Small Town Murder - #575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan

Episode Date: March 6, 2025

This week, in Arcadia Township, Michigan, it's a mystery, when a woman is found dead, floating in a lake, near a boat dock. Her husband says that he left the area, and she just disappeared, but the evidence tells a slightly different story, with her smashing to the concrete, before somehow ending up in the lake. Plus, affairs, gambling, alcohol & pills are all in the mix. Was this all a tragic accident, or was she murdered in a seriously cold blooded way??Along the way, we find out that local bands make for the strangest festivals, that an affair might not be a motive for murder, if you didn't know the affair was happening, and that human bodies definitely don't bounce off of concrete!!New episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to small town murder early and ad free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Scam Factory, the explosive new true crime podcast from Wondery, exposes a multi-billion dollar criminal empire. Every suspicious text you ignore, masks a huge network of compounds where thousands are held captive and forced to scam others under the threat of death. Follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Arcadia Township, Michigan, when a woman is found floating face down in a lake, it makes everybody wonder, was this just a tragic accident,

a sad suicide or one of the coldest murders you could possibly commit? Welcome to small Town Murder. Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petragallo. I'm here with my co-host. I, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petragallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman.

Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another crazy edition of Small Town Murder. We've had a lot of crazy lately. Last week the main episode was Haddon Clark who was one of the most insane serial killers of all of his drawings. Terrible person. It's been crazy lately. Definitely before we get started, head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. serial killers with all of his drawings. Terrible person. It's been crazy lately. Definitely before we get started, head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com.

First of all, merchandise is there, but second, tickets to shows are there. Get those right now. Get your 420 tickets for the virtual live show anywhere in the world that you are with an internet connection. You can watch a live show. It'll be just like a regular live show, except we're gonna be wearing costumes. And since it'll be a 420 show,

takes place on the 19th of April, and there's two weeks you can get it after that. But since it's on 420, I'll have crazy smoking apparatus for Jimmy to be terrified of, and a crazy story, and all the pictures and everything like that. Can't wait. And you should get tickets for regular live shows while you're there as well.

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you're gonna get it all. You're gonna get hundreds of back episodes you've never heard before immediately upon subscription, then new ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder, and you're gonna get hundreds of back episodes you've never heard before immediately upon subscription then new ones every other week One crime and sports one small-town murder and you're gonna get them all that's right all of it this week for crime and sports We're gonna talk about the 2012 Miami Dolphins bullying scandal and some new stuff that's come up about that lately You know in retrospect people have different opinions now, so that's interesting and then for small-town murder We're gonna talk about the Amazon review killer

who killed people, held women hostage, did all this stuff, and then the tools of that trade, he left truthful Amazon reviews about, about how this was helpful in killing people. It's bonkers, we'll talk all about that. That is Patreon.com slash crime in sports, and you get a shout out at the end of the show as well. Jimmy will mess your name all up.

That said, disclaimer time, it's a comedy show everybody, that's one thing. Unfortunately, the facts are as real as they could be, honestly, we wish we could just tell you fictional stories and that would be fine, but these are real stories, the details are super real, meticulously researched, and everything like that, so there's also going to be jokes. We're comedians.

That's how we do this thing. So what we've decided, and we figured out a long time ago, that it's really easy to separate the two. That's it. There's nothing funny about an actual murder. There's no joke when someone's head's being cut off. That's not funny. What's funny is, hmm, where do I put the head now?

That's a funny thought right there. Maybe I'll put it in the freezer and nobody will notice it. That's crazy, and that's funny. So that, where do I put the head now? That's a funny thought right there. Huh, huh, maybe I'll put it in the freezer and nobody will notice it. That's crazy and that's funny. So that's where it comes from. What we don't do, what we never do, is we never make fun of the victims or the victims' families.

Why is that, James? Because we're assholes. But. But we're not scumbags. See, real simple. That's how that goes. So if you think that sounds good to you, you're gonna hear a wild story. If you think true crime and comedy should never ever go together

We might not be for you, but give it a shot. I think maybe we are for you So either way no complaining later that said I think it's time to sit back everybody. Let's all clear the lungs here Let's arms to the sky. Let's all shout Let's do this everybody, okay Shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this everybody. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's do it. We're going to Michigan this week.

