Small Town Murder - #517 - Slaughter At Bloody Ranch - Hondo, New Mexico

Episode Date: August 15, 2024

This week, in Hondo, New Mexico, a very famous person's ranch is the scene of the slaughter of three people. Brutal attacks took these people out, one by one. When the blame falls on the 14 year old son of the ranch's caretaker, the whole area goes crazy, some with support for him, others with anger & vitriol. The case comes down to whether he had a real reason to commit this act, and the evidence is overwhelming!Along the way, we find out that: you shouldn't dress teen girls in old west brothel clothes and make them get on a stage; that despite what makers of porn think, not everyone wants to have sex with their stepmother; and that some people are actually kind & forgiving!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I'm Dan Tuberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast. What's the answer? And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head? Hysterical, a new podcast from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios. Binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad free on Wondery Plus. This week in Hondo, New Mexico, a very famous man finds that his house has been turned into a bloodbath and that the property's caretakers are nowhere

to be found, leading to gruesome discoveries and a twisted tale of darkness. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petragallo. I'm here with my co-host. I! Yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petragallo. I'm here with my co-host.

I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another, I'm telling you, wild edition of Small Town Murder again, as they are every week. Hope you've been enjoying the last few here. Before we get started here, you should definitely head over to shutupandgivemurder.com. Get your tickets for live shows everybody better do it's right September the 20th Minneapolis

State Theater it's beautiful it is we're going to befoul it with dick jokes so come on in hang out with us see a live small town murder if you've never been to a live show well I can say it's not like a college lecture or something it's not we're comedians it's a comedy show we're uncomfortable if you're not laughing a lot lecture or something. We're comedians. It's a comedy show. We're uncomfortable if you're not laughing a lot. So we don't know how to be on stage and have people be quiet. That'd be weird. So it's going to be all the murder, all the pictures and tons of jokes. Trust us, you're going to walk out of there hurting. So definitely come check us out there. September 20th and the rest of the year is also for sale. Oklahoma

City is just about sold out. We're like 10 tickets scattered throughout the place. Individuals, that's there. Kansas City selling quick. Also Boston and New York at the end of the year. They're almost gone. So get your tickets right now if you want to get in there as well. Shut up and give me murder.com is where you get all of that. You certainly want Patreon as well. Because I know you're listening to this. You're listening to Express, small town murder express. You certainly want Patreon as well. Because I know you're listening to this, you're listening to Express, Small Town Murder Express, you're listening to Crime and Sports on Mondays,

and of course you're listening to your stupid opinions and you're like, I need more! We got it for you. Anybody, $5 a month or above, we have a back catalog that's huge, just clogged with bonus episodes, hundreds of them that you're gonna get right away. New ones every other week, one Crime and Sports,

one Small Town Murder, this week is no different. What we're gonna get right away new ones every other week one crime and sports one small town murder This week is no different what we're gonna get here for crime and sports. You're gonna talk about the Duke lacrosse Disaster that whole scandal that the party and the strippers. It's a it's a wild time there and then for small-town murder We were gonna talk about the Idaho murders this Brian Coburger idiot and we're gonna get into this because this guy's pissing me off I don't like it when when you know there's a mountain of evidence against you and you're just like I don't know what you're talking about I get drives me crazy it drives me crazy like if you're dumb enough to leave lots of evidence behind take it on the chin bro so we're gonna talk about this guy a little bit in this whole situation here that's wild stuff that is that's patreon.com slash

crime in sports is where you get all of that. And you'll get a shout out at the end of the show where Jimmy's going to mispronounce your name. He's going to try, but it's not going to work out. So we know how that goes every time. There you go. So get those, get Patreon. Disclaimer time. Here we go. This is a comedy show. It's also extremely and scarily real at the same time. We're comedians though, there's gonna be jokes. We can't help it since that's how we do things. But I'm telling you, nothing's made up for comedic effect or anything like that. No silly shit like that we're not gonna get into here.

In the way, you know, you might go, how did true crime and comedy go together? How do you do it? And we go, very easily as a matter of fact. You just avoid certain things. There's nothing funny about an actual murder when someone's dismembering someone we're not like that's hilarious and then that's that's not where it is there's plenty of comedy out there especially when you think about it someone goes I'm gonna murder people and get away with it and then

they're a moron that's hilarious right there that's what we do what we don't do though we never make fun of the victims or the victims families. Why? Because we're assholes. Yeah, but? But we're not scumbags. That's how that works here. So that sounds good to you. You're going to hear a wild story. Do you think true crime and comedy should never ever go together? Not sure exactly why you clicked on this to begin with. But what we'll say is definitely no bitching later because we're going to hear a wild story, it's gonna be fun, and all that. So for everybody out there that wants to hear some crazy stuff here, I think it's time.

Let's do it. All let's sit back here, I think it's time, let's all clear the lungs, arms to the sky, let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we? and give me murder. Let's do this everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's take off, we're going somewhere,

you're not gonna like it at all, Jimmy. New Mexico. Not a fan. Your least favorite state. Being born in Colorado and then growing up in Arizona, it's also like a local thing, so it's the state below you and east of you and you're gonna hate it there. And also it's a miserable shithole. So you add

those two things together. It's the same the whole time. You really get something. This is in south central New Mexico. It's down there closer to the border than to Albuquerque. Put it that way. It's about three. It's about about three hours to Albuquerque. Two hours to our last episode Which was Fort Sumner, New Mexico the last one we did in the state episode 466. No remorse Plenty of stupid was the name of that one This is in Lincoln County, which you've probably heard of because there was the Lincoln County Wars was a big thing back then So we'll talk a little bit about that in the history and area code here five seven five Did you say the name?

Hondo, yeah, Hondo, New Mexico. I said it at the top. Oh, I said it at the top and then when it says Hondo, New Mexico, Hondo with an O instead of an A. Yeah, that's the name of my mom's dog. Hondo? Yeah, because of a John Wayne movie. Interesting. Do you know what it means? It means John Wayne was in it. Yes. That's actually

the exact, that's how the Spanish came up with that hundreds of years ago, knowing about John Wayne's future, which is pretty remarkable, I gotta say, for any kind of culture to come up with that. The county was named after Abraham Lincoln, and it was once the largest county in the United States. Wow. Not in people, but in land. Yeah. Covering the whole state. A lot of these too.

In Southwestern Arizona, we went over this in a bonus episode about Doc Holliday and stuff. It was the hugest, huge county. It was the whole Southwestern part of Arizona was one county back in the day here. This became the site for the Lincoln County War in 1870s between ranchers and the owners of the county's largest general store. That was the beach. This is Jesse James' shit, right?

This is Billy the Kid. This is Billy the Kid became involved on the side of the ranchers after his friend was killed. And that's how this happened. If you've ever seen young guns, it's loosely, you know, factually sort of accurate. In the back, goddammit. At least how it all builds up is kind of factually accurate. And then it, you know, factually sort of accurate. Yeah. In the back, god damn it. At least how it all builds up is kind of factually accurate and then it becomes dramatic at the end. Then it becomes teenage boys fighting for an old man. That's how it goes.

It's kind of weird. It's a little bit strange. It's kind of like the boy band documentary there. Except that this old man didn't have a fucking Ponzi scheme going on on the side too. Yeah. And in the side, too And in the end Justin Timberlake just gets a DUI. That's it. That's the end. It's a big ending That's the craziest documentary of all time because I've never I'd never watched a documentary and went no molestation at all What the fuck? No, I was expecting it. I was expecting it. I was braced for it

I was braced to hear about you know Lance Bass getting nuts tickled by an old man. Never happened. Weird. I wanted to feel pity for Chris Kirkpatrick. Now I have none. I have none. I couldn't do it. So in the end, Billy the Kid killed the county sheriff and a deputy also that killed his

friend too. So he got his revenge there and that's how that went. So people in this town, in the whole area there's about a thousand, but they say the population I guess of the town proper is 459. This is some out there shit. There's tiny, there's nothing here. I mean, it's really not a lot of anything going on.

A few more females and males, it's about average. Median age here is well above the national average. It's 37 in the rest of the country. Here it's 59.7 is the median age. Wow, almost 60. There is no one in the age groups of 0 to 4. There's no babies. 15 to 17, 18 to 20, 21 to 24, 25 to 34 or 45 to 54. Wow. No one. So there's some kids aged 5 to 14 and then everyone else is over 55. So I don't know how the hell that happened but that's what's going on here. It's a small time. Anytime you're under a thousand, the stats can get real wacky. And there's probably not a lot of those youthful ones. The average age is 50 something.

No, a couple, their parents died, they came to live with their grandparents or something. That's all it is. It's 78% married. It's usually 50-50 in this country. 8.3% divorced here, so there's like no divorce either. It's very strange here. This town has only white people and Mexican people. There's nobody else. That's it. It's 33.3% white, 66.7% Hispanic. Done. That's it. It's only the people that

are here. Unemployment rate here is pretty high. It's 8.8%, which is like double the national average here. Median household income here, wow, not terrific. 40,977 is the median household income. It's about 69,000 in the rest of the country. So people are hurting here. What are they doing here? Well, people are either very wealthy and own giant ranches or they're poor

and they work on those ranches. That's the only people that live here. That's it. And even like the ranch hands, those are a lot of older people from what I've discovered from this because- Well, they've gotta be. That's not a thing that a lot of kids are like, I'm gonna be a ranch hand. That's just kind of, it's an older profession. So it's not, tends to be older guys and the older people you hire because they tend to know what they're doing more with everything. Cost of living here, 100 is regular average.

Here it's 89. Now housing is the cheap thing. Housing cheaper. The median home cost is $309,000 here, which is below the average. But there's no real houses that cost that is the problem, as we'll find out with our Hondo, New Mexico real estate report. The average two bedroom rental here, which there's no like apartment complexes or anything. So I don't know where that's coming from.

It's like a half address somewhere. It's 770 which is well below the national average. Here's a three bed two bath 1568 foot shitty manufactured home. But it's on three acres. All these properties come with acres. That's the thing too. So you can't get just like a house on a quarter acre that doesn't exist here. You have to buy acreage.

No tract homes. No, no cul-de-sacs or neighborhoods, so to speak. So it's an outdated manufactured home. I mean, what do you want? It's someone's old carpeting in there. That's what I don't like is when there's carpeting. I don't want to, I don't want to like sit on my living room floor and smell your feet from like the previous owner. I don't want that.

I don't know what you did on that floor. I don't want carpet in the house at all. No. Roll up your rugs and throw them out. Gross. We'll mop and now your DNA is not in here. Yeah, put some fucking flooring down and bleach it. Please.

For the love of God. So this place, $325,000 for that though. Jesus Christ. For a shitty manufactured home, but you get three acres of land. That's not worth it, is it? I would say not, not unless you wanna build a new house, probably.

Here's a three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,646-square-foot house, so not that big. It's a little ranch. It even has the little gate entrance there, but there's no big. It's a little ranch. It's a little red even has like the you know The little gate entrance there, but there's oh, yeah, there's no sign above it. You got a name it yourself Oh, yeah, I got a bar across it. It is on 10 acres, which is nice You got 700 feet of riverfront as well. This is a great a butts the river. That's nice It's not bad. It's kind of ugly inside there's

definitely some shit that needs to be updated but who gives a shit six hundred eighty five thousand bucks for that though again steep it's expensive yeah but I guess if the outdoor life is your thing and you want to be out here living outdoors that's not that bad for ten acres on the river I guess you know here's a three-bedroom three-bath tee-bowl for each and every beehole right here. 3674 square foot house. It is on buckle up 570 acres. That's a fuckload of land. That's too much land. You couldn't even get to all that land all the time. What's the point?

I look at Zillow from time to time and out there places and I've found a few that have several hundred acres Think about how wild that could be but if something happens on the property you got to go do you know? You know fix what I'm not gonna use all that land. What am I fucking building a Multi sports complex out there. I'm gonna put a football stadium on underneath that much land? I'd be confused if I was actually on my property or not. Who the hell would know anymore? I don't even know if I'm in America anymore. Where the fuck am I?

So I'm out there. This place, 570 acres, it's on a mountainside too. So you own like the mountain behind you and shit. So your property's straight up? It's interesting. It's not bad as far as a house goes. Inside it's pretty nice. It's updated.

These people are pretty, they have a few bucks that live here. You could tell, but there's a bunch of outbuildings. There's a weird like tower thing. Like you're in the 1800s and you're watching out for the Apache, I think. It's one of those? It's what it seems like, but the house wasn't, isn't that old. So it's maybe was built as like a replica of an old house type of thing or maybe or maybe that that thing is still there and the old house is gone. That's true, too I'm not sure but this house is one million nine hundred ninety thousand dollars for five hundred eight five hundred seventy acres

If you got that kind of money and you're looking for space it's not a bad deal Ever heard of that's what I mean. That's shitload here. Things to do in this town. Oh boy let's find out what they have to do in a town of 500 people. What could you possibly do? Well there's the hondo fiesta and enchilada dinner. Oh baby! I'm in yeah. Okay. I like it. Join the celebration of the 70th anniversary of this hondo tradition enjoy an evening filled with outstanding performances from Fill in the blank ad lib here mad lib this. Tom and Betty? Nope from preschool to 12th grade. Oh, yeah Gonna burn this bitch down with kids performances. Can't fucking wait

Oh my god featuring dancers in colorful costumes performing Spanish, Mexican and New Mexican dances. Yeah. I don't know what the difference between any three of those would be. And a whole bunch of hot cross buns on the recorder. You know that. Don't miss out on the enchilada dinner at the school from 4pm to 530. Who the fuck is stuffing their faces with dinner enchiladas at four o'clock in the afternoon? That's how old there are these people. Yeah, so it's going on. It's six dollars for adults four dollars for children Which is hilarious and then if you just want to see the performances, you know, you don't want any enchiladas It's my box. Oh my box to watch a choir sing. Yeah Ridiculous. They have to pay for both

Take it all in it's's 11 bucks we're talking about here. It's a lot. Then there's the Billy the Kid pageant, an old Lincoln days, which I thought this would be a bunch of people trying to look the most like Billy the Kid. That's what I figured it would be, but it's not. It's just-

It's just his name? He's just named at that? Yeah, cause he's famous and they don't have much going on here and The annual folk pageant has reenactors portraying Billy the kids last escape and the notorious Lincoln County war is a regional Favorite everyone loves it. There's live music which they don't tell you what it is. So that must be great It's a folk pageant with reenactors portraying Billy the Kid's last escape, though. Interesting. This is 83 years they've been doing this, by the way.

How do they know if it's his last escape? We don't even know if he died. Here is the pageant part. Oh, fuckin' yeah. These are teenage girls, Jimmy. Oh, they are? Those are teenage girls dressed up like old west, basically prostitutes, I would say.

Yeah, they're definitely. They're dressed like they're like a mix between old west prostitute and dancers from Chicago, the musical. That's what they're dressed like, teenage girls. Backup dancers for Hell on Heels. Yeah, and some of them look uncomfortable up there too. Like why? Yeah, mom, I told you I don't, I'm not ready for this dress yet.

And the people behind them are the best. It's a guy in a big cowboy hat and some like long haired blonde lady. They're sitting at a desk like with pens like judging them, like marking off. Sounds like some cankles. It's so weird. There's also the Smokey the Bear Historical Park. Okay. Alright.

During 1944, in World War II, the U.S. Fire Service decided to use a bear to spread the fire prevention message. He started in World War II? World War II. Wow. It was named after a New York assistant fire chief named Smokey Joe Martin. So they called him Smokey the Bear. And on May 9th, 1950, in the aftermath of a huge fire in the Capitan Mountains there, a badly burned bear cub was found. So he became the living symbol

of fire prevention, Smokey the Bear. There he is. And then he grew up nature animals die and he grew up and put a hat on and went out in the forest stomped on cigarettes and judged you pissed on campfires yeah so then Smokey got old though the bear yeah bears don't live forever so they were like shit he's got to retire so the people of the town wanted their bear to be returned to his hometown. So upon his death in 1976,

I didn't know bears lived that long. That's a long one. Smokey was flown home and buried in what is now the Smokey the Bear Historical Park. So you can go visit the grave of a bear, of an actual bear who survived and lived a full life and then died. I don't understand what we're looking at here exactly.

Maybe they should show that more often. Like show a fucking burned elk carcass and maybe some people will start thinking twice about putting their fucking campfire up. Something cute, get something cute. Show it all fucked up, that's what it has to be. Show a fucking baby something. Show, yeah, show, just like a,

that even, it doesn't't have to be a woods animal Just like look at this puppy look at it Look at it. God damn it. It's a it's a puppy parmesan now. You've made it into a you've cooked it 90% of all forest fires are human caused it's like dude. What the fuck are you doing out there? You can avoid that shit. Yeah, it's really upsetting to me. I don. And it's like, dude, what the fuck are you doing out there? How dare you? You can avoid that shit. Yeah, you can avoid it. It's really upsetting to me. I don't know.

It's annoying. It is, it's the worst. In my heart, I get really mad. Well, also, you live in a state that's constantly on fire, so I don't blame you. Yeah, that's it, yeah. It's always on fire. The whole Southwest of America is always on fire.

Always. Because people are fucking assholes. And that last one, that's this giant fire in California, a dude pushed a flaming car into a gully. I think he was trying to commit insurance fraud or some shit. I don't know that he was trying to start the woods on fire. He's probably making a fucking YouTube video. This is going to get me followers. I'm going to get so many likes for this. It's now the fifth largest fire in California history.

Unbelievable. You got to stop people. This is fucking absurd. Fucking ridiculous here. So by the way, the tower, because this thing has a fire tower, that tower might be to look for fires coming at you from the distance. I bet you're right. From the surrounding lands. That's probably what those towers are for.

