Small Town Murder - #240 - The Threesome From Hell - Gresham, Oregon

Episode Date: September 9, 2021

This week, in Gresham, Oregon, horrified bystanders watch as a dead & naked body is tossed off a 75 foot cliff, and into the river below. This starts a mystery that travels across several states, and brings us to some of the most troublesome, awful people that can be imagined. In the end, the question is, was this a premeditated act of extreme violence, or a case of a swinging night & wild threesome gone wrong?  Along the way, we find out that Italians are everywhere, that you should look for witnesses before dumping a body, and that finding your soul mate, may not always the best thing for the world!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman  New episodes every Thursday!  Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail]  Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!  Follow us on...  twitter.com/@murdersmall  facebook.com/smalltownpod  instagram.com/smalltownmurder  Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Gresham, Oregon, where horrified onlookers watched a nude body being dumped from a 75-foot cliff into the water below. But the question is, was this a brutal murder or a swinging good time gone wrong? Welcome to Small Town Murder. hello everybody and welcome back to small town murder yay okay indeed jimmy yay indeed my name

is james petrogallo i'm here with my co-host i am jimmy wissman thank you folks so much for joining us today we are excited as usual i'm excited too because we're going all the way back to oregon it's been a while pacific northwest we're going clear across the country from georgia to oregon there and uh we'll explain the town because people in oregon are going to go gresham that's not a small town that's not so calm down it was then so relax and we'll we'll tell you about that but first of all thank you everybody for tuning in, and thank you for everything you've done for us this week and always.

First of all, if you haven't yet, please, whatever app or platform you're listening to, give us stars. I don't know how many stars they all use. Five stars, 10 stars, 20 stars, whatever it is, do that. It helps the show, helps drive us up the charts. You definitely want to head over to shutupandgivememurder.com. Why, James? Right now.

You need tickets to the virtual live show. Oh, boy. September the 16th, next Thursday. September the 16th, 2021. A week away? It's a week away. We're very, very excited. We have a wild case picked out.

It is a regular small town murder episode, and it's going to be a ball live show right at your house or wherever the hell you want to watch it. I don't care. You can watch it in your office. Live show in your office? Who could do that? It'll be available for 72 hours after that as well. If you want to watch over the weekend, you can do that. Everybody there, shut up and

give me murder.com is where you get that. Let's go! Get those tickets right now and get your merch as well. Also, listen to the shows on the Upside Down Digital Network that we have put out here. First of all, Game of Crimes, hosted by Morgan Wright and Steve Murphy. They have crazy stories from all over. I mean, they're both in law enforcement forever, but they're just cool guys. They're cool guys who have a lot of weird perspective on things.

I mean, one of them had a hit on him put out by Pablo Escobar. Have any of you ever had a hit put on you by Pablo Escobar? Probably not. They're more interesting than we could be, so you should listen. Not as funny, but they're more interesting. We'll put it that way. They're sweethearts. And they are funny, too.

Check it out. Game of Crimes every Monday there. And also Life After Happy Face everyiday where it's uh melissa moore and dr laura petler and they're going to give you definitely unique angles on on uh crimes and murders and all sorts of stuff i i mean i don't know if again i've never had a hit put on me by pablo escobar and neither of my parents was a serial killer so these people have yeah not a serial trucker who fucking you never know there could be a trail of bodies Jimmy

so check those out on the Upside Down digital network wherever you listen to podcasts and as well as that you definitely and I mean definitely

want to go to patreon.com slash crime and sports this week and sign up you'll get access to everything both shows

bonuses and the whole back catalog but start this week because it's extra fun. First of all, we talk about the XFL for Crime and Sports, which is 2001 version with all their silly teams and rules and Vince McMahon and it's wild. And then on Small Town Murders, we talk about Love After Lockup,

which is one of our favorite things to do for any bonus all year. We recap the season of love after lockup and tell you you don't even need to watch it we'll just guide you through it it's that fun but you should watch it that's all at patreon.com slash crime and sports and you'll get a shout out at the end of the show jimmy will mispronounce your name while trying his bet very best to read it perfectly so you want to do that or you can just get a shout out if you want to do that at paypal using our email address crime in sports at gmail.com quickly the disclaimer this is a comedy show it is it's a we're comedians we are we are we're gonna make jokes so expect jokes and expect

death but the thing is of how you mix them is the art of the whole thing sure and we we go out of our way not to make fun of the victims or the victims families why because we're assholes but we're not scumbags that's how it works that's it right there you know there's nothing funny about the actual murder but there's a lot funny about thinking you can get away with the murder and uh maybe how you go about trying to do that so why would you do it? Why would you do that? That said, I think it's time. Let's just do it. Let's sit back. Jimmy, let's let loose and shout,

Shut up and give me murder! Let's do it! Let's go on a trip, Jimmy! I'd love that. Coming from Georgia all the way to the Pacific Northwest. So the southeast to the northwest, if you're not from the States. That is quite the trip.

This is well over 2,000 miles we're traveling here. It's a bit, yeah. Which is like most of Europe, basically. It's a four and a half hour flight there. This is like Italy to England we're going. So it's a very, very different place. And this is Gresham, Oregon. Now, people in Oregon portland people will go

gresham's not a small town like i said and you're right it's not a small town right now there's about 110 000 people right now but it's one of those suburbs that has just exploded in the last 20 years really with people yeah 20 to 30 years it has just gone crazy there was like nobody there in 1970 some people there in 1980 and then through like 90 and then on, it really blew up. This happens when it's still a small town. So I don't want to hear anything. And it happened in a rural area, too. Trust us.

The whole thing reeks of small town-ness in this particular episode. It's not that anymore. No. This is northwestern Oregon. It's just outside of Portland. It's a suburb now. And then it was a suburb, but it wasn't really connected by anything. It was, you know, kind of out there on its own. And now it's land between it and the city now. Yeah. And if you know Portland at all, it's the real estate there has gotten very expensive. So all that all that stuff's going to fill right in quickly. Anything like that. This is about 25 minutes to portland so you know suburb about two hours to eugene oregon and one direction and then two hours and 15 minutes to eddyville oregon in the other direction which was episode 183 oh august 5th 2020 that was a long time ago yeah it

was it was a very long time ago i still lived across on the other side of the country then. It was a long time ago. This is in Multnomah County here. Area code 503. It's a big area. It's about 23 square miles. There's some big properties, and that is kind of where this takes place. It's like a big rural property all on its own.

Scream all you want. Ain't nobody going to hear you type of stuff here. And the motto here, you know what? I appreciate this in a town. I appreciate when they're honest. And also, they're going to pat themselves on the back a little bit too. Let's see what it is here. Quote, all the murder, but not so much traffic.

Oh, that's good. It's honest. And it's also saying look you're either way there's murder but you know here you're not going to sit and watch it from your car anyway you'll be at home or right in your office so history of this town the area known as gresham first settled in 1851 by some brothers and uh they claimed this land under the Donation Land Claim Act of 1850. And other pioneer families started coming after that. This is wild.

You know, this is before it's settled. This is the forest. I mean, there's bears and shit out here. Lewis and Clark brought these guys with them. Well, Lewis and Clark were here 80 years earlier, or 50 years before them. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, this is the trail. Probably the same thing.

We're going to follow. Absolutely. It first became known as Powell's Valley, which that was the brother's name. They were Jackson and James Powell. And in 1884, a local merchant petitioned the United States Post Office Department to get a post office in his store. office department to get a post office in his store and he offered to name it after the postmaster at the time general walter q gresham if they gave him a post office he's like i'll even name it after the boss i don't give a fuck i just need people to come in and buy stamps and shit and then look and buy some impulse items it is fascinating how many people worked for the post office after war stuff

and it it seems like is that is it because they knew that that was going to be just longevity and a career it's never it's been the same always i i have an uncle who was in the air force for 25 years and then quickly transitioned right into a job in the post office and he's been there for 10 15 years now it's just it's a you're used i think it's just you know it's a federal job it's a stable job benefits job security baby yeah i think it's one of those things you know it's a unstable world that's a stable job for the most part especially back then and when they were expanding the post office and trying to that's all the it's the only way people could talk to each other yeah charlie utter knew the game charlie utter knew it he set up shop and he's like god damn it run me a shipping center i want a mail route that is i am going to that's his dream a mail that's wild through dangerous country if we're talking about deadwood in case you don't know

jimmy's finally watching deadwood it's unbelievable and uh i'm very excited so whenever he texts me with like something about deadwood i'm like oh he knows about that now this is great it's so long now we can share everything i feel like it takes forever it's so much time that you have to devote to the shit it's so great and you know i didn't watch these shows james you love every second of it don't you jimmy you love every goddamn second this is why i skipped all hbo shows the sopranos the wire deadwood because it's so much of your fucking life you gotta invest and then it's over what and you can? And you can't stop watching it, can you? No.

It's a nightmare. See what happens to Al here. So anyway, at the same time, other members of the community also secured a post office. So they had two separate, and this isn't like on a computer system where they could go, oh, you guys already have a post office in the works. It doesn't work like that. This is just separate people in separate offices, so they don't know any better if you miss the letter you have no fucking idea that yeah that's that's all there is to it so they got a

post office called campground so they almost named the town campground was almost the name of the goddamn place which is uh refers to the religious camp meeting ground located there and the valley's usefulness as a stop-off for travelers on their way to portland uh then the post office realized its mistake revoked the campground one and we're like let's name one after the boss there that sounds better so 1905 they became grisham and uh that at that time the population of the town was only 365 so yeah it was farming berries and grapes and shit is what people were growing here. It was very old-timey, basically. And they had trains between Gresham and Portland on an hourly basis.

Wow. There you go. Every hour. Every hour they were going back and forth. It was the commuter train, basically. So, pretty neat. The population has gone crazy. were going back and forth that was the commuter train basically so pretty neat uh the population has gone crazy and that's why i normally don't get this into it but it's just wild how it's blown up

here 1950 they had 3 000 people 1960 4 000 people yeah not big a big jump 1970 10 000 people wow that's a big jump 1980 33 000 people the secret's out james 1968 or 1990 68 000 people and then today 109 000 people so it's just exploded so this our our whole thing happens in 1989 so it was just at the end of it being a small town but and it happened at the rural edge of the town so that explains that i have some reviews of this town here. Five stars. I moved to the neighborhood in December of 2019. I love that it's not too busy, but close enough to Portland whenever I crave that city feeling.

Gresham downtown is super cute. They have a farmer's market every weekend. It's also pretty close to mountain hood and a short drive to the columbia gorge you can see the person writing that review can't you absolutely we all see that person she's a nice lady super cute she's very nice yeah um i want to check out her etsy shop i never want to live in a town that you call cute super cute yeah not just cute super cute right here's here's five stars uh love love love living in gresham my god we're close to downtown gresham which is adorable and hosted a farmer's market on sundays i already know it was a lady with her love love love wow it's cute and adorable that is

the craftiness of these ladies. This is good stuff. I want to see their scrapbooks. Well, at least one saw what the other one said, and she was like, I'm not going to use Super Cute. I need to go Adorable, I feel like. Because one's from 11 months ago, one's from 12 months ago. Oh, Adorable was used first. So then the other one was like, I got to go with Super Cute.

But they're paying attention. Good for you, reviewers. I have some one stars. Some one stars already, too. And these are just for comedy, obviously, because they have no relation to what it was like in 1989 when the murder happened. So one star. The area is getting overcrowded due to how quick they are building homes. Not to conclude the schools in the area are becoming overpopulated due to the upbringing of homes and families.

I don't know. that's very confusing there's the building of homes and families buying what they mean but yes but it sounds very up the dummy that's a man there's oh yeah there's no punctuation in here that's a guy they're just mad uh here's one star i love when they review a town based on weather like any human being you went there the weather's fixed it's happening you went there so you agreed to the weather when you went there that's i'm sorry i wish the mayor would fix the weather it's like there's no way to fix that one star it's really bipolar it rains really hard for a minute and is sunny two minutes later. Okay. One star for that? I'd like it to rain all day or be sunny all day.

Take a pick, weather. That's not how it is here. Then fucking move. It's bipolar. What is that? Bipolar. No, it's called weather is what it is. You're in the Pacific Northwest.

That's what happens. People in this town, right now, 031 people here so my god it has grown and it's pretty much you know connected to portland at this point right it has uh more than doubled since 1990 it's really blown up uh i've never seen this before in a big place like this the male and female population is exactly 50 5050. Really? Totally 50-50. I don't know if that's on purpose. They have like a checklist. Nope, nope.

No, no, no. Sorry, buddy. We have not allowed him. We're waiting. You got a lady with you? It's like a club now. You got a lady with you? No, it's just you?

No, you got to wait a minute then. I'm sorry. We got to wait. Cover charge for you. We got to even out the numbers. Wait a minute. Yeah. It's just some guy standing out there with like a shiny button down dress shirt on.

Like, come on, man. We fucking stand out here waiting for chicks to arrive. The guy with his brother got to wait for a girl and her sister to move to town. That's all. Just a clipboard at the door. I love it. And then I see the Blazing Saddles toll booth when I see that, but a guy in front of it. Yeah.

Somebody's going to have to go back and get a shitload of dimes. That's what I say. Just in the middle of the woods. Shitload of dimes. So median age here is about 37 and a half, which is a little younger than normal. Yeah.

Seems like it's a slight bit cheaper than Portland here, so maybe if you're a young family, you'd move out here type of deal. Married population, little under the normal 50-50, little less than that. Higher divorce rate, though, which is, I don't know what that says about anything, but there it is. Says they figured it out. They figured out that marriage sucks. I think they got it. I think they pretty much received that message and acted accordingly,

I believe. Good job, Gresham. Way to get it together. Way to really figure it out. Recognize your failures and move on. That's how it works. It's key to life. So all the stats are pretty normal as far as, you know, people, children and all that shit. So race of this town, it's about 65% white, which is a little over the national average.

5.3% black, which is under the national average. About 4% Asian, which I'm surprised it's not at least at average in the Pacific Northwest, but I'm not sure how Portland is, if there's as many Asian people in Portland as there is in Seattle, or I'm not sure. So Hispanic, though, is 19.6%. Is that right? Yeah, it's a big population there, so second to white people. And that's saying something for the Pacific Northwest, because the one thing there are up there is a lot of white people.

You betcha. You'll see them. So 37.1% of the people here are religious. They don't list, though, in their list of religions here, they don't list, like, Sasquatch as a religion. No? I'm not sure maybe that's why it's a little light maybe that'll fill in the average up to 50 50 bunch of squatchers they allowed sasquatching as a as a religion here i think they just call it squatching with like

with an apostrophe like there's no g not doing that they are sasquatching as far as i'm concerned i understand what the term is and i won't use it i think even on the sign of the building there's no g it's an apostrophe i will not dignify that i won't the squatchers squatchers you fucking squatchers uh i saw a squatcher squatting over there so uh yeah it's it's pretty even out there's a few catholics because there's a high hispanic population i think but other than that a couple of pentecostals a presbyterian here there 0.9 percent jewish almost we just missed it we just missed it it's very disappointing you know it is it's very disappointing uh well what the hell I don't know the words.

