lot most of the previous day so if you had any questions maybe

i know something i don't know you know maybe i know something that would be interesting to you that i don't know is interesting basically here's my card officer your car has a tick i can hear that i can by the way yeah bring that in uh let me ask you when you when you pop it into drive is it like a hesitation before you bring it in bring it in that's a common problem with that stop your brakes are bad it's uh could be brake dust i'm not saying we need new pads or nothing, but bring a pie. Let's check it out. I don't want to have you out there unsafe. This is very helpful, number one.

And it's so weird because it's so fucked up in our society that when someone is a genuine witness that sees something, we're immediately super suspicious of them because they were the one who saw it. They were the only one there. And on top of that, if they're willing to talk about it, that's they always say, like, how can you tell if a guy is actually guilty? It doesn't doesn't tell you anything. Tells you too much.

Inserts himself into the. It's literally what it is. If you go through interrogation thing and what is this look makes too much eye contact doesn't make eye contact at all does this too much does that not enough it's like anything you do can be interpreted so that's what this is a real goldilocks situation it is and that's what this that's what this is that's what i feel like is going on with when you have a witness it's like in serial the hayman lee situation the guy that found hayman lee his life is destroyed that guy's they fucking yeah they brought it out that he was like a flasher at one

point in his life they just they destroyed him to make sure that he wasn't the one who killed her dumped her there and then was like hey i found this body while i was peeing right so it's not a good thing to find to be the the witness or the finder of things. The utility worker who found Kaylee Anthony, his life was destroyed. It happens all the time. I mean, Jesus Christ. Or it could be worse. You could be too close of a witness and end up being Ron Goldman.

It was like, hey, I got those. Oh, what the fuck? Hey, are you OJ? Hey, what the fuck, man? Boy, does my throat hurt. Hey, cool, OJ. Ah, like that's fucking crazy yeah you know because that would be a weird emotion to have a celebrity kill you that you

don't know because you'd be like oh shit it's so and so what the fuck because at first you'd be like kind of like hey cool ah yeah it's nordberg dude i love naked gun yeah that's brutal man so anyway the uh the calb county police interview Buffington later that day. And like we said, he described what we said. He saw two men, one guy run in or one guy walk. The other guy, you know, he came back running, gets in the car, they take off. So he went to the police station also for further interviews and to later on view photographic arrays of possible suspects. And, you know, basically they'll have anybody who they have in their system who is a convicted,

any kind of sex pervert of any kind convicted. And they line all those people up six at a time. And they go, was it any of these people? How about these people? They have them look through literal mugshot books. Here's our pervert book. There you go. This is a book that's pretty frequent before. There you go. This is a book that do this pretty frequent

before you find the guy that this is his first time. This is a giant photo album of the worst people we have in this county. Here you go. Enjoy. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle

in theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly.

And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes.

You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus and the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two

as it airs on Max starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. That's a terrible photo album. Yeah. Oh, it's a bad, it's an awful yearbook. Let's take you through the sex offender database, pal.

Sit down. Oh, God, I don't want to. I don't want to do this. He signs his statement at 8.45 p.m. May 29th, and he contained in this a description of a number of cars that had been seen in the apartment parking lot on May 28th. That's the best guy to have do that. Well, yeah, he actually knows what cars they are.

Yeah, he knows the gear and everything. I don't know. It looked like maybe it was like a sports car, and it's like a Toyota Corolla that has a spoiler on it. You know what I mean? People can't identify people and cars. They're terrible at it. They've done experiments where they show people the same car,

and it's like a regular car, and it's everything from I think it was a Volkswagen Bug to I think it was a Ferrari. Literally, like that's from just a regular car. It's so fucked up. From Herbie to the Mystery Machine. And it's like, what are you doing with yourself? What are you talking about? So here, though, a mechanic knows something a little bit more than that.

He says, I vaguely remember a car coming, vehicle number seven, because he described a bunch of different vehicles. So he was saying the seventh vehicle, about 3.30 to 4 p.m., he said, but nothing specific he doesn't remember about it. So his second signed statement, which he gave them shortly after midnight on the morning of May 30th.

So he was just at the police station all night on the 29th. So he saw all the cops, gave him the business card, and then from the late afternoon all the way till midnight, he's at the station giving his statements. And I'm sure they're making sure that his statements are consistent to make sure that he's not the murderer. So you're going to keep, you know, they don't know. So you're going to keep, you know, they don't know. So he described at that point, he described a meeting around 4 or 4.30 on May 28th between a man and a woman in the parking lot.

Okay. So he says, quote, the woman, a lady as a neat, dressed as a neat businesswoman, he said. So business, you know, business business attire business skirt type deal like like a like a uh uh apartment complex manager you know like someone who would show an apartment complex yeah um as you said he was a pro she was approached by a white male about 30 years old who had arrived in the parking lot in a small white car probably a convertible okay which was driven by another white male of approximately the same age this is a just his detailed description the man and the woman walked around a corner together shortly thereafter the man he said he wasn't running hard he was like

jogging trotting back which if you have somebody waiting for you for 10 minutes that makes sense too that you would trot back like hey sorry man i had to i got caught up an extra minute i would do that yeah i wouldn't just casually like if you especially if this person could see you like an apartment complex sidewalk they're sitting in the car they've been waiting in the car for 15 fucking minutes in may in uh in atlanta where it's probably warm and you've been gone you're not going to casually stroll back to the car you're going to fucking jog back otherwise i'm leaving your ass there you better jog or i'm fucking hitting reverse here quick and then you're going to start running i mean what was it seven seconds quicker you know what i mean still the shit it's got no fuck that that's like being in a crosswalk when you don't

have the right away when the car is the right away and you don't fucking you don't give like that little shuffle jog thing give me that shuffle motherfucker i have a deadly weapon pointed at you if i had a gun pointed to your head would you fucking act casual about it no well this is worse i have a three thousand pound car pointed at you you want an apologetic skip i want to skip yeah sorry thank you for not killing me that's all thank you for not taking i don't know a pound and a half of pressure with your toe and applying it to murder my obliterate my entire life because that's how easy it would be for you to do you can went like that just with your toe not even a finger all right and then kill this guy fuck you skip motherfucker anyway he he does this he trots

around the corner jumps in the passenger seat of the car, was driven away. So he said after returning to the Cherry Hill apartments with a police officer during the day on May 30th, he again described the day's events the day before. And a police officer made notes of his observation of the conversation with Buffington. He said, but Buffington uh didn't adopt the note he didn't sign the notes like yes this is what i said just the cop wrote down what he was saying when they were there so statements the other two statements he made at the police station he signed them here the cop just was writing shit down as he was showing stuff yeah the first page of the note the page that uh contained his detailed description of the man who was talking to the woman ends up being lost at some point in this whole thing, by the way.

They lose the police notes at some point. So that's also bad. Come on, guys. That's also bad. The second page of notes describing Buffington's conversation during the day uh contains a description of the clothes worn by the man who you know would talk to the woman it describes a description of the man as quote close to buffington's height with large wrists and muscled forearms you're that close to him how large must your wrists and muscly must your forearms be for someone to notice that shit from across the parking lot?

For that to be the first thing you notice about a person, first you look at someone's head and register that. You don't first look at forearms. They have to be distractingly huge. Right. They got to grab your attention. Holy shit. Look at the wrists on that guy. Have you ever said that about anybody?

No. I don't't in an apartment god no weird said he had light colored hair on his arms wow light colored hair on his arms so didn't he was so close to this that's really close he should have been able what cologne was he wearing you're that close you should have been able to smell him and uh light hair visible on on his chest also in a v he was wearing a V-cut shirt. So he's got a V-neck on with light chest hair. Very 1981.

And giant wrists and forearms, apparently. So he, Buffington, agrees to undergo hypnosis in an attempt to clear up some of the details that are lacking in his description of the events. Unlock some more. Let's go. There's some stuff missing, and they're like, let's fill in some gaps here. So a DeKalb County investigator gets, there's a motion later on to suppress all this shit, but either way, he suggests hypnosis and remembering possibly the tag number of the car. They're like, you saw the tag number. It's in your brain somewhere.

You know, I mean, if your brain was a video camera and you can rewind it, you'd see the tag number. But to pull it out of there. You just need some mushrooms and somebody to. That's all. You just need some peyote in a desert and we're going to work this shit out. Jesus. Some peyote, a desert, the desert and a Doors album. And we're just peyote a desert the desert and the doors album and we're just going to have a good time for a while here see what happens play some shit backward

here we go so apparently yeah they suggested hypnosis might uh it was an attempt to quote give every bit of information that he could possibly recall from what had been seen. And so Buffington said that he had faith in the hypnosis procedure. And, you know, he also says at this point, we'll say later on, he feels he's a suspect at this point as well. So he feels like if he if he doesn't do the things that he wants them to they want him to do, he feels like that's going to make himself look more suspicious. So I find the weed in his glove box. Yeah. He's like, I'll just go ahead and do the hypnosis before you charge me with murder.

So he ends up doing that. Apparently, beyond the description of this V-necked, large-wristed and muscular forearmed man, they don't have any leads on anything. But they do have a good memory of the time that a male babysitter watched Mr. Buffington, and Mr. Buffington didn't have a nice afternoon apparently not they have that they have that from the time he was seven years old he's like i smell animal crackers and they're like this is great they're covered in

jizz and then he just starts weeping that's it so a dr rash, a psychologist in private practice, he hypnotizes Buffington on June 4th, 1981. A police officer is also present at the session, but he doesn't participate. Buffington and the police officer basically get kind of nothing more, just very slight amount of detail added to the details of the car, but nothing more. Like, you you know there's a racing stripe well that's great so does everything else 10w30 in it i could smell it that's it so the uh they made an audio tape of the session but later on it was inaudible anyway so they didn't record it right either this is come on guys come on everybody you're losing notes you can't make a fucking tape i get it's 1981 but what'd you do

would you put it under your shirt would you put it in a closet colkin could operate that thing what do you do like it's a just press fucking record what are we talking about you can't make an audio tape at the police station two buttons down at the same time that's it well they knew how to do that apparently that was just inaudible so they recorded something it was just inaudible. So they recorded something. It was just... Just mic'd it bad. They mic'd it bad. Who knows what the fuck they did. I have no idea. Oh, God. So now there are break-ins at this other apartment complex.

Cherry Hill? No, this is another apartment complex we're going to talk about. The Windermere Apartments. My God, it's all apartments. Yeah, tons of apartments. Windermere Apartments in Atlanta here in March. This is this happened in March of 1981. So before the other two things we talked about, Margaret Finnerty, she's a woman who lived at the Windermere apartments.

And on March 3rd, 1981, a man claiming to be a maintenance man knocked on her door and asked to be let in so he could check on her water she opened the door and he attacked her choked her with a handkerchief or a bandana until she passed out okay um now she when she awoken she awoke she left she looked around the only thing that had been taken from the apartment was a world war two bayonet. That's it. Like a, yeah, the knife.

Yeah. A big memorabilia of world war two, a world war two era bayonet was the only thing taken from the whole house. No money taken, no jewelry taken, just a bayonet, which is bizarre, man.

Pretty strange. Yeah. Break in and didn't assault her either. That's the other thing besides the choking, didn't sexually assault her. Didn't, didn't, yeah, didn't like her either. That's the other thing besides the choking. Didn't sexually assault her. Didn't didn't. Yeah, I didn't like shit in the living room floor or anything. Any weird shit like that.

You never know. People do weird shit. So on March 16th, this is, you know, 13 days later, 1981, a man in a tan uniform wearing black gloves and carrying a flower box under his arm rang the doorbell to a woman named constance harold's home and uh she opened the door and he said uh i have a delivery for mrs robinson which is not not her she's constance harold and uh she before she had a chance to answer that i'm not mrs robinson you have the wrong apartment he tried to force the door open and get his way in there she managed to close the door quickly and run out the back of the apartment and go to a neighbor's apartment and call the police so god i have so much anxiety she managed to get out of it the flower his uniform for his flower delivery in the first place he's got a fucking

uniform though think about that like he was like he went to a costume shop or something like this is that's crazy this isn't just like some dude was walking by and he's like i'll try to get in that apartment and say i need to use the phone like he he thought about this yesterday at least and they have the flower box the flower box was slammed in the door because he tried to like stick himself in the door and she apparently just in time got it and it got stuck in the door because, you know, if there's any sort of force, there's no flowers in it. It's just an empty box. Bastard. He got himself an empty flower box in a tan uniform. This person was knocking on people's doors.