So everybody who tweeted that to us or fucking sent us Instagram messages about that, you can take them back now. We're good. We figured it out. So. Yeah, there's one, there's a few in Arizona. I've driven to them off road. It's very, they're just unattended, I guess. You can just go out there and then climb up in them

and see for fucking miles, man. It's unbelievable. See forever. Crime rate in this town, what we are interested in, property crime slightly above average, but not too much, which is wild because everybody's super spread out. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course assault is about the Mount Rushmore of crime. Yeah.

That's about 20% above the national average. What is happening out here? I don't know. I don't know if it's just lawless, if it's still Billy the Kid times or just hanging on to that whole culture. Law don't go around here, law dog. You've got like Ike Clanton telling Doc Holiday. We'll take your horse if we want it.

That's right. So that said, let's talk about some wild crazy murder here. And let's go back to July 2004. I believe it's July 8th, 2004 to be exact. And let's start out with some, we never start out with something like this. It's always like, let's talk about a person you've never heard of from the middle of nowhere. Well, the first person we're gonna talk about today

is a very famous person, Sam Donaldson. Let's bring into this. Who the hell's that? From the news for 55 fucking years or some shit? Oh, Jesus, really? Good morning, I'm a plastic fucking mannequin-haired, I'm Sam Donaldson. News guy. News guy, yeah. Sam Sam Donaldson. News guy. News guy, yeah.

Sam fucking Donaldson. Wow. He, by the way, you, for mid-century America here in the 20th century, you apparently made a fuckload of money doing new shit because... Dude, these people make so much money. He's got a ranch that there are houses on the ranch that are 23 miles apart, and he owns all of it And he owns the land in between them all of it. That's wow

Great think about how much fucking land that is that's and he's renting to those people or no No, they're his homes to the we'll talk about it Sam Donaldson owns the whole entire ranch It's the same don'ts and least 25 miles of roads. Miles of New Mexico. New Mexico. So much of it. It's called the Chavez Canyon Ranch, and it's enormous. There's horses and cattle, and it's like, it's a whole workin' ranch, man.

So he's got horse guys, cowboys, he's got cattle people, he's got caretakers, everything you can imagine works here. So he gets, he'd been trying to call his house and talk to the caretaker And couldn't get a hold of him So Sam here decides he's gonna take a trip out to the ranch and check it out himself get the camera crew We're going to the ranch and he's Get my hair shellac, please Check out picture this guy in a ranch.

So he gets there about 4.30pm and immediately sees some stuff that he is not okay with here. He's been in the news and he sees the worst. Oh he sees it. He said on the porch he found a large reddish dry splotch which was clearly blood, is what he said. Then he found a similar spot on the kitchen floor and blood all over the laundry room as well. So he called the sheriff's office right from there.

There's also appeared to be a broken pair of eyeglasses on the porch and multiple blood trails where it looks like someone was dragged and blood smeared behind them. All over the fucking place. This place is just a mess. Just a bloodbath. Yeah, he said it was wild. He called the sheriff's office and said, I cannot find my ranch manager, but I found a great deal of congealed blood. But I found a great deal of congealed blood. This morning on Good Morning America. A great deal of congealed blood this morning on Good Morning America.

A great deal of congealed blood and Dolly Parton will join us in the second hour, so make sure to come here. Such a fucking real weird, he said, he saw all of that. He said, I covered the war in Vietnam. I saw a lot of it there, meaning blood, and I walked to the kitchen and immediately saw a red swath that was on the porch from the kitchen floor. So he's looking around.

I'm going to be replaced by Michael Strahan. Someday a man who led the league in sacks in 2011 will replace me. He'll have more credibility than a man who covered fucking Vietnam. Jesus. That's hilarious. Unbelievable. People just want personality, that's all. So he can't find the ranch family. This is the, he comes to the house

that the ranch family's staying in because they have a little house on the property that they stay on and he went there because he was trying to get ahold of them to find out some ranch stats or something. Who the hell knows? I don't know. Run the numbers at me.

When you own just miles of ranch, I'm not sure exactly what kind of information you need but I assume there's lots of it you know some averages we got an awesome you know at least how's the weather over there on the east side of the property yeah well on the west side it's this much on the east side it's that much so he he can't find any of these people they call he calls the police the cops come in and they see immediately inside the living room, they see a sofa, and on the sofa there's a big dark apparent blood-soaked section of the sofa.

It looks like somebody bled out into the sofa. On the couch there was a pillow and a book near it. There's a pillow there, a book near the pillow, and then just somebody explode somebody just bled out on there. Yeah, they just their ass all opened up and their insides came out. So they said there was discoloration on the pillow which was red that looked like blood. They also found hair fibers and human tissue on the pillow as well. So they're thinking possibly someone was murdered on the pillow and bled out on the couch, obviously. In the living room, there's blood spatters on the west wall and on the south wall as

well. Spatter action. So it looked like a body also had been dragged from the living room through the kitchen and then out across the back porch. So it looks like you could see right from the couch, someone bled out and then they were dragged outside. So they're like, okay, that's not good. They get outside, there's blood all over the kitchen too

and there's more drag marks. So they get outside and they see that there are fresh backhoe tracks that are fresher than any of the other tracks on the pack. So just in walking around walking around they decide to follow the tracks to see what they find. Maybe that'll lead us somewhere. So they also look at the backhoe and see there's blood in the bucket part. Like okay yeah let's go ahead and uh yeah follow the tracks of this thing. So they follow it

and they find there's some dirt and it looks like that someone took a few scrapes out of the dirt but then had given up because there's just some small scrapes and there's a small pool of blood there as well. So it looks like they gave up. So then they they noticed other backhoe tracks that led all the way down to a ravine back, you know, another part of the property that led to a manure pile, a giant shit pile, literally huge giant shit pile. If you've seen on a farm or a ranch, they have these huge shit piles. So the cop said he could tell where the front bucket of the backhoe had dug and removed some material from the pile. Cause you can see it was smushed up into a, you know,

into a bald position there. Was there a crime committed? As far as I'm concerned, there wasn't. Guilty by Design dives into the wild story of Alexander and Frank, interior designers who in the 80s landed the jackpot of all clients. We went to bed one night and the next morning we woke up as one of the most wanted people in the United States. What are they guilty of? You can listen to Guilty by Design exclusively and ad free on Wondry Plus. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple podcasts, or Spotify. Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all

in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught. I'm Saatchi Cole. And I'm Sarah Haggye. And we're the host of Scamfluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away. We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit filed by Larry King, and no real product to push.

He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs. To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Giudice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame. Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad-free right now on Wondry+. So he said that he circled around the manure pile to a small ravine and this cop wanted

to see the backside of the pile, see if he could see anything. He said he made sure not to step on any of the backhoe tracks or anything like that. At this point when he got around and this, I don't even know how you would smell this, but he said he smelled the odor of something dead over a pile of a giant ranch's worth of shit. How do you smell anything under that? Honestly.

It all smells like shit at this point. But that stuff crusts over and then it doesn't stink anymore unless it rains or you crack that crust. Yeah, well yeah, yeah. I guess so. Seems like that much shit would smell, you know what I mean? Just logically, but I guess scientifically

it's not quite the same. I ain't talking about shit, but it's so gross. But like, what animals eat though. We're dealing in shit right now, we have to, it's not our fault. Yeah, you're right, yeah. But animals just eat grass and stuff, so when it's turned into shit, it's not like ours.

It stinks though, I've been on a farm, it's not like ours. It stinks though. I've been on a farm. It smells like shit. It's a different shit though. Shit's shit to me, I think. I'm going to go with shit's shit. It's all mammal shit. A grassy shit.

So you're saying a vegetarian human shit is fine. I think that I would assume that a vegetarian shit smells entirely different than somebody who eats hot fucking Fritos. A vegan log is going to smell different than if you had Jack in the Box three times this week. Yeah, hot fries and Jumbo Jacks and McNuggets and I think all of that stuff smells different than just grass shit. I would hope so. Or fucking Brussels, I don't know, Brussels bros that stuff smells different than just grass shit or... I would hope so.

Or fucking Brussels sprouts. I don't know, Brussels sprouts shit probably smells bad. Brussels sprouts smell bad before you're processed through your goddamn system and shot out your asshole. They can't smell good coming out. Yeah. There's a lot of grains that smell pretty bad before you even turn it into that. So they look a little farther and they see an aging deer carcass in a nearby ravine.

Oh. So they're like, okay, but they said the odor was too strong for that level of decomposition of a deer carcass. It was much more of a strong, if there was eight deer maybe, but not one deer sitting over there. Yeah, dried out carcass doesn't smell near as bad as a wet one. No, I live in the woods. A deer will die once in a while. You go, oh shit, deer sitting over there. Yeah, dried out carcass doesn't smell near as bad as a wet one. No, I live in the woods. A deer will die once in a while.

You go, oh, shit, something died in here. It's a deer obviously died. And then a week later, it's gone. That's how it works. You know, people, animals eat at it and take the meat and all that kind of thing. So the sergeant here moves closer to the manure pile. That's something he didn't want to be in his job description

coming out, probably. He's like, I want to get a job where I have to move closer to manure piles if I see them. Things to involve in your murder. So he saw several groups of flies. I assume this would be all flies. Shit. It's a pile of flies to shit. You ever heard that?

That's where they go first. That's where they go first. They saw a group of flies hovering around one particular area in a more concentrated batch. So they landed on a spot where the odor was the strongest. That happened to be where the flies were. So the sergeant found a two foot long stick and started scraping some manure away from the pile. He barely got any of it off when he saw a blood-soaked shirt in the manure pile and what looked like appeared to be a person's arm in the shirt. Golly. Put the stick down and said, oh, okay, calling this one in. I found all I need to find. That's

it. If there's an arm under the shit, that person's not there voluntarily. There's a problem. He calls it in and we'll find out what happens there because it's a goddamn mess well let's find out about the family who lived in this house and figure out what's going on here let's first talk about Delbert Paul Posey P-O-S-E-Y Posey Delbert Paul he goes by Paul for most people here but I like calling him Delbert for some reason just because it's we don't get a calling him Delbert for some reason just because we don't get a lot of Delberts very often. So old Delbert's born in 1970 and here he, back in the day he got married in the mid-80s,

late 80s, I'm sorry, like 88 right after he turned 18, and he married a woman named Carla Brust, which will be later here. Now Carla, they're going to have a baby almost right away in 1989, Delbert and Carla, and they're going to have little Cody Austin Posey they have. He's born- New birth is going to hate ring around the rosy. Oh, he's going to absolutely hate it. A Cody and a Posey. October 9th 1989 he's born here. Now pretty much right away beginning of 1990 Carla and Delbert split up or late 1990. So Cody was about 11 months old when they split up. So he and his mother go to live with

his aunt, his mom's sister, And the Poseys will formally divorce in January of 1992. And they're gonna share custody of Cody. They're gonna have equal custody, the two of them. So they're gonna fight a lot over shit, is what that means. You're gonna do a lot of disagreeing for the next 18 years. For a lot, a lot of years.

Now, Delbert Paul here is not known as a real nice guy to basically anybody. Nobody thinks he's a nice guy. You think maybe he's the problem in the relationship? Little bit. Well, the multiple relationships, as we'll talk about. Now, Jim Forrester is a guy who did some work. At one point, he put a new heater in the house for Paul, Delbert Paul here. Cody was just a baby in diapers. So they're still together. So this is, they're probably 10 months old or 11 months old or something. Jim Forrester is his name. He says about Delbert Paul here, he was a mean, real mean. He was mean,

real mean on his family. Then he says he's in there putting the new heater in and Cody was a baby and Paul told him to move aside. And because he was a baby, he didn't understand to move aside. Babies don't follow instructions real well. They just don't. It's why they don't have jobs most of the time. So this forester said, all of a sudden, Paul just leaped and whipped his belt off and grabbed

that kid by the arm and just went to warping him down across the head and ears and face and neck and back. Hit a baby in the fucking head? In the head with a, whipped a baby in the head with a belt. Wow. He said the kid was just screaming, you know, bloody murder, big wide cowboy belt. He took off his fucking big ranch belt buckle.

Yeah. And beat a baby with it. My Christ. So that's insane. Now this guy's. That guy got a divorce? Weird. Well, and the mom was there.

Oh my God. Carol was there. She pulled Cody away from him, and a short time later is when they broke up So this was I think one of the this is the reason they broke up probably a start of it beating the baby So they left now in 1994 as mom's gonna join the Navy we'll talk about that 1992 is the official divorce. 1994, Carol joins the Navy. Really?

Yeah. I got a kid going on. I got all this. I know what I'll do. I'm joining the Navy, which is the last thing you'd expect. You going back to school? No, I'm joining the Navy. Oh, okay.

She's still like only in her late 20s though, so her mid 20s, like26 or something. So 1995 here, this is Delbert Paul's parents, Jay and Linda Posey, they are shot to death at their ranch just outside of Roswell, which isn't far from here. And what the authorities characterized as a murder-suicide. So, yeah, so that happened. So this family has some dark shit going over it.

And dad and mom having a murder-suicide is starting to explain old Delbert Paul's behavior a little bit. Yeah, yeah, probably grew up in a tumultuous household. I would say so. Getting beat with cowboy belts would be my guess. It's rarely wooing and romance when it ends in that. When, yeah.

It's not romance for 30 years and then he's like, you know what, what a waste. Once the kids moved out, forget about it. They just, they fell apart. Before that, everything was great though. They went to Disneyland every year, it was wonderful. So 1998, Delbert Paul gets remarried here. Delbert Paul Posey. He remarries a woman named Sandy. And now Sandy, they have a very good relationship here. Her name Sandy, she testifies that she would protect Cody from his father later on and during their

marriage. She also says that she saw Paul constantly quote surfing pornography on the internet. I mean, his initials are DP James. That's DPP. Double penis penetration. So yeah, they're getting that. And what she said, and this is, they break up in 98, so he's looking at like early internet porn.

Yeah. Early porn. That's just pixels of pictures. Dude, you had to be really horny to figure out porn by the, you know, before 98. You had to really be like, I want to see some tits now. Bad. And they better be doing some gross shit. Hell yeah.

So she said she didn't like that at all. And they end up getting a divorce because she doesn't like the dynamic in the house. And also, she is worried about, she doesn't like the way he treats his son. So she doesn't want to exactly have more kids with this fucking guy. Sure, sure.

So she, Sandy, the stepmom really loved Cody and she said she cared for him as if he were her own You know she she would throw birthday parties for him and have friends over and stuff But she said that she had to keep Paul from hitting Cody or else Paul would be beating the shit out of Cody constantly She said he would yank him out of the bed. This is we're talking between ages five and nine. So quote, he would yank him out of the bed, the bunk bed on top, yank him onto the floor. And they said, just pull him on the floor. And she said, yes, yes, yes, just slam him down on the floor.

Just yank his ass right out of the top bunk bed to the floor. She said one time she came home from work and walked in on Paul Beating the shit out of Cody with a board with a piece of wood like he's hacksaw Jim Duggan with his fucking kid Yeah, she said I said Paul. That's enough. That's enough, and then he stopped so she saved this kid for Christ's sake They end up getting divorced in 1998, unsurprisingly. That's not hot. You don't wanna suck that guy's dick after you watch him beat a seven-year-old

with a two-by-four, that's weird. Wow. So he ends up though, this guy does not like to be alone, he ends up finding another woman very quickly and getting married that same year, in 98. It must be like a, he must give off like a masculine energy, right? another woman very quickly and getting married that same year in 98. It must be like a, he must give off like a masculine energy, right? Oh yeah.

He's a cowboy. He's a, he's the, he runs a ranch. I mean he is, he's got a big belt buckle and he's got a real masculine swagger. Yeah. He's got all that shit. So if that, if you're turned on by that, this is your guy. Problem is too much swagger. You also beat the shit out of your kids.

That's Yeah, you got a temper this way. Yeah, but he doesn't beat up any of the women which is weird He never beats his wife. He just the only person he beats the shit out of is his little boy. That's it No one else. He's trying to make Cody tough. I think I think that's what he's thinking But he's yeah, it's like later on the shit. he's doing is not for toughness as we'll talk about I mean two by four any piece of wood that's not you're a grown man you don't need a piece of wood use your fucking hand if you're gonna beat a kid open hand that's yeah you know what are you doing to not that you should be the kid but right I mean if you're if you're saying I'm gonna you're determined to beat the shit out of your kid please don't use weapons

is all I'm asking right it's bad enough if you use your hands I mean, if you're saying you're determined to beat the shit out of your kid, please don't use weapons is all I'm asking. It's bad enough if you use your hands. I mean, I got beaten and... Yeah, I grew up in my fucking grandmother's house. She beat me with implements. Yeah, I got beaten harder because I quote unquote made their hand hurt. Because I fucked up and made them beat me. I got beat harder because their hand hurt. I didn't have to worry about that

because it doesn't hurt a slipper or a shoe or a fucking metal spoon to be fucking, it doesn't hurt the person using it to beat you with it. Or they go, this hurts me more than it hurts you. I highly doubt it. Show me the welts on you, motherfucker. Nah, nah, that's the thing. You get foreigners, they don't play that shit.

They don't care. They want you to hurt They go by you son of a bitch as they beat you and then tell you that's what you get It's a different they're not upset up they're not like I don't want to have to do this none of that shit Doesn't hurt me at all. I'm cool Wow, so the woman this guy marries, Paul, her name is, and she, it's so weird, when you look at her name, Allison,

who helps our research a lot, she even said, how is this woman named Tyrone? She's like a red, That's her first name? She's like a, no, that's not her name, but she's like a redheaded, very white, New Mexico ranch lady, and she's like, how the fuck is her name Tyrone?

It's not, it's so easy to misread because your brain doesn't see this as a word. Her name is T-R-Y-O-N-E. Try one? Try one, sure. That's why I said it. Tryoni? Tryone, I guess they might call her.