Point nine is close enough. Point nine is close enough. Hey, there you go. So, yeah, last election here. It's the Portland area. It's this county. So about 79 percent Democrat in the last election, 18% Republican, about 3% Independent. Unemployment rate is a little bit over the national average. Right now it's about 6% everywhere else. It's a little over 7% here. Median household income is pretty close to average. It's normally about $57,500. Here it's $50,675.

Not bad. Cost of living, though, the housing is bad. It's outrageous, right? Yeah, absolutely. $100 has averaged the par regular. Here, it's $147.8 for housing. Very high. Median home costs $341,700.

Shit. So if you need to put a sign on your door that says, gone squatching, we have for you the Gresham, Oregon, real estate report. All right, here. Your average two-bedroom rental goes for about $1,321. So that is above the national average. Yeah. It's pretty expensive.

It's a bit steep, but not in accordance with the housing because the house is like to buy or way high i found a two bedroom two bath 1334 square foot like trailer it's a big trailer with landscaping like it's been there a long time it's not going anywhere it's got like trees and bushes and shit around it. So somebody really put some work into this. $69,900 for that. Decent. That's a bargain in this town. Yeah.

Because I found another one here. Three bedroom, one bath, 1,090 square feet. And it's a freestanding house with not a trailer, just a house with a foundation and everything. Decent. Not great. $334,900 for that. Three bedroom, one bath. Yeah, that is, wow.

It's not like anything fabulous. 1,000 square feet, James. It's not super cute or adorable. So if it's not going to be super cute or adorable, what are we talking about, you know? That's $300 a square foot, right? It's a lot. Yeah, a square foot right it's a lot yeah almost yeah that's a lot it's fucking crazy i found a four bedroom three bath 2645 square foot

house it's nice updated has like that wall that you can like the glass door where the whole wall can come out and it's all outside indoor outdoor flow there it's nice updated decent yard it's on two and a half acres of land which is now you're talking nice 949 900 bucks so holy shit 9 50 for that bad boy my god wow why by the way why are they wishing why do they want sasquatch to appear i don't know it's always people that live in the woods it's like do you want that to be something you have to worry about when you go outside? An eight-foot-tall gorilla man who's going to tear your head off? They want the picture and then to run away so they can sell the picture. That's all they want.

I'd be, fingers crossed, I'd be going outside and there's no Sasquatch. Even if I knew there was Sasquatches, I'd be like, oh, no, no, I don't believe in that. No, no. No. I don't want to even think about that happening. You've seen Harry and the Hendersons? You've got a lot of work to do on your house if you get it home. Oh, no doorways are going to accommodate this guy.

Nothing. He's going to put head mark holes in every one of your doorways. That's what's going to happen. Your car's going to have a head mark in it. Everything. Going to ruin all of your door trim like Courtney from Love After Lockup. Listen to that. Things to do in this town.

Yeah. I found it, Jimmy. It's just like every other one. No, no, no, no to that. Things to do in this town. Yeah. I found it, Jimmy. It's just like every other one. No, no, no, no, no. I found, because it's so, why is this here in the middle of the forest in Oregon? Fiesta Italiana. Why not? The Italian festival.

We're everywhere, Jimmy. We're not going away. I don't know. Give you guys a reason to sell meatballs sell sell meatballs there's a link on here specifically it's like tickets you know home buy olive oil there's literally i swear to god it's sponsored by an olive oil company and that's one of it's like home tickets you know info buy oil that's those are the four links on the top of the page. It's fucking hilarious. I shit you not, it's Fiesta Italiana is selling Italian olive oil products from Liguria.

And I'm not, Jimmy. That's all it's about. It's just selling the- Olive oil purchased. Is that a button or not? The whole festival is just Liguria. That's it. So they're sponsoring it.

And I mean, we like olive oil. Yeah. It's nice. Is it for the kids, James? Is it for the kids? Well, I'm going to get into this. Hey, it's for they're sponsoring it. I mean, we like olive oil. Yeah. It's nice. Is it for the kids, James? Is it for the kids? Well, I'm going to get into this. Hey, it's for the children, Jimmy. Let's talk about this.

All right. Admission to this little event here. It's $5. Yeah. $12 and under. Free. It's for the children, everybody. You bring those kids.

We don't want no money from the kid. What are you fucking kidding me? It's for the children, everybody. What the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, they got to have an adult, and the adult's going to shit in the water body, and we got to rent fucking water bodies, so we got to charge an adult $5, but for the kids? Oh! Put it in my pocket or nothing.

Does it benefit the kids? Does it go into a kid's charity? It's enough to cover olive oil and shitters. That's all we could do. You know what I mean? That's it. What do you want from me? There's always a reason that the kids are involved with it's not going in my pocket we're helping the kids what the what are you talking about unbelievable so i feel like we all feel like

everybody feels like we're corrupt so we're all like we all have to go it's not for us we're not scamming and it's for kids don't think this is like a fucking racket please come back like my uncle tony it's literally what i feel like it is so uh that's how i feel anyway like i need to tell people i'm not it's not like a we're not i don't have like a scheme organized or anything i donate it's fucking ridiculous we just missed it it was like last week too oh Oh. It was featuring a band called Mabrascatu. There's three fucking consonants in a row in the beginning of the goddamn word, which is not,

I've never seen that in Italian before. Mabrascatu, which is Old World Italian meets New World Indie Folk Rock. That's what it says. I don't know what that means. Old World Italian. So it's like mandolin music mixed with like indie rock.

I don't understand how that works. They play the Godfather theme for three hours straight, but they throw in a little bit of electric guitar in there. That's what it is. I feel like it's just a grungy version of Ae Cumpare over and over. Ae Cumpare. And they do it wearing wearing Kurt Cobain

wigs that's what I was going to say just wearing like a flannel shirt flannel shirt and haven't bathed in a couple of days

that's all that's how you do it it said let's see thank you to all that attended Fiesta Italiana this year

we hope you had a great time and will continue to support this event in the future also a big thank you to all of our sponsors volunteers vendors Fiesta Italiana this year. We hope you had a great time and we'll continue to support this event in the future. Also, a big thank you to all of our sponsors, volunteers, vendors,

Mebrascato and Cedarville Park. All of them. And make sure to buy fucking olive oil, by the way. What's wrong with you? We had, they had, by the way, I love this. There will be Italian food,

wine, beer vendors, and in bold-faced children's activities. It's for the fucking children. You lousy bums. It's the only thing in bold-faced. I love it. Why do you guys do it?

And they're saying there's a wall of wine. That sounds good. That sounds delicious. Do we lick it off the wall? I don't know if it's pouring out of the wall or it's like the chocolate fountain at Golden Corral. You just put your lips up to the wall and suck. Bring a small chair or a blanket for the concert on the lawn. Hey, you know what I mean?

Otherwise, it's going to hurt your ass. You don't want to hurt your ass is what we're saying. Drink your wine off this Sherwin-Williams. You can do this. Crime right in this town. What we're interested in. Every time there's an Italian festival, it's so easy to make fun of. That's why I always make sure to put it in there.

I will make fun of my own people before anybody else's. So I don't want to hear any shit when I make fun of you because my own people get it twice as hard. when I make fun of you because it's my own people get it twice as hard so and it's just it's just culturally and social sociologically so it's approved by everyone it's just hilarious why are you guys it's the only there's memes yeah I don't care but there are fucking memes that you see people post they're like ha ha ha that would get you thrown off of any social media platform if it was literally any other group any other group and I'm saying any other group you could pick any

weird group out of there and they'd be like you can't say that about Estonians but for some reason they're like yeah Italians are hilarious America's clowns put your makeup on make me a meatball sandwich and grab that fucking accordion, asshole. Let's hear your James Gandolfini impression, pal.

What do you got? Society's clown. Fuck you, people. That's what it is. You got a big meatball on your nose. Make me a meatball, clown. Hair made of spaghetti. Hey, come on.

Sing the fucking song red dots of marinara on your cheeks little bit on my tie leaking down had some rigatone before I left the house it was saucy what do you want from me so crime rate which

Italians are not contributing to, I promise, because you think they are, but they're not, I swear. Property crime. Property crime's high. It's about one-third higher than average, so it's up there. But violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime, is just below average. So, that's about normal.

So, they'll steal your shit, but it's I don't know it's it's it's Portland it's a little hippie so they'll take it but they'll be like I won't kill you because that'll ruin my karma but I'll take this shit I don't want to fuck up my aura but they're running stop signs on their bicycle but they'll leave you leave your wife alone they won't steal the dogs

from the outdoor cafes that are lining the sidewalks so uh that said nice little safe town, I guess. Let's talk about a murder. Yes, we shall. Let's do this. And like I said, we have to go back here to 1989 for this murder when this was still a smaller town

and where this takes place is like a remote edge on an isolated property. It was adorable, James. It was super cute. It was super cute. Main Street, you should have seen it, Jimmy. Farmer's Market, it was even better than the one now. They had tomatoes the size of your head, Jimmy. Now it's just not anymore.

The soil's not the same. You know how it is. Climate change and all. It's all fucked up. Squatch has been eating the tomatoes. Well, the Squ squash shit ruins the the the iron there's a certain iron balance and a nitrate balance that has to go on in soil and the squash shit destroys every the piss is very acidic and it ruins it pungent pungent squash

piss has just destroyed plants yellow i know it i've seen it it's bad. It's not good, man. So much pneumonia in Squatch Fist. It'll ruin it all. Yeah, it's bad stuff. So to go to check this murder out, we have to go all the way back to October the 7th, 1989. Okay. It's a very different time than it was now in terms of technology. So everybody take your phones out of your hands mentally as far as that goes. Take your phones out of your car. Take your phones out everywhere and only put them in as that goes. Take your phones out of your car. Take your phones out everywhere and only put them in your kitchen and next to your bed.

Okay, because that's where they are. You haven't seen that video unless they played it on the news because there's only like 35 channels even on cable. So it's really a different time. You have no idea what anybody else is talking about because you don't watch the same shit as they watch. You don't. Corey Haim and Corey Feldman are ruling the world. That's what a different time this was. They're literally on top of the world at this moment.

Both were alive and one wasn't near as crazy. It was a different time. The two of them. And yeah, there's obvious things that we think made them crazy also. But still, they were like on the cover of magazines like, the two hottest people in the world. And they're like, what's up? Like, this was that time.

Yeah. Mouth, exactly. So this particular scene we need to set is in Carver, Oregon. See, all the parts is a rural place and then a really small town. Carver is like an unincorporated area. This is just a quick thing. It got absorbed by another town at one point in the 90s, and then the other town fell apart, and it wasn't a town anymore, so then it got returned to its autonomy again like five years

ago. So it's just kind of out there. So it exists again. It exists again on its own carver oregon and i could have been cheeky and fucking made the town carver oregon but it would have been a cheat and i'm not i'm not gonna cheat god damn it so uh it was uh it's a saturday morning it's cold it's october in the morning uh 6 30 in in the morning, about this time, 6 to 6.30, October 7th, 1989. There's a guy named Mike Lawson,

and he's going out for a nice early morning fishing trip, which is, this is one of my favorite things that guys do, by the way. I don't know, women might do it too, but we complain a lot about um like having to get up early and shit like that and then on saturday we're like i'm gonna get up at five and go fishing why yeah and i love fishing but jesus christ what are you tormenting yourself like that for i gotta go to bed early on friday night so that i can get up

fucking crazy early earlier than i would to go to my early on Friday night so that I can get up fucking crazy early. Earlier than I would to go to my job Monday through Friday. That's what I mean. Well, then again, though, maybe these guys are like the hate your wife guys or don't want to be around my kids guys because it's like I'm going to be gone all morning and then once I get home at like 930, 10 o'clock, I'm going to be exhausted. I'm going to eat like a turkey sandwich and I'm going to take like a four hour four hour nap it is so i missed the entire day with everybody and it's saturday maybe that's the reward so i would do i'd go to the lake 9 a.m i'd be back home by three take a nap

till six and then i'm up all night drinking having a great time it was awesome all night drinking it was awesome well maybe that's mike lawson's plans let's find out it's about 6 a.m he's putting his fishing gear in his pickup truck and getting all ready to go and it's not even light out yet no it's it's still it's still uh dark and it's still got like a fog over the area and shit like that and uh you know he's got his coffee heads out he lives in Portland, and he's heading out to Carver. And the place he is going is on the banks of the Clackamas River. And it's rural here in Carver. And there's a bunch of guys who are there already, too. This is like a spot where a bunch of guys have had the same idea.

These people don't know each other. This isn't a group of men meeting together. This is a group of guys who all have the same idea and are there and he's like fuck i'm late there's already 15 boats in the water not boats they fish from the shore here oh really from the banks of the of the river banking it oh they're banking it uh yes so uh he ends up out there and goes they're going for steelhead trout by the way which are yeah delicious they're really good so i don't blame them yeah they're good they're going for steelhead trout by the way which are yeah delicious they're really good so i don't blame them yeah they're good they're like they have a salmony

thing to them they're pretty good and um yeah they're just gonna do all of this and everybody's fishing and he gets there it's the it's the south shore and uh there's a boat ramp up the way here because there are people on boats there's a boat ramp about 300 yards upstream and uh you know that once he gets there the sun comes out a little bit warms it up a little and uh you know the uh the fog is starting to lift drop like it does when the sun comes out and you know all that sort of thing so he's getting ready for a nice this is going to be a peaceful day it's a great day this is a great day the worst that could happen is he's not going to catch any fish and he's going to have a very relaxing day right that's all he's going to do is he's going to be drunk and not have any food that's all it's all it's going to happen so uh yeah you know they're like i said there's still fog though

it's not all cleared up yet and he's he's fishing you know just fishing doing this one after another no no no luck yet basically he's waiting he's waiting he's looking, you know, just fishing, doing this one after another. No luck yet, basically. He's waiting, he's waiting. He's looking around, too, because there's the banks here. And across the way from the banks of this river that he's on, across the river is a big cliff face, basically, that has a road at the top of it. So at this point, he's starting to hear more cars go by on the road up there on the cliff. So, you know, he's just kind of looking up at the cliffs and the fog. And, you know, fog's kind of going by.

It's beautiful. Yeah, it's nice. You can see the top for a second, and then some fog comes, and then it goes. And it's gorgeous. Yeah, when you're fishing, you're looking around, because what else do you do? You're trying to feel something, so you have your eyes free. So, you know, he's looking all around doing his thing here. And it's Oregon Highway 224 runs across the river on top of this cliff. And he's here and stuff. And it's about seven something in the morning while this is going on. It's light out now. He sees what he thinks is like a bluish silver, maybe gray type of hard to tell with the fog and the way the angles of everything are a van, an older van. It's 1989.

