Small Town Murder - #521 - Attack Of The Death Twins - Cosby, Tennessee

Episode Date: August 29, 2024

This week, in Cosby, Tennessee, a brutal & heartless slaying, on a rural front lawn, leads detectives down a rabbit hole of conspiracy, twin sisters, and multiple guys named George. The plot seemed to be years in the making, and still wasn't done very well. Paper trails, logic, and many murder requests lead to very close family, that reeled in some outsiders to solve one of their problems. Will it all come crashing down on them?Along the way, we find out that most of the moonshine used to come from this very town, that you shouldn't ask random people from the tanning salon to kill your husband, and that you shouldn't wear the jewelry of the person you just murdered!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Sign up for a free 30-day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.ca to sign up. I'm Dan Tuberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast. What's the answer? And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head? Hysterical, a new podcast from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios. Binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad free on Wondery Plus. This week in Cosby, Tennessee, a brutal and heartless slaying on a rural front lawn leads detectives down a rabbit hole of conspiracy, twin sisters, and multiple guys named George.

Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petragallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another wild, insane edition of Small Town

Murder. And we got it all for you today. We got craziness, we got twins, we got a bunch of guys named George. It's really a wild tale. Crazy stuff. We have a 12 year old that's the key to everything. This is a wild case, man. We have a 12 year old. That's the key to everything Is a wild case man. I'll tell you something right now We will get to that first off before we do that definitely had to shut up and give me murder.com

Get your tickets number one September the 20th. We are in Minneapolis at the State Theater It's gonna be our biggest show ever come be a part of the loudest biggest shut up and give me murder of all time We cannot wait and also we'll be releasing What we have for holds and comps for the Milwaukee show the next night because it's sold out otherwise so right few tickets coming out There so keep your eye out to our social media, and we'll do that. It's shut up and give me murder at Oh, it's actually small town murder. Where are we on Instagram? Small Town Murder on Instagram, yeah. I don't know, shutupandgivemurder.com's a website. While you're at shutupandgivemurder.com, by the way, get your tickets for the virtual live show

coming for Halloween! Oh, I'm so excited. We're gonna have a crazy case, all the pictures and all the wildness of a live show, and we'll be in costumes. We cannot wait, and you'll be in the comfort of your own home or wherever the hell you choose to watch this.

You can do it like in your car in the driveway. We really don't care where you watch it. So there you go. Cook it up and watch it. We can't wait. Also, patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get it all. Whole back catalog, hundreds of bonus episodes you've never heard before. New ones every other week, one crime and sports, one small town murder.

This week is no different, what you're going to get this week for crime and sports. You don't have to be into sports for this. Theme park disasters are back. It's quarterly we're doing those. They're a lot of fun. Talk about craziest things that ever happened in those areas. And then for small town murder it's back again the prisoner dating game oh if this is a banner week if you've been waiting for a week to sign up this is the week to do it come get it we're gonna line jimmy up some violent felons and pick him out his best match he'll have no idea what they've done or who they are until it's revealed so that's a lot of fun we'll check that out patreon.com crime and sports and you get a shout out at the end of the show as well.

Jimmy will mispronounce your name even though he'd love to get it correct. Be nice. While you're at it, listen to crime and sports and listen to your stupid opinions as well because they're goddamn hilarious. So check that out. Disclaimer time is a comedy show. You're listening to right now. We're comedians.

So there's going to be jokes and there's going to be terrible murder. Both of these things are going to happen. The thing is, how do you do that in a way that's palatable? Well, you can do it in a tasteful way is how you do it here. What we do is we never make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Why, James? Because we're assholes. There you go, but... But we're not scumbags. That's how that works. It keeps it pretty simple. There's plenty of stuff to make fun of when an idiot decides they're gonna murder someone and try to get away with it or a police force that doesn't know what they're doing or things of that nature. Plenty of jokes, but that's all fun. If you think that true crime and comedy should never ever go together, maybe we're not for you, but maybe we are want to hear a great story and hear some wild stuff i think it's time to sit back what do you say everybody let's all clear the lungs arms to the

sky let's all shout shut up and give me murder let's do this everybody here Here we go. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's go. Let's do it. We're going all the way to Tennessee today. Down to Tennessee and we're going to, this is in eastern Tennessee, kind of right up against the Smoky Mountains next to the North Carolina border, Cosby, Tennessee, like Bill. Oh, is that right? Same way.

Watch out. Yeah. Keep your eyes open, head on a swivel. Cover your drinks. Doesn't say don't take drinks from anybody. You don't know here. That's a thing to do You don't want that. No one can help you get on TV, but you that's the way it works. So In Eastern Tennessee, it's about an hour to Knoxville About four hours to Nashville. It's all the way on the other side of the state there And then about an hour to our last Tennessee episode, which was Ballyton, Tennessee, which was evil deeds

and Ouija writings. That was a fun episode. I remember that. That was an express and it's crazy. This is in, I assume it's cock County, C O C K E. Oh, yeah, that's cock. It's cock. Whatever it is. I don't care what it is. You live in cock County now, or it's cocky, but either way it's cock You're getting cock motto here. Very simple. Where the hell am I? What is fucking happening? How'd I get here? And where am I it's a small town Cosby is in cock County Jesus cut cut. It's exactly I was waiting for that I'm like, hey, yeah The original name of Cosby is a real mystery, which is hilarious, because they had Cosby mysteries,

which is so funny. There's a lot of mystery. That was the first line of the history stuff on Wikipedia, is the origin of the name Cosby is a mystery. I was like, hilarious, I had to put that in there. Too much. They do have a couple of ideas of maybe how they became Cosby.

The first centers around an early trapper and distiller in the area named Jonathan Cosby. Trapper and distiller. Trapper. He traps and distills things. Not good. Jesus Christ. This is the best though. It even gets better. Trapper and distiller named Cosby? It gets better. The second theory suggests that the Creakin Valley were named after Dr. James Cosby. So he's even, like on the show, this is crazy. Who was a Revolutionary War veteran and a friend of John Sevier, who was,

there's Sevierville or whatever it's, I don't know how to pronounce it. Severville, whatever the fuck it is, who cares? There's not enough people there to care. And either way though, the name appears as early as 1838 in different writings and shit like that. It seems to be founded as Cosby Creek at first, and then it just becomes Cosby.

By 1900, most of the residents here are farmers or lumber mill people and that sort of shit, and they supplement their incomes like in the wild and wonderful whites They're doing like ginseng and shit in the hills basically Moonshine big in this area. Yeah, huge Cosby was known to East Tennesseans in the first half of the 20th century as the moonshine capital of the world Yes, it's wild. It was so notorious that they said that somebody said that when they first went away from Cosby,

they had lived there and they gave their address as Cosby. Basically he said he realized that he should be ready to say, yes, they make moonshine up there because that's what I don't they make moonshine up there. It's what everybody would say to him. The explosion of moonshining in this area would lead to a lot of like Dukes of Hazard style car and cop and fuck. Yeah led to the beginnings of NASCAR essentially, right? Yeah, that's what that is. So the they basically the illegal distillers would warn of an approaching law enforcement agent by setting off dynamite

That really that warns everybody in the hills to hide your shit. There's a cop coming up the fucking holler. That's what that is. Kaboom. Kaboom. Because everybody can hear that throughout the whole hill there. Other times, locals would drive behind the agent's cars and this would lead to a long tailgate along the road.

So the guy would get there, there'd be a hundred cars behind him. Just a big procession following the cop. Hilarious. And nobody would like fucking, nobody would tell on anybody else because they were afraid of being, you know, merked in the woods. So one guy said, this is a revenue official here. Oh no, this is another guy. I'm sorry.

On my walks to the country store, I have stood barefoot watching as the hauler carefully brushed away his tire tracks with pine boughs. Moonshine stills were well concealed within the dark recesses of the mountains, but the smoke still wafted skyward from points all over the green mountains. Not so easily concealed were the odor of the mash fermenting and the wump wump wump of the thump keg. On rare occasion I saw a still in full operation on Sunday in sight of Catons Grove Church. Inside the church. Then all these moonshiners started fighting each other because they wanted the market.

So then it became basically rival fan. It was like moonshine mafia down here and they were all fighting each other. It was big. Now as liquor became legal again and dry counties started to turn to wet counties, it kind of started to wane a bit here. But it's still known as a moonshine mecca, even today. Reviews of this town, these are for the county. There are no reviews of this town. It's a very small town. It's kind of a resort-y.

It's either like a camp area or a moonshine making live in the hills area. Here's four stars. Like anywhere, my town has its issues, however the positives far outweigh the negatives here. This area is filled year round with vibrant colors, artistic one of a kind views, and an all over cozy feeling that small towns possess. It does not have expensive attractions

or tacky overpriced shopping centers. By the way, that's a shot at Pigeon Forge, which is nearby. Oh. The people here are real pissed off that Pigeon Forge is like, oh, it's getting people in from all everywhere. God damn it, Dolly.

He then says, she then says, this area is real. Oh. It's real. it's the authentic shit. Real people live here with real problems, real emotions, and real appreciation of what is here and what they have to do. Real emotions? Real emotions, unlike this fake fucking Pigeon Forge bullshit. Three Stars is a long one, Jesus. Cook County, or Cock County, sorry, is a rural county in East Tennessee that hasn't grown as much as nearby counties. It's centered around the small town of

Newport. Living here is like a country song. Everyone knows each other and most are hospitable. A mix of locals and transplants, mainly families and retirees. Activities are centered around the outdoors with bigger tourist spots close by and a location halfway between Knoxville and Asheville. Dining is mostly fast food with a few good locally owned options but nothing fancy. Economic activity is limited locally so most people drive 30 to 60 minutes to work. Drug and nonviolent crime are prevalent, we'll be the judge of that, like much of southern Appalachia, but both are easy to avoid by keeping good company. Alright, good company. Two stars, we have little access to public workout facilities.

Fitness isn't a big concern to people in my area. A lot of biscuits and gravy. A lot of biscuits, yeah. A lot of heavy breakfasts going on there. That's a pork gravy. We got three kinds of pork. Tons of hogs on that table. Yeah. When people are eating three different types of pork for breakfast, it's too much pork,

man. You got to stop. And bacon and sausage. Watch out. That's a lot. And a sausage gravy, too, on top of it. It's a lot. Now people in this town, 742 current residents

here. Very small place, more female than male by a good stretch. It's over 52% female. Median age here is 53.9 because there isn't a lot. You have to drive an hour if you're going to work. So it's a place you retire or come from and leave. 50 year old people mostly. Yep. The 21 to 24 year olds, 0%. Not one of them. Nobody.

They're leaving. Yeah. The race of this town, 98.8% white, 1% Native American, 0.2% black, 0.2% Asian. That's what's here. Yeah. And it looked like the incomes here and it seems like there's a lot of people that make between 75 and 100 grand a year here. Like almost 25 percent, but nobody makes over 150,000 here and there's also a lot of people who make under 30 grand a

year. So it's kind of that sort of deal. Median household income, which in the rest of the country is almost 70,069 and change. Here it's 45,192. Low. Cost of living. It's not that bad. Well, 45 grand for a household? Out there? Well, that's the thing.

The median home cost here is $223,700, which. It's kind of steep, but it's low. It's lower than the national average, but for 45 grand for your whole house, it's kind of steep but it's low it's lower than the national average but for 45 grand for your whole house that's not a possible it's difficult well maybe if you can figure it out we can help you we have for you the Cosby Tennessee real estate report two-bedroom rental here, and I don't know how many are available in such a small area, but they go for about $740 here according to this. That's pretty decent.

That's pretty low, way lower than the national average. Here's a house to two bedroom, three baths, so T-ball for all your bee holes here. Wow. Not bad. This is our plus. 1,246 square feet. So it sounds like each bedroom has a bathroom and there's a hall bath probably. Not a bad house. Now we don't know if the inside is terrible because there's no interior pictures of this house.

But the outside is decent looking. It looks like it's newer. It's not falling apart. It doesn't look like people are murdered or meth is cooked in there. A two three is weird. That's a weird thing and you can get this house right now starting in this auction at one dollar. Auction. It's an auction house one dollar. So it's gonna go higher I'm sure. I would assume so. It might go a buck fifty. Here's a zero bed zero bath. Okay. They're calling it 3,4884 square feet but I don't think that's right I think that's the whole lot you get because it's it's an RV it's literally an RV it's on fucking wheels still it's not like in the ground it's an RV that's parked somewhere with the stairs and a little porch attached to it like built next I've never seen this before

as like a single wide residence. But it's still got tires. No, no, it's a fucking RV. It's not a trailer. It's an RV. Like you just you just hook it up to a big truck and pull it and that's you're gonna live in that now. It's wild. Is it a fifth wheel or is it a travel trailer RV? It's a fucking RV with wheels. It's like not a little one, like a big one. Does it go on like the tongue of the truck or does it go in the bed of the truck? Do you know what I mean? Does it have like the big cab above the top? Oh, I know it doesn't go in the bed of the truck. No, it's its own thing. It's a pull behind. Yeah, it's a oh, it's big. Yeah, it's fucking huge. You'd need a big truck for it to pull it. It's a big, it's a big son of a bitch. This house, uh, in a house am I talking about? RV with stairs and wheels. It also has an HOA fee of $84 a month. So you get to pay an HOA fee without even having a home that has a ground. And for this privilege, $84,000 for this RV with an HOA. And here we go, finally, seven bedroom, eight bath. So T-Bowl for all your bee holes over here.

It's either that or this. Or this. 4,631 square feet on 22.74 acres. It's inside, looks like a hunting lodge. It's all wood. It's pretty cool, has an indoor pool that definitely looks like it's from like a discount hotel. Remember the Home Two Suites we stayed in? It looks like that. Like, oh there's a pool room in here, okay. It's very strange, also a little cabin on the property. It's interesting, they say it has over a thousand feet of creek frontage. Very

nice. Two million seven hundred seventy five thousand bucks for that though. It's a little steep to live in the middle of nowhere. You got creek frontage. A thousand feet of creek frontage with a multitude. It also says a multitude of building sites. This property is the perfect location for your own smoky mountain resort or wedding venue so they're not even saying move into this they're saying this is like as a rental both existing cabins are absolutely beautiful well maintained and one owner okay it looks like it's relatively newer it's not definitely not from 22 acres 22 and almost 23 acres not bad so yeah

would be a nice wedding venue, but. Two million dollars. If you wanna run a business there. Things to do, okay, here we go. Not a lot as you might imagine. Make moonshine, dodge from revenue agents as they try to find your still. Also the Newport Harvest Street Festival. Okay.

It's downtown Newport which is nearby. First weekend of October. Absolutely. For the renowned Newport Harvest Street Festival, experience beloved traditions like arts and crafts, regional cuisine, beauty pageants, of course. Of course, let's judge the children by their looks, obviously. Gotta have that. Historic historic demonstrations, rides and games. Now since, since its inception in 1986 as part of the Tennessee homecoming celebration, the festival has evolved under the guidance of Coq County partnership chamber of commerce, the old, the old chamber of Coq, as we call it around the way, the old triple C, quadruple Co county chamber coppers.

The old CCPCC, we all know that one. Today it features hundreds of vendors, live entertainment, which they don't name, that's how good the entertainment is, and attractions like Kittyland. Don't miss out on kicking off the harvest season in the great smoky mountains. Join us for a weekend of fun. That's really the only information they put out about this fucking thing too. There's a thing to be a vendor,

like a fucking harvest vendor or something, but other than that, there's no real, here's a schedule. Yeah, set the bar low, man. You're gonna come in, I don't think anything good's gonna happen here. Oh, look, a band. I think it's one of those.

Look at this, I'm having a good time. And then finally, the Cock County Bluegrass Festival, this is what you'd expect here. Grab your tickets ASAP and come out and enjoy the day with us and here are the bands. The Dan Taminsky Band, T-Y-M-I-N-S-K-I, Dan Taminsky Band, the Poe Ramblin' Boys, Poe meaning short for poor, Poe Ramblin' Boys, Po meaning short for poor, Po Ramblin' Boys, Monroeville, it's the name of the band, the whole town is going to be, it's a small town but still it's a lot to put on one stage, Seth Mulder and Midnight Run, okay, Call of the Wildman, and that is, then there's also Turtle Man, Mountain Man, and then finally Marge and Incharge is the name of a band, which is funny. I like that one.

That's the fun one. So that's what's happening. Why don't they just like look at something and then say, man, Turtle Man. He's Mountain Man, and then here's Marge and in charge. She's large and Marge. The Poe Ramblin' boys, yeah. So crime rate in this town, what we are interested in, property crime, this is wild, is about double

the national average. Golly. This is a town of 700 people. They own less than 800 people, double the national average. I guess a lot of auto thefts here and shit too. Really? It's very strange. Violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime,

just below the national average, but pretty close to it. For a town of less than a thousand people, you would think safety and security is your number one thing you're getting out of it. That's the reason to be there, right? I would think. These are people that are're getting out of it. That's the reason to be there, right? Yeah, I would think. These are people that are trapped and pissed about it. Sure as shit can't think of another reason to be there, I'll tell you that much.

So that said, let's talk about some people who probably wish they weren't there. Let's talk about some murder. We'll get right into it. Okay, let's talk about first of all, Denise Lynn Graham. Denise, Denise with a C by the way. Is that right? Not an S of all, Denise Lynn Graham. Denise with a C, by the way. Is that right? Not an S, yeah, that's new.

Denise Lynn Graham, she is born in 1962, and she has a sister named Deborah Graham, who was also born in 1962, because they're twins. Debbie and Denise. Debbie and Denise are twin sisters. D Nice. Yeah, D Nice. They're twin sisters twin sisters. D Nice. D Nice. They're twin sisters.