That's scary. That's that's like a lot of like people alone in their homes worst fucking nightmare of somebody like that someone who looks very legitimate who you'd be like oh this person's lost or something and you'd open the door that's that's frightening advertisement for ring doorbells ever no shit just leave it out there i'm good uh so she had to uh or simply say, for that matter, Harold, she managed to close the door and run away. And when the police arrived, they found not only the flower box caught in the door with no flowers inside. They also discovered a coil of rope lying on her porch. There was a there was rope out there.

Oh, my God. So that was apparently what was in the flower box because when it got smashed in the door, it fell out. It fell out. He took off because he was like, oh, shit, she's definitely going to call the cops. Yeah. Took off. So he had a fucking rope in there. That's horrible.

This is absolutely fucking horrifying here. So a man who jogged in the area fits the description given by Mrs. Harold. So it's a jogger based on get yourself a goddamn. Well, you're going to want treadmill even more when you hear this shit. Peloton stock is going to go through the roof. If people knew this story based upon her identification of the man, he's arrested and is later released when she decides that she that wasn't the guy later on she goes you know what i was thinking about it he's not the guy he's just a similar

looking guy but that's not the same guy face a lot so you know and that's another thing that our brains do is they fill in and for your brain wants put it this way you ever back in the day like 15 years ago when you download files, remember like you'd get a file and there'd be like pieces missing from it, but like a player would try to make it work? That's what your brain does. It tries to piece those things together. So your brain, if that, your brain will connect it to a face you've seen before and go, that's

the face I see, just because it wants wants to it wants to make sense of things so uh that's what she does but she's in a vague situation obviously in in very sure situations yeah if they have to if you have to sit down with a hypnotist that's when that's gonna happen if she had had dinner with the guy it would have been different but if you just saw a guy jogging to where his face is just sort of in the back of your memory similar yeah it's that's brutal man that's tough so she ended up though coming to the police and saying i don't think it was him i no more i think about it she did i don't think it was him oh yeah i mean she doesn't want the wrong guy in jail apparently so he uh they release him after that this poor bastard imagine that you're just a jogger i'm never jogging again ever no never i'm never going

out anywhere after this thing anyway so brooks all those shoes yeah jerks you got me arrested so june 5th 1981 uh meredith nelson sees a man in the hallway near her apartment at the windermere apartments again so this is a couple months So this is a couple months later. This is a few months later. This is happening because March was the original Windermere apartment break-ins and she stopped to check her mail and this man stopped, turned to her and said, quote, I just thought I'd let you know I was in your apartment earlier today. I was working on your pipes.

Yeah. But how the fuck would some maintenance guy that she doesn't even know know what apartment she lives in and connect? That's really weird. So she was a little freaked out by that. It wasn't like a regular apartment complex maintenance guy or anything like that. It was somebody she'd never seen before. So that's a little bit strange. And then June 15th, 1981.

So this is right after that, 10 days later. A woman named Patricia Berry lives here in these apartments. And she has a roommate named Julie Yao. Y-O-W-E. Yao, I guess that would be. Yao. Now, Julie Yao comes home, walks in the door of the apartment. And she said she knew immediately that something

was wrong in her apartment. She gets there about 7 p.m. She said she saw her roommate, Patricia, she saw her car in the parking lot, and she said, quote, I thought it was strange because she had to be at work at 4 p.m., she said. So why is she here at 7? That's odd. She shouldn't be here. p.m. she said so why is she here at 7 that's odd she shouldn't be here she said quote I unlocked the door some lights were on I stepped into the apartment and saw her shoes kicked off in the hallway yeah I got scared it's not normal she said she called her boyfriend from a neighbor's telephone she left she left she took off she saw that and was like oh shit I'm out of here I don't give a fuck if she's in trouble I'm out like I don't care if she's not in trouble i don't want to be around her she didn't like go to the kitchen and get a knife and go inspect is what i'm getting at she was just like fuck this

i'm out like smart go get out call the cops just a pair of shoes out of place right uh-oh and she ran away and called her boyfriend to another place that's really that's really like she could just not feel good or something or room you don't know maybe she threw up or who the hell knows yeah she's just not at work and we found shoes in the wrong place yeah i'm running panicked i'm running to the neighbor's house calling my boyfriend yeah so once the boyfriend gets over there uh with her he joins her and now she's you know ready to go search she says quote my boyfriend went back into the back uh back into her bedroom and said she wasn't there okay like oh all right well shit

why is her car here and her shoes are off he said quote uh then she said quote i said look in the bathroom he looked in my bathroom and found her um yeah she was strangled with her own hair ribbon oh no yeah her own hair ribbon um she has not been raped no rape in this case at all but she is face down in the bathtub same amount of water uh half naked strangled you know tops but no bottoms she's wearing, strangled but no sign of sexual assault at all here. What a weird choice. There's got to be something with the tub, right? Something. I don't know what it is.

There's something. There's a hang up there because that's fucking weird to do that. The only thing I can think of is if you strangle somebody, and this is a weird thought to have, but if you strangle somebody, a lot of weird thought to have but if you strangle somebody a lot of times if someone's not very very experienced at murder if they'll strangle somebody think they're dead walk away and then two minutes later they're alive still and they're like oh shit that there's been so many cases where someone thought they strangled someone to death and didn't get the job done they just passed out so i would assume if you strangle somebody

till they pass out and you think they're dead if you put them face down in water in a bathtub that makes sure they're dead because if they're breathing they'll breathe that in and they'll either they'll either breathe in water and drown or else it'll wake them up and they'll flip flip out of it then you know they're alive so i think that's a way of testing their aliveness that seems to be more effective than a pulse that's my that's my thought on it yeah i'm really kind of i'm really kind of disturbed that i had that thought but it's it feels it feels like there's that there's there has to be a reason for the tub to be involved this much it has to be that if it wasn't face down then i'd be like what the fuck but the fact that they're face down it has to be that that's the only that's the only thing or it's some weird fetish i don't know thing with a tub

not sure or maybe he thinks too that that'll like washed away his this is 81 too we don't know a lot about science so you know in terms of criminal investigation and bodily fluids and things we're not that every show on tv isn't about crime scene investigation so we don't exactly know all of the uh sperm facts and uh how well your jizz retains in something it took a while when did that when did that even become a thing i mean it was late 80s already but yeah late 80s early 90s late 80s is like when you could like you know the state would have like one lab and you could send something away if it was really important and it would take six months before it came back but if you know if it was the only thing you had it became the 90s before it became really

prevalent and like even during the oj trial in the mid 90s the number one thing was uh marcia clark was talking about all the d DNA we have and the main the district attorney said fuck DNA these people aren't going to fucking understand what that is no one knows what that is we know what that is because we've sat down and gone to conferences about it normal people at home have no fucking idea what DNA is they might have heard it on

the news but they don't know all the details you can explain science to a bunch of people who are stuck here trapped here for fucking six months. They don't care. Why would they? So, yeah, it's bad here. So now she is found, like we said, all that.

That was June 15th. Now, Johnny Gann is a man in the apartment complex. He volunteers with the police here to give a description of a man he saw in the area of the apartment near the time of the murder which is really hard because it's an apartment complex so many people come and go visitors deliveries yeah and people got to walk past your apartment to get to other apartments exactly who fucking knows it's so hard to tell that but she gives a description of a man now the crazy the crazy part is, do you remember 10 days earlier, the attack with the guy, or not the attack, the guy who said, I just thought I'd let you know I was working on your pipes?

Yeah, all right. That was in Meredith Nelson's apartment, which is directly across the hall from Patricia Berry. Their doors are lined up across the hall from each other so he went in that apartment and said i was working on your pipes somebody and then 10 days later directly across the hall this happens boy oh boy so that's that's kind of interesting here uh or just really really weird um she uh uh the cause of death like we said again here is strangulation but this is with the hair ribbon he said he saw a man sneaking around the corner this is the johnny gan guy saw a man sneaking around the corner of the apartments about 2 15 on june 15th the man in the afternoon yeah

he said that the guy was about 6 1 or 6 2'2 with blondish hair, had a good tan. He looked very strong. Didn't mention large wrists or muscular forearms by name, but very strong. And he's a new detail. He's wearing a gold medallion around his neck now. Oh. The guy is like he's swinging. He's coming right from the club.

He went to the club last night. He woke up about two and then went right out to murder. That's how it works. Sounds like Johnny Gann wishes he got his phone number. Right? He was a blonde. The tan on him. He had a golden tan.

So muscular. His locks. Well, the breeze was blowing in his locks. They just came off his cheeks enough to show just what a sexy man he was and what what a chiseled jawbone he had in addition to that the tan the strength and then the gold medallion i like him a little style and a little pizzazz too i'm not gonna lie so being honest he snuck around the corner real mysterious i like mysterious i uh i didn't notice much about him because i was too busy gazing in one certain area if you know what i mean fellas while rubbing another do you know

baby so based on his description the police develop a composite drawing of the man in the description and the atlanta news media publishes the composite and on the newspapers it's on television here it is motherfuckers i mean it out there, this composite. So a month later, finally, now, July 16th, 1981, they have a suspect. They have a man they want to talk to, and they do talk to him. He is described to the newspapers as a, quote, very unstable man accused of rape and murder here. And they want to question him about one of the murders in particular but then they're going to talk to him about the other two as well because they think they're pretty sure all three of these murders are connected same exact feels like it yeah yeah

there's a minor details but the the strangulation face down in the bathtub is the same and that's the important part you know what i mean like the way they're outside it's mad too it's too similar yeah it's the fact it's the the amount of water in the tubs it's all it's the same guy you know it's pretty fucking obvious like you waited a specific time to let the water run yes as a matter of fact they're when they released the sketch that is a sketch of the quote bathtub strangler because that's what they're calling him they gave him a nickname so they're saying it's every day the police on the hunt for the bathtub strangler, the bathtub strangler. And people are every fucking woman in an apartment is scared shitless, rightfully so.

Sure. Pop up at any time and rape and strangle you. This is disturbing shit. Drown you in your bathtub after he strangles you. So somebody called police after this, all of this, seeing all this bathtub strangler stuff. And they called police and said, I recognize that composite sketch as somebody I know. So they go and talk to this man and they want to sit him down and talk to him. They also place this guy in a lineup in an attempt to connect him with the two other murders.

in an attempt to connect him with the two other murders. And so police end up, they're kind of withholding this guy's picture because they don't want to contaminate future lineups, basically. Because if they release his picture, then you've seen him. The man they have found is 32-year-old James Samuel Walraven. It's like a Walmart Raven, it sounds like, or a Walgreens. Like having ravens, but hate those brand-name raven wall wall it's like a walmart raven it sounds like or a wall greens like like having ravens but hate those brand name raven prices try wall raven right like those brand name raven prices getting you down try wall raven same great raven at the generic price yeah same raven goodness so james samuel samuel

wall raven and it's wal fucking raven right he uh 32 years old they are ready to charge him with the strangulation of giselle cardi that's the one they're going to charge him with first. Yes, that's the May 29th murder. Now, police do say that they tell even the press there's a lot of, quote, loose ends that need to be tied up before they can do anything else. In-bouts and what have you. Yes. Yeah. And they also are going to charge him with attempted burglary of an Atlanta home on May

16th, 1981 that they know of. They've got him for that, too. Linked him to a different thing, just a burglary. And they think that's the one, obviously, near there. So who the fuck is this guy, 32-year-old wall raven here? Well, let's ask, you know, who would you ask

if you wanted to know somebody, who are they from the start? Who would know them best to ask? Who would you ask? Their mom? Their mom. Of course. You'd ask their mom.

Obviously. What a guess, right? My mom wouldn't know shit about me. No. Yeah. My mom would know some stuff, but not of recent anything. She wouldn't know. Fuck.

She'd know some stuff. She says, this is Mrs. Wallraven. She says, quote, he has been an exemplary boy never any problems an exemplary exemplary boy that's nice he's 32 never any problems ma he's an adult very much so uh that's what my mom would say he's been an exemplary boy never any problems what is he 12 13 mom i'm 40 he always received an a in conduct in school i didn't know they gave grades for conduct they usually just tell you if your kid's an asshole or not hey by the way your kid's a disruptive twat can you fix that or seems like a nice kid uh but i guess maybe you get grades in the 60s they graded that yeah he's born in 49 so that might have been in the 60s. They graded that.