This looks like a 70s van that would be if you had it right now, you'd have a very popular Instagram account and have tons of sponsors if you had this van. Like, but in 1989, this is considered avoid that because a guy with a mustache is going to stick his finger up your ass if you go anywhere near that van that's yeah in 89 that's we were all told by our parents to stay the fuck away from vans your face is gonna have rug burns oh you know it it's not gonna be good so he sees this van and he's watching it because it kind of pulls along the uh top of the cliff there so he can see it coming he sees it slow down and stops at a gravel turnout over there there's like you know you can pull off the road yeah and overlook essentially and he watches for a few minutes and he says that the driver's kind of going back and forth and he hears like gravel

being you know if you have a van yeah rear wheel drive you're gonna burn the you know you're gonna shoot some gravel here and there so he says he hears it like going back and forth and back and forth for a few minutes like it's keeps going back and there's gravel and more gravel and fuck is he doing like what is austin powers making a u-turn no, like he's Austin Powers parallel parking instead of three-point turning. He's like a person who cannot parallel park, but they've gotten in at a bad angle and they're like, I can make it work. I just need to straighten it out. I go two inches up and two inches back.

So he's watching all this, probably laughing, probably tapping guys next to him. Like, look at this fucking idiot going back and forth, you know, trying to parallel park. I would think here. Not from around here, are you, boy? Ain't from around here, are you? I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier.

I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery+, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group.

Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth.

With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder,

decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. So he said, you know, it's just weird. He's watching this guy go back and forth or whoever it is in the van doesn't know what the hell is going on. Finally, the van stops and parks and no noise for a minute. So he's just, you know, whatever, fishing, doing his thing, forgets about the van, figures they they got it parked where they wanted it.

And now they're having their breakfast picnic or whatever the fuck they're doing up there. And about 20 minutes later, 15 minutes later, 20 minutes later, he's looking around again. He looks up again toward the cliffs and looks up toward the van. And he sees something very interesting. Now, now it's like, oh, boy, this is very interesting. He sees a man and what looks like a naked person hoisted up over their shoulder. Oh, yeah. Like a fireman's carry.

But what looks like a naked human being um there probably a woman because he sees uh longer hair but it's also who knows so he's thinking yeah it looks like a hot chick or you know it looks like a chick or a guy or somebody there nude what what's up with that is that like a mannequin who the fuck knows what people yeah naked body generally gets your attention. But it gets your attention. And he says he just watches this guy carry this body like a fireman's carry, like we said. You know, kind of carry it to the end. And I'm going to go to the edge of the cliff and stand in there for a second. And then in one motion just throws the body over the cliff side.

Throws a naked human being apparently over the cliff side. the cliff side yeah throws a naked human being apparently over the cliff side not only that on the way down this is crazy he watches it fall it doesn't go all the way down to the river this person catches on a little outcropping that's coming out of the cliff so now he watches the fisherman here mike lawson is watching this person climb down to this outcropping to then shove this body off again and fling it. This is an 80 foot drop, Jimmy. This is a fuck 75 foot drop into the river and then just splash into the river. Yeah. And he's like, what the fuck is going on?

Holy shit. He doesn't see any of us, you yeah are you seeing this shit he's he was like oh my god this is this is crazy he said he washed it make a splash and he was like holy shit this is the wildest thing i ever saw in my life yeah it's at this point that he also sees that there's another person up there a person who was you know walking with this man able-bodied and clothed and alive and all that sort of thing and not thrown off a cliff can't see if it's a man or a woman but just sees that it's another person there's two bodies moving around yeah two people moving around a van that's kind of all they all they get there

and uh this guy says hey somebody just tossed a body off the cliff he says to the other fishermen like holy shit i can't be the only person who just saw that. He said that nobody paid attention to him. They're all like, what is he talking about? I don't know. I'm fishing. These are people who are like, I'm here to get away from. Nobody says, hey, and I have to do something when I come here.

That's the difference. This isn't work. This isn't home. Were they Italian, James, just minding their business? I think they were like, hey, mind your fucking business, all right? Mind your business. You have to talk to cops and the news. Shut the fuck up.

It's good for the steelhead, all right? They eat it. It's fatty. They can fucking, they get fattened up. You're going to be happy next spring. We'll tell you that much. That's enough now. Shut the fuck up.

Yeah. He said, though, they didn't pay any attention to him. He's literally going i just saw a person throw a body from the cliff didn't get it off completely climb down and then shove it more naked body into the water and it made a splash and they're all like whatever they don't believe him or they don't care or i don't know what the fucking or they're minding their own business i'm not sure uh what it is But then they all took his word for it at some point when the body started drifting into shallow water and being like caught on the side of the bank there. So now they're like, they can see it now floating.

And they're like, holy shit. They start, you know, freaking out at that point. It's lodged in some rocks. And yeah, it's not moving. It obviously doesn't look alive at this point. And if you saw how it went down, it didn't look alive either. And anybody being naked, thrown off a cliff, the person doing it clearly doesn't want that body found for one reason or another. Or at least wants it separated from them if it is found.

Get this away from me. No clothes to tie it to something. And I wasn't here. I'm getting it away from me. So at this point, they see the van peels out and takes off. They hear the gravel go and this thing takes off down the highway. They hear the gravel go, and this thing takes off down the highway. So these fishermen all jump in their cars to run to the nearest telephone.

They're looking for a house, a gas station, something, because nobody has a cell phone. It's 1989. So, yeah, people go to every place they can find with phones. There's tons of calls coming into the sheriff's department about the same thing. So, yeah, the fishermen, some of them go home. Some of them are just like, well, fishing's fucked up today, which is. There's going to be cops all around here, all kinds of noises. The fish are going to run away. Oh, there's going to be divers in the water.

It's over. Yeah, they're not going to run away, Jimmy, I don't think. They're going to get out of the water and run away. They're going to get out of here and get in their vans and peel out in the gravel and take off. So, yeah, the fishing is done for the day. It's all fucked out now. You're done with the fishing. Certainly fucked out.

Certainly. So about half the fishermen go home, and a lot of them stick around to see what's going to happen, because they're like, well, I'm out of my house for the day. I'm not going home. I'm not doing it. It's just not happening. All the kids are awake by now. No.

Whatever happens from here on out, out here is still less of a pain in the ass than what's back there. They're like the Goonies. They're like, it's down here. It's our time down here. Down here on the banks of the river, it's our time. We get to be in this place. It's their time up there on the cliff. It's our time down here down here on the banks of the river it's our time we get to be in their time up there on the cliff it's our time down here so they come back the cops show up and uh there's a bunch of

fishermen there hanging out and uh people get to the scene there's detectives that get there and uh the medical examiner also you know comes in several are there. It's a pretty big operation. This doesn't happen in Carver very often. So a bunch of sheriff's deputies are securing the crime scene, what they think it is. They only know of you saw the body get dumped from up there, and now it's down here. That's pretty much all they have for that. But they still do it. They round up all the fishermen that they can find.

And, yeah, they start taking statements and shit like that uh mike lawson tells the detective quote i heard a van on the ground going back and forth back and forth you know peeling he said then about 20 minutes later there was this guy walking down to the edge of the cliff with a lady over his shoulder and he you know kind of made you know was describing how he showing him how he did it and he said he yelled to the other fishermen hey a guy just threw a body in the water and he said quote everybody looked at me like i was on drugs it is portland yeah yeah they're like whatever bro this guy is just burnt man did you pick whatever you're smoking from around the banks point Point me to where it is.

Yeah, do you have any more is the question. Did you get it all? And another witness said, I kind of heard a splash. Then somebody says, there's a body. And a minute later, there was this body floating along. I have to say, too, a couple of these quotes and stuff came from this book. And I'll mention the book at the end of it. It's called Crime Scenes.

And I think the guy's name is, I can't remember. So it's at the end. I'll definitely plug the book for everybody. But it has a bunch of stories of different murders and weird crime scenes and stuff like that. And it actually, at the end of my research, I found some really good quotes in there that definitely help a lot. So, like these that I just gave you. So the witnesses have sort of a description of the guy here. Mike Lawson gives one as a bearded and burly man with dark brown curly hair.

You know, 89 man. Your typical kind of like ogre from Revenge of the Nerds in 89. It's every guy in 1989. Well, not quite as we'll talk about it here uh he's wearing a plaid shirt and dark pants which is everybody in the northwest ever since they just described the brawny man murdered somebody yeah i believe when lewis and clark crossed into this country the first thing the natives gave did was gift him a gift them both plaid flannel shirts, I feel like.

They stopped in Montana, picked up their Portland gear, and wore that for the next three weeks. You had to. Otherwise, you didn't belong. You would have been attacked. So he said he appeared to be 30 to 40 years old, but hard to tell from the top of a cliff. About 175 to 200 pounds somewhere in there and about they said about five foot seven maybe but hard to tell from a distance so how do you even put a height on that i don't know how you i don't know how you height check a guy from down below because even if you

said okay he's up to here on the on the van you can't tell the angle you're from you wouldn't be able to tell it would look like he's taller than the van from the angle if he's in front of it. You know what I mean? You can't tell where the fuck he comes up to on it. And from 100 feet down, who fucking knows? And he's got an age. Larson's amazing already. I'm impressed.

It's pretty good. Yeah, this guy's got very good eyesight. But about 5'7", but he said that was the hardest to tell because of the distance. Who the hell can tell height? He has no idea. And then he also said, and somebody else said, they're pretty sure they saw a second person with him, but they couldn't tell any descriptive details of the second person,

just that it was another human being moving up around that was clearly with him, obviously. He wouldn't be like somebody just walk up and hang out while he tosses a body off the cliff, and then he casually leaves while a witness saw that probably. So they did say that the van was either silver gray or silver blue and it didn't have any side windows. So the ultimate molester van. Right.

Like nobody can see or hear you. Enjoy the shag, son. This is not good. It's a van that was built for contractors and sold to civilians yeah it's a van that either should have tools inside or like a mural of a pegasus on the outside one of the two or like a metallica album cover or something on the outside i promise you even that van has some sort of tool on the inside. It's just... Yeah, it's battery operated or it's some sort of tool. Something.

There's tools in there. I'll tell you that much. You don't want it used. Yeah, no shit. It was too far away. No, you don't want it used for anyone to see the license plate, but they couldn't tell anything about that, but they said it looked like a 70s van, like a 70s Ford-ish van. One of them said they saw the taillights look like Ford taillights,

but they couldn't be positive. So that's a possible 70s Ford van in the area. So who the hell knows? So they examine the body, obviously. Um, so this is, they examine the body, obviously, uh, the medical examiner gets in there, um, and, uh, gets, puts waiters on to go examine the body actually, wounds during the fall. They said that were obvious because it hit the embankment and went off and was thrown off again. But he could dead. They're still thinking she might have died here. So they're not positive of what's going on here. But they end up removing the body from the water. And they find, the medical examiner finds,

that she died as a result of stab wounds to the chest and abdomen. Oh, my God. Yeah, multiple stab wounds to the chest and abdomen and my god yeah multiple stab wounds to the chest and abdomen and asphyxiation by manual strangulation if that wasn't enough good lord so yeah and if that wasn't enough i will throw you off a cliff and bounce you off a fucking embankment that's this is uh brutal um also her face is badly bruised and both both eyes are blackened both eyes this is just a thorough took a sustained beating before she died absolutely and stabbed and choked and everything else she was naked and her body had bruises with her being uh consistent with her having been held

down as well so there's that not by bindings but by torture manual held down, possibly, they're saying. There's no defensive wounds at all. No defensive stab wounds. So she must have been obviously held or unconscious or something because she could have been beaten into unconsciousness with all of the other wounds that she has and then stabbed and choked. Who knows? They did find this is the only physical evidence they find here they find two sperm heads that they recover from her mouth what so that is very intricate details yeah that is looking close they recover the heads of two

individual sperm uh in her mouth that tails removed apparently yeah just the heads they could find so that is why this yeah that's uh that's what they that's what they have to go on a van of a vague silver 70s ish van with no windows yeah a dude and a possible second person that's somewhere between five foot seven and six foot eight, you know, 150 to 380 pounds, you know, looking like a Portland man wearing a plaid shirt and is able to produce two sperm. So this is not even whole ones. No. So just the head. So this is this is a fucking mystery.

So right away, they don't even know who is she, number one, is what they need to know. And, you know, that's no way to know who killed her or why they killed her if they don't know who she is, basically. So there's nothing like articles of clothing or anything like that. So there's obviously no ID, no way to identify her that way. There's obviously no ID, no way to identify her that way. The only item on her body, only thing she has other than what she was born with, is a turquoise earring. One turquoise earring. Okay.

One in one ear. That's it. So, I mean, that earring, the other earring, who the fuck knows where that could have been. She hit an embankment and went into a cliff. She could have been wearing two when she went down, yeah. We have no idea. So it didn't help. They were like, well, this isn't going to help much.

One earring probably isn't going to be much here. So they're trying to, they want to investigate this quickly because they feel like whoever did this is probably not a good person at all. And good chance they're doing something like this again. So they want to get on the investigation sooner rather than later so you know they're not just going to take the the body in and go well let's hope somebody puts out a missing persons report and then uh then we can start looking they're actively trying to check out how we can identify her at all. So they end up there. They're asking. They have nobody to ask besides the fishermen.

They're like, we have no leads. It's just a turquoise earring and a dead female. So they send three detectives, send out alerts to all the law enforcement agencies in the area with a description of the victim and the crime. This is what happened. Is anybody missing that you know of uh you know that sort of thing they in addition that morning alert the local media and provides them the same information uh only holding back details that would be

you know only known to the killers they don't give the exact wounds they just say she was killed they don't say she was stabbed and choked you know she had black eyes all that that's the shit that you need to get from the killer so you know it's real if they do confess yeah exactly so that way no one can come forward just because otherwise you get you'll just get crazy people who want attention that were i stabbed her yeah i did it too many people it happens so often too it's every every highly publicized case has self has false confessions. It happens all the time. Which one's more fascinating?

The women that want to fuck them or those guys? Those guys. Yeah. Those guys. I think so, too. The bad boy thing. That's just the bad boy thing to another level. But that I understand because guys are like that with women, too.

You find some women and you're like, ooh, she just stabbed her last boyfriend. And you're like, that's kind of hot. So you say she's single. Yeah. All right. So you're saying if I get on Instagram, I could probably find her, right? Okay. But then also, you have nothing to lose when you just want to fuck that person.

You have everything to lose when you admit to murdering. What the fuck are you talking about? That's a good point, too. murdering what the fuck are you talking about that's a good point too so they're trying to attract they're trying to attract uh uh you know the the people who have any information while also shielding themselves from the um the false confessors that always pop up and do all of this shit basically so they need something um it's very difficult though to find anything eventually though they get a lucky break because uh the next day october the 8th uh a missing person come report comes through

and it's a relative reporting a 27 year old woman missing that fits her description very very closely and this 27 year old lady is named deborah sue spicer and apparently she had not returned from a from a night of drinking on october the 6th which is the evening before this body was pushed into the river so uh this family member was worried about her and provided them with a description of her that fit the body that they found. And so they started, at this point, they could obviously check a little bit closer.

So they talked to the people who put the missing persons report out. And within like a minute, they knew, okay, this is who we're looking for so they know it's deborah sue spicer and um yeah they they get uh photographs and all that sort of thing once they see a picture of her alive they're like that's her shit so her face was swollen and injured but there was no doubt that it was her so they were they had to then tell the relatives oh which when you put out a missing person report,

you don't expect to get like two hours later them go, oh, yeah, we found her. She's dead. That's not the expectation. It's either going to be a lengthy thing or they'll come home, but not, oh, that's the person we found dead yesterday is not what you're expecting, hopefully. Good news, bad news. Got some good news and bad. Good news, the mystery's solved.