Not identical though. All right. Fraternal. It's kind of cool. And yeah, and it's funny because you never see identical twins that don't get along. Like identical twins are always up each other's asses and whatever. They don't get along but they're around each other all the time still. Constantly.

That's what I mean. They're like a married couple though, you know what I mean? Whereas fraternal twins, it's like, she doesn't even look like me, fuck her. You know what I mean? They don't give a fuck, yeah. Sure, we came out of the same vagina at the same time, but I mean.

Yeah, barely tell. After that, we went our separate ways. I don't know what to tell you. As soon as we popped out, we started going differently here. So they moved with their family to Cleveland, Tennessee. Everybody here is kind of Cleveland, Tennessee people, by the way, in the early 1970s when they were kids. This is where they moved. I believe they're pressing. I imagine it is. Yeah, I think I believe they're from they're from Michigan originally, family. So they moved

to Cleveland, Tennessee. From what I understand, they had a good upbringing. They weren't wanting for things. They weren't barefoot running around the hills looking for ginseng at all or anything like that. They were just fine. They had middle class family, not abused, not wanting for things. Just grew up fine. But they fucking hate each other. Debbie and Denise hate each other. They don't, they just don't fight a little bit like brothers, they just fucking don't like each other from the beginning.

What started that, you know? In the womb, I assume. Some beef happened and they've never been able to settle it. Get on your side of the uterus. No, I don't want you in here. Get away from my, you're stepping on my cord. Stop. What are you doing?

Get your own sack. You're taking all the amniotic fluid. Let's go. Come on. Jesus Christ. Leave some for me, you fucking hog. Mom's eating bacon. You know it's my favorite.

Leave some amniotic fluid for the fish, will you? Going back and forth. So they...yeah, they're polar opposites, apparently. And like I said, if they were identical twins, they'd figure it out. But fraternal twins, eh, fuck her. So the Denise was a good student and kind of the good twin. And Deborah was the hanging out with the wrong crowd twin, quote unquote. Get after her, Debbie.

Yeah, she's the different one. Debbie's doing that. So they don't hang out together. They fight to the point point where this is crazy because you live together and you could do this at home They would get in the fist fights in school with each other The twins are fighting again Literally, we're all in third hour bitch. They live together. Yeah, fight at home. I'll meet you at home afterwards This is crazy. Yeah, you know, they sleep in the same fucking room, two twin beds with a goddamn nightstand in between. We know the setup.

And they would have to be broken up by teachers who must've been like, why are you doing this in school? Beat her up at home. Tired of this shit. Uh, later one of the family members said they absolutely hated each other. Fascinating. That's fact we've never had that we've had a lot of twins. Yeah. And they're always like completely intermixed and fucking just entrenched and entwined in each other's lives to like an unhealthy degree. And then this one they're like, fuck you. Fuck you. Don't even say hello in the hallway. Yeah, just leave me alone.

They don't even know. The down hallway. Yeah, just leave me alone. They don't even nod to each other. And Debbie's not the downer, how about it? This is great. No, Debbie's the crazy one. Now 1981 comes around, and they're about 19 years old, the twins at this point, and Denise was working at a video rental store, which is brand fucking new

at the time, by the way. That's like a cutting edge. People didn't even have, they had to rent VCRs back then. In Cleveland on Tennessee, that's what she's doing? Wow. Who knew that place existed? That's what I mean. So I mean, this is the, that's the portal to the outside world, a video store at that point. And fucking that must've been really a lifeline to be, to at least like young people in this town. Oh my god I can see things from the outside finally. So they this is well she's working at this video rental store.

She met a young man who came in to Peru some videos here. I guess he didn't go through those saloon doors and she was impressed. She was very impressed with him that he kept off from the porn. This guy's name is Jonathan Aaron Smith. He goes by Aaron though, never goes by Jonathan. I didn't know that was so prevalent. It's so much. It happens so often, I didn't either. You'd see it in like an actor or something who changed their name.

You go, okay, they grabbed their middle name, that's fine. But normal people, go by your name. Country music people take their first and middle name and then they leave off the last name Yeah, yeah, they don't want a lot of people do that. They don't want to sound ethnic is why one of them might have been Or piss off anybody ever at all. Yeah Polish or Jewish or some No, no, it's just Eric ball, I was gonna say it's much better if my middle name is just Harry

No, I'm just Eric Ball. I was gonna say, it's much better if my middle name is just Harry. Todd Harry. That's my last name, Todd Harry. Fucking ridiculous, yeah. So yeah, these two, they're hating each other. She finds a man, Jonathan Aaron Smith. He is born in 1960, so he's just about their age, same shit. He's 20 at the time or something.

He's also born and raised in Cleveland. He's a Cleveland, Tennessee guy. He's, his father's name is Harry Smith, and his mother's name is Cleeta Smith. Cleeta from Cleveland. Cleeta from Cleveland. And he's described as a fun-loving, very adventurous guy. Was kind of always the class clown.

Yeah. He's a fun-loving guy. Funny kid. Funny kid, and not, whereas Denise is like the kind of button the class clown. He's a fun loving guy. Funny kid and not, whereas Denise is like the kind of buttoned up twin, so he's meeting the good twin, quote unquote, at this point. So, I don't know, she might loosen her up, he might loosen her up a little bit possibly.

The toe of the line twin, yeah. Yeah, one relative said that he had a very bubbly personality and that he quote never met a stranger. Very down to be fair. And if you're from a small town your whole life, maybe that's just the way you act. You know what I mean? Everybody's semi familiar. So they date for about a year and then in 1982 they get married. Aaron and Aaron and Denise. So one twin is married off at this point. That was fast, yeah. Now soon after that, about 82, early 83,

Denise and Debbie's mother dies unexpectedly from a heart attack. Oh no. Drops dead. So this incident, as you would imagine, a lot of people would bring the twins closer together, it drove them further apart. Because the only thing the only thin thin

Fucking thread of fabric that was holding them together was their mother saying please get along with each other and don't hate each other That's all there was it was just mom saying you're both coming for Christmas And I don't want to hear a fucking thing out of either one of you you're gonna get along I'm putting you right next to each other at the fucking table deal with it I want a picture with my daughters and now mom's dead and that's over blaming the other for mom over with. Yeah What would you do if you were framed for murder by a serial killer? Listen now to natural selection Scott versus wild bill. I Am retired FBI criminal profiler Candace DeLong,

and my new series begins in the heart of a tropical paradise where a darkness lurks. Meet Scott Nikita, sailing on his boat with his family until one encounter changes everything. I have the power of Satan. Everybody will bow before me. I burst out laughing. I didn't know he was a murderer at that point. That killer is Wild Bill.

What drives a man to murder? And how does he continue to manipulate from behind bars? Subscribe now to Natural Selection, Scott vs. Wild Bill. I'm Dan Tuberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York. I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad.

I'm like, stop around. She's like, I can't. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and and spreading fast. It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls. With a diagnosis the state tried to keep on the down low. Everybody thought I was holding something back. Well you were holding something back intentionally. Yeah, yeah, well, yeah. No, it's hysteria. It's all in your head. It's not physical. You're, oh my gosh, you're exaggerating. Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem? Or is it something else entirely?

Something's wrong here. Something's not right. Leroy was the new dateline and everyone was trying to solve the murder. A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios. Hysterical. Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad free right now by joining Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Hysterical Early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. So Debbie takes off and moves to New York.

Oh. She ends up living in like Queens for a while. Yeah. Really? In Queens, yeah, she moves to New York. She's like, I'm out of here going to New York City. Cleveland, Tennessee girl in New York City in 1980, 83? Wow. Yeah. This is like one of those movies with the one with Billy, Woody Harrelson and Kiefer

Sutherland or whatever where they ride into Manhattan on fucking horses and shit. Yeah, that one. And Ernie Hudson saves the day as the black cowboy. Of course he does. Of course he does. Ernie Hudson's great. That's a good movie actually. I've watched it a million times.

It's not, but it's really watchable. It's a piece of shit. Exactly. It it a million times. It's really watchable. It's a piece of shit. Exactly. It's so much fun because it's so stupid. A lot of these like early 90s like Doc Hollywood's, it's a piece of shit but it's great. It's great when you watch it. Woody Harrelson as a ne'er-do-well cowboy that gambles everything away named Pepper?

That's awesome. There was another, you have seen this a million times, you know his name. He rides in the back of a pickup truck. He's really in there. What's the other one? There's another movie from that time period that had cowboys come into the city for some reason. I think it was a similar type of premise. But it wasn't supposed to. Do you remember who was in it? Fuck no. All I can picture is Woody and Keifer.

Woody and Keifer? I'm you, it's a good movie. I haven't watched it 20 times for no reason. Trust me, I get it. He washed his underwear in the creek in Central Park. It's fucking hilarious. He set up a campfire and shit. Very fish out of water, hacky but funny. Yeah.

Obviously. What would a country guy do? He'd think you're camping in Central Park and he'd start. Obviously. There's no camping here, guys. They're like, oh, we're just pushing on. Yeah, pushing on. Okay. The Bronx is that way. Move out. So there's Debbie, she's living in New York and for the next few years she's staying in New York, not very minimal contact with Denise because they hate each other and Denise is as a husband and trying to figure things out in Tennessee. Now by 1987, Aaron and Denise have a daughter.

So they waited six years after they met to have a kid and they have a daughter. So they waited six years after they met to have a kid and they have a daughter named Brittany at this point. She is gonna be a big key to this whole thing, Brittany by the way. Yeah. Then in 1989 they have a son named Joshua. Now Joshua has Down syndrome which is obviously difficult because nobody wants their kid to have anything wrong with them at all and that's really hard. So now they're by 89, they're raising two kids. One of them has very special needs, and that's a lot on a young couple that might not have a ton of money and things like that.

And also, picture their life entirely different, and now it's a certain way. Exactly. So by 1991, the couple and the two kids and up Moving into a commercial campsite in Gatlinburg, Tennessee Okay near Gatlinburg, it's in Cosby now. This is Harry and Cleavage Aaron's parents. They bought this place It's called Camp Wright acres and camp RIT acres like Camp Wright eight acres here. Yeah, so They buy the place and Aaron and his family live in the caretakers property on the right and that house And then his parents are building their they build their own home also in the campground for them to live

So it's so fun. It's nice and Aaron is kind of he manages the place and and runs it and You know, they're living there and that's how it goes. Not bad. It's at Highway 321 near the, what is it, the Sever County line. Sever. Sever County line. That's so dope though. Can you imagine owning a fucking campground where like in the winter time nobody's ever

there, so you just get all that to yourself. Yeah, that would be nice, but then you're like in the woods in the winter by yourself, which is also fine to some degree but if I'm up in the mountains and shit I'm not really it might be a little shining-ish. Yeah there's gotta be some access to something. That's what I mean and during the summer I don't want to fucking watch people. Imagine having to deal with people. Oh God. There's shit everywhere and fucking kids running around all over the place and people eating food everywhere I fucking murder these people I would hate it and the people have rolling in with their motorhomes

Oh already full and you got to dump them. Where's your dump site fucking scum after well, we're already full You're at the wrong place then chief. I don't know what to tell you You brought your motor home full. The Bronx is that way. Move on. Push it on. We're pushing on. Pushing on. So yeah, that's what they're doing here.

They're living at this campground and doing all of this. Now, Aaron also becomes an ordained minister and runs a small church at the campsite. So in case you're camping and you need church, the campsite. Oh. So in case you're camping and you need church, you gotta. Save and we can do it.

Yeah. Now this place, by the way, a lot of these lots are owned by people. So there are people that live here full time. Like the RV thing that we told, that's exactly what is the situation a lot of people have. That's why I think that's included

in the real estate report is to give an idea because it's in the same exact area here. Now, Denise, while he's doing this, Denise, her job is outside the campsite. She doesn't work at the campsite. She helps out a bit, but she works as a dental assistant in Severville. So, yeah, she works as a dental assistant out there.

It's about 30 miles away. So she's driving more than a half hour to work back and forth each time and all of that. Now by 1995 they're starting to have some problems. Really? Which, yeah, I mean they've been together 14 years. This isn't sustainable? They have two kids. Yeah, they're living on this campground. Some people would be very happy, but some people would not be very happy and Harry

Which is Aaron's dad started to know even notice from the outside. They're having some marital problems Denise is very unhappy living at the campsite number one. She doesn't like living there. It's in the middle of fucking nowhere Let's be realistic here. It's not there is not a lot to do around there You got to get it out away from everybody. Otherwise, why would you come camp there? You're not going to come camp next to a cul-de-sac of track homes. Otherwise, you're in a mobile home park. Yeah, that's exactly what you are. So she doesn't like that, and her job is making that

worse. Her daughter, Brittany, said that job in Seaverville was not a good thing for her. There were several women that worked there that were having affairs with patients. It was a swinging dental office. This place was fucking sw- you go there to get a cleaning and you get a cleaning buddy. Let me tell you something. Have you ever once thought that that was an option? Even an option. No, apparently-

Perhaps they just get the hottest clientele, but my God. You give like, I need a cleaning with like a wink and then they know when you're going to get fucked and everything. I need to be drilled today. I need to get some drilling done if you know what I'm talking about. I'm giving the fillings today, you know what I'm saying? Wondering if my crown's ready, wink, wink, you know what I mean? So she said

that several of the women that worked there were having affairs with patients and Denise was right there with them having an affair. So this is a swing in dental office. All the dental assistants are fucking multiple patients. This is just- Is this something I just didn't know was a thing? I didn't know either. I could see if it was 1974 and you're like, yeah, it's swinging times. Everyone's coming in with giant fucking bushes and pubes coming down their legs and nobody gets... It's 1995.

Who's... Holy shit. What dental office is a den of iniquity in 1995? If that happens, point me the direction. Right? I've never heard of it. Is this what the Seinfeld episode was based on when Tim Wotley changed his thing to adults only and had like penthouse magazines out there and

Jerry thought that they molested him when he went in there because he couldn't remember if he left his shirt untucked or tucked and when he came out it was untucked and him and the dental assistant and the dentist were like putting their shirts on when he came to. What? That's what this is, I feel like. It's a very weird thing. That's incredible. I don't want Jizz anywhere in my dental office.

I want that place to be, fuck, everything in there is going to touch my mouth. No Jizz. We don't have to fuck here, right? We can bill insurance and get the fuck out of here, right? I hope so, and bill insurance for it. Awesome. That's bill insurance for it. Awesome. That's how you do it. So that's how this is going.

Aaron's going to end up at some point moving in with his parents, which is just across the campsite and Denise continues to live at the home. At some point, Aaron files for divorce because of the affairs. He says it's too much. And Denise also files for divorce as well. So they both file. You don't have to. Well, apparently, because she's,

I guess she is also like counter suing him, apparently, for divorce. And a custody battle now is gonna ensue. Yeah, and somebody told her it looks better if you file. Yeah, totally. Well, she claims Aaron was physically abusive to her and to the children. Oh, which is interesting because Brittany says that never happened. At least she was never beat up by her dad anyway. So after filing the suit, she called the police on

him and had him escorted out of the house, got a TRO on him. So the cops come and say, here's a here's a restraining order. Get your shit and you're escorting you out of the house, got a TRO on him. So the cops come and say, here's a restraining order, get your shit and we're escorting you out of here. Don't care if you've never touched those. We don't care. That's interesting. When I was a process server, I've served those TROs before. Yeah, you have to go with the cops.

Like the cops, well, for a process server, it's the greatest thing in the world, because it's the one time you know no one's gonna try to shoot you or kill you, because you knock on the door, or the cops knock on the door. Cops knock on the door, dude opens it for the cops, and then you go, here's your paper, bye. And then you leave, and then the cops tell him,

get your shit, and we're taking you out of here. And they have to deal with all the downfall of it. So the campsite, by the way, has a gated entrance that requires those using the campgrounds to have a key card to gain entrance. Okay. Otherwise, it's got a gate, so you can't just roll in here. Just keep that in mind for later.

Now Aaron is allowed to visit his children even in this initial stage. He has visitation and he's allowed to see his kids every other weekend, but often Denise Refuses to turn the children over to him. She just won't do it at the campground or did she move out? She at the she's still living in the marital home on the campground So yeah, they're living in here She files divorce was like get the fuck out of the place you love go to the other side of the campground To your parents house cuz that's where he goes. So yeah, go walk to your parents' house over there. I'll live here.

Nice. Now, Denise would, like I said, refuse to turn the children over. In court, Denise presented drawings she claimed proved his abuse. Okay? Drawings that she said were hers, her drawings. I don't know how drawings would prove anything because it's a drawing Anything now Brittany says though there were some drawings presented at the divorce trial Denise said I drew them Meaning Brittany Denise. She says Brittany drew these our poor daughter

Yeah, this poor scarred child drew pictures of abuse. Look at how sad this is The judge determined they were drawn by Denise. Not me. She didn't draw them Denise drew them and said my daughter drew these isn't this horrible and she said the judge said you fucking liar The daughter didn't draw these that's some fucked up shit Wow, that is fucked up to be like look cuz that would be heartbreaking to see a little kid's Wow. That is fucked up to be like, look, cause that would be heartbreaking to see a little kid's crayon drawing

of abuse of the family. That would be horrible. And when it's fake, it's even more horrible. That's terrible shit. Now by summer of 1996, shit is getting ugly to say the least here. Here is a woman named Sharon Jarvis. She would watch Denise's kids, or their kids,

Denise and Aaron's kids, or their kids, Denise and Aaron's kids, Brittany and Joshua, in her in-home daycare center while Denise worked during the summer of 1996. Now, she says that Denise told her about the divorce and the custody battle that they were going through, and Sharon Jarvis also said that Denise told her on three different occasions that three now separate occasions of different days that if Aaron got custody of the children, she'll have to kill Aaron or have him killed before she would lose her children. She said that three times?

