Small Town Murder - #254 - Serial Killer Happy Meal - Plymouth, New Hampshire

Episode Date: December 16, 2021

This week, in Plymouth, New Hampshire, a sleepy, little college town is sent into shock when a woman is found, horribly killed, in her own bedroom. The case then goes cold, while the killer matures, and hones his technique with more murder, and ending up a full blown serial killer. But when investigators finally think they have the whole thing cracked, they wonder if they even have the right person. In the end, multiple terrible murders do end up fixing a certain state's emergency response system! Otherwise, it's just a mess!! Along the way, we find out that New Hampshire takes the fall season very seriously, that even serial killer's switch up their methods, and that there may just be more than one terrible person, lurking around a corner!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Plymouth, New Hampshire, a horribly bloody and violent murder takes place in a sleepy college town. And while that case goes cold, the killer only gets more depraved and practiced.

Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another exciting, crazy edition of Small Town Murder. And today's is wild.

It's an under-the-radar serial killer, and it is crazy stuff today. There's some graphic descriptions coming in there we'll warn you ahead of time just in case some people are squeamish they want to fast forward 30 seconds whatever but some crazy stuff coming up today but before we get to that just wanted to say thank you first of all for everything you've done for us thank you for coming to the live shows oh yes those were wonderful thank you and they're coming up more of course we'll see you this weekend in seattle and portland thank you for your reviews on whatever app you're listening on they do help a Those were wonderful. Thank you. And they're coming up more, of course. We'll see you this weekend in Seattle and Portland. Thank you for your reviews on whatever app you're listening on.

They do help a lot. So five stars on those if you could. What you need to do first, though, head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com right now for all of your merchandise. First of all, put that merchandise on and get yourself to a live show. If you're listening to this the day it comes out on Thursday, we are tonight in Seattle. So get your tickets to that. There's a few tickets left and I think there might be a couple left for Friday too.

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We're excited for the West Coast again where it's freezing and rainy. Worse than New York. It's going to be interesting. It's going to be in the warm area that's colder than the cold area. No, can't wait. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. A treat for you this week.

We have a couple of gems this week for you. If you haven't subscribed yet, maybe this is the week for you. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. First of all, anybody $5 or above, you get access to everything. Crime and Sports bonus, small-town murder bonus. Any bonus we do, you're going to get it. And this week, no exception, two wonderful episodes for you. We have for crime and sports we

did a show on counterfeit memorabilia and that most of it is fake and it's really disturbing we've had people tweeting pictures of their autographs with the certificate from a company we know is a bunk company so it's it's bad stuff so very unfortunate yeah if you want to find out if that autograph is real, check that episode out. Because it's not only for sports, for entertainment, for everything. And then for Small Town Murder, we did something very great and close and near and dear to our hearts. We did just county and state fair weirdness that goes on at these strange carnivals in every state that happens. It is nuts.

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That said, disclaimer time. This is a comedy show. We are comedians. The story is real. There's nothing made up about the story. Nothing for, hey, let's make it funnier. None of that stuff. Real, crazy, disgusting, horrible stories that take place every single week.

And we have to make jokes about them because life sucks and murder sucks worse. So rather than the dour kind of, and then the head was removed from the body, we try to spice it up a little bit and, you know, make jokes about the murder. If there is a head being removed, that's not a source of humor. There's plenty of other stuff, like idiot murderers who think they can get away with it and can't. That's hilarious to us. So that's the kind of thing we're making fun of. What we do not do, what we go out of our way not to do is we do not make fun of the victims or the victims families why james because we're assholes but but we're not

scumbags and that's how that works so that sounds good to you we have a crazy ass story join welcome aboard if you think true crime and comedy should never go together i don't know maybe you shouldn't listen or maybe you should and you probably will like it. But if you don't, no complaining afterwards because we warned you that there are jokes. Don't complain. There were jokes in there. You know that now. So that said, I think it's time to sit back, clear the lungs and shout, shut up and give me murder.

Let's do this, Jimmy. Let's go on a trip, shall we? I'd like it. Let's get this, Jimmy. Let's go on a trip, shall we? I'd like it. Let's get going, man. Let's do it. We are going all the way to New Hampshire this week. I love it there. Up to New Hampshire.

We haven't been there in a while, too. No, it's been a minute. It's been a year exactly since we've been to New Hampshire. What was it? It wasn't Epping. It was the other time. It was, what was it? Oh, God. Hampton. Hampton, what was it? Oh, God.

Hampton. Hampton, New Hampshire. Oh, Hampton. That's what it was here. So we're heading to New Hampshire. This is Plymouth, New Hampshire. It is in eastern central New Hampshire. It is.

Halfway up there. It's about an hour 45 down to Boston, about two hours over to Portland, Maine, if you wanted to do that, and about an hour and a half to Hampton, New Hampshire, which was our last episode, which was this time last year half to Hampton New Hampshire which was our last episode which was this time last year and Hampton was pretty close to Boston it was like 20 minutes away it's a real piece of shit that town yeah this one

little bit different here it's in Grafton County area code 603 this isn't a suburb of anything this is just a little small town in the middle of the forest of New Hampshire with a tiny college in it that's how it works it's a 28 square miles so big area wow lots of woods big properties you know people have owned acres for generations and things like that here motto here is this motto by the way is he's specific. You have to like know the region, quote, bridging the lakes region and the White Mountains.

Yeah. Terrific. What does that mean to an outsider? It means nothing to an outsider. That's very specific. I guess it's bridging the hill folk to Lake Winnipesaukee. Yeah. To the to the lake folk who who are letting bob stay there

for a couple extra days while he works on it and takes baby steps is that what's going on here that's what it is i guess it is well there you go the history of this town was originally the site of an oh wow uh ab kanaki ab abunaki tribe village that was burned to the ground by captain thomas baker in 1712 oh boy he sounds like a dick uh yeah apparently this was one of many raids that the british had on american indian settlements during queen anne's war just coming in and burning shit to the ground and so since then less less of the abakan Abenaki tribe has been there since then. It feels less of a war and more of an assault. You know?

Yeah. Like, to wage war, you've got to declare it upon people, and they understand that they have to fight back. That's the thing. If you walk up to an old man online at the bank and you punch him in the back of the head and then say, I got in a fight and I won. That's not really a fight and you won.

He wasn't paying attention. He's looking over there doing his banking not expecting he needed to go into combat mode at the chase i think that's what happened so uh part of the part of the land was named new plymouth at first after the original plymouth colony in massachusetts and then they just said, fuck it. New is too long. We're going with Plymouth. So some of the people who came here originally came from Plymouth, Massachusetts. I guess they thought it was a good place to go. They incorporated in 1763. This town was incorporated, which is older than the country, literally older than the

Declaration of Independence. If you're not from America, the parts they annexed parts of other towns to make more of their town here in 1845 and 1860. In 1806, Daniel Webster lost his first criminal case at the Plymouth Courthouse. And the author Nathaniel Hawthorne was on vacation here in 1864 with former U.S. President Franklin Pierce, and he died in Plymouth while he was there in a house that later burned down. Everything burns down. Daniel Webster, is that the dictionary guy? I believe it was, actually.

And Franklin Pierce was one of the most tragic presidents ever. One kid died. Then he was on a train and his train got in an accident where one of his I think one of his kids and his wife were mangled in front of him in a horrible train accident. Like while he was president. And then he was just like shell shocked the whole rest of the time. He just kind of sat around. He was one of the reasons for the Civil war was his complete inaction because he was just fucking depressed and shell-shocked and couldn't couldn't do anything so yeah he was one of the so

he turned out to be a really useless president but uh really try you can't blame the guy honestly well he got elected because they made up uh they had some pamphlet distributed about what a great guy he was and they kind of made this big campaign that he was going to be president, and it turns out he wasn't that great of a guy. So in the early 1900s, the Draper and Maynard Sporting Goods Company sold products directly to the Boston Red Sox, and the Red Sox, including like Babe Ruth, used to come up there to pick out their bats and their gloves right up there. Oh, that's so cool. Can you imagine?

Free equipment. In an Oshmans or Dicks and then just Randy Johnson walks in. I'm looking for a new glove. I'm looking for a new hip kit. Derek Jeter pops in for a new glove. Jesus, that's wild, right? So reviews of this town. There's a few and they're mostly positive.

Here's five stars. Quote, Plymouth is a quiet but very nice town to me it's big because i come from a very small town i don't know it's it's not a big town at all when i tell you the people yeah uh but it's the kind of big that has a lot of stuff in it like what that's there there are a lot of places to eat and there's a post office right next to where I live. Wow. I mean, you've got it all covered. Five stars, I guess. There it was. Four stars. Family first community. Adorable main

street with incredible places to eat and walk. Great schools and community events. Lacks diversity and true neighborhoods as well as caters to an older demographic versus younger families. The population is half college kids, so I don't know how it caters to an older demographic. It families. The population is half college kids, so I don't know how it caters to an older demographic.

It's literally half college kids. Did a 12-year-old write that? Yeah, I don't know what they're talking about. They really cater to the 18 to 22 demographic, which I feel like is... It's a bunch of bullshit. It's about these boomers who are juniors in college. There's no Paw Patrol on ice coming through town.

It's really annoying. I don't care for it, personally. Here's three stars, okay? The winters are harsh. Oh, I guess winters are harsh is what they're going for. Harsh, cold, and snowy, but the summers are hot and humid. Is that supposed to make you feel better? It's cold as shit in the winter, but in the summertime I get heat stroke, so it's nice.

It's real warm. Some seasons have a lot of rain, but overall the weather adaptable. What? I don't know. Who are you? You just gave the vaguest weather forecast for the Northeast I've ever heard in my life. And just describe what every season is. Yeah, just describing seasons. Thank you. Weather forecast for the Northeast I've ever heard in my life. The farmer's almanac version. Yeah, what every season is.

Yeah, just describing seasons. Thank you. We have four seasons a year. It's weird. It's pretty cool. The leaves fall off trees here in the fall. Here's two stars. It's the very specific complaint here.

Quote, there is little to no public transportation. Taxis don't really exist. There is no trains or segways. No segways either. No. You live in a small town. Where do you expect? What kind of public transportation infrastructure do you expect in a town of less than 7,000 people? Guy needs a subway, James. In the middle of nowhere. I need a direct line from here to Green greenwich village i don't understand what the problem is what's the issue what are we doing what the fuck here right to cambridge i don't know why this is not happening god damn annoying it's so weird because population is 6 916 so what are you looking for what are you looking for? What are you looking for, man?

Even the college. You're looking to live in a city. That's what you're looking for. See, that's what the thing you're looking for is a city. Boston's that way, dude. You're in a college town. This college only has 3,000 students, so it's not even a big college. You're in a tiny, tiny place. My high school had that many people yeah so do

mine the it's up 17 since 2000 so people are people are coming here a female population is a little bit lower than the male population the average age here is 22.2 so young it's very 15 years under the national average and uh it's because of the college kids is what that is. All these stats are going to be skewed by it being 3,018 to 22-year-olds in town. Married population, 26%, so like half of normal because they're in college. And luckily, they haven't decided to get married yet, which is good. But it's so weird. It's all that, but the widow rate is higher for some reason.

Kids are ODing or what? I don't know what's going on. Very weird. Divorce rates lower. Single with no children, 22.5%. That's as good as it gets here for that if you're looking to party. Race of this town, 90.3% white. So pretty goddamn white. Yeah, that's pretty much all of New Hampshire. 1.2% white. So, pretty goddamn white. Yeah, that's pretty much all of New Hampshire.

1.2% black. 2.3% Asian, which is about half. And then 2.9% Hispanic. Fascinating. The whole state of New Hampshire is very Pepperidge Farm remembers. That's the best way to put it. The guy who says that, there's your average citizen of New Hampshire. That guy. He's whittling. He's who says that, there's your average citizen of New Hampshire. That guy.

He's whittling. He's on his porch. He's got some country time lemonade and a Milano. There's that, and then there's a big progressive population that just loves experimenting with weed. It's the woods, so you're going to get that, too. And then there's shitloads of heroin addicts. 22.8% are religious. So the college kids, they haven't felt any pain, and they don't need any help from any outside force at this point.

It's spread out. A couple of Baptists and an Episcopalian or two. 11% Catholic. That's the highest because Catholics are the Baptists of the North, as we goddamn well know. 0.0% Jewishish so that's there's that in this uh in this county last election in grafton county 61 voted democratic 37 republican two percent independent which new hampshire usually goes a little more on the independence sometimes they're they're known for that they They're known to be, you know, a little – New Hampshire's unpredictable.

They're an unpredictable kind of place. They like that about – They like thinking, what do you think we're going to do? Yeah, we won't do that then. That's what they do. Just to throw – Just to do a little, we better do – Not to be –

Like, they have no steadfast passions. It's just, eh, we're not going to do what you think we're going to do. How's that? It's very weird. Weird place. So the unemployment rate's about half of what it is in the rest of the country. And I think a lot of that's college kids have kind of menial jobs, as we'll see here, because the household income is $42,000 a year, about 15,000 less than the national average. But it's a lot of there's a lot of food services and stuff like that. And there's three times the educational jobs as well because the college is half the population.

So that's where all the jobs are. Yeah, definitely. Cost of living, 100 being regular average. Here it is 88.7. So not too bad. Housing is a 79. So, well, not too bad. Housing's a 79 median home cost is two hundred fifty eight thousand four hundred bucks, which is lower than the about thirty thirty three thousand lower than the national average. I feel like that's going to change, though, because New Hampshire had holy shit, a boom in it did.

Holy fuck. But this is in the middle of nowhere. This isn't commutable. This is this is, you know, you can't really commute to Boston from here. It's going to be hard. Concord. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be hard. This isn't Concord or Manchester. Yeah, it's a different there.

Even that last town, Hampton or whatever that we did here, it's a little bit different. But if you've chosen that, you know what, this sounds like the idyllic little town. You don't need taxis. You don't need subways. You don't need any of that stuff. You just need a college nearby. We have for you the Plymouth, New Hampshire, real estate report. Your average two-bedroom rental here, and that what I imagine there's probably a lot of renting going on for college kids, goes for $1,063, which is about $200 less than the national average.

It's about to be expected. I found here a four-bedroom, two-bath, 2,296-square-foot house. That's a big fucking house. It is fucked up. It is. Dude, it is a disaster. A whole lot of piece of shit, huh? Like, I don't know how the person in there that took the pictures of the inside wasn't in fear of their life from that thing falling down upon them. There are ceilings falling in. I can't even describe how fucked up this house is.

It looks like a haunted house from the outside. And then the inside is like, holy shit, it's worse than the outside. But all of this and a new refrigerator just sitting in there. Bright white, brand new, new refrigerator in the middle of this and a new refrigerator just sitting in there brand bright white brand new new refrigerator in the middle that'll take the attention off the rest of it it's awesome 99,900 bucks though all right but i mean it's it's a it's a tear down this house uh then i found a two-bedroom two-bath 1380 square foot house it's nice but boring it's a boring it's in this like boring looking like new neighborhood there's like three houses for sale that are all like on the same street and they all look the same yeah one of those type of things fine everything's updated whatever

251 500 bucks any or average house in this town then i found a six bedroom yeah seven bath yeah 4256 foot beautiful this house what gorgeous it's older it looks well kept uh very nice it's like it's the b and b from a hallmark movie town yeah you know like reed drummond lives there in the in the movie that sort of shit uh all of all of that 700,000 bucks. That's not bad for 4,000 square foot of house. It's not bad too. Inside's gorgeous too. It's beautiful.

Look, it's old, but kept nice and updated in the right places. It's a, it's a really nice house. It's a nice place. It looks, you could definitely make like an Airbnb.

Is it not an Airbnb? You can do like a real B and B out of it. It's an old house. Yeah. It's an old house. It's beautiful. Really nice things to do here okay uh not a lot to do in this town i gotta be honest with you you can do college stuff i assume drinking in the woods is a thing karaoke happening karaoke go to i don't know a bonfire'm sure, takes place once in a while. Absolutely. With rural college kids.

But I did find Plymouth's 2021 Hometown Holiday Celebration. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Sponsored proudly by the Rotary Club of Plymouth. So there's that. Why is it always the Rotary Club? You know that's going to be a big party if the Rotary Club's involved. They're always fucking involved here.