Got her. Bad news, it's fucking horrible and the worst thing. The mystery solved. Got her. Bad news. It's fucking horrible. And the worst thing that is ever going to happen to you and your family. So there's that. Yeah. Looking horrible. So they learned about Spicer.

Spicer was born in 1962. She's from Ohio. Originally, her family moved to California when she was five, which is lucky little shit. That's lucky. You wish your family moved to California when you were five. five you'd have been like oh i get sunshine you could have been like one of those tanned surfing beach kids jimmy and also it it lets you appreciate that life because you've just lived five years in fucking ohio in columbus yeah right so uh which is different there's not not as many beaches is what we're getting at.

It's deeper than that, James. It's fucking better. Just all around. It's just better. Even when you're not at the beach, at least you're not in Ohio. Yeah. At least you're not in wherever the hell you're from. At least you're not in Colorado Springs where you're from or fucking Wappingers Falls where I'm from. It's better than that.

It's just nicer. where you're from or fucking Wappingers Falls where I'm from. It's better than that. It's just nicer. So after that, they moved to Oregon when she's like a year or two later and they end up settling in the Portland Gresham area. And she was a cheerleader in high school and all that sort of thing. Graduated in 1980. They said that she she has a lot of friends.

She's very social. She's a pretty young woman, too. Not that that matters either way, but I mean, she's sociable, and she has everything going for her. She's attractive and living the best life. Yes. She has everything going for her from a societal standpoint looking in. You'd go, that girl has it all going for her. She seems smart and pretty and peppy, and look at her. So she does a lot.

She has a lot of friends uh she likes to ski and play tennis and do kind of shit like that she has been working as a secretary but recently she had to quit her job because of from what her relatives here said a debilitating migraine problem no she said she had migraine headaches and she missed so much work that she just had to eventually quit her job. Wow. So very bad migraines. And I don't know if there's been a – hopefully there's been – since 1989, there's more remedies for that. Or perhaps wherever she was working was the cause of the fucking migraines.

That might be that, too. Maybe that's what it is. Perhaps there's a guy that keeps reminding her that she's got a great ass somewhere in there and it gives her a headache every day i don't want to worry i just get this it's in starts in my neck yeah and it's just it's just a tension and i don't get it it's just i i don't know what it is but it's whenever i smell paco rabban it's just every time i'm like boom migraine. Fuck this job. So they said also that she lately has kind of, she's been drinking more lately and kind of being just kind of a little more wild than she normally was. Not in a bad way.

She's not getting arrested or anything like that. She's being 27. She's being 27 and she doesn't have a job to go to in the morning now. So, I mean, if you don't have to be anywhere in the morning, you can go out on a Tuesday night. That's awesome. That's me start going, well, it's less crowded on Tuesday. These people can have their Fridays with their work and stress and all that shit. I'm going on Tuesday.

That's a lot. Getting a drink. I'm going to go have seven in 10 minutes. Watch this. With the rest of the alcoholics who can't stay away on Tuesday. Not that she's an alcoholic, but a lot of people. We've done a lot of comedy bar shows. 10 minutes. Watch this. With the rest of the alcoholics who can't stay away on Tuesday. Not that she's an alcoholic, but a lot of people. We've done a lot of comedy bar shows on Tuesday nights, and it's not the cream of the crop crowd usually on a Tuesday.

It's the easiest night to get a drink by far. Yeah. It's empty, and it's people that are watching TV but staring through it. They're not even really watching it. It's not people that want the drink. It's the people that need the drink usually. They have to have the drink. So they said that she was,

they found out that Debra was planning on going to a local bar in southwest Portland. Or was it southeast? I think it's southeastern Portland. They were going to a local bar, and that was it. They said she liked to have fun. She liked to go out.

Just normal young people shit. Basically, she's a normal person, normal young person. Her relative said that she would play pool with the girls and the boys. She liked to have parties, but she also liked her home. So, you know, she was that wasn't all she did. Yeah. They said she liked she liked to read romance novels and stuff like that she's just a you know just a normal person stuff at the grocery store whatever you know is on the shelf she uh that night the friday night before her body was found unfortunately she had dinner with her relatives and uh her

boyfriend as well but she's been fighting with her boyfriend, they find out. So when someone's nude body's been tossed off a cliff and they find out she has a boyfriend and they've been fighting, that guy becomes very interesting very quickly. His story is paramount to this. Yeah. He's suspect 1, A, B, C, and D, and then we're going to talk to everybody else.

Once we do all the physical tests and have him pass a polygraph Suspect 1, A, B, C, and D, and then we're going to talk to everybody else. Once we do all the physical tests and have them pass a polygraph and do all that stuff, then we'll talk to everybody else. And have everybody else corroborate the horseshit he just told us. Yeah, including her family and friends. We want her best friends to say what he said is true, and then we'll believe it. But don't let them know. Pull your dick out, sir.

It's getting swabbed right now. Oh, speaking of dicks, wait till you hear later on. Oh, boy. Anyway, they had dinner, and the relative said that the boyfriend was here, and they went out on Friday night. Deborah stir-fried a dinner for all of us. All right. That's what she says. a dinner for all of us all right that's what she says the relative said that she and another relative they went deborah leaves with her boyfriend and then she comes back again this same relative where she was stir-fried everybody dinner yeah this she says deborah shows up about

three o'clock in the morning that morning at the door she showed up with two other people that she's never seen before this relative she is with a man and a woman who they have no idea who the fuck they are okay they only described the man as six feet tall 25 to 40 with dark sunken eyes they said that his i love this description his hair he had black hair it reached his collar in the back but was shorter on the sides. You know what that is. A mullet. It's called a mullet. It's 1989.

He had a beard and tattoos on both forearms. Nowadays, that means nothing. He's just like, oh, is he a shooting guard in the NBA or is he an MMA fighter? It could be anything. Or does he work at Tilly's? Yeah. Or is he a surgeon? Because I've seen surgeons.

It doesn't matter anymore. But in 1989, having your arms sleeved out was a definite, definite standout thing that everybody would have noticed. It was only like prisoners and bikers had their – and hardcore bik who, you know, like slept in their clothes for a week. This time would have that kind of tattoo. And those are sleeved out. But like and then and then the other guy that has that is the military guy who shot his friend in the face to put him out of his misery in Vietnam jungles. But most of the time, those guys back then didn't have covered in tattoos they'd have shit like on their chest or on their upper arms they might have one or two on their forearms yeah but

it wouldn't be they wouldn't want to show you what they had right in there so it was different so for him to do this this is a guy who said i don't give a fuck about anything basically because back then if you had sleeved out shit you could could get a job nowhere. Nowhere. Nowhere. Unless you were like, I was just going to say, unless you're real good with cars and there's a back shop they can put you in where no one will see you. That's it. That's the only job you're getting. You are welding the rusted frames back together. Back there, sir.

Yeah. Jimmy, you would be completely, no one would hire you to do shit back then. So yeah, we're not sniping. Today you can do everything up to and including making a podcast. Do anything. One of the tattoos was a star that they found, or it could have been a snowflake is what the relative said. I hope it's a snowflake.

Possibly a star. They said he was wearing a flannel shirt open in the front with a tank top on underneath and jeans and they said that they did see another tattoo on his chest that they read prominently because he had a tank top on which is in a low swooping to show his cleavage said it said debbie Debbie Lynn, Jimmy. Not Debbie Sue, Debbie Lynn. It's a Deborah derivative. That's hysterical. Oh, no, it's Deborah. Yeah, he's got a Debbie name on his fucking, which is crazy.

I just guessed that. How crazy is that, right? Unbelievable. Go on. That's why the relative's like, I don't, what? This is so weird. Who are these people? And there's a woman with him as well, who we'll get to in a second. Presumably Deborah. crazy is that right unbelievable come on that's why the relatives like i don't art what this is so weird who are these people and there's a woman with him as well we'll get to in a second hopefully debbie lynn either debbie lynn or a very disappointed woman one of the two

she didn't look that upset so i figured she's debbie lynn i'm not positive so now the boyfriend uh they describe i'm sorry the what they described the woman is about five foot two to five foot five with light brown hair they said she seemed to be in about her 30s kind of medium not heavy not super skinny just like regular build um she was wearing a short black jacket that extended to her waist and jeans is what the description was. So I guess kind of in the back. To her belt buckle, yeah. To her belt buckle.

Yeah. So now Deborah's boyfriend tells the police that, first of all, it's true that they've been fighting because they asked the cops to ask him. Deborah too. Yeah. Okay. No, too. Yeah. No, no. Debra. Who? What are you talking about?

Spicer's Debra. Yeah. There's a lot of Debbies involved. That's what I mean. Debra's everywhere. That's what I thought of Debra, I think, because you've said it so many times. That's what it was. Yeah, because I said her name was Debra Spicer.

And then you're like, and he's with her and he's got a tattoo that says Debi Lynn. So it's very confusing. So you're going to be, give me about two minutes and you're going to be like, get the fuck out of here. Okay. So they talked to the boyfriend and he said, yes, me and Deborah have been fighting. That is true. You did hear correct about that. But I didn't do any of this shit.

He said, what I did do, though, is I got a phone call from her about 4 a.m that morning so the relatives are at three i got a call from her at four she called me and she said um she didn't tell me where she was so i don't know exactly where she was and i'm not sure exactly what was going on but she basically vaguely said that um she was at in gresham at some couple's house and they wanted her to have a threesome with them and she didn't really want to do it and she was asking for like how do i get out of this like how do i how do i not fuck these people while i'm here essentially is what she was saying like they want to have a threesome how do i get out of here without like making them you know i don't know if it's a social thing or there was she he said she didn't seem scared but she seemed uncomfortable and just wanted to get out of and she was like how do i get out of this but she was

also drunk he said too so it was hard to get the story out of her yeah she didn't really know where she was it was kind of difficult and they're going okay well that sounds like a good story but also if i was a fighting boyfriend's uh if i was a fighting boyfriend of a murdered woman i'd probably have that story too oh yeah four in the morning she's like this couple wants to fuck me how do i get out of this a likely story sir that's what they're saying here doesn't take hard much thinking to get there i suppose yeah but it's still yeah this is why you don't fight with your with your significant other and then go out you're gonna get yourself in a position where you need them to help you and you're fighting with them and they're not going to

come to your aid they're not going to yeah and we're talking about by the way her coming to his aid yeah with the police at this point because either direction yeah well you can still fight with you but nobody should you can fight with whoever you want and still you shouldn't be fucking murdered i would say i'm not saying that i'm just i don't think that came out quite the way you want no i'm just saying don't be don't be the guy that fights with your girlfriend then she leaves and then be like i'm not gonna go pick her up whenever oh yeah yeah yeah that's a very good point yeah i misunderstood you yeah you don't want to be that asshole i would say that's right so um the police don't know whether to believe him or what so they go around uh they're they have a police sketch

artist with them as well and they're trying to get any kind of info they can yeah and they're talking about uh they heard that she went to this bar so they're gonna they're gonna check with this bar um there's so many tips coming in though that they have to investigate that it's actually hindering the investigation wow they said a deputy judy gage said quote people want to help so much that we have to eliminate all the tips that come in we hope it won't be too long somebody must know you know what happened yeah somebody's got to know not something so one tip comes in from klamath falls and the caller reported seeing a van with a man and two women one of them fitting the description of deborah spicer uh and uh by all of this uh so they investigated that and they were like okay we got a van we got a guy we got two

women that's something and that doesn't pan out to be anything. Turns out to these people had a solid alibi. They weren't anywhere near anything that night. They person had their day wrong or some shit like that. So so they check out the bar. They find out where she was. And it's a southeast Portland bar. And she was seen drinking with a man and a woman that night at the bar. And so they're looking into that and they question

employees and they question all the all the bar patrons that are always there bar flies and employees are being questioned and eventually they end up finding out the name of the people that she was drinking with at the bar they're like well that's a good start because maybe they're the same people that were at the door with her at her relative's house. They find out that these are two people named Randy Charles Bacorny. Bacorny? B-O-C-K-O-R-N-Y. Bacorny. Yes.

Randy Charles Bacorny, who's 35 years old, and his wife, who is Deborah Lynn Bacorny. Multiple Debras, okay? Multiple Debras. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy.

The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid.

Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched.

He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar.

Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes you should tune in to our podcast morbid follow morbid on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining wondery plus and the wondery app or on apple podcasts and uh they were said to have been in the tavern on friday night oct 6th, and were seen drinking with Deborah Spicer.

Yes. So, okay. We're going to call the wife, Debbie Lynn. We're going to call Deborah Spicer, Deborah. Debbie Lynn and Deborah. Okay. That's how we're going to discern who we're dealing with here. So they place them together.

The witnesses describe Randy is about six feet tall uh which is you know that's what the relative described him as but a way different description than the fisherman sure so they said five seven there's a big difference between five seven and six feet boy is there jimmy's like i look up at it every day oh boy uh they describe him as a medium build blue eyes mullet and uh and a van dyke beard which is a yeah goatee on the bottom so he's got that going on there and they also said all of the the the tattoo thing is coming more into focus it's a teardrop tattoo near his left eye oh and that gets worse jimmy and a partially drawn spider web tattoo on his left wrist okay these are these are what does that tell you jimmy prison tattoos thank you

that tells me i've done time yeah and lots of it yeah plenty the teardrop is somebody else is no longer doing time yeah that's a it's very's very, that says a lot right there. They said both forearms were covered in tattoos, as was much of his body as well. They even said that they, he had the tattoo, somebody that knew him says, he had a tattoo of the name, this is walsy, well, dickly, I will say, the name of a former girlfriend on his dickhead he tattooed his old girlfriend's name on the tip of his dick and then they're not together anymore how many letters was that and he's like i'm gonna pound you with old sally tonight sweetheart when he gets a new girlfriend was it like jen i really hope her name was like yeah it was like die maybe i hope or something like that i really hope it wasn't

isabella or something that probably wasn't let's hope so right away you got a guy who's willing to tattoo the head of his cock so this is a this is another level of something right there i can't imagine doing that you got a guy who's willing to tattoo the head of his cock. So this is another level of something right there. I can't imagine doing that. This is a guy who lives in the moment. Right. You know what I mean? In the moment, yeah.

Like, psychopath-wise. Yeah. Have you ever heard, this is a thing, I'm reading this book by, he's an FBI profiler for years, Hazelwood is his name, and one of his books he's he's talking about all this shit and it's it's it's fucking very very interesting about how like a psychopath will they do this test and it always works out the same way if you ask a psychopath would you rather have a quarter right now 25 cents or five dollars tomorrow i'll give you a quarter right now or five dollars tomorrow 100 of them go i want that quarter right now or $5 tomorrow. 100% of them go, I want that quarter right now.

Wow. They need it. I need now. I need stimulation now. There's no forethought. There's no C tomorrow. Just needing it. No C in tomorrow.