Three different times to the babysitter. Wow. Which is just imagine who else she's telling if she's just telling the babysitter. Yeah. Now Jarvis said that Denise told her these things once on the telephone and then twice while Denise was in her home, dropping off or picking up the kids. She said it over the phone.

Over the phone even, and in person. Just in case you didn't know it was me over the phone. In case we broke up a little, loose connection. Up here in the mountains, you know, it gets spot body. I need you to know this for facts. Whoof Sharon Jarvis also said that during these conversations Denise would be very emotional and adamant about her intent to prevent Aaron from attaining custody of the children She would like it tears in her eye I'm gonna take those kids that he's never gonna take him from me and all of that Jarvis never reported any of this

She figured it was just a lady blowing off steam. You see people in the middle of divorces, they say crazy shit. The things that you have said in the midst of your divorce, I'm like, thank, fuck the mics are off when you said that because if she ends up in a fucking drainage canal somewhere, you are going to prison if you said that shit in front of anybody but me. That is, because I won't tell. Yeah, at the time it felt right to say. It felt, exactly. And that's I figure how she felt too.

And if she does in-home daycare, she has heard plenty of people talk about this sort of thing. So no big deal. She said the last time she saw Denise was when Denise came to her home to get a refund on two days worth of daycare and to ask Sharon Jarvis to testify at the divorce hearing for her, which other than this is what she told me, which is hearsay, I don't know what the point of that would be. So then there's Denise's coworkers here. Um, and these are, I guess part of the dental fuck crew.

I don't know. I'm not sure, allegedly. Melanie Hurst and Kristin Latham are these two. Some Melanie and a Kristin? A Melanie and a Kristin. Kristin is with a CH, by the way, which I have never seen. Surprising. Those chicks fuck.

Yeah, they are going to fuck. You're spelling Kristin wrong. Hold on. Let me fuck you and make sure you know. No, they are going to fuck. You're spelling Kristen wrong. Hold on. Let me fuck you and make sure you know. No, I'm just kidding. So is this wrong? Yeah, well, feels so right. Feels so right.

C-H-R-I-S-T-E-N. So they testified they worked with Denise in the dental office of Dr. Steve Madison. Now Hurston-Latham said that often Denise told them about the marital difficulties that she was having with Aaron, and a couple of years before all this, 1995-ish, 94, Denise told Kristen-Latham that Aaron Smith had choked her while they were on a cruise. Fuck. Now, Denise also told Latham that Aaron Smith was abusive to the two children

as well. Hurst and Latham said that more than once, Denise said if Aaron Smith got custody of the children, quote, she would kill him or have him killed. So this is just like her thing that she says all the time to everybody she knows. She's on a loop. Wow. It's just her thing. Hurst said that as of the custody hearing, as it started to near, Denise became more upset and distraught, which is normal. That would be normal. Sure. That's stressful.

It's a stressful time for anybody. Hearst said that she often saw bruises on Denise, which Denise said Aaron Smith had caused. Oh boy. Now, also Hearst and Latham admitted that they never believed that Denise would actually kill Aaron Smith. That would be crazy. She's just the chick who fucks dental patients and I know she's not going to actually kill

anybody. She's just blowing off steam. That's all. Hurst thought that Denise was quote, just under pressure and she was just stressed when she was saying that. That's the impression everybody got. Nobody reported this to the police or any of that kind of shit. So those are just, you know, like I said, you've said worse than that to me.

Certainly. Yeah. I think I've given descriptions how I do it. You have described the satisfaction of acts committed with your bare hands as a matter of fact. Like you've really detailed shit way more than that. The colors, the face I want to turn, shit like that. And I was like, it's, it's, he's blowing off steam. And I was right. And I was right. Boys, Matt, as usual this time, he's mad.

I was right too. And you were, you were just blowing off steam. It's true. I never hurt anybody. She does become a little bit more explicit here and you know what, let's say a lot more explicit of what she says. She gets descriptive. This is Debbie Graham now, not Denise, her sister.

At some point she started talking to her sister again. This is the weird part. They don't talk about anything. They don't hang out. They don't like each other except when something big comes up, they're apparently got each other's back because Debbie Graham asks her boyfriend Martin Giovi. She did go to New York. So she had to find herself again. So Martin Giovi Debbie asked him this is while they're living together if he would kill Aaron Smith. Hey, you're Italian

You know how to do stuff like this Would you kill my brother-in-law for me? And she asked him about three or four times to do this, by the way. And he said, I'm not fucking killing your brother-in-law. What's wrong with you? What the fuck is wrong with you two? Why does everybody think people from New York murder people? I don't murder nobody. I mean, you know, for a reason, but I don't know this fucking guy So that's what happened now. Let's head to tan fastic tanning salon That's tan fastic someone named their tanning salon

Which I don't know if that's the most creative name for a tanning salon or the absolute stupidest fucking name for a tanning salon I've ever heard tan fastic tanning Somebody was drunk and said it. That sounds tan-fast-ic. That is going to be tan-fast-ic. Oh, shit. That's a great name for a tanning salon. Hey, are there any tanning salons around here? No? I'd like...you want an open one? Okay.

Tan-fast-ic. Let's do it. So, tan-fast-ic tanning salon, Sandra Strange is the person running the Tanfastic Tanning Salon. She doesn't run some. Sandy Strange. Some dom thing.

I was gonna say, she sounds like she's running a wicca group. That's what she sounds like she's running. She's the coven leader. Or a nut-strinkling. Yeah. Nut-stomping videos she makes on the internet. That's what she does at night. I mean, she's gotta make a living, you know?

So Sharon said that she was the manager of the tanning salon that Denise Smith now, back to Denise, not Debbie, Denise Smith frequented from May of 97 to July of 97. So when the sun is out in the summer, that's when she goes and gets a tan in a booth, which makes no fucking sense whatsoever. So it was all back up around August.

Yeah, now Strange said that Denise told her that she had marital problems and was going through a divorce. How do you get this from, I'd like the San Tropez thing for 15 minutes. Let me tell you all my business. How does that happen? I made my asshole white and my cheeks brown. Also, I hate my husband.

I hate him. And so she knew all about it. So she's literally telling everyone, like the mailman knows all about it. Okay, no, just I got to get the rest of my route. I'm sorry. I don't want to hear about it anymore. She said that Denise told her that the couple was battling for custody and that Strange also said on one occasion, Denise Smith asked her if quote, this is a

quote from Strange, I knew anybody who could do a job for her. This is the Tanfastic tanning lady. This is not any, there's no evidence that she has any underworld connections or desire to kill. Welcome to Tanfastic. Do y'all kill people? Do y'all kill people or is it just Tan and which one? That's a bigger swing and a miss than the whites at Taco Bell. I'll take, I'll take 20 minutes in the San Tropez room.

I'ma buy me the pink pair of them little glasses that go over your eyes, don't burn your retinas out and y'all kill people here. No? All right then just the tanning and the glasses. Matter of fact not even the glasses just the tanning now. What the fuck? I gotta save some money for the hitman I hire. Lesson y'all do it. Yeah, that's a thing you do. And so Strange said and I asked her what kind of job she wanted done and she said man, I hire less than y'all do it. Yeah, that's the thing you do. And so Strange said, and I asked her what kind of job she wanted done. And she said she would like to have her husband taken care of. Strange is like, you mean tan?

You'd like him to be tanner? I can take care of that. Like no problem. You could bring him in. I'll tan him right up. So get your husband a happy ending. Oh, no, no, no. I want that happy ending for me.

So after Denise Smith told her she wanted her husband killed, strange said, one, we don't do that here. Yeah, that's not on the menu. That's a and B that you quote, need to be careful who you're talking to and that this kind of talk could get you in a lot of trouble. You know, conspiracy to commit murder is kind of a fucking big deal. The state takes it super seriously. It's weird.

It's not it's not murder level charges, but it's pretty goddamn close. It's the same thing. It's the same shit. Yeah, it's close. Especially if you are certain to act on it. They'll get the same thing. If you're actively asking people if they will take money to kill your husband,

that's an active conspiracy. You can get life for that for sure. Yeah, fuck yeah. They set up people with a hit man who's a cop and they do a sting operation. That bitch is getting 25 years for that shit. So she said that Denise did not mention the marriage again for the next couple of weeks.

So she was like, okay, I gotta dry well here that I'm digging with this broad. She's not helping. But then brought pictures to show Sandra Strange that the children had been abused by Aaron, I guess brought pictures of the actual pictures, bruises, I think. Yeah. Strange said that at some point, Denise called her and told her that the court awarded Aaron custody of the children that she was going to quote, take the kids to Florida and run with them and that if she had to kill him in the process, she would. Yeah, so we walked out for two weeks, so probably in three. Cancel your Wednesday is what you're telling me?

I don't know what you mean. Why are you telling me? I'm the tanning booth lady. If you need a tan-fastic tan, I'm your fucking chick. Otherwise, I got nothing for you. No, no, I said, thank you for calling tan-fastic. Yeah, no, fucking, this isn't marriage counseling. I'm running to Florida! And I might kill my husband. Thank you for calling tan-fastic! Okay.

I'm completely ignoring a court order and running to Florida. Oh, and I might commit murder. So three o'clock on Thursday. Or did you want the two? That was the message I left. Did you want to move to two? So you're saying you're going to be busy until three? I don't know what's going on

This like code and casino what's happening right now? I don't get called mr. Mr. Happy. I don't know what that is what's going on So she Then said Denise told her that Aaron physically abused her and the children and she said that Aaron had stuck a pencil lead in Joshua's leg and stabbed him with a pencil or something, which would be horrible if it's true, obviously. Stabbed her Down syndrome son with a pencil? Down syndrome child with a pencil.

Yeah. Wow. That's obviously extreme. Yeah, you shouldn't stab any children with a pencil really yeah. Wow. That's obviously extreme. That's fucked up. Yeah, you shouldn't stab any children with a pencil, really, but especially Down syndrome children, because they probably can't help whatever they're doing. Severe disabilities? Let's not stab them with anything.

Let's at least give a little bit of leeway on this shit. You know what I mean? Don't be that strict. Yeah, perhaps he can't do 11 pull-ups, stop it. Jesus Christ. So yeah, she, by the way, and strange again, said that all of this that she was told over months, I'm gonna kill him, do you know anyone who'll kill him?

No, I don't. I'm gonna run away to Florida and then maybe also kill him. She said she never took any of Denise's statements seriously. Just thought she was blowing off steam, which is what people think. She's blowing off steam. Just taking her tanfastic money and telling her to get the fuck out of here.

Fuck out of here, yeah, you look tanfastic. Now fuck off, leave me alone. Tanfastic, I was like, that's the greatest shit I ever heard. So now a couple weeks before the custody hearing, about a week before the custody hearing, here we go. Charles Jack Snyder, let's bring him into the story. He works at the post office in Gatlinburg here in Tennessee.

He got a phone call from a man named Carl Sanders. Carl Sanders said, Hi, I'm Carl Sanders. I'm from Bismarck, North Dakota, and I'm calling from a payphone. Now you're going, this is not who the fuck are these people, right? What difference does this make? Well, Bismarck, North Dakota guy told Snyder, the post office guy, that an express mail package containing drugs and address to an Aaron Smith would be coming to the post office. He supplied, even supplied the postal guy with

the special delivery tracking number of the package. Yeah, it is this exact package. Now when the package arrived as said, is there like, yeah, who who knows if this guy's just talking out his ass, but the package with that number arise for an Aaron Smith. So Snyder, the post office guy gives the parent package to a guy named Scott Ginzel, who is the acting supervisor, and they contact the postal inspectors to check it over. Because there's been a tip. Now Russell Fallis is the postal inspector. Fallis. Cosby's. Fallis. It's a lot today. It's a lot. Is it not? It's a lot today. It's a lot.

Is it not? I couldn't believe when I saw him. Like his name is Russell Fallis. Really? I'd shoot myself in the face. Oh Rustic, that's your name? Fallis? From Cocke County.

Hi, I'm Russell Fallis from Cocke County. Nice to meet you. Right in the fucking eyeball. Wow. No. That's your... If that's your last name, you don the fucking eyeball. Wow. No. That's just... If you had that's your last name, you don't fucking carry that name.

No, no. Let it go. You change it. So Fallas said he went to Gallenburg to investigate an alleged shipment of drugs, contacted Randy Parton, I assume Dolly's son is all I can imagine here, and Richie McMahon, agents with the Fourth Judicial Task Force here to assist agents with the fourth judicial task force here to assist him with the investigation they need eight guys to open up a package and see if there's drugs in there apparently when phallus gets to the post office

fucking too messent as can be by the way just really engorged here he spoke with Charles Schneider and got the information about the phone call phallus examined the package addressed to Aaron Smith, Earthquake Museum International, 653 Parkway, Gatlinburg, Tennessee, 37738. The package was from an S. Jones, that's the name, S. Jones, 1411 Peachtree Circle, Atlanta. Yep. Now they later discovered that that address does not exist, 1411 Peach Tree Circle, which is shocking because every street, every street in Atlanta is a peach tree.

I've said this before, but I went with Sarah to a show, to a live show we were doing. We went to our hotel, which was whatever the fuck on Peach Tree, went there. We were at the wrong fucking hotel. the other hotel wasn't down the street it Was on the other side of the city same fucking street same hotel ridiculous same address same address crazy shit so anyway They ended up determining that the package was not mailed from Atlanta, Georgia

That's the return address, but it was mailed from dr. Martin Luther King Post Office in Miami, Florida. So it's coming from Miami. Experience in person, the unsettling true stories behind the Dr. Death podcast at Exhibit C Live presents Dr. Death, A Closer Look. This live tour experience brings you face to face with accounts of doctors who caused irreparable harm, the system that failed to protect their patients, and the heroes who stopped them. You'll hear from me, Laura Beal, reporter and host of the Dr. Death podcast, along with our panel of experts and whistleblowers. It's hosted by Suspects, Matthew Scherr.

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And I'm Sarah Hagge. And we're the host of Scamfluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away. We've covered stories like a Shark Tank-certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit filed by Larry King, and no real product to push. He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together

while stealing from them behind their backs. To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Giudice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame. Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad-free right now on Wondry+. My name is Payne Lindsay and I host a true crime podcast called Up and Vanished. My new season has taken me to the remote town of Nome, Alaska, where two people have gone

missing. I'm convinced they were murdered, and someone in this town is covering it up. We came back without my son. I want you to find him. The roommate lied about his whereabouts Saturday night. I know he's murdered. I know he is. I want to find my brother.

Everything about this points to a homicide. I invite you to be a fly on the wall for the most intense real-time murder investigation you'll ever hear in a podcast. Hi Payne, would you like to solve a murder? Receiving cryptic messages from a random stranger. I want to stay anonymous. I'm scared. Are you ready to get your hands dirty? From Tinderfoot TV, Up and Vanished season four is available now. Listen for free on Apple podcasts. So they he said he didn't open the package immediately because he needed a search warrant to make it legal and all official and stuff. So he posed as a postal carrier, Russell Fallis here, posed as a postal

carrier and delivered the package to Aaron Smith at the Earthquake Museum, which was his work in there. As Fallis approached Smith, Smith was sitting at the entrance to the Earthquake Museum ride taking tickets and money. So that's what he's doing, there's a ride. Phallus asked, are you Aaron Smith? And Aaron Smith said yes. He said, I have a package. Aaron Smith signed for the package and Phallus walked away.

He saw Smith open the package and at that point, task force agents burst out of the bushes and trees and swarmed Aaron Smith. And they identified themselves as narcotic agents and Fallis returns and identifies himself as a postal inspector. Ha ha, penis in disguise. He didn't know.

I fooled you. I fooled you, yeah. So they identify, Smith immediately yelled, I've been set up, what the fuck? And then called for his boss, hey, help me, get over here. So Smith allowed Phallus and the agents to examine the inner envelope found in the package. They found, quote, two extremely small Ziploc bags, so little like dime bags, that had a yellowish whitish powder substance in them

Now the writing on the inner envelope read to Aaron Smith next time the price goes up Okay So they do your math enjoy. Yeah, there you go. Enjoy but next time gonna be more expensive chief So then the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation lab identified the substance as being cocaine-based. It's a coke, you know, stepped on coke. So Fallis sends the package and the inner envelope to Memphis to be checked for fingerprints. Okay, maybe we can find out who sent it and get the whole picture here.

Bobby Ewing of the Memphis Crime Lab examined the package. By the way, Aaron Smith is never going to be arrested for this. Really? For a reason. Now, the forensic latent print analyst, who is Bobby Ewing here for the US Postal Service in Memphis Laboratory, he said he examined the express delivery package and he said that he found no readable prints on the package itself. However, he found five readable prints on the package itself. However, he found five readable prints

on the label of the package. Oh. This could be postal workers, this could be whoever. So he said he received a ten-roll fingerprint card here later on, and they determined that the latent fingerprints found on the original label of the package were, now I'm gonna give you this ahead of time,

just so you know, because they don't find this out to later, but the fingerprints on the original label of the package. Now I'm going to give you this ahead of time, just so you know, because they don't find this out until later, but the fingerprints on the original label of the package are Debbie Graham. Really? Not Denise, Debbie. Debbie's sending him coke. Debbie's sending him coke. Okay. He also developed fingerprints from the inner envelope and found that six latent fingerprints of value for identification purposes also belonged to Debbie Graham. Now he said while other smudges or impressions were on the materials he examined, all latent

prints that were of value for identification purposes belonged to one person, Debbie Graham. That's it. And Debbie sent in the shit from Miami? Apparently, even though she lives in New York now July 15th Well, we'll find out who sent it actually cuz we'll know exactly who sent it July 15th 1997 is the custody hearing This was all right before the custody hearing So convenient yes, and now Denise with her faked drawing and This weird thing that's happening now

custody of Brittany and Joshua is granted to fake drawing and this weird thing that's happening now, custody of Brittany and Joshua is granted to Aaron. They give the kids to Aaron, which is honestly surprising. Yeah, dads don't usually get, if moms want it, very few victories. Yeah, if moms want it, usually dads don't get it unless the mom is a fucking disaster. You know, it's the only way. She's gotta be like, clearly using the kids as a...