Yeah, he's born in 49. So that might have been in the 50s. She said, quote, He never had any serious argument with his sister or me. Okay. Now, he definitely had no arguments with his sister. We'll talk about that later. Yeah. He says she also says that her son has had problems when he was a kid.

The only one he had problems with was his father because his father was an abusive alcoholic so exemplary boy never even raised his voice to me or his sister but he said that his father was she said his father was an abusive alcoholic she said quote he was embarrassed and abused by him he would knock him down him, and throw objects at him. He would do the same to me and his sister. So the dad would just terrorize the whole house, it sounds like. He'd come in, kick people down, throw shit at them, yell, scream, everybody. Wife, daughter, son, just doesn't give a shit, which is a disturbing way to grow up here. Indiscriminate punches thrown everywhere. A disturbing way to grow up here. Indiscriminate punches thrown everywhere. Whoever, at any time, for whatever reason.

Wall Raven's mother also says that it took her 12 years to obtain a divorce from her husband. Why? I guess he didn't want to give it to her. And back then it was harder to get a divorce. It just was. Quote, my children requested a divorce many years before I could get one. Can you please leave, Dad? It's rare that children want their parents to divorce. That's not normal.

Even when they're abusive, they still want them to stay together and maybe we can figure it out. That's how you think when you're a kid. You don't know any better. So you think that is never like Jesus. Just end it, Ma. Come on. You got to be a special asshole for your kids to be like, can we all leave? Can we just let's just all share

a one-bedroom apartment we don't care what happens to him fuck him so they uh she said that her son was withdrawn even at an early age which is why he was such an exemplary nice boy because he was withdrawn she said um his quote emotional problems showed up during his junior year in high school. That's when he started getting a little having some issues here. So he said that once he got into his 20s, he had a lot of trouble starting relationships with women. Couldn't couldn't ever get him started. And we'll find out that he definitely had a lot of trouble getting him started. And he likes he tries to date women in their early 20s, which he's 32. So that's just I don't know.

He's just also it's probably where he wishes he was. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think he's definitely got some stunted issues here. There's some. Yeah, there's some mental health there.

I'm sure of it. Well, he he does. He has some mental issues. He's been on medication from time to time. well he had he does he has some mental issues he's been on medication from time to time um he you know has had some a stint here and there in a hospital for a minute and then a little medication and then he's okay and that sort of stuff he was arrested in june of 1980 so he's arrested a year before this on charges of threatening to kill his friend um a guy named jeff campbell so it was a guy.

He didn't say, I'm going to kill you and strangle you and rape you and put you in a bathtub. So that doesn't really relate to this so much. He served 30 days in jail for this incident. So he must have really been he must have had like means and a way to do it. This Campbell said that he had a history of mental issues. Generally. He says, quote,

he was very up and down sort of person, very moody, very unstable. He said that. Yeah, it's hot and cold. He said, wall Raven told him that he'd been in and out of mental institutions over the

years and that medication cumulatively had quote affected his personality. Cool. Got to go. Thanks. This is great. So let's go out drinking. Well, you have a few more beers and we'll see what that does to unstabilize everything, to just destabilize your entire fucking brain chemistry.

What do you say? Let's take some chances. Would you do me a solid and just swim back to shore? Hey, I'm a gambler. You know what? Let's roll those dice. And not saying you should fucking push your friends off of boats if they have personalities. But if the guy threatens to kill you and then he's like, all the pills have affected my personality, you might be worried about your safety because he threatened to kill him.

That's the main problem. So help your friends if they got fucking problems help your friends but if you don't know a guy very well he's threatening to kill you that's a guy to stay the fuck away from if he's doing this shit surround yourself with good people that's all and and people that are not willing to open you exactly that's a that's a good point or strangle you so uh wall, late in 1980, had moved from an apartment complex next to the Toco Hills, or moved to an apartment complex, or I'm sorry, moved away from this apartment complex next to the Toco Hills Shopping Center in Northeast Atlanta.

Now, the problem here, and the thing that connects these, is he lived there. Now, the problem here and the thing that connects these is he lived there. Police say all three of these victims have visited the vicinity of that shopping center the days they were killed. Each one of them. And that's where he was. So that's an issue. That's why another thing they're saying, they're trying to connect him that way now i'm interested in the sketch artist that put this together because everybody was the reason they found this guy was someone called about a you know relation to a

sketch that somebody had that it looked like someone bob ross the shit out of him and it looked great looked wonderful so uh the georgia bureau of investigation they had this lady she's a 60 year old woman and she is their their person uh here her name is marla lawson and uh she says that uh jesus christ she says she used to work at subway and uh made sandwiches you know this sandwich artist shit is not for me i am i'm a much better artist i'm to draw people. But the problem is every one of her sketches, the guy's eating like a six-inch turkey, which is super weird. They're like, yeah, that was him, but he didn't have a sandwich in her hand. She's like, I just, that's how I learned.

So she said she got a quote, I made a D in art. So she said she wasn't a very good artist. Just because she wasn't using the right paints james so now she does these in mustard and mayo and they come out great amazing if you put relish on it she said text her the spokesman for the georgia bureau of investigation uh investigation said she makes people feel comfortable the individual comes through in her sketches it's like the person sat down and posed for her. Okay. Now, one of the people that she, quote, caught with her sketches was the Olympic bomber who wasn't really the Olympic.

Oh, no. Her sketches might be really good pictures of people, but maybe not of the person that the person's describing. Just a wonderful picture. I don't know. But it's just beautiful. It's just beautiful. It's just not the right guy. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid.

We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people, with a touch

of humor, I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great, a dash of sarcasm, and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing, this mother****er lied, like a liar, like a liar, and if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

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or on Apple Podcasts. Yeah, that's all there is. So she said she was drawing, she was doing 300 sketches a year and got burnt out on it, basically. So she said she was also filling in as a crime scene technician and a fingerprint analyst as well. So she was just doing too much. She said, quote, I was burnt out. I was smoking three packs a day. I didn't even know who I was.

Three packs a day. You didn't know who you were? Your throat would be so sore. You'd just be like, ah, please, water something. It's not that you don't know who you are. It's that you can't understand your own voice anymore. Oh, Christ. You can't see yourself in the mirror because there's a cloud of smoke around you like pig pen.

That's why. What is that? Fuck, man. What is that? There's all this haze. It's very hazy. She said retirement, though, didn't agree with her and her husband she said her husband insisted she returned to work i don't know if she's a pain in the ass or what but

fuck out of this house yeah she said quote so i became a sandwich artist at subway and then uh she the problem is she got a suspicious looking couple came into the store she said quote i knew we were about to get robbed but the man and woman were scared off by a bunch of customers that came in a big group so she said that night i went home and drew them she said it felt good to draw again the following day the store next to the subway was robbed and uh she showed the sketch to the people who worked in the in the store and they were like that's the fucking guy holy shit those that's the couple that's exactly who did it so she ended up giving that sketch to the police and they ended up catching the people based on

so she said all right fuck it i'll go back to doing it again so she got a job with the georgia bureau of investigation and started doing all this shit. So now about the other break-ins that happened, they talked to the victims of those. First, that Constance Harold, she said that, quote, even before he made his move, I knew there was something wrong. There was some there was a very intense look in his eyes. And I let out a loud, guttural scream. Jesus, what if he was just good god what if he's just passionate about flowers what if he just had like a burp stuck and he's like hold on a second oh sorry about that i had that was a painful one right in my esophagus like can you imagine that

there's just some other delivery man there and it's the wrong house i I've got your grub hub. And she's like, sorry, a couple of letters. And you're just screaming at him. My bad. Yeah. She identifies wall Raven as the man who on March 16th dressed in the uniform and black gloves with the flower box under his arm. She identifies him. And that's the guy quote lunged at the door with his arms.

That's how the flower box got stuck in there. And that's when she flower box got stuck in there and that's when she escaped through the back she went out the back door through the woods into the first house she saw where she saw cars parked in the driveway she ran into the fucking woods which is not where you run when you're running away from someone you think is trying to kill you that's the place they want to kill you right they're like great i was gonna drag her there now i don't have to she's gonna run to it fuck it was gonna be heavy to drag her there. Now I don't have to. She's going to run to it? Fuck. It was going to be heavy to carry her over her unconscious body out there.

Now it's easy. I could just bury her wherever. Run straight to the grave I just dug. Yeah, so maybe she'll fall in it, and that'd be even easier. I can go over and just kill her and cover her up. I don't know. She's running over the river and through the woods. Go on. Fuck.

She pointed out, as she pointed out, Wallra Raven, the other one here, Margaret Finnerty, she said, quote, I will never forget his eyes. They were scary and fiery. He was definitely the man. There's no doubt whatsoever in my mind. Yeah. So there's that. Now, Connie Harold, like we said, Constance, who was attacked in her home, she picked him out of a photographic

array that they had for her and then picked him out of a lineup as well. On July 14th, 1981, Buffington, remember our man Buffster here, the forearm connoisseur himself here. See, look what we've done to him already.

We just pictured this guy just fucking thirsty for forearms, just sitting here like, ooh, there's a sexy forearms on that guy. Wandering through the mall just looking at forearms. Yeah, this poor guy. He's just working on a car, for Christ's sake. What's creepier, the guy with a mirror taped to his shoe looking up dresses, or this guy looking at your fucking forearms?

Yeah, I don't know why. At least I understand wanting to see a vagina. I don't understand being like, like, look at them forearms. Yeah. Wrap my head around Buffington's fucking. If I give you 50 bucks, will you just hold out your forearm and let me jizz on it? Just 50 bucks. I'll give you, I got like a towel to you.

I might not even get it on it. I'm standing pretty far back, but I can see how hot they are. Let me try at least. They're pretty hot. standing pretty far back but i can see how hot they are let me try at least they're pretty hot so uh buffington picked him out of a lineup a photographic array he said that is the man that he saw with uh giselle clardy on the day of the murder and he picked him out of a lineup as well he also said that he saw the composite and that he had not found it to be an accurate portrait of the man who was with Mrs. Clardy. That's the guy

that Gan guy. He had the composite made. He said that's not the same guy. He described the meeting between them in the parking lot and all that sort of shit. Now, Johnny Gan, they get him in front of the Wall Raven lineup and he says that he's 70 to 80

percent sure that Wall Raven is the guy he saw which is throw that out the fucking window 110 percent worthless that's what that is so you're 70 to 80 percent completely wasting my time terrific get the fuck out of here go 20 to 30 percent no fuck you leave fuck you i mean he was a dude so he had like a hair and like legs and stuff i don't know certainly a man certainly him but not everyone ids him though that's the other thing uh martha della garza who lives at the cherry hill apartments where giselle clardy had worked about a week before giselle was killed. Martha was followed home by a strange man in a telephone van. When she turned her left into her apartment complex,

he passed her, made a U-turn and followed her all the way to building you, which is where she was found Giselle, where she lived. She said he was a large, muscular looking man with straw colored hair. Sounds familiar. She, but she said it was not James Walraven.

How many fucking creeps are in this area? How many blonde creeps? How many fucking creeps are walking around in this area, in these apartment complexes? I am terrified. And they're all big dudes. They're all big, muscular blonde men. How many fucking Dolph Lundgrens are walking around this goddamn joint?

What is happening? Wow. It's all Atlanta is a bunch of he men walking around. What's going on here? So now on the afternoon of March 16th, that's the day Constance Harold was attacked or attemptedly. Helen Whitehead was working at a house up the street from Mrs. Harold's place there. Now, Whitehead testified later on that a man came to the door and asked for a coat hanger to unlock his car. She described him as being in his late 20s, having blonde hair and wearing a tan or beige jumpsuit. Sounds like flower guy to me. He had a and also she said, quote, a long white box was sitting on top of his car you know like a flower box and she though testifies later and swears that the man she saw was not james wall raven different fucking guy so now we have the same flower guy same beige uniform same flower box box, two different women,

one saying it definitely was James Wallraven. I'll never forget those eyes. And the other one saying it absolutely was definitely not James Wallraven, the guy I saw in a tan uniform and a flower box. Fuck, this is a nightmare. This is a fucking nightmare. This is a disaster. If you're the cops, you're like, you know, you're the detectives.