They're fucking tiny cars in they're weird hats i think those are shriners is those shriners no the rotary does it too right they have tiny cars and weird hats in parades and shit right oh maybe i don't know are you thinking of i don't know maybe i am thinking of shriners i don't know and i'm confusing rotary with chamber of commerce so i have no idea what i'm talking about here both the rotary club and the shriners i don't know what you do you're fucking keeping it under wraps keeping secret sons of bitches i think the shriners have hospitals they have like free hospitals i think for like children's cancer and shit so the rotary club just like i don't know what they're doing old telephones i was gonna say they're trying to bring back old telephones is

what they're doing they're really tired of this touchstone fad that's been going on for the last 50 years or so. They're getting legislation passed to get rid of intersections and just build rotaries. Oh, that would be it. They're the roundabout people. Yeah. Roundabout club sounds worse than rotaries. It does. So this took place already.

This took place like 10 days ago. Friday, December 3rd, they had the Festival of Trees. Gotta have that, which is at the Silver Center for the Arts. Enjoy the display and take a chance to win one of the fully decorated Christmas trees. Oh! Why would you want to win a fully decorated one? I don't have to put this shit together? No, kids, we're not decorating the tree.

It's already done with these meaningless ornaments. But I want to put our stuff on it. Nope. No. This is what the Rotary Club felt we should have in our living room. The Rotary already did it. This is what we're doing. And Friday night only is special performance by PSU, which is Plymouth State University,

which is where we are here. Mixed emotions and vocal order, which I assume is some vocal group. So that's just the kickoff, though. That's from 10.30 a.m. to 8 p.m., Festival of Trees. Then Saturday, it really opens up now. That's when it gets going. That's when it gets really hot. The 10th annual PES Jingle Bell 5K Trail Run.

So there's that. 9 a.m. to 12 a.m. was a wreath-making workshop canceled. Canceled. It's the only event canceled. I don't know what the... We're running in 25 degrees, but we can't be indoors building a fucking wreath? No wreaths. I apparently know wreaths there.

Yeah, they're not going to have that. Then they do the Festival of Trees again that day. I guess it continues. The Kids Outdoor Holiday Bash. Oh, just, I don't know what they do there it's for kids k through five so little kids here comes two o'clock 2 p.m the best time slot for entertainment that you can get if you're the performer the psu holiday concert fun for fun for all ages doesn't say what that is or what they'll be performing i I assume Christmas songs of some kind. It's children friendly, so it sucks.

Yeah, it's going to be bad. Four to five, the Main Street Hospitality Tour. Okay. Stop in to warm up, it says. It's going to be cold, so you want to walk in there. And then 430 to five, Holiday Carol Singalong. Jesus Christ. It's led by Tim Keefe, Jimmy.

Oh, you know it's going be it yeah it's gonna be a quite quite the occasion and good news it says all capital letters free oh i don't have to pay money to sing fucking christmas carols in the street wow that's a deal what a steal him not just take the name chief as is as you know like why not have a stage name there keith like yeah so many options to go with. He's probably like the librarian, though. That's the thing. Or like he teaches second grade.

Librarian named Chief Keefe. That'd be cool. Chief Keefe, the librarian. 5 p.m. holiday parade begins. Bands, floats, walkers, horses, dancers, and of course, Santa. Hell yeah. By walkers, I just pictured old ladies with walkers in the parade, by the way, not just people walking. I saw white walkers.

There you go. And Santa. There you go. 6 p.m. is the Chill Buster Barbecue. Oh. I don't want the words barbecue and buster in the same sentence if I'm going to eat it because it sounds like it's going to explode my stomach and my general gastrointestinal system. Alex Ray and Plymouth Rotarians, okay, serve up chili chowder burgers and dogs.

That sounds awesome. 6 p.m., visit with Santa at the bonfire on Green Street. Santa's at the bonfire? He's at the bonfire drinking. Fucking beer in his hand. He's going to have a malt liquor in his hand, down in it, going, come on, kids. Hop up here. Santa's got some things he malt liquor in his hand, dabbing it, and going, come on, kids. Hop up here.

Santa's got some things he needs to tell you, too, all right? Throwing empties at elves and telling them, beer me. God damn it. And then they're like, Santa, what's wrong?

And he's like, Mrs. Claus is a bitch. She's a bitch. Put another log on it, kid. Oh, God. He's just hammered. Like, oh, I think you're the problem, Santa. I would go to that fire.

I would, too. December 5th, Sunday, skate with Santa. Okay. What if he breaks his ankle? Then what? The kids are like, oh, no, Christmas is canceled. Santa's hurt. I want to see that, too.

And it all closes up with the Pemi Choral Society winter concert there, performing Snow Angel, whatever the fuck that is. So there's that. Enjoy that, everybody, and have fun. Hope you loved it. Hope you loved it. Crime rate in this. Yeah.

Crime rate, who we're interested in. Property crime, slightly high, but in the range of normal, about 10% high. And violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime, just about average. So right about on the average. Yeah, it's college. So you're going to get that. That said, let's talk about a murder that happened here.

Let's do it. And there'll be more than one that we have to talk about today. There is a lot of murder today, guys, everybody, people. Murder. We have to go back to 1991 oh not too long ago no i mean this is you know i mean nirvana's breaking out right now this is oh boy we're in a we're in a definite transition time things are getting less neon yeah through yeah black is being fucking embraced over the next two years neon will be phased out for flannel. It's an interesting time in America, everyone.

Going gray, red, and black. I like it. Let's do it, everybody. 1991, Plymouth, New Hampshire. We will talk about Teresa Ann Reed, who goes by Tess. Tess is what everybody calls her. She's 30 years old. She grew up in nearby Rumney there.

Went to high school there and everything like that. It was close by. She went to Plymouth State College and graduated with a business degree in 1983. Right. And she got a job at the college. She was the assistant registrar at the college at this point in time. And, yeah, she lived near the school alone in one of – it it's like a three apartment building has three apartments in it and it's just a little walk from her job she just can walk to and from her job in a nice little we we described a small circle of

life yeah a little idyllic town she's from over here she can drive to her parents and have sunday dinner and all that stuff here walks back and forth to work. Yeah. It's great. Yeah. It's a great thing. Except when she doesn't show up for work one day. Oh, no. She doesn't show up for work. And after two days of her not showing up for work, she is checked on, obviously.

And she's inside of her apartment. Unfortunately, they find her. She's been stabbed nine times when they find her. She's been horribly, horribly murdered here. I mean, it's a scene. She is. She's fought back? Yeah, they find her kind of smushed between the bed and the wall.

Oh, no. With nine stab wounds. And she's just been, been you know there's been a definite scuffle here and it's it's it's a bad scene to walk in on and um they this town goes ballistic over this by the way they go you know everybody freaks out um they get the immediately they bring in the state police in here they're not not messing around with doing some boogeyman scenario. This is horrible. They're not bringing in the, you know, the what's the one guy, the game warden in the one episode.

I'm bringing in the game ward. The mayor's not trouncing around in the victim's blood going, well, what's over here and picking shit up and handling it. They're actually on top of this. And county boys stay out. Yeah. They bring in the state major crimes unit right away into this uh soon as they find it here and they they really go at this hard because it's a small place like who could have done it you know so they assume it's somebody she knows just being at the way

the town is so they interview dozens of people that swells into the hundreds range is where they interview a lot of students as well who has she dealt with in the last two weeks she's the assistant registrar everybody thousand people that are that could have been yeah involved with her that's what i mean everybody so it's like shit everyone knows who she is everybody so it's like and if they didn't know her personally they knew of her so it's just she's just there. So they interview her co-workers, neighbors, friends, something trying to figure out anything they can. They can't even figure out the time of death because they just know sometime in the last two days they don't even know. So it's that makes it even worse. Obviously, the only thing they can rule out after the first little while is they rule out that it involved a disgruntled student.

Their initial suspect is a disgruntled student who caused a bit of a kerfluffle at the registrar's office and was mad at her. Who knows what happened? They couldn't register for something and they wanted to. And he said, what the fuck, man? This is bullshit. Found up in a class he didn't register for something and they wanted to. And, you know, he said, what the fuck, man? This is bullshit. In a class he didn't register for. Yeah. Got angry.

And I mean, that's people get angry all the time and everybody. So that's normal. And it turns out that he had a, you know, wasn't him full alibis with people for whatever. It wasn't missing the whole deal. So they asked the police, is this a random event? Maybe because one of the campus officials said it's got to be a random event. We don't think it's they were also covering their college's ass when they said that. I mean, we don't think it's anyone that knows her from the college.

I mean, it's probably somebody who came off the highway and stopped for a burger in town there at the diner and just decided to drift or a foot. Yeah, obviously a drifter. Yeah, clearly. We have a hitchhiker scenario. Has anyone talked to Rucker Hauer? Is he involved in this? I almost referenced him, I don't know, maybe four weeks ago. And I was like, I don't even know if James knows who that guy is.

Yeah, Rucker Hauer? Yeah, of course I know Rucker Hauer. He's a goddamn hitchhiker. So, yeah, there you go. And a lot of other things. Yeah, but I don't know which is scarier, though, James. Is there a kid on the loose or somebody that works at the college that's dangerous? Or which is, is the drifter worse?

The drifter's worse. I think you hope it's personal. Yeah. Because if it's personal, then it's not going to spread. Everybody else is safe. Then everyone else is spread. If it's she made somebody mad and they killed her we get it if it's a boyfriend okay don't go out with that guy whatever but like yeah when it's just we don't

know who did it might have been a random thing could be a serial killer a drifter then people nobody's safe oh my god i understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one

and watching along with part two as it airs on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery+,

religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church

for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle in theory, walking through the forensic evidence and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened.

And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. He said, the cop, when asked about that, they said, well, this campus official said it might have been random. And he shook his head and he said, quote, if that's where the information in this case was leading, we would have disclosed that immediately. Because they don't want, you know, they want people to. We got to tell the public. Yeah, there's a panic afoot here.

So about Teresa here, her brother said, quote, she was, I'm sorry, this is the president of the university, said she was vibrant, happy, full of contagious enthusiasm and just a wonderful person. She brightened a room when she walked in and cared deeply about the students. He also said after that, you didn't walk at night alone. It was shocking. So people, everything in this town changed immediately it went from carefree students walking around doing shit to getting they're getting in groups of eight this this uh young lady here meredith hale who's 19 at the time she said i wouldn't even walk with just two people now she said because her dorm is a short walk from where theresa lived and another woman another young lady cindy nadau she said that uh

last night i saw people in groups of eight or more everyone is worried that's what's happening now it's all these huge groups are walking around and um finally the only reason the cops came was because a co-worker said she hasn't showed up for work for two days which is how many times have of our murders people with jobs get found quicker we know that we've like how many of our murder victims have only been found because their job called the police after three days because they haven't heard from anybody that's it it's all that's it's crazy if you're not employed you're no one's looking for you you know it's fucked up man yeah mine is this scary uh my mom would never be looking for me you know what i mean thank god for you because uh i'd find you yeah jimmy it's time we got to record

yeah and then you get where the hell is is small town murder messages and tweets coming in. So, yeah, poor Teresa, though, found nine stab wounds. And she the students were obviously freaking out. They put extra security officers on patrol. They said that dormitories were on a mandatory locked 24 hours a day, all the main entrances. The college made on-campus escorts available. They would have like, you know, a couple of the biggest guys they could find. There were like a team of escorts to walk people home.

So, yeah, also stores in the area experience huge sales of ammunition, door locks, mace, shit like that. All the normal starts coming off the shelves quick. It's all a normal. I'm scared of my house stuff. The state police captain here said, quote, We certainly don't want to cause any anyone any undue alarm. The investigation is continuing and people should keep their eyes open. And if they see anything unusual, please call us. They said they again, could it be a random act random act and he said we haven't ruled it out we truly don't know which is not what you want to hear from the police a week after a murder so um people were

the parents were coming in to visit their kids at school and make sure they were okay and uh it's crazy one of the parents here said quote i heard it on the news and they didn't have a suspect that's a big concern concern especially after what happened in florida referring to fucking yeah referring to that yeah that's because this is 91 so it was only a few years before this and that's still in people's minds of yeah someone could go in there and butcher a bunch of girls i mean who knows who knows? It's fascinating how fast we're desensitized to things like this because Phoenix had two fucking serial killers operating at the same time in 2003, 2004.

Shit, yeah. Nobody changed a fucking thing about their lives. No, no, no. That's in a city. That's what you get. Unless it's like Richard Ram's like richard ramirez yeah because everyone in la people lock their windows and people did act differently with him and there's only a couple you know what i mean david berkowitz people didn't go sit in cars and

shit like that but it has to be somebody real famous extravagant yeah in a small town it could just be one murder and people freak out it could be a husband and a wife and i'd still freak out they do they do um one of the university person here said that uh a large percentage of our students are apprehensive for many of them it's the first time they've been away from home we only hope there's some closure to this quickly who said said timothy keith by the way chief keith chief keith dean of students and director of residential life we found out who Tim Keef is. He's the dean? Hell yeah. He's the Dean of Students.

Why does he not go by Chief Keef? He's the dean 30 years ago. Yeah. So either he's still the dean. And now he's playing music? He might be like an ex-mayor now for all we know. You know what I'm saying? Like who the hell knows what he's done?

Where else could he go from Dean of Students in 30 years? He's certainly the chief. he's definitely the chief he's leading the carols and that is he's so awesome they have to make sure that you know it's free because you'd imagine you'd get charged for that that's never happened in these towns no where we come up with the guy later on. That's wild. He pops in to be part of the story. Never, ever happened before. That's amazing. As I'll explain, by the way, do not think that this case is over because there are, you need to listen to the end, this one. There's so much happening.

And I will also explain to you how you think that's coincidental there's something way more coincidental that happened that i can't tell you about now because i'll give the whole story away okay you know we'll tell you about it later they made telephone hot lines for anyone who's got counseling needs any of the kids that are freaked out so um they said everyone's saying they're taking extra precautions one girl said we don't know what's going on my friends and i went walking last night and i said i'm not walking by that house i'm spooked we're uptight we didn't expect it i've lived north of boston all my life up here you just don't expect this yeah so yeah that's the thing this was the safe place this is where their

parents were like yeah you can go walk around up there and it'll be fine to get you out of Boston. You know, I want to send you there. There's all kinds of weird stuff that happens. Kinds of weirdos and murderers everywhere. So that case from 1991 quickly becomes cold. Yeah. They have nothing. That's awful.

They don't have shit to go on here. It's awful. Absolutely awful. The poor Teresa Reed's family gets no closure on this whatsoever on that case. It goes cold. The students eventually, you know, kids graduate. They forget about it. New kids come in and it's like it never happened.

So there and it'll be a legend of that's the murder house in a small town with the college kids like that. Like, oh, that's the 91. Yeah, that's I heard over there. There's where and it'll be like the wrong house by then telephoned into something totally different on the other side of the street yeah totally some poor old lady lives there for 40 years sitting on the stoop of the real murder house pointing at another house saying never go to that house it's creepy it's creepy there man so creepy so that brings us uh you know three years go by that brings us to you know, three years go by. That brings us to December 3rd, 1994.

And this is in Lexington, Massachusetts, which is about 25 minutes outside of Boston. It's a suburb of Boston. Now, Lexington here, it's 915 Massachusetts Avenue in Lexington, to be exact, is the address that we're going to go to. Boy, is this New England. This is very New England. Lexington, Mass Ave. Mary Lou Sale is who we're going to talk about. Mary Lou Sale.

I don't know how you pronounce it. Sale or Sale. It's S-A-L-E. That's Sale. That's Sale to me. I'm going with Sale. So Mary Lou is forty nine years old and she works as an accountant here. She recently moved to Lexington. She's only been here a few months.

She just got here. She was from Los Angeles. Oh, boy. Yeah. And her daughter is a student, not even at Plymouth State, but at Wheaton College, which is in Norton, which is pretty close striking range. All these towns are 20 minutes away from each other. Right, yeah. So she came here, immediately got a job as an accountant with Wellesley, in a place in Wellesley, the town, the firm of Friedberg and Garlic. Friedberg and Garlic? Sounds like cheese. Garlic.

It's garlic with a k on the end hilarious garlic that's awesome so uh friedberg and garlic i'd go to that restaurant that sounds delicious so uh she's a tax specialist is what she is she specializes in tax accounting yeah good lady to know so she lives alone she's got to rent a house. She didn't buy a place. She rents a house. It's a two story house. Nine fifteen Massachusetts Avenue.

And so December 3rd, 1994, she went up to her room. Her bedroom's on the second floor of her house. She went up there. She put on her pajamas, gets into bed, reads a book until she falls asleep. Reasonable? A lot of people do that. Average lady thing. Average just anybody.