The kids have to be in danger of some kind. They have to be being used for a check so that mom can be using that money for drugs. Or like a lookout while she sells crack somewhere. Or she sucks dicks in a parking lot. One of the two or three. So now Aaron goes to pick up the kids since he won custody of the kids. He's like, I want to pick up my prize here. As he pulls up, he sees Denise speeding away with them in the car. Oh, so he's like, okay,

I'm not, I'm not going to give chase here. Like it's going to be dangerous for my kids. So later on he told somebody else, and this is how it's summarized. His wife had left the state with his children. He didn't know where they were. It was suggested that they take out an arrest warrant for custodial interference. It's kidnapping at this point. Yeah, that's absolutely what it is.

Yeah, this is most kidnapping is this, you know, in the world. So now July 17th, 1997, this is two days later. She's not gone yet. She just took off from there, but she's still in the area because Denise came to the dental office to pick up her check on the 17th. Everybody said she appeared upset and shaken. Her car was packed full.

Her father was with her in another vehicle. And that when she asked Denise where she was going, Denise said that she couldn't tell us and we don't want to know Wow, okay, and I go you're absolutely right I sure have a good time as fucked up someone ever says that I'm never like no tell me I'm like Oh, really you have no idea how you just hit the fucking nail on the head. I don't I don't need or want to know No, no, I don't. So that is July 17th and then she's poof gone. Yeah. Aaron can't find the kids. He's talking about

he's talking to the cops about having some sort of warrant put out for her to get the kids back and all this type of shit. It was be one thing if she disappeared for a couple days, but it's like a week is going by and where are the kids. So July 23rd 1997, Harry Smith, Aaron's father, he leaves his home at about 420 p.m. but Aaron wasn't home at the time and Aaron was, remember Aaron's living with them now. So he wasn't home. Later on, Harry returned at 6 o'clock at p.m. and he found a shoe sitting on a little rock wall that ran along the walkway. A shoe sitting there, which wasn't there at 430 or 420. So that's odd. As he drove up the walkway, he looks and sees Aaron laying on the sidewalk. He's

like, that's fucking strange. So he got out of the truck and sees that Aaron is covered in blood and there's blood everywhere and he's not moving and looks like he's in bad shape. So Harry runs inside, calls 911 and when he runs inside to call 911, he notices that the house is completely turned upside down. Ransacked beyond ransacking. Every fucking drawer is pulled out, thrown on the floor shit scattered everywhere Someone went through this it looks like the cops raided the place and tossed two hours in two hours. It's yeah. Yeah an hour 40 It's actually so he does that as he waited for the police to arrive he was careful not to touch anything because

Aaron seems dead outside and my whole house is ransacked so obviously fingerprints are going to be of the essence here. So Harry Smith noticed that someone had removed the covering from an air vent even. That's how much it was ransacked. I have so much to look in. He found it strange because he used to hide his money in the wall like that in and behind an air vent when he used to live in Florida. He said he used to do that Harry. So he's like that's strange because he used to hide his money in the wall like that in and behind an air event when he used to live in Florida.

He said he used to do that, Harry. So he's like, that's strange. He doesn't now, but someone thought they knew that. So they're like, this has to, might be somebody I know that did this. You know what I mean? He said that Aaron and Denise knew about his practice of hiding money in the air vent. That was a known thing within the family, but not outside the family. He also, Harry notices that he had a.357 Magnum pistol.

He normally stored it under a table in the garage, which is great when you have two kids running around. Also a useless ass place to keep, unless that garage is like two steps from your bed you have a chance of having a down syndrome having eight-year-old get a hold of a 357 Which sounds like the beginning of a mad lib. Yeah, that's Insane yeah, that's how I found Weaponry when I was a child and yes fucking hand apart exactly we all found crazy shit like that. Yeah hand apart. Exactly. We all found crazy shit like that. Yeah. Um,

he also Smith notices that three of his watches are missing along with other jewelry, including shit for his wife's jewelry and some of his stuff too. So there's been a robbery here as well. So Robert Caldwell, who's the chief detective of the Coq County Sheriff's department, he said that he went to Camp Wright Acres to investigate the murder of Aaron Smith. He arrived at the home, he saw the body of Aaron Smith lying on the walkway leading to the house and he requested, number one, an autopsy obviously to find out what's going on and also requested that the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation Crime Investigation team help with the investigation.

Which I love this. I love that someone said, I'm a small time place, a small time department. This is over my head help. So we don't overrun this. I'm the big dick in Cot County and I need a bigger dick around here. I need a bigger dick. Is there a dick in balls County somewhere? But we don't, we see this so often where these small town people try to take

territorial, this is our thing and the mayor shows up and starts kicking over evidence and it's a fucking disaster. This guy said, it's hubris and ego, right? That does that. Yeah. It's like, well, capable of this. No, you're not. No. And even if you are, more help is better. Yeah. People that know that do this more often probably do it better than you. So they do that and they figured out the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation guys said that we figured this happened somewhere between 4 and 5 o'clock because he was found at 6 o'clock by his father and he looked like he'd been there for a little while. We just did some very obvious shit here and figured at that time.

Somewhere between 4, 20 and 5 would be the best way to put it, they did it. So Aaron's wounds and the location where he was found led the investigators to believe a confrontation had started inside the home, and Aaron was running away from his attacker outside, and that's when he was shot, because he shot in the back first. In the back, that's so pussy. Chicken shit. Shot in the back with a. the back. That's so pussy. Chicken shit.

Shot in the back with a.357 too. Ah, Jesus. So the autopsy comes, they found three gunshot wounds on Aaron's body. Two to the head and one to the trunk. Which is highly unnecessary with a hand cannon like that. I shot a can, James, with one of those. An empty can.

It disintegrates. And it just exploded It just disintegrates. Yeah It's crazy. That's a Ridiculous weapon. It's huge so the guy they discover that one head wound destroyed Aaron's brain and Served as the only immediate lethal wound to his body and served as the only immediate lethal wound to his body. The second wound entered the,

and these are not in terms of which, like in order of when they happen, this is in order of the way they're classifying them. The second wound, which entered in the front portion of the right ear, went through the ear and was not lethal and hit no vital structures. It just kinda tore the skin and kind of maybe a little bit of skull away, but not brain.

Didn't hit brain. The third wound, which was also not lethal, entered the top rear portion of the body at waist level and exited through the front right side of his chest. The throat. Cleaned through and through. Through and through with a 357, you got a good chance of those through and throughs.

There's a lot of burn though. Yeah, absolutely. So they said that by this testimony, Aaron received two gunshot wounds from the back, shots to the head and waist, and one from the front, the shot to the ear. Wow. Now, three times with the 357 is fucking a lot,

and it's, man, and that's so loud too. So one went through his ear from behind like when he was running and then another one went through his back. That's the front. Through his chest. The ear shot was from the front. Wow.

So that might have happened, they're thinking in the house possibly and he ran outside. Then he shot him in the back and then came up and shot to the head. And that's the one that killed him. Finished him off, that's what they're thinking. Once he knocked him down with the shot above the waist, that's when he came up and fucking finished him off,

which is cold blooded as fuck. It's unbelievable. This is cold, man, this is a brutal killing. So at the scene here, TBI, Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, I'll just say that from now on, because it's way easier. TBI forensic scientists said that she was a member of the violent crime response team that went to Camp Wright Acres to document, preserve,

and collect the evidence. And when they arrived, she saw a walkway leading to the front of the house and another entrance through the garage. They said that someone had removed Aaron's body before her team arrived at the scene. Why would they do that? She said, someone, I came to look at through it,

yeah, and someone had moved it. So they were like, great, the fucking body's gone now? The body's the last thing to go. Yeah. Like everything else gets classified, then they go, okay, we can get him out of here. The family's oftentimes very disgusted with how long that body has to stay there. But it has to.

If you read like the homicide book, the David Simon book, the cops say continuously, they very rarely ever, and meaning never, have a regret that they stayed with the crime scene too long. But they have a million times they're regretting. They fucking too soon, they release the fucking scene because there's a lot of pressure and a lot of things going on. They said, you have to block that out, ignore it,

and say, we're not leaving until we understand this and get everything we can out of this shit. They didn't do that here. So her team had to use yellow markers to mark the location of evidence before they packaged it and They marked the evidence outside the home then entered the interior of the home through the garage They got evidence and pictures and all that kind of shit shit They collected a sample of reddish brown stains, which were human blood a spent bullet and a handgun

Which was the handgun from which the spent bullet was fired. Oh. The gun was in a different spot, but it was still there. It wasn't taken. Left. That gun wasn't taken, but others were, as we'll talk about. So they also found a pair of handcuffs on a chair in the living room of the home. Uh-oh.

A pair of handcuffs. And they asked Harry, are these handcuffs that belonged to anybody in your family? He said, fuck no, never saw them before in my life. No, we get down different kind of kinky. Yeah. We go to the dentist around here. We're in a tanning booths and dentists and shit. You don't understand it.

It's a whole other thing. So they said that also several pieces of clothing and other articles were scattered around the house. Harry Smith said he never saw the handcuffs before and that the handcuffs didn't belong to anybody else in the family. Now, the fingerprint examiner with the TBI testified that, which sounds like traumatic brain injury,

I'm saying over and over now. Wow, there's that too. That's what it is, yeah. He said that he examined evidence taken from the Smith home and said that he examined the 357 Magnum found and said that he examined the.357 Magnum found at the crime scene, but no readable latent fingerprints were found on the gun, which is very common, very common. So he said he could not say whether the fingerprints

had been wiped off or someone had gloves on or who knows. So as we learned a couple weeks ago, open that cylinder, pull those shells and see what's on those. That's the thing. But I think the gun was already loaded. So he said, Oh, it's the dad's gun, right? The dad's gun. They were unable to recover any readable latent fingerprints from the handcuffs found on the

scene as well. So someone's got gloves on is what I'm going to get to here. So of all the evidence he found four identifiable fingerprints anywhere and they all belong to Aaron Smith, which he lived there, obviously. So they asked Harry, did you see anyone before you left or when you left at 420, did you see anybody lurking around? And he said that he was working on the road by the gate and never saw anyone come in or

out of the campgrounds when he was there. Now on this day, Denise called, by the way, called Harry, called the scene, said she was Denise and asked about Aaron, but he just, the dad just gave the phone to agent Davenport of the TBI. Officer, that's for you. You explain it. Yeah. And now other people here, witnesses in the campground, saw a white sedan, pretty new, late model white sedan, cruising around the campground around 5 p.m. with two passengers inside. Campground was protected by a front gate, which was only accessible with a card or a

passcode, so whoever was in the car knew how to get in, you know, without having to break a fucking gate down or anything. Now investigators start hearing about Aaron and Denise's marital problems that they just had a custody hearing a week ago. They hear about the drug thing in the post office and all that and they're starting to go, we got to talk to Denise, where the fuck is she? Well, she's on the phone. Good news. Good news. Well, while they were talking to Harry Smith, Denise called, exactly, and said she was in Florida.

The cop said, well, get your ass back to Tennessee post-haste, because we got to talk to you. And they said, this is Brittany, the daughter, who was with her mother. Quote, when the investigator told her my dad was dead, he said he got no response out of her. She just listened. She just kept listening.

She responded like Scott Peterson for Christ's sake, just like, yeah, weird. I don't know. She responded like when telemarketers call me, they go, hi, this is so and so from so and so and I just sit there. Yeah. And, and, yeah. Turns out she left for Florida on July 17th when she left work getting her check

and her dad was outside in a separate car and they had all their car packed, they went to Florida. Now here is Brittany's account of this. Brittany is 10 years old, 11 years old at this point. She said, two days after the court had granted custody of her and her brother to Aaron, Denise took them to Florida to see Debbie. Which was weird because her mom hates Debbie.

Also, her grandfather, Don Graham, accompanied them. They drove through the night on the 17th and arrived at a motel in Miami. At some point they met Debbie and she was with two different men both named George. Which is just a couple of George Foreman's kids. Two guys named George shouldn't hang out together. Oh, we already, they should go, oh, you already have a George in this group, nevermind, can't do it. And also a guy named Alex as well, they met.

They met them behind a place called the Golden Nugget. So. It's only one of those, right? It's in Vegas. It's Vegas. Yeah, this is a different Golden Nugget. So while Denise and Don Graham talked with the men, Debbie took Brittany and Joshua to the beach for about an hour. So Denise's mom stays behind to talk to these guys.

In the back of a golden nugget. Yeah to talk to Denise and her father are going to sit in the back of the golden nugget and talk to two guys named George and a guy named Alex about a murder plot. Okay. Sitting with the Georges go dig a hole on the beach. Yeah and that's what Aunt Debbie's going to take you to the beach now. So that's what they do. They go down there and they go play on the beach or whatever for about an hour. And Brittany said that while they were in Florida, they stayed at the Driftwood Motel. Sounds very class. I'm sure it is.

And during this time, she said her mom purchased another car sometime in here. Now at some point in this, Alex, Debbie and the Georges, both of them, left in Denise's new car and didn't come home for three days. Wow. Which is a long time to just... 72 hours leaving the kids alone in a... No, no, no. Denise is still there. Debbie... Right. Leaving the kids with Aunt Debbie for three days. No, no. Debbie goes in the car. Denise stays with the kids. Oh, okay. She stays with the with the kids. In the car is Alex, Debbie and the Georges. They took Denise's car and took off. Okay. And Denise got a new car. Denise got a new car. That's the new car she got. Now, Brittany said that right before that, that she left on the trip, or I'm sorry, right

before Alex took off with them, the Alex guy, he had handcuffs in his back pocket, which she could identify because she could see the bottom part of the chain hanging out over the pocket. They're sitting above that. Yeah, he just tucks the hooks in there, leaves the chain dangling like it's a wallet chain. Nice. So during the same period, Denise also left for a day. Who's watching the children?

Oh, Don. No, Don left with fucking... With the, with the, with the, with the, No, Don. No, Don's still there. Don's still there, yes, because it was Alex, Debbie, and the Georges that took off, okay. It took a lot of people to keep track of.

My God, there's so many. So Denise leaves for a day. Late one night, Alex comes back with one of the Georges, I don't know where they put the other George, and they get back to the hotel. This is with Aunt Debbie. Aunt Debbie, Alex, and a George pull up here. This is while Brittany and Joshua were asleep. But Brittany said she was awoken by loud talking, because it's a motel room, it's not like they're in a home. A whisper is loud. Yeah, and she overheard her aunt Debbie say

that they hurt somebody. We hurt somebody. And Denise, then Denise said it was easy, and Alex replied, no, we've killed somebody. And that was that. And then she said, she heard her mother say, yeah, and it was easy too, after we killed somebody. So that's what she's hearing.

But Brittany never heard them say who they killed. That didn't come up. She also recalled that before everyone left, remember Alex had those handcuffs in his back pocket, but when she saw him now, he no longer had the handcuffs. No more handcuffs than half a George. Half a George, yep. She said that she noticed Alex was wearing quote,

one of her pawpaw's watches, which is Harry's watch, Aaron's father's watches, watches that she knows is his watch. And that Debbie was wearing a pink ice ring that belonged to her grandma Cleta. Yeah. So they're wearing the fucking jewelry. Go for it, shit, yeah. And he also had this Alex also had Aaron's Swiss Army knife, a knife that she recognized as her dad's. So two days later, Denise takes

the kids to Michigan and runs off. Really? Okay. Yeah. To Michigan where they stay at the home of Brittany's aunt Marion and uncle Jerry. At some point, we'll find out later, Aunt Marion's going to bring Brittany and Joshua back to Tennessee, as we'll talk about. Now Brittany said that they were in Florida for about five days down there. That was it. Now she said that Debbie was with her and Joshua almost every day during the five days they were in Florida. So Aunt Debbie was there and she recalls some of the things

they did in Florida, including going with Denise to rent a car, but she was unable to recall specific activities other than that. She said she first learned of her father's death while in Michigan, so a week after it happened, essentially. Now, or a few days later anyway. They figure out that Denise rented a 1996, a white 1996 by the way, Buick Regal from Alamo Rentals in Miami from July 21st 1997 to July 28th 1997. The mileage on the car

when she rented it was 25,734 when she returned it, it had 28,210 on it. Wow, 3,000 miles in a week. 3,000 miles, 2,500 miles in a week is a lot. What the fuck? Denise signed for the car in her own name, provided her driver's license, home address, work address, all that shit. You know, it wasn't hiding anything. So now Vernon Brown, we'll enter him into the picture.

He and his wife own a lot at Camp Wright Acres, which Aaron had sold to them. So they live there and they know all about the place and they know Aaron and they know Harry and they know everybody. He stated that he was at the campground the day Aaron Smith was killed. He said at about four o'clock that afternoon, give or take, four-ish, he and his wife were walking to the pool when they saw Harry Smith leaving his home, which is his 420 leaving the house.