Try, I'd call her Tryone. Tryone. Yep, so I said it was like Tryone. When I arrived I was like, Tryone? So I looked up another source, I'm like, it's Tryone. That's her fucking name. So Tryone Tryone we'll call her here. She is about 10 years older, by the way, than Paul. Yeah, he likes older ladies, as we'll call her here. She is about 10 years older by the way than Paul.

He likes older ladies as we'll talk about. He's about 10 years older, or she's about 10 years older. She has a daughter as well that she brings into this relationship that's one year younger than Cody. So it might be nice for Cody to have someone around his own age, at least to have around, you know, maybe to talk about beatings with or something, I don't know. Maybe she can explain what he's done wrong. Maybe. The daughter's name is Mary Lee, which is M-I-R-I-L-E-A. Mary Lee. Mary Lee Schmidt. Mary Lee Schmidt. Nobody likes to spell. Yeah. That A makes Mary Lee. Maralia Schmidt, and she, so try one and Maralia here.

Wow, now 1998, during this time, I think this is when, in between the two wives, I believe. I think it's 97 here, a complaint is filed with the Chavez County Sheriff's Department because Cody came home, his mom was home on leave, and saw him and saw he was covered in bruises. Ah, fuck. So she called the cops and they took pictures and they did a hospital exam, but no charges

are ever filed, no nothing ever comes of it. Just pictures are taken, it's on file. I mean, I guess you can't really assert who did it. I mean, Cody could say, but... Yeah. Well, he's only with his dad. I mean, who else is going to beat the shit out of him? All right, you know.

I could say... Dad could say somebody did it at school. I don't know. He saw him. He fell down. He's a boy. He plays rough. He fell off a horse.

You work on a... On a fucking ranch. We work on ranches. They don't work on the Sam Donaldson ranch quite yet. They're doing other shit now. But by April of 2000, Cody's mother makes an agreement in court. They come to a fucking little sit down pact where they come to an agreement where she has full custody of Cody. And Delbert Paul here gives up all parental rights.

He basically said, I have nothing to do with this child anymore. You can have him up all parental rights. He basically said, I have nothing to do with this child anymore, you can have him. All parental rights. She doesn't have to take him to see him anymore. He never has to see his father ever again, basically. He doesn't want to, yeah. I mean that, if beating your child doesn't fuck him up enough,

beat him and then throw them away. I don't want anything to do with it. Poor Cody, man. He was happy because he wasn't liable for child support under this agreement. Is that right? He cuts all ties and she doesn't have to take him to visit him and then he doesn't have to pay child support for Cody. That's how it works.

So it's just like you never existed as his father basically. All he has to remember you by is pictures of bruises. That's it. So Jesus. Yeah. So this he and Cody from what I understand is thrilled with this arrangement. I can't imagine he fucking over the moon happy. Never been like his wounds in a fucking bunk bed anymore. Nope. That's April 2000 mid April 2000April 2000. Now July 13th 2000, just a few short months later, some tragedy strikes here. His mom, Carla, is only 30, okay, and she is in the car with Cody and her new husband, Russell. Russell Brust is his name, B-R-U-S-T.

They're all in the car. They're headed to Washington where Brust was stationed with the Navy because they're both parents both of these two are in the Navy So they're heading there. They're moving there This is fucked up Russell is driving Cody's in the front seat mom's in the back Russell falls asleep at the wheel. Oh Ross Okay, the pickup mom apparently was in the back of the pickup truck, it's a pickup truck. Maybe it's an extended cab?

From when I tell you what happened, you're not gonna think so. That's why I thought that at first too, but I'm like, I think she's in the back of the fucking truck. He fell asleep, the pickup truck flipped and threw Carla a good distance from the vehicle. It's possible.

The other two were in the car still, so I don't know how that little fucking side door would open and she'd clap. It could be a four-door truck. Yeah, that's true. The window down, if she's laid down in the backseat, it could fling ya. That was 99, though, 2000.

That's... I had one. I had the one where you had to open the fucking regular door to get the... Yeah, we had a four-door. Four, I don't know. So either way, I don't know. So either way, I don't know why only the back door would open.

Whatever the thing is. No, no, if the window's down, you can get thrown right the fuck out of there. I guess, yeah. But she may have been in the back. She's thrown out of the car. Cody apparently rushes over to her just in time to watch her die.

Oh, Jesus fucking hell. To watch his mom die before his eyes, which is, you know, that's how Dexter started, you know what I'm saying? Like this is not a good thing to watch somebody die, your mom die in front of your eyes, especially that's your lifeline, you know, away from all the crazy. Is Russ Bruss okay? No, he's dead too. He's dead, oh my god this kid... That's how Batman started too though.

This is fucked up. Yeah, it could go either way. So he's fucking ten. This is crazy. And he, the fucked up part is he goes with his aunt now for a little bit and his aunt, his mom's sister that they had moved in with originally back then, he blames himself for it, Cody. Really?

Why? He, this is the aunt, quote, he looked at me and said, I killed my mom. That's dark, man. That's I killed my mom. I would, I definitely want more explained further. How do you interpret that as doing, unless, unless he walked up on mom not breathing and then just like stomped her head to put her out of her misery he saw and he was like a poor thing and then he covered her mouth and pinched her nose I don't know no he went on to say quote I wanted

to sit in front with my new dad and that's why she's dead oh oh Jesus I'm gonna cry. Let's break down what the most heartbreaking part of this is. I killed my mom, I wanted to sit in front with my new dad and that's why she's dead. What's more heartbreaking? The mom's dead, I feel guilty or I just want to sit in front with my new dad oh my god my heart is broken that's horrible have we ever read no has there ever been more fucking heart breaking sense no because we've never had a ten-year-old say any shit like that before I killed my mom because I wanted to sit in front with my new dad who doesn't beat me. Isn't that great? The one that doesn't beat the shit out of me with pieces of wood. Oh my god, and that's why she's dead.

Oh my god, Cody. So now he's got obviously a history of some serious trauma going on of being beaten from the time he's an infant, and now you add to that a Batman Dexter level of backstory to his parents. A Catholic level of backstory to his parents. Catholic level of guilt multiplied by a hundred. It's Catholicism times Batman divided by Dexter equals Cody. That's what we have now. It's very poor kid. So his mom's funeral comes around a few days later.

This is fucking horrible. horrible um and fucking Paul dad shows up at the funeral completely uninvited obviously with a police officer with him to take possession of his son even though he had agreed to no parental rights the state recognizes he was his dad more than it recognizes this lady's aunt and they say that he has to go with his dad. Who told him? God damn it. That's fucked up.

So after that, the aunt said she had virtually no contact with Cody because Paul wouldn't let her, wouldn't let him talk to her or her family and Cody had a lot of restrictions on him. Letters from family members to Cody were returned. They just returned them. Returned a sender. The aunt said it was control. Paul referred to him as his property.

He said, I own Cody, he's mine, quote unquote. Good Lord. He said that at the funeral service, by the way, with a bunch of mourning. Mourning, and a kid mourning his dead mother, who he thinks he killed. He said, he's my property. So she said that he wouldn't let,

Paul wouldn't let Cody play with toys that the aunt would send him for like Christmas or anything and would not permit him to keep gifts of clothing, because they'd send him clothes and stuff. They were trying to just keep connected to him. The aunt said, quote, he told me one time he didn't, oh, this is about Paul. He told me one time he didn't care if Cody hated him. He was going to make him respect the world he was going to be released into someday. Now, okay. That if you took, if you, if someone said that

and didn't beat the shit out of their kids and abused them you'd go Okay, well, that's you know, I guess that's okay. You don't want your kids to hate you but to say look I don't care if you don't like me. I have to raise you properly is That's what you say to a kid who doesn't want to be raised properly. I get that But back to the world or loathe the world. That's the problem Is it is it what's he gonna respect hate and released into someday sounds like he's Coming out like a like I can kick him out You're like a bull getting released into the ring to fucking go after people or something. It's really weird

Oh, yeah on shoot three man Now and Cody when dad showed up at the funeral to get him Cody was really upset He was didn't want it. This is a cousin said he was upset from the funeral itself. Then it turned from a sad upset to a mad upset. She said quote, meaning Cody, he kept telling us don't let him take me, don't let him take me, he beats me. How does the cop? Thank you you in front of the car the kids

back and the father's going oh he's just being a little pussy blah blah blah the cops like yeah that's how kids are and they fucking take the kid away he beats me he beats me beats me and as we'll talk when we hear some more Sam Donaldson quotes later on a lot of this is because of where in the country this is that's considered just good down home parroting down there, apparently. Boy, boy. Yeah, it's a little interesting. I mean, yes, discipline is one thing.

Beating your kid to the point of fucking bruising, oh, that's crazy. It's fucking crazy. So the aunt here, she talks about the next few years, like we said, of not being able to really stay in contact with Cody and all that kind of thing. She said she mostly lost contact with him after 2000 and said that Cody had occasionally complained that his father beat him and yelled at him and verbally abused him, called him names and all that shit, so she was sad. Now 2001 is when Sam Donaldson hires Paul

to be the ranch caretaker. Okay, so they move out to the Chavez Ranch there then. They all move out there, and this is the four of them. This is Try One, Paul, Mary Leah, and Cody. They're all coming here. And they said that basically everyone around there figured out that Cody wasn't allowed to socialize really with other kids.

Yeah. Wasn't allowed to do anything. He's like Jeremy from the Pearl Jam video. He's like a fucking, most of the year before moving here, he said his parents made him spend most of his days after school in his bedroom. He wasn't allowed to do anything. Now the layout of the ranch, like we said here, Sam Donaldson told everybody about it and said that Paul was the foreman of three ranches located on the property which were

as far as 23 miles apart in some places, like we said. Huge, huge property. So 2004, okay? Four years have gone by since his mom died, three years since they've been living on the ranch, and things are not going well. Now Cody is just finishing, he's 14 years old, he's not quite yet but he will be, or no he's 14 now, he'll be 15 later this year. He just finished the 8th grade at Capitan Municipal School District and how's he been doing? I mean obviously. So one of his teachers for three years, Roman LaRiva, he said that Cody was the top science student in the 6th grade.

Is that right? He's not a dummy at all, Cody. Smart kid. Is that right? He's not a dummy at all Cody. No, they said while being very bright He said he was also quote full of energy Which is not a not a compliment to a child. He's he said he was rambunctious, but never anything mean He's a lot of energy. Okay. I mean that's normal. Yeah, if the lungs are doing your work I mean, whatever the teacher said he never saw physical abuse, but parent-teacher I mean whatever the teacher said he never saw physical abuse but parent-teacher

Conferences he said it became very obvious to him that Cody's parents were constantly coming down on him as he put it Yeah, so he said he goes to school he thrives there because he does aren't there because his dad isn't there. That's exactly it He said even in spite of good grades. They would always find something else They come in for a conference and the teacher would be like, no, he's doing great, blah, blah, blah, and they would find something to yell at him for right there in front of the teacher. He said that Posey, meaning Cody, was interested in sports and also wanted to do

a bunch of academic competitions. Probably just to get him out of the house, extracurriculars. That's what a lot of kids do. A lot of kids just lean into sports and shit shit because that's home sucks so yeah he said that his parents wouldn't allow him to compete in sports or even academic competitions and the teacher said why not he's really smart and they said because he's not towing the line. He's not doing whatever. He's 14.

Fucking ridiculous. Yeah. What's he not doing? He's not contributing enough to his 401k. Our fucking ridiculous. I don't know. Yeah. What's he not doing? He's not contributing enough to his 401k? Right. Like what the fuck do you need to do when you're 14 to toe the line?

That's weird. So this teacher said that he used to tell Posey's parents, meaning Paul and Trione, during conferences about his in-class disruptions, but he said, I quit saying anything because I didn't want to burn him anymore. He stopped telling the parents because he said, I quit saying anything because I didn't wanna burn him anymore. He stopped telling the parents, because he said they come down way too, he wants the parents to go, hey, try to calm down in class, not wait till we get home.

That's not what you wanna hear. It's crazy. They also, we find out that they're much nicer to the daughter. They treat her completely different. What the fuck, man? Completely different. A resident around here named Emily Nutt.

Emily Nutt here, that's the Sunday school teacher when they lived before they moved to the ranch. So this is pre 2001. Said that Paul and Trione would single Cody out for criticism but treated the daughter very warmly. She said they were always loving on her, touching her, hugging her, telling her how smart she was, how beautiful. They never said anything kind to him or even that he was doing well.

These teachers would say they would tell the parents good things about Cody on purpose to try to get them to say something nice to him and they could, no matter what you said, you could say he, he cured cancer and they'd be like, well, he didn't fucking take in the, you know, the horseshit over to the manure pile. So she struck him with her motor vehicle. She had been under the influence that she left him there. In January, 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer officer John O'Keefe.

It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask. Was it a crime of passion? If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling. This was clearly an intentional act. And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia. Or a corrupt police cover-up.

If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover-up to prevent one of their own from going down. Everyone had an opinion. And after the 10-week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision. To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. Law and Crime presents the most in-depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen. You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. I'm Dan Tuberski.

In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York. I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad. I'm like, stop f***ing around. She's like, I can't. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast. Like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls. With a diagnosis the state tried to keep on the down-low. Everybody thought I was holding something back.

Well, you were holding something back intentionally. Yeah, yeah, well, yeah. No, it's hysteria. It's all in your head. It's not physical. You're, oh my gosh, you're exaggerating. Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem? Or is it something else entirely? Something's wrong here. Something's not right. Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem? Or is it something else entirely? Something's wrong here.

Something's not right. LeRoy was the new dateline and everyone was trying to solve the murder. A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios. Hysterical. Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Hysterical Early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It's fucking crazy. She said that Cody excelled in Bible-based competitions like memorizing

scriptural passages and the locations of books in the Bible, which he's just a good student, it sounds like. He's really good. But Paul would not allow Cody to participate in state Bible competitions, even though they were into church She said how does allowing a bad boy to compete in the state Bible competition glorify God? He said that's what that's what Delbert that's what Paul asked her How does allowing a bad kid do this glorify God? He's an embarrassment to God, is what he told this teacher. Which is fucking crazy. That's wild.

So, let's talk about Cowboy now. I didn't even have to tell you he was a cowboy. That's a person? No, no, his name is Slim Britain. B-R-I-T-T-O-N. Slim Britain over here is his name. He's a cowboy who works on the ranch, obviously. Slim.

Now, Slim, he worked on the Donaldson Ranch in 2004. That's a real first name? It's a real name. I don't think it's his real first name, but that's how all anyone knows him as. Even in court, he's called up as Slim Britton. It's gotta be his legal name, then. I think he changed it maybe to that or something.

Or it's New Mexico and they're like, everyone calls him Slim, we callin' him Slim. Like, I don't know. They're beating children with the sticks, James. This is his name. This could be his name. So he said, and this is an, he's an older guy too. So this is an old cowboy.

So you'd expect discipline to be right up this guy's alley and he wouldn't bat an eye at it. But he said he saw Paul throw a heavy rock at Cody one time, saw him wrap the boy's hands with a hay hook for not stacking bales of hay fast enough. Whacked him with a hay hook. A hook. I mean in his hand, not on the side. Hooked him in the hand.

Oh my god. And through the thick glove it didn't go through but it left deep giant bruises and you know hurt him really bad here. He said that was for not stacking bales of hay fast enough. Wow. How fast can a 12 year old stack hay? Really? You know what I mean?

Those shits are so heavy man. He said he would slap the boy with a glove. He'd take his glove off and slap him with it and also just manhandle him when he didn't answer his father with a sir. If he didn't answer with sir he would go over and beat the shit out of him for it. What is this fucking Simon Says? Jesus. It's not the Marine Corps. This isn't Full Metal Jacket. This is a 12 year old. It's different. Removing animal food you son of a bitch. So slim said Cody carries a lot of weight for a kid. He was called on to do a man's job He was supposed he just was supposed to be a full-time ranch hand and do the same job

They did meanwhile he goes to school during the day and he's a young preteen for Christ's sake. So He said though they said well, how come nobody said anything and slim said the West is kind of tight-lipped about things like that You're allowed to beat your kids out here on the ranch. He's tell your friend. He's a dick Yeah, why you beating your kid, especially you're a cowboy be like I will fucking slim I will fucking beat your ass with my belt buckle if you don't stop this shit Touch that kid again, and we're gonna fight but I guess slim works for Paul Paul's technically his boss he hired him So that's probably part but still I'm not gonna stay at a job and watch a kid get beaten all the time It's not part of my job. I'm not doing that. That's crazy

So he said that what he didn't he didn't you know, he said he didn't see everything that happened on the ranch But he said that you know, he said he did see Paul being cruel and angry and abusing his son. He called, he called Cody obedient and battered. He said he, this is fucked up too. He said he rides up to him and hits him whack with the rope just right in the back. You're out of the drive whack right across the back. And they said, this is with a coiled rope.