Lay down, you read, you go to sleep. It's just normal. Sounds like a 49-year-old accountant to me. She didn't like, oh, then she went out and she had like three dominatrix jobs she needed to do, and then she did that. Just a real stomping to do. Yeah. She really had to stomp a couple of nutsacks.

There's a couple of CEOs that needed their, you know, to be put in their place. They like to pay for that. So, no, she's just a real average, you know, nice doing her thing lady. So she's in bed. She reads. Her neighbors saw her lights on in her house until approximately 930 p.m. Which, by the way, who's looking at their neighbor's lights? Can you imagine?

Why are you looking at my windows at 930 p.m. to see if there's lights on? Could you look at looking out? Mary Lou still got her lights on, honey. OK, what time? Nine. All right. I'll check back at 930. Like, what the fuck are you talking about?

What weirdoo i couldn't tell you i have no idea any my neighbor i mean i got houses all around me i don't know what time i fucking go to bed i could if you put me on the spot i could not tell you what kind of car my next door neighbor if you put me on the spot i don't know i don't look i don't care it's not my concern i literally don't know mine park them on the fucking street so I know what the one. Maybe a Honda. I don't know what that guy drives. Hyundai.

Hyundai. Honda. I don't know what the fuck. It's something. Directly across the street. Directly next to me. I know what they drive. I know what he drives.

I don't know what his wife drives. Guy across the street. I know what he drives. Not his wife. That's what I mean. These people know what time she turned her lights off that night. That's wild, man. So it's all these goddamn stories of these neighbors.

They were looking out the window and they saw a car they never saw before. So they wrote the license plate down. What? The guy next to me might know my schedule, though, James. If I ever go missing, he might be like, I saw lights on. The guy puts my trash cans in for me. Oh, my God. I put my cans out and then

in by like 10 a.m they're back in their place he he like waits for the trash man gets them emptied for me and then puts them back it's amazing he does not want to look at your trash cans no i'm not looking at this fucking guys empty cans yeah what is it's 10 30 already where is he so uh one of her neighbors was awakened by the sound of breaking glass sometime between 11 30 p.m and 12 15 a.m so you don't you know exactly when the light went off but you don't got a 45 45 minute window for glass breaking 45 minute window for glass breaking and would you wake up if glass broke not in your house and then go right the fuck back to sleep you'd go what the fuck was that i don't know that'd have to be a loud crash of glass to wake you up and then to actually stay awake it would have to be in your house otherwise you'd be like

wasn't in our house fuck it who cares back to sleep Back to sleep. Note the time. Go to bed. That's it. So that's on that 1215 would be going into December 4th. And then December 5th, Mary Lou doesn't show up for work at the accounting firm. And December 6th, Mary Lou doesn't show up for work at the accounting firm. So her coworkers call the police department to say, can you do a well check on this lady? And she works for us.

She's very dependable, and she won't answer the phone or come to work. So we're a little worried about her here. She's not the one to kind of ghost her accounting job. It's not really her style. So she's very dependable. So they arrive at the house on the morning of tuesday december 6th and the first thing they notice is at the back door a pane of glass has been shattered okay because they do a perimeter first just to see if there's anything that looks like it's been broken into right or

anything like that if you need backup probable cause to to be able to go in you know well if you're doing a well check you can you remember our last one case where the lady didn't want to come out, but she had a murder. They were like, we're coming in and making sure no one's injured in there because we got a call, period. That's the law. And they kicked her out. So, yeah, it's a well check. They're going in either way. But I think they're doing to see what they might encounter in there doing a thing.

If they see, you know, a big window broken out with a, you know, something, a stool up there to climb in there. Oh, wow. This looks pretty obvious there's that and then also no sense in breaking another window when this one's already broken that's well one right here bob so they notice a pane of glass on the back door has been shattered and um they enter the house and what they end up finding is Mary Lou's almost naked body here on her bedroom floor. Okay. Kind of between the bed and the wall as well here.

Her only clothing that she's wearing is a pajama top, which has been ripped open because buttons have been torn away from it. It's like a traditional pajama outfit with the with the button down shirt like you're going to work i don't know why stripes on it yeah something like that which makes no sense in pajamas to do that make it nice and easy yeah let me get eight but it's like a little suit it's so weird so she's just just in that's been ripped open. Two buttons are missing from the pajama top. So when it was torn open, they popped off. And they found one of the buttons on her bedroom floor as well. They never found the second button.

It was never recovered. The bottoms of the pajamas were on her bed, and a pair of underwear were on the floor. So there had been some things going on here. They found three human hairs that didn't belong to her on the pajama top. So that's a pretty good place to start. Some animal hairs as well that could have been dog hairs and some white fine animal hairs were also found at the scene. So two different animal hairs and three human hairs found on her and around her. So the cause of death is the other thing that they found around when they

came in. There's all this around her neck is a nylon stocking. Oh boy. Oh, by the way, her skull has been bashed in as well. Why would you? Um,

so multiple, multiple blunt force trauma to the head, strangulation by ligature. That is the cause of death here. All the testing for evidence of sexual assault came back negative. They found no other fluids in there or anything like that. So they don't know if there could have still been sexual assault. Sure. That's the thing. So they're not

positive um so but there's just no fluid there she was struck seven times on the head with a blunt object so i mean this is just somebody really had it in and there was a struggle obviously i mean the clothes weren't like you know put in one place the pants over here underwear over here shirt ripped she's in between the bed and the and the wall that she bashed in strangled this is a it's a goddamn mess this is really a mess so um she's been dead for two to three days they're not sure exactly right it's the other problem and um the thing they notice right away when doing the crime scene is they say she's always a tidy housekeeper everybody says her house is very tidy she's always a tidy housekeeper everybody says her house

is very tidy she's an accountant everything in its place type of deal you know jewelry was found out of place on her bedroom vanity and strewn on the bedroom floor a bunch of jewelry like just thrown everywhere which is a strange very strange the two purses she used were missing so no purses were found in the house and they were never located. They never find the purses. A lot of her personal belongings, purse, credit cards, wallet, certain items of jewelry all missing from her house. So all gone. OK.

Certain items are missing. But there's some that's just scattered around. It's a very strange crime scene that they can't figure out who steals some of the jewelry. Right. Why would you do that? That doesn't make sense sense unless you look through what's fake and what's real but how do you know does he got a loop in there yeah who is this who is this guy you know what i mean right is he coming in with a fucking loop going all right now that i've killed her let me set up a workstation and really what's real what's fake i don't know about this one that's

a fugazi he's throwing it aside like you really got to be to know your jewelry to do that you have to be a smart smart person so well maybe not because you're killing someone for it so that that takes away your intelligence right it's all of it yeah knocks you right back down to stupid at that point so uh the two drawers of a small vanity next to her bed had been opened and two rings were on the floor to like you know that you wear two rings uh the sliding glass door to the downstairs not a glass door the sliding door to the downstairs closet where she kept her purse was partially open so that looks like it might have been open and then kind of half-assed closed just somebody kind of

pushed it flung yeah yeah the middle dresser the middle drawer of a seven drawer dresser as well she had like a you know a tall dresser with seven drawers the middle drawer located opposite her bed was also partially open this drawer contained her underwear pantyhose and nylon stockings including most likely the one that's around her neck so this person got it from her looked for it yeah that's the other thing i gotta say too and i hear this all the time we we look at so many murder cases you would be shocked shocked how many murderers come completely fucking unprepared not necessarily unprepared just unarmed unprepared that's unprepared yeah if you went if you went to go fishing and you show up with no pole you're unprepared just unarmed unprepared that's unprepared yeah if you went if you went

to go fishing and you show up with no pole you're unprepared like what are you gonna do you know reach in and try to grab it like right you're gonna have to rock and bludgeon a fish yeah you're gonna have to grab a stick and try to fashion something like that's what these people are they're i'm gonna look through your drawers yeah now a lot of them using your shoelaces as fishing line with a big long stick. A lot of times when they see something like that, that will be evidence. Every case is different, but they look at it as that's probably evidence that burglary was the main cause here. And they didn't expect to kill anybody.

That's why they didn't come with weapons. You know what I'm saying? It rolls out premeditation for sure. A little bit. Not necessarily. No. Yeah. weapons you know what i'm saying but i think it rolls out premeditation for sure a little bit no yeah because we've had plenty of cases where people people do that they come to murder someone with nothing nothing use a kitchen knife out of the out of the block it happens all the time so so you can't be positive but that's a sign of it anyway so they also found blood not visible to the eye that they did you know they did the luminol on and all that shit it was discovered on the four bottom drawers of her dresser

including the drawer where the nylon stockings were kept there's blood it was like clean those either that or it was a small amount that just kind of got smeared into the dresser into the wood kind of that sort of thing if it's a dark color dresser kind of got smeared into the dresser, into the wood kind of, that sort of thing. And if it's a dark-colored dresser, you could... It'll disappear in a second. Yeah, totally. You could see that if it's a little bit. There's no...

They didn't know the source of this blood. It wasn't hers. That's all they could tell. This blood, not hers. So they're like, okay, that's a new one. Now, the hairs that they found. Here's some physical evidence here. a new one now the hairs that they found here's some physical evidence here they are three human caucasian head hairs removed from her pajama top two of the hairs were brown and had been naturally

shed okay so if whoever's doing whoever's here has got some they're here for just in a quick strangle they just shed two hairs on her so i, that's they might be losing their hair. Someone's on the look for. I don't know. Well, one of the hairs was gray and had been forcibly removed. They could tell scientifically yanked out FBI Special Agent Christopher Hopkins said that a forcibly removed hair is a hair that's not ready to be naturally shed since it's still actively growing in the scalp yeah there you go uh if that's how you know scientifically they also testified or later on had all this uh evidence to testify to that there's a number of ways that a hair could be forcibly removed he said he couldn't be sure you can tell it was forcibly removed but he's not magic he can't tell how it happened he he said he couldn't ascertain

these things he doesn't know the amount of force used to remove the hair because that would depend on the person's scalp and you'd have to do a very complicated scientific lab scenario to figure that out uh whether the hair had been transferred directly or indirectly to her pajama top he said don't know if that's from the assailant or if that might have been on the assailant from somewhere else or if that might have been on her from the laundromat. We have no idea. Also, he doesn't know when the hair had been removed.

Another thing, I don't know that either. This could have been, could it have been the first responders? Not the yanked out one probably, but could have, I mean, someone could have shed two hairs on her. That's a thing that happens. And,

and a lot of times too, the other problem with the hairs is this is a thing they don't take into account enough. And especially back in 1991, a lot of times you will get trace evidence that is not even from your scene or your victim. It will be the bag that they were in. Wasn't cleaned up enough.

Something in the morgue, something stuck to it. That happens all the time. And they like well how about collecting it yeah it's it could be a guy collecting it so they don't know um anyway about her uh they she apparently she sounds cool as shit first of all she uh this is how her friend described her she loved needlepoint reading mystery thrillers a a good steak, cappuccino, cigarettes, antique shopping, her two cats, and the East Coast. She hated healthy food, exercise, sloppy clothes, a dirty house, and anyone who refused to balance their checkbooks. Because she's an accountant. Yeah. Sounds like our audience.

Yeah. I was just going to say, she would have fucking 100 percent listened to this show. Yeah. She would have a cheer up bitch tattoo right now. She absolutely would. Like I'm I'm not only sad that she's gone because that's a terrible thing, but I'm sad because I feel like we lost a listener. That's what it feels like. We could have had a friend.

Yeah. It sounds like she would have been cool, liked us while she smokes and eats steaks and was like, ah, I want to see murder. Shut up and give me murder. You know, she would have been cool. So anyway, the first person they look at for this is they say who has access to the house. That's a good thing. Well, her landlord lives right across the street, owns a couple of houses here. Now, landlord is Dr. Ronald Lang, L-A-I-N-G.

He is a professor of ophthalmology at Boston University School of Medicine. Wow. Yeah, that is a lot. That's impressive. He's an impressive guy. He said he'll cooperate fine with the police. He's her landlord. He had access to her home.

Obviously, he has opportunity opportunity and they think a possible motive as well here so they want to look at him right away so um yeah he is the also the chairman of a local company and like we said a research professor at boston university he's 60 years old he has reddish orange hair so definitely caucasian um he lives also on massachusetts avenue about six houses down from mary lou so uh he owned her house as well as the house in front of it across the street at 9 17 massachusetts avenue and then he lived also down the street so he's doing well he's doing very well he's a goddamn doctor he should be doing well if you if you go to medical school and do all that shit and then you don't do well you have fucked up because you owe a lot of money so you better make good on that gambling you fuck

exactly enough with the coke you went to medical school you know how bad that shit is for you stop doing it god damn it jesus christ so um the landlord here he had found mary lou attractive and had asked her for dates um a few different times but she always refused yeah come on mr ferrelli what are you doing here as a guy yeah as a guy 60 years old right she's gonna get checked every month she's 49 i mean it's an age appropriate and all that but she said no so it's fine to ask once they're both educated people he's a you know professor she's an account it makes sense but if she doesn't like you move on bro it doesn't make sense because she's you're her landlord yeah yeah i mean in that case creepy that's great i just meant in general it's not like he's 60 and

she's like going to the college you know she's freshman. And he's like, listen, honey, I'll take you to drive in movies. I'll take you for a malt. That's not what we're talking about. Appropriate. But the association sure in the fuck is. Don't fuck your landlord and don't fuck your tenant. That's on this show. Yeah, this is as less creepy as it gets because everything's creepy on this show.

As it is creepy. You shouldn't try to fuck your tenants at all. But and she refused. Good. She wanted nothing to do with him. And, yeah, she, I guess the day before the day she was discovered, December 6th, he was talking to the tenant at 917, which is the house across the street. And the tenant went to speak to him about repairs he needed to do and he at the tenant asked the landlord asked the tenant have you seen mary

lou and the tenant said no i haven't and uh also the tenant said that he thought it was strange that she hadn't gone to work and maybe she's sick you know her car's in the driveway she hasn't gone to work maybe she's sick the landlord replied quote i the driveway. She hasn't gone to work. Maybe she's sick. The landlord replied, quote, I think she went to California. What? Yeah. And then the tenant said, well, her car is still here. So, you know, maybe not. And he said she could have taken a cab to the airport.

I mean, what are we talking about here? She could have walked to California. She could have walked to California. You don't know. She could have. She's following Forrest Gump. We don't know what she's doing. to Kelly? You don't know. She could have. She's following Forrest Gump. We don't know what she's doing. So when he when interviewed by police on December 6th, this was after Mary Lou had been

discovered, obviously. Otherwise, they'd have clairvoyance if they talk to him. We want to talk to you about a future murder. He informed the police that he had been in her home on November 29th was the last time he'd been there to perform requested repairs. This was a authorized visit. The victim here, Mary Lou, had left him a note on December 28th, which he gave to the police. He said, this is the note. And yeah, he listed the necessary repairs. And he said he attended to them and he wrote her a note telling her, I fixed the shit that you wanted. It's here. So he said he entered the house by using his own keys and in attempting to repair a leak he went into the bedroom and opened the middle drawer of her dresser the lingerie drawer why would you do

that you dirty weirdo and quote reached inside to move the dresser because he was going to move it away from the wall in her bedroom to fix a leak on the other side i don't know okay yeah i gotta cut through the drywall here well if it's tile on the back side you know that's a bitch to to repair so you just the drywall is easier also it's new england so that's fucking it might be plaster that's a bastard to repair it might be play we don't know when it was built it might be plaster but either way um so he went into her bedroom and the one drawer he moved to try to move her dressers her lingerie drawer yeah a woman he's asked out a couple of times that's i think he went in there to look at her fucking underwear let's be honest here

yeah i was gonna look at was i was going real light on that that's the least gross thing he could have done here. So he said he did that, but he ultimately decided against moving the dresser, he said. But he needed to get a grip on it to see how. So he had to open the drawer and touch it with his hands. Maybe it was heavier than he thought, James. Well, that's what he said. It was too heavy to move. And also he said it was so heavy, it's probably going to scratch up the wood floors if he tries to move it alone.

So you need to pick it up to move it so it doesn't scratch the floor so he pushed in the drawer and obviously just went right back to repairs he didn't go through her underwear or anything like that i'm not a cop and i want to arrest this fuck right now yeah it gets creepy here um when asked about they asked him well what did you see in that drawer that you touched because you said you opened up a drawer. So if the fingerprints are in your bedroom, it might be yours because you opened up the drawer. What was in that drawer there? He said, this is the landlord. He answers back, quote, why?