Then he noticed, this guy noticed, two people sitting at a picnic table on the deck of a trailer. He said he could only see that one person was blonde and wearing shorts. And as he and his wife prepared to leave the pool and bathhouse, they noticed that someone, appeared to be a man, was knocking on Harry Smith's door, which is where Aaron lives, obviously. This was about 15 minutes after they'd been at the pool.

So he said, this guy said he and his wife returned to their trailer, and between 4.30 and 5.00 p.m., he heard three gunshots coming from the direction of Harry Smith's home, which you wouldn't be able to miss 357 rounds. Those are loud. Yeah. And there was some time in between them too. So three is, you know how many it was.

Absolutely. He said he was sure of the time because he and his wife had scheduled to have dinner with some neighbors at 5 PM and it was 5 PM when they arrived at the neighbor's house. So that's how he knew it was between 4 30 and five. It had to be before 5. He also said that because they often heard gunshots around the campgrounds, because there's woods all around there,

he didn't think anything was wrong when he heard three gunshots. He just didn't think anything about it. He said later on though, he learned that someone had been murdered when police came to his neighbor's camper while they were eating dinner and said, hey, anybody hear anything?

He was like, oh shit. Yeah, me. He told the cops that this man he saw knocking on the door was a skinny white male with long dark hair. He also said that the distance from the pool to Harry Smith's house was about 200 feet, which is a good distance to see anybody. And on, on redirect later on on when they go back to him he said that he had also seen a white car parked on one of the lots, a white sedan. And he said that around 5pm he heard a car leaving the campground in a hurry, driving faster than

people normally drive in the campground. And then about 5.15 he learned from the neighbor's daughter that the white car wasn't there anymore. So he's got the whole thing mapped. We know exactly when it happened. That guy's good at this. Now a state trooper in Tennessee named Eddie Pulley, he's pulling from Cot County and fucking, he's going to go hang out with Richard Fallis. So he says that he was working in McKinn County. He said that on July 23rd, 1997 at 741 p.m. This would be about two and a half hours after the murder, he issued a ticket to a David Antonio Rivera of Miami, Florida. He said Rivera was driving a white 1996 four door Buick. Oh. He said that he could not remember Rivera's face or whether Rivera was traveling with one or two females.

Couldn't remember. Now, who is this guy that he gave a ticket to? His name is not David Antonio Rivera. His name is Alejandro Rivera and he goes by Alex. Oh. He's born in 1960. He's one of Debbie's boyfriends. Yeah. One of her many boyfriends because she like live her and Alex both live with other guys but are also fucking

each other on and off. Fascinating. Yeah. So the guy on the in the Florida Department of Law, a special agent Ron rec a po rec Yop I like this guy, in Miami, he said that in 1997 he was contacted by the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation about coming to Florida to do a follow-up investigation on a homicide. So they said that they were looking for information on an Alex, a Deborah Graham, and the activities of Denise Smith while she was in Florida. So they received information from a club owner regarding the tag of a vehicle in which Alex had just left the club. The tag number led agents to a woman named LaShawn Taylor in Miami who is his baby mama and live-in girlfriend, Alex's.

Fantastic. So the agent set up surveillance, which leads them to Alex, okay? Who agrees to help the agents initially in the investigation. Oh. They learned from Alex's driver's license, which was a false ID, and social security card, that his name that he was saying was David Antonio Rivera.

They said that they learned that the address of the license was the same as Lash. He was using his real address, just a fake name on his license. So they also found out that the Martin Luther King post office where the drugs were mailed to Aaron Smith is less than 300 yards away from their address. Very close.

Very close to these two people, to Alex and Lash. Short walk. They conducted their surveillance of the home Very close very close to these two people to Alex and walk was short walk They conducted their sale of their surveillance of the home from the parking lot of the post office. That's how close it is So they said their investigation revealed that someone had taken Debbie to the airport where she boarded a flight to New York Trying to get all these loose ends together here my god All of this Denise is arrested sentence together here. My god. All of this, Denise is arrested. Really? Not for murder. For what? For not handing over the kids in custody. She's arrested for that. She turns herself in to face charges of custodial interference. She claims she had nothing to do with Aaron's

murder. She was in Florida and I was, you know, that's my alibi. It's impossible. I couldn't have. I couldn't have, I was all the way in Florida. And they said, okay, well that's fine, where are your kids? And she said, I'm not telling you. She did a glory vallow. She would not tell the cops where her kids were. Really?

And they're like, are the kids okay? And she's like, yeah, they're fine. They're with somebody, I know where they are, but I'm not telling you where they are. So they're like, okay, then we're gonna hold you on a fuckload of bond. It's a hundred grand bond for this. You're never getting out.

You're not getting out. They said we'll reduce the bond if you tell us where your kids are and get them into our custody. Safe and not wherever the fuck they are. So they said she's ordered to turn the kids over to Aaron Smith's parents who have like emergency custody basically. So that is fucking

wild. She they said that she surrendered to authorities ordered held on $100,000 bond. They said that they'll lower the bond to $7500 if she'll just turn the kids. Give us a goddamn kids lady. Yeah, they then the daughter said this is the daughter that was being hidden, Brittany. She said she held out for a couple days, but they wouldn't let her post bond until she turned us in. She called her aunt and uncle where we were staying and told her to bring us back. And so they did. They drove. That's when they drove from Michigan to Tennessee, the aunt and uncle,

hand the kids over. And this is on the understanding that she also would not leave the court's jurisdiction and must report daily to a probation officer Every day we need you to call us every day now while this is going on till this gets fucking cleared up August 22nd 1997 almost a month goes by oh boy. This is when debbie gets arrested Debbie aunt debbie now They uh, the police officer said a lot of our it came from her new boyfriend who was living with her He told us that she had discussed the burglary and that Aaron had died

She showed him jewelry that had come from the bird from the break-in how dumb can you be? Extremely fucking dumb. Hey, I took off with this guy that I'm fucking also I'm sure you won't be mad at that enough to turn me in for this But we killed the guy and robbed him and here's a jewelry. That's why I'm fucking also. I'm sure you won't be mad at that enough to turn me in for this. But we killed the guy and robbed him and here's the jewelry. That's wild. That's what the guy I'm banging to do some murder. No, you don't. Well, look at this. Fucked man. So they had to travel to New York to find her. A detective with the Port Authority Police Department in New York said that he aided Tennessee investigators with the arrest of Debbie. They arrested her at the home of Martin Giovi in Astoria, Queens. And that's who she's been living with. They said they recovered

a bag of costume jewelry from the home, which contained 11 pieces of jewelry. And they said the 11 pieces described in the bag, they described the bag as a gray colored plastic bag. Cleta Smith, Aaron's mother, identified the jewelry recovered as hers. You bet. And taken the same day Aaron was killed. She also said that several other items were taken from her home including a pink ice ring, which we know where that was, and a Noah's Ark bracelet and a Nikon camera. Okay, this is really bad because murder will get you some shit, but if you steal while you murder Oh, it's worse so much worse. So and she's feeling so much. There's this take everything of value. They yeah, it seems like

So now they get her down. They're gonna sit her down. They're gonna trick Deb a little bit here. This is fun The investigator acknowledged that Initially Debbie told him several times she had not killed anyone. They sat her down, got her in the box, I didn't kill anyone, I didn't kill anyone, which is more of a she's trying to get through this interrogation. And he said that he told Debbie that someone, the cop said that someone had identified her as being at

the campground pool the day Aaron Smith was killed. Yeah. Which was not true. Nobody identified her. But a lot of people don't understand or don't realize this but it is a hundred percent legal to for the police to lie to a suspect in an interrogation. Sure. And 100% legal. And when you say something like that because they don't know that she was there, they don't know that she wasn't there, right? It's just a shot. It's just a swing. It's just a fucking Hail Mary real quick.

It's a spouse saying, I saw you leave in this restaurant with that lady. And you go, it's either, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about, you're crazy. And it gets them on record of adhering to a statement of some sort. Absolutely. And so yeah, you can say, oh, well, you're a co-defendant there. Your partner's in there. He's singing like a bird telling us everything. So we know it all now. You better get the deal before he does. That's perfectly legal. They do the goddamn lie detector thing on a copy machine is legal. So they said that he said that before

Graham gave her a written statement, she said that she and Alex had not gone to Tennessee, but went straight to Michigan to visit friends. However, when they said, someone saw you at the campground pool, Debbie, then she changed her story. Oh no. She waves her Miranda rights and gives the NYPD and this investigator from Tennessee

a signed and written statement. Really? That is as followed, okay signed and written statement. Really? That is as followed, okay. That's all it took. That's it, they tricked her and she knew she fucked up. She went, okay, you got me. Rather than going, no, I wasn't there. How could they do that?

Then it's her word against whoever said they identified her, even if there was someone who said they identified her. But instead she bought it, and she said that she and Alex borrowed the car rented by Denise to travel to Michigan. She said that Alex and Debbie, the two of them, planned to stop in Tennessee to pay a visit to Aaron. For what?

What? Debbie said that Alex wanted to teach Aaron Smith a lesson, quote unquote, because Alex had heard that Aaron was abusive to Denise and the children. Which by the way, we have no idea if that's true or not. No clue, yeah, no evidence. No evidence either way of that. So Debbie Graham used Denise's gate entry card

to gain entrance to the campgrounds and show Alex where Aaron Smith lived. So Debbie said that Alex stayed at the campground for about 10 minutes, then Alex drove Debbie back to Gatlinburg and let her out in front of the Ramada Inn, where they're staying. So Debbie said she thought Alex was just going to talk to Aaron and ask him if he wanted

to fight someone besides women and children. You wanna fight somebody your own size? So Alex returned two hours later to the Ramada Inn, pale and upset, she said, just all sorts of fucked up. Latin fella went straight pale. So clear, yeah. He's in his veins. He's definitely like a darker guy, too, in this picture.

He's a darker, darker guy, yeah. He was pale. He was pale, that guy. He's from the Dominican Republic.. Fantastic. He was pale. He was pale. That guy. He's from the Dominican Republic. He made a Dominican man pale. So as they drove toward the interstate, Alex told Debbie that he had gone back to the Smith house and entered through the garage, as he was told to.

As Alex was going through the house, he said he found several guns. Then he said, Aaron returned home unexpectedly and surprised me. He rolled up on me and hear him come and see him coming. So Alex told Debbie that he, meaning Aaron, surprised me and quote I had to cap him. Had to. Had to. He said he shot Aaron three times and then went back into the house to make it look like a burglary. But he didn't make it look like a burglary. He actually stole everything. He just burgled.

To make it look like a burglary, I burgled my ass off. I just figured I'd steal everything. Most of the time when people do that, they just grab stuff and throw it. We always kick a trash can over and walk out. But at the same time, this was a successful, People did think it was a burglary, obviously. Because he definitely burglary. He said that he threw two handguns into the woods and kept one handgun for himself. So Debbie said after she could, after that, she said she couldn't go to Michigan.

So they returned to Florida. She said after I can't go to Michigan now. Just take me back to Florida. So when they arrived at the Driftwood Inn Motel in Miami, she discovered that her father, Don, Denise, and the Smith children had gone back to Tennessee to turn themselves into police and that she herself returned the rental car, which we know isn't true because Brittany said she was there when they got back. She told the investigator that Alex said if she ever told what he had or what he had, what he had and then dot dot dot what he had done that she that he would let his boys know

when they would take care of her whole family. I'll let my boys know and they'll kill everybody. You think I'm bad. What do you mean? Always you think I'm a bad criminal. Where do you meet them?. You think I'm a bad criminal. Wait till you meet them. They're awful at this. So Debbie said that she never saw Alex with any of the jewelry after he killed Aaron,

but she said that he had given her a gray plastic bag containing several gold necklaces and bracelets, which he had planned to give to his girlfriend, LaShawn Taylor. What a guy. Nice. What a, just a fucking. Gentleman. He's a real prince, this guy, I'll tell you, son. He got you some jewelry, babe. Why is it loose in a gray bag?

Why is it loose in an Arby's bag? What's happening? Don't worry about that. You dig deep, you'll find the horsie sauce. That's a real treat. That goes right on that Noah's Ark bracelet. Don't worry about it. So, Debbie also said on the way to Florida

Alex got a speeding ticket in McMinn County, which we knew about So she said the last time she saw Alex was on August 2nd 1997 when LaShawn Taylor his girlfriend took her to the my took Debbie to the Miami Airport to get a flight to New York Okay, so they bring in LaShawn Taylor here. Here we go. She said that she and Alex have a son together and they lived together for a short time in Miami. She said she met Debbie during the summer of 1997 before Alex and Debbie went to Tennessee

together. She said she was jealous of Debbie's relationship with Alex because she suspected they were having an affair, you know, because they're two adults doing a bunch of shit together that's not work related. Yeah, that's an affair. So she said that when Alex and Debbie left town together, it was her understanding that they were driving to Michigan for a job interview. That is some game. Imagine. Wow. Guys.

We're just driving to Michigan for an interview. Imagine trying to convince, convince your significant other. Right. That you and this other broad are just going to take a fucking five day car trip together just for a job interview, but there's no hanky panky going on here. From the south, from the southernest tip of the United States to damn near the northernest. We're going to do it all here. Now Taylor, the girlfriend, stated that after they left, she received a phone call from

Alex and he said they were in Tennessee helping Debbie Graham's sister move out of her house. So we had to stop off in Tennessee and help him move. So she also said that they were gone for about three days when he came back home and finally. Now after they came back to Miami, Debbie and Alex, Taylor, the girlfriend, next saw Debbie when Debbie came to their home in a white car to see Alex. Alex went outside to talk with Graham while the girlfriend waited at the door. So now she's watching him talk to his fuck buddy here. Whatever she is.

Taylor said that Debbie Graham came in the white car, like we said, and she heard Alex tell Debbie, get the car out of here, or get in the car and get out of here, and she left. Basically, take this car and fucking get it out of here or get in the car and get out of here and she left basically take this car and fucking get it away from don't let this thing be seen near me anymore don't connect murder and murder vehicle please thank you so Taylor said that she saw Debbie again when she came to the house and spent the night Debbie spent the night at their house because she didn't have

anywhere else to sleep well you ain he ain't sleeping here. I don't care where the fuck you go. Right? Taylor said she remembered that one night, Alex and Debbie were talking and that every time Taylor entered the room, they would stop talking immediately. Which she thought was, she was hoping was about fucking, turns out it was about murder, which is worse. Which is worse to find out. You're fucking someone or murdering with people. Yeah, I knew this relationship was over

Yeah, no shit the next time Taylor saw Debbie Debbie stayed two nights at the home During this day he said she said they were very secretive always talking Going to pay phones, you know whispering whispering, she said. Real secret of shit. Is this what jewelry gets you? You buy somebody jewelry, they just forget everything? Everything flies out the window. That's right, she's gone. Taylor said that Graham was also constantly calling

her father, who we know was involved in all this, and at least in the taking the kids plot. Taylor said that one day she took Debbie Graham to the airport and Debbie said she was going to New York and several days after he left, after she left, Debbie left, the police stopped Taylor and Alex there and Taylor said that the Florida driver's license carried by Alex, or Alex's picture,

but the name on the license was actually Alex's brother's name. So it's a real person. He just uses brother's name. He Taylor also said that on the day she and Alex were stopped by the police, Alex produced a false identification in the name of David Rivera and that after he was with police, he came to her work and got her car. Then at the end of the workday, he picked her up and took her to her mother's house she said that after he left her mother's house and said he would be right back he never came back here stay here I'll be right back peace out the next time she saw him is like

two years later at a murder trial wow Wow. This is from, I'll be right back. I'll be right back in Cock County. See you in court and then I wonder why this broad's testifying against you. Gee, I wonder why. That is fucking wild. So he said that, she also said that she and Alex went to a pawn shop on 79th Street. She said at the pawn shop, Alex retrieved some of the items that he had pawned earlier in the month. One piece that he retrieved was a Noah's Ark bracelet. He pawned the stolen shit and then

fuck it. Probably got little animal charms on it. And then fucking was like, I probably shouldn't leave that in a pawn shop since it's, you know, murder evidence and all. And it's got my name attached to it. And went and got it. Was there a crime committed? As far as I'm concerned, there wasn't. Guilty by Design dives into the wild story

of Alexander and Frank, interior designers who in the 80s landed the jackpot of all clients. We went to bed one night and the next morning we woke up as one of the most wanted people in the United States. What are they guilty of? You can listen to Guilty by Design exclusively and ad free on Wondry Plus. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple podcasts, or Spotify.

She struck him with her motor vehicle. She had been under the influence that she left him there. In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lovers quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask. Was it a crime of passion?

If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling. This was clearly an intentional act. And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia. Or a corrupt police cover-up. If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a coverup to prevent one of their own from going down. Everyone had an opinion, and after the 10-week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. Law and crime presents the most in-depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen. You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Now Robert Lata, an employee at the Cash in Pond shop in Miami said that Alex pawned an Elgin pocket watch, a gold Noah's Ark bracelet, two women's freeform rings and a Nikon camera. Everything. Everything.

He said also that it was David Antonio Rivera, was the name on the license, that pawned this. The Elgin was a non-go watch a 10 karat gold Noah's Ark bracelet two women's freeform rings and a Nikon camera model ZT 400 So yeah, the Alex then retrieved those items August 7th, 1997 So now they go back to Martin Giovi here. Hey Marty, let's talk about Debbie, her New York boyfriend. She's got boyfriends all up and down the coast this one. She's like an NBA player.