And he said, yeah, coiled rope. He's beaten him with it, which hurts. That's not good now Slim was fired a few months before July of this year before all the shit went down with Sam Donaldson finding blood But he says he saw trouble between father and son almost every day Always excessively harsh words that you shouldn't say to kids but also beatings often. He said He said I never saw a hand laid on him in love And they said never even an arm around the shoulder. He said never never once It's all bad and mean and you know

Yeah, one of the other ranch hands a guy named Pilo Vasquez Testified about another incident later on with a hay hook in which Paul threatened to cut off his son's balls if he popped the clutch while driving the ranch pickup truck again. I'll castrate you for... He was like 13 at the time too. He shouldn't even be be driving How good were you with three on the tree when you were 13 Jimmy good on that clutch or what no? I don't think I would have been that great either. I remember my finesse of the clutch was it took a while to master Yeah, it's not so good. No. He said he will cut his balls off if he pops the clutch again That's wow. What the fuck is wrong with you rather than going let me teach you how to do that better Slap me back in the seat one more time

I'm gonna slap you and then cut your balls off and the fucked up part is we find out that the sister apparently was in On this too all this shit. She's hitting to not hitting but the sister apparently was asked to keep an eye on Cody and report back any action. She eye on Cody and report back any snitching she snitch and report back any transgressions that Cody does to the parents and then she would get gifts for that rewards for telling on Cody for any and it would be anything not you know not Cody's out there raping a cowboy or something it was mild yeah he would do that she'd be rewarded and given gifts and all that kind of shit so that's who we're dealing with this is

the family when Sam Donaldson walks into the ranch and sees blood everywhere this is the family he's he's looking for yeah and employing so back to July 8th let's go back where we started now and in our little Pulp Fiction adventure here and to Sam Donaldson calling the cops. He said he couldn't reach his Pulposy by phone, so he and his wife drove out to the ranch. Donaldson entered the ranch to discover all the blood, like we said, and he immediately called a friend and law enforcement to come over and check it out. So the deputy sees the blood trails, the broken eyeglasses, follows him out, backhoe, like

we said, bodies out in the manure. Now Sheriff Tom Sullivan said the blood on the porch, blood in the kitchen, blood in the living room, and blood smears in the kitchen, and blood chunks of hair on the porch. Oh boy. Oh Jesus. That, wow. Somebody's head. Someone's head. Wow. Someone's got a piece of their head missing is what that says.

It was a crime scene, a violent crime scene obviously and they said were you thinking that the whole family had been lost and he said well we didn't know, we didn't know how many people even lived there the sheriff said. We had no fucking idea who we were looking for. We just were like holy fuck. More than one person is dead from all this blood. This is too much blood, yeah. So this is now 4.30, goes into the evening time.

It's nighttime, so they bring in shitloads of lights and everything and all this type of thing, and they're working through the night. And that's when they found the backhoe tracks, followed them, went down from the house around some bluffs to an area with the compost pile, and the sheriff said manure pile. And so he just happened to notice there was a lot of flies buzzing around one spot. When we went up there with a stick and just kind of moved some things, we moved

some of the dirt around, moved some of the manure around, and you could see the back of somebody's belt and a pair of Levi's and a shirt with an arm. So they also found what appeared to be blood in the bucket of the backhoe, they said, and had all the backhoe tracks. So there's a lot going on here. Now they check out all the other rooms for signs of trauma and people, anything, and they do find not much, but there's nothing else struggle, anything. And they do find, not much, but there's nothing else in the other rooms,

but they find in one room there's a computer desk and there's an open notebook there next to the keyboard. And the note written on it says, sorry, Coppers, needed the kid to do the dirty work. That's what it said on it. Don't know what that means. Sorry, Coppers, needed the kid to do the dirty work, is what it said on it. Don't know what that means. Sorry, Coppers. Needed the kid to do the dirty work.

Is what it says on there. Okay. Now, the manure pile. Back to this. We'll get into some details here. They did a walk through, like we said, of the house, and they noticed the blood and the disarray of the house. Then they dug through the manure pile to recover the bodies. They were trying to find out how many are even in there.

They know of one as they start their search, they noticed the arm and the upper torso of they notice an arm of one victim in the upper torso of another. So they go, okay, there's at least two as the manure was stripped away. They reported the victims were dumped in there in an erratic commingling. So probably all three of them, all three of them were in in there all just dumped in there at once and then covered up There was no rolled onto each other. Nobody lined them up or anything like that. So They said in all there was three bodies within the manure pile on top was Paul Posey Which I'm not real depressed about I've got to be honest with you. He was probably on the bottom

what in the middle is Marilee, the daughter. She's there too. And on the bottom is Tryone. Wow. She's down there. Their limbs were intertwined in a blanket, they said. Marilee's left cowboy boot had been removed, and it was on top of her body. So it probably fell off, and they just threw it in there.

A driver's license in the wallet of the jeans identified Paul Posey as Paul. The bodies are removed, put in body bags and sealed up, and all that kind of shit here. Because they're taken to the nearest place where you can perform an autopsy for something like this is in Albuquerque, which we told you is hours away from here. Three hours away.

Three hours away. So the autopsies here, let's find out what happened to these people. First is try one here. By the way, this is a fucking weird thing. They didn't take them like in an ambulance or a thing. They had a transport company whose job it is to transport corpses. Cold truck? Yeah, like their job is to pick up a corpse and transport it, which in this area where

it's rural, I guess that would be a lucrative business. Probably happens a lot. Yeah, probably happens a lot. Yeah. So they bring her to, they bring them to a storage facility in Albuquerque. I don't know if it's just like a self storage. I don't know what kind of lock you use for that. But this is air conditioned out front. I guarantee that. I

know it does. So the doctor begins the autopsy by examining the clothing and items found with try one. She had a blue shirt, blue jeans, braided belt and brown boots. Ranch gear, ranch wear. Yeah. Her shirt had been pulled up over her breasts, but they don't think it was in any sexual manner. They think it was just from the dragging is how it went. Her shirt was out. So it pulled up. That happens all the time. Somebody grabbed the boots. Someone pulled her by the legs. Exactly. Other items that arrived with her body were a white metal ring with stones and eyeglasses with one lens missing. Those are the ones I think they found. Now, the examination observed some decomposition because it's like a hundred

something degrees outside. It's mid-July in southern New Mexico. And they've been out there for a few days as we'll talk about in a manure pile. Some decomposition where tissue had softened and there was discoloration as well The doctor said it was hard for him to tell what she had looked like when she was alive because of the decomp and the gunshot Wounds oh my god her skin's already tight going away Especially because it was she was shot as we'll talk about in the head which Makes everything be able to get in there and eat everything yeah more more efficiently The doctor made some incisions, removed the internal organs, and all that kind of shit here.

He was trying to see if he could remove the brain to try to see if he could track the gunshot wounds and see what structures had been damaged. One bullet entered her forehead near the right eye. A bullet, so an actual bullet, not a shotgun. Not a shotgun, a bullet, and fractured. they think it's a 38 by the way, and fractured the back of the skull where it lodged, so all the way through and then cracked the back of the skull but didn't come out, wasn't a through and through.

It stopped. Wow. The second gunshot wound was on the right side of the head in the temple, and there were pellets from snake shot or handgun pellet ammunition in that area as well interesting Weird so because they're like this one of the shots isn't snake shot one of them snake shot So they're like that's sometimes you sometimes you stagger those Yeah, well, we'll find out exactly why we get an explanation on that luckily because otherwise it'd be like why? Because of the disk

Decomposition the doctor couldn't tell the true path of the gunshot wound within the head. The size of the entry wound near the eyebrow was determined to be about half inch in dimension. The right temple wound was about 2 and 1 quarter inches in size, and he removed 34 small pellets from the wounded area from the right temple. When he removed the bullet from the back of the skull,

it was still in one piece. So we know that's a slug. It's interesting. So now they're wondering, two guns, two people, what's the deal here? So now here's Paul. His body was in a similar state of decomp, they said, as his wife. He wore a blue and white button-down shirt,

jeans with a ripped back pocket, hearing aids, and had nine keys on a key ring because of all the ranch stuff he needs keys for. He had a single gunshot wound to his head near the right eye. Wow. Not bad. The bullet, that's one thing about these ranch people, they're good shots. Yeah. Center mass ain't a thing for them. No apparently not. This is all headshots man. Paul saw the single headshot near the right eye. The bullet entered near the eyebrow area and lodged on the left side of the brain. The doctor recovered the bullet from his brain and it matched the one that he found in his

wife's brain. So they're from the same gun. Because of the decomp he couldn't follow the exact path of that bullet either. When he tried to determine the range at which the gun had been fired, he said it was very hard to tell because of the decomp, because the gunpowder residue would decomp off of you, that he said he judged it to be fired at intermediate range. Which sounds like, I have no idea, I'm going to guess somewhere in the middle. Here's a word that means nothing.

Yeah, exactly. Intermediate, somewhere, you know. Somewhere in there. He said there was possible gunshot residue on the bone, which would have meant close range, but because of the decomp, he said he really couldn't tell. A 38 is rarely, I mean, that's not target rounds. You're close with a 38. Yeah, well, this is at least within the realm

of in a room together. Five feet, yeah. You know what I mean? Because it's happened in the house obviously with all the blood happening in the house, so they determine everywhere that house is intermediate. You know what I mean? It's not too far, not too close. So they rule it gunshot wound to the head, homicide obviously.

The last body is that of the daughter, Marilee. She had been wearing a bluish green shirt, bra, denim jeans, tan cowboy boots. There were tears on her shirt in the right shoulder and armpit area. The tears were from an inch to nine inches in length. It would later be determined that these tears and scratches on her, under that,

were caused by a nail sticking out of the porch when she was dragged. Oh shit. The nail caught her shirt in her body and scratched her. Everybody's got a porch with one nail, it's fuckin', you know, you gotta hammer it back in and that's what it is. So when she was dragged across the area,

her shirt snagged, that's what they said. Now there's two gunshot wounds to her head. She got two. Five head shots is what this is. One bullet had entered the front of the head at the right eye, and this mother, someone has aim. He's going wow. And exited the back of her head.

The other had entered at the left jaw area and lodged there. The wound in the jaw area was not fatal and she still could have moved around, they said. So she's still ambulatory. The wound to the eye went through the brain and exited in the middle of the back of the head. That's a fatal shot. So that's a hundred percent death rate on that one. So again, gunshot wounds to the head is her cause of death as well.

So five headshots is what this is. Unbelievable. This is like the mob came this is. Unbelievable. This is like the mob came and wiped them out. This is crazy. So anyway, what they don't find anywhere on this giant 23 mile wide property, we're missing something here, is Cody. Where the fuck is Cody? Yeah, we're missing a member of the family. They look at the pictures and they're like, we got nothing. Where the fuck is Cody? They have we're missing a member of the family. They look at the pictures and they're like, we got nothing, where the fuck is Cody? They have another kid. And Sam Donaldson knew that too.

He's like, there's two kids. And he was like, well, we only found one. So they said that a tip, a anonymous tip, led them to where Cody was. And he was at his friend's house near US 70, just hanging out. He showed up to hang out with his friend. That's all, he pulled up.

How old is he? 15, 14, 14, sorry. He's only 14. He drove the pickup truck over to his dad's house, over to this kid's dad's house, where his friend lived. But this is apparently very normal for young teenagers to drive around this area because ranch kids have to drive that's it you get your balls cut off if you don't pop that if you

don't pop the clutch properly so yeah anyway he's at his friend's house the friend's dad his name is Faustino Salcito and his sons are friends with Cody and he said that Cody stayed with them both Monday and Tuesday night that's the 4th of July and the 5th of July They played basketball They went down by the river and had fun and swam and shot off fireworks and had a great time and The dad here said we didn't suspect nothing because he was all happy. We'd never seen him like that Never seen him happy never seen him happy. Yep. He said that before he was real quiet and drawn away

He talked to you, but he wouldn't carry on a conversation Monday you couldn't keep him quiet He said he then told me these were the two happiest days he's ever had in his life The two happiest days he's ever had in his life. The two happiest days he's ever had in his life and he thanked me repeatedly for letting him stay. Thank you so much. Yeah, that guy thinks he's the fucking dad of the year. I'm the greatest dad ever. What do you want, bottle run? We love black cats? There you go, fucking fire them off. I don't care.

You know, random ass kids coming over here telling me I'm the best dad not even my kids Dogs or burgers one of each no fucking problem. You You got you got it fucker You got a you got a number one dad mugged you get one from a stranger. I did I did Best fuck you. From their fucking friends kids, man. Nobody, me, only me, only Faustino gets that. So they talk to Cody, Cody tells the deputy

that he left home Monday morning, this happened Monday afternoon, and he hasn't been able to contact his family. So I called a couple times, I haven't been able to contact his family. So I called a couple times. I haven't been able to contact them, but I've been having a good time. I figured, fuck it. And if you're 14, you're checking, you're not checking up on adults. You don't care.

They're letting you stay. Great. Roman candles. Fuck it. Yeah. Now the sheriff's deputies begin kind of interrogating him there. And the one guy here, a ranch hand said, or not this guy is a ranch hand,

but the father said, that's when I went, his friend's father said, that's when I went and started asking questions to the sheriff about why and what they're doing. Why doesn't he have a lawyer, he was saying. He is treating him like more of a son than anybody else ever fucking has, besides his own mother and his aunt.

He is the number one dad, he really is. In this guy's life, absolutely. Best dad ever. He said, why doesn't he have a lawyer? Why are they interrogating him without a lawyer? And they just told me he's not being interrogated. Like he doesn't need a lawyer. He's fine.

That's weird. So they took some photos of him at the residence and it was noted that Cody had some burn marks on his left shoulder. He's got a bunch of pretty good-sized burn marks on his left shoulder that looked pretty fresh. Looked no more than a couple days old. Like cigarette burn or just like... No, burns like a something metal and hot was put on him and burned him like that kind of thing. They asked how he got him, how he got the burns and he said that he'd been welding at the ranch and stood up and leaned against hot metal, so he got burned. They said, okay. On closer inspection though, they said that the burn marks, later on they

say, maybe they're older than what we thought they were, but we'll find out they're not. So the father, the friend's father said about Cody, he didn't show no emotion. He kept asking them, what's happening? What's happening? Why are you asking me all these questions? Yeah. Because they didn't say, hey, your parents are dead. Let's talk about it.

He doesn't know? They just came over, started asking him questions. Wow. He said, why are you asking me questions? And the guy said that the father said Cody was all calm going, why are you asking me these questions? And then he finally broke down when the deputy said, we're taking you down to the station to talk to you more. They said he started crying and broke down.

This father went with him to the station, said, I'm going with him. I'm gonna treat him like he's my son here because someone's gotta look out for this kid basically. I'm gonna find this guy and send him a mug. He's fucking great, I really want to. What a guy. Let's at least send him a small town murder t-shirt. What do you say?

And a number one dad mug He said that's when he started crying saying that he knew it was wrong But that the world would be better off without them in this world and he was tired of all this abuse He just started crying and saying this as they're bringing him to the car. Cody was doing that so the father said that Cody told them that that this is what he heard on the way. He that Cody said he was cleaning the corral and his dad didn't like the way he cleaned it. So he smacked him a couple times and told him to go into the house. Cody said at that point, he went got into the barn. He went into his sister's saddle bag, got her 38 caliber pistol and went into the house.

He said that his mom was in there. That's what the dad said. The friend's dad's not his mom, but try one. His mom was in there. That's the one he shot first. Then the dad and the sister came in and he shot them too. That's what he said. He told the cops on the way to the station.

Now the father said also the boy told the deputies his father hit him with a shovel and tried to strangle him over the weekend. And we'll find out one other thing that he says that they did a little later here, which is the weirdest shit of all. Of all this stuff that we've talked about, we haven't touched weird yet, guys.

Oh boy. Haven't touched weird yet, guys. Oh boy. Haven't touched weird yet, everybody. So this guy, he goes down with the station, like we said, and this guy also says the pattern of abuse was well known to his family, his friend's family, and his sons who were friends with him, and to the community as well. Everyone knew that this guy was abusive to his son.

Why didn't anybody go over there and threaten this guy's life? I don't understand. Yeah, Faustino, you're a good dude. Why didn't anybody go go over there threaten this guy's life? I don't understand Faustino you're a good dude get five Cowboys go over there and go we hear you lay another fucking hand on that kid We're gonna they're gonna find you in a manure pile motherfucker. Yeah, we're gonna make it look like an accident, too We know how we know how ranch accidents look and we can cause one Treat them like like good fellas treated the mailman. Yeah, exactly. Turn him around a little bit. Well, yeah, put his head in the oven,

see what he thinks about that. So the two sons said that they recalled many instances when Cody would show up at school with black eyes and other bruises. Oh, for fuck's sake. They said that, they asked the sheriff's deputies, did they ever investigate any of this abuse, and the sheriff said, I can say we did not.

He said if a teacher reported it, we would have done something about it. But nobody reported it. The one instance of abuse was in a different county if we remember that was that was not Lincoln County, different county. So they find a box of Remington 38 caliber shells in the pickup truck that Cody drove over to his friend's house. That's Paul's pickup and they said by the way the Babacco had been returned to his original spot. That's nice. He parked it back where it was. Yeah. They found his bloody clothes on the floor of Cody's bedroom closet. He just put them in his closet. And before he him in his closet.

And before he left the property, he, he kicked the glass on the porch door to make it look like a break in because he didn't know what else to do. Now they sit Cody down and they take him to what's called a safe house, which is a room for interviewing children, which sounds creepy as fuck. We'll take him to the special place. Take that child to that oh nobody will find take the child in that secret room Yeah, yeah, and and two adults are gonna go in there. Okay, good So this is two officers a male officer and a female officer They begin the questioning here and they said okay, do you feel comfortable talking to me and Melissa like we did before?

And he said yes, that's fine. I'll talk He said he was tired of being hit by his father and that his father had hit him constantly for years. He said, I got tired of him hitting me, yelling and screaming at me all the time. He hit me all the time and I couldn't take it anymore. He then said, well, what's he done to you? And he said, well, let's go over the list of what he's done recently. He's choked me until I nearly lost consciousness. I was awakened by a lot of times

by either an electric cattle prod or cups of cold water poured on my face. That's how he woke me up. That's very nice. He said he would punch me in the gut, hit me in the face with the wire end of a fly swatter. So the handle part, that's wire. He would throw hay bales at him and hit him and knock him over if he was doing anything

wrong. Being forced by his father to shoot a puppy. Could this guy get any worse? By the way, he's going to get worse in a minute. But shooting a puppy is like a, that's something you go, what are you going to do now? Kill a puppy? Jesus Christ.