So, yeah, I'll get $5 again in a different way tomorrow. But I need that quarter right now. It's instant gratification they need. five dollars to get in a different way tomorrow but i need that quarter right now it's uh instant gratification they need so they they recall deborah bacorny has five six about 140 pound 140 pounds wavy light brown collar length hair and blue eyes so they have the same haircut these two as a lot of couples did in 1989 yeah they did they did. From 85 to 89, you had couples with that short hairdo and they both had it, or this mullet deal and they both had it. It's very strange. They just both went to the same person and went, just do us two for one it.

Fuck it. Our family friend Ed and Bambi, they both looked identical, only she was like 5'1 and he was like 6'9. It's the weirdest thing my my dad and stepmom have the same hairdo in their wedding photo it's hilarious it's from like 85 same hairdo it's so funny yes so uh they had the kind of the longer do she uh uh collar length hair blue eyes she also has tattoos on both of her upper shoulders now as aberrant as it was for a man to be covered in tattoos in 1989 for a woman to be covered in tattoos that was like whoa mama stay a whoa she is a wow she's a i mean if you couldn't bring her home or to the they'd be like what the fuck prison did you pull

her out of jesus christ where biker barge you find her in right well that might actually be accurate because one of the tattoos on her shoulder was a harley emblem the harley davidson she had a harley emblem something tells me she has uh rode with a couple of groups before and been uh something tells me she's been a mama let's just put it that way you know what i mean uh you know that parlance so especially back then and then the other shoulder had a teardrop and in the center of that teardrop it's a bigger teardrop and in the middle of it it reads teardrop randy oh that's her husband's name randy i don't know if that means that they call him teardrop randy

i guess i guess so because he's got a teardrop right on his fucking face you can't yeah i guess so and unless you're with a group of you know life prisoners that's probably you're the you're one of the only people the teardrop tattoo on your face that is a wild couple so yeah this couple is like you don't fuck with that couple at all they're crazy um they also found that they hear that they drive a silver blue 76 ford van with a gray stripe with no windows on the driver's side okay so uh they they find out that that it has wisconsin license plates and uh that they find out they find out that the bicornis van matches the description pretty pretty perfectly um the except for the height

the general description of a burly tattooed man with longer hair is fits the description of the fisherman throwing him over he's doing a pretty good job nailing this uh yeah so it is like we said randy is 35 debbie lynn is 34 here's a picture of them i'll show you picture of them taking at a bar together how you know that couple yeah he's uh 36 okay he looks like he looks like the guy from tombstone the bad guy he does he does look like curly doesn't he curly bill brosch it's he looks like curly and then she's and the guy from uh deadwood uh running the bar what is that what is that pal swearingen no the guy curly bro brocious is in deadwood uh oh yeah he runs a competing bar yeah yeah um cyrus cyrus yeah yeah so and she uh in

this picture he's got there's budweiser cans all in front of him and he's got a can she's got a cigarette in her hand and you can see the tattoos on them both and uh she's lovingly like head on his shoulder you know they're they're they're a party couple here yeah he is from uh antigo anti i don't know a n t i-O in northern Wisconsin. Northern Wisconsin. Out there. Yeah. So way out there. They learn he's born there. He lived there pretty much his whole life.

He has a bunch of relatives that still live there. They also, when they look into him, because they want to know who they're dealing with before they go get him, when they contact the sheriff's department back where he's from. It's the Langlade County Sheriff's Department. They find out that he has had 47 contacts with the sheriff's department. 40. In his hometown. Seven. 47.

Four. Seven. Think about that. More than everyone that he's been alive. He's only 35 years old. Yeah. More than every year that he's been on he's only 35 years old yeah more than every year that he's been on this earth 47 from everything he's just been a general complete nuisance pain in the fucking dick to

the to the entire county since he's lived there yeah and it's not it's burglary criminal damage to property trespassing robbery robbery drinking in the streets disorderly conduct you name it it's he's fucking done it everything um then they find that he has robbery charges and uh uh in 1973 and also an attempted escape in prison when he was in a state wisconsin prison so this psychopath thing is lining up here bad man man. He's a bad man. Also given an extra charge for assaulting another prisoner and in prison in Wisconsin in 1977. Then he's paroled in the early 80s and convicted for parole violations in 1983. Sent back to jail, re-paroled.

And then in 1985, he gets sent back for more parole violations, some drunken disorderly conduct shit. So he's a fucking idiot that does not think before he acts at all. He just does. He's just one of those people.

And on October 3rd, this is three days before Deborah Spicer would have met him in the bar. On October 3rd. If that's the case, the Langlade County Sheriff's Department issued a felony warrant for his arrest for failure to appear in court on a battery charge filed by a former girlfriend in March. So he's married, but still beating the shit out of former girlfriends for some reason you're you're already married to somebody else like whatever what are you doing why would you

hit someone who's not you're not even with and this was seven months prior to him being in in oregon yeah this is no that what that yeah they he the beat her up in March, but they issued the warrant for him in October. So right there. So he didn't show up for the court date for it because he left the fucking town. Well, apparently they find out he's been in the Gresham area for about two months. Him and Deborah have been here for about two months, or Debbie Lynn, I should say. He and Debbie Lynn have been here for about two months, and they have a rented house on the edge of Gresham.

It's a house on a very, very, very large and isolated lot, kind of in the middle of nowhere. When you're out from the law, it's one of those houses. Yeah. Basically, you could see people looking. It's like a Billy the Kid house. You can see them looking out the window. Are they coming? 360-degree view of the woods the woods yeah keep digging that hole uh i even found in a uh in 1975 he was in prison apparently and he was actually called as a witness he ratted on some

guy who disabled the prison bus yeah he. He observed the guy running. So Bacorni said he was curious what was going on. So he went into the bathroom and confronted the guy and he observed the guy covered in oil and with oil everywhere.

And the guy said that, Bacorni said the guy told him he pulled the oil plug for the prison bus so they couldn't be taken to their work assignment that day so they could have a day off so that was the whole thing and uh he said that uh he told the corny that he was going to burn burn his jacket with all the oil all over it and all that sort of shit so this guy

ended up getting convicted of that but he was in prison like trying to tell on people to get himself extra advantages and shit in 1975 this was going on so he is an old pro man this is nothing new here um he they do a vehicle search for him they found out he purchased the 1976 ford van from a antigua resident in 1988 so the year before he just got the van they according to this sergeant he said that he served numerous stints in the Wisconsin prison system for sentences that total

about 10 years all these different sentences so he's been in prison a third of his life essentially and Deborah Bacorni though Debbie Lynn has no criminal record with that county okay but they don't think she's from there either so that's the difference as we'll find out she's not um they said that they think they met on the west coast this couple at some point so they think she's from out there but they can't say where now um deborah bicorni debbie lynn

has a history of violence especially when she's been drinking apparently that's when she really breaks it out she's been married five times hell yeah by 34 which is a good sign um she has this is fucking amazing she has fired a rifle at her first husband causing the end of that marriage hit or miss this is over missed him missed him but shot a rifle at him so that'll end it actually did shoot her second husband with a handgun oh my god now think about the guy she's probably with she it's 1989 and she's got a harley logo tattoo on her shoulder these are guys who come home shit-faced and like beat the shit out of her and are like you know fuck all my friends you know that's the type of dudes that we're talking about so when there's gunplay

involved that's a that's a panhandle i have a headache yeah that's what it is you just keep a fucking 357 under your pillow they hear that the cock of the gun and they're like what she's not feeling good i'm gonna go a whack it to the spice channel very good it's 89 they have to have the spice what porn they had in 89 whether it's scrambled or not they're whacking to it i'm gonna go watch cinemax and see if there's a Shannon Tweed movie on about 2 o'clock in the morning. Gunplay twice. Twice. The first two marriages.

She realized the rifle was too hard to wield and she needed the handgun to more accuracy and she shot him. And she hit him. She hit him this time. Her third husband. This is awesome. Her third husband she attacked with a hammer that's how that relationship ended jesus christ attacked him with a hammer oh my i'm not positive how her fourth marriage ended but i'm sure it was with a weapon in some sort of weapon

but it's not documented okay but she's also stabbed randy bicorni twice as well and he just won't leave wow he's the only one tough enough where he's like you just stabbed me you you son of a bitch i'm gonna make you tattoo something on me now that's how that's mere penance quick rub some ink in that we'll we'll make that wound a new tattoo yeah it's gonna be something it's gonna i'm gonna call it love so this this is these two are if you've ever heard a couple that you'd say these two deserve and belong together it's these two you know what i mean they're but the weird part is there isn't any a lot of there's no record of violence from randy to debbie lynn but there's but she stabbed him twice which is weird because

he's had tons of violence in his background besides that it's just very strange the whole thing's crazy um stabbed him twice so yeah just fired a rifle shot her second husband attacked her third with a hammer fourth husband ran off before she could hit him apparently yeah ran away while she had like a cartoon mallet over her head trying to bash him and then uh stabbed randy twice uh but she doesn't have a criminal record for this because all these spouses even though the cops were called because of there's gun, none of them pressed charges. They wouldn't press charges against her. So they ended up not filing charges against her because back then you could shoot your husband and he could just go, no, it's okay.

And they'd be like, well, I called her a bitch. I guess that's that. He said he cheated on her. So, I mean, he fucked fun of the waitresses from the bar. She had no choice. And then they'd leave. Back then, the C word was the worst thing you could call a woman and i'm sure that that word was probably strewn about with her and she fired rounds for it well i mean i think she showed exactly how offensive it was to her i would say either that or it was strewn about after those

events and she earned it. She did earn it. And then, oh, by the way, she's known to carry a knife and threaten anyone, threatens to cut anyone who even talks to Randy, basically. And anyone who, quote, will come between her and her husband, she threatened to cut. And recently, she slapped a woman and attacked her with a knife for being near Randy in a way that she didn't feel like was really what she wanted. Slap and then got it. She needed to slap while she got her knife out. It took a second to get the knife out, so she needed to get that going.

Apparently, they left Wisconsin about two months ago. They were there together for a little while at least. what the fuck happened i mean good god after they left the bar um they apparently left together they were seen leaving together debbie lynn uh deborah spicer and randy brockney uh but corny brockney but corny is his name it's all the letters it's fine it's all in there somewhere they leave in his van and they stop at a store to buy more beer yeah as well they leave the bar at 2 30 a.m and they're buying more beer um they've apparently randy and debbie lynn have been drinking all day this is just a non-stop 24-hour. They also stopped briefly at Debbie's relative's house. Like we said,

or I'm sorry, Deborah Spicer's relative's house before then going to the Bacorny residence. Hell yeah. So this is the weird part. Okay. If she's hanging out with them, I don't know if they're explicit in their desires. Yeah.

Or if she thought it sounded fun at the bar when she had some drinks, and then an hour later when you're feeling kind of, you know, you're less hammered, and you're like, maybe this isn't exactly what I... Start to sober up. Or you get so drunk you're tired. Like, there's a lot of... Yeah. so drunk you're tired like there's a lot of yeah or if they because i can't say they took her and they're forcing her because she went to her relative's house where there was there were several of her relatives there where she could have just went inside and said i'm not leaving call the cops these people are or also they also said she didn't seem under duress at all

she came in and out freely and there was a everybody was friendly so it doesn't seem like she was being held if you're someone's being held against their will you don't stop at their cousin's house you know what i'm saying oh you just want to stop at your cousin's house no problem and then you're kidnapped though after that now you're ours there's nowhere else to go so at this point when they're at the residence everything has to be voluntary it has to be or at least not volunteer whatever the word is there has to be on the up and and up. It's all on the up and up. It's people are hanging out.

So now he says they went there. Randy's story when they talked to him is that he assisted Debbie Lynn in disposing of Deborah Spicer's body, but he didn't have anything to do with killing her. That's a hell of a story. I don't know shit about that. She's crazy that that you know her boy i mean ask her role ask her ex-husbands but pal it's crazy so he said that when they arrived at the residence he said immediately um his wife deborah is what debbie lynn his wife started uh blowing him immediately so his wife started

giving him a blow job right when they got there. In front of Deborah Spicer and everything. This was just on display. And he said that he, you know, he ejaculates his hair. And he said after that, you know, he was pretty much had lost interest at that point into anything else that was going on on the planet so he said he just kind of kicked back for a minute and he saw debbie lynn and deborah spicer starting to mess around sexually in the bedroom he says his wife debbie lynn is bisexual she says absolutely she'll obviously she's got a tattoo of it somewhere like she's

totally she likes she likes girls it's that's fine so they start getting down like this isn't a new thing is what we're saying like isn't like i don't know what it is about this one woman she had to have her so he said he just went into another room and laid down on the bed and went to sleep okay he's like i got what i wanted and i i feel like according to his story that was Debbie Lynn's way of getting him out of there like I'll blow him and then he'll have no more energy and then I can I want to be with the girl so I got to get him out of here the only way I'm going to get him out of here is if he busts his nut and uh then then he'll be very sleepy yeah I know how this guy works so he said

that he was suddenly awoken by a noise now here's another thing where i'm going to call bullshit uh i'm going to call bullshit on the story right here if you've been drinking for like 16 hours and then you then you get a blow job yeah and then you pass out sasquatch could rip your door off come in and fuck your face and you would not wake up right you wouldn't you're not waking up for about 10 hours there no not even a little he's out right but uh apparently not so he said he heard this shit and he went back into the bedroom to see what the noise was and what he sees is debbie lynn on top of deborah spicer and uh so he's like all right they're getting down but then debbie lynn

got off and he says that he saw that deborah spicer had been stabbed oh he saw that she had wounds and she was bloody and he was like whoa what the fuck happened and he said that deborah at that point told him she's dead i killed her there you go. So and like we said, this is chest and abdomen stab wounds and manual asphyxiation. No defense wounds, you know, bruising like she was held. Be hard for one woman to do that to another one. That's what I mean. One on one. Even to be hard for one man to do that to one woman because you'd have to hold them down while you're stabbing and choking them.

That's a lot. And beating. And like if you beat them and stab them woman because you'd have to hold them down while you're stabbing and choking them it's a lot and beating and like if you beat them and stab them why did you need to hold them yeah because then you would be beating them so they would be unconscious so you could do the other stuff without them fighting back that would be the point of doing that incapacitate them or the obvious is somebody held the hands while the rest was happening yeah or that one of those two things so um yeah like we said her face was badly bruised just to you know update there oh perhaps uh perhaps uh debbie lynn did some chewing and when she kissed her all the tails were bitten off that's well that's the other thing that's the other that's kind's the other. That's kind of the other.

That's his story is that she blew me. And if there's sperm heads in Deborah Spicer's mouth, it's because they were probably in Debbie Lynn's mouth and they kissed. And that's how they got there. Right. Because I didn't I didn't have my never had me in Deborah Spicer's mouth is his story. I never engaged in any sex with her. Yeah. Never touched her. That's his story.