She's so hot. I got him in Miami, I got him in New York, I got him all up and down. She's got him in different area codes, James. Yes she does, fucking dipshits, not hoes. Dipshits. I got dipshits. It's an entirely different Nate Talks song.

Totally different fucking song. So he said that he and Debbie previously lived together and during that time, like we said, he was asked to kill Aaron Smith three or four times, but said no. He said that Debbie requested that he, quote, go down there and kill him. Which, luckily for Aaron, he was just like,

I'm not going to Tennessee, fuck you. Pizza's terrible down just like I'm not going to Tennessee fuck you Pizza's terrible down there. I'm not going I ain't fucking going You you name me one half. I'm talking half decent field palm sandwich I could get anywhere near that fucking place, and I'll do it. I doubt it exists though Do you know that I have dopes? I have dopes in different area I have dopes? I have dopes in different area codes. Different dopes. Yo, no shit. Go out here and kill him. He said that he then went to jail for unrelated shit. Yeah, because he's Marty from Queens. He's Marty

from Queens. By the way, later on he'll say that he has quite a lengthy criminal record in the jail for all sorts of shit. So that's, but not murder, apparently. When he got out of jail and upon his release in 97, he and Debbie Graham began living together again in New York. They had lived together before and now they're back together again. He said that while Graham was living with him in New York in August of 97, she was constantly using a payphone to call her father and sister. A payphone. Unbelievable. In what year? Yeah, 97 which is totally fair. That's the only way to do it.

But that's I don't want to make a call for my house because my phone might be tapped. Payphone. Yeah. So she, Marty here also said that she behaved nervously and that he finally asked her what the fuck is wrong with you? What's your deal? You're going out, you're doing, what are you doing? Making phone calls and whispering and... It's your fucking problem. Are you in Goodfellas?

What's going on? Like, what is happening? And that Debbie told him, quote, it's finally done. And he said, yeah, by the way, I'm doing the Italian fuck you. What do you mean? Go on. Yeah. And what's done?

And she replied, Aaron is dead. So he said that she told him that she and Don Graham had paid someone to kill Aaron, who's the father. Me and dad killed someone to pay to kill my brother-in-law who is married to my sister who I hate. Yeah. Very strange. The person that I hate the most, I did him the most favor.

Yeah, they hate each other on little things. The biggest favor on the planet. But when something's big. And poor Don was probably like, my girls are finally getting along. It's over, murder, but they're getting along. And that's good. That's good, beggars can't be choosers.

Yeah. I brought this all together. All I needed was hitman money. I wish I would have known this years ago. Their mother would be so proud. So proud. Too bad she's not alive to see this. So he also, Marty, he testifies that Graham Debbie told him that she had gone to Aaron's

home with a man from Florida and that they had shot Aaron in the driveway or on the walkway. I got a Florida man. Pretty fucking accurate. Got a Florida man. Where can we find a guy to do this who has no conscience, soul, or anything? Every day in the newspaper, there's one. It always says Florida man. There he is.

Go get him. If you just drive through Tampa, there's guys on the corner with signs that say we'll kill whoever wherever for anything really go to Tennessee for any jewelry to pawn It's fine for a $300 bracelet Yeah Marty said he was shocked by this news and he left the apartment to get some air and to chill the fuck out He was gone for a couple days. He said when he returned, he saw numerous police officers in front of his house and they were arresting Debbie as the problem. Wow. That was fast. That was real fast. So yeah, I mean, he's just given it up. And then also when the cops

were there, he gave the detective a bag of jewelry that Debbie had given him to keep somewhere, which is the bag, the gray bag. Now later, he also allowed police to return to his apartment and found other jewelry that was there. Come on in, look around, here it is. Now Cleta May Smith, that's Aaron's mom, said she returned to the house after her son was murdered and found that every drawer was taken out and everything was thrown everywhere.

They then showed her the bag of jewels that they got from New York, and she identified it all as hers, and she said much of it she made herself, so she knows it's hers, because I made it with, it's unique, jewelry. It's nothing that can be store bought. It's not a Sears model for a whatever the fucker.

I have arthritis because of that piece. Yeah, I made that shit, so definitely I made it. Further, she said after the murder, she noticed that she was missing her Noah's Ark bracelet, Nikon camera, and big pink ice ring. So they bring Alex in, obviously, here. They're sitting him down. He's with the NYPD. He arrested this guy.

He arrested Alex. Alex isn't arrested for like a year later, by the way. Is that right? It takes a while to build up the case against him. They say when he was arrested, he said his name was Jonathan Rivers. Really? Yeah, which is definitely not his name. Showed a driver's license from the Virgin Islands that confirmed that's his name.

So he can get fake IDs, no problem. They said that while in custody, he's sitting there in custody, he's just muttering to himself, saying really crazy incriminating shit out loud while in custody. Saying repeatedly to himself saying, fucking bitches set me up, fucking bitches repeatedly to himself saying fucking bitches set me up fucking bitches set me up Fucking bitches set me up like angrily and loudly. Yeah, then stating someone's gonna die over this shit Some these bitches said someone's gonna die over this shit. You are in police custody, sir You don't make those wild-ass threats when you're here for murder. For murder.

For at least involvement in a murder. Someone's gonna die over this shit. Fucking bitches set me up. The detective said that, Alex also said, I narrow it down to five. I got five now on my list. I'll make it look like a robbery. He was just saying this to himself. I got five on my list.

I'll make it look like a robbery. I'll kill all these motherfuckers, which is probably two sisters, Don and the Georges, I'm gonna assume. That's probably who those are. Yep, that's what I'm gonna think. So by the way, we don't know what the Georges roles in this work.

Where are the Georges? The Georges left to commit the murder. When they came back, they were one George short of a full drawer of Georges. And there's no talk of George and people saw two people in a car as we'll talk about. So we don't fucking get it, man. So the detective said that Alex also said, I got the piece of the puzzle. He told them this. This is an actual interrogation. And he said, I bet they didn't say their dad was involved. Oh, which none of it. Nobody had said that that was involved, except for Marty, who said that he was told that they

had paid him. So the detective explained that when he arrested Alex, he noticed some tattoos on him and found a handcuff key on his person, but not handcuffs. Hey, where's your cuffs at? Where's your cuffs? So the detective said that the handcuff key did not fit the handcuffs found at the scene of the murder though. Different handcuff key. So they also said this guy just keeps a handcuff key on him in case he gets arrested, I feel

like. I'll bet you're right. That's the thing. And maybe he feels like he can hide it and, you know, that's the thing. You've seen that like spy movies so He said that the detective said it was a couple of days before Alex allowed his fingerprints to be taken I had never heard of that before

If you're if you're under arrest they will pin you the fuck down with eight guys and grab your arm and fucking make you do Fingerprints, there's no allow. Oh wow, though they'll get, I mean that's a warrant essentially, isn't it? If you're suspected of a crime, you get your fingerprints taken. It's also an extra charge I believe too, if you're not allowing processing and shit. That's just procedure.

It's interference with whatever the fuck. So even if you're interfering in your own thing. He then identified, the detective said, the detective then identified pictures of the defendant's tattoos at that point. That's that's Alex. First was on the on Alex's chest was a dragon and on the backside of his left arm was a big eagle. Really creative guy. Now, what the fuck do those mean? Yeah. Now he insists that he didn't go shoot anybody though. Really. Even though he said these bitches did this and I'm going to kill everybody. When questioned, he said that he and Debbie

drove to the rental, drove that rental car to visit her relatives in Michigan, but that the rental agency's mileage records of the, that's what he said, but they said to him, well, the record of the mileage disputes this. Right. So, they said, yeah, that's, you know, ridiculous here. The officer said that Alex told him that then he went to Tennessee about three weeks ago with another man when he was driving to Michigan. He said he stopped there. They said that Alex told him he was traveling in a white rental car and that he did not

want to say who rented it. I can't tell you that. But was traveling in a white rental car and that he did not want to say who rented it I can't tell you that but I was in a white rental car because that fucks my whole thing up Yeah So the cop said that the that alex told him that the vehicle was rented from a value rental in fort lauderdale Which is not true. It's alamo in miami now the The officer also said alex denied ever meeting anyone in deb Debbie's family including her father sister niece or nephew Didn't meet anybody nothing. So the officer then had said that when he asked Alex who is Alex

Because he's still saying he's David who's Alex or Jonathan. He said Alex Rios a friend of ours from New York and The officer said that later in the interview that Alex said, look, I told you my name is David. He said Al, David. Because they were like, what's your name? He goes, I told you my name's Al David. Which is awful and hilarious. Not good, not good at all.

Really fucking funny. Like, he can't even keep that straight. God damn it. So finally they told him, listen, we have evidence in this case, including the fact that they had a white car and we know where you were. And he said, at that point, Alex changed his story and he said, I plead the fifth to driving a white car. It's not going to say, I guess not going to say whether to confirm nor deny that I

drove a white car. That's not how that works. No, no. But he also, he means it in the way of he's admitting it. Yeah. Pleading the fifth means admitting it, which is the opposite of what pleading the fifth means. To driving a white car.

You would hope a criminal would know that kind of thing. I plead the fifth to murder. I plead the fifth to the murder. Wow. And this guy is extraordinarily dumb, I must say. He wants you to know specifically what he doesn't want to incriminate himself with. It's fucking hilarious, man. He admitted though that he drove with Debbie Graham to Michigan and that he was not with another male. They said that Alex said that Debbie had a job interview in Michigan but he couldn't

remember the name, not only the name of the company she had a job interview at, couldn't remember the name of the city they went to. Oh wow. I don't even know what fucking point on a map I was driving toward. Just an awfully big state Wow That is crazy. Yeah He said doesn't remember the city and that he stated that we stayed with a friend named Jill deheart a black woman who lives in a red brick house

How many bread brick houses are there possibly to be in the whole state if that narrows it down? Possibly being in Michigan. Fuck, the whole state. If that narrows it down, black lady, red brick house, maybe. That should do it. Jill DeHart has a boyfriend, a little tiny guy, real annoying, always trying to make a gamble on football games. You know the guy. You know the people.

You know him. So the officer said that he questioned why, if Alex and Debbie went to Michigan, there were only 24 or 200 miles on the car and he responded the wrong answer yeah they said if you went all the way to Michigan and back why was there this many there should have been more miles on the car there's only 24 to 2800 and he said quote that's a lot of miles that's a lot of miles true but not the miles it takes to go from Miami to Michigan and back which is the fucking point we just brought to you.

You'd have to put that thing on a bomber and take it back to Florida and not put no miles on it. He said seems like plenty of miles to me pretty much like they're like there's a math equation here it's not just that seems far and that's a lot of miles to me pretty much like they're like there's a math equation here it's not just that seems far and that's a lot of miles we can count it up seems good to me he said that's a lot of miles go ahead and check you'll see it's enough to get there and back and more no it's not no it's not it's really not that's the problem it's just not enough miles to get there and back. Yeah, it's wow Check the mileage in the HOV lanes. There was two. Yeah, that's it's dead. We went faster So we'd probably get there quicker meaning less miles, right? That's how it works. We took toll roads

It's how eat that too. See we cut a lot of this mileage a lot of time and mileage a lot of time and mileage So at the end of the conversation with Alex Alex said that he would contact Debbie Graham and get her to talk to the police. And afterwards, after that, he drove, the officer drove him to his girlfriend's place of work, apparently. Now after they said, later on the same day, the defendant here, Alex, pages the cop and the cop calls him back and the the and Alex tells him the location where Deborah's interviewing in Detroit, Michigan. He said I took her to an interview in Detroit, Michigan and gave the officer the street on

which Jill DeHart lived. Oh, no, they also said that he was unable to cut. The officer said after that he couldn't get ahold of Alex again. Oh, disconnected his phone now. That's why it takes a year because this is all this is a few weeks This is right after the girls are arrested and rather than use his fucking name for anything for anything Now when confronted that with evidence against him including a plane ticket placing him in the area at the time of the murder That's when he said I just went there to scare Aaron, which is a terrible story. You're right, I did, because I said,

we have a plane ticket with your fucking name on it. And he said, okay, fine, I went there, but I just went there to scare him, and he was alive and well when I left the campsite. Apparently a stranger came up minutes later and shot him with a.357 for no reason. Scared him even harder. Scared him way worse.

Now, Denise, while she's in jail, we'll talk about this a little bit. There are, there's a subpoena to, there's a subpoena here to the workers at Safe Space here, which is a, like a domestic violence shelter, basically. Yes, and it is, they've been, people in the place that work there are subpoenaed to testify to see if Denise had visited there and she suffered abuse. Now the executive director of Safe Space, Diane Levy, said she didn't want to discuss

any of this and said that the shelter could lose federal funding under the victims of crime act for Revealing information about clients. She said it's it's confidential who's in here and they said it's a fucking murder trial I don't give a shit domestic violence HIPAA laws require not to murder Dead guy domestic violence HIPAA Dead guy, but the law hippa. Dead guy. But the law.

But the fun. They go back and forth. Yeah. But we like checks. Yeah. But we need the money. Which is fair. The confidentiality, there's a reason why that law is there.

But when we're talking about- It's to keep bad guys from beating up women again. Yeah. And finding them and all that. But when we're talking about murder, things are different. That is, we go all the way around any other bullshit when we're talking about murder. So and I don't mean that's bullshit, I'm just saying we go around it. We don't strip people of their civil rights for it, but I mean, we certainly, you can

divulge some information to the police. It's not like the cop is going to go beat the shit out of this woman. That's what I mean. So to the police about a murder. So they said we cannot allow our confidentiality to be breached lest we endanger all the women who have come to us and their children. This will make it much more difficult for women to seek the help they need and to achieve safety. I mean, if we guarantee that in this safe space, we cooperate with police to get justice, I think

they're going to be all on board with that. That's what I mean, because none of them have killed their husbands. They're like, what the fuck? I could have killed my husband and didn't just came here. That's ridiculous. So now the Victims of Crime Act actually already compel shelters to report any information on risks of homicide, suicide, child abuse or sexual assault. Yeah, because this isn't a safe house where Billy the Kid can go after robbing banks.

Come on. No, it's not the Clanton Ranch in fucking New Mexico where they can all hide out. This is not bad. Where you water your horses. Yeah. Tell them just push it on. You know what I mean? Heading on to Central Park.

Ernie Hudson makes you leave. Yeah, that's how it goes. Now the prosecutor here, Al Schmutzer is his name. Sounds like he gets Schmutz everywhere. He's very dirty. He's a Schmutzer. Rub Schmutz on your forehead. Yeah, leaves a trail of Schmutz wherever he goes.

They said confidentiality requirements are designed to prevent victims from further attacks, so they're not applicable in this case. We're talking about a victim who did the attacking. Totally different. You can't just cover for people who stay there. So he said he wants to know if any of the safe space workers heard threats of a homicide regarding Aaron. And so they said the question arises, they have some responsibility in dealing with their clients.

Whether that would cover hiding information that deals directly with a crime to protect someone, it's our position that it does not. They should tell us. So a judge rules that workers at the shelter must testify before the grand jury. Oh. No choice.

They're gonna go to jail if they don't. So they're gonna do it. Now, so they testify and they say that she had come in in 1996 saying that there was abuse so We don't know if it's true. We don't know anything. We have no idea. Mm-hmm I would say I definitely believe her but then these fucking twins are nuts Yeah, they seem to they they seem to be themselves. They seem to be liars and murderers a lot. So that's fuck happened It's weird. So Yeah, it's fucking strange now. There's an inmate at the Cook County jail. Oh, okay. Uh, Sharon

Sha the cock. I keep saying cook cock County, Shannon Jarnigan. And she says that the Denise told her that she hired her twin sister's boyfriend to kill her husband. Which is exactly what happened. And because her husband had abused and now saying sexually molested the children, which is the first time that's ever come up. Okay. I would assume you'd lead with that. Yeah.

Yeah. That's harder abuse than getting punched in the face, man. That's what I mean. So, but that's the first time that's ever come up. No one ever said she'd ever accused him of that before. So she said this Jarnigan said she also met Debbie, who told Jarnigan that her boyfriend Alex had accidentally shot Aaron Smith. Jarnigan said that Debbie told her that she, meaning Debbie, was afraid of Alex and that

after the shooting, Alex would not let Debbie out of his sight. Now, yeah, so they testify, by the way, the domestic violence shelter people testify that they, that I guess she said she had spoken to Denise Smith, the director of this place, who stated she was returning to Tennessee to turn herself into the police and they told her to To contact the public defender's office. She said Denise had contacted her organization didn't go stay there. Oh Called them out of concern for the safety of her children, but that was in the middle of the divorce and custody case

So who knows what that was about now? middle of the divorce and custody case. So who knows what that was about. Now custody here, Harry and Cleeta, the parents of Aaron, they end up with custody of the children. Harry testified at the hearing that their grandson who suffers from Down syndrome needs a close relationship and he can provide that and so can them. So the Smiths had filed for petitions for custody. Marion Graham, the mom, or the children's maternal great aunt. Oh, wow. That's the grandmother's sister. Yes, maternal great aunt. Yes, also filed a petition for custody.

She told the court that it would be best for the children to be placed with her and all that kind of shit. There's no best that she would be. What the children to be placed with her and you know all that kind of shit. There's no best that she would be what's her exact quote here that they'd best be placed with her with all the trauma going on. In Michigan? In Michigan yeah. She also admitted that she had been with the children recently and knew Denise Smith was

in a violation of a court order when she took the kids, which she's not getting custody of. When she showed up to Mary and Jerry's house, she knew that she had, she showed up there with kidnapped children. Yes. And she said, sure, I'll take them. Yeah. No good.