Like how much worse than you? Shoot a puppy given by a friend. The dog had had some kind of injury and the dad made him shoot it rather than take it to the vet. Then being forced to repeat the sixth grade by his parents after they told the teachers the boy was immature the teacher said no No, he's great. He's the top science student we have and they said he's immature. He's doing it again He still made him do sixth grade again. Yeah, sorry still did that still thought it was funny We played dumb and dumber form he laughed like a fucking maniac. He's out

He just kept laughing too immature. He loves Adam Sandler movies He'll do and like like post wedding singer Adam Sandler movies He likes like not even like the you know the good ones from the early days Yeah, he was like really in the clique and then he wanted to go see clique in the theater He wanted to go see the I don't even know the fucking name of it the one with a bunch of couples where they do shit And it's boring. I don't know It's the name of that bullshit Where he bought everybody a car for being in it because it's terrible. Is that what it's called?

That's grown-ups. Fuck which one is it? I know he made like it's grown-ups. He made like multiple movies too. Yeah Couples retreat has been spawned. Yeah, there you go. So being forced to repeat the sixth grade He was he recalls being dragged by a rope behind a horse. What the fuck is that? They used to do that to criminals in the old way in the old West. Around his feet or around his waist? Like how? He doesn't say for making a mistake during ranch work. That's what he said.

That's why he had to muck. God damn it. That's wild. He said, I've lost count of getting punched, slapped, kicked. That was a normal thing around my household. They say he's very polite. He's very matter of fact. He said, I can remember getting hit in practically every part of my body.

Now, he claims that this is the fucked up part. All right. He claims that on July 3rd, the night of July 3rd, his dad called him into his bedroom, into his father's bedroom. Yeah. And he was like, oh boy, what's going on now? What am I gonna get hit for now?

When he walked in there, his stepmother was naked on the bed. And his dad was standing next to the bed. Okay, try one, just lay it out. Cowgirl naked, oh boy. Naked, not even boots, nothing. Not even just naked. Oh naked not even boots nothing Not even just a naked with a belt and a big buckle nothing. She's got nothing on The father said have sex with your stepmother

Okay Then he said I said no, I don't want to have sex with my stepmother Yeah, you know, that's weird He said then his dad burned him with a welding rod in his shoulder and that's where his burns came from. I believe it now. Yeah. He said dad took a welding rod and burned me with it because I wouldn't have sex with my stepmother and then he ran off. He said no, his dad burned him and he ran off the

property. So he just ran as fast as he fucking could and took off out of there because he was bleeding. Then he came back the next morning He stayed out all night. Yeah came back the next morning and was going to just do his ranch work Like he had to do the stalls. Yeah, and he said his dad Slapped him a few times across the face for not cleaning the horse stalls fast enough That's when he said that's enough and walked out walked out of there, walked into the barn, got the 38 and walked into the house. So by the way, he said he replaced the bird shot or the bird shot ammunition, which was

used for killing snakes with bullets before, but he missed one. He must have only done that. So he then went inside the house where his stepmother was lying on the living room couch reading a book. Oh. Yep, he said he shot her in the head twice when he saw her in there. He said he shot her a second time

to make sure she was dead, he said. He didn't know, so he's never done this before. So he's, I don't know. I'm glad I'm bucking stalls. Murder, come on. Once in the front of the head, once in the temple. He said the first shot was actually the snake shot. That's why, so he's lucky he shot her twice

because the first one just went into her temple with the snake shot, then he shot her through the forehead. So Paul, hearing the shots, ran inside with stepdaughter trailing close behind him. Cody sees Paul walk in, one shot, bang, right in the fucking head, puts Paul down. He's a good shot this kid, I'll give him that. Next he pointed the gun, stepfather went down and there's a stepsister standing there. And so he said he shot her in the head for fear that she would turn him in, he said.

I thought she would tell. So then he dragged the bodies out of the house and loaded them in the bucket of the John Deere backhoe, he said. He said he tried to bury them in a nearby plot of land, but he couldn't break through the ground. Because if you know anything about the Southwest, you can't dig. It's impossible. That Kilechi is a motherfucker. Yeah, you can think about it and you think, oh, it's like sand. It's not at all. It's rock fucking hard. If you put a pool in in Arizona, they have to dynamite the the earth I can't just dig it if it's not just Phil. It's a it's a nightmare. It's yeah, it's it's you can't dig on this shit

It's really really hard even with a giant John Deere backhoe. He couldn't dig it up. So he said fuck. What do I do then? So he you know, he did that that didn't work, which is the scratches they found on the ground and the other tracks So then he said he just bury him in a shallow grave in a manure pile. He said after the murders, he changed his clothes, got in his father's truck and went to the store for a can of Sprite. Sprite is a champagne of murder? That's better than having LeBron on your commercial, down in one after a game. Got his dad's brain matter on his hands, just down in a Sprite.

It's a champagne of... Yeah. Of... Well, not even. ... Vigance of child abuse. Celebratory. It's like a recovery aid. Like, oof, I gotta get some electrolytes back in my body.

Gatorade must have been pissed when they heard about this. They were mad. Like, damn it, we're the ones that can, ah, fucking goddamn it, Sprite keeps taking this from us. So they cannot find the gun, by the way. Really? Nope, they said that he drove to a friend's house and he stayed there until he was arrested.

He took a Sprite to his friends and then had the best two days of his life. So he said that he attempted to, he said he didn't know why. He thought he could just dig a hole easy and it didn't work, so that was a big deal. He said that he, Jesus Christ, he also said that he has had had to have sex with his stepmother before. This isn't the first time? He said she would grab my head and put it on her breast is what he tells the cops. That's interesting. That's something. He said that it was just constant. He said his father would

hit him a lot. He said it was two or three times a week he'd be punched or slapped or hit or something. He said but often his stepmother did it too and also she was even meaner with the insults. So he describes one incident in which his father hit him so hard that he knocked him off a chair and left a bruise on his face. Just knocked him down with it. He said that Paul told him to tell his friends that he accidentally hit him while they were playing ball. Tell him we were playing catch out in the yard there and you just lost one in the sun.

He's seen the sand line. Tell him the weapon snapped. You know how it goes. Yeah, you saw, whoa, that New Mexico sun is bright. Boy, I was trying to catch a pop-up, and my dad throws me the best pop-ups. It's an old glove. I had a hat with a salmon on it. I couldn't see it.

You know how it goes. It was, you know how it is. My friend was Mexican. You know how it works. I had a fat friend and a Mexican friend, and I think there's a black kid in there somewhere. I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. I know a black guy.

That's right. I know there isn't one for, I don't know, 700 miles and around us in any direction, but still. We played ball together. He said that- They're down in Dallas. Yeah. He said that his dad threatened to come after him

if he reported him to the authorities. Basically, if you think that hurts, report me to the authorities and I'll show you what really hurts, essentially. God damn it. So he said that about the stuff with his stepmom he said I felt dirty, I felt disgusted. You were raped son. Yeah, you're supposed to. That's what that is. God damn it. Now here is the transcript of some of the interrogation. And interrogation's even a, that's

not even a fair word to put, two adult grown cops in a room with a 14 year old isn't really an interrogation. You know what I mean? It's I mean technically it is but it's It's different a kid doesn't have the same kind of mental capacity and power in this situation The cop said okay, I'm sitting here and I'm watching you Cody I mean you got tears in your are in your eyes, and I need to know why He said you you were talking earlier Cody that you said that it's not worth lying because it will always come back and bite you in the butt, that you get it worse. Am I right?

Isn't that what you said?� And Cody says, �Yeah.� And they said, �All right, Cody, you need to tell me what happened.� And he said, �I got tired of him hitting me, yelling and screaming at me all the time. He hit me all the time. I couldn't take it anymore.� So they so what did you do Cody he said I tried getting rid of him and they said how and he said getting him off the planet because I'd be better off without him here off the planet they said so what did you do Cody and he said I shot him yeah I said with what he said a 38

special they said where's the gun where did you shoot him and he said I shot him. Yeah, I said with what he said a 38 special. They said where's the gun? Where did you shoot him? And he said in the head? Not the question they were asking but okay, they said well, where was he standing? He said he was walking through the door out on the porch and Cody said the kitchen door and They said from outside the house into the house and Cody said yeah,. They said, where'd you get the gun, Cody? It's a ranch, there's guns everywhere, you know what I mean? Welcome to New Mexico, sir.

You got one on your hip. I got one on my hip, you need a surgeon. Go home and look at your six-year-old, they're probably packin'. So he said, Maraleah had it in her saddlebag for shooting snakes. And they said, what? Maraleah had it and he said, in her saddlebag. And they said, in her saddlebag, and he said bag for shooting snakes. And they said, what? Maralee had it and he said in her saddle bag.

And they said in her saddle bag and he said for shooting snakes. I just fucking told you, dummy. Yeah, this is going really well. You guys, I'm impressed. He said, so they go on to ask him, so when he was yelling at you to come in the house, where did you go? Did you go get the gun? He said, yeah, he already hit me before that.

He slapped me. He was like, you're doing it wrong, boy. Here, come in the house while I go put up the tools. Okay, they ask him, okay, so you went and got the gun out of the saddle bag. Where's the gun at now? And he said, in the river. He threw it in the river. One of them.

Yeah. They said, in the river up here? And he said, yeah, not that far. They said, okay, so you shot your dad going into the river. Yeah, one of them. Yep. They said in the river up here, and he said yeah, not that far They said okay, so you shot your dad going into the house uh-huh he says mm-hmm They said was it outside the door. He said yeah He was walking in and you shot him where in the head. I just fucking said look at it They said where he said oh, I was next to the refrigerator. I got in the house before he did it's pretty close range it's like he walks through the door I've seen pictures of the kitchen which I'll post on social media. So basically he stand next to the fridge dad walks and he's only got two feet away when he shoots and just walking right through the door.

So he said I got in the house before he did and they said oh you were in the and Cody interrupted he said I got in before he did because he was out there looking at his truck or something the bottom of his truck They said so you shot him and where in the head did you shoot him? He said I don't remember They said did you need it? Do you need a tissue or something and there's no response and they said okay they said take your time so you shot him and he fell and There's no response and they said what about your time. So you shot him and he fell. And there's no response. And they said, what about your stepmom? And he said, quote, and this is such a kid response, quote, I shot her too, she was mean, she hit me and stuff.

Yeah. And I bet he's shaking his head when they say these things to him. That's not like, there's no audible response, but they go, did you shoot her too? And he's just shaking his head, yeah. This is an audio transcript, so yeah. where did you where was she when you shot her and he said on the couch they said on the couch yeah what about Maralía and they said she was

right behind my dad coming in from the outside no response probably a nod and they said what did you do to her he said shot her too so she wouldn't go tell her nothing. Yeah. Jesus Christ, sounds like a little rascal at the same time he's talking about murdering his whole family. It's very strange. It's a really weird combination. They said then what happened to Cody? And he said, I stole the truck and I left with it. I had to get out of there.

They said, where were they? And he said, I put them in the backhoe and tried to bury them. It didn't work too well. And he said, it put them in the backhoe and tried to bury them. It didn't work too well. And he said, it didn't work too well. And they said, dad, they're out there next to the sand pile I told you about. Sand. Sand pile.

It ain't sand. They said, OK, where did you throw the gun out there? Where did you throw the gun out there? And he said, at the farm. So now the investigators search the family's ranch home, but they do not find any kind of a welding rod that would make those injuries on there. Now, that could be because it doesn't exist, or it could be because a man said, fuck your stepmother, and then when the kid said no, he burned him with a welding rod, and then

the kid ran off. So, he might have went, oh shit, what if he runs off to the cops and said, I have burns on my arm because I won't fuck my stepmother and then the cops come back here. Or or and this may be crazy, but maybe he didn't have a welding rod in his fucking bedroom. Maybe it was a cattle. It could be. It was anything. The thing is, it's a 23-mile ranch.

It could be anywhere on this ranch, but they didn't find that. Yep. They said that Cody said to have burns that would come from such a device, and so that makes no sense. Now, Cody's teacher, now this all comes out in the public, and all these people who, for years and years,

have watched this all happen, now they all have opinions on it, which is hilarious because someone maybe say something. I don't fucking know. Yeah, you don't get to go to the newspaper now and be like, I suspect, I knew for years he was, shut the fuck up then. Now when I tell you all these fucking people, none of these people reported a, not one iota of this to the fucking police before the murders happened so Cody's teacher here this is the one we told you about before Lariva he said

that classmates of Cody's have been telling their parents about all the abuse they knew about since then. Kids are good at keeping secrets that's the thing kids are real good at that shit. How many how many people how many times is there a teenage girl that knows her friends getting molested and nobody else does and shit Like that, you know what I mean? That's they tell their friends and their friends keep it secret That's what they do all the time So he said why the teacher said why didn't this come out last year or months ago when we could have gotten him help? Yeah, well, I don't know. Why didn't anybody say anything about it?

That's something now Cody's aunt the one Coralists who is the one he had lived with and had sent him toys and clothes that were rejected. She said something caused Cody to snap because that's not who he is. She said, you can only take abuse so long. I don't condone what he did, but I don't want to see him go to prison. She said he needs help. He's needed help for a long time. I don't disagree. I don't disagree, but also, why weren't you constantly petitioning the courts

saying I want more custody of this kid because the father's abusive, especially if Cody is saying in public, he beats me, he beats me. Yeah, yeah. I mean, come on. And one day we grow up, and when we are bigger than you,

bad things are gonna happen. Fuck yeah. If there's no solution to this. So we gotta fix this before the kid gets big enough to fight back, because when he does, it's gonna get ugly. Not only to fight back, but a lot of times this will then manifest in hurting people who didn't do shit to him. Right, had nothing to do with this.

This will manifest in hurting other people or being, you know, whatever, being in prison and doing all that shit. So now Cody, life here, they talk about other people, people who worked in the ranch, ranch workers who noticed stuff. One woman, Alvara Larma, said, "'I remember Cody pulled up his sleeve "'and he had burn marks from cigarette marks.'"

Oh, for heaven's sake. "'They were putting out cigarettes on this boy. That's like an old school, like what are they putting cigarettes out on? Nobody actually does that, that's fucking insane. This woman said she saw a lot. She said her husband worked for Paul on the ranch, and she said she was often with both of them translating

since Paul didn't speak Spanish. How do you work in this area not speak any Spanish especially on a ranch? What's wrong with especially oh God the amount of guys that work in this industry that only speak Spanish I mean a lick of English no, that's it So it's you need to learn a little bit of Spanish at least so this woman said and he was violent when he would get mad At one point this woman said she told her husband Something now that makes her feel very bad and gives her chills She said quote this is what she told her husband

I feel that something's gonna happen to that family either Cody's gonna kill Paul or Paul's gonna kill Cody So I feel bad not not saying anything a good good prediction You're better than the cops and the courts and everybody else here police and fucking teachers and how I read you are fucking Not bad singing pretty well Elvira Elvira Elvira now a family friend of theirs named Rosie Aragon said I knew something would happen sooner or later She said that she thought that eventually Cody would run away because of the abuse. She said, Cody's got a good head on his shoulders and I figured he would just get tired of it. She said she remembers one in particular incident here where Cody squatted down in his seat and his stepmother was just saying bad things.

And if Cody doesn't do this, he knows he'll be in a lot of trouble like that kind of thing. He said, she said good grades were especially important. She said that on that ranch, getting a B meant beatings. B stood for beatings. Wow. You got a B, it meant you get your ass kicked. They said, but when he was in school, he could be himself. So she said he was happy during the time he spent in school,

but when he had to go home, he didn't want to go home, which is why he wanted to do extracurriculars, which makes sense. This Aragon said that he didn't want to go home, Posey, because that he wouldn't be able to leave the ranch then. He stuck there. He said classmates all knew that he wasn't allowed to have friends over and he wasn't allowed to go to their homes either. Not allowed to socialize. The control is so that people don't, I mean everybody knows that he's getting beaten.

Why don't you just let him go? Because it feels like they let him go to school because they're obligated to. They have to. But then nothing extra because that's more time that he could tell people what's going on. Everybody already knows DP. Well also he's got to be doing ranch work. He doesn't have time to do academic Olympics because ranch work is here. So

Man, so they said that this is fucking wild man So that she said that he didn't want to go home wasn't allowed to leave the ranch. She said after the shootings though Where'd he go to his friend's house? That's all he ever wanted to do. This is the mother of that family there She said he came to the door and I was like, Cody, what are you doing here? And he gave me the biggest hug ever. He spent the day with his friends, including her son. She said, he told my son he didn't have to hurt anymore because his parents let him hang out with his friends. They're like, how are you here? And he's like, oh, my parents are letting me do this for once. Isn't this great? Now, reporters run into Sam Donaldson.

As everyone he works with is a reporter, so that'll happen. That's pretty easy. Pretty easy. He said he never heard about any abuse or witnessed any abuse or heard anything against the boy. This is on Good Morning America. He said that he described the Poseys as the all-American ranch family. Sam.

Sam Donaldson. Is that hair shellac leaking into your fucking brain or what? Dad's forcing him to fuck his stepmom, Sam. That's not all-American. After a day of ranch work. You know what? That is all-American. That's the sad part.

Work all day on the ranch and fuck your stepmom. That's how we do it here in American. That's the sad part. Work all day on the ranch and fuck your stepmom. That's how we do it here in America. That's what we are. I don't want to be that. That's the front page of Pornhub. I guess you're right. That's what it is. He said the couple were hard workers and the daughter was a real sparkler, he called her. And he said that Cody was quiet and had been respectful to him there I mean or else sir eat Then then he said this is wild Paul was a little hard on his son

But that's the way it was that's the way it is in the southwest You fuck your stepmom if you grow up down here son Wow Man, he said I never saw Paul raise his voice or hand in anger to his son, but he clearly expected a lot of him, a lot from him. I don't know. I'll let the psychiatrist figure it out. Wow.