You're like a flower box based uniform. That's great. This guy. Nope, not him. Fuck. Are you're the cops, you're like, you know, you're the detectives. You're like a flower box based uniform. That's great. This guy. Nope, not him. Fuck. Are you kidding me? Either you're wrong or the one or worse, the one identifying someone as a murderer is wrong. So both of those are bad.

Jesus, this is bad shit. So could there just be multiple scumbags? I don't know, but I don't know if they both had the flower box idea. So someone has to be wrong about this, whether the beige. I assume there wasn't two guys with the exact same idea to be in the, you know, problems. Yeah. Unless there's an actual unless somebody was actually getting a flower delivery that day. Exactly. That's possible.

And yeah, that's that's the other thing. Who knows? Maybe that guy just actually had flowers we don't know he's just fuck uh gl smith an investigator with the decalb county police department he went and searched wall raven's apartment on july 14th 1981 maybe that'll clear the air a little bit we'll find out what he's gotten there they found absolutely nothing that connected him with giselle clardy's murder or any other murder any of the other two no like lengths of rope no anything like that no anything that would connect him or any other crime at all they couldn't find any evidence of

he's just some guy with an apartment that fucking that's it yeah okay now physical uh physical evidence that they have his blood type matches the blood type of the sperm found in two of the murders the third one had no sperm present no seminal fluid present so close of the two the blood type matches, which means very, very little. That means that him or 30% to 40% of the population could have done it. Seriously, that's how fucking much that is. If you test everybody in this town, 30% to 40% of you are going to be in this guy's camp. Anybody O positive? Great. All of you are suspects then.

That's the deal here. And also the pubic hair is similar. Okay. Microscopically, but not obviously. So it's not ruled out is the thing. Not a DNA match there. Not anything. So they arrest him, obviously.

This is what they got. Now he is ready to make a statement when they arrest him. He doesn't clam up. He wants to chat. He says that he, you know, very easily says he has previous mental problems. He used to take medications when they're talking to him about his past trying to kill a friend, you know, trying

to kill my friend. You guys may recognize me from jail. You know, he said that he felt comfortable talking to the police because they said, are you uncomfortable in any way? He said, no, no no this is i'm actually real comfortable with this because i've been to so many psychiatrists and stuff this is kind of like that so i'm real i'm super super comfy with talking in a easy peasy with uh with bright white fluorescent lighting overhead i'm very i don't know why things come out when that when i can hear buzzing in a light bulb. Boom. I just. That's my chatter time.

Shit comes popping. He denies it was him. Okay. He denies it was him. He swears and he's positive it wasn't him. And do you know why he's positive? Because he was where? No.

Because he definitely, definitely, definitely didn't rape rape anybody he knows he didn't rape anybody he's positive of that why are you so sure you ask jimmy because he's gay nope it's no gay would be fine um okay but did he castrate himself nope nope it's worse than that um this is this is one of those details that if i had found this detail, first, I would do the whole murder based on this detail because it's so fucking crazy. But the fact that I found this at the two-minute warning, at the end of the research, and I found this and went, holy shit. Okay. He definitely didn't rape them. okay he definitely didn't rape them and he's sure of that because he has only had sex with one person in his whole life okay who is it i'll give you his quote he's only had sex with one

person in his whole life so he couldn't rape two other people because that's not the person he had sex with quote the only person i've ever had sex with in my life was my sister oh my fucking god kill me now kill me now i can't take it anymore the players play fucking flower boxes and people breaking in and scumbags and pushing into apartments and dead women and bath tubs and rape and semen and this guy fucking his sister and that's the only person he's ever fucked and that's his excuse for in a fucking murder interrogation I have only fucked my sister guys hey we're right on our sisters every

day did you rape these women I missed that chorus in that ludicrous song fuck i hate southern rap wow man i i'm happily missed every chorus in every southern rap song ever that's jermaine dupree but he's great if i hear if i hear i turn it off immediately and that's every fucking southern rap song i can't take the way i can't take the speech pattern up there if i hear the if i hear

the sound i'm out i'm fucking out i hate that shit it makes me laugh i love hate it i can't listen to that shit for two seconds literally i will fucking get violent and fucking look for a volume so much of it i hate it hate it like cast Like fingernails on a fucking chalkboard. The worst. People on MJG. I loved it. Nope. Nope.

Nope. I'm so specific with rap. I don't like rap from certain boroughs of New York. Never mind the fuck outside of that shit. There's about two people. Nope. No, it's not. It's bad.

It's all bad. It's all terrible. It all sounds the same. And it all goes. I love all of it. All that shit. I can't do it, dude. So anyway, It all sounds the same. And it all goes. I love all of it. All that shit. I can't do it, dude. So anyway, during this, the only.

Wow. Did you rape them? No, I didn't. Why? This is only for my sister. That's why you're getting really personal with these questions. You know what? This is too personal.

I've only had sex with my sister, so I'm a very innocent man. I don't need all these dirty questions coming my way here well we've got a lot more now yeah let's sit let's bring your mom back in here that said you were an exemplary mom what's exemplary about fucking i said you know they were fucking wow i am just absolutely disturbed at this so either he's either a rapist murderer or a sister fucker one of the two those are the options here that we have either he's telling the truth and he fucks his sister or he's doing this i don't even know what's i don't even know what's worse i don't know what to even think anymore i'm i'm lost i'm fucking lost so now people saw him not doing creepy shit, too, though.

He's a tennis pro, by the way. That's his job. He teaches tennis at a fucking club. And all he can manage to muster is his sister? That's what he says. He's a tennis pro, though. So on April 15th, 1981, the day of the murder, obviously, the Luis DeSanto murder. His boss, the manager of the Glen Lake Tennis Center, Peggy Brodsky, said that he was there managing the phones at the tennis center from 4 p.m. to 10 p.m. that night.

And Buffington said he saw the things and things other people saw were like four o'clock. So he was there at four. So he would have had to have done it well before 3 30 to be able to get to his job by four and man the phones so uh jonathan linton also testified that he saw the uh he saw uh wall graven at blackburn park on june 15th 1981 that's the day patricia berry was killed between 4 15 and 4 30 and they warmed up together playing tennis uh they warmed up they were going to play in a tournament later that evening together so they were warming up together so this is so exhausting yeah this is in fucking insane so the cops decide based on all this that he killed all three definitely they're like well the same person did all three we know that and uh we got him so you did all three this was essentially that's that so they charge him right

away uh uh with number one the uh the uh constance harold break trying to break into her house they charge him with that that's something they can hold him on and you know whatever and they consider him a suspect of the slaying of Patricia Berry. But they are going to charge him with the Giselle Clardy. They indict him on Luis Luis Del Santo and they charge him and do it. And they want to take him to trial for Giselle Clardy. So they're not trying all these together. They're breaking them apart.

Oh, boy. Because if you try them, if you try them together and one ends up not being you know looks like there's reasonable doubt on one then it fucks up all three of them essentially so but the problem is uh this is pretty easy to defend in court isn't it it's it's interesting um so they say that the bodies of all three face down bathtub strangled they think it's a pretty good deal. They indict him for Del Santo, like we said, and also a criminal charge of a criminal to commit burglary. That's the burglary charges against the woman he pushed in with the flower box there. So the trial comes up. November of 1981 is the trial.

It's for Giselle Clardy. First thing is, are they going to let the hypnosis testimony in? Because half of Buffington's shit came under hypnosis. So they were like, you know, what's up with that? So they said that's tainted testimony. And the use of hypnosis as a method of producing evidence has, quote, not reached a scientific stage of verifiable certainty. Well, guess what, everyone? We can tell you 40 years in the future.

It still has not reached that stage. So we're going to go ahead and say not reliable there. So as noted, they said that the subjects under hypnosis are not admissible to show the truth of a statement made. It's just that they made the statement, basically. They said that the reliability of hypnosis has not been established and statements made while the witness was in a trance are inadmissible by the reliable reliability of hypnosis we meant the reliability of the actual testimonial product of the hypnosis session

we did not delve into the effect of hypnosis on testimony subsequent to okay so they said that basically in georgia when they fought to see who whether they were going to let this in or not georgia should not this is what the court said georgia should not quote count heads in the scientific community to determine the validity of scientific processes or techniques actually that's exactly what you should do how many scientists think this is right more of you that's what we're going with for now let us know if you change your mind so they just take like are we talking about they're trying to say they take one opinion and go with just take whatever they feel like we established instead the rule that the court

reviewing the procedure or technique could consult evidence presented at trial including expert testimony uh expert uh exhibits basically that you could you can uh do it case by case and just kind of decide piecemeal whether it's okay or not okay so they said that there's dangers in using hypnosis to uncover fresh memories that memories can be planted into your brain through hypnosis uh two primary dangers inherent in hypnosis of a potential witness are known as cementing and confabulation. And they said cementing occurs when the subject of hypnosis recounts a version of certain memory accompanied by the suspension of critical judgment inevitably caused by hypnosis. These events, the events as recalled under hypnosis, set up in the witness's mind due to the suspension of critical judgment and the witness's belief that the hypnosis will produce the correct memory. Cementing creates a confident witness and renders cross-examination difficult.

So that's why they say that's bad. to suggestion or expectation to fill in gaps in his memory, which is what I was talking about before with fantasy exaggeration or memories or other events transferred to compensate for lack of actual memory. That's why if you've ever had an older relative, if any of your grandparents died of Alzheimer's or had dementia like I've had that in my family, you'll see that where you'll go, hey, where'd you go? And you know they only went from there to there. And they'll be like, I went to the store. And you're like, no, you didn't.

But their brain doesn't know. And so their brain wants to fill it in, though. And that's the thing that they would think was an okay answer. So they just fill it in. It's the same exact fucking thing that happens in hypnosis. So they said the pressure to fill in the gaps may come from within the witness himself through the desire to be involved in the case or the desire to be a good witness people like to do well that's the thing yeah if you if you give someone a task

yeah they want to perform it well they just do they want to be told they did a good job you're right it's just the way it is we want to we want a treat we want we want pep rubs we want all of it rub my belly yeah i'm allergic to rice tell me i'm a good boy yeah i am a guy i'm a good boy so uh they said it may come from the hypno uh hypnotist through leading questions repeated questions as to detail or even body language they'll pick up on that and be like oh they want me to say something different, and then they'll just fill it in. Like, I'll be a good boy.

I'll be a good boy. The possibility of inaccurate testimony created by confabulation presents perhaps the greatest danger caused by hypnosis of a witness. That's in a court document. And I would agree with that. If you just plant made up shit in their head so they can fill in gaps and make you so you're pleased with them. It's fucking nuts.

They go for a change of venue here because, you know, this gets a lot of attention, as you might imagine. Yeah, I would hope so. Hey, women, lock your doors or you'll be raped and strangled in your bathtubs. Gets people's fucking attention. And not even lock your doors.

Don't fucking answer it. Don't answer it. When you come home, have your head on a swivel, you know, keys in your fist. This is scary. Every door you walk in, shut it and answer it. Don't answer it. When you come home, have your head on a swivel, you know, keys in your fist. This is scary. Every door you walk in, shut it and lock it. Yeah. So they watched during this hearing, they watched about an hour of videotaped television

stories on the bathtub stranglings. And they, you know, he's asking for a change of venue. They said it's this is his lawyer. It's the continuous and repeated references in all media to Jim's psychological problems and and his arrest. So they said he was also arrested, by the way, for carrying a gun to a public tennis center and voicing threats against the tennis pro. So that's the other thing he did was armed threats against a tennis pro at another tennis center. That's the other thing he did was armed threats against a tennis pro at another tennis center. So the lawyer said what they have done and spread all over metropolitan Atlanta is his prior arrest and psychological history.

That's the main harm, I believe, in this behalf of Wall Raven about the influence of news coverage on possible jurors and broadcasts and all that sort of thing. They said that Noble said that he found Wall Raven described as, and they asked people what they described him, you know, what do you think of that guy you heard got arrested for the thing he was described as quote nervous unstable unemployed hair triggered a dangerous type tortured a college dropout the silent type who could blow up in an instant an abused child who was beaten and choked by his father that's what people think of him yeah big fan great guy it would be very difficult if not impossible for jurors to come to a courtroom free uh to come to a courtroom free of that it's just not very likely it's very likely to be a pre-judgment so that was that but one juror even said quote there's so much going on in atlanta georgia that one more case weird or otherwise doesn't bother me i mean it doesn't get my attention they were

like i mean i guess i've heard of it in passing, but I've heard of 10 other weird shit since then, so I don't know. There's a man out there raping and murdering children, so desensitized, sir. A little desensitized to that. Nothing surprises me anymore. Ted Bundy's on the run. You know, I mean, what are we doing here? It's 1981, my man. Yeah, 82 now.