We shelter them while they were on the run. We're good people. Yeah. Aren't we nice? Give us the kids. We were hiding them from the cops for a while. So 1998 comes around. We're going to have a trial for both these sisters. Now, Denise, or I'm sorry, Debbie tries to get

the trial severed. Oh, she doesn't want to be a part of it. Well, and then Denise also tries to get them severed. Yeah, sorry. No, no, they don't actually. Similar, but my grandparents, my grandfather is a, is a fraternal and they still look so fucking like, they look like brothers. I mean still look so fucking alike. They look like brothers. I mean, that's the thing. They're still brothers. Right, they still share DNA. Yeah, you can tell me and my brother are brothers.

Right, right, yeah. But we're not identical twins, but we can tell we're brothers. It's crazy that you're not identical twins. We're nine years apart. But it's still, it's fascinating that identical twins can be born nine years apart, but here we are. It's weird, right?

It's strange. Here, but here we are. I love that. I don't know, that's the best way to end anything. Yeah, here we are. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but here we are. For love that. I don't know, that's the best way to end anything. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. But here we are. For some reason, that's, I love it whenever I end anything. I go, I like that I did that.

Is there somebody else? That's so fucking fun. But here we are. I don't know. It just means, oh well. No answers. So the judge says, fuck no, you're being tried together. Wow.

You're twins and we're going to do this together. You were fucking born together, you're going to go to jail together. Consider this courtroom your uterus. Here we go. Here we are. It's womb time. So Sharon Jarvis, who's the daycare lady, if we remember, she testifies in addition to all the other stuff we told you, she said, that she had three conversations she had with

Denise occurred a year before the death of Aaron. That's on cross-examination. So that's, they're like, see, that wasn't right before the murder, was it? And she's like, no, it was about a year before. And they're like, see? Yeah. Innocent. That's a woman that's been stewing for a year.

Rather than planning it for a year. Yeah. Plotting and planning for a fucking year. That's a dangerous woman. Jesus Christ. So there's that. Jarvis also testified on cross-examination. She believed the statements made by Denise, but also stated that she did not think Denise

would actually carry out the threat. She said, I thought that she wanted him dead, but I didn't think she'd actually kill him. A lot of people you want dead, you don't actually go fucking kill them. That's crazy. Hell yeah. Next, they bring in Jarnigan, the sellmate, okay? Lord, oh yeah, yeah, sellmate, yeah. Yeah, and on cross-examination,

because we told you what she said for whatever, now cross-examination, she admitted the state had charged her, what do you think she's in jail for? Liquor store robberies. Felony murder and aggravated robbery. Okay, wow. Yeah, felony murder and aggravated robbery. Okay. Wow Yeah Felony murder saves yes, really? Yep in an unrelated case and she said a different way there to get we're also fraternal

I'm fraternal her murder twins. That's terrific. Look at us fraternal murder twins. Very nice So she says and testifies to the fact that after she gave the authorities information she had on the case, she pled guilty to two counts of aggravated robbery. Okay. Left the murder out? Left the murder out. So it must have been other people involved. They probably did the killing, but she was there.

That's why she's charged. She just gave her the robbery stuff. She acknowledged she told her attorney that she wanted to use this information that she knew about the sisters to help herself. However, she denied making any deals with the state, which is interesting. So they call again, they call the detective to the stand who testifies that the state reduced the charges in Jarnigan's case because an autopsy was never performed on the deceased victim's body of her murder

and that the other victim, another victim could not be found. Okay. So basically they don't have the evidence to charge her with murder. It wasn't that she made a deal. Now Denise has another cellmate. This is Judy Laws, which is Jude, Jude Leah.

Get the fuck outta here. So strange. Judy Laws, which is Jude, Jude Leah. Get the fuck out of here. So strange. Judy Laws, she said Denise and Shannon Jarnigan were simultaneously incarcerated in the Cock County jail from February of 98. One morning, Laws observed Jarnigan going through Denise's personal papers, which is a big no-no in jail and prison.

Don't you touch my shit. You don't touch anybody's shit that will get you stabbed. You have no privacy as it is and no personal space and the little bit of shit that you have for yourself nobody's touching that shit. And you know who's not the least able to touch my shit is people that are in here involuntarily. Yeah for robbery and murder. So she said that laws said that Jarnigan told her quote I'm gonna get something anything I can get to make a deal with

And that Jarnigan went on to say my attorney says if I can get something on them He'll cut me some slack and make a deal for me. Okay so Wow, they said finally that Denise got back from the shower and took the papers away from Jarnigan. She caught her. And on rebuttal, the state called Detective Robert Caldwell again, and he testified that on November 7, 1997, he took Jarnigan's statement about Denise saying that she hired her twin sister's boyfriend to kill her husband.

So, they have a shitload of evidence. Way too much. So much evidence. It's a lot. Now the verdict comes in at the close or when they go to deliberate, the judge charges the jury. This is here are your options, jury. First degree murder, second degree murder, and facilitation of first and second degree murder. So you can find them guilty of any one or combination of charges or whatever you want. So the jury deliberates for four hours, which just to go over this mess is a lot. It's quick. And they have the same verdict for both of them. They find both sisters, Denise and Debbie

guilty of first degree murder. Oh boy. First degree. Yeah. They said you planned this, hired a guy, rented a car, stole your kids. It's a you this is a plot This wasn't an accident. Yeah, you sat behind the golden nugget and discussed it. Yes, absolutely Here's my only concern though What did he he went there with no weapon to kill somebody that's a great point he didn't even bring anything But they told him guns are in the house. There's a gun there. You don't have to be bumbling around with shit. Would you now think about this though, if you're Alex, would you want to go into a house

that you don't, you're not armed, you don't have anything, but you know the people inside have guns? I got handcuffs. That's wild. Yeah. That's balls, man. I'll handcuff the guy. Fucking A. It's also a house that's Miami style. Yeah. It's also a house that's multi-occupied. There's several people that live here and you brought one pair of handcuffs and no gun. And no gun. Balls.

That's wild. So they find them guilty of first-degree murder, obviously. And after the verdict was read several of the people in the room started sobbing Yeah, Cleta Smith. There's Aaron's mother Walked over to the defendant's table and hugged Denise And they both cried Apparently so I would think keep the okay if it's if you kill my kid and I'm walking over to the table It's to cut that dude's throat. So don't let me get there I will burn out at the bailiff

Let him get that close to hug because I would assume all she's going to murder. She's coming for blood. Yeah Instead they hugged and cried Wow And then Cleta when they were done said to the press justice was served But she felt bad because I've known this like what the fuck. So sentencing comes around and during the sentencing phase the jury does reject the state's one enhancement factor which is to try to get them life without the possibility of parole, the robbery shit. So they're saying it wasn't about robbery, robbery was to throw to throw off the set not to that wasn't the point of the thing

So they're sent to you Mams, I guess too. We've never had you bitches. These are bitches. Let's be honest here. Fuck them. These bitches set me up You bitches may fuck off Life in prison. Yeah with parole real They will be eligible for parole after, it's not that bad, a quick jaunt, they have to serve 51 years in prison. All right.

51 years. Eligible when they're like, What a tease. 87 years old or something, they'll be eligible to get out of jail. So that's not good. That's fucking wild. That's fucked up. wild she thanks okay great

what the fuck man how wild is that life with parole that equates to this money is how many fuck so life is what you're telling me so I'm gonna tip there's no parole stop it dead by then Jesus Christ live 50 years in a prison. That's crazy. Ah, it's so funny. Oh man. So the prosecutor, the district attorney, Al Schmutzer, the Schmutzman, the Schmutzman, he said, I didn't have any quarrels with the sentence for all intents and purposes. It's a life sentence. Yeah. I have a feeling it won't be plotting against anyone else when they're 87 and they get out. If they make it and if they get parole.

Wow. Now 2001 is the Alejandro Rivera trial. It takes till 2001 to get this done. Wow, 10, fucking nine years? Six years? How many is that? Yeah, so his defense, it's four years, his defense is that the witnesses at the murder scene didn't see a Hispanic male.

Oh, that's right. Tall, skinny white man. They saw a skinny blonde man and a girl. So that's not me. And also, he asked of the panel, quote, the jury, who would hire someone to kill someone in broad daylight And in the middle of Taurus season We don't Denise is a moron just because you're stupid doesn't mean that you can't be a murderer. That's the thing right? We're not discussing whether or not it was that's what was he doing?

Yeah, I know that's so strange because honestly that doesn't make sense the skinny blonde man, and it doesn't make sense That he went there without a weapon because honestly that doesn't make sense, the skinny blonde man, and it doesn't make sense that he went there without a weapon, but at the same time he says he went there to scare him. Right. So that means he was there. So you can't say now, well, they said another guy was there and it was no, you said you were there. So nobody said it was a good murder. They just said it was a murder. It was a murder. A guy is dead. That's all we have here. Not that it's a great job. It was a guy is dead. That's all we hear. Not that it's a great job.

So the prosecutor in closing makes this closing argument. He says, and I quote, any doubt in anyone's mind, I submit to you. But Deborah Graham was involved in this murder. Any doubt? It's uncontradicted, which is true. She told her boyfriend, Marty Giovi, of her involvement in this murder. It's Uncontradicted that she came up here to Tennessee and went back in that white Buick and it's

Uncontradicted that this man meaning Alex came with her and there was no other explanation that's come from the witness stand as to why he was with her and the only Reasonable explanation could be that it was to come up here and take care of Aaron Smith. And it didn't matter if he was in there and pulled the trigger. It didn't matter if he was sitting out in the car, but he sure as heck wasn't in Gatlinburg. And then he says, there's absolutely no proof in this stand coming in here and telling you he was ever in Gatlinburg. So that was hours later. So the verdict comes in here. It's a nine man, three woman jury and it's less cut and dried than the ladies,

I have to say. But it's still pretty fucking bad. I mean, he was in the car, it only went there and back. The only reason to go there was to kill him. He lied, yeah. He lied about where he was going and then he said, okay, I went there, I went there to kill him. He lied. Yeah. Yeah, he lied about where he was going. Then he said, okay, I went there. I went there to scare him.

You're full of shit. And then you were the one who pawned the fucking hock, the fucking jewelry that's stolen from there. And you came in wearing Harry's watch for fuck's sake. Exactly. Balls. So they find him guilty of first degree murder. Okay.

Now when sentencing comes around, they were going for the death penalty here, by the way. The jury rejects the death penalty right away, but he has found you, sir, may fuck off life in prison with parole. He will also have to serve 51 years before eligible for parole. So, and he's like 36 when he gets sentenced, so. Adios, adios amigo is what that is, sorry. And I didn't mean that in a fucking Spanish way, I just meant.

Thanks for playing, you lose. Happy trails and time to push on, push on by. Time to push, Ernie Hudson told me. Push on out. Ernie Hudson told me it's time to leave, so we gotta go. Now, Denise is gonna appeal this thing. They're both gonna appeal, obviously. They have their appeals together too, which is hilarious.

Yeah. Here are what she's complaining about. This is the thing. Whether the trial court, here's number one, trial court erred in not dismissing the indictments because of the state's failure to provide the defendant with a speedy trial. Whether the trial court erred by allowing the state to decide not to consolidate Alexandro Rivera's case with their case because of a potential legal problem without first granting

that the defendants have an opportunity to be heard on the issue. So they severed him off somewhere else, didn't try them all together. So three, whether the trial court erred in failing to sever Denise's case from Debbie's case, whether the trial court erred in consolidating Debbie's case with Denise's case, which is pretty much the same as three, whether the evidence was sufficient to convict each of the defendants of first degree murder. They said after a thorough review of the evidence and applicable law, we later on there, they're gonna try to see what that goes.

They said first they challenged the state's decision to consolidate their cases without consulting Rivera. They said rule 12 of the Tennessee Rules of Criminal Procedure requires that a request to consolidate be raised prior to trial. Meaning if they wanted to consolidate. Debbie's claim the trial court erred in denying her motion to sever her trial from Debbie's trial. The law on that is, quote, the state, as well as the person's accused, is entitled to have its rights protected and when several persons are charged jointly with a single crime, we think the state is entitled to have the fact of guilt determined and punishment assessed in a single trial unless to do so would unfairly prejudice

the rights of the defendant. Sure. Cost-effectiveness, yeah. Yeah, you might as well get it all here if it's the same thing. Debbie claims the trial court erred in consolidating her case with that of Denise, so they both are saying the same thing. Each defendant argues that because the evidence against the other was more sufficient, because they're both saying that she's more guilty than me.

Yeah, she did it. So she made me look more guilty. That's why I got convicted. That's what they're both saying, so they can play off each other. They said that the jointer of their trials produced a spillover effect, which permitted one to be prejudiced

by the multitude of evidence against the other. But there's a multitude of evidence against both is the problem. Yeah, I mean, tons of it. You can't take kids down. You know what's being plotted over there. So yeah, you're just distracting children. And then one goes up and kills a guy. While the other one's still, you know, I mean, it's, yeah, you're doing this on purpose and

you're, you're all movements are calculated. You both did this on purpose, you're doing this on purpose, and you're, all movements are calculated. You both did this on purpose. You both did this on purpose. You were almost broke into the lyrics of Night Man there. You were like, one man's here, one man's there. It's Night Man. Feel so wrong and right, man. I swear to God, I thought that's where you were going.

That's what they are, the Night Man. Yeah. That's what it is. The nightman cometh indeed. So, which made the consolidation under rules 813 and 14 of the Tennessee Rules of Criminal Procedure possible. By the way, this gives our lawyer constituency of listeners just huge hard-ons when we talk about rules 18. They're like, fuck yeah it is.

Don't forget 14, oh he said 14. All right. This is North Carolina. Rides me off the top. I love it. It's so cool. She's telling me some shit about the Duke thing that, what was the guy's name? Fee Long? Whatever. Yeah. He was disbarred and then the next guy that came through was. Nifon. What is it? Nifon. Yeah, that guy was disbarred and then the next guy that came through was he found was it me Fong? Yeah, that guy was this part then the next guy came through and he was a part of the the staircase thing Yes, exactly constantly that place is just constant fuckery Constant of a fuckery go-round is what that is. It's a fuck around perfect Holy shit. So the

decision here, yeah, they said reviewing the facts most favorable to the state and all this type of shit here, they said that she had spoken of her intent, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, yourself. That's Denise's. Denise, you can fuck off, okay? That's one. See you in a while. Debbie argues that the trial court aired in consolidating her case with Debbie's again, like we said, or with Denise's. The state's case was a circumstantial one and Schmutzr argued at trial that every piece of evidence added up to guilt. And her attorney, by the way, this is Debbie's attorney, said, I did the best I could, but I frankly don't feel that was good enough. I don't believe I was an I was effective counsel, because it was difficult to know who we are going to trial against.

I was generally prepared. I just would have liked to add more had have had more time after the judges ruling that they'd be tried together to develop my strategy for her defense. The best scenario for me was to go to trial alone with Ms. Smith, the sole defendant, or with everybody. My client was not in the same state when the killing occurred while the other two defendants were local to the murder. Yeah, they were there. Denise was in Florida. She also said that having her client tried along with her sister was difficult because the proof looked horrible against her instead of my client. She looked more guilty than my client, but now we're together. So her attorney, the other attorney for Debbie also said that he would have liked to have had separate trials too. He said about

Debbie, I like her thought we'd be better off going to trial without the co-defendants because of Debbie had less of a motive to kill than miss Smith did She might have been there but Denise wanted him dead and told everybody about it The other sister just might have done it He said that my case is based on the very candid statement of miss Stapleton It's rare that this happens in a case where an attorney freely admits that she was ineffective Why they normally argue that. They said in a case of this magnitude, it would have been better to have heard the motion

much sooner. The bottom line is that when a motion such as this is heard just a day before trial, what suffers is the constitutional rights of the defendant. No, separate trials and a joint trial are completely different legal strategies for the lawyer. completely different. Because if you have them separate, now the other person is a boogeyman and a specter and you can put everything on them

because they're charged too and you can blame them. And they're not here, they're elsewhere. They're elsewhere, if they're together, then it's. And the two assholes are sitting right there. I mean they're one being. You just hear, now they're both guilty is all it is. But the jury's instructed on what evidence is pinned to what person, right?

I mean, it's not like they're just throwing evidence out and being like both of them did this. It's like, they're getting a fair trial. Yeah, there's just spillover that's gonna happen with any, like they said, with any trial like that. So she asserts that because the jury found the evidence was insufficient to show that the murder was committed for promise of remuneration,

so they didn't prove that they paid for murder. That was what it was about. There's no evidence to show that she had any motive for participating in this murder. She further claims that the unreliable testimony of LaShawn Taylor, that's Alex's girlfriend, and Martin Giovi made the state's case against her weak compared to the case against Denise.