What about a cigarette? Jesus. You ever see him raise that to him? You saw that? Sand. A welding torch, anything? A shovel? A two by four?

A hay hook, perhaps? Torch anything a shovel a two by four Now Paul's older brother dad's older brother verlin Delbert and verlin these parents named their kids cowboy names Wow He doesn't believe any of this shit He says the abuse never had never any abuse that kid never had a hand laid on him You know what you're talking about the whole town, Verlin. He said it was just an excuse implanted in Cody by his mother, you know, before he watched her die. What? His mother just told him that his dad was real abusive when he was a kid so he thinks

his dad's abusive, but he really wasn't abusive even though he remembers a hundred thousand specific incidents of abuse and can show you marks and scars that are related to them. More like vermin. You are a nightmare, sir. You're a bad uncle. Fuck. Verland said anytime he got a spanking, that was abuse. He was told that was abuse. Every time he got in any trouble, he was disciplined by my brother. His mother's family told him that was abuse. I think we're talking about different things here when you're talking about spankings and fucking beating someone with a rope

and threatening to castrate them. Drug behind a horse, Verlan, are you kidding me? And the uncle, this guy Verlan said, the teachers and the principal, school counselors, no one ever reported it doesn't exist because kids never are abused without anyone knowing. He said, how do you hide it? The kid ought to have enough scars on his face

so it would look like a roadmap. If you listen to Cody, he took as many licks as Muhammad Ali. Oh boy, wow. I really wanna, you know what, I know Verlan's an old cowboy, but I wanna fight him, real bad. I really wanna fight Verlan. I wanna pummel Verlan.

No, I don't think so. Anybody who thinks abusing kids is this. And he's older, that's what I was gonna say too. If his brother was like 35, he's at least 60, I'll take him. I don't care, even if I can't. If I get one good lick in and go, anybody see that, motherfuckers? No, it happened though, didn't it?

I just wanna hit him once so I can ask him if it happened even though no one's around to see it. If a tree falls. What a shitty thing to say. I mean, I understand your family's been hurt and tremendously so, but you can't deny child abuse, man. You just can't do it. Kids got burns. That's what I mean. He's got burns. He's got cigarette burns on him. When he was 12, he's not smoking and putting cigarettes out on himself. He said, goes on to say, but Paul would have given his life for that boy in Maraleah. So I don't know.

And if at some point he wants to talk to me, I hope at some point he wants to, it'll be down the road before I can probably do it. I don't think he wants to talk to you. So the prosecution on this, because they're going to go ahead and arrest Cody, as we'll find out here. They say that apparently Verlin says that Cody made a veiled threat to his dad and step mom one night in the past. He said, Cody got up and said, well, how do I know it's not an intruder?

And how do I know? How do you know I won't shoot you? Because they said they'll be home later. He said, well, how do I know it's not an intruder? And they told him because we're going out. We'll be right back and this went on and on he kept repeating it They said well, how do you know how well I know it's not an intruder and I won't shoot you and that's when that's why They had to lock that's why they had to get a locking gun safe Hmm. Okay. I like I hate the Cody said that cuz he couldn't I mean if they were abusing him and he had that in His pocket to say yeah, he used feels like Cody's been crafting his way out for a while

He could have said he could have just done that whoop thought it was an intruder. You know, it was out here on the ranch You know Horse thieves, you know, you got a handle them I was building a kid, shit, never found this body. So there's a memorial for Maraleah, she has like her own memorial, the parents have one together and it's down the highway from the ranch where she was killed and that's the sad part is she didn't need to be involved in this, you know what I mean? Her biological father Jake, which by the way, this guy is a decent human being. No, he's a decent human being.

Well, you hear a quote from him later. He's a decent person. This guy says, if there was an angel here on earth, I guarantee you she's as close as anybody that I've ever met to it, meaning his daughter. He said, I've got a thousand images in my head just all the time. She was always making something. She could take flowers and make an arrangement that was beautiful and simple. It was like she waved a wand and it was done. She said her daughter loved animals and wanted to be

a veterinarian like every 13 year old girl wants to be a veterinarian. They all do. She might very well do it. She actually was around horses. They have a dog. A lot of kids kill that dream when they hear about what you got to to do But she's done it. She's seen it. He said she had the feeling for the animals. She was a great person She was going to be somebody. I'm sure of it Now another witness comes in here Brian Basham who is try one's brother. Yeah He's he said that during April 2004 He went to on a visit to the ranch. Um, Cody had told him they were talking about stuff. What are you up to?

And he said, I was just on the internet and the guy said, what are you looking up? And he, Cody told him that he was visiting true crime websites and which, I mean, if that was a crime, holy fuck everybody, we're all in trouble here. So he said, looked up the, and he was looking up the case of Lyle and Eric Menendez. The killers obviously from the 1989 Beverly Hills murders that we've talked about on a Patreon episode and everybody kind of knows about, and that he was looking up the Menendez brothers. So the difference is though, the Menendez brothers in addition to saying they were ridding themselves of abuse there's also about 12 million

dollars to sort out with there. These are people who worked for Sam Donaldson so not the same motive and not the same anything here. He didn't go off and fucking go to a Knicks game and sit side court and get on a Mark Jackson hoops card did he? No. I don't think he did. So let's delve into Delbert a little bit here. They take an analysis of his computer from Delbert's office on the ranch and showed that someone had searched out numerous porn websites, including sites focused specifically

on incest. Now, we don't know if that's stepmother porn or like incest, you know what I mean? Because like a stepmother porn is like a 26 year old girl fucking a 25 year old guy and she's like, yeah, your dad's gonna be mad when she finds out, whatever the fuck it is, and that's what it is. But are they looking for actual? Are they doing that, or are they going to some weird website

that's on the dark web that has a little girl being raped by a brother, that's fucked up. Oh yeah, I'm gonna force siblings to fuck each other, or is it some, I don't know, whatever the fuck it is. So we don't know the exact deal of it, and I'm kinda happy we don't have to, I'm happy they didn't list websites that I then had to look up and fucking look through. Thank you.

But it's probably Lisa Ann in her late twenties, fucking a man, 23 and pretending to be your stepson. He's pretending to be 16 and she's pretending to be 31 and that's how it works. So the whole court shit, he goes into, they put him in juvie, they arrest him for the murders, they put him in juvie, and they keep him there for 18 months till the trial is ready to happen. Okay. During that 18 months in juvie, he is involved in 10 fights and is held in the, spends 80

of these days in solitary confinement and isolation That's a lot That's an aggressive kid. That's an agra. Well, I mean if you got or who aren't your dad trying to fuck with you You're not taking that shit from them or not. My dad kids coming in there saying oh you killed three people Let's see how tough you are and that they're fucking with him That too and yeah, it's see how tough you are. And they're fucking with him. That too. And yeah, it's a tough thing. So yeah, he's there.

Staff members who worked with him at the Albuquerque Center for the Juvenile Rehabilitation, whatever the fuck, for five months say that they will testify that he's amenable to treatment, he's cooperative. The fights aren't like a, you know, he's nice to the staff and everything, it's just if somebody fucks them he fights. Experts in child abuse cases have found that once the people that are doing the abusing are out of the way, generally and classically, these children have gone forward and not been bad people. They're not murderers, they're just, once they clear that out they're fine. That's what the defense is trying to find here. His defense lawyer said he's received thousands of letters and emails in support of Cody.

He said, the public in this community and this state and this nation doesn't agree with the prosecutor that Cody is a threat to them. Now trial comes up. First of all, the porn is in. We're going to talk about that. The judge rules. Porn is, the porn is in. We're gonna talk about that. The judge rules, porn is fucking open season on porn. We can talk about, I'm sure they spent days going over exactly which websites he was on and what's on there.

We don't know which person watched that, right? It was his, he's the only one who used the office on that computer. Oh, it's Cody's? No, no, it's Delbert's. Oh, right, right, right, right. It's Paul's. It's Paul's. That's my point, yeah. Yeah, it's on Paul's locked office. He's the only one that uses it. Why is that in? Oh, it's Cody's? No, no, it's Delbert's. Oh, right, right, right, right, right. It's Paul's. That's my point, yeah. Yeah, it's on Paul's locked office.

He's the only one that uses it. Why is that in? Why are we talking about that? Because if he's real into incest, he might want to watch his son fuck his stepmother. Yeah, that's I think what it is. So the judge, that's a leap to let them put that in there, you know what I mean? So they do though, they allow that. This prosecutor really tried to bar evidence about the porn websites, which if Cody had

been looking at them, they would definitely want them in at that point. So they contended that there would be no evidence conclusively showing the boys' parents viewed the websites or that porn would cause someone to engage in incestuous behavior, which that's true. The judge said that the computer evidence suggested that Cody poses that the account basically that what Cody said was not pure fantasy and This shit backs some of that shit up and I'm allowing it in let the jury decide That's what it is. If it's at all relevant you look that's why you have a jury. It's up to them to decide

So the prosecution in their opening here, they said they're going to focus on how the three victims were killed and on his actions after the slayings. They said he stole a pickup truck to dispose of the gun and you know these are all cover-up things. This isn't a salad. Add potato salad. He's they said quote he was cool and callously detached in the manner he covering covered up his crimes. He played basketball. He smoked marijuana with his friends. He went swimming. Not marijuana.

He went swimming. Swimming? You monster! How dare you swim? He generally had the time of his life while his family was rotting in that pile of manure. Man, she said that Posey had, Cody had reloaded the gun after the shootings. He said, do we have any doubt what would have happened if the Donaldsons had come back early? Would he have shot Sam Donaldson and his whole family to death at his ranch house?

I don't think he would have killed Sam. I really don't. I don't think he was killing every motherfucker around. I think he was killing his family. He's going to kill Sam Donaldson. I think he's killing the people that he sees as the source of his pain. And we're not making a judgment of whether that's right or wrong. We're just saying, trying to get an explanation.

And going over this, trying to pick something, a side or not picking a side, because there is no good side here, but going over it, I tried to compare it to other cases we've done. And the first one that popped in my mind was, don't anger the princess in Arkansas, but there was zero abuse or even claim of abuse there. That was literally, I just felt like killing my dad driving away, like that was bonkers.

So there's no- This is a 15 year old who his out 14 at his out is at 18 to be able to get away from all this and at 14 that four years of this abuse that is so 48 months that's forever. He starts high school in the fall so he didn't even start his freshman year yet. You remember how long high school was? Yeah, the first day of high school you're like, oh my god, I have four years of this? This is fucking crazy. Oh, Jesus.

Yeah, they said there was only one reason for Cody to reload that weapon and that was to kill anyone else who came upon that scene or to replace it, whatever. Or, and that's not a bad argument either because he did say he killed that girl to He killed to make her not be able to not talk That's what I have a problem with here with Cody is if he kills mom and dad Yeah, and then says to Marilee or whatever get the fuck out of here right now these fucking motherfuckers

I'm I don't even I'm not I'm mad. He's in court. I'm going yeah We should put their corpses on trial at this point for abusing the kid. But if he doesn't kill her, he doesn't get to smoke weed and swim. He doesn't get to do fireworks. He doesn't get to play basketball. He really doesn't get to have that awesome

Fourth of July weekend that he really want. Onions and mustard. Doesn't get to work on his three pointer. He's not gonna get a dog and a burger. He's not getting any of it. It's all gone. So I don't like that's the thing is even if she's an asshole and spies on she's 13 years old, she's doing what her parents tell her and praise her for. She doesn't have the moral at 13. You don't have the moral judgment to go. It's wrong for me to do this. You're just a kid being rewarded by your parents and you don't even do this

is your step brother. You're not even related. you know, and she sees how he's treated. And if I don't tell them, they're going to do that to me. Yep. That's exactly what it is. Like that's the action. Action and reaction as a child is everything that you're that you're built on. If you see the reaction to an action, you're not going to do that action if it's fucking beaten. And if someone tells tells you would you rather have him get beat up all the time or you you'll go We'll beat the shit out of him. I don't fucking want to get beat up. This is crazy Would you rather get beaten or do you want a Capri Sun? Exactly, they're amazing. Do you want me to start looking for your car when you're 16 now, even though you're 13, which one?

So the defense in his opening, the argument here, Gary Mitchell's his name, the defense attorney, he argued that Cody killed his family members because they acted as a unit, including his spying step-sister, who would then tell the parents who then beat the shit out of him. So the way he looked on it,

she was helping heap on physical and emotional abuse over several years. Like this isn't one incident. This is every day for years. He said that the accounts of longstanding abuse were corroborated by multiple witnesses. He said good people, hardworking people. I don't know why that would matter anymore if they've watched abuse or not, but that's a you have to show that you're a good, hardworking person in America before anyone will take you

seriously. Yeah. You're much less, much more dishonest if you're not hard working. And they were deemed factors in the boy's state of mind by two psychologists, he said, which we'll talk to. The defense attorney repeats a litany of abuses that Cody and others will say they'll testify to, and he says, how much do we ask of a child? Not a single human being should have to tolerate that after he describes everything. They also showed the jury photographs of three burns here that he had.

I'll show you the picture too. Photographs of three burns and that were said happened on the night of July 4th in an attempt to force him to have sex with his naked stepmother. He said, in the end, ladies and gentlemen, we ask how much do we ask of a child? How much do we demand he tolerate? And do we allow him to fight back? He said he endured a difficult life of traumatic events that left him suffering from depression, PTSD, and we just find out that just a couple months before this happened, Cody started taking antidepressants as well, which we absolutely know for a fact can, especially in teenagers,

bring about violent behavior if it's not the right medication or the right dosage. So this has happened a lot. So that's another thing to throw in the mix now. Did that have anything to do with this? So which one was it? We don't know. We just know is anti-deprived. But if there's a bunch, they all have their all different ones. You know, they all have their all different side effects. Now here comes Verlin again. Oh god, this guy again. It's exhausting. Verlin testifies for the prosecution. He says he never heard his brother express hate for Cody or saw him physically abuse

the boy. Okay, one has nothing to do with the other, but go on. Nope, nope. You can definitely express it. I hate that little bastard. Well, don't beat him, please. A lot of people abuse the fuck out of their children and they say they do it out of love. You don't know what you're talking about, Verlin. No, which is interesting because then there's like people

like you who will tell me I hate my son but you won't beat him. You won't tell him you hate him either. You'll just tell me I hate this son of a bitch. You don't mean it. You're just venting. But you said it so many times. I get it. He's a teenager. That's what happened. You love him. You don't hate him five minutes later but when you come out from him going, I don't want to do that, then you get on the phone with me, you're like, I hate that son of a bitch. I swear to God, Jesus Christ. And then you're laughing to him and it's later. You're not like, I'm going to go get a welding rod and burn him. I would never. I'm going to put my black and mild out on his arm. I don't think you say that.

There's parenting of like beating and like, you got to leave the door open for the thought that you may, you know what I mean? But don't fucking do it. That's the thing. You got to be like, oh, I wouldn't want to have some posture. Talk to your one. I want him to kick my ass. Yeah.

Jesus, dad's fucking crazy. Sometimes. Yeah, Jesus, man. He's big and angry and he just, every once in a while have a special wall in like a garage that's just made to punch holes through, put no studs in it, just drywall and just fucking raw. And the kid will be like, Jesus, Dad's a monster. Just load up some anger so they're like, fuck, he's so little and I think I could take him, but I don't think I can take him. I don't think I could take him. Stage yourself fighting like a dead bear but pretend it's alive like Jesus dad killed that bear. Just drag one home one day. Verland said things weren't always good he said of his brother's relationship with Cody, he said, there were hard times and good times, that's just life. Well, that's true.

Now, his ex-stepmother is going to testify. Oh? Oh yeah. This is Sandy. Oh, the lady that saw shit. Yes. She has asked, did Paul ever hit you? And she said, no.

They said never. And she said never. They said, so we're supposed to believe now that this man is some sort of controlling, abusive, violent monster that he beat his son so badly that he would somehow be forced to murder, but he never hit you. And she said, no, he never laid a hand on me. Yeah, didn't hit the other one either or the daughter. Focuses it all on Cody.

That's it. I feel like, I don't know what his dad did to him But I feel like it was probably fucking brutal And that goes for Berlin too. Yeah. Yeah, they're cowboys. They figure it's you don't you earn being a cowboy You don't just fucking Jump in these fucking saddles with your spurs on and you're a cow You got to get beat up your whole life to be able to do this It's a it's a right of passage The job beats you enough though, I think. That's a physically demanding job.

You don't need to be punched in the face also. Now the defense is going to call 14 witnesses to the abuse, which is a lot. Never happened. Never. Never not once. 14 people. All decent people. None of these are like, oh this guy, we had to get him out of prison for this.

These are like the teacher and some friend of a friend, friend of one of his, parent of one of his friends. 14 people guilt-riddled that wish they'd said something. Yep, and they all said that they think the boy snapped after enduring years of abuse. That's what all the people said. Several witnesses testified that he had become what they've watched Cody become more tense and withdrawn when his father would come around.

He would change his whole entire thing would change. Many of his teachers, classmates and fellow ranch hands from the home in Hondo served as defense witnesses corroborated the claim that the Poseys abused their son with shovels, lariats, rocks, hay hooks, and other quote, implements of ranch life, as well as just plain fists and demeaning words and cigarettes. So every day, slim Britain takes the stand. It's great too. There's this picture of slim.

He's in court. They got him out of the witness stand He's standing next to the witness stand Demonstrating what he did with the hook so it's slim in cowboy gear in court with his arm extended with the hook coming out of it So it looks like he's attacking a lawyer. It's amazing So he testifies about that and abuse and threats of castration and all that kind of shit. Then Cody testifies. They gotta put him on the stand.