Was she strangled with a nylon stocking? What did you do? What? None of that had been released to the public. The stocking was the thing they kept secret for the murderer, basically. That's the thing they didn't release to the public was she strangled with a nylon stocking. They just said blunt force trauma. Let's assume that this is just a dummy that just blurts out dumb shit and just happened to be right.

Why? He's not a dummy, though. We know that. With a nylon or some shit? Why? We know he's a very, very intelligent man. That's the thing here so there's that which is odd um very very odd which makes me think one of two things either

a he did this or b he went in there at some point to creep on her and look through her shit when he thought she wasn't home and then discovered her and took the fuck off yeah because he didn't want to be seen as this creepy guy who was just breaking into his tennis apartment and so i feel like that's either one of the two we'll find out which one it is here so they ask him about his actions on the weekend of the murder obviously where the fuck were you we need to know creepy guy with his hand in her underwear drawer what's going on way too much about how she was killed yeah who knows the exact manner of death of her um he said he had quote a real problem with dates and times it just you know how it is you know how it is right jimmy i go where were you last weekend you're like i don't know that

could be anywhere could have been in boston i could have been in, I don't know. I'm not sure. Cheyenne is nice this time of year. I'm not positive where I was. Could have been anywhere. So he said that he thought he'd been at 917 that weekend, the house across the street, doing roofing work. But then eventually he said, no, I don't think I was at 915 or 917.

I don't think I did any work on the places on December 3rd. So I don't think I was at 915 or 917. I don't think I did any work on the places on December 3rd. So I don't think I did. He also said that he had, quote, this sounds awful in context. He had, quote, not been near her back door in a long time, which sounds disgusting. So he says, though, he was concerned that because of his repair work, his fingerprints would definitely be on her closet doorknob and her dresser and on the bathroom sink and vanity. He's like, so, I mean, obvious. I want to talk to you guys because my fingerprints are going to be all over all the places that they would be if I strangled her with a nylon stocking. So, you know.

I would certainly be looking in that closet. I would certainly be in that drawer. And I would probably be in the vanity washing my hands of all the horrible shit I just did. I'd probably be washing off the blood from the blunt force trauma I caused to her head. What an asshole. I mean, he's making it pretty bad here. So the night of the actual murder that they think the murder happened from the 3rd to the 4th, that's their premise they're going with here. And from the third to the fourth, that's their their premise they're going with here.

They he tells police that he attended an office holiday party at a brain tree hotel with his fiance. And by the way, he's asking out tenants. Well, he's got a fiance. What the fuck? Just just note that because she just got there three months ago and he's already asked her out multiple times and he's got a fiance. So he's just a scumbag, obviously. And he said that was December 3rd from about 7 to 10 p.m. He returned to his house there in Lexington after the party.

He said he watched some TV, quote, made love to his fiance and went to sleep around midnight. And he said on Sunday, worked at home, kicked around the house, spent some time with the lady. And that's it, man. Don't know what you're talking about. No murder in there at all. Did you notice that? Didn't say anything about murder. No.

He does say that he will provide police with his photograph and fingerprints. And he does give the fingerprints. None of his fingerprints were found in the house, oddly enough. Weird. Yeah. She must have been a cleaner. That's all we can think. Other stuff concerning the landlord was that he told his fiancée, like right when they heard about the murder, that he believed that Mary Lou was, quote, strangled with a pair of stockings and probably raped. Boy, oh boy.

And that the back window had been broken, the way he put it, probably to make it look like a break-in. So he knew everything immediately that happened here, which is very strange. Now, the landlord's fiancee, she says that she fell asleep on December 3rd at the start of Saturday Night Live and didn't see him again till 10 o'clock the next morning. So we know SNL comes on at 1130. He said that they were they watched some TV banged

and went to sleep around midnight was his fucking whole thing. And she said, I don't know. I was asleep by 1130 and maybe I don't know whatever she didn't see him till 10 o'clock the next morning. That's a great night's sleep. by the way. It really is. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid.

We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing.

This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes you should tune in to our podcast morbid follow morbid on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining wondery plus and the wondery app or on apple podcasts it's all a light-hearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts.

I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called malevolent deity that is pretty great a dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing this mother lied like a liar like a

liar and if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal or you love to hop in the way back machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. But so, I mean, that's 11 hours almost. 11 hours of, that's it. She also said she considered herself a very heavy sleeper.

Not much woke her up yeah and she stated that her fiance here she would say he put him as an insomniac who often got up at night to work or to go out and drive around whoa okay i sleep like shit you know that i'm gonna i never get up to go drive around in the middle of the night. You know who does that? Psychos. Fucking serial killers do that. You don't go drive around in the middle of the night. People stalking. Yeah.

Especially in New Hampshire. You're going to hit a fucking deer. Nobody does that. You try not to drive around in rural areas at night. Yeah. I wouldn't drive around in the middle of the night there for fear of hitting a tree because there's so many. Yeah.

Stay on the road. You might still hit a tree and really go down this dark windy road the deer run out of all the time it seems like a good deal a lot of trees to hit no guardrails it's going to be excellent that's what so all of these things are adding up to some some shit here uh during the week following the when mary lou was killed he also told his fiance that he was, quote, upset that she told the police about his insomnia and night wanderings because they, quote, made him sound guilty. And he expressed, quote, concern that his fingerprints had been found in the house and that he had keys to the house. Sure. I'd be concerned, too.

I'd be real concerned at this point um he told another person a former colleague that the police quote probably found his fingerprints on the victim's dresser and that when he was in her room to do repair work he also picked up the telephone on the night table and slipped and knocked it over so his fingerprints would be on that as well he's saying so he's he is saying any things he's touching there he's touching everything don't let anyone in your house unless you're there because there's a landlord that's just doing repairs like he he's the fix-it guy too he doesn't even hire somebody to do it you know what i mean no i don't like that

at all come do it no you know it's not done right it It's patched up. This guy, he's a fucking ophthalmologist. He's not a goddamn. He's not a fucking plumber. One or two. That's what he does. Yeah. One, two, two, one, two. Okay, two. Yeah, there you go.

Three or four. Hurry up. I got to go fix somebody's plumbing. You got to change a P-valve. Now, that's funny. In the landlord's past, so they do some delving into this guy's past because he's pretty interesting there is evidence of several instances of his what they call sexual aggression toward women including evidence of a rape allegation against him made seven years beforehand oh no uh yeah uh and evidence that women's lingerie and sexually explicit photographs of former girlfriends were found in his home.

Now, I don't know what's up with the lingerie. And I don't know. Maybe he likes to wear it. And the sexually explicit photographs that could be very innocent, though. I mean, it could just be. He's a creep. He's a fucking creep. He likes to take creepy pictures and he likes to have, I don't know what he's fucking doing here.

I feel like he jerks off in a lingerie. That's what I feel like he's doing, and that's what he did at her house, too. I mean, I've had pictures of ex-girlfriends and such, but those go the fuck away when they go away. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want to keep that and remember her. She was an asshole. That's true.

Yeah, it's so funny, because back because back then now people with nude pictures of whatever like everybody's got pictures because you have phones and shit whereas back then it you had to get take that to get developed like if you had nude it was like oh my god they you let them take nude pictures of you that was like a huge very perverse thing because you let some guy at the photo mat see your pussy too as soon as like a nice camera came out people that had polaroids that's what i thought of them was like why do you have that why do you why do you like to private develop that you fucking weirdo why do you still have what are you doing what what is that jesus christ um so his his fiancee here also says that in 1987 after she had broken

up with him they've been together a long time she had broken up with him they've been together a long time she had broken up with him during that time he entered her house using his own key shortly before midnight when she came into when he when she came into her bedroom he pushed her on the bed tried to rip her blouse off ripping three of the buttons that broke free, forced her to have sex with him twice, and also oral sex once, and then also attempted anal intercourse with her. Yikes.

Then made her, quote, this is right from the court document, quote, wash his penis in the shower. In the last time that he raped somebody, that's what happened? That's his fiancee he did that to. Oh, my God. That he's still with. That's his fiancee.

They were together, and that was in 1987 that happened. And she's still with him seven years later. This is while she broke up with him. Somehow, they didn't stay broken up after that, which is, I don't even know. That's a very traumatic experience to take that person back. That's horrible. Jesus Christ. Oh, and then he also ordered her to take her clothes off before the sex and took sexually explicit photographs of her.

So he pushed her down, ripped her clothes off and ordered her to stay to pose for pictures and then raped her multiple times. That's a very aggressive human being. I would fucking say so. And then made her wash his penis in the shower which is you can't wash your own dick sir right that's an extra step it's like just so much as if that what wasn't humiliating enough now you're gonna make me disgusting what a piece of shit she asked him if he'd come to kill her. Have you come to kill me? Or is this all that you're going to do to me? And he said no.

But if that she, quote, did anything, he would cut the penis off her boyfriend because I guess she had gone started seeing somebody else because they were broken up. I'm not I'm not going to kill you, but I'll take my anything that you do out on your boyfriend. We'll cut his dick off. that you do out on your boyfriend who all cut his dick off um another woman that they found said that when she rejected his advances on a date he put her in quote some type of hold and she was unable to move until she finally struggled and he released her oh my god this guy sounds awful a third woman said that when he quote that he quote quote could not handle emotionally being contradicted, contradicted, was very bossy. So you couldn't contradict the guy at all. It's professor style. Don't you argue with me? That's some professor shit. I'm in control of this classroom. How dare you?

How dare you was very bossy, she said, and would not accept other people's barriers. Meaning one time he, quote, rubbed up against her breasts intentionally and inappropriately. She considered him a, quote, very angry and scary man who would get angry if she did not give in to his demands. That's terrifying. What a terrifying man. Bad man. That's terrifying. What a terrifying man. Bad man.

Fourth woman says that he often made his, what he would do is he'd make his dates work in the yard. What? He'd have dates and he'd make them do yard work. Get out there and pull my weeds? She said in a court document, treated them as slave labor was what she said. What time do we go to dinner? As soon as you're done mowing the lawn. Come on, Jesus Christ. Get the mulch going and then we can go out already what the fuck what that's not i never even considered that i've never considered i didn't know that was an option to go

out with this chick maybe when we're done with dinner she'll clean my house like i've never thought of that for a second we're on a date i'm not trying to make you do work times dinner i don't know when can you get here to do my laundry i mean i got a lot of i got a lot of housework that you need to do first so i'm not sure just here my house is a disaster it sucks here my toilet is just it's a mess it looks like there's like the kids are there's shit impact marks on it like they dropped it out of an airplane in there it's's terrible. I've got to clean my toilet. I give him credit. I would have never thought of that.

I don't know if credit's the right word. I guess he's got ingenuity, I suppose. I've got shit falling apart at my house, James. I need a roofer. Oh, shit. You've got problems over here. I don't know if he's making them do roofing or plumbing, but they're at least weeding and edging. At minimum, maybe I can get them to handle some clerical shit with my HOA and get some stuff approved.

Possibly. Yeah, that's possible. Oh, my God. This is unbelievable. Another woman who was a potential tenant. What? Why? She was a potential tenant why she was a potential tenant she said that several months this was a few months prior to mary lou sales murder she'd been negotiating to rent the premises that he eventually that she eventually rented so she would have been

in this apartment she said when she refused to work in the yard for a return. So this is corroborated. When she refused to work in the yard in return for a reduction in rent, he said, we'll do some yard work for me and I'll reduce your rent. Wow. She telephoned him to state that she wasn't going to do that. She said, quote, he became upset, threatened her and told her, quote, there would be consequences. Wow. Then he came to her home because he had her address from the rental application and continued to argue. It's over.

Weeds lady. She called it alarming and frightening. Yeah. And she said that at the same time simultaneously he would argue with her about that then he would call her up and ask her for dates at the same time wow she'd be like listen i'm not i don't want to talk about the yard work he's like i don't know this isn't about the yard work you want to go grab a bite like you know and then we'll argue about those are separate things you got to separate your worlds there's a business relationship we

have as a tenant and a potential yard work doing tenant and a landlord. And then there's also one where boyfriend, girlfriend. We're trying to work on separate levels here. I can't believe how many people in his past have something to say about him negative. Yeah. It's pretty goddamn crazy. Also, yeah, that's wild. So he also said he would do DNA tests.

He said, I'm perfectly willing to do polygraph testing and DNA testing. And then he withdraws his consent and refuses to do these tests either. Yeah. Then he disappears. Disappears. Takes off from town. He's not suspicious at all. Not at all. This guy's not suspicious at all. Not at all.

This guy seems not suspicious at all. Then there's a newspaper article on him after he disappears where he did an interview with someone here. It's an article by Beth Daly here. And they said that he blames media attention for forcing him out of his home because he's had to take off. He said he's still cooperating with police, even though he won't do a polygraph or DNA. He doesn't add that part. They've been camped in front of his house. He denies any involvement in the case.

He said the period since the tragic death of Mary Lou Sale has been an ordeal for everyone. The town of Lexington, the family of Mary Lou, myself and the people dear to me. I'm trying to continue with my normal routine and with people who depend on me. Unfortunately, because of media attention, my house can no longer be my home. I continue to be available to and cooperate with the Lexington Police Department and would

hope that any of my fellow citizens who may have seen or heard something would do the same. And that's what he said. Okay. So he's the main suspect at that point yeah there's five women it makes a lot of sense until until they pick up a drunk at mcdonald's they pick up a guy who's drunk at mcdonald's okay uh he's an alcohol no no he's shit you see a guy shit hammered at mcdonald's he had to do that well

ahead of time that's that's a big day for him well he's a he works at mcdonald's mind you he's the fry co he does he drops the fries and and flips the burgers here and he's hammered doing this shit face doing his thing here uh his name is craig conkey craig and Conkey, both Cs. Yeah. So he's born in 1967, so he's fucking in his 20s here, mid-20s. He works at McDonald's, as we talk about. He's lived in Lexington for about two years. He's an Army veteran. He was in the Army for about three years, and he works at the Bedford McDonald's as a cook here. McDonald's as a cook here.

Recently, he's been a patient at the Bedford Veterans Administration Hospital for a month for undisclosed reasons that they wouldn't tell because it's medical. He was also brought to the same hospital December 8th, two days after the murder after Bedford police found him

wandering his own wandering the McDonald's parking lot where he works, quote, drinking and disoriented so they picked him up they bring him in they fingerprint him right when they bring him in and there's also fingerprint cards from new hampshire that we'll talk about here he's a guy he grew up in dorchester new hampshire graduated from Mescoma Valley Regional High School in 1985. They say that he's a, people remember him as a, quote, polite young teenager. They said he loved to fish and would walk down the street with his rod in his bucket

all the time and see him off going fishing. Yeah, yeah, that's what it sounds like. Sounds like he doesn't own shoes. New Hampshire Andy Griffith. It's what it is here. He said, quote, this is a friend of his from back in the day, and he would have it full of fish whenever he returned. Wow. Good fisherman.

The guy said he asked Craig once how he was so successful at catching fish, and he says, quote, you just have to react the moment they touch the line. And he said that's easier said than done, though. So you got to be good at that. They described him as a smart, lean kid who would walk around in just a short sleeve shirt up until it's like 10 degrees outside. He's one of those guys. I don't know. My arms don't. I'm just not cold.

My chest. I don't get cold. And yeah. As long as my nipples are cobbled, I'm fine.'t know i'm okay with it they just put their hands in their pocket and i'm good my hands in my pocket it's fine you can see those guys yeah literally freezing in new hampshire in the fall so uh he also said that he describes him as quote always polite always a gentleman and always pleasant this man's wife said she taught fifth and sixth grade to him at elementary school and said, super nice kid, super polite, nice kid. Some of the neighbors who knew him, because he's from New Hampshire, said he was quiet and he kept to himself.

Others said occasionally they saw him act irrationally, yelling at no one, and making gestures at people that aren't even talking to him. Fun guy. Fun guy here, which sounds like he's probably drunk when he's doing that. That's what drunk people do. And then she said that. I was like, how do you know? Hey, fuck you, buddy. Somebody else walking by, you're you're like whoa that dude is

don't worry about it yeah uh owner of the deli mart near his home the lexington deli mart so i assume where he would stop in and get booze and shit like that said quote he was uh he was quiet nice i used to work at mcdonald's too and we'd talk about it he was quieter after the murder but still the same he just never talked about any murders so yeah he just wasn't like which is a sign that he didn't do anything if he's not going and gossiping about the murders that's a either that or he's smart if he did do it so um they said though he always carried a book with him that he was reading at the time even when he was going fishing he always had a book with him uh this guy said sometimes he'd stop and talk to him, and he says, what I mostly remember is that he loved to read. He was kind of quiet.