Woke up fully blown and the shit was already done. Got it. Whoa, what's up with that shit? So now the state, on the other hand, the cops have another theory of it. They think that he and Debbie Lynn took Spicer to their house where he had oral sex with Spicer that's what they think and then afterwards they think that he and Spicer stabbed and choked her to death

probably one doing one while the other did the other is what they think happened. Debbie Lynn maybe got a little jealous. Yeah either that or this was some sort of like that's how they get off like I'll choke you stab and that's how like they get off together. They're like a sexual sadist team which is pretty fucking rare that doesn't happen often a man woman sexual sadist team together that would be a you know people are dangerous oh it's the

most dangerous thing ever because you have you know you have a woman that can reel in other women and make this guy look safer right luckily luckily though, though, this Debbie Lynn would give anybody pause based on her... Psychotic behavior. Behavior, her demeanor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Her look in 1989, all that shit would give everybody like...

Her overall Debbie-ness. Her overall... The overall Debbie Lynn-ness of this picture. Debbie Lynn is perfect, too. and it's not even ie it's with a y is it really bby lynn debbie lynn it's just yeah yeah so um now that is his that's his his story i don't know shit. Now her story is a little bit different. All of a sudden they're not on the same page anymore, Debbie Lynn and Randy now. The other story is that they all went to the residence

where Randy told the two women to have sex with each other. He said, you two start fucking doing some stuff here. And then he left the room and then joined later on and uh you know got into the stuff and that his story is obviously i left i came back and uh she'd been strangled she'd been stabbed he says though when he came back the stab wounds she was alive still the stab wounds weren't fatal but she was you know she lost a lot of blood and was weak to be choked. Basically, she was easy to be choked because she was weak. And so they think that the police think that's a possibility.

And then they put her in the van. They threw her over the embankment. Obviously, we knows that. Now, Debbie claims that Debbie Lynn claims that Randy terrorized her and forced her to commit the crimes that made up that did all this she said i didn't want to do any of this i was just wanted to have a nice night out with my husband come home uh she says that uh now she says randy's violent toward her and uh on different occasions he broke her nose gave her black eyes and threatened to kill her and is also assaulted her sexually oh my she says so and i doubt none of that i doubt none of that because that all makes sense why she stabbed him twice

you know what i'm saying yeah that makes perfect sense he punches her and she stabs him so yeah that's that's fair what the fuck you know what i'm saying he sexually assaults her and she stabs him you know like that's how they deal with their weird relationship. It's fucking weird. So yeah, they determined it was a total of four knife wounds there. That's the totality of the knife wounds. And it also appeared, like they said, she'd been beaten about the head and face. appeared like they said she'd been beaten about the head and face they were they were hard to hard pressed to tell which of the injuries to the face happened when she was beaten or which of the ones

were made worse on the fall that's where they have trouble with that yeah it's just blunt trauma yeah that's that's about that they said they were said they were unable to determine whether, they said she'd obviously been strangled, but they don't know if maybe she had something placed over her face as well. They're thinking that's a possibility. While they were strangling her, they put a pillow over her to hasten the process a little bit. More air, yeah. Even less air, yeah.

Like Bianchi and Bono used to do with shit. They would make sure to put a bag over someone's head and let a little air in and then take it out and do all that shit horrible so um yeah they said that the the end in the end the cause of death was strangulation is what they decided not the stab wounds even though the stab wounds would have been fatal they choked her before she bled to death very nice so um that's nice too let's stab her before we choke her to death why don't we so they're looking uh when they were looking for the suspects now now they're looking for debbie and randy essentially they can't find them they're

on the lamp well yeah they go looking for them and they're not there right so uh one of debbie's deborah spicer's relatives says quote debor was no saint, but she was not a bad girl. That person had to be crazy to do what he did. What kind of person would do that? Kill somebody just because she didn't want didn't want to do what they wanted her to do and toss her off without toss her off without clothes on off a cliff. I don't care what that man was. I want him caught. No, I want him dead. a cliff i don't care what that man was i want him caught no i want him dead i believe in capital punishment he took her life and no matter what she was she didn't deserve to die like that or in any other way either yeah that's all fair so while they search and search and search um they first they go to their house that's now they expect them not to be there. And they're not. Debbie Lynn and Randy.

It's a small, isolated rental house. Huge lot in Gresham. And they end up searching the house here. It's a multi-jurisdictional law enforcement thing. It's all hands on deck, basically. No one's home. And they feel like they probably took off right from the riverbank. Right when threw the body off they probably jetted and got the fuck out there's so many people down there we gotta go yeah they really did but uh they were let inside by the owner and they went

through the house room by room for evidence and uh they really they had time so they just really did it up they uh they said there was was they took anything that was things that might have been weapons. Also looking for trace evidence because they believe she'd at least been wounded here. They just didn't know whether she had been killed here or not. They they end up finding they're looking for fingerprints. They're looking for maybe a piece of her clothes. Something could be identified in one of the bedrooms. They find they find traces of blood.

That's a start. They also note that a large section of green carpet had been cut away from the rest of the carpet. Just gone. Just a section of carpet cut away, which is very suspicious. Very, yeah. Most people don't just cut a huge swath of carpet out of their floor. It's not normal. There's chunks of carpet missing.

Yeah, they were wondering whether or not this had anything to do with the death, obviously. Probably. They thought it did, you think. They also examine the areas around the cut section looking for traces of blood. Then they get down on their hands and knees searching the floor, getting under the bed, all of this shit. And they find the exact thing they're looking for. That fucking earring. That fucking earring.

There it is. A tiny turquoise earring. God damn it. Found under the bed. They find it in the carpet under the bed. That definitely links the two together. Oh, boy, does it? Yeah.

Puts her in the living room and they love having that evidence there so now it's at this point they know they're suspects for sure right and they need to find them the fbi gets involved at this point to find them it's an all the whole country they're looking for these people because they're fucking dangerous oh boy yeah if they'll do this who knows what kind of a trail they're going to leave to wherever they're going, especially if they enjoyed this. Yeah. They might go, let's do this again tomorrow. Let's do it. I mean, fuck, this is a thing. So they talked to a bunch of people in their hometown in Wisconsin to find out if anybody knew them. They did find out that they have fled Oregon and they believe they're headed toward Wisconsin. They found from several contacts with relatives and friends of theirs that they have been in contact since they left Oregon. They've said, hey, we're on our way back to Wisconsin.

Please put us up. Do you have any room on your car lot? Can I sleep in the back of a 4Runner? What do you say? It was a RAV4. It was a RAV4, yeah. So they get arrest warrants for them, the whole deal. And they end up kind of narrowing down where they were and finding them in, where is it? Green Bay, Wisconsin.

That's where they find them. Yeah. Green Bay on Green Bay, Wisconsin. That's where they find them. Yeah. Green Bay on October 26, 1989. They're at the Titletown Motel. So you know it's Green Bay. Yeah. The Titletown Motel. Thursday, October 26, a police officer in Green Bay

spotted a van that fit the description of the Bicornis. Yeah. So it was parked in a motel parking lot on the west side of town. They checked the license plate and it's registered to Randy Bacorny. Beautiful. So they call for backup

and kind of try to surround the place basically. They casually talk to the desk clerk and they learn that they've been there since October 15th. So it took a few days and they're registered under the name Deborah Bacoricorni yep and they're down under their names having a a green bay championship breakfast they're having a cheese head on a plate she told the cops the desk clerk said that bicorni was very friendly yeah and so friendly

that in fact she got a job as a waitress at the motel restaurant when she got here literally she's working over here the week down at lombardi literally like she's great we love debbie like debbie lynn's the shit it's fucking wild she said that uh she knows that she got a job there and also deborah's husband teardardrop Randy, got a job somewhere in town, too. So, I don't know. They're doing great. Yeah. He said, but as a matter of fact. They put their life back together in a week.

In a week. In a week. They kill a woman, drive across the country, and they both have jobs in a week. White privilege. And, Jesus. And he even said, you said that like you were saying, like you were hiling somebody. By the way. White privilege.

That's what you said. White privilege. That's right. Can I get a white privilege? That's really weird. That was a very strange way to say that. Like an exclamation point on the end of the sentence. Strange tone on it.

White privilege. Yeah. Like that just happened. You're happy it happened. And you're like, yeah, white privilege. That's right. Can I have an amen? White privilege.

Amen. I know that's not how you meant to put it. It was really fucking hilarious to hear it sound like that. I'll take it. So, anyway, the clerk also says, as luck would have it, boy, you fellows are sure in luck. They're both in the restaurant as we speak right now. If you want to just head on over there, you could probably talk to both of them. So they do.

It's 445 p.m. at the Titletown Motel in Green Bay. Wow. And they end up they're arrested without any incident. They don't you know, he doesn't like tip one of the diner tables up in front of him like a guard and start throwing fucking ketchup bottles at the guy or anything. They just give it up. She's in, I'm sure, an embarrassing waitress uniform while she's taken to prison, which isn't good.

No. So they did use extreme caution because obviously these, you know. They're dangerous as fuck, man. Dangerous people, but they find them. When they search the van, and they tow the van, by the way, so they could search that. When they search it, they find, among a lot of shit here, a big section of carpet that had been cut away from the bedroom. They kept it for a week. They drove for a thousand miles and didn't throw it out.

Hung on to the whole thing. Think about how many middle of nowheres are between Oregon and Wisconsin. Oh, God. How many times they stopped in Montana or North Dakota or somewhere, Minnesota, along the way to get gas. So much middle of nowhere. And they were like, just leave it. It's good.

It's fine. I feel like if we leave they won't even look for us no more it's just like oh if they stay in town we'll get them if not they can go how messy how messy must that van be that in the just throw it in the back nobody will find it that's what i mean well they also they said it fucking reeked in the van the van smelled so bad they were like it was hard to like get near it they saw massive blood stains on the carpet it was just heavy heavy you know like you stab someone and they let out he let on it yeah like you know like someone bled out on it so they said uh they also turned the carpet over and observed

that the blood had soaked through it and you know all through it it's soaked that's how much blood it is um results of the blood typing there indicated the bloodstains found at the house was the same type as Spicer's. At the time, they have to wait forever for DNA at that moment. And the blood found inside of the van was also the same type as hers. So that's a lot of evidence. It's not conclusive, but it's good to help out here. And now the medical examiner comes in here and checks all that out. Like we said, has all their stuff, which matches up with the blood and how much blood would have left.

So they match that up. This is a lot of evidence. It's a lot of evidence against them. It doesn't look good at all. They were seen by her relatives with her. And that's the fucked up part. were seen by her relatives with her. And that's the fucked up part.

If they didn't see, if they didn't stop at her relative's house, I don't think they would have been caught near as easily as this. Not near as fast, yeah. Not near as fast, and maybe not at all. Who the hell knows? It might have slipped through the cracks. And kudos to the relative

who got that good of a look that saw Debbie Lynn on his chest, saw the teardrop. Teardrop, Randy. Everything, yeah. Yeah, not too fucking shabby really really good well done yeah i would say so so now they do an interview right away with deb deb debbie lynn debra debbie lynn now debbie lynn is going to waive extradition and get extradited back randy's going to say no'm not waving extradition yeah you're gonna have to extradite me which they do in like eight days so it doesn't fucking matter but just just making it extra difficult for everybody in the interview with deborah or debbie lynn the they uh she says

that um you know they tried that randy tried to force it's well basically randy tried to force me to have sex with her and then force you know force force force randy randy randy got it all randy all i did was go along with the with the plot and we'll give you a more detailed one in a second here the charges are oh boy aggravated felony murder attempted first degree sexual abuse is the aggravator there uh aggravated murder slash concealment and it's aggravated first degree sexual abuse there felony murder first degree sodomy aggravated felony murder aggravated murder

and concealment again all sorts of shit intentional murder any kind of murder they can fucking charge them with not to mention the death penalty is on the table here and they want the death they're going for it for both of them yeah like we'll kill them both over this shit it's oregon just for the littering they'll give you the death penalty yeah they don't care about any of that shit you're you're done so they're uh

they're they're working on that and these are the type of people these are the type of i was just reading like they said that hazelwood book the the profiler guy and he was talking about how um and he's like a real like stiff fbi guy you know what i mean like real old school just he's a real like a a real square you know what i mean gritty pays attention to numbers and facts he's a guy that you would think would be a death penalty guy just because he's so square and he was discussing how he doesn't think the death penalty he goes i mean if people decide as a society that that's the revenge they want to take fine but if they actually think they're preventing this type of murder because these are the people that when you think of death penalty

this is who you want to give it to right somebody a rapist murderer someone who does this to children people who do torture things stuff like that That's who you give the death penalty to or who society thinks of when they say, I want the death penalty back in my state. The idea behind it shouldn't be that it's a deterrent for people that are going to do it. It's a deterrent to keep this guy from doing it again because that's all it is. And he's saying how to this type of like a Randy Bacorni or a ted bundy or somebody like that the death penalty means nothing nothing because he said he had it explained to him by an offender actually that made it make sense to him he said the offender asked him hey um let me ask you a

question you ever skip school when you were a kid i said sure he goes you knew the consequences right you knew you'd get in trouble your mom would yell at you get called down to the office you do all that you knew that right and he said yeah he goes did you want that to happen he said no he goes why'd you do it then what's the answer right because i didn't think i was going to get caught right that's why yeah no the consequences don't matter if you don't think you're going to get caught great point and the guys like this have are on the narcissism personality spectrum they don't ever think they're going to get caught so they're not thinking if i do this that's the result they're thinking well that's fine for other people i won't get caught

it's it's the same thing that he likened it to ted bundy when he was getting pulled over drunk and driving and shit and they were saying, oh, he must have wanted to get caught. No, he didn't think he could be caught. He's better than them. He's such a narcissist. It's the same reason why back in the day when fighter pilots had to do dog fighting and shit, they looked for narcissistic people. People that just believe they're better than everybody else. You need the guy that goes, well, they won't shoot down my plane.

Not this one. Not me. Yeah, I'm in it. What are you, fucking crazy? You need a sky full of those guys or else people aren't going to do it. It's the same exact thing. Nothing deters this guy. He's been to prison.

It doesn't matter. He's a psychopath and a narcissist. 47 times he's talked to cops, James. Yeah. That's only in his home county. Right. And he's been all over the place. He met his wife on the West Coast, for Christ's sake. Who knows what kind of records he has everywhere.

So anyway, this this isn't a like I said, this guy isn't scared of anything. He just thinks he's going to get away with it. They both plead not guilty, obviously pleading innocence. Not me. Not me. It was her and it was him. He's up first for the trial. Not me. God, not me. It was her and it was him. He's up first for the trial. Okay. Okay.

February 91 is his trial. First question is he wants to, he wants Deborah or Debbie Lynn's prior bad acts to be allowed in so we can describe that she's dangerous and it's not just me and my sweet doting wife. That's his plan. She's fired on husbands. I didn't want to get shot at. He seeks to admit the evidence that she carried a knife as well and threatens to use it on anyone who came between her and him

which is a thing that happened recently she attacked a woman with a knife you know and then all the other shit too with her ex-husbands and everything like that um he said that the his offer for the admission of the evidence is that they were signature type identity type of acts. And they said you are allowed prior bad acts when, quote, evidence of other crimes, wrongs or acts is not admissible to prove the character of a person in order to show that the person acted in conformity therewith. It may, however, be admissible for other purposes such as proof of motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity or absence of mistake or accident. So they said the attacks on the former husbands were not similar in the method to Spicer's death, even though she stabbed Randy twice with the former ones. So they will not allow her basically reference of her being a knife wielding whatever into a knife wielding biker mama into the fucking courtroom. But also painting her out to be vicious doesn't mean he's not vicious. No, no, no.