The judge refuses the change of venue as a matter of fact which i think that's kind of stupid what does it hurt that's a judge that wants to do this case himself that's what that is like i'm taking this for me so in the opening the prosecutor said that two of the women who escaped injury would testify the ones that he tried to break in their place quote you will hear testimony from two women who will tell the circumstances of events that changed their lives, that they were shown lineups independently and picked out Wallraven.

Now, Wallraven's public defender, he said, quote, that he asked the jury that you, quote, look very closely at this case. The state cannot shoulder its burden of proof in the death of Gisele Clardy at the hands of James Wallraven. It is a jury of six men and six women, and they have crime lab experts who testify that, you know, that basically they bring in all the evidence from the other two murders in

this, too. They're he's not charged with them, but they are linking it to say this is brother behavior. He does as well. So they're making sure the jury knows bad guy he's a serial killer fucking put him away yeah i'm i'm i'm nervous james real nervous one expert testified that the blood type was consistent with seminal fluid samples there's there and then the pubic hair was quote sufficiently similar or showed sufficient similarities to wall raven's hair that's not close enough deborah diane smith a resident manager of the complex and the first witness called by the prosecution testifies that giselle clardy had

driven to the u building to post notices on 16 apartments to notify their residents to clean out their food cabinets for the exterminator there are 18 apartments in the building and two of them were vacant. So no need to give them notices. Miss Smith said she received a call the next day from Miss Clarity's boyfriend who was upset because Giselle didn't come home the night before. So this Miss Smith notified the maintenance man, William Henry Haney, and the two searched for Miss Clarity. notified the maintenance man, William Henry Haney, and the two searched for Miss Clarity and they found Miss Smith said she found the car parked out there, like we said, and went

into the apartment. You won. She testifies, quote, I went to the door and unlocked it. When I opened it, I called out for her. Gigi, if you're here, are you OK? She said that she noticed that the door, a door, a jar in the apartment and walked down the hall toward the bathroom. And she said she saw Giselle's body face down in the bathtub. And she said, Gigi, is that you?

Well, fuck. She's face down in the bathtub. I don't think anyone's going to answer you. You know, I don't think whoever it is. Right. If it's not her, what else? Yeah. If it's not her, what else? Yeah. If it's not her, what the fuck?

No, I'm your neighbor. Yeah. No, no. Pop your head out of the water. So then she ran and found the maintenance guy and the maintenance guy, Haney. He testifies that Miss Smith told him, quote, Bill, I think I found somebody in the bathtub at you up at you one. And he went up into the apartment, looked at the body, determined it was Giselle, and called the police.

What, were you not going to call the police if it wasn't her? No, I don't know who that is. Fuck her, and then walk out and leave. Oh, it's Giselle. Call the cops, everybody. It's Giselle. Call the cops. Anybody you find in an apartment complex that you're taking care of, call the cops, then figure it out from there.

Especially if it's a half-nude body and about to face down let's let's go ahead and get the police here and worry about the rest later he said she was nude from the waist down in the bathtub uh with her clothes a clipboard and papers strewn all over her body so like all of her shit was just tossed on top of her wow like they went through her shit and tossed it on top of her like fuck that so uh an inmate from the jail named Zorda is a David Zorda he says wall raven confessed to him okay he says he confessed to me man he said he did it all so a Robert Melton who's commander of the jail division in the DeKalb County Sheriff's Department. He says that Zorda spent approximately three days in the DeKalb County jail and that Zorda and Wallraven were both in the jail store on July 24th, 1981, and at no other time did

they cross paths at all. They both would probably have been placed in the same holding area of the store at the time, so they might have had interaction with each other. of the store at the time so they might have bad interaction with each other one guy uh wayne crier he testifies that he's the quote house man for the northeast uh mac cell block i guess he's the trustee i guess that means got it okay i don't like that term at all yeah house man that sounds that's that's very southern and very very and Southern. We'll put it that way. Let's go with trustee on that one. That's the most trusted person that we forced to do shit.

I don't like that at all. Houseman sounds like he goes, they ran that way. That's what houseman sounds like. I don't want to hear that. That's, I saw him go that way. I don't want to hear that. That's, let's stick stick with let's go with trustee trustee yeah so um he they were he said they were incarcerated in the same cell block

crier testified that during the first six weeks of wall ravens incarceration he never went to the store without crier being present because crier walked him there crier never saw uh wall raven talking to david zorda and never heard wall raven confess to zorda or anyone else so he's saying zorda's full of shit um i didn't hear shit and i was right there the whole time if he if he never has interaction with him except for maybe at the store like you're not gonna just walk by somebody be like oh is that all the ramen's out i killed somebody i did all of it hey what's up my name is j name's James. Yeah, no, I like honey buns, too. I killed three of these bitches.

Yeah, three of them. I strangled them, fucking put them right in the bathtub. It was pretty good, man. But you look at this. They got Nutter Butters today. I kill bitches. Do you know that? Kill them all.

I mean, there's more. They don't even know about them. Now, they bring Buffington in. Buffington comes in between 4 and 4.30. He said sometime between 4 and 4 30 he saw the woman you know we gave you the whole story he said quote she seemed unaware that she was being closely trailed by a small sedan with two men in the car he said that the men parked three car lengths from the woman's car and a white male got out and approached they had a three to five minute

conversation at first it was 10 to 15 minutes and then it went from that to three to five minute conversation. At first it was 10 to 15 minutes, and then it went from that to three to five at trial. Walked down a concrete path toward you building out of his line of vision. Oh, that's right. And then they talked in front of him for a few minutes. And then 10 to 15 minutes later, he said that he saw the man coming running at a good fast trot and spoke excitedly to the driver before he got into the car and the men drove off. So what he's saying, yeah, now there's an accomplice to this whole thing, which is even crazier. and spoke excitedly to the driver before he got into the car and the men drove off. So what he's saying, yeah, now there's an accomplice to this whole thing, which is even crazier. He said that he did not know Gisele Clardy at the time and only learned later that the woman he'd seen was Gisele Clardy.

He just saw a woman and then found out that's who it was. He did identify Walraven in the courtroom as the man he saw talking to her. wall raven in the courtroom as the man he saw talking to her he's a self-employed auto mechanic and he testified that he was absolutely certain that the man he saw talking to giselle clardy at the cherry hill apartments the day she was killed that's very important it'll come back was wall raven he said that he was in the parking lot for nearly five hours and he recalled all the traffic in the area he is this He is the neighborhood traffic watch guy. Let me tell you something. His name is a fan belt. A little bit of a backup.

What did he do that took him five hours on that car? Jesus. Right? A little bit of a backup on the west side of the lot this morning, but we got it all cleared up. No, it was a Buick LeSabre, a Chrysler LeBaron. Yeah, what is he doing? Pay attention to that car that you're under the hood of,

so you can get yourself killed. He's really attention to traffic yeah really he can he can fucking fix an engine or fix something while paying attention more to anything else around that's impressive he really he rebuilt a shitload of things on that car in five hours that's a long time to work on a car that's a lot yeah now haney the maintenance man he testifies that he had seen wall raven on the apartment complex grounds at least two times before giselle clardy's death but he could not remember him there on the day of the murder the day he would have been the murder would have occurred wall raven testifies for himself oh yeah he gets up on the stand absolutely he denies being at the cherry

hill apartments on may 28th 1981 and he claimed he had not been there in over three years he also testifies that he's right-handed and wears his watch on his left wrist because someone said he had a watch on his right hand on his right arm and he's like right-handed wear it on my left wrist which if you're right-handed where's your watch? It's on your left wrist. So he also testified that he never, ever wore any other jewelry, including medallions. He's like, I never had a medallion in my life. He said he never saw David Zorda or never noticed him until he testified at his trial. Was the only time he even noticed him.

And he did not know the whereabouts of the Windermere apartments. He didn't even know where those were. He said, so I couldn't have been there doing that one over there. He didn't own a car. He said, and he said he did not kill Giselle Clardy, Louise DeSanto or Patricia Barry or attack Mrs.

Finnerty or Mrs. Harold didn't do any of that shit. Why didn't he do any of that why is the only woman the only woman that i have been intimate with is my sister and i will not will not cheat on her now i'm a faithful man he closes out his testimony with quote if i had done those murders i wouldn't want to live. That's what he says. So he's saying that he's a very moral man.

But I want to live. But I do. I fucked my sister. But I fucked my sister. Now, he's proud of the sister fucking, I feel like. I've only fucked my sister. That's it. That was years ago.

If I did that other stuff, I'd want to die. Jesus Christ. Sister fucking fine. So the closing arguments come out here the prosecutor says quote there's a compelling amount of evidence that Mr. Wallraven committed these crimes but it's not a perfect case it's really far from perfect at this moment this is a bad my friend I'm horrified if they had DNA to match then it'd be great all that other circumstantial shit would then fit into that basket because you'd have DNA. But all this and a blood type that's similar, that's tough. So Peter's returned to the contention that there are three themes in the case.

The Clardy murder, the similarities between the five cases, the three murders and the two break-ins, and the character of Wallraven. He asked the jury, do you ever have to search your mind to find out if you've done anything you've heard mr wall raven say that he searched his mind and he didn't do it who cares what's in his mind his mind ought to be the real prize his mind ought to be a real prize anyway jesus fuck that guy in his fucking mind. He then says, quote, nobody's got any vendetta against James Wall Raven. The only reason he's here is because everybody said, quote, that's the guy who did it. Okay. So he says in his closing also that he said, quote, for all intents and purposes, you heard a dead woman on the stand.

It's just the sheerest luck that you heard her testify. The one who got strangled and woke up and was missing a bayonet so um yeah they're going for the death penalty here by the way too this is they're pushing this is uh i mean having a serial strangler deal that's huge yeah it is uh the defense says quote there is a fence around him and the links are the presumption of innocence and this case must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. This is not a fanciful doubt, not a doubt drawn from the sky. There's no fingerprints and no physical evidence to tie James Samuel Wallraven to these cases. Okay.

You would imagine there's going to be a lot of back and forth on the jury here as far as, you know, there's going to be one of those long deliberations. Verdict comes back in less than two hours oh my god which seems really really really really fast for this for this amount of evidence yeah yeah and you're saying it's a murder case three murders all these different witnesses times to go over all that stuff less than two hours they find him guilty wow of everything okay shocking now sentencing comes around prosecution is going for death in the electric chair that is the goal here boy oh boy now uh mitigation they're going for looking for mitigation the defense try to you know find some sympathetic jurors find a reason not to light him up. Yeah, they bring in Mildred Wallraven, mom. They bring mom in.

He's an exemplary boy. He says that she said he's a good kid. Dad beat the shit out of everyone. Exemplary boy. Blah, blah, blah. They asked her, do you think his is a life worth saving? And she said, yes, I do. And they actually asked her her do you want to see

him die and she said no what the fuck kind of a mother would go absolutely that'd be pretty cool please do you want to see him dies your son that's a dumb question is this life worth saving yes yes it is i believe so do you want to watch him die i think i answered that with the first question yeah i understand that you have to show the jury that someone gives a shit that he lives or dies. That's what you're trying to do here. This is OK. Maybe you don't care about James Wallraven. But what about this nice old Mildred lady who got the shit beat out of her by her husband for 15 fucking years?

What about her? She doesn't want to see him die. Don't hurt her. So he Wallraven waved to his mother as she left the witness box. But she didn't look at him, so she didn't see it. But he waved like, hi. What was the daisy? Yeah.

He also gets on the stand for his sentencing hearing here. And he gets on the stand here, sentencing hearing for this. Yeah, the sentencing hearing. He says that a poem, he took the stand and read a poem that he said it's been comfort to him during the trial. It's If by Rudyard Kipling. That's what he's reading. That's his mitigating evidence? Yeah, it's a poem.