He was an ordinary guy. Old, conky here. He's also kind of quiet, ordinary guy, also arrested in 1990 for sexual assault. Oh? After grabbing a woman in a convenience store in Concord, New Hampshire, and trying to make off with her. He tried to kidnap somebody? Sort of. I guess he was groping and tried to pull her over for some sexual whatever the fuck,

and yeah, he gets arrested for sexual assault for that. Oh, Lord. And he's currently a fry cook at McDonald's. He has no criminal record in Massachusetts, although since he's been here the last two years, he is a suspect in an assault on a woman riding a bus who was groped in her thighs and her crotch. Now, somebody from the Bedford Police Department said they had picked him up two or three times from the McDonald's after he was drunk and disorderly in the parking lot. Several times. Several times.

He works there, so they don't want him. They don't press charges on him or anything. It's a safe place. They just take him home, but they know that he's a mess. He's just a guy they pick. He's the drunk that works at McDonald's. We pick him up stinking of French fries three times a week. He's that guy.

Who leaves work, goes and gets booze and goes back to work to sit there back to mcclock or he brings booze to mcdonald's uh gets off the other thing just hammered and don't want to walk home yet nope just get hammered in the parking lot so he can yell at people who come into the drive-thru so they canvassed the neighborhood police they interviewed conky because uh conky lives five doors down from mary lucille oh he lives in the neighborhood so they interview him december 10th and december 17th at the mcdonald's that he works at in bedford uh he's worked at the mcdonald's for two years by the way he's been there he also told police conky that he's never seen mary lucille around the neighborhood

he's never been in her home and he has no information regarding her death I just live near I work at McDonald's I get drunk in the parking lot this is why the sex offenders registry is so fantastic because these are two scumbags living on the same fucking street same stuff I mean what is it with this what is it with this street you're triangulated predators neighborhood that those two assholes live yeah if you live in between these two people it's like a fucking you know a victim sandwich that you're making with rape bread this is not good yeah you don't want a victim sandwich with rape bread would you like that's a bad bread yeah would you like that on rape or rye that's not right white or rape oh oh not good so on december 21st the police obtain a faxed copy of his fingerprint card from new

hampshire yeah where he has a criminal record like we said for a sexual assault and on december 29th 1994 police match a latent fingerprint found inside her bedroom mary lou sales bedroom to conky's left ring finger what the fuck man so that's not good he's been in her house they identify that and a palm print a partial palm print as well and this is in her bedroom on her bedroom door um so they have immediately refocused their shit they push the landlord aside for a minute even though he sounds like the guiltiest man ever to walk the face of the fucking earth it's almost like if someone else did this he was going there to do it and found it already done the landlord like he walked in he's like i'm gonna strangle her i'm gonna rape her i'm gonna do all this he walked in he's like oh man fuck somebody already got my somebody had my idea that's what it seems like he's such an asshole

so at this comic right in the best joke ever that he's ever written and then he goes to an open Somebody already got my, somebody had my idea. That's what it seems like. He's such an asshole. So at this comic, right? And the best joke ever that he's ever written. And then he goes to an open mic and somebody else is doing that. Somebody who sucks is doing it and bombing with it. And you're like, oh, not only did he steal it, he didn't even do it well. So people, they interview more than a hundred people in this case. So everybody here, Conky, like we said, was questioned a couple of times here. Then they asked him to come back in to do some fingerprinting.

And that's when they said he never showed up. He just never showed up for that. Neighbors around the whole deal said that they didn't even know he was a convicted sex offender. Like maybe they should have been made aware of that. The other guy, too. He said one of them said, quote, I think i have we have a right to know we should know if someone like this is living among us yes yeah that's why they do that so uh on the evening of december 29th 1994 state trooper peter senate and lieutenant stephen core went to speak with Conkey at his apartment on Massachusetts Avenue. He's at 855.

Okay. She was at 915. Jesus, right there. Right. It's five doors down, I think, here. Now, Conkey reiterates that he never met her and said, quote, I was never in that house. 100% never, I'm sure. Which means that you did it if you do that.

Whenever people do that, 100%, that means you're guilty. I did not. Never been in the house? Why is your hand in there then? Yeah. Otherwise, you just go, I never went in her house. You have the longest arms in history. Yeah, you are.

Wow, that's impressive, man. Someone cut off your left ring finger. Let me ask you that. How did you stand on the street and touch her door? Did they just put it in their pocket and save it for later and then use it so uh yeah he said that he he tells the cops that he left work early on saturday december 3rd because he had injured his hip the day before and then on the evening of the 3rd he went for a walk in the neighborhood but he didn't go near her house and go near mary lou's house even though it's five doors down.

They then asked him, Craig, what would you do if we told you that we had something of yours that was found inside Mary Lou's house? It's got you all over, just like it's a driver's license. What if we told you that? And he said, I don't know what you're talking about. Never been in the house. He said, you know, I'd like to speak to my landlord now which that's not a lawyer first of all i'd like to speak to my landlord now that's you got to stop questioning right now he sure he wasn't drunk and he said lawyer tried to say lawyer and said landlord a man's right to a landlord is sacred in the constitution i know my rights i can talk

to my landlord and i call him you can't talk to me no more. So weird. So he does talk to the landlord, but lets the police overhear him. So he didn't even go away. He said, quote, to the landlord, quote, they think I did it. I don't want to tell them that because I'll get I don't want to tell them that because I'll get involved. I was outside her home. I heard a scream.

I went in. I don't want to tell them that because I'll get involved. I was outside her home. I heard a scream. I went in. I don't want to tell them that because I'll get involved. Great. Rent still goes on the 14th. Yeah. Okay. Why are you telling me this, McDonald's person? He doesn't own a car.

A couple facts about him. So he gets around always walking. He also, by a bunch of people he knows, is an admitted burglar who, quote, liked the challenge of breaking into homes while they were occupied. Oh, my God. What a, why would you like that? That's a monster. So, anyway, they talked to him. He gave them his account of the night, retraced for themaced for them the route he'd walked that night.

Because remember he said he took a walk. They then asked him to go to the station. Let's put this in writing at the station. Just so we have a statement to put in with the rest of them. And he said, I'm not coming there and writing shit. Then you can hold that against me in a court of law. Yeah. My landlord told me.

Yeah. So he said, I'm not doing that. My landlord, he tells me everything. And he said, we can beat this case. I trust him. I don't know what it is. I just trust him. He's at this point. They say, look, we have evidence that you were in the goddamn house. You need to make a statement. And then he said, all right, this is what happened. Tell you what. I was in the house. Yeah, I was there. I was there the night of December 3rd and 4th, as a matter of fact. But when I came in there, she's already dead. Okay. That's what he said.

Already dead. That's what his story. Two people go up. Already dead when I got there. So he said that he touched the body at the neck, which according to him was bloody. And this was to feel for a pulse there. He's like, I felt for a pulse. He said then he picked up the phone to contact the cops.

He's like, oh, my God, I better call the police. But then he changed his mind. So what am I talking about? I can't call the cop. I broke in here. I can't call the cops. He said then he washed the blood off his hands in her bathroom sink he then this is how he explains how he got into the house and why he was there because it was totally innocent reason he was there by the way he didn't

break in to kill her or rape her or steal shit even he didn't even try to burgle it nothing just wanted to see the couch just checking to see what well he wanted to see how she had her living room set up because his he was like i want to put put my TV over here, but I don't. Yeah, the light comes through. Okay. And this. Okay, never mind. I like the way she's got this.

He said he went out walking between 9 p.m. and midnight. Very big window. At one point, he says he paused to smoke a cigarette in a wooded area near her house. Why would you stop your walk to smoke a cigarette in a wooded area near her house why would you stop your walk to smoke a cigarette in a wooded area why wouldn't you just keep smoking on your walk or stop and stand around why would you dip into the woods to smoke a cigarette unless you're 12 are you hiding from your mom yes i mean unless you're 13 i don't understand this logic here is there somebody that doesn't want you smoking somewhere yeah he's like 27 years

old at this point i feel like he's can smoke what he wants so he said that he's smoking in a wooded area near the house it's at that moment that he heard a woman scream oh he heard a scream and he goes oh my god i better go over there and see what that's about yeah which is always what you do when you're on the street get over there superman he's i gotta see what this is he said he entered the home by putting his hand inside a broken pane of glass in the rear doors it was already open so i just went in and opened it the glass was broken already um he said that he uh you know i went in and that's what i saw i found her in there i was like oh my god i checked her neck pulse oh shit i better call the cops oh no wash my hands leave pretend it never happened then you guys talk to me not a good story so they have two people with equally implausible stories yeah which story is more implausible i don't even

know i honestly don't know who both have seen the body before we did both of them that's what i mean one has his hand has fucking he said himself that he went in her lingerie drawer and knew that she was strangled with a nylon this guy says i heard a scream and walked in like neither of these stories are good stories one of them put his hand on on and claimed the murder weapon and the other one touched the body like this is not good by their own accounts by the way this isn't even what they're trying to pin on them this is what they're this is their i'm innocent stories this is crazy i touched a dead body is one guy's story wow so then they find out that from mcdonald's

that he called his workplace that night the night of the third at 10 41 p.m. He called McDonald's up to say he wasn't going to be in the following morning. Yeah. So I'm not going to be in. So they said that because they don't know how to do how to deal with this because they're like, it seems to be part sexual motive, maybe some robbery, or maybe that was to make it look like a robbery because it's not everything was stolen. They're very confused here. Very confused. They said that it was, like we said, seven blows to the head and all of that shit.

By the way, too, he admitted to, Conky has a girlfriend who we'll talk about. He told her that when he went into the house, he went in with the large flashlight as well, by the way. That was one of the things he said. Because he had it with him on his walk. You know, it's dark out there when you're smoking in the woods. So he said while he was smoking in the woods, the scream he heard lasted several seconds.

And he thought, because they said, well, what did you hear? When did you go in? And he said, well, I thought it was coming from that house. I figured it was domestic violence, so I figured I better go up and see what was going on yeah i better fix this better not call the cops or anything i better i better go like just open the back door and make sure everybody's calmed down now everybody calm all right i don't want to fuck i don't want to have to come back here all the cops i it was possible dv and that's the least amount of times that people get murdered in those situations. So I figured I'd just go over there and stop the little argument.

Why bring the cops into this? The least opportunity for anybody to get hurt is in those situations. So none of the other neighbors, even the ones who lived right next door to her, heard the sound of glass breaking or a scream around that time by the way early um the other one as we know the two neighbors nearby uh they said they were awake awoken by glass breaking at 11 30 but not that early and and midnight um between 11 30 and midnight and they they said they usually kept their windows open slightly and the sound of breaking glass they said they uh another neighbor said they usually kept their windows open slightly and the sound of breaking glass, they said, another neighbor said they heard the sound of breaking glass

between 1 and 2 a.m. So those are anywhere between 11.30 and 2. 2 a.m. That could happen. Yeah, that's a long time. So he said anyway, back to Conky, he entered the home due to the scream, concerned obviously.

He's a concerned citizen. Great citizen. Yeah, he said that he was concerned but he didn't put a cigarette out and rush right over there he said he finished a cigarette first and then was like well i better go see what's happening i mean i had to see they're like what are they two bucks a pack back then they're 225 a pack right now man yeah well that's about what he's making an hour at this point so he's can't be doing that he said that uh um at no point did he see anyone leaving the front or back doors of the home um and he also saw no one leave the home after the scream and then once inside the house he said he didn't see anyone else there

except for mary lou um but he told his girlfriend in a separate thing that he, quote, saw a shadow in the house. Saw a shadow go by. In the house. Oh, my God. I got in there, and they must have ran out. Like, oh, he was still in the, the killer's still in the house. Oh, no. Oh, boy.

Once he found the body, he said he didn't contact the police because, quote, he didn't want to get involved. He'll rush up to the house of a domestic current ongoing domestic violence situation and break in literally to to get involved but he doesn't want to call the cops when there's been a murder are you out of your come on man and possibly the murderer just ran right by you and you don't yeah he you don't could still be in the neighborhood you're super involved already he could attack you on your walk home right you. You have to walk home. He's willing to murder. He already knows that.

Yeah. He said, that's why I took a minute to get into the house originally. I didn't want to get involved. He said, just check to do a pulse. He said there was very little blood on the neck there. He said he had blood all over his hands from touching her neck. But in the crime scene photos, there's not a lot of blood on the neck there. He said that it was he had blood all over his hands from touching her neck. But in the crime scene photos, there's not a lot of neck blood on her neck. There's only a little bit.

He told police that he did not see anything unusual about her neck. Yet the evidence says that it was tightly bound with pantyhose and you would have noticed that he he also he said that the he washed his hands in the sink. The bathroom faucet and sink tested positive for blood, but no blood was found on the telephone. So he never like, I grabbed the phone like maybe I should call. Never mind. But he did wash his hands. I am riveted.

His supervisor at McDonald's said that he left work about 11 a.m. on December 3rd, about one and a half hours prior to the end of his shift. Did he just leave early? Left early, then called the restaurant that night at 1041 saying he had fallen and hurt himself and he would not be coming into work the following day. And he didn't come into work on the 4th. So Barbara Tucker, who's a co-worker of him, and also been his girlfriend here for about three years

yeah in addition to that she said that on the morning of december 13th she was a few days 10 days after the murder she saw conky take a closed bowling ball bag from his closet she asked him repeatedly what was in the bag and all he would reply was nothing so he's like the kid in parenthood. It's nothing, and he just runs out the door. Don't worry about it. When she dropped him off for work one morning, he was holding the bag, and then she never saw it again. So he had a bag.

Get rid of something. So once they match up his fingerprints to a place, they think they got their guy with Conky, so they go ahead and arrest him here. Okay. I'm not so sure, but go on. They go ahead and arrest Conky. You'll be more sure in a minute. Don't worry. There's a huge, massive twist coming in this twice up.

Two more big ones here. So they said they walked with – this is how they decided to arrest him. They walked with him from his home to the house. They said, well, show us exactly what you did that night. Show us the route you took. Where'd you smoke your cigarette? You heard this. You saw that.

You went there. So this cop says, we walked along with him. Let him explain what he had to say. When he was done, we arrested him. None of them worked. That's ridiculous. You're under arrest. He said he has his version and we have ours. We arrested him. That's ridiculous. You're under arrest.

He said he has his version and we have ours. And ours is that he's under arrest and he's going to be prosecuted for first degree murder. That's a great that's a great fucking line. He also says it was a difficult and unusual investigation. We didn't get to the body until two days after the fact. So that obviously didn't help. Now, while he's in jail here,

he Lexington detectives who charged him with the murder. They go to Plymouth, New Hampshire to talk about him a little bit. And they talk with detectives up there because there's a lot of similarities in the in the Teresa Reed and Mary Lou sale cases. Both women were found next to their beds in their apartments where they lived alone. Only difference is the stabbing and the strangulation. But there's also three years spread there. Um, so they said that he lived about six miles from the college campus when she was killed Teresa Reed in 1991. And, uh, that's the fingerprints from New Hampshire or how they connected him to the murder in, uh, the murder in Lexington. But they say there's no, not enough evidence to do this. It's all just circumstantial.

The women were found next to the bed basically is the only real coincidence they can find. So the trial comes along pleads not guilty to killing mary lou he's also pleads not guilty to several other charges relating to different burglaries in the neighborhood that they found that he's responsible for so he's been breaking into neighbors houses all the time is the other thing so you know what i mean he's a real good suspect here he's ordered held without bail. They get a woman to testify named Justine Moon. She testifies that he would stare at her

as she waited at the bus stop in front of his house. Yuck. Yeah. Now, the defense contends that this testimony served no purpose other to portray him as, quote, menacing and creepy. Well, yeah, if that's how you make women feel, then you might, you know, there might be for a reason. The state presents evidence that both Sale and Conkey frequented a cluster of stores near their residences.

So he might have seen her there, if nowhere else. They also offer Moon's testimony and they say that it contradicts his assertion to the police that he never noticed the victim when she visited the stores it shows that he was familiar with him uh with people around and stared at women and shit so if there was a woman he was probably staring at her is what they get to so uh the during this whole thing they're they're laying out the case they found his prints in her bedroom. The prints match him. He's arrested in 1990 for a sexual assault.