They gotta put him on the stand and have him look like a child who has been beaten. Now he's 16 at this point, by the way, because 18 months have gone by. And two years in the joint, putting up with all kinds of shit. This is a hardened kid now. Now he's, yeah, he's been through so much in his life between tragedy and abuse and everything else and what he did in the murders and everything else. No, they said he took the witness stand to tell the jurors.

He told a dramatic series of stories about a life of persistent physical abuse and verbal belittlement by his father and stepmother. He talked about his mother's funeral and other people had talked about this too, where his dad showed up at the church with a cop and argued with his aunt demanding to take custody of the boy. Cody testified that he told the officer, he said, I said it to the officer. He said, I said, quote, I don't want to go back with my father because he's abusive and he beats me. And the cop said, well, that's just, that don't want to go back with my father because he's abusive and he beats me.

And the cop said, well, that's just, that's up to your old man, buddy, and moved him along. He told the police officer that and he did nothing. A cop said you don't know what abuse is, get in the truck. Yep. Cody said the officer gave him his card and told him to call him in the event of abuse.

Which he's not gonna do because he's terrified of his father. Well done, officer. Good job. Excellent. Yeah, that's terrific. That's how you go over to a domestic violence situation. He beats me all the time.

Well, here's my card. If he kicks your ass again, give me a call. No, that's not what we're doing. So he said, quote, this is Cody, quote, I wanted a family. I've seen families on TV. Oh, Jesus Christ. That might be sadder than, yeah, what I wanted to sit in the front with my new dad. That might be even so I've seen families on TV.

This kid's an orphan with a father. That's crazy. Fucking a he said that he'd seen him on TV. He said I wanted to be the kid that my dad said, look, that's my kid. I wanted to be appreciated. I wanted to be liked and loved. That's all I was wanting. He said though, he was slapped or punched two to three times a week, usually by his father, but often by his stepmother. And this was met. This was also teamed with regularly demeaning insults, either with the beating or just on its own. Who knows?

He said, I wanted to love him, meaning his father, and I wanted him to love me back, but it was hard to please him. There really was no pleasing him. Man, he testified that after a final argument with the father outside the home, and he testifies that they tried to have him have sex with the stepmom and all that. He says after the final argument with his father outside the home, he went inside, shot his stepmother as she lay on the couch, his father rushed in to the sound of the gunshots, shot his father, shot his stepsister, and he had hidden behind a refrigerator.

He stood, if you see it, the fridge is right next to the door. Yeah, so he's sitting right next to it. He stood in front of the fridge so they can't see when you come in the door and then when they walked in front of the fridge, he's standing there with a gun and shot him. That's how it worked. That's how he did it. Shot them in the head. So they bring in defense psychologists and psychiatrists here.

A psychologist testified that Cody's ability to reason and control himself had been diminished by anger and fear when he killed his family. Psychologist Susan Cave said here, she testified that at the time of the killings, he suffered from chronic depression, PTSD, and had been physically and sexually abused by his father and stepmother. He got no counseling after watching his mom die. In 2000, this is not like it happened in 1960. I could see that. His dad just gave him pills?

Four or five years later, he got pills. Four years later. So nothing though. No, he didn't have like counseling or anything like that. He testified, you know, they talked about him having, trying to be forced to have sex with his stepmother and they said that this attempted sexual assault, then getting slapped by his father caused an up swell or an upwelling of extreme emotions and in Cody and such as fear and anger that overwhelmed his self-control. The psychologist said, I think he was overwhelmed by emotion and felt he was in imminent danger, which doesn't mean it would happen in the next 60 seconds, but it could happen at any time.

That's true. His life could be in danger. That's a thing. He has as much fucking anxiety as a 36-year-old that's, you know, that's got bills and like a divorce and child support to pay and a failing business, right? And I'm fucking failing restaurant or something. They wanted Fucking a that we need a new roof on the house. It never ends It never had the disposal just went out. Oh my god Jesus I hope something's clogged in there

For fuck's sake. And I've got to put it in now, too. That's half my Saturday. Yeah, $300, and then I'm going to pay the labor? No. Fuck no. No. No.

Doing it myself. Throw my shoulder out trying to hold it up and spin that thing? God damn it. God damn it. So, under cross-examination with a psychologist, a prosecutor asked, and the psychologist acknowledged that she was not saying Posey, that Cody had lost his ability to form specific intent to kill his family.

That's not what I said. I said that he snapped and it happened. Now the prosecution in their closing, they told the jurors that Cody, who has several times lowered his head at the defense table because he's ashamed. They said, look at him over there. They said he deliberately, brutally and callously killed his three family members, used a backhoe to bury their bodies near a manure pile under

under poop. And then took steps such as breaking a kitchen window and writing a fake note. That's where the note came from. Sorry, Coppers, that was from him, to deflect suspicion from himself. She then said, having completed his work for the day, he drove to the Hondo store and bought a Sprite. And since that day, Cody Posey and his defense team have tried to create a tale of abuse to pile more manure on the bodies of his family. You know what manure is, James?

That's bullshit. He's piling shit on them. Yep. Bunch of bullshit. To negate any of the responsibility he might have to take for his own actions. They asked the jurors to find him guilty of first degree murder in the shooting deaths

of his father, brother, and stepsister. Now the jury instructions, what'd I say? Father, stepmother, and stepsister. Now the jury instructions, what I say, father, stepmother and step-sister. Now the jury instructions, this is what they have to choose from. They can find him guilty of voluntary manslaughter if they conclude that he did not act in self-defense but did act as a result of sufficient provocation. That sounds about right here for me. They also can find him, he acted in self-defense, if it concludes that there was an appearance

of imminent danger or death or great bodily harm because of abuse and he was in fear of them and that harm, or they can find him guilty of first degree murder. So the verdict comes in. Is it three counts? It's, there's three and then there's other ones too, tampering with evidence, there's a bunch of stuff. But it's definitely three counts of deaths's there's three and then there's other ones too, tampering with evidence. There's a bunch of stuff. But it's definitely three counts. It's for each

body. Yeah, because they're going to get different. He's going to get different results for each person by the way. Verdict comes in seven women and five men in the jury. They deliberate for 12 hours, which seems like you need more time to talk about that. Seems like this is like we got a lot to sort out here. Holy shit. Especially because there's three different verdicts that you can come to and all this shit with the different people. And they come back into court. He is found guilty of first degree murder in the death of his stepsister.

First degree murder. There's no reason why she should have died. That makes sense to me second degree murder in the death of his stepmother and Then voluntary manslaughter in the death of his father. So they believed the abuse. Yeah, they do but not enough Yeah, okay He was also found guilty of four and you find out why they came to that because it doesn't make a lot of sense It does when you hear about it

So they also find him guilty on four counts of evidence tampering that stemmed from his use of the backhoe to bury the bodies and Throwing the guy it's one for each body and then the gun in the river I don't know if you've heard James, but Honda was deep for it's deep Yes, so he could face sentences of three years each for evidence tampering on top of all the other shit now. When this verdict comes in, his aunt who tried to protect him and do all that, a lot of his family,

they break down when they find out that they found guilty. They're crying, They're sobbing She has to be taken out of the courtroom on a stretcher on a stretcher on a stretcher. She like passed out from Lack of breath from crying and shit. She lost her mind. Man. Keep it together Lost her fucking shit. Not even her kid. So At least one juror has said the verdict was a compromise It's a compromise verdict. Somebody wanted him fucking taken apart. Yep.

And somebody wanted him let go. And they said, let's meet in the middle, basically. They said that they recognize longstanding child abuse that the defense contended provoked the killings and the jury's belief that the death of the daughter was avoidable. Like if they said basically, if you just killed the two parents, we're voluntary manslaughter and on both of you you're fine, but you killed her, so not cool. Now the reactions of this, this is Ellen who is, oh this is the mother of Cody's dead stepfather. So his step, his former step-grandmother.

The one that he wants. Russell's mom. His new dad. My new dad. Oh, Russ Brust. Oh, god damn it. Russ Brust. She said that, quote, they're wrong, meaning the jury.

She said, it'll be appealed and we'll be back. We'll continue to love Cody and believe in him. We're not going to lose our faith in him. She's not even related to this kid anymore. No kidding. But they feel something for him because of what he's been through, and they knew what he'd been through. So if you get this kid into your family,

and they're like, he's been abused and all that, you're going to be like, oh, well, we'll keep an extra tight. We'll keep a watch on him and a bubble around him you know, verlin on the other hand, he thought that the verdict was a compromise, but he was pleased that the nephew would be locked up. He said one lifetime in prison is a pretty small debt for three. That's what he said. Verlin's as a hard man. Hold his fucking blood.

Feel sorry for any of his children. Fuck, to deal with him every day? Fuck. He got kicked in the balls by a mule and didn't even react. He just kept moving. That's a hard man. Cody's lawyer, Gary Mitchell, said he became emotional several times during the trouble when speaking of the ordeals he believed Cody had endured and said that Cody was unprepared

for this verdict. He said, children never expect horrible things to happen. He thinks there's some sort of sense of justice in the world. You're 14, you feel like, yeah, nothing bad could happen. Good will always prevail. He said, we put the blame on a 14-year-old for the sins and omissions of the adults.

This could have been prevented if those adults who stood by came forward, yet we expect him to act with greater courage than them at 14. That's fair. Also, we don't take the word of a 14-year-old because sometimes they're manipulative little shits and they just don't want to eat fucking Brussels sprouts and they're going to say their parents abuse them. They don't want their fucking, no.

They want their poop to smell vegan and then they don't want it anymore. That's what happens. So, um, he said that he wrapped it. He like hugged him after the verdict came in the lawyer and he said, I just held him like I would hold my own son. That boy never had a chance. That's in life. I think there it is. That's, I know to sum it up fast. That's it. You never had a chance. Now the sentencing comes around. The problem is since he was 14 when this happened he could be sentenced as a juvenile Yeah, or he can be sentenced as an adult. Okay, and that's the interesting part

The prosecutors say they definitely want him to be sentenced as an adult here That would mean that he would spend at minimum 47 years in prison before he's eligible for parole 47 years in prison before he's eligible for parole. That's just on the first two counts. Then there's the manslaughter and the tampering with evidence. So he could be in prison for upwards of 50 years. He could be 68 years old before he gets a chance at parole, essentially, which is crazy. If they choose to sentence him that this is up to the judge by the way yeah if the judge chooses chooses to sentence him as a juvenile he can only be held till he's

21 and to sentence him as a juvenile the court must conclude that Cody is amenable to rehabilitation including psychiatric care and that such treatment is available as well now those ten are gonna come back to haunt him, aren't they? Well they also said the 3 months and 14 days short, when he did this he was 3 months and 14 days short of being 15 years old. Had he been 15 the judge had been required by state law to impose an adult sentence on him for first degree murder. Which is crazy to make a law.

A 15 year old is an adult no matter what if this happens but nothing else under the law and no other way shape or form they could show they have a hundred eighty IQ no not allowed to vote drive fucking drink buy a lotto ticket join the army enter into a contract none of that shit but you can definitely fucking pose death to life yeah you understand the rest of your life only in that respect and no other one so the family Family members and other supporters people didn't even know Cody have a big rally outside of a hundred people out there

They have signs saying free Cody and all this shit. It's a big thing They parade in front of the courthouse, then they hold a candlelight vigil asking that he be sentenced as a juvenile. They place two dozen signs in front of the courthouse, pray for Cody, justice for Cody. People came all the way from Hawaii, said aloha from Hawaii, justice for Cody. People came from everywhere. His aunt, Coralice, is kind of the leader of all this. everywhere. His aunt, Coralys, is kind of the leader of all this. She said she's spoken to Cody almost every night by telephone. She said he's scared but positive. He's afraid to get up and speak in front of the judge. He's afraid it won't be perfect. Oh. Luckily this guy won't hit you in the balls with a

fucking knotted rope if you fuck up. Don't worry there's no cattle prod coming. Nothing. So during sentencing, the prosecution witness is a psychologist named Juan Sosa. He testifies that he does not believe that Cody will be amenable to treatment. He says particularly because of the evidence of past abuse. So they say there's no past abuse, convict him of first degree murder. Then in sentencing they go, well, you can't fix him because he's so abused that's their case that's their fucking which I'm whatever but it's just a lot I hate illogical and you don't say one thing another logical don't be a hypocrite no matter what it's fucking stupid so they said that yeah under the

questioning by the prosecution the psychologist said that Cody exhibited a number of psychopathic traits, including emotional distance, grandiose thoughts about himself, impersonal sexual contacts, lying and manipulative behavior. He said there's no cure or there's no treatment that will cure or solve his behavior. Oh boy. Throw him away. 16. So under cross-examination he acknowledged that analytical tests such as the one administered to Cody do not when given to adolescents necessarily

predict psychopathic behaviors in those people as they do in adults because they're not formed yet, not fully formed. He said that Mitchell said that he will show this is the defense attorney he will show that abused children who have killed their parents do not necessarily go on to commit acts against others. Two more prosecution witnesses, clinical psychologist Susan Cave, or they had more than clinical psychologist Susan Cave for the defense, said that no academic studies show the psychopathy checklist administered to the boy can predict whether juveniles will end up being psychopaths as adults. That's not, it's not a fucking crystal ball

Yeah, you can tell whether an adult is a psychopath not whether someone will become one He said these are teenagers. They're growing and constantly changing right? Yeah, talk to a kid when they're 14 and 16 They're different human being completely fucking fucking monster I'm still not great but back then Jesus Christ. I was a monster from 14 to 16 but a different kind of monster at 16 than 14. Yeah. That's the thing. Victim impact statements come up now. Oh boy. Here we go. Guess who's first up on that stand. Let us hear it. Verlin is first in line here and he told both Cody on the court that he believed that the boy killed his younger stepsister so she would not be able to refute the abuse allegations that were key to his defense.

Wow, he's really great. Cody's diabolical, he's saying. He said, I cannot believe the amount of hate and evil can exist in one young man. He said, your honor, I believe that anyone that can kill his entire family and bury them in a manure pile is certainly capable of doing all sorts of heinous crimes against a perfect stranger. Therefore, I believe society should be protected from a cold-blooded murderer like Cody Posey.

That cow shit pile really stuck in his craw. That was the one, man. If he threw him in the river, they would have been fine. These people would have thought it was fine. They wouldn't have had a talking point. That insult is too much for him to bear. Man. Verland's wife Shonda said she asked God to shine his light

on all the lies about the abuse told by the boy. How dare you bring God into this shit. You fucking twat. I don't like this at all. And his defense attorney and witnesses. I asked that's such a fucking annoying. I asked God to show, since you're such a fucking piece of shit, I asked God to come fix you. You pompous twat. Okay, sorry. Where was that white man? Right. Um, now, uh, okay, sorry. Where was that white man? I hate when people say that. Right? Now Tryon, her father, Tryon's father, Pat,

called the boy a time bomb waiting to go off. He said, Cody. Kids are not just time bombs waiting to go off. They are created to be that way. And if that's the case, then you can't feel, you can't. You know how you make one? Exactly how we just told you this whole story. That's how you do it. Force him to fuck his stepmom. He'll be a lunatic. He said, Cody Posey is a deliberate killer, murderer of the first degree. Cody Posey will

kill again if it suits his purpose. The killing of the members of his family did not end Cody's tendency to use force to get his way if other people's oppose his interest. So meanwhile, like we said, here his aunt testifies for him, Coralus, says, Cody is not a throwaway penny, your honor. He's salvageable. You put him in prison and, your honor, all you're doing is allowing the monsters to take over where the other monsters left off Yeah, yeah, that's it The thing about this though, too is like saying that he create that he searched the internet for like cases like this the He wouldn't have done it if he would have seen what happened to the fucking the Menendez brothers even saying that they're still in prison

There's still prison and today still work didn't work didn't go I mean the they had a mistrial but then it they ended up going to prison and in 2004 they were still in prison. They're still in prison and today, still in prison. Didn't work. Didn't work. Didn't go. I mean, they had a mistrial, but then they ended up going to prison. And in 2004, they were still in prison. Cody apologizes and pleads with the judge for an opportunity to better himself and others. He says, ever since the day of July 5th, 2004, I've been haunted by the actions that I took. He said, every day I regret what I did. I know that it wasn't right.

He said he acknowledged that it's been difficult to express his emotions, which seeing your mom die in front of you might do that also. I mean, there's a lot of things that happened. Yeah, he said treatment he's received at the state-run facility in Albuquerque has helped him learn how to handle himself. He says he feels he can still learn more

if he gets the opportunity. He said his other goals include graduating from high school, studying computer science at college and earning a law degree to help other abused children. He said, I want to help build a road that they can follow and I'll walk down that road with them. I want to help people. And he also, he also said that he wants to continue psychiatric treatment to understand myself better and work on my anger management problems and eventually I'd like to go to college. He said I want to work on myself and my problem.

I want to better myself and I want to show people who have little faith in me that I can get better. I can tell you right now I will never kill again. I'm confident that I can be a model, a and model citizen The prosecutor argued that he's a psychopath He has a psychopathic traits is a terrible candidate for rehabilitation and would pose a community a danger to the community Forever if he's released after a few years. He said your honor. There are unfortunately some kids We just can't fix and this is one of them and points at him unfortunately some kids we just can't fix and this is one of them and points at him.

He, she said she stopped short of labeling him a psychopath only because that that title clinically only goes to people who are 18 and older. So otherwise he'd be one. So she just said psychopathic traits. She said that this youth has already committed the worst possible behavior that we can think of to use to predict future behavior. She said he's dangerous as long as he's capable of picking up a gun and shooting someone. Wow. The defense said, I mean, Jesus Christ, we have all of these fucking pages and hundreds of pages of petitions.