He read a fucking poem. And he also, again, denied murdering anybody. He read Kipling. He read some Kipling. Sentencing jury. That's evidence that he makes bad decisions i mean that's a that's a that's a bad choice right there fucks his sister reads kipling on the stand i'm gonna go with bad bad bad bad bad on second thought let's keep possibly wears a medallion a lot of bad choices here with this guy certainly wears a v-neck absolutely definitely wears a v-neck jury deliberating on life or death of a man um you imagine spend a

little more time than they did on the on the guilty or verdict uh jury comes back in less than 40 minutes how much do they hate this man i swear they didn't even fill the paperwork out all the way in 40 minutes. That is like, they had somebody who writes real fast. They just wrote it on their own. Just on a post-it note. We're like, here, fuck it. Folded it up like a paper airplane and threw it at the judge.

We all wrote guilty. That's our verdict. What are they going to do, James? Are they going to kill him? They tell him, you, sir sir may fuck off death in the electric chair this is the most questionable thing i've ever heard and it's the crimes it's understandable that people want retribution for these crimes and if we decided he's guilty then we should kill him but fuck i'm not so i'm not real positive about a lot of that's real quick

to judgment guys wow wow um i saw him okay well there you go then it's case closed shit september of 82 comes around and he writes a letter to the da saying hurry the fuck up and electrocute me oh it's been like nine months. He says that he would like to drop the appeal procedure and because he, quote, would like to be electrocuted as soon as possible. I could just fuck my sister first and then just light me up. Wow. The district attorney released the letter to the press and Wallraven confirmed that he had written the letter. It was a real letter.

And they even compared the signature to other documents to make sure they're like, is he fucking serious? And the jail commander said, quote, he definitely wrote it. The prosecutor said that Wallraven's letter has no immediate effect on his case because all death sentences are automatically appealed to the Georgia Supreme Court. He said the high court, which heard oral arguments last June, is still considering the case. He maintains his innocence still, by the way. What? But Walraven said, quote, the mental

anguish is too great to keep my sanity much longer. I would like to be electrocuted as soon as possible. He's just jail is too much stress and he can't take it. But didn't do it he says uh his attorney described him as depressed and said he gained 20 pounds while in prison because he's depressed he said that uh he's mellowed in the last few months but had been earlier considered dangerous by jail officials it's called your 20 pounds fatter but yeah you're even you're more formidable now they said on two occasions wall raven had made baton like weapons by inserting radio batteries

in cardboard tubes and taping the ends fuck man that's that'll do it that'll do it jesus jesus christ um his public defender had no comment on the letter. Obviously, he's like, I don't fucking know what to say about that. Jesus Christ. That's a lot. What do I even say? But not so fast with that voltage yet, fellas. Let's take the hood off the executioner for one second here and take a break because it goes all the way to the Georgia Supreme Court in late 1982, like two months later.

court in late 1982 like two months later and they uh they say that the original court made a key error in admitting a statement by david zorda the cell the prisoner that said there who claimed he confessed to him about the murder they said that they should have not admitted the statement because a copy had not been given to the defense council as uh required by law it's discovery they didn't fucking give them discovery that's insane no so they couldn't which if you don't know you can't investigate it then and have questions to make them fuck up their story because you investigated it it's just a guy's word and you go did that really happen and then he goes yeah and then it's that's it it's his word versus you know somebody who fucks his sister. Yeah. And that's his excuse.

I fucked my sister, not these women, which is a bad excuse. They said that he shouldn't have done that. However, they said, however, they insisted that the requirement that the prosecution supply the defense with statements made by the defendant while in custody pertains to statements made to agents of the state.

In custody has always been interpreted to mean law enforcement officials zorda who is out of jail by this time will again be asked to testify at the retrial if there's a retrial if he gets you know he said basically they're saying if he's gonna if he gets if let's say this gets dismissed well then he's gonna testify again so i don't know what the fuck you guys are talking shit about him for he said he was hesitant to testify in wall raven's first trial because he feared for his safety yeah he could have hurt me in jail yeah um so the district attorney said the georgia supreme court uh they're talking about supreme u.s supreme court rulings about different things uh it's really fucking interesting um and uh they finally decide after all this they are going to get rid of this shit

throw it out they said uh he is uh yeah not affirmed they act they overturn the conviction keeping him in jail on the burglary charge that he's got 20 years for. They keep him in there on that. But the death penalty, they have to retry it on. The the prosecutor said, we obviously have no choice given the decision of the Supreme Court, but to proceed and hope to be successful with a retrial. They also said that the high court's decision sets a dangerous precedent that hamstrings prosecutors. You can't hide shit. No, you have to be fair.

That's what you have to do. Quote, the state will soon have so many strings on it that it will be impossible to pull all of them in the right sequence to get a conviction. I have already had calls from other DAs who said the Wallraven decision was successfully cited against them in trials. Wow. Well, yeah, tough tough shit that's the law i mean it's fair is fair you're fucking putting people away forever it's got to be perfect sorry or at least forever you're trying to kill him you're trying to kill him don't fuck this up he's still in jail though so 1983 is his second trial now right before his second trial january

of 83 is when they're talking about they they refiled the charges they're going to do it again he has friends apparently walray and somehow he has friends friends of his set up a legal defense hunt uh fund to hire a lawyer and expert witnesses for the second trial okay that's what they said bill swift Swift, who's... Will you fund me? Yeah, yeah. Bill Swift is a fellow tennis instructor at the DeKalb Tennis Center. He said he announced the fund in a press conference. He said he hopes to raise at least $3,000 to pay for a lawyer and travel expenses and fees for three expert witnesses. It'll be a lot more than that, even in 81. Yeah, dig deep.

Yeah. He said that the Georgia Supreme Court had had overturned it so he thinks that his friend you know has a should have a chance at innocence here he said that uh the fund is being established by a group of friends and supporters who quote don't think he's guilty of what he's being uh been accused of swift said i've known jim for eight years i knew him over at decalb tennis center and i used to play tennis with him over at DeKalb Tennis Center, and I used to play tennis with him over there. We took lessons from the same pro. The people joining us in this thing are of like mind. We believe he is an honest and gentle person who

could not have done it. We don't believe he's capable of doing it. So these are people who know him. They said he's just a gentle person. He said he'll help him select a replacement for the public defender. He even says, quote, Loftus, who's the public defender, did a good job. But Jim has asked me to look for another attorney. Jim's not real familiar with the legal system. I've had a good many dealings with the legal system and know several lawyers. So he's delegating that responsibility to me. There's about a dozen friends who expressed support for the fund at

that time. And he said that they're going to contact everybody they know. And yeah, he said that they need to build up a big fund here and do this. Margie Fargo is a friend of Wall Raven's from Druid Mills High School or Druid Hills High School. And she's going to assist in the jury selection process she's an expert on jury selection isn't it great if you're accused of murder hope one of your high school friends is now an expert on jury selection imagine that yeah my high school friends get your retainer fee together yeah that's amazing my high school friends could yeah could you knowVAC. That's about it. I got nothing. My high school friends are all heroin addicts. Yeah.

Who do HVAC probably also. And roofing. One's a pool man. Yeah, that's the worst thing. One's a mechanic. That's fine. One is a financial planner, James, and he is a fucking heroin addict. Perfect. Excellent.

So, yeah, they said that these these lawyers they try to weed anybody out that's her job is to weed anybody out on the jury with prejudice on the case so that's the whole thing they said they got a guy uh they get a the expert will uh who's they have an expert on eyewitness identification and demographic composition of jury pools will also be brought in for this. Now it's like a serious trial. They said that Walraven will challenge the racial composition of the jury that the first indicted him on. That was disallowed, though. But he was trying to say that there wasn't enough white people on the jury, is what he

said. He said this was one reason why the Supreme Court reversed his decision. So he wants a delay to find a new lawyer, as a matter of fact. Really? Yeah. He said, quote, I relieved Mr. Loftus as my attorney, and he wanted a, quote, fresh and different approach to the new trial. So that was that. He said, sorry.

But Loftus said, quote, if he can't obtain counsel, we'll represent him, I guess. We may get it back. Loftus said, quote, if he can't obtain counsel, we'll represent him, I guess. We may get it back. Loftus said, by now, Wallraven has gained 40 to 50 pounds since he's been in jail. Wow. A lot of honey buns. That's a lot because he's not getting as much exercise as he's used to.

They said he was an avid tennis player and now he's, quote, gone fat, gone to fat just sitting sitting around. They want to, the prosecutor doesn't want the trial to be delayed. And he says, quote, I have Mr. Walraven before me in a capital case, and he's not represented by an attorney, and you're asking me to strike his demand? I cannot entertain that request. That's what the judge says. Like, you want me to proceed with a death penalty trial with a guy who has no lawyer yeah that's fine that won't get overturned on appeal or anything himself right yeah perfect no problem easy peasy this has been turned over once let's not do it again jesus christ so again they are seeking the death penalty this time of course yeah so um yeah they talk about clarity again and

um you know giselle clarity and they said they're gonna show why he's responsible for everything this time the judge approves a change of venue really yes because it was found that they should have done it last time too that was one of the things the supreme court found and um the they say that the the defense says the change of venue will help them they say quote our firm has got practicing out of a suitcase down to a science those poor district attorneys have never done that they're going to have a heck of a time trying to uh trying the case out of atlanta so he said the evidence will be the same as long as the jurors are impartial and the evidence is the same it will be just like trying it here that's what the da says yeah same thing no home team no home team it's all good

now during jury selection the defense team said they're looking for jurors who among other things know about cars and the game of tennis this is what you're looking for you're not gonna find that person we're looking for like a kind of a tennis playing mechanic type of guy. You know any of those? We need a real rugged, a man's man who knows about a Ford Bronco who also loves Andre Agassi. That guy doesn't exist. It's like 81. I'm looking for like Boris Becker who can put a carburetor back together.

You know anybody like that? Doesn't exist. John McEnroe. That's not a man you know jimmy connors is good with a with engines what does he got so um even today that doesn't exist 40 years later roger federer does not resonate with the mechanic community probably not they did say that tennis players would sympathize with wall raven as an avid tennis player before his arrest.

So that's what they wanted. They end up with an all-white, six-man, six-woman jury. That's what they get here. The other thing is they're trying to get TV cameras in here. And this has not happened hardly at all in the history of justice. And they decide that they're going to allow tv cameras for the huge bathtub strangler case dear christ this is when it first started happening remember it was in richard ramirez's trial in like 84 or 85 whenever that was the judge agreed to allow two tv cameras

and one still camera inside the courtroom the ruling broke no new ground it says but he is only uh one of only a dozen or so judges in the state who have asked the Georgia Supreme Court to allow cameras in the courtroom. A lot of judges oppose cameras because they think it disrupts court proceedings and might jeopardize the right to a fair trial. Yeah. A superior court judge named Judge Osgood Williams said, I'm personally opposed to it. I do think it could have a very unwholesome influence on individuals involved in the case. He says that he feels that witnesses and lawyers might try to ham it up in front of the cameras, which we find that they do. Oh, they go so hard with the theatrics.

They're on fucking TV. They're human beings. They're going to act like, hey, everyone's watching. TV. They're human beings. They're going to act like, hey, everyone's watching. He also says the cameras might distract jurors and takes exception to the notion that television coverage would keep trial participants in line. He said, I think it would be in bad shape if it took television to make us act the way we should. That's pretty fucking funny. It's been debated since 1935 after they allowed cameras in the court for the Lindbergh kidnapping coverage. And they said it made it a media circus. And in the 1960s, they had a trial for Texas financier Billy Sol Estes.

And they said that it added to the anxiety of judges about television cameras and made it really weird. The Supreme Court overturned the conviction, ruling that the presence of television cameras during the trial may have had a prejudicial effect on the judge, witnesses, and jurors and deprived them of a fair trial. So they actually overturned a case based on the cameras just being there. In 1981, there was a decision with two miami beach police officers convicted of burglary and the high court upheld the power of the state to allow

trials to be recorded by cameras they said the risk of juror prejudice in some cases does not justify an absolute ban so they're going to allow cameras in the fucking courtroom of course allow i mean give them the opportunity but also understand that if this is a high profile thing that you don't want overturned, don't have them in there. If it's some bullshit burglary, I could give a fuck. Well, this judge says, quote, I can see where I can see where there's an opportunity for attorneys to try to upstage each other. I think, however, it makes them more careful in what they do, which makes sense.

You can't really fuck up because people notice, essentially, if you're fucking that up. So opening statements here quickly. We'll go through this trial here. They said that the defense said that the case against him is a house of cards built on the testimony of one witness and shaky physical evidence if uh one card of a house falls and the card and one card on a house falls of cards falls then what happens to the rest the whole house falls and that's exactly what will happen and they're talking about we've heard the analogy before sir you don't have to we've heard it we know about the house of cards we get it we. We get what that means. If you take one away, what'll happen?