They say he broke into her home, beat her with a blunt weapon, wrapped a nylon stocking around her neck. The prosecutor said, quote, he pulled it tighter and tighter. I will prove to you, members of the jury, that there was a struggle and Mary Lou fought as energetically as she could. And she was left on the floor lying in a pool of blood yikes so um yeah uh now Conkey's lawyer he says yeah he was in her house that's because he's a nice guy yeah only a nice guy would hear screaming and break into someone's house to help that's going up the extra mile he all he said there's also eight other fingerprints and two palm prints in the house that the police couldn't match to anybody what about them what about those they said hairs found on sale also uh he said the fbi

reported there's no match there so what's up with that maybe where's that going so uh they said look he's a burglar literally he's a burglar not murderer. That's what the guy said to the jury here. Bad defense. It's something. They said that his girlfriend testifies that he told her that he liked to break into people's houses when they were home because otherwise it was not a challenge. Yeah. He said that she also said throughout the fall and summer of 94. So the last like six months before the murder, he had given her several items, including jewelry, CDs, binoculars and a laptop computer, which's what he does. I mean, he's a trial counsel also requested that the court not given instruction to the jury to the effect that her testimony concerning his break-ins could only be considered in connection with conky state of mind, not as an indicative of a propensity to commit to bad acts. Commit to bad acts. So they're saying you can only use this shit for his state of mind of what he might have been thinking about going into somewhere. But you can't say he's a terrible guy because he's a burglar. That means he's a murderer. There is something for people that do do that, though, that it's stealing your safety and your and your peace of mind.

Yeah, they get off on that. Right. It's a violation that's so deep. Those people are certainly capable of murder because they're doing something that is so depraved in the first place just for and it's selfish well you get found and then what do you do and then you're gonna get caught unless you make this person not see you right that's what it is so uh the defense called eight witnesses in a while in an effort to persuade the jury here. His whole defense is Dr. Lang did it. Okay.

Not me. The landlord did it. His whole defense is the landlord did it. They said opportunity, motive, means to kill her. They called up his former fiance to the stand, Mary McCleary. She testifies that on the evening of the third she returned home from a holiday party 10 to 10 30 they watched the beginning of saturday night live at 11 30 she fell asleep didn't see him again till the next morning so that gives him opportunity she told

him about the insomnia the fact that she's a heavy sleeper that he liked to do like middle of the night drive-arounds right that sort of thing um she's also testified that the the landlord was upset with her for telling the police that he likes to go out at night and made him making him sound guilty the jesus christ that sounds bad the defense also calls uh susan oak who's the former president of his company, the landlord that is, Dr. Lang, Oak testified that she thought Dr. Lang had told her in December 94 that he was concerned the police would find fingerprints on the phone in the sales room because while he was doing repairs, he'd fallen and knocked the phone over, then picked it back up again. Um, so the defense also presents testimony from some of sales neighbors who testified they saw lights on and sales house between Sunday, December 4th and Tuesday, December 6th, even though the house was dark when the police discovered the body. Oh, that's not good at all. And I'll believe that because these people are monitoring what time her lights go off. So they know whether they're on or off at all.

Um, which that's why I think the the my theory is conky did this landlord came in to be creepy right and found her and was like oh fuck and took off turns the lights off and gets the fuck out that's my theory on the whole thing yep turns the lights back off and runs the fuck out of there oh my god so um conky uses this testimony here uh to say that the killer must have had access to her house in the days after she was killed. Maybe that's what happened. So he also calls Thomas Connelly, a carpenter who was doing work located at the house located at 1009 Massachusetts Avenue on the morning of December 3rd. This Connelly testifies that he was pulling into the driveway of the house. third this connelly testifies that he was pulling into the driveway of the house he noticed a man with the straggly reddish brown hair walking quickly down the street when the man saw connelly

turning into the driveway he covered his head with a beige a beige kerchief and walked away that's a suspicious thing to do weird thing to do like he's to rob a bank in the fucking 1880s. What's going on? This Connolly later told the police that he recognized the man as Dr. Lang after he saw Dr. Lang being interviewed on television subsequent to the death. He goes, that's the guy I saw on the street. Oh, my God. The red hair.

This is kind of a giveaway. Yeah. Distinctive looking. You can't get away from this. No, that's why he's a comedian. So instead of a murderer, he'd be a terrible murderer. He's a terrible comedian, too, but a murderer even worse. Very recognizable.

Very recognizable. So Dr. Lang, before this trial for Conkey, had moved to Oregon. He took off, quit his job, did everything, moved to Oregon, and asserted his Fifth Amendment right not to testify at trial during a pretrial telephone conference. As long as I'm not being charged, I have nothing to talk about. And I moved literally the furthest from this I can get to. Get the fuck away from here.

In closing arguments, Conkey's trial counsel sums up the defendant's theory as this. Conkey was in the habit of breaking into houses and taking things from houses. He enjoyed going into houses where people were were where he felt people would be because he thought that was more exciting and more of a challenge he said quote you might not like it but that's who he is well yeah we not we know what we can do with that though as being the jury we might not like it we can also put him in jail he said in the days following this event, police did an investigation. He said Conkey lied to the police officers. But now you know the truth because he eventually had to say, yeah, I was there. And as he says, he has thoughts. Should I call the police and picks up the phone? He's a burglar. What's he going to say? I'm a burglar in the middle of a burglary and I just found a dead body. I'm a burglar in the middle of a burglary and I just found a dead body. Okay. So he doesn't make the call.

You don't say anything. You can say there's a dead body here and fucking hang up and leave. That's what you can do. And then they can come and find her. So he doesn't make the call. And because the various activities here, he said all these law enforcement personnel coming in, all of this shit. He said, but we don't have the benefit of having a nice, clean phone to see his print on it. He said, but I think of this. But think of this.

Mrs. McLary is asleep. Mr. Lang has keys to the apartment. He lives four or five or six doors down. It's his habit to be up and about in the middle of the night. He sees the lights on in Mary Lou Sayle's home. He's physically attracted to her, sexually attracted to her. So Ronald Lang shows up, ladies and gentlemen,

maybe he comes in with a key and he says, and sales like, Oh, what am I going to do? I can't scream at him. He's my landlord, but I want to be firm. What are you doing here?

And he makes some story up about the list and all the work he has to do. Maybe he wants to take a look. Maybe I couldn't sleep tonight, so I can just look at this or that or the other thing. And then he goes upstairs. And then he kills, he does the whole killing there. That's his, that's the theory. What do you think?

Find out what the jury buys. Jury comes back here, obviously for Conky's verdict here. They find him guilty of murder. Yeah, old Conky there and he sent goes to sentencing sentencing you sir may fuck off life in prison oh boy they go hard he's going hard there that's a vicious murder that's hard if he did it he's going away you know here's the thing james if you are just a burglar and you're not capable of murder if you find a body do you panic

and call the fucking police because I think I do I think I go and I find a phone that's not in that house and I call the police yes I think it's 1994 I run down to the nearest pay phone and I call the cops run on down to Cumbie Farms and make a call I go there's a goddamn body in this house and that's it's all you have to say they'll show up to. You don't have to give them any more details than that. They'll be over. If they hear about a body, I think they have to look. Dead body address. Click.

That's it. They need to know. I might stick around and be like, all I do is rob houses, man. I swear to God. I found this and I'm fucking petrified.

I need to tell you guys this. I think I would. Yeah. I think so too, honestly. It'd be hard not to. Is that white privilege of me just assuming that they wouldn't think that I murdered somebody? I think so, too. Honestly, it'd be hard. Is that white privilege of me just assuming that they wouldn't think that I murdered somebody? I don't know what that is, but I it probably is. I think it's more. I think it's more fucking guilt of you wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

Probably. Yeah. I just couldn't. It doesn't really matter. I could walk away without without telling him that there's a body here. I would assume I'd be arrested for at least burglary, but I would hope that there's other evidence that doesn't point to me but if i was the guy in the house it doesn't look good but also i've touched things and i've seen enough things and i know that look i got i've touched all kinds of shit in here before i saw that body i better call i better call somebody

now 1999 comes around and he has an appeal and the grounds are that uh his refusal to they in court they brought up that he refused to be fingerprinted and all that shit right away that's why they had to send away to new hampshire so the his theory is they should not have they his refusal to give fingerprints should not have been used against him in court and uh the court found that his lawyer should have been allowed to present more evidence at the trial that somebody else may have killed sale because a lot of that evidence all that shit i told you about the landlord not all that shit was allowed into the court at all so that that was just background we know but it was picking shoes some of that shit for court they wouldn't allow a lot into court. So based on that, they reverse his conviction,

and he's got to get retried. So 2001, they try him again for Mary Lou, and he's convicted again. That's not good. 2004, on another appeal here, this one he relies on the fact that one of the hairs, the one that was forcibly removed uh it will just it supports his position that dna testing linked the hair to dr lang

or would have done that and that would have likely influenced the jury's decision if we could have got a dna test that's a gray hair this guy's 26 27 it's probably not his that's possible absolutely possible um he contends that is this single hair apparently forcibly removed or pulled and this seems to have occurred during a struggle he uh takes the testimony of uh the special agent that has all the information that doesn't know how or when it got ripped out remember he doesn't know how much pressure it would take so they said that the notwithstanding Conkey's assertion the hair was

forcibly removed during a struggle. There's no indication as to how or when the hair was in fact removed. Therefore, even if DNA testing revealed the source of the forcibly removed hair was Dr. Lang, the fact that this fact does little to weaken the case against Conkey. We know

Dr. Lang was in the house, so he could have dropped a hair on the floor and she rolled over who the fuck knows he could have scratched his head and knocked the hair out and i mean whatever so they said they acknowledged that dr lang had been present in her bedroom just days before the death and um yeah so they don't know how this could have happened here so the commonwealth's case against conky although based mostly on entirely circumstantial evidence was strong nonetheless they said that conky admitted to being in the bedroom the night of her death if he just didn't say all of that yeah i mean the fingerprint would have been hard to talk your way out of but you just say i'm not talking i want a fucking lawyer i don't know

how they really he put himself there right it's It's difficult. So they said that they say that the Commonwealth's case hinged on the asserted implausibility of Conkey's story. They said in the closing argument, the prosecutor, all he did was focus on the inconsistencies of the story, particularly his initial insistence that he'd never been inside the big problem. Yeah. It's your lies is what they're putting up. You are allowed to say inconsistent story. People that kill people generally lie about it. Absolutely. So this is reversed again.

Wow. So now it's twice and twice. He's two and two in trials here. Not going great. So 2009 comes around. He finally pleads guilty to it, to Mary Lou. He pleads guilty and he's sentenced to you, sir. Fuck off.

Life in prison again. So they said this is a the prosecutor by pleading guilty. The defendant has definitively admitted his guilt for the brutal murder of Mary Lou Sale. The victim's family have been forced to live through the two trials and nearly 15 years of uncertainty. This is 2009. Yeah. Now, with this conviction and sentencing, the defendant is held accountable and the legal process has come to a final close. uh according uh conky gets credit for the nearly 15 years he spent awaiting this trial because he's been in jail and uh serving his sentences and blah blah blah so that goes toward his parole

which uh good luck now while he's in there 2012 comes around he makes a phone call to the police to the state police from jail and he says listen i gotta tell you something the reason i'm telling is and this is real the apocalypse is coming and i gotta get some things off my chest this is november 2012 so remember 2012 when everyone the dumb mayan shit and all that that's what he's talking about the mayan calendar spooked him it spooked him so he called to say i have to tell you about something uh something you don't know nothing about okay back on august 23rd 1992 oh boy date we haven't even talked about yet there's a young lady named kathleen dempsey she's a graphic designer 31 years old uh really good graphic designer. She does graphic and textile designs. And she was about to go back to college because she wanted to teach art to children. She wanted said, well, this is what happened on August 23rd, 1992.

I was suspended from my job at McDonald's, probably for being drunk in the parking lot, I guess. He said, I went over and I broke into her apartment, broke into Kathleen Dempsey's. It's a basement apartment in a yellow bungalow. And I broke in there on Ridge Road in Lexington. He said, I wanted money. I was suspendedpsey's. It's a basement apartment in a yellow bungalow. I broke in there on Ridge Road in Lexington. He said, I wanted money. I was suspended from McDonald's. I needed money for food and rent. So I went in there and he said, when he

gets in there, she was asleep. Kathleen Dempsey. Room was pitch black and she was awoken by him and she screamed, quote, please don't hurt me. Just go. I can't see you. So it's dark. I screamed, quote, please don't hurt me. Just go. I can't see you.

So it's dark. I don't see you. Don't hurt me. Just leave, which is reasonable. But he said instead he went over to her, grabbed her by the back of the head, pressed her face into the mattress and put a pillow over the back of her head so her screams couldn't be heard and then stabbed her 17 times jesus with his pocket knife 17 times in the neck and torso oh my god he started with the neck slashed her diaphragm on one of the stabs and then um from there said that he quote concentrated on her kidneys because he knew they were vital organs.

So he was hacking her in the general kidney area. That was 17 times. Absolutely savaged this fucking poor woman. So he said, and the police found her face down on the bedroom floor, naked from the waist up. She was still clutching the handset of the telephone because she got a 911 call off. She survived till after he left and got a 911 call off. This is the saddest fucking thing I've ever heard. Most anger causing anyway.

This 911 call would cause sweeping changes in the state's emergency response system, which is a bad sign. He took off from the house about 5.30 a.m. She had enough left in her to pick up the phone. Dial 911. She called the Lexington Fire Department. There's a civilian operator that puts you through to the 911. It's a small town.

So she begins the call by saying, quote, I've been attacked. She tries to. She gets her address out out but it's a little garbled her diaphragm slash exactly but she said i've been attacked her voice becomes more garbled and the call ends with her moaning now the person who answered it's a part-time dispatcher who answered the phone and said he could not understand her address and just disregarded the call. Asshole. So a dispatcher on the next shift at 10 o'clock in the morning, so fucking four and a half hours later,

he reviewed the call logs and listened to the call and he deciphered the fucking address because you could hear it if you listen closely. So he sends the police over there at 10 57 a.m the dispatcher said he thought it was a hoax so that's why he just hung up and said fuck it so it's just kids fucking around 5 30 in the morning 5 30 in the morning and they found her dead near the foot of her bed clutching the telephone five stab wounds to her abdomen liver

her kidneys diaphragm slashed everything calls the operator operator's name was victoria sabaluski uh to report that she'd been stabbed sabaluski worked in the brockton office and patched the through call patched the call through to this robishaw guy and um she could be heard saying go ahead go ahead ma'am and dempsey's voice loses loses clarity and robishaw can be heard frantically repeating ma'am ma'am ma'am and then the moans stop so uh robishaw was eventually fired from there because of this and is was at this point a firefighter in 2010 or 2012 and uh he said that he was unable to understand the address and never thought of calling the operator who had not identified herself as such. So they didn't know it was the operator.

So they said that they said that Dempsey's telephone number displayed on a screen before her and that she this guy should have known. So Dempsey's family sues the town of Lexington and gets $100,000 settlement, which is the cap on what they can pay out for a town. In response, the cities and towns around the state instituted enhanced 911, in which emergency dispatchers are automatically notified of each caller's address, which should be known. Now, they also announced a $20,000 reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the person. This was after the murder because this was cold for 15, 16 years, which is horrible. So they said, we feel there's a person out there somewhere with information that could help. We've been pretty devastated this past six months. There's not much we can do to help in the investigation except offer the reward which is true now how did he come forward for this conky how the fuck what's up with this shit um well the district attorney said that uh the indictment was both

his admissions and they said they have now advanced dna tools to examine bodily fluids and shit like that and they were able to corroborate his story by matching his dna to the scene so they said cases like this should give people hope that we continue to never forget the victims of homicide he said he couldn't talk about the circumstances leading to the confession but his lawyer said this is conkey's lawyer said in an interview that conkey provided the crucial information they needed to connect him to the killings without his statements he said that the killing would be an unsolved murder forever and it would have been if he didn't come forward they wouldn't have found him they said for whatever reason he came forward to solve this he went ahead and did it he didn't have to but he did

thank you mayans for being lazy with your calendar. Thank you for your shitty calendar that made this guy think that he was going. He said he didn't want to go to hell. That was his whole thing. You're still going, sir. If there is one, you're certainly going. You're going. So they think it took place during an attempted burglary, obviously.