Of people that don't want this kid to be sent away. He said that seven of the letters are from jurors from the trial. Wow. The jurors from his trial. Seven of a dozen. Unbelievable. Wrote, took their time to write letters.

One juror, Diane Knox wrote, I do not understand why it is felt that due to the degree of the charge as a child is any less of a child. This is the problem I have with the whole sentencing youth as adults thing. Degree is capable of changing neither a child's age nor their lack of foresight and emotional maturity at the time of the crime. Just because you do something insanely evil, it doesn't mean that you know you have more knowledge than any

other kid about the future or anything else. It's crazy. So the judge says here, the weight of the evidence led him to conclude that Cody did suffer from PTSD and depression, both treatable conditions at time of the killings. He said, additionally, there is evidence that the situational nature of the violence makes it less likely that he would pose a future, uh, future danger to the public. You, sir, may fuck off juvenile sentenced as he'll be out when he's 21. Okay. Sentenced as a juvenile for everything. That's great. I'm shocked too. Yeah? I'm shocked at that, yeah. I don't even know what to say.

I mean, Cody must have shat his pants. That's right, yeah. He was like, oh god. And the judge went on to say, if the legislature wants adult sentences for every 14-year-old convicted of first degree murder, they can change the law. That's what I said. Make an adult 14 now then and then let them drive and fucking drive her and then go, oh wow, that's stupid, they're not adults.

And then you go back. Otherwise I'm gonna keep sentencing like this because this is the guidelines. Also, Cody, please don't fucking make fools of us. Don't fuck this up. Don't fuck. He said, but the children's code is now written and it starts out with the assumption

that children who commit crimes, even very serious crimes, should be treated differently than adults who commit those crimes. His side of the courtroom broke into applause and everybody was saying thank you. They took him out of the courtroom and he said thank you to everybody. He waved. Now, his defense attorney said, his defense attorney Gary Mitchell said Cody told him, don't worry Mr. Mitchell, I'm not going to disappoint anyone

He said that don't worry. I won't fuck those. Yeah And Mitchell said all we ever wanted for him was to remain in the children's system and get help now He gets that help He said he couldn't recall another case in New Mexico in which a judge gave a juvenile convicted of first-degree murder a juvenile Rather than an adult. So it's always an adult sentence. I'm lucky here. So the judge believes it too. Yeah. And the county sheriff, Tom Sullivan, he is the sheriff of Lincoln County at the time,

just so everyone knows exactly who he is in case you want to call him an asshole. He said that this sentence, quote, sends a message to the children of Lincoln County that you can murder your parents and you can shoot your sister in the eye if she tattles on you. No matter how serious the crime, as long as you're a juvenile, you'll never go to prison. No sir, what it does is it sends a message to the parents of Lincoln County, don't fuck with your kids because if they murdered you, they're out when they're 21. So be a fucking good dad, for Christ's sake. Everyone be cool. You don't beat them. They don't murder you everybody's happy at that point Unbelievable. What a stupid fucking view to have that's a man that lived a fucking nice childhood. That's what it is

That's what he doesn't know any better now His step sister's father. Yeah, okay the girl he killed's biological father said quote He's a good kid. They pushed him too far. Oh jake You're such an angel. They shot his this man's literally a fucking anyone who can take all that and and still taking facts and other You know anything on the side other factors and and put him in there. That's really a good person. He said What we wanted for c Cody was a chance, a chance to grow up, to be someone. Judge Counts gave him that chance.

That's incredible. Jake knows too, then. Jake's very aware of what happened. What a fucking good person he is, man. Honestly, that's a really decent human being that can forgive like that. So Cody's dad's brother here, this is Verlin, again. His uncle. He maintained that the stories of abuse were lies His dad's brother here, this is Verlin, again.

He maintained that the stories of abuse were lies and said he was quote, heart broke that the judge could discount the lives of my brother's family, especially that little girl. He called it a gross miscarriage of justice. Then his wife Shonda said, this is not over for Cody. Cody's going to have to live with this for the rest of his life. If he's seeing anything at all in Mariel and Marilee's face the day that he killed her, he deserves to replay that image every night and I hope he does. Okay, now she also said, but Cody's still our nephew.

He wants to come hang out with, have a banquet with Uncle Verlan? This is the wife, this is Shonda. She said Cody's still our nephew, he's all that we have left of Paul and I think one of these days we will find the love for him again. Ew. Weird. Okay. September 2006, the family, mainly Verlin by the way,

sues video game makers because it's their fault. God damn do it. It's not! Wow, that is wild. And we did a bonus episode where we covered this suit and we mentioned this case in the suit. Oh really? Do you remember Sam Donaldson's ranch?

Yeah. You were like, wow, weird. Yeah, that's what this case is. Apparently relatives here are suing. They said a video game may not by itself cause a teen or another individual to kill the lawsuit says but it can provide indispensable or final link in an in a casual chain that results in tragedy a lot of things can and you can't sue them over it. The suit said that he obsessively played Grand Theft Auto Vice City.

Okay. Which so did I at that point in time. You? Yeah. Yeah, it was fun. Never killed anybody. I did want to try to jump a car one time. I really did, but I knew that wasn't gonna work for me,

so I did. They're so heavy in the front. Yeah, it doesn't work that well. They nosedive real fast. Oh man, the suit repeatedly refers to violence-filled video games, such as Grand Theft Auto, as virtual reality murder simulators.

Dude, have you seen the graphics on Vice City? It's not simulating anything. It's not simulating jack shit. The suit was filed on behalf of Verlin. Yeah. And here, and yeah, they go on to say that the suit seeks compensatory and punitive damages against Cody, the Sony Corporation,

Take Two, and Rockstar Games. Everybody. Florida attorney Jack Thompson, who's a fucking jackass, we talked about him in our Patreon a lot. He's a complete dildo, this guy. He said, our goal is to punish them so severely that they will stop marketing this game to kids. By the way, there's all sorts of shady shit about Jack if you look him up.

He's a fucking scumbag. They market them for kids. They assure parents as well as kids through various lobbyists that they are not harmful to kids and that's not true. So yeah, there you go. They said he's a cold-blooded killer and he got it from the games. It's thrown out obviously because it's fucking stupid. 2008 they appeal the video game suit.

Really? They appeal it again and a state district court judge in New Mexico dismissed the wrongful death lawsuit for failure to provide a legal valid basis for the damage claim. State court of appeals then tossed out the appeal of that decision saying the notice of appeal in the case had not been filed on time. So I don't even care what you have to say. Your paperwork sucks. Fuck off. Now 2010. Cody turns 21. And he is released first to a halfway house and then into the community. At 21, his uncle Carl, who is his nice aunt's husband, said he has a bright future. I see no problems with him progressing and getting on with the rest of his life like

the rest of us. A spokeswoman for the New Mexico Children's Youth and Families Department said that yes, he is a free man. While in custody, he obtained his high school degree and completed nearly two years worth of college credits. They said that he also had zero disciplinary issues and served as a mentor to other youths. I got a fucking sinking feeling that all those kids and that other one fucked with him,

and that's why he had to fight. He had to fight that. Well, it's a holding thing, so you gotta fight. Yeah, and I think also, and this is whatever, but I bet, I don't know how many, in this part of the state, I don't know how many blonde kids were in the lockup also. You know what I mean?

See a blonde kid? It might have been, yeah, he's a blonde kid named Cody and he's in a lockup in southeastern New Mexico and he might be in with a lot of people that he can't even speak English with that he can't talk to and they're like, hey blonde kid, what are you doing in here? And they've had much worse lives than him a lot of the times. Yeah. So that's one of the two. So he did all of that. Posey said he just wants a fresh start. His uncle uncle said I'm excited for him. I look forward to helping him as much as possible

but 2006 a lawsuit was filed not only against the Game company but against Cody The it's a wrongful death lawsuit the family is awarded 87 million dollars from Cody $87 million from Cody. Okay. Now they did say this, they told him that, that one of the people in the suit said that they don't plan

to garnish Cody's wages to collect it, because they're not gonna get that. But they do, this ensures that he can't like, sell his story to the movies and make a bunch of money and be some kind of hero. He said, a 21 year old kid with no skills is not going to have any wages anyway. I'm not interested in that.

That's so fucked up to be able to hang that over his head for the rest of his life. I can take your money. Now, I found there's a book, by the way, in 2022 that was written called Blind Eye by Martha Burns. And they call it a thinly fictionalized version of the story. I don't like that writing when you shot three people in the fucking eye.

Yeah, blind eye, exactly, because everybody turned a blind eye to the abuse. But she, it's the case. I mean, Jesus, they might have changed a name or two, but I mean, she describes the autopsies exactly like they happened, so I mean, nothing fictional about there. I did find Cody. Yeah, he's going under his real name. Appears to live in Texas at this point. He was working in the tire industry for a long time,

all different tire shops. Now it looks like he got back into ranch work here. He did go to college as well, Central New Mexico Community College. And, yep, the one even has listed as where he was is jail was in there on it. So I was like, oh, that's got to be him. So yeah, there he is. There's Cody. He's out there. And I don't know. This is one of those cases where you go, fuck, discuss it amongst yourselves because those are the facts't know fucked up that how to judge it because there's so many different emotions coming into it

I don't know if his dad forced him to sleep with that woman, but if he did that's fucked up, too That's sick the poor girl. I feel bad for if that happened the only person I feel bad for is that daughter That's it. Just the daughter. Yeah, me too. I feel terrible for her. Jake seems to be robbed too, and he's very sweet about it, but that's fucked up. Yeah, that poor guy, man. I think he realized it was collateral damage, I think, and it's just really sad though. So if you enjoyed that story, or at least how we told it,

because there's no way to enjoy a story of beatings, molestation, and murders, but you can enjoy how we told it. And if you do like that, give us five stars on whatever app you're listening on. Just say something nice, it doesn't matter what you want to say. Tell us what your favorite, let's say you like peanut butter and jelly, what kind of jelly do you like?

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and you get access to it all or you can have one cup of coffee come on what do you want here so do that we can do so follow us do all of that and patreon this week what we have for crime and sports which you have access to the Duke lacrosse scandal yeah there's strippers, there's allegations, and there's a lot of lions, so we'll talk all about that. Then for small town murders, we're gonna talk about the whole Idaho Coburger disaster, this fucking guy. I don't like this guy, and I wanna talk about him, basically.

I wanna call him a schmuck, even though it hasn't been, it hasn't been done yet. You can't be, you can't have that much DNA and act that pompous about it. I'm sorry, that's crazy. That's fucking crazy. So we'll talk all about that. Shut up and give me murder.com and you get a shout out.

Those happen right fucking now. Jimmy, give me the list of the names of the people who would never ever ever force us to have sex with our stepmothers. Hit me with them right now. This week's executive producers are Cindy Ryan, happy birthday by the way. Happy birthday. Skyla Ryan, happy birthday by the way. Happy birthday.

Skyla Powell, happy birthday. Holy shit, the two of you. Hope they're great days. Gary Howard and Dave Weasel. Dave Weasel and Gary too has been listening a long time. But Dave Weasel is a comedian. He's been listening to us for a very long time also. He's a wonderful person.

I've known him from Twitter for eight years ago or so. He's terrific. Thank you Dave. Fuckin a sweetheart salute other producers this week are crystal Bob scene Kelly from oh Oh, hello, Kelly from the IT guys wife So figure out why I wrote that like that. That's a That's a, hmm, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe the IT guy's wife wants. I'm trying to figure out why I wrote this. Why'd you do that to me? Register that, everybody.

Not trying to figure out why they wrote this. I'm trying to figure out why I wrote this like this. Just make sure you registered that, please, everyone. I think the IT guy's wife is jealous and Kelly wants her to leave him alone. I don't know. Maybe. She's coming over the house all the time,

really being a. I might be making wild accusations, Kelly. Ha ha ha ha. Work for Rubenstein. Other producers continuing are Janice Hill, Scarlet Horror Beast III, Paula T, Sarah, oh, it's Keen, Jacqueline Rose, Scott. Big buildup. Very easy.

Suspense, Scottish McMuffin, Dylan Langley, Anya Darkstar, Clay with no last name. Micah with no last name. Amanda Stewart. Jacob Wise. Tim Bland. Tammy with no last name. Greg with no last name. Shadow Thomas. Rebecca Coonley. Cunel. Anna Walter. Walterank. Holy shit. Melissa Fees. Mackenzie Malloy, Brittany Messer, Derek Lemons, almost called him Lemons, Jess Dixon, Maria Cece, Sarah Irvin, William Kammer, I think, Joseph G, Heather B, Soul, like the son, Spanish Soul. Heather B, the rapper?

Yeah, Heather B, the rapper. From the real world first season? I don't think that. Maybe. From the Boogie Down Productions crew? I hope not. BDP in the fucking house. Adriana Justice, Craig G., Jen Thomas, Frankie G., Samantha

Danino, Frank Grill, Ashley Rose, Jennifer Loya, Brian Cush, Flower Child, BMX. Good flower there. Big smoker, big bike rider, that's Brian. I like it. I know a lot of things about Brian right now. Good dude, yeah. He's doing good stuff out there.

Courtney Latham, the Hey Elliot podcast, Matt with no last name, Eric Sautel, Lisa Hambly, Annali Olson, Roxanne Hines, Deanna with no last name, MLT, Chrissy with no last name, Colt Cochran, the Mexicution. What? Is he Mexican and kills or does he kill Mexicans? Evidently. That is a fantastic name. That's hilarious. Nate Sheehan, Gary Jenkins, Jesse Wright, Sarah Cunningham, Julie Dee, Brent Howard,

Kathy Gonsar, Derek Long, Sherry Green, Amy Brooks, Yesenia Marie, Dump Truck, all right, that's a very nice Sylvan, somebody with a giant round ass. Sylvan Diebel, I think, Megan Murphy, just Meg Murphy, Kristy Busby, that just reminded me of Busby from Australia, I missed that guy, holy shit. Sherry Stanton, not to distract from you, Kristy, you're wonderful. Not to take anything away from you. You're the real hero this week. Mark Busby didn't do shit for us this week. Remember Mark Busby? What a guy.

He did nothing for us this week. You did. Jesse Rimland, that's a great land. Megging with no last name. Cindy with no last name. Lindsay Hood, Ginger Gal, Alexandria Weltalca, Candice Pachal, Raina M, Riena maybe, Tiffany Herbert, Nebby Nose, Randy with no last name, Laurel Manion, Nate Brooks, Scott Fineout, Emma Downing, Clover with no last name, Elf with no last name, Jason Hart, Michelle Carmen, John Solomon, Loyal Turkey, Peter Newell, Newell, Angela Jones, Motherfucker Jones, all right. Motherfucker.

Sheila Van Nort, Emily Westrick, Sarah Hill, Jess Herring, Reedle, Reedy, what is that? What is that? It is Reedle. Why did I write this? How did I write this? Who would do that? Mark would know last name.

Saraya Henry, Catherine Lenino, Leigh Eno, David Holloway, Angel Giovanni, Andy Gilbert, Mike Davis, Courtney Harris, Victoria Barra Fernandez, Barra, Courtney Vasquez, RJ Callens Jr., Dustin Brown, Hip Young, Johnny, oh Tommy, Tommy Guns. Hip Young young Tommy Guns. Hip young Tommy Guns. He may be a boxer, we don't know. Brian DuBec, probably not.

Katie Carly, Carly Merkert, Markert. Salah Nyazi, Salah Nyazi. Jalen Robertson, Chavarro with no last name. Chance McDaniel, hey Chance, how are you bud? Ray Dog, Jenny Holche, Christy Denler, Lusco, Melanie Simone, Diane from Spokane, Kerry Turner. That rhymes, it does. I like that.

That's very cool. Move to a city that rhymes with your name. Wissman from, where the fuck is that? I'm Jimmy from Kissimmee, nice to meet you. That's what you gotta be. Much better. Yeah, it's gotta be the first name'm Jimmy from Kissimmee, nice to meet you. There we go. That's what you gotta be. Much better. Yeah, it's gotta be the first name I guess, right? Yeah, it has to be.

Where the fuck am I? Kerry Turner, Haley Fisher, Susan Rebaut, Melanie DeSantos, Alex Richman, Tara Rodriguez, Joe Fenton, Billy Colley, Matt and Jesse Schlichten. Yep, the cakes would know last name. Lindsay Langley, Brother Bear, Jackie Feran, D. Goobelman, Woody Woodman Zee, Woodman Zee, what is that? That's a road somewhere, right? Yeah, it wasn't a place somewhere?

It's a town, it's a city. Yeah, I think you're right. Jen Holder, Stacy Henry, Nellie Noble, Tracy Pettit, Jen Fred, Cameron Grip, Jimmy would know last name, Melissa would know last name, Melissa would know last name, Shelly would know last name, Mason Gordon, Libby Alder, Alderfer, Christina would know last name, and then Christina Britz. I got a feeling that's one person, two different patrons. Thank you, Christina.

Well, thank you, thank you. Otherwise, thank both of you. Jason, the no-hooker-killing trucker, James. He kills no hookers. That's good. He kills everybody but hookers. Christopher Sharp. You gotta have standards, and you know, not even standards, you gotta have an appetite. Well, you gotta have standards and you know, not even standards.

You gotta have an appetite. Hey, you gotta have a 401k otherwise you're not worth it. Know your appetites. That's all. And you know. Georgia Schwartzkop, Silent Storm, Kyler with no last name, Leah Works Delgado, and all of our patrons obviously. You guys are the best.

Thank you. Thank you so much everybody. We cannot thank you enough for all that you do for us, for all that you continue to do for us. Tell your friends, spread the word, keep hanging out with us. You want to follow us on social media? Shut up and givememurder.com has the drop down menu. And until next week everybody, it's been our pleasure. If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.