Huh? What do you think? They said that they'll will show the defense says that they'll show that Jim didn't do one of them and he didn't do any of them. And yeah, so there you go. The prosecution said that the strangling death of Miss Clardy came at the hands. And I do mean at the hands of this man. Very dramatic.

The only, basically, he says later on that he only, at one point in the fall of 81, when he was asking to be electrocuted, he was saying that bring someone in here and I'll confess to him. I don't even fucking care anymore.

Because he just wanted to get electrocuted. Now he says that he only said that because jail sucks. So that's the idea. Yeah. They said it's our contention that whatever statement wall Raven made, uh, it was under cruel, unusual punishment situation where he didn't know what he was doing.

That's what they told the judge. So anytime he was in jail, anything he did was not counting, I guess. Now, Buffington, our big main, our fucking arm, our forearm aficionado who he's the guy who put this all together without him saying that's the guy who went and saw her, had 15 minutes alone with her and then ran to a car. OK, he now says that he made an error. Uh-oh. He asked to be brought back on the stand to say that he made a one-day error on what day he was talking about.

And that wasn't the same day. Oh, my God. James. Completely. Do I have to remind you about a house of cards? Holding up a card. This is not good. The defense lawyer just holding up a card at the table holding up like just a fucking ace of diamonds there it is the prosecutor downplayed the

incorrect testimony as a minor mental slip that had little bearing on the case that was a lot of the case this buffington and identified him as the obviously what we said. Wow. He testified here that he gave police a detailed description of the man he saw with clarity, but under cross-examination by the defense attorney, Buffington said he actually gave the description to two police officers the next day, not a detailed description there. So he said it was the next day the defense attorney uh tom west alleged in his opening remarks to the jury here that uh that buffington remembered seeing wall raven only after his memory was prodded through hypnosis however buffington testified that he was first hypnotized on june 4th several days after he gave police the description got it so he's saying it was a different day that he spoke to him not a different day that he spoke to him, not a different day that

he saw the guy. Well, no, I think it's a different day that he saw that he saw him. He just messed up the days. He says that they said that in his testimony, Buffington identified him as a passenger in the small sedan that followed the car into there the day before. He said the last question to Buffington after the cross-examination, the prosecutor asked Mr. Buffington, do you plead guilty to being one day off or to one day off two years later?

Like when you said you did this shit? And he said, yes, sir. So I think it's when he gave the description of it. But he testified to giving a description on one day. And then he said, I gave the description on another day. So they're like, hey, this shit has to be consistent. Also, we got the cellmate, quote unquote, cellmate there. We got Zorda, who will be allowed to testify for some fucking reason.

Then David Dean Parker, a car thief and robber with convictions in california colorado and georgia he joined david zorda in testifying saying that he admitted his guilt wall raven he says uh parker said that well both he and wall raven were confined to the maximum security section of the jail after wall raven's original conviction wall raven confided to him, confided in him, quote, because I had been in prison so long, I asked if they had a good case on him. He said that he admitted doing the crime, but he told his attorneys that he thought he could beat the case. That's what he said.

He told the guy, I mean, I did it, but I think I can beat it. The only thing they were concerned about was an auto mechanic who saw him at the scene of the crime. That's what the defense attorney saying. Yeah, this guy saw him there. So what? He told me Zorda was a witness who was going to testify against him in the second trial. He said his attorneys were not too worried about that.

That's what Zorda said. They thought they could discredit Zorda's testimony because of his mental background. Zorda retook the stand, repeated his testimony, and said, Wall Raven told him he, quote, killed the women. And Zorder replied, quote, they're going to burn you for that. And Wall Raven answered, quote, they'll never prove I killed anyone. Oh, boy. Which doesn't sound believable. Now, here's the weirdest thing.

Okay. Now, he's being tried for the Clardy case but the del santo case is being told also that he did all this and they present it just like he's being charged with it so you know to make the pattern her brother the one who found her here he says that when he found his sister's body it was in warm water not hot water warm water okay now or not cold in warm water, not hot water, warm water. Okay. Now, or not cold water, warm water. All right. So it wasn't like it was sitting there for a long, long time.

Bathwater goes cold real fast, real fast. So he testified April 15th about 530 p.m. He found his sister in there in six inches of warm water in the tub. of warm water in the tub. He also verified a telephone bill showing his sister had ended a telephone call with her grandmother at 3.30 p.m. that day. So she couldn't have been killed before 3.30 and obviously not, you know, after 5.30.

And warm water. And somewhere close to 5.30 because there was warm water. Warm water. But that's the day he was at the tennis, he was practicing tennis, or that was the one he was manning the phones from 4 p.m. to 10 p.m. So he would have had to have killed her at 345 at the latest.

And then an hour and 45 minutes. The water still warm. It's a mad insulated tub. That's a pretty good fucking tub. That's the problem here. He verified all that because the water was still warm when he found the body. It probably occurred right before he got there is what's said in all of this. He said, but he was at the Wall Raven was at the Glen Lake tennis courts in Decatur at 4 p.m.

And witnesses all verify verify that he was there. They said the only time Jim conceivably could have done it was between 330 and four. Jim conceivably could have done it was between three thirty and four. And then he would have had to have gone gotten from Clarkston to Decatur without a car in just a few minutes, which would have been very difficult to do as well. Del Santo described the events of the evening. He said he was surprised to pick up his sister's car from the Montessori school where she worked, but noticed the car was not there. He said that he learned that she'd not reported for her four p.m. class to school and called the apartment, but got no answer. He got a ride back and saw the car in the driveway.

He said, quote, I went in and called out for my sister. I didn't hear an answer. I turned into the bathroom area and saw my sister in the bathtub. She was face down with her head away from the faucet. She was unclothed. I checked and didn't find a pulse or any sign of life so um yeah he said i'm convinced and the uh later police sergeant a uh police sergeant j.e helms who's the chief investigator for the case said i'm convinced that she was killed between

3 30 when he would have been uh when she would have been how would she would have had to have been at work and 4 p.m. 3.30 and 4 is when they think. Under cross-examination, this Helms investigator said it was possible Ms. DeSanto could have been killed after 4, but she would not have had to have been already detained by an intruder to keep her from leaving work.

So, but how is the water warm? Unless it was, you know. Wall Raven testifies. By the way, this is an article from the Atlanta Journal Constitution, and the writer's name is David Corvette, which is the coolest fucking David Corvette. Nice to meet you. Sounds very made up. He drives a Chevy Cobalt. You know, he does.

Wall Raven testifies here that he takes a witness stand. Wall Raven testifies here that he takes a witness stand. He says that he felt police investigators tried to brainwash him into believing he killed the women. That's what he said. He said that the statements he made to police after his arrest were made voluntarily. The failure of the trial judge to declare the statements voluntary in the other trial was it's a legal thing he says quote i was remember i was willing to talk to them without a lawyer he does say that he says uh but the uh he says i felt i was being brainwashed i could see that they were trying to trick me into a confession to make me believe i

did it if you didn't kill three people no one is going to talk you into no unless you're like brendan dassey going i guess I did it. I don't know. WrestleMania. How did you find out about me? How did you get my name? That's what Wall Raven said when they sat him down. That was the first thing he asked when they interrogated him is, where did you get my name? Why am I here?

You're talking about me. Right. They said, Wall Raven, they asked Wall Raven if he had killed three women. And he said, quote, I don't think so. If I did commit them, I've definitely suppressed the memory, which is a weird thing to say. It's a terrible answer. Terrible thing to say, but it's something you might say to a psychiatrist, but not the cops. You know what I'm saying?

Unless you're being sarcastic. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, if I did do it, I suppressed the memory, I guess. That could be sarcasm. In writing, that looks terrible. It's a bad read. If you're ever brought in, and I've noticed this a few times,

if you're ever brought in to be interrogated over a murder, don't be sarcastic. No. Because on black and white, it comes across real bad. Go ahead and skip that part. Go ahead and skip that shit. He said that Yancey recalled Wallraven and illustrated his ability to block recall by describing an incident where he fought with his father, but he did not remember the incident until years later when his sister reminded him.

So they're going over that kind of shit. Like, you might have blocked it out. So they end up going again to the jury. And this is this time the exact jury he wanted. Different place. All white. Six men. Six women. to the jury and this is this time the exact jury he wanted different place all white six men six women and they find him guilty of murder again again um they find him guilty of murder here and uh this time though the jury comes back you sir may fuck off uh life in prison yeah with the possibility of parole it's 20 to life so basically life sentence in prison with the possibility of parole.

It's 20 to life. So basically life sentence in prison. When he goes up for parole, that's going to look real bad on his record. Sure in the fuck, yeah. Raped and strangled three women in the bathtub. He's going to end up having to be in there longer than the guy in Shawshank.

He's going to be there a while. He is going to be there a motherfucking while so um he's sitting in there that was 1983 that happened that's uh the end of 83 he's sentenced he's still in jail on may 18th 2004 yeah about 21 years later um when actually it was april 18th is when this happened uh a correctional officer comes to his cell and finds him that he hanged himself with a used torn bed sheet. Wow. And he is dead. He's in his segregated cell at the Autry State Prison and tore a bed sheet, fucking used it as a noose and strung his ass up.

I got a question though james have there been any more uh stranglings uh in atlanta i don't i'm sure there's been a few since then i mean who knows but uh i don't know i mean that's it's fucked up we don't even know what happened uh after that now one thing i have to say here is don't take it out on this guy because if you look it up there is is a doctor in Oklahoma City, an internal medicine specialist named Dr. James Walraven. Please, it's not his fault.

It's not him. He didn't strangle three women and leave them in bathtubs. Don't take it out on him is all we're asking. If you're looking for a doctor in Oklahoma City, maybe go to him extra just because he's had a tough break. He can't help it.

When did he do that? What year did he kill himself? 2004, he offed himself. Certainly after DNA. Did we? We should. I mean, granted, it's convicted. They're not going to test it.

They won't, will they? They won't test it unless there is a legal reason to. He would have to have had a case where he thinks that he can prove that dna would exonerate him which in this case is one where if it wasn't him that would definitely exonerate him but um you have to you also have to have like you have to be able to put that case together you have to be able to put the appeal together you have to be able to either figure it out on your own or get a lawyer or get one of the guys at jail to help you it's not easy to do so i don't know either he did it and he just said fuck it and offed himself uh you know or he didn't do it and he got tired of fucking sitting there forever and he's not that stable

anyway and he often we don't know we don't know what happened but uh i mean seems like he probably did it you know what i'm gonna use in the words of James Gann. I'm about 70, 80% sure he did it. Right? Is that about right? Yeah. I'm about 70, 80% sure. I just don't like the logistics of times and where he was at the time and the facts surrounding. It's too much.

It's a lot. I don't like the bath water. The only explanation I can think about with the bath water is that out of habit, he turned it on and waited for it to get really hot. That's the only thing. Out of habit, he let it get really hot. Really? If it was really hot with steam coming out of it and then you left it there, it would still be warm probably an hour later, I would assume. Maybe.