Dempsey's mother, Kathleen's mother here, Evelyn Tobin, said this was a horrific, unspeakable act of violence against a 31 year old woman who was beloved and had her whole life ahead of her. My daughter believed in justice very strongly and she would be very happy for her family today. He also said she also said that her family lost hope for a while that anyone would ever come to justice. And she said she thanks the investigators because she believed they never gave up on the case so that's good um she remembered her as a she said that kathleen quote didn't have a malicious bone in her body uh the one regret i have is that she didn't get to see my kids that's what her brother said about her so um she's so sweet in fact that she even told a burglar you get out i won't even call i'll just go back to sleep i don't even i don't i

didn't see you just go yeah that's what i mean she's just it's fucking sad man um so um oh man they were able to obviously garner his uh his whole admission and all this sort of shit they also you know what he wanted in exchange for this by the way a pack of cigarettes he wants an exchange it's close um in in exchange for pleading guilty and given the whole story he said that he wants to be transferred to maine's prison system uh in exchange for helping them ma Maine or New Hampshire, because he's in Massachusetts right now, and it's away from his family. And he also said, in addition to that,

in addition to that, he wants to go to Maine, and he wants to be given a PlayStation also. Because in the Maine system, some trustee inmates are allowed to have playstations so he's like literally send me to maine vice city's out or at this point san andreas had just come out uh i fuck 2009 no this is this is fucking not even san andreas this is the next one

this is the next one man wait this is fucking after that yeah yeah san andreas was like 2005 and then in 2009 another one came out so he's he really wants the good one he's hurt yeah he's certainly he's hurt he's like have you seen red dead it looks awesome you're allowed to murder for free red dead redemptions is great i gotta play this game i want to be a cowboy everybody so uh the district attorney's office said that they couldn't comment on whether they were going to do that or not um now kathleen was described by her friend as quote her desk was a melange of work papers tarot cards dried flowers and what she called her science experiments which were half empty teacups with mold and various stages of

growth she's a party so she's just a fun yeah it seems like she's just you know doing her thing which were half-empty teacups with mold in various stages of growth. She's a party. So she's just a party. Yeah, it seems like she's just, you know, doing her thing. She's an artist. Yeah. She's the opposite of accountant Mary Lucelle. It's complete opposite.

She throws a couple of different types of cheeses in a little Dixie cup to watch them mold up. Yep. See what happens. So they said that Dempseysey when deadlines for her stuff were you know came up for her work dempsey would quote shrug them off tap dance and sing show tunes she's an artist yeah she's a cool artist sometimes she would disappear and return laden with chocolate which she would make me eat because she said it would give me a false sense of euphoria hell yeah vermont's right there she's fun man she sounds like a cool lady so that's a shame man um also now he said that's not the only murder that i want to tell you about that i've done um yeah um he

said you might want to get a hold of new hampshire yeah uh plymouth new hampshire exactly as a matter of fact because uh they do and on july 12th officers with the new hampshire cold case unit go to visit conky in prison in massachusetts and uh they talked to him and they said he he was a suspect in theresa reed's murder they said they had talked to him about it, but there was simply no evidence at the time. So he comes on the radar this way. He didn't confess. When they come up to see him or come down to see him, he doesn't confess either. He said, I want to talk to them.

They came, and then he doesn't confess. He does say he offers hints that he knows more about the case than he let on. That's all he would say. I'm just saying I know more than I said I did before. They're like, well, what do you know? Did you fucking kill her or not? Tell us if you did. And he's like, I'm not going to say that.

I'm going to say I know something. So they come back to see him another time. And Conky asked, do you have enough evidence to convict me of Teresa Reed's murder? And he's already in prison. So they said, no, we don't, to be honest with you. We don't have enough evidence. And he said, all right, I'll tell you what happened. Oh, boy.

He said, I'll tell you everything that happened. If you can't convict me on it, I wanted to just get convicted and get it over with. But if you can't do it, here's how it happened. Is this everybody? But is this a ploy just to get to New Hampshire? No, no, that was that was the last murder. It was a ploy to get to maine this might be a ploy to get to new hampshire but we'll find out okay uh well you you tell me you be the cop and tell me if his story fucking spill it motherfucker holds water so he told the investigators he went to reed's apartment in plymouth one night in in September of 1991 with the intent of burglarizing it.

He said he never knew Reed, never met her, never saw her, didn't know her from Adam. She lived six miles away. She literally the apartment was chosen at random. That's all it was. He at one point even said that he went to another place, but there was a police car that drove by that scared him away from that place. It was a bigger house, so he chose a more modest location that he didn't think the cops would be driving around. So that's what he did. He said once he gets inside, he looks around, and he found Teresa Reed on her bed.

And once he popped into the room, he said she instantly began to scream. She didn't talk to him. She didn't tell him to get out. She just started screaming. He said, quote, in order to keep her quiet, he lunged across her. And then he said that he, quote, stabbed her as much as I could. Jesus Christ. Nine stab wounds here.

During the assault, she fell into the space between the bed and the wall that had not been released anywhere publicly so that's how uh yeah that's the capper that they they know that's that's there hadn't been disclosed to the public as well as his knowledge of the murder weapon he said it was a knife with a six inch blade and a tightly leather strap around the handle and it was found inside Reed's apartment. So he knew what the exact, he knew the leather around the handle of the murder weapon found in the apartment. So unless he's one of

the homicide investigators with access to crime scene photos or the murderer is the only people that would know that shit. Literally, not even the family got that information. So it's out there. So that gave credence to it. Conky told them that he spent maybe two minutes total in the apartment.

He said it was that quick. He walked in, looked around, got to the bedroom because that's where jewelry is, gets to the bedroom. She screamed. He jumped on her. Stab, stab, stab stab stab and walked out that was it he didn't even that's how fucking fast it was so fast um now all these people in new hampshire were walking around terrified thinking that this is you know we got ted bundy going on and this is just a shitty burglar who a guy that just keeps getting suspended from

mcdonald's yeah literally literally. That's what it is. So he said that he left in a state of shock because of what happened. He just said it all happened so fast. So he said he left in a state of shock and wandered out into the woods and slept there that night.

Just slept in the woods because he was in such shock. Who sleeps in the woods when they're not prepared to sleep in the woods? Creeps. I guess people who murder when they're not, when they're not planning on murdering the same person. So he then walked to his parents' house in Dorchester where he grew up the next day,

he said. And, um, they knew from previous experience with him that when he gives a confession, it's, he's usually telling the truth. Now this has been, now he's,

he's given to now because he, he gave it up with Mary Lou Sale when he pleaded guilty as well. He's given two, and they're concise, they're factual, and they're done. That's all he does. Mad accurate. I did this, I did that. You'll find the knife there. It's got a leather thing wrapped around it. Stabbed her a bunch of times, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah. Oh, boy. So is there more? There's got a leather thing wrapped around it. Stabbed her a bunch of times. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Oh, boy. So is there more? There's got to be. He also said that he's done it again. He said he did it also. He said he committed a murder in Manchester in 1989 where he busted into a flower shop and strangled the woman behind the counter before robbing her and fleeing

so there's that as well and they're going to look into that and figure out if they can charge him with that also of this flower shop murder by the way four is absolutely a serial killer I don't give a fuck that's too many I know his motive is burglary so that could be I don't know if that's that doesn't put

him in technically into the whole thing. But for murders, that's every time someone catches you, you kill them. That's a fucking, at some point, it's not about the burglar, burglary. The burglary is an excuse to maybe kill somebody. It's at that point. Well, the burglary is, is the main motive. But if I'm caught, I'm I'll murder.

I'll fucking silence anybody. That's, that's still a serial killer for sure. To do it that many times and in that similar fashion. You notice it's not a guy ever. You notice it's a single woman. That's why I don't believe it. I don't believe him that he just went in to burglarize these places. So the four places he's gone to burglarize where he got caught just happened to be all places where single women lived and were falling asleep at night.

I don't buy that shit. He had to know. He had to know. Not once he busted into some fucking, you know, some suburban Boston weightlifter guy. He's like, what are you doing in my house? And he fucking chases him out with a fucking machete. You know what I'm saying? Like, you motherfucker.

He's coming after him. He breaks into Rob Gronkowski's house by accident and it's chased off by beat up by a guy in a bruins jersey yeah yeah i don't know what's going on over there so that's what i mean i don't believe him i think he i think he burglarizes also and i think sometimes he's like oh cool i can rape and kill that woman and burglarize her too yeah because i feel like doing that tonight. There's no evidence that the burglary happened before the murder on any of these. You know what I mean?

No, absolutely not. All these, it's all murder, then burglary. That sounds to me like a guy that murders and then does burglary shit just to cover it up and show a different reason. While I'm here, might as well get some free shit. I work at McDonald's, so it's not like he's got pockets overflowing with cash he needs the shit and he gets to rape and murder it's like oh boy what a what a package deal this guy has yeah there's no way the burglary is the reason he's there fuck no it doesn't really doesn't seem that so um 1997 the dempsey family sues 9-1-1 so not only do they get $100,000 from the city of Lexington, the tape, the 911 tape is part of the opening of the trial. And it's the Dempsey family alleging that an operator and the telephone company, formerly New England Telephone, are responsible for Kathleen's death.

Because medically, she might have made it. She might have lived. She had enough to at least call. If they got there in a couple minutes, she might have survived, man. Crazier things have happened. Yeah, she stayed alive for a while before that. So chances are she could have made it. Or at least made it until somebody got there.

Instead, she had to fucking die holding a phone. Somebody got there. Right. Instead, she had to fucking die holding a phone. That's somebody that's that stabbed and their throat slit that and they're calling within 15 minutes of the attack. 15 minutes to 20 minutes. You know what I mean? Yeah.

That's a window that you can work with. Four hours of bleeding. There's no window to work with. You're completely no windows, especially when she the liver has been lacerated, kidneys, all these things, diaphragm. So they're saying that the operator who patched the call through to the Lexington Fire Department did not pass on Dempsey's telephone number to the fire department dispatcher and did not identify herself as an operator. Just threw the call in the water there. Had she done those things they say that uh um the help could have been sent and possibly in time sure so it it took more than five hours obviously until they actually got there and found her dead near the foot of her bed

clutching the phone the dispatcher walter bullock said he received or he relieved robishaw like we said and decided to review the previous ships taped calls because there's probably not a lot of tape 911 calls from a small town and address it after repeatedly listening to the tape he got the address he called his shift commander who told him to call Dempsey

the line was busy because she was fucking holding it and the police were asked to check on her and 1057 they finally got there unbelievable so that's more than five hours later so uh yeah they sue there the dispatcher kenneth robeshaw told super uh superiors he thought the call was a hoax uh he resigned after they found out it wasn't because you know jesus christ what's your job when people are having an emergency to take their information what's your job is it are having an emergency to take their information

what's your job is it to assume things about what's happening on the other end of the line or take facts and send police to just to find out if it is a hoax what's the worst that could happen right police show up for no fucking reason and then they go away i mean yeah there's there's been tragedies that have happened when that's happened but it's better than there's a woman dying and fuck it let her lay there i mean you gotta try as a kid did you ever call 9-1-1 and then get yelled at by your mom when they called right the fuck back and your mom answered it nah we never call we never called 9-1-1 because that was we're italians we don't get involved with the police at all we're not calling them but me and my

cousin jesse when we were like four we called the operator yeah we thought it was funny to call the operator so we called the operator we're like hi hi how are you and she was like oh that's nice and you know there's kids and she's like okay hang up now i got we have to do our jobs and it's nice talking to you kids and hung up we're like that's funny so then we called up him call her back so my cousin jesse picks it up hits zero and she says you know operator and he goes fuck you and hangs up the phone jesse no don't do that and we laughed and we laughed and then 10 seconds later the phone rang again and we went and we fucking ran and like hid in a room and then we hear our mothers talking downstairs getting louder and louder and we're like oh shit and then there's two steps of footsteps we're like oh we're fucked we're in so much trouble we got yelled at

good for that shit i did it just because when you when we picked up the receiver there was a sticker on the phone that said in case of emergency dial 9-1-1 and i was like i don't know any other numbers so you're saying it's the only person you have like a pizza hut sticker on there you would have just had a large cheese delivered to you i don't know how else to use this fucking thing 9-1-1 hi hi i was like hey they're like what's your emergency and i was like oh shit hang up and then it rang right again we had two phones in the house my mom answered the other and she was like hello and she's like jimmy you little bastard i'm sorry jimmy ellis is what she said not jimmy i was like i'm in trouble i am fucked that's fucking amazing yeah and trouble with the operator's not good or no one you're in trouble either way anybody who's got a job on the phone you don't any adult who's calling your parents to complain about you is bad stuff when

you're little that's gonna teachers operators police anybody you're in trouble so um in court um dempsey's mother because she he goes to court for the to plead guilty for kathleen dempsey's murder first he pleads not guilty by the the way, after he was the one. It's like, dude, you called us. What are you talking about? You dialed 911, Jimmy. Yeah, Jimmy, you dialed 911. What is your emergency, sir?

Not guilty, but then he eventually decides to just plead guilty because, duh, it's pretty logical. I think he just wanted the deal he wanted. Not guilty, then he can negotiate for shit. That's how it works. I want because duh, it's pretty logical. I think he just wanted the deal. He wanted not guilty. Then, then he can negotiate for shit. That's how it works. That's why. Yeah.

He wants to go to New Hampshire now. He didn't get to go to Maine. So now he wants to go to New Hampshire. So Dempsey's mother, Evelyn Tobin, she, by the way, she went on to found Boston's garden of peace, which is a memorial to murder victims,

which is a memorial to murder victims, which is pretty cool. She told the court that she was reluctantly making an impact statement. She said, I'm reluctantly doing this, quote, because I didn't know if I wanted to give this evil murderer the satisfaction of knowing anything about Kathy. Just pretty. I get it. I get where she's coming from.

She said that right before she died, her daughter was about to embark on her master's degree in education. Quote, It was her dream to teach young children. She also called Conky a, quote, cowardly psychopath. Yeah, that's about right. Yeah, that's about right. And said that he ended her daughter's life for no reason other than the thrill of it, which is absolutely true. ended her daughter's life for no reason other than the thrill of it which is absolutely true then she said i have because he had brought up earlier how he the apocalypse is coming he doesn't want to go to hell and he's worried about his soul so she said quote i have news for him kathy is in heaven and there's no way he's going to ever join her there yeah so there's that yeah that would be really fucked up if there is a heaven yeah and you're a murder victim and you're like you're walking around with your halo and everything and you walk into a like you know heavenly burger king and you get in there and then there's the guy who murdered you you'd be like what the fuck yeah this is heaven what are we doing i have to deal with this asshole right and the onion rings aren't as warm as i'd like them like make fresh onion rings and keep my

murderer away from me these are the only things i ask of heaven and you can't about you fucking deliver this bullshit to me this sucks so um yeah he goes to uh do that he pleaded guilty to second degree murder um at first before this hearing he a doctor declared him competent to plead guilty to second degree murder after an examination at the at the request of conky's attorney and at the time the doctor told the court that conky was hearing voices but he did seem to understand the court system so he's probably good to plead who gives a shit uh yeah what's the difference um conky himself said he told the judge that he felt the trial would be a waste of time and taxpayer dollars. So just let me fucking let me fucking plea. Fair. Conky statement is this.

I've been waiting a long time just to come in and plead guilty. He said there's no need to investigate it. I'm guilty. I confessed everything I said in my statement to police was true. Yeah. The fucking let's go. So they a part of the plea agreement will make him eligible for parole in 15 years on this particular case. But he said he tells the judge that he knows he's never going to go free. He said, quote, realistically, I know I can't get paroled on two concurrent bids for second degree murder. They'll never parole someone like me. No, probably not. agree murder they'll never parole someone like me no probably not um part of the plea agreement the prosecutors make a recommendation to the department of corrections as to where he'll

serve a sentence because he doesn't like where he is apparently the family said that uh this is the mother again uh tobin she said they never gave up on the case this case was never on the back burner my daughter believed in justice and she'd be very happy. So she said that again. Good, good. She said, we feel a sense of relief that we are not going to have to be as vigilant as we have for the past 20 years. We can rest a little. It's never going to be over for us, but at least we know someone is going to pay the price. Yes. Her brother said she was a real she was just a real sweet girl. We were really close in age. We spent a lot of time together. And that's when he's the guy who said she didn't have a malicious bone in her body.