But his Hulk, they're tried separately. So his whole case is it was all her. Yeah, I got a blowjob, passed out, came back and she had her all carved up and i was like fuck i better help and he'll say why he said he helped too in his story he also says that he was upset in the beginning that the court's requirement that he displayed to the jury the multiple tattoos on his arms and chest he argues the tattoos have no relevance to identity when from the beginning of the trial it was conceded that he was with deborah and spicer until the time of the murder so they're saying you need the tattoos so people from the bar and people and her relatives can identify and he's saying you

don't have to i'm saying i'm me and i was with her got it so that's there uh he says that the nature of the tattoos was prejudicial and he doesn't say why though the it's because there is probably uh some prison tattoos that say some racial shit which that's the other thing that swastika is not gonna look good so uh there you go a lot of other shit too there's an 88 over here and a fucking all sorts of stuff none of this is looking good why those are looking good don't like that so the uh they said also the prosecution that the unusual tattoos were assigned to his identity for a bunch of witnesses and all that sort of shit so they let the tattoos in and uh they said that they weighed everything carefully and they let him in here um the witnesses said the defendant

in part they remembered him because of his the witnesses said the defendant in part they remembered him because of his distinctive tattoos it's easy to remember him they viewed the tattoos as uh with no visual prejudicial impact they said the jury we can tell the jury that don't judge a man because he has shit drawn on him right they're adults and we told them not to and shit like that yeah at the same time the prosecution's like're going to be scared shitless if they see all his fucking tattoos. This tattooed man is the defendant. You know what we mean. There's one man here accused of murder in the whole courtroom, and he's the only one covered in tattoos.

What does that mean? Nothing, maybe. But you be the judge of that. Or the jury, I should say. It has nothing to do with me. No shit. the jury i should say it's nothing to do with me no shit in opening statements here his lawyer blamed the death on debbie lynn he said that he learned that deborah debbie lynn was bisexual soon after their marriage in july of 89 that's the other thing they've only been married

for like four months that is crazy and he didn't like it he was like i don't like that you're bisexual okay maybe you should know someone enough to know that they're bisexual before you marry them probably at least them what she doesn't hide it yeah that's the other thing she's not like hiding it at all he uh he said that i that both you know the women were naked and they were already doing the deal and he you know he said that uh deborah became angry when they were all naked and fucking around deborah became mad and just started stabbing uh spicer with a pair of scissors that was close by not even a knife just grab some scissors off the nightstand and start hacking away. Yeah.

The attorney for Pokorny also said that Debbie Lynn had twice prevented Randy from entering the bedroom where she was having sex with Deborah Spicer. He said that all three had been drinking heavily. And at one point, you know, this all comes into the thing here. He says he gets on the stand himself. Randy testifies because he's got to say, I didn't do anything. He said he twice entered his bedroom where the women were lying naked

on the bed together and his wife told him to leave. He said he went into another bedroom and just passed out. That's awakened by the noise. He went in. His wife was sitting over Spicer's body and he said she'd been stabbed and Debbie was holding a pillow over her head and had bloody scissors next to her on the bed. So she had been done stabbing her and now she's asphyxiating her.

He also said, quote, she told me she's dead. She's dead. He said that he then threatened to leave his wife he said i'm getting out of here and she said at that point if you leave i'm gonna call the cops and blame it on you yeah that's his story uh he said oh no he said he wanted to leave immediately but he didn't because he said the you know he knew that the police would accuse him of the murder because of his extensive record. They'd look at those two and be like, well, it's obviously him.

He said that his wife had threatened to shoot him if he tried to interfere with her bisexual adventures, as he called it. Quote, bisexual adventures. Shoot him. He was so scared of her. I mean, gosh, golly gee. I mean, you know, this is a man who's been in prison and got a teardrop are you kidding me the fuck out of here uh he said he believed her because she had once shot a previous husband and shot at another one and even though he objected to her

bisexuality or her at least the activities associated with it he had quote learned to live with it yeah i've accepted it because it's part of my life now. Nothing I can do about it now. During cross-examination, the DA is obviously going to light this guy up. He said, quote, isn't the real reason you never left your wife was because you were afraid she would tell the police

in your involvement in beating, sodomizing, and killing Ms. Spicer? And he said, quote, no, Mr. Horner, because I didn't do it. Earnest as can be. Threw a Mr. in there. Yep. They said, Mr. Horner, no.

No, sir. Surprised he didn't use sir. They said that, you know, she made phone calls to her boyfriend from their house and asked for help. And he said that he took the telephone away from her on one occasion and told the man she had been talking to that he better not come over or he was going to kick his ass oh he said listen here pal i don't care what she told you you come over here it's going to be an ass whooping all right click um so that was that he repeatedly denied having anything to do with killing her he did admit that he helped dispose of the body by throwing it off a cliff. And he says, quote, I was scared.

I was confused. I was just plain numb. Not buying it, sir. I'm just not buying it. You're a hardened criminal, bro. You're a very hard. You have a teardrop on your face, mister. In 1989.

And you're just a pawn in this whole game? Hulk and his wife, just a real scary lady, which she is. But he's the one who's not scared of her because he's worse. So he blames it on his wife. His attorney said that call Debbie Lynn, quote, a mean, volatile, vicious person who goes off the handle and loses all control. I don't disagree. Probably. Maybe.

But again, he said that Debbie Lynn, who had previously been married and gave the whole thing. Oh, this is when they argued about whether it would be let in or not. They do let in the stabbed Randy twice thing because apparently that's because reasonable. Yeah, that's pretty funny. So the next thing that they bring in is an expert witness. The they allow he's going to complain later that his defense allowed the prosecution to do this. They bring in one of the witnesses. It's an expert to provide testimony on behalf of the state. And they say later on that it exceeded the scope of the testimony is what they're trying

to say here. During the state's case, the state criminal state criminologist testified using the Christmas tree stain method. That's what he calls it. That's a quote. Christmas tree stain method. On material taken from her mouth, she had identified two sperm heads. During the defense of it, the defense case here, one of the defense experts, Dr. Brady, said that, in his opinion, the objects found in the victim's mouth were not sperm heads, is what he said. Another expert, Dr. Grimsbo also testified uh at this point he said that his testimony was limited to whether the material on the scissors in the van was the was hurt was the uh victim's blood basically so uh before he testifies the prosecutor contacts him to discuss the blood of the question of the blood on the scissors. During the discussion, the prosecutor also asks this guy some questions regarding the

stain method used to detect the presence of sperm in the mouth. So this Grimsbo later contacted the prosecutor to see if he could examine the slides, and the prosecutor gave them to him now on cross-examination the prosecutor asked the court for permission to examine this guy on a matter beyond the scope and that was the use of stains so basically this is a uh they're saying that he was called for one thing and they're using him for something else and they didn't have a chance to to talk to him about this other issue. Essentially, it's a technical issue, but it's it's something here. Now, the prosecutor said that in order to rebut the testimony, he needs to call this guy to testify and say that he looked at the slides.

But then they're saying it's a fucking mess, essentially, here. He testified he discussed the issue of longevity of sperm with the defense team and later received a phone call from the defense counsel stating that the defense would like to question him

only about the blood on the scissors. He told the court, this is the Grimswell guy, that the defense counsel also informed him that the defense could not tell him not to him to not to talk to the prosecution.

So you can talk to both here. He also the court also asked him whether he had ever discussed the matter of the stain method and the identification of sperm heads with the defense. And he stated he had not. The defense counsel moved to exclude this doctor from testifying. And they that doesn't they don't exclude it, basically. The defense council testified that he had told the defense team if he were asked, this is the Grimsbo guy, if he were asked, he would express an opinion on those two subjects in the slide that they were, in fact, sperm heads. So nobody can agree on shit with the sperm heads.

And at this point, I don't think it fucking matters, essentially, here. He said during closing argument, the prosecutor argued that the defendant's own expert, Dr. Grimsbo, told you that told you that that test is a valid test for sperm with a sperm tail or without. He testified to that. So these poor jurors had to sit here and listen to days of testimony about technicalities of sperm heads and tails. Disgusting. Oh, man. Just awful.

Just awful. I can't imagine just sitting around talking about sperm heads. Your eyes would glaze over. We would just fucking. Jesus. Could be like, shut the fuck up already. We're going to leave the whole jury.

We've decided we're leaving. So the jurors here, the verdict comes back and they find him guilty of the sexual abuse, attempted sexual abuse, concealing inaling in the commission the crimes the sodomy the murder all of it every bit of it you name it the whole deal sentencing comes around death is on the table like we said and it's the same jury too that heard the whole case and this jury uh the sentences they can give him the uh death sentence they can give him sentences, they can give him the death sentence. They can give him life without. They can give him 30 to life, which would be parole after 30. Or they can give him 20 to life, which would be 20 is parole.

Okay. That's as a minimum. So those are their options. It's not even. Yeah, 20 is you'd be eligible for parole after 20, or eligible after 30, or not at all, or they'll kill him. Okay. Those are the four options.

They choose to give him, you, sir, may fuck off the minimum 20 years before... How do you... The minimum. What? The minimum. They found him guilty and gave him the minimum, which makes no sense. Oh, my God. If you think he did what they said he did, you don't give him the minimum.

Maybe you don't give him the death penalty, but you give him life or at least 30. They bought that the wife was the one that did it. Yeah, I think it was so muddled that they were like, we can't bang him like it was all him, essentially. Yeah, we need tails. Yeah, we need some tails. I can't make heads or tails of this that's the problem and there's an issue here i need to maybe they just flipped a coin to this and this is a problem maybe they flipped a coin and everybody came up tails and that's what so it's not i don't know but they did it so march 1991 is debbie's trial debbie lynn now debbie lynn here uh obviously her

she has the same exact by the way parameters if she's found guilty for that her story obviously is that he made me do it all it's all his sick thing he wanted to see me with another woman and then you know kill her and all this shit he He says that, yeah, that Randy demanded that his wife and Spicer remove their clothes and engage in a sex act. He said this is her attorney. He said, however, he eventually began choking Spicer because he feared that she would notify the police about all these forced sex acts. At one point, he said that this is her lawyer debbie lynn's lawyer debbie lynn attempted to pull her husband off of the victim but just couldn't do so because he's just too strong he's so big she would have shot him if she wanted him to stop doing something like i

she's made men stop doing things her whole life i don't believe well at least after a certain point i think this is probably because she couldn't make some men stop doing things at some point in her life when she was younger so she said that shit ain't happening to me anymore you fucking touch me when i don't want to be touched i will cut you yeah and that's that's how that develops you know she got touched when she didn't want to get touched at some point i feel like when she was young so anyway um this i feel like neither person's her case and his case are both bullshit. And there's the truth is in the middle where they both had they they fuck this girl like it was some sort of fucking circus event. And then they fucking killed her so she wouldn't tell.

And then they dumped her over a cliff together. That's what I believe. But that's just me. They likely did it against her will and yeah that's together rape is is punished a lot harsher than uh public intoxication and they didn't want that that's what i'm that's i believe that together uh so she said though i couldn't pull him off uh the her attorney also characterized her as a battered woman who was afraid of her husband she said she stabbed him uh she stabbed the victim here deborah spicer only one time okay out of the four and that was only after being ordered to do

so by her husband while they were all in bed still makes he said it was fuck yeah that's well she he also said that uh this is the lawyer that the one stab wound she inflicted was the only it was just a shallow wound and that that wound couldn't have caused Spicer's death. It was just a very, she just kind of limp-wristed it. It was superficial. I did it. He also said that the other three stab wounds inflicted by, were inflicted by Randy, obviously,

and they were deeper and more life-threatening and scarier, obviously, too. And they said after the stabbing, Deborah went into, Debbie Lynn went into the living room, leaving Randy in the bedroom with Deborah Spicer. And the attorney said what happened after she left the room, she does not know. She has no knowledge of any of it.

She testifies in her own defense as well. She said she is sexually attracted to women, but she did not have any sexual interest in Deborah Spicer. None at all. She likes chicks, but not her. Not the hot ones. Not the pretty, you know, smart ones. I don't like them.

So, okay. She also described how she tried to stop her husband from attacking Spicer. She said, quote, I tried to pull him off. I couldn't redirect him. She trusted me to help her and I couldn't stop him. And then that's when she admitted the stabbing. She said, quote, he said, you are going to do this. I said, I can't do this.

He said, yes, you can or you will be next. I really thought he would kill us both. And then she was crying throughout her testimony. The district attorney asked at one point if she recalled telling a friend that she knew how to cry when she wanted or needed sympathy, and she said that she doesn't remember making that statement. That doesn't sound like me.

That doesn't sound like something I would say. So in the end, the DA says, quote, don't give her a chance to victimize someone else. If not the death penalty, don't let her out again. victimize someone else if not the death penalty don't let her out again um she said she cried a lot during the trial through the whole thing here um there is an interesting thing with this uh with this uh rebuttal psychologist psychiatrist that they have

here which i always found uh fun here this is a And he said, in making your mental health evaluation, isn't it important for you to determine whether or not the person you're evaluating is telling the truth? And he says, that's right. And he says, the question is, and don't you think that in determining whether someone's telling the truth, that their ability to recount details of a crime is a significant

factor as to whether or not they're truthful? And the answer is, in my opinion, Deborah Spicer's ability to recount the detail not spicer debbie lynn's ability to recount the details in a truthful and consistent manner around the crime satisfied me so uh they said how important of is it that someone tells you the truth and uh he says uh he says yes i mean i'm not sure what you're asking obviously everybody would like people to tell the truth. No shit.

That's how you understand what happened. Now, if you're asking me whether I expect people to tell me the truth, that's an entirely different thing. And he said, well, do you expect people to tell you the truth? And he said, no, especially in jail. And they said, why? And he said, well, most of them, that's an antisocial person, which simply means that by nature, and then it's objected to, and they go back to him. And he says, well, the distinction in the criminal population is that we psychiatrists call antisocial personality. And that just means someone who has a different set of values, a different conscience.

And these people lie and cheat and con. I mean, that's what it's all about. and con i mean that's what it's all about so i'm not so foolish to think that when they talk to me people especially about things that are important like how much time they're going to spend in prison that they're going to be honest with me yeah i just accept the fact that most of us present our best foot forward right you know we apply for a job you expand on the last job so all of the color in our lives all of the color our lives you color your lives a little bit. This group of people really color their lives and I just expect it. I don't get mad at them or anything. I just accept that this is the way they are and I try to always be to be looking at the evidence that I do

have and try to figure out what happened from there. So they said, if hypothetically a person tells you one story at one date, a month later starts changing the story, and four months later changes it again, is that something that you typically see or not? And he said, you hear the story change. I use a phrase called internal consistency. All that means every time you hear the story, it's the same. Every time I hear something, I get some internal consistency from people, but I also get a lot of internal inconsistency, meaning the story changes. That was the most useless answer human beings ever given in court. Yes and no is what he said here.