Thus, Debbie argues that she was prejudiced by the consolidation of her case with Smith's case, which I don't think that's true at all. That sounds crazy. They say taking the facts, this is the court's decision, taking the facts in a light most favorable to the state, Debbie's intention to kill Aaron may be inferred from her asking Martin to kill Aaron. Yeah, she's looking for someone. The proof further showed that Debbie had Alex

accompany her to Tennessee in order to kill Aaron. She drove the vehicle rented by Denise from Florida to Tennessee, then showed Aaron where the fuck they lived, right? After the murder they drove back to Florida and returned the car to Alamo car rental Debbie returned to Florida without alerting the authorities about Aaron's death LaShawn Taylor testified that Graham and Rivera were very secretive and nervous after they returned to Florida Then Debbie flew to New York while maintaining possession of Cletus Smith's jewelry

In New York Graham stayed with Giovi and told her that Smith and her father paid someone to kill Aaron, which is true, so how the fuck did he know that if that wasn't true? And that she, meaning Debbie, had accompanied the man to Tennessee where they shot Aaron in the driveway or a walkway. He told cops that. She said it was there and that's exactly where he was. Graham was later arrested by the police and gave a statement attesting to the above facts. Hence a rational jury could have found that Debbie intended to assist with the commission of the murder of Aaron

Smith. Both affirmed, eat dicks both of you. Fuck off. So they go back to jail, never to come out, hopefully. So Alex appeals too. and we'll go over quickly, he appeals contending that the prosecutor made improper statements to the jury, the trial court improperly admitted into evidence two pieces of evidence and statements of his co-defendant, the trial court erred when it refused to grant his request for a continuance, meaning delay, the trial court erred when he refused to grant him a judgment of acquittal, okay, because that's he went for a pre-jury judgment of acquittal. The trial court erred when it instructed the jury. The vodir was improper. The trial court erred when it refused the defendant's request to change venue. They also erred when it refused to admit drawings made by

a key prosecution child witness. The trial court aired when it allowed two witnesses to remain in the courtroom during the duration of the trial. They aired when it refused to consider evidence regarding statements allegedly made by the jury foreman. The trial court aired when it refused to allow a New York search warrant and affidavit to be admitted into evidence. And the trial court aired when it allowed a photograph of the deceased to be admitted into evidence and also when it did not review the TBI file.

Okay, now those are all his complaints. Here's a specific complaint about the handcuff key. It's a big one. He argues that the trial court aired when it allowed the state to admit into evidence a handcuff key that was confiscated from him when he was arrested. The New York officer testified he found the key on Alex at the time of arrest and that the key did not open handcuffs that were found at the scene of the murder. The state claims that Alex waived his right to appeal this issue because he did not object to the key being entered into evidence at trial. So if you didn't have a complaint then, fuck you complaining about now.

However, the record reflects that the defendant filed a motion to prevent the state from introducing the handcuff key, which the trial court denied. The trial court determined the handcuff key was relevant and we conclude that the trial court did not abuse its discretion by doing so. So he's trying to say if those keys didn't open the handcuffs at the murder scene, then they're irrelevant. Which is not true. I can see that his angle, but the fact that you carry around a handcuff key is frightening.

That's scary. And the fact that the Brittany saw him with handcuffs. Right. And there's handcuffs there. Those handcuffs are particularly the ones. No. He's into handcuffs. Right. And there's handcuffs there. Those handcuffs are particularly the ones. No. He's into handcuffs, obviously. Which isn't like a, it's not a thunderbolt of fucking evidence that's going to put him

away, but it puts him in the house probably if he's a handcuff guy. So yeah, they determine the handcuff key was relevant and they conclude that the trial court didn't abuse its discretion. Brittany Smith testified also, the daughter, she's the star witness in all three trials by the way. All fucking three trials. This kid had to go up there, 14 years old, 12 years old and go up and testify about her dad being murdered by her mom and her aunt and all this shit.

This kid is fucking tough as nails this Brittany. Yeah, I really man that is she knew exactly what was happening What's going on? I feel for her So they say Brittany Smith testified that Alex was carrying handcuffs handcuffs when she met him and left with a rental car Detectives found handcuffs at the scene of the murder The defendant was in possession of a handcuff key in In light of this, the trial court did not abuse its discretion when they said it was relevant. Also, proof of conspiracy. He's saying the state didn't prove there was a conspiracy

between the three of them. Really? Which is wild. I think the daughter proves it. Just the daughter saying they all stood in the hotel room and talked about how he was killed. That's a conspiracy, done. And they took us away for them to talk.

Yeah. It's pretty hard. When they woke her up saying, oh, we killed him, oh shit, that's right, oh no, it was pretty easy too, that's a conspiracy right there. And all three of them are in on it, they all know about it.

So they said there was ample evidence that Denise Smith and Deborah Graham both sought to have the victim killed and that Deborah Graham was soliciting someone to kill the victim for her sister as early as 1995. Yeah. So it's been going on for years. The Alex was seen riding around with Deborah Graham in the summer before the victim's

murder. Oh, eight days, eight days prior from them to the murder, a package containing drugs was mailed to the victim from a post office 300 yards from Alex's home and contained Deborah Graham's fingerprints. Upon leaving Tennessee, Denise Smith went to Florida where Debbie Graham was living and where she had befriended Alex. So it's all conspiracy, you're all mixed up. She put the package together for her sister and then he mailed it So it's obviously incredible a big conspiracy and he probably got the coke

I would imagine too because he lives down there, but I know where to get it Yes, some shit Miami stepped on bullshit after meeting with Denise Smith and Deborah Graham The defendant meaning Alex left with Debbie Graham for a couple days when he returned he met with Denise and and Debbie and told Denise that we've killed someone it's clear from this evidence By a preponderance of the evidence the state established that the evidence of a conspiracy existed as early as 1995 and established the connection of Deborah Denise and Alex to the conspiracy fucking denied each Shit, all each shit 51 years in prison enjoy your freedom George's yeah no shit now 2005 there's another appeal

and this is like for like a habeas thing I think that's denied for the girls for the ladies 2009 the ladies won a new trial. Is that right? Oh yeah they've been fucked over, evidence was was hidden and it should have been dismissed and they shouldn't have been tried to get all their appeal stuff just in a new package now. Because your only it's appeals are so weird because your appeals aren't just like hey I'm not guilty that's not an appeal. Like they're all specific. They fucked up and did this wrong yeah. Procedural shit. And there's there's specific legal things for appeals. Like this appeals only for this narrow legal thing. And that's it. It's not for whether there was evidence

that get in against you. That wasn't it's just it's so strange. So 2009 they want new trials and they are motherfucking denied again. Alex has also had zero luck in his appeals as well, and he's had a lot of them. So everyone sits in Tennessee prisons, and they're gonna be there for long fucking while, till about 2050. Wow. Where's the fucking Georges?

That's it, and the whole thing I was just gonna say, out of all of this, the main question is where the fuck are the Georges? What's happening? Where are the Georges and what? Don, you lucky son of a bitch. What yeah. And what, what role did the Georges have in this? Now, I don't know if they just couldn't prove anything with the Georges. So they just cut them out of the whole, they just cut them out of the whole fucking plot or what? But I'm not sure but,

I feel like there's Georges involved. They lost George and then they lost both of them. Yeah, then they're both gone. I feel like there's Georges involved. There's one other person that's not being two or two. At least one other person in this conspiracy. I could be wrong. Oh boy.

It's weird shit. So anyway, there is that. Hope you found that case. That's a fucking crazy case, man But here we are and here we are. That's it So that crazy shit if you enjoy this crazy shit and enjoyed that particular crazy shit get on whatever app you're listening on Doesn't matter which one it is. Give a review all the apps let you review Might take it 20 seconds to sign in or whatever. It takes so long to put these shows together. So, Ernie Hudson made me do it. Ernie Hudson

told me how great this show was is a perfect thing to say. Referred by Ernie Hudson or just and here we are. That's fine as well. Do that. Five stars mean the world to us as well as you should definitely listen to our other two shows. You should listen to Crime and Sports. If you're not listening to crime and sports, check it out. We just, we just finished up a four parter, like nine, 10 hours on Rubin Hurricane Carter, Hurricane, like the movie and the Bob Dylan song and the fucking Denzel Washington movie, crazy fucking in depth, really good fucking story. Check it out. Literally beyond the first part, there was zero sports in the entire fucking story. Check it out. Literally beyond the first part,

there was zero sports in the entire fucking thing. And even during the boxing stuff, we're like, yeah, he fought this guy, and then we're talking about crime. So check that out. It's a great place to start. Do that. Also definitely check out your stupid opinions.

Because honestly, I think it's the funniest goddamn hour in podcasting. It's just hilarious. You don't lie. It's fucking funny. I'm not gonna lie. Here we are. it's the funniest god damn hour in podcasting. It's just hilarious. You don't lie. It's fucking funny. I'm not going to lie. Here we are. It's the best.

So check it out. Do that. You also definitely want to head to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com to get multiple things. First of all, tickets to live live live shows actually in person in a theater. Next one of those September 20th in Minneapolis at the very, very beautiful State Theater. Way too nice for us. So let's go in and befoul that shit. It's going to be great.

This is going to be our biggest show ever. So please be a part of it. If you guys sell it out, it'll be our biggest show ever. The biggest shut up and give me murder in the history of the world. We're so fucking excited. So come check that out. The next night we'll be in Milwaukee. Those tickets are sold out for now, but we're just releasing, I think this week we're going to

release our holds and comps or whatever. So check for our social media. We'll tell you when those are available, but they're going to go fast. So grab them there. Also get your tickets to everything else. Even Boston and New York are both over 90% sold out right now and that's in December. So get tickets. Kansas City and Oklahoma City, very, Oklahoma City may be done. No, Kansas City's got some, because we opened up the more tickets. Oklahoma City's done, sold out.

So you're fucked if you wanna go to OKC. These shows sell fast, so get them now for sure and come hang out with us, because we're excited for this. Also Austin. But if you can't make those, fuck, there's a whole other thing. We have other options for you.

Yeah, we understand we only come to 12 cities this year So we have virtual live shows October I don't write this Halloween show. It's a virtual live Halloween show just like a regular live show except you're in your living room We're at the table with the pictures and everything else. We'll have a costumes on Sure, we use some weird matching partner costumes that are strange like we always do. We'll do that. It'll be really fucking fun. We'll make it murder related of course. We can't wait for that and it's just so much fun and so funny and you know we keep doing them because people keep asking us to do them. You guys like them.

We're gonna give you what you like. We're not just doing things to do things. You guys enjoy them, we'll do them. Totally and judging the response, we don't get less people watering them every time. We get more people every time. So that means that they're telling each other how good they are. So they're fucking good. Check them out wherever you want to be in the world. That's still ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com, Halloween, virtual live show. We also have Patreon.

Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all the bonus materials. All you need to have is five dollars a month or more and You can get hundreds of back episodes of bonus stuff with new ones every other week one crime in sports one small town murder And we will give you all of it for that five dollars here you go for crime in sports this week We're gonna get a very non sports thing that you're gonna love theme park disasters We do that one quarterly for crime and sports because they're so fucking fun. Then for small town murder, it's the big one. It's the one we've all been waiting for.

We do it once or twice a year. The prisoner dating game is back. Can't wait. Oh baby, all violent, felon edition. We lined Jimmy up for young ladies, for young men. He knows nothing about them except what they put in their prison dating profile. And he's gonna choose one of each each and we are gonna see based on this

who he picks and then he'll find out A, who they are and B, what the fuck they did to get in there. That's the important part. Patreon.com slash crime and sports. If you've been waiting for the week this is the week to sign up and with that you get a shout out here at the end of the show which is right now Jimmy! hit me with the names of the most wonderful people in the world who would never, ever, ever name their kids Phallus. This week's executive producers are Cat Power, Dying Alone in Rochester, Jordan Bennett, Tara and Frosty. Hang in there, Tara.

Things are going to get better, I swear it. And Franny and Oz. Miss you so much, Fran. You're so great. Thank you. Holy shit, she's wonderful. Thank you. Other producers this week are Peyton Meadows, Liz Vasquez, Laura Turner, and Frankie Sue, Gary Howard, Sarah Surridge, happy birthday Sarah.

Happy birthday. Janice Hill, Laura Tershure, I think is how you say that. She's in the Netherlands. I could never fucking get that for sure. Who knows? Tershure, Teresa Fernandez, Andrea Carr, Sophia Koufer, Patrick with no last name, Raphael V, Derek Anderson, probably not the NFL quarterback, Mavelle. Maybe.

Miguel, it's possible. Miguel Huvera, Katie with no last name, Amy Ortiz, Angie Galloway, Chris O, Brad Davis, Gypsy Lady, Robbie with no last name, Jim Seidman, Jennifer Bartholomew, Melissa Weiland, Jason Rode, Ashley Bruce-seam-er, Brrrr-she-mer, Sebastian Malak, Jeff Leake, David Panzer, Danny Labu, Labu Laboe, Demented with no last name, Antoinette Smith, Mark from Oak Park, Joe Malone, Michelle with no last name, Amanda Stanley, Matilda Weaver, Julie C.,

Mike Gossett, Lou Gossett's kid. Of course, there he is, finally. Iron Eagle Jr. Jason Hahn V with no last name. This show brought to you by the letter V, Jessica Valenzuela, Anna K, Kristi Prokop, Procope, Michelle Grant, Cody James, Nancy with no last name, last name, Marathe Backe, Backe, Marathe, Maratay, Backe, Backe, Backe, Backe, Terry B, Jason DeVries, DeVries maybe, Corrine,

Corrine, Karen, Gignac, how do you pronounce G-I-G-N-A-C, is that G-NA-C? Is it Gignac? G-I-G-N-A-C, I that G'nak? G-I-G-N-A-C? G'nak? G'nak? G'nak? G'nak? G'nak? G'nak? G'nak?

G'nak? I say G'nak. I'm wrong. Jessica Schellenberg. Laura Morgan Christie with no last name. Angeline... Angeline? Angeline?

Angeline? No. Angeline. Is that her name? I? No. Angelin. Is that her name? Why not? I guess so, Ange, hey Ange. Buffy Hanok Honak, E15, E15 times.

Will Sparks, Leah Osborne, Amy Gustafson, Gustafson, Tim Phelps. Do you remember those, those chips, Fips? The little chips? Yeah. Those were delicious. Do they still exist? I chips, Phipps? The little chips? Yeah. Those were delicious. Do they still exist? I'm going to look for them.

Madeline would know last name. I'll find them later. Wendy would know last name. Tim Kennedy, Rachel Crump, Chris Byrne, Elizabeth Lundy, Brandy Chapman, Don Don, Asia Taylor, Jeremiah Robinson, Amanda Parks, Jose Liel, Nzinga Bryant, Douglas Ecker, Ike, it's not Ike, it's Ike Stevens, Ike the Cat, do you remember that? Yes. What a great time.

Things are coming out of nowhere. You're flooding Jimmy with memories. Heather Hicks, Christine Cohen, Amber Thomas, Chance Crocker, Nicole Reese, Jess Bennett, Jane Boniface, Boniface. Hey, Bonifacio. This show brought to you by the letter W, Kat Irving, Ryan Frank, Bailey Bariachoa, Bariachoa, Abigail Kennedy, Jessica Cagle,

Erin Cochran, Jose Escobedo, Janice Worthy, oh man, remember James Worthy? All right, Ashley Lissy, Lissy, Whitney Bach, Luke Haggerty, Haggerty, Bobby. Oh man, UNC was killing it when they had Worthy. Lakers, wow. Luke Haggerty, Bobby Farney, Douglas Emerson, Jim Blumley, Dan with no last name, Chris Ramsey, Mike Welch, Jess Neumeyer, Graham Woods, Kerry Kelly, Christopher Nelson, Sam Pulley, Jaden Williams, R. Justin Apsley, Dean Mean, Beck O'Reilly, Adam Bainbridge,

Wendy Brady, Cameron Toe Stevens, Toe is his nickname evidently, Tyler the Testicle Tickler, all right, good for you. People appreciate that, I'm sure. Tickle my own. Chris Green, Emily Paulus, Kitty Bits, Jay with no last name, Dist Michael, Diced maybe, I don't know, Tommy Diagecomo, nope, Di-Gia-como, Nilly.

Diagecomo. Diagecomo-como. Diagecomo, probably. Diagecomo. G-I-A-M-C-O-M-O. DiGiacomo. DiGiacomo is James in Italian by the way. Is that right? Yeah, his name's DiJames. Isn't that part of a song?

My grandma and your grandma DiGiacomo by the fire. I don't think that quite is the one. Nellie Mittens. Christina DiGiamenez. Aleksari. Aleksari? What? Gil? That sounds like an allergy drug. It does. Nellie Mittens, Christina Jimenez, Alexery. Alexery, what, Gil?

That sounds like an allergy drug. It does, Alexery. Try Alexery now, will cause anal leakage. Do you have numb toes? Try Alexery. Try Alexery. Melissa Williams, David Byrd Jr., Amber Marie, Pete with no last name, UW, nope that's Y,

that's a letter Y. Y? Ha ha ha ha ha! Pronunciation names is one thing, identifying letters or in another area, I don't know. Why U the boss, U, all right. Teresa England, Brittany Keller, Amanda Reynolds, Terry Mitchell, RancidMin69. All right, Ms. Cassie, Brooke Reed, Brian Mochel,

Sian in New Zealand, Sian, Sian, Sian, Sean? It's S-I-A-N, is that Sean? I don't know, is that New Zealand Sean? Might be. Keith Ellis, Andrea McMillan, Chris with no last name, Mayla with no last name, Myla maybe, Alison DiMaggio, that is how you say, I haven't Allison DiMaggio. That is how you say Haven't seen DiMaggio in print in a long time Amanda Stokes Jennifer Pearson

Jason Wheeler and all of our patrons you're fucking amazing. Thank you. Thank you everybody so much Yeah, honestly for all that you do for us for the listening for the telling your friends for the patreon Yeah, we can't do the show without you would be two crazy people yelling at each other in a room So still fun. It's still fun. We would still do it. Don't get me wrong But it's so much it's so much better with you guys listening and making it like an actual thing that we can like have a career Over so thank you for that. Thank you for all you do for us Do you want to follow us on social media? Shut up and give me murder drop down menu and do that and all the social media and all that shit is right there. That said, I think it's time to say

until next week everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.