The DA said, quote, he was breaking into homes and burglarizing them. And the unfortunate reality in Kathy's killing and Mary Lou's killing is that they were inhabitants of those homes who woke up when he broke into those homes and sought to remedy that by killing them. woke up when he broke into those homes and sought to remedy that by killing them. Now, 2014, he pleads guilty in New Hampshire to first degree murder in Grafton County Superior Court of the murder of Teresa Reed. He is sentenced to you, sir, may fuck off the life without parole. So there you go. He's fucked on that now. Yeah, they get him good here um good deal uh now the court hearing when he goes to do that he responded to questions with just yes or no

just yes no yes no um several of the family members looked on at one point conkey told the judge during the hearing that he quote quote, let's get it over with. That's what he's going. Yes. No. Yes. Can we just fucking be done and sentence me and I'll go back to jail? It's a stupid.

That doesn't sound callous at all. Not at all. Right. Not at all. Well, the victim. Well, her family is there. Not callous at all. So her dad. This is Tessa's dad here.

This is Joseph. Joseph Reed. He said that the coincidence that his sentencing occurs on Valentine's Day, which was one of Teresa's favorite holidays. He said that he still has the last Valentine's card she sent him, signed like her other ones, love ya.

And he said, at Teresa's funeral, I had a few things to say, and I said that you're still part of humanity, talking to Conky, he said. Now, whether that's a blessing or a condemnation i don't know so yeah there you go sentencing um they asked whether the you know he said that they asked him whether he knew that first degree murder was the maximum charge he could receive because he pleaded guilty to first degree murder in this one not second and he instead

said well what about the death penalty can i get the fucking death penalty here or what can you just do that and they were like no you can't get that um for the crime at the time you did it it wasn't legal here and he said ah christ so he says quote after being in prison for 20 years i would have really preferred the death penalty yeah fucking place blows yeah this place sucks i can't get play. I can't get the death penalty. Fuck this place, man. Jesus Christ. You suck, Judge.

I want out. One way or another. You're no fun at all. Can I get some of those tickets so I can run around Dave and Buster's at least? Something? The new NBA Live is so sick. It's so... Come on.

2K, Judge. 2K. It looks so real. It's so real. Jesus. You can see LeBron's hairline recede and then come back. It's amazing. It gets stronger as you go on from 12 to now.

So while he's incarcerated here, the officials agreed that he will be incarcerated in New Hampshire. They said they would have no problem with that. But the movement across state lines will require both states departments of corrections to agree to the arrangement. But as long as all the suits are agreeing to it, they'll all agree to it. So if they don't, he'll remain in Massachusetts unless he makes parole, which he won't, because if he does, he'll be released into New Hampshire's custody where he'll serve the rest of his life. So either way, he's fucked. He says that he, quote, understands he's going to be incarcerated for the rest of his life. So doesn't really give a shit.

Teresa's dad said, quote, it's a happy day. It's a happy day to know that finally closure is coming in this case. Although I don't really know what closure is anymore. So closure is fine. It's a weird thing. It's a fucking weird thing. So that case, that guy's a serial killer. He's a disgusting serial killer. that case that guy's a serial killer he's a disgusting

serial killer i'm really worried about that that uh landlord is an awful person he seems like a terrible person i can't say he's a killer or anything but he seems like a bad guy here's the weird part about this case okay two two three weeks ago i can't remember we were looking for cases yeah and one of the cases i came up with was I found the Teresa Reed case in New Hampshire. And I looked into it some and I said, OK, I'll put this in my folder of possibilities for later. It's a cold case. We solved 20. I'm like, all right, we don't do, you know, cold case will be a different one to throw into the mix.

Then completely separately of that. That happened weeks ago. Then this week I'm looking for something in Massachusetts. And I find Lexington, Massachusetts, these murders. And I fucking look it all up and I get all the shit. And then I find at the end, oh yeah, he killed Teresa Reed. And I went, Teresa Reed? Why does that name sound familiar?

Open your desktop. And it's, Teresa Reed? Why does that name sound familiar? Open your desktop. And it's the fucking case I had before. So I'm like, either state is fine, but that's insanity that completely separately, weeks apart, two cases I picked of the same fucking murderer. So I'm like. You're like a New England cold case detective now, Jake. I'm like, we have to do this because it's just so, I mean, fate brought us to this asshole somehow, you know? Fate wanted us to call him a douchebag.

You pilgrim. Fucking crazy shit. But that is our crazy ass show. Unbelievable. It is a fucking disaster of shit this week. But what a web woven there. So there it is. If you like like it tell the world about it get on apple podcast stitcher this one that i don't care wherever the hell there's a rating system use it rate us give us five stars do all of that shit also head

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They're constantly thinking they're better than you, and you're going to let them punk you? They're so weird. Yeah, you're going to let us go into Portland going, oh, man, Seattle, they didn't all show up. You're all here but man you don't want that seattle you show portland people selling out and you're not you show portland who the fuck is boss seattle say god damn it we're up here this is where frazier's from

you don't even have the northwest we're in you don't even you don't even have a football team fuck off that's what you need to tell portland and portland can't wait to see you we love you too portland you can tell them you don't even have a football team. Fuck off. That's what you need to tell Portland. And Portland, can't wait to see you. We love you too. Yeah, Portland, you can tell them you don't even have a basketball team, so fuck you. Yeah, because you don't. There you go. And you can make fun of each other back and forth. So, yeah, do that. Come see a live show.

It's a lot of fun. Also, follow the show on social media. We're at Murder Small on Twitter, at Small Town Pod on Facebook, and at Small Town Murder on Instagram. And you can get all the updates for everything and all of our shows and do all that good shit there. Please do that. As well as a Patreon is what you really need. Patreon.com slash crime and sports this week.

My goodness, there's such good stuff. We have the episodes we released a couple of days ago. You get access by the way, $5 or above to every damn thing we put out, no matter what show it is or anything like that. tough we have uh the episodes we released a couple days ago you get access by the way five dollars or above to every damn thing we put out no matter what show it is or anything like that so this week's episodes number one the crime and sports episode is on counterfeit memorabilia yes and it's for everything actors signatures musicians sports shit you name it because they figured out to forge

all of that shit how to do, how to come up with fake authentication companies, and we've had many of our listeners now come to us with shit they now know is fake after this. Yeah, just, you know, some bands, whatever. It's fucking ridiculous. So, check that out. It's really wild.

It has nothing really to do with sports. It's just insanity. And then for Small Town Murders episode, we're going to do something really cool. We're going to talk about very strange and weird shit that goes on at like county fairs and state fairs and these weird carnivals in the middle of nowhere. We're talking people dressing llamas up like fucking Cinderella

and taking them to like a prom. That's weird. Tiny monkeys riding on dogs and racing that's my favorite strangest thing i've ever seen in my life it's really fucking weird and you can hear all about it patreon.com slash crime and sports and in addition to that since you're one of our wonderful wonderful people and we appreciate you so goddamn much you're gonna get a shout out too which we're gonna do in just a second here. And Jimmy will mispronounce your name, even though he'd love to.

With his whole heart, he'd love to say it correctly. But he can't. He just can't. That's not his fault. Some of your names are complicated. They really are. It might be. Yes, when he says Pamela, that's on him.

That one's on him. Just a little bit me, a little bit you. When it's a 14-letter last name, you know what? Don't expect it right. And laugh at whatever he says because it's fucking funny. So there you go. Know he's trying his best and do that. And find all that at patreon.com slash crimeandsports.

Or if you just want to get that shout out and have wonderful karma that you gave something nice to a couple of guys that worked their asses off to give you some free shit. You can do that as well over at PayPal using our email address, crimeandsports at gmail.com. That said, Jimmy, I need it. I need to hear. It's a long week now. We're going on the road.

I need to hear the goddamn names of the people who would never, ever, ever break into our house and then murder us just because we were there. Jimmy, please hit me with that list. This week's executive producers are Mike Oiler, Peyton Meadows. Happy birthday, Jen Visconti, by the way. Last week she wanted, it was her 40th birthday, and I missed that part. Oh, shit. Happy birthday. Got her name in.

Didn't tell her it was her birthday. I apologize, Jen. Happy birthday. Happy birthday, David. Jacob Carl, what's this? Jacob Carl Schultz Coltsy in Australia. Oh, in Australia. Thank you, Jen. Happy birthday. Happy birthday, David. Jacob Carl, what's this? Jacob Carl Schultz Coltsy in Australia. Oh, in Australia. Thank you, Jacob.

Gina Smart, Christine Depot. Deepot? I don't know. Probably Depot. Sober Mentor Jeff Watson and his partner Shelly. Thanks for helping Chris Harrison. Keep it up. You guys are amazing.

Thank you. Chris says he loves you, and so do I. Jordan Bennett, Janice Hill, Lindsay Bullfinch. Casey's in love with you, apparently. Chrissy and Matt Boyle. Kea Torres. Happy birthday, electrician magician Zach in Portland. Hey, birthday electricians.

Anthony Wally, Zach Ware, or Weir. Maria Allison. You guys are truly the lifeblood of this. Thank you so much. Thank you. Other producers this week are Gary Howard, James Marder, hero Jessica Jay. James, she found a house on fire in her neighborhood and fucking saved people. Whoa, really?

She got people out of the house and saved animals and shit. Unbelievable. Thank you, Jessica. That's incredible shit. Yeah. And Renee Perry. They're both in Norman, Oklahoma. I believe they're coming to the show in OKC.

I don't remember. I hope so. Nancy Weaver. Happy birthday, Corporal Carl Kirschner. Hey! 50 years old, you son of a bitch. Umat and all over the place. Happy birthday.

Christy Hansen. Jeffrey Shrewsbury. Caroline Gola. Happy Hour in Castle Rock. Checking in. Calzone Ingredients. Muda Calzaga. John Castleman.

Sister Samantha. Happy birthday. David Beers. Stuart saunderson and ontario killer con butcher paul vachon you know them i'm sure that's vachon vachon that's what i'm sure paul and mad dog is his brother there you go luna is there is this is a butcher's daughter there you go chelsea fushino williams rebecca nutley swamp queen jess on only fans jesus christ oh boy uh amanda miller jacob knight of the band Jesse Fushino-Williams, Rebecca Nutley, Swamp Queen Jess on OnlyFans. Jesus Christ. Oh, boy. Amanda Miller, Jacob Knight of the band Verstalen on Spotify.

Oh, God, brother. Yeah, there it is. And Leskinen, happy birthday. Rachel Waters, Emma Kachamani. Kachatori. Whatever. Kach it all. Anthony Colon in Brooklyn.

He was the bald guy that looked just like me in the front row. Oh, in the front row where he was. I actually went, I got a call out that you look like Jimmy because it's so distracting. He was right there. I would see him and snap my head up to make sure you were still next to me because I was like, why'd you go in the front? I got to go down here and stare at you, James. It looks better. So weird.

Yeah, that was freaking me out. Very strange. Samantha Quigley at Maria's Bathory. Jeff Pede. Oh, that's terrible. Cheer up, bitch. Jesus. Yeah.

Pede. Jeff Dordle. Debbie Rose. Emily Neal. Garrett Woodbury. Mary Cecil. Cecil Chick. Cecil Chick.

Yeah. HP. Ian Kelly. Allison Bryan. Kevin Warren. Leanne Good. Patrick Tully. Emily Lanford, Josh Norton, Jessica Villa, Vanis Carter, Mike Kane, Victoria Glass, Jim Percival, Nicole Fisher, Patricia Sobral. Oh, boy. Sobral.

Courtney Ann, Candy Taylor, Mitchell Connelly, Helen with two L's, Kinsey Preston Catarsi, Joey Mendoza, Lindsay with no last name, Shelby Baranek, Thomas Overlander, Dan Vishny, Justin Scanlon, Danielle with no last name, Devis Patel, Jen Fortner, Dave Henry, Kaelin Clevenger, Justin Parker, Brendan Powell, yep, Danny Start. Justin Hofford. Deborah Nicholas. John Onan. Juliet with no last name. Kelly B. Michael Salter.

Emmy loves you. She doesn't love Mike. I don't know. That's a hard way. Derek McKee. Probably not that one. No, all right. It'd be awesome if it was.

Thanks for the Pacers, I think. Levi with no last name. Nathan Good, Naomi Torres, Kathleen Ward, Katerina Succardi? Succardi? Don't suck it. James Farrell, Karen with no last name. Alex O'Connor, Shauna Fisher, April Heath, Hannah Chialti, Stacey Pitter, Bill Perry,

Lexi Jones, Emily with no last name, Jason Schoen, Jeffrey Quisling, Jismaine, no, no, it's just me, Turner, shit, that's a tough one, Jasmine, Jasmine Turner. There you go. Jesus, Jimmy, besmirch this poor person. Kelly Heidemann, Anna Holcomb, Claire Harrison, Nicole Pruitt, Peyton Nelson, Sarah Della Montagna, Mahler, Jesus, Marcus Galan, Faith Corley, Alexis Williams, Amanda Pizel, Libel, Christopher Jacobs, Sammy Grouse, Ann Harvey, Kyla McFartypans,

Lauren Dene, Ann E. with no last name, Cole Bandit, Anthony Peregrin, Carrie Guthrie, Betty Humpter. All right. Catherine Pera, Zach Weir. I already said that one once. Rosa Flores, Jessica Rodriguez, Hannah Quinn. Anna would know last name. Ryan and Jessica Holton, Eric Demme, Cody Karras, Ian Grigsby, David Gwynn, Nick with no last name, Matt Jarvis, Carly Cortina, Rogan Weaver, James with no last name, D.S. Maggie Michelle Campana, Alyssa Schneppel, Emmy Katchy, Sophie with no last name, Mitch with no last name, Angela with no last name, Nathaniel Mendenhall, Dan Cordery, Sebastian Jimenez, Rick Jennings, Desmond Williams, Mike with no last name, Sarah Bridges, Heather Wagner, Karen McKenna, Teal Sexton, Austin with no last name, Dustin Dustin would know the last name, Ebony Kennedy, A. Ron Chee-Quals, I think that's a reference to Key and Peele, I think so. I think possibly.

I think so. Clayton Krems, Hunter Bresnik, Jordan Dalton, Peter would know the last name, Stacy McLeod, Aaron Collins, Olivia would know the last name, Penny Lindsey, Sarah Kukura, Jason Summers, Daniel Wheeler, Stephen Cuny-Riggioni. Nope, that's not right. Bethany Ray, Bryce Windham, Mitch Hillegas, Aaron P., Kyle Alexander-Fanning, Cameron Lansford, Ice Wallow-Cum. I don't know what that is. Ice Wallow-Cum? I think you know what it is. That's what it is. I don't know what that is. I don't know what that is. Josh. I swallow cum. I think you know what it is. That's what it is. I don't know what that is.

I don't know what that is. Josh Pulaski. Alyssa Fernandez. Trent Brownstone. Veronica Coratini. Scott with no last name. Gail Teatard. What?

What is this? Norma with no last name. Charles King. Matt Melvin. Matt Bassett. John Connor. Wow. Matt Melvin. Matt Bassett. John Connor. Wow. Camille Miranda.

Andy with no last name. Sean Brown. And Peter Hamlet. And obviously all of our patrons. You guys are amazing. Most importantly, Ice Wallow come. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody. You are. You're amazing. We appreciate the shit out of you. Everybody on Patreon, everybody on PayPal,

everybody who, even anybody in the groups who are trying to spread the show to friends and everything like that, thank you so much for doing that. We don't have a big thing to spread it. We don't buy advertising on people's shows. We're not, you don't hear us on everybody else's podcasts promoting it or doing any

shit like that we we're we're gonna give you guys the show and we hope it spreads naturally and that's what we've hoped and it's worked so far it's worked very well and thank you for spreading the show naturally what we're saying is continue to spread it amongst yourselves thank you like a disease spread this fucking show what All naturally. All naturally. What if people wanted to hunt you down and make sure you were eradicated like a disease? How could they do that? I really appreciate you finding me on the internet at WismanSucks on Twitter and Instagram. Where are you, James?

Definitely. I am at JimmyPIsFunny, or you could just search the show. You Google search Small Town Murder. We're the only hosts. I promise you that. You will get no Town Murder. We're the only hosts. I promise you that. You will get no other answers. So do that. Find us.

You can go to shutupandgivememurder.com. You can get T-shirts, tickets, and follow us. Links to the social media. Everything in one goddamn place. So do that and keep coming back because we're going to keep coming back. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music.

Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.