Maybe. But on top, it would still be cold. It would have that cold, right, that top layer. It would be warm like deep i don't know so when i take a bath i sit there till that motherfucker's freezing and then i get out well how long does that take from hot 20 minutes really from hot it goes to freezing in 20 minutes yeah super fucking cold well i don't know the bath guy so yeah if it wasn't i'm if it wasn't like scalding hot when i got in there to where like uncomfortable uh it's it's it's a 20 minute bath at best that shit's okay a minute so it would be

very difficult for him to have done that murder absolutely santos murder and in my opinion although she was the only one that wasn't raped so it's like you look at that and you go well maybe he didn't do that one because that one didn't have rape. Well, someone else in the area at that time had that exact same idea to leave someone the exact same way face down in the fucking tub. It's exactly the same as the other ones, but without the rape. But physically, if the water, if water takes a half hour to to get cold, he didn't do it. Period. That's it. Because already at the tennis player so place on the other side of the town mix in all the personality flaws that he's gotten the childhood uh terrible abuse he's absolutely the right kind of guy that does this shit i'm not saying he's not capable of it but or wasn't capable but i mean maybe he could have done two and then the third one he's like who the fuck had the same idea as me right you know that son of a bitch that son of a bitch and almost got him off but either way um that is that is uh clarkston georgia and that is a goddamn crazy tale of a guy who the options are he is either a horrible multiple

rapist strangler or he just fucks his sister one of the two those are the those are the only two options that could be true here so yeah when we come down to either either multiple murderer either serial killer or sister fucker we're really i wish i could name the episode serial killer or sister fucker but i can't unfortunately damn it thanks a lot apple thanks dicks but on the other hand too james serial killer or sister fucker sister fucker is just one step away from serial killer i mean if if you lined up like three people in front of me and he said one of these people is a serial killer and the only information i had to go on is which one of them fuck their sister i might take that guy that's aberrant behavior maybe if that is too i don't know there's certainly a problem this is the only behavior you can make fun of and no one will

get mad at you for like oh well you're shaming or you're making fun of or you're doing that you can't fuck your sister you shouldn't fuck your sister and no one absolutely no one thinks it's a good idea to fuck your sister it's the only thing where they're like well don't make fun no well yeah you shouldn't because it's like sometimes people will come at us like we're elitist like we're not elite jimmy works for the electric company we're not fucking elitist by any chance stretch of the imagination neither of us went to college i have a ged GED. We're morons, and we're blue-collar idiots. We know this shit. The only thing elite about me, James,

is my wet wipes. Outside of that, I am trash. People will come at us like, you know, some of that stuff, like, we'll make fun of people for having a shit bucket on the porch. And they're like, maybe it's an economic thing. And it's like, no, no, no.

You have five people that live in a house. You should be your number one priority. Let's get a toilet in here. Number one priority. That's the very first question. Pool our money and make a shit fucking receptacle. Let's do it. So I don't want to hear that shit.

And this is the same way. Fucking your sister has nothing to do with economics or anything else. You just shouldn't fuck your sister. It has to do that that it's about the only thing in society we could go it shows poor character and no one can argue with you no one can have a defense or anything poor character fucking your sister shows poor character on both of you the two of you need to figure out the fuck out the two of you oh if she's letting you do it that's not any better she's just as bad this is all disgusting so either way that is clarkston georgia and that is a goddamn mess of a bathtub strangling so um if you like that

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slash crime and sports and if you just want to get a shout out be a producer have our undying love respect and affection you can do that over at paypal using our email address crime and sports at gmail.com and if you want to get a hold of the show, plenty of ways to do that. We are at Murder Small on Twitter, at Small Town Pod on Facebook, and at Small Town Murder on Instagram. That said, I need it, Jimmy. Oh, boy. After all of this mess, I need to hear good stuff. I need good things. Tell me the list of the most wonderful fucking people who would never, ever strangle us with our own hair ribbons and drown us in a bathtub.

Hit me with them jimmy this week's executive producers are justin miller uh who hasn't been uh donating on on page on paypal uh within the last a couple of years i don't know he just wanted he wanted to remind us that he's still here too and he justin miller i think he was a little jealous of uh ten can dan getting so much uh uh pro well thank you justin miller and it's goddamn fine to have you back in town as well thank you as you uh jordan bennett cynthia o'brien uh shawna hoops samantha uh carjala i think it's a j i don't think it's carjala i'm sure it's carjala right i don't know it's in front of you i'm not i'm gonna turn you can wheel your chair over here i'll take a closer look but other producers this week are uh producers this week are Spencer Westcott lost a family member and also had his birthday, and his family wanted him to know that they love him or her.

Well, most of his family. Jesus Christ. Sorry. That was a good joke. Come on. It's a fucking... What is our show's about? Give me a break.

Yeah, it's pretty great, but... That was a goddamn good joke and you know it. Other producers also are Alexa Hiss. James Marder, Jessica Daniels, Krista Walker had a birthday. Happy birthday. Happy birthday. Kelsey Kautz. Greg Robin.

Jeff Bezos is a MILF. Arianne Crackiolis. Nope, I'm not going to get that right, Senora Melanie Martin, who does not sound Spanish or Mexican. She could be, but she is also Ricardo Yarmillo's Jaina, so happy birthday. Happy birthday. Ashley Vio, Todd Robertson, Thomas DeMello is like Carmen Sandiego traveling everywhere this week. He is in Paraguay. Nancy Weaver, Frank the South African Bird this week. He is in Paraguay. Nancy Weaver.

Frank the South African bird watcher. That makes me laugh so much. My bang maid, whatever the fuck that is. Frank. Always sunny. Oh, yes. That's right. Can I bring my bang maid? General Booger Johnson.

Janice Hill. Thomas Smith. Brittany Coffey. David Adlam. Oh, boy. Tiergy. Tiergy, Thorson Holland. No, that's not. Yes. Mr. Cotter's mustache.

That's pretty good. Andrea Martinez. Rabbi Shmulevich has an anal fissure. Oh, no. Wow. You don't want that. No one wants that. Heather Norton, Jennifer Ward, Jessica Finch. Happy birthday, no. Wow. You don't want that. No one wants that. Heather Norton, Jennifer Ward, Jessica Finch.

Happy birthday, Jess. She also made me a very nice eyeglass holder, James, with skulls on it. Oh, that's so sweet. Thank you. Maria Rasper, Jake Morgante. Happy birthday. Monica Frickevich. What?

Pixie DeLeon. Scott Sullivan. Stymie and Petey. That's from, I know them. Those are our gang. Where's Elf Alpha? Yeah, and also Charles Bird. And the rest of this, James, it's so deep. Victoria Mintkin.

Vic, nope. V? Conrad? Cole, oh boy. Varela. Ryan Levitt. Jim Richmond. Sam with two Ms. I imagine that's whore. Ryan Wachish. Yeah, that's Varela. Ryan Levitt. Jim Richmond. Sam with two Ms.

I imagine that's whore. Ryan Wachish. Yeah, that's a whore. Rebecca Gilbertson. Poor name. Hannah McGrath. Robin Hall. Jacqueline Brothers.

Patrick C. Brianna Kirby. Janina Kitamaki. Nope. Wow. Hope Rodriguez. Sophie Alderman. Dalton King.

Kristen Reibelt. Anya, Olin Leon, Maddie Hensley, Axel Gessner. This is brutal. Frankie motherfucking Kelly, Stephanie Miller, Tamara Hoare, Aiden Hoare, Suze Barrett. Quickly, somebody's name was H-O-A-R last week week and we were like that's gotta be whore and so we gave everyone without a last name a last name of whore forever so we're not we're not calling you a whore that's just the way the shout outs go from now on so desiree collins jasper marickel marickel b1 sauce and so they won uh alssa Hartzell, Corey Garner, Blythe Lee, Nikki Hoare, Brett Gobble, Rachel Zank, Matthew Rogers, Angel Sorrells, Elizabeth Longmire, Angela Hoare, Mike Anderson, Beavis McKenzie, Mark P. Parambo, Adam Hammond, Evan Hoare, Brittany Booth, Crystal Hodges, Mackenzie Kenzo, 1127, Collinson, Collison, Jean, Reed, fuck, Candice, Knott, Knott's Finn, Din, your mouth.

Okay, gotcha. Oh, there you go. They're nuts, James. They're nuts. Corey McFetridge. I think I get it. Every time, though, it's never going to end. I'm never going to get those right, and I'm going to do my best forever.

Mansfield Fisher, Brandon Myers, Eric Pellerin, Stacy Quinn, Casey Sutliff, Junior Rodriguez, Mary Como, Janelle Rutherford. Yes, Sutliff. Junior Rodriguez. Mary Como. Janelle Rutherford. This is a fucking nightmare. Why is this so hard for me? Rutherford. Yes, right? I'm not...

Yeah, sure. I've lost my goddamn place now. What did I do? What did you do to yourself? Kelly Howe. Tremaine Lassley. Christy O'Neal, Ashley Douglas, Travis Suter, Brooke Nichols, Samantha Garjala. That's right. Nick Poblaki, Gerald Hamm, Ferna.

Ferna. Fierna. Oh, Christ. Why is this so hard for me? I don't know. I don't know. I'm never going to say. Names are hard.

They're not words that your brain registers so you have to cortez amy whore nick whore katherine west christoph christopher schwartz god for the whores evaristo gutierrez l andrew augustus james that's what i've always said josh whore silas stevens joe whore brandy whore elizabeth jessman eggplant mcgee Josh Hoare, Silas Stevens, Joe Hoare, Brandi Hoare, Elizabeth Jesman, Eggplant McGee, David Gierscher, Tony Littles, Jesse Sercaster, Lee Tran, Travis Lalonde, Elizabeth Celeste, Lindsay Elise, Liz, Liz and Andy Hoare, Ryan Varela, K.O. Hoare. The Hoares. Ryan Daly. Hannah Stelmacher. Walker Hoare. Brittany Stoll. Rosie McKittrick. Fuck.

Bobette Smith. Roadworks. Nicole Pruitt. Pruitt? I can't tell if that's a O or a U. I'm an idiot. Andrea Taylor. Paul McMillan.

John Twitty. Abby Amsel, Tommy Witcher, Miss Call Me Kevin? What? Sure. Mrs. Hi, Kevin. Susan Keok, Angela Veld, Jordan Watts, Marcina Hopkins, Rihanna, nope, that's Raya, Braden Berg, Heather O'Donnell. Sefi Pondo. Tracy Bullock. Chris Salvin.

Heidi Meyer. Aaron Simpson. Chris Breimeier. Leah Hoare. Tori Hoare. Katriana Watt. Danny Watson. Steph Hoare.

Christy Lavelle. Brian Kenney. Tommy Likes Butts. Good for you, sir. Amy Collins. Molly Theresets. Good for you, sir. Amy Collins. Molly Therese. Sarah Yannacani. Clarissa Fuller. Michael Bouchert.

Kenzie Kniff. Brian Lumpkin. Brandon Smith. Alan Heath. Linda Keenan. Alex Dorian. Faith Bevington. Nate Atkinson. Christy Hicks,

Miguel Wenneker, Zachary Goudet, Tanner Grover, Beth Smith, Beth Williams, Always Slappin', there you go, Michelle Hopper, Carrie Ann Hoare, Brad Linder, Sarah Hoare, Tracy Annette O'Connor. That's easy enough. We're almost done. We're so goddamn close. Thank God. I can wipe my brow.

Rob Dean, Susanna GP, Brittany Marino, Megan Hoare, Janet Drennan, Brandon Thompson, Daniel with no last name. That is Hoare. Allie Bennett, Karen Welm, Mike Worthen, Jamie Hoare, Rachel Howell, Shanna Hopps, Hoops, Derek Truck, what is this, Tucker Stern, That Pete Guy, and also, we're going to say it one more week, Dan, Ten Can Dan, he's the fucking best. You guys, and all of our patrons, you guys are fantastic. Thank you for everything you do for us.

We can't do it without you. God's honest truth. Thank you. Thank you so much. Goodness Christ. They come through every week for us we can't do it without you god's honest truth thank you thank you so much goodness christ you they come through every week for us and uh thank you like their sister they treat us like well i mean you got to be true to your sister that's the thing they really take care of us you be true to your sister i think maybe that's why the guy killed himself by the way it had nothing to do with whether he did it or not or jail. It's just that it's in forever public court documents.

Him saying, I couldn't have fucked them women because I only fucked my sister. Maybe he couldn't take the shame in that anymore. I'm not sure. That man went to prison, James, only having sex with his sister. If that's true, that's the saddest fate i've ever heard in my life it's not is it sadder that he is it sadder that he murdered himself in prison being wrongfully accused or sadder that he just fucked his sister i don't know if those are mutually exclusive or what i think both of those are equally sad

I'm gonna go with equal equal time on that one holy shit what if what if someone wanted to tell you what's sad or fucking your sister or that how could they get a hold of you Jimmy how could that happen you can find me at Wisman sucks w-h-i-s-m-a-n sucks on Twitter and Instagram thank you guys so much for for supporting these shows and doing absolutely what you do so that we can do what we do. Where can they find you to tell you the same stuff? I'm at Jimmy P is funny, or you can just look up the show. Just Google the show, and you'll see. It'll say we're the hosts.

I mean, it's going to bring us up at some point if you Google it, and then you can find us from there. There's all sorts of links to social media shit. Save yourself some time. Just Google the show. Check it out. Head over to shut up and give me murder dot com. Do all that stuff. What you should do, though, is make sure you keep coming back each and every week because we will.

And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.