Depends on the individual. the defense keeps objecting to him saying the antisocial thing and that they're a liar because they're in jail because the defense says the jury knows she's been in custody for 18 months so that means that she contends that the testimony was thus tantamount to telling the jury that she had lied when she told her story to him and to the jury because she's in jail they're saying that he said anybody in jail is a liar and he's saying statistically yeah that's what i'm saying and they're saying you can't say that statistically people in jail are going to tell you a rosy uh version of whatever the fuck yeah put them there because they don't want to tell you what really happened because it looks fucking bad

in the john douglas profiling book the mind book, he talks about he's actually gone in and this is an FBI profiler who's dealt with horrible people. He said he has been so convinced by a person that he's talked to, a murderer, that they went back to the office, opened up the files and went through it to find out that they had all the evidence in the world. And the person 100 percent did it. And they're just a really good liar. There's a man said that happens in that I am killer documentary on Netflix that convinced a man that he didn't do it so much that the guy fought for his took it to the Innocence Project and everything to test the DNA that's in the case. They tested it. The motherfucker did it. Yeah, absolutely.

We got children. He's like the worst. That was a bonus, by the way. What is that? We got to do. We got to talk about that as a bonus episode. It's a great fucking show. It's crazy.

So anyway, the closing argument, the defense counsel says, quote, stripped, beaten, sexually abused, stabbed and strangled. Those are all those all those things occurred. But as I told you at the outset, we don't know which facts there you felt were more Randy's doing than Debbie's Debbie Lynn's doing. You may have found her just an aider and a better alone. That was sufficient to find her guilty of intentional murder and personally getting involved in the murder the way that she did so that he's saying like you might find this but you shouldn't find that the prosecution says the defense would point to randy bicorni and i want to talk about you know that in the first in the first trial of randy bicorni the jury in that case gave randy bicorni the minimum sentence yes they did that you can't

speculate you're going to have these judgment rolls uh though and on those judgment rolls it's going to indicate the offenses he was found guilty of in fact he was found guilty of uh count one felony murder the lesser included charge you indicate you know you found the defendant guilty and uh so basically saying once this all comes to fruition you're gonna have to decide her fate and all this type of shit so they talk about you're gonna have to have randy bicorni's record because you're gonna have to judge yourself why why they did come back and not a probability that he'd okay yeah so she's saying look randy they said they don't they think he's gonna be fine when he gets out he got got 20 years to life, whatever. But you don't think that she's more dangerous than him.

Even if you believe him, you still know that he's more dangerous. It's not her. So whatever he got, she should get the same or less, not more. That's all there. He's trying to put this as if you do find her guilty, make sure it's the 20-year guilty. So they find her, you, or just just a verdict guilty yeah she's guilty of everything obviously i mean they're no one's gonna believe that these two are a team yeah you know what i mean no one if if bonnie and clyde broke up all of a sudden and everyone said he made me do

everything they'd go bullshit we saw you taking a lot of joy in it sometimes men do drag the women along to do stuff like this. I feel like he found his soulmate, these two. That's what it feels like to me. Boy, oh boy, did he. He found himself with a vagina is what he found. Yeah, he's like, this is amazing. Right.

So sentencing comes along here. And like we said, he got 20 years minimum. Her, they give her, you, ma'am, may fuck off life. Oh, actual life without without holy shit or i don't know if it's life you know it's true life so i think it's 40 years that true life or whatever it is but longer than him put it that way way longer than him which that i don't agree with he gets he gets x yeah to me it wouldn't have happened without him he's the guy with the dick so this sexual shit like it's it's him so to me right she went along with it because she thought it was fun too because she wanted to fuck around with this woman also

that's how i feel like it is but james is the violence i think the only reason that he didn't get more was because the sperm didn't have tails i truly believe that i wouldn't doubt that there's a load anywhere on her uh he's more culpable than she is but i think that they believed it because he didn't uh he didn't he didn't get on her i don't know and that's why his story was my wife blew me and then i left because that way that would explain sperm heads in the other woman's mouth because then they started fucking around right so that works out but I I think the sentences should be the other way around if it's me he gets the life she gets 20 to life that's that's in my opinion anyway so one extra thing we have to talk about is he has been batted around a few years ago

Randy Bacorni as the possible suspect in another murder. Oh, no. By which I would not doubt that there's other bodies out there. That can't be the first time they did that. That can't be. It seems like they just got sloppy and picked somebody who would be missed this time. Not just that, but also the disposal. I don't think they counted on people seeing that.

Not at all. That's the other thing. They definitely didn't count on that shit. And if they were two hours earlier, nobody would have saw them. Right. You know?

Yeah. So there's internet detectives out there, as we know. And we're not talking Billy Jensen level of people who actually solve shit and find things and know how to do the work

because they're journalists and they know how to, like, research things. We're talking, these are just people who are like, I found articles about murders and I try to put together,

I try to blame people based on that. So I'm sure they solve something once in a while, but a lot of times they don't. And this is one of them. They're talking about his possible murder participation in a murder from Wisconsin in June of 1973. OK. OK. This is a man named Joseph Carggill who was 32 years old he was um he was found on in a field next to a river he'd been beaten about the head and face uh lying across his neck was a heavy tree limb and there was another piece of driftwood with blood on it nearby

and all this type of shit so uh blood was found on the log it was found on his clothes he used to he didn't have a car this guy and he walked everywhere and they're saying that he went to he used to go to bars and have a couple of beers and walk home and they're saying this particular night someone agreed to give him a ride home okay and they're also saying that randy bicorni had been in this bar that same night so they're putting those two together and saying that randy bicorni killed this guy this guy is also rumored to be gay but in 1973 in a small town in wisconsin that shit wasn't announced but they said in the paper he's never been known to date women that means in 1973 in

wisconsin that's a respectful way of saying he's gay and you know god for we don't want to you know back then so anyway they said that he was given a lift uh and they said that was about 2 a.m and then it started raining at about 3 a.m and when they found his body it was dry underneath so somewhere between two and three it rained and they keep talking about these people were really trying to put randy in that they said uh this one person says uh my post does mention randy bicorni as being one of two suspects in this murder they're talking about you know the evidence seemed to be that bicorni had gotten in a previous fight with someone else uh in that at that bar because he wasn't from around there and all this type of shit,

and that was at the same time that Cargill was there. And the other thing they mention is the fact that the vehicle that he was seen getting into was a silver van. Okay. Okay, that's pretty fine, but the problem is he didn't buy that van until 1989 and Ford didn't fucking make that van until 1976. It didn't even exist until 76, the van he had in 1989. But these people are like, oh my God, it's him.

They got a van van. Yeah. Anything missing to him? I literally read that and went, well, that was 73. It's an 80 that He bought it in 89. What the fuck are you talking about? Just Google it. Keep looking.

How quickly? Done. Keep looking. Yeah, try to find it. I'm not saying that, but we're in the wrong place. So Randy, apparently, I found him in jail. He's still in prison, but he's in Wisconsin. What?

He was transferred apparently into wisconsin it said it's a weird thing it says see jail records and i can't find any maybe he got transferred because his family's there and they wanted they wanted to give him like uh opportunity to be visits or something that or they were saying well fuck let wisconsin pay for him if they want him because they wanted to try him on these other things that he had yeah so maybe they tried him and he said he can serve a sentence there and you can have him for that we don't have to fucking pay for him because he just popped up in oregon killed someone and left they don't want him what if james what if he got paroled on that and is now serving time for something else in wisconsin well it would be hard because his commitment date here to it is 10 26 89

so that's when he was arrested so it's still his original intake date there's no outtake in another intake date so i'm not sure and the book that i found some good quotes in by the way gotta give credit where credit's due obviously crime scene true stories of crime and detection by gary king is the name of it and he has a shitload of books of all sorts of true crime stuff but uh you know a couple of quotes that were harder to find that i found in that book there so what about that everybody there huh she's still in prison too from what i found i couldn't find her anywhere but i would assume she's still in prison because it's been 30 years and she's not even eligible for parole for 40

years so wow that is that that is gresham Oregon. And one fucking hell of a crazy tale. That's the threesome from hell right there. It's the only way to describe it. That's a mess. That's why you just stop trying to force your significant other to have threesomes. No shit. Well, he doesn't have to force her to do it. She's into it.

No, neither of them forced that. They forced the third. That's the problem. They both wanted it. I don't think the third was into it. I don't think so either. So don't force thirds to fuck you. How's that?

You have each other to fuck. It's not like you're all by yourself. Be like, oh, she doesn't want to fuck. Let's just fuck each other, I guess. You don't even have to jerk off. Just fuck each other. Yeah. She's willing to blow you.

He'll fuck you. What are we talking about here? I don't understand what they're doing. I guess I don't have a sexually predatory mind so i don't think i don't think our minds go to that but someone whose mind goes to that probably would understand why the person did that clearly you're just satisfied with whatever sex you have you don't need to make it crazy to come you're fine it's not criminal i'll tell you that much it's definitely not criminal so that said if you enjoyed that episode or any of the episodes tell the world about it get on every apple podcast and stitcher and any place that you can rate and review anywhere any

app that has that give us however many stars you can give us and say something nice because it does help the show out a lot. Do that. Also, head over to shutupandgivememurder.com right goddamn now. Get your tickets to the virtual live show next week. Oh, we have a good case picked out. It's going to be awesome. We redesigned the set. Sarah did this awesome thing on the table. It's going to sound better.

It's going to look better. We stepped our game up. We'll put it that way. You're going to be impressed. It's a live show in the comfort of your own home because God knows we have no fucking idea what's going to happen with live shows. We hope to get to them, but we have no idea if it'll happen.

Check that out. Buy it right now. ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com It's also available for 72 hours after that, September the 16th and three days beyond that. And please do that. Also, while you're at it, follow us on social media. We are at Murder Small on Twitter, at Small Town Pod on Facebook and at Small Town Murder on Instagram, as well as you should also listen to the other great shows on the Upside Down Digital Network, including Game of Crimes, which is just amazing. You're going to hear stories that you've never heard before from insiders in cases that you're

familiar with and then cases you're not familiar with. But I mean, they they've talked to people like people involved in the Green River killer case that you don't hear from. People that are like, because they have hookups with that. I mean, he was a DEA agent. He's got a lot of hookups. They know a lot of people that investigate the badge. Yeah, Morgan Wright and Steve Murphy. Right.

They know some people. So, yeah, we're going to do that. Check them out. Definitely. That's every Monday, Game of Crimes. And then Life After Happy Face on Fridays with Melissa Moore and Dr. Laura Petler and between the Dr. Laura Petler and the daughter of a serial killer

you really have that's going to be a unique take as well so we are looking to bring you unique shows with unique voices and we think we've done it here so please check those out Game of Crimes on Mondays Life After Happy Face every Friday and also patreon.com

slash crime and sports we have such good stuff this week the ones that we put up a few days ago the xfl for the crime and sports episode we talk about make fun of vince mcmahon and talk about a failed enterprise i love defunct things especially when it's on their own doing like they fucked that oh yeah oh i love it so much so you can check that out the xfl because anybody at the five dollar or above level has access not only to the small town murder murder bonus but the crime and sports bonuses and the whole back catalog and everything like that and for small town murders it's that time of year again we did a love after lockup season recap so even if you haven't found it or you don't want to pay for it on prime or you don't have we and you

haven't seen it it doesn't matter we will take you through the season and it will be just as funny as if you watched it trust us check that out you can get that and everything else at patreon.com slash crime and sports and also you'll get a shout out here coming up in just a second because God damn it. We appreciate your handsome gentleman yourself and your handsome gentleman yourself as Deontay says. And with that said, I think,

Oh, PayPal too. You can get the shout out on PayPal as well. Using our email address, crime and sports at gmail.com. That said, damn it, Jimmy, I need

something good because that was a sad story about a poor young lady who had a rough ending. I need to hear a happy story about good people who never, ever, ever would throw our nude bodies off a cliff side in full view of many fishermen. Jimmy, hit me with those names

right now. This week's executive producers are Haley Givaldon, Lucas Stenzel, Anthony Renaro. I'm enjoying seeing the names of people that have been on this for a very long time and then just now getting on to Patreon. It's fucking rad. Nancy Weaver and, of course, Jordan Bennett. You guys, thank you so much for everything that you do for us. It's fucking staggering. Truly.

It's wild and we do appreciate it. Thank you. Other producers this week are Kia Morissette, Thomas Smith, Shida Perlman. I don't know. Shida Perlman? Yeah. Is that a person? I don't know.

Rita Perlman? I don't know. It's Shida. Shida Perlman? I bet it's Shida Perlman. Shida, like Rita. Yeah. Okay, there we go.

Poor Carla. Yeah. Oscar Gamble's Fro, Rabbi Shmulevich. I love Oscar. Oscar Gamble's fro. Rabbi. I love it. Peyton Meadows. Richard Bradley. Happy birthday, bud. Happy birthday.

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I appreciate you. Thanks. Hope we could comfort you a little bit anyway. At least a little bit. Galen Harris, Hobbs Rentals rentals hey would you pinch me all right uh margaret tudhill toodle tittle i don't know tunnel yeah yeah one of those kelsey kautz uh janice hill julian trenner trenner trennerden from south straya ps uh way the fuck down in in australia uh thank you patrice blankenship, Carl Kirshner, and his favorite movie is Rain of Friar.

I don't know if you know that. You wanted us to know. Ashley Long donated both ways. Thank you. Linda Brilla, Alexandria Krukowitz, I'm never going to get this poor lady's name right. Krukowitz? No. Rebecca Samantha Flaxeroni Head, Charles Bird,

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what you do and for honestly just just being making this a thing that that we can do for like a living and not have to do on a weekend it's awesome not have to do it like we're fishermen going out at 6 30 in the morning and then being exhausted all day we can concentrate all of our time and effort into this and try to bring you the best stuff we can yeah so thank you for that keeping it niche and and specific and letting us be us and be personal and not have to be something we're not yeah there was a tweet from uh have to be mainstream there's a tweet right from kyle canane saying it's it's baffling how many people think that who are you is a is a is a tweet or something you can say to somebody that does comedy and think we give a fuck. The people that know who we are matters.

That's it. Thank you for giving us an opportunity to make a living and not have to be something that anybody else knows. This is fucking great. I love this. We appreciate it. We can be your secret forever. We don't give a shit.

We're happy with that. I'll take it. What if they wanted to get a hold of you, Jimmy, and out your secret? How could they do that? You can find me on the internet where James is at as well. Where are you, James? On the internet, I hope. You know what you do?

Google the show. You can get everything. You can go to shutupandgivememurder.com. You're going to get that up there. It's going to take you. And on there, there's links to our social media. You can find us. Wherever you find us, it'll say who we are and where our social media is so do that keep coming back each and every week because

the stories are only going to get crazier next week i think we're going to do one that is different than oney one we've ever done before and jimmy will he will shit his fucking pantaloons over there next to me and i can't wait to see it push all the other fluids out of my body in the past i may as well it's the only one oh my goodness that said everybody until next week it's been our pleasure Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.