Oh yeah. Where we will be this year in Grand Rapids. I think that's already sold out or damn close to it. Pretty close. Not really plugging it at this point. This is Arcadia Township, Michigan. Now. Is that the UP? No, it's not. It's Northern Michigan, but not the UP. It's on the, it's right on the lake up in

Northwestern Michigan. Yeah, but it's in the regular part. And it's not the other Arcadia Township. Michigan, what, listen, we're supposed to have one town name per state. You can't have two Smith towns in the same state they have two Arcadia townships in the same goddamn state which is a ones in Lapeer County I guess down in kind of central south LAPER Lapeer no not Lapeer I would have gotten I know Pierre I could pronounce that but Lapeer County I guess I don't know Lape, whatever the hell it is. This is two hours and 15 minutes to Grand Rapids where we will be in September,

two hours to our last Michigan episode, Crockery Township, Michigan, which was the battle of the neighbors, which was wild stuff. I love those for some reason. I love the ones where it's two neighbors fighting for years. And then there's a show for some reason those really interest me I don't know why Because you don't want to talk to it's validation for you. Yes This is why this is why just mind your business. I don't want to barbecue with them

God damn stick to yourself next thing you know will be having a gunfight in the yard That's what we'll be dueling in the yard in front of the fucking ribs. So this is in Manistee County area code 2 3 1 and There is no motto, but I'm gonna give you what it says on the website about this place This is kind of what their their whole deal here since the 1900s The climate tempered by the cool waters of Lake Michigan has made Arcadia a refuge for those seeking relief from the pressures and confinement of the metropolitan areas of southern Michigan and neighboring states They're telling you can't take it anymore come here for a weekend

That's what it is. It's just all like a little resort Lake town. It's there's no I feel like This is where you the they played pool in the great outdoors and stuck that pool cue between the chick's legs and she flung it across the, yeah, that's where we are here except Michigan and not Wisconsin. Poor girl never had a boyfriend longer than a week. Never a week, because they leave, dammit.

But Buck's gonna be different. So even though he's not, he's leaving too, it's stupid. So, so dumb. Little bit of- That's the funniest scene too when they're sitting in that boat and she's like and you're leaving in two days and he's like yeah but yeah yeah this is the whole reason I didn't want to go out with you that was

the point she's trying to tell him and he's like yeah but I could finger you now it's like no you're not getting it but show me your tits yeah that's all he's asking for it's real weird so history of this town they organized a township in 1870 and then founded the village of Arcadia in 1880. There's Arcadia Township, then within that is Arcadia, which is inside of Arcadia Township. Ridiculous. So, the early history, they say, is dominated by Henry Stark, who was a Milwaukeean who established a lumber mill and made a shitload of money.

Also established a church and all that kind of shit here. It was a big lumber town through the early 1900s. In 1906, that guy's lumber town, lumber mill, Henry Stark, it burned to the ground. Of course, and as everything did. He was gonna save the planet. Lumber man and Mr. Stark. You know what else lumber is?

Flammable, that's the problem. It's very flammable. Lumber man and Mr. Stark. You know what else lumber is? Flammable. That's the problem. It's very flammable. Iron Man figured it out. That shit doesn't burn. It doesn't burn quite as easy. So it was replaced by the Arcadia Furniture Factory. Now there are no reviews of the town proper because it's a small town, but there are reviews

of the place that we're going to talk about where this murder took place this week, or where the death happened here, which is the Watervale Inn. It's right on the lake. It's like the most famous inn around here. It's built in the 1920s or something. It's very old. And so they say it features 14 cottages,

which are suites of rooms. So they have cottages separate, then they have a main building with suites inside of that It's pretty cool and the historic inn where breakfast and dinner are served daily It is situated on two lakes this in so it's a very very good vacation spot essentially And they have like a big boat dock where people can go out and a big deck where they go out and drink wine and look At the lake and water little water town, yeah. Yeah, it's really nice. This place has 4.8 stars on Google as well.

So that's fantastic. It's really good at 85 reviews. Here is one from Mary Jean, five stars. Love this place. Old school cool at its finest. Charming cottages, beautiful setting. Be sure to do the Mount Baldy hike and walk back along the water

The way you get to run down the dunes. That's a long way. It's a long walk on the beach be prepared Okay, that's what you want to know what Mount Baldy means because there's like 3,000 there's a lot of them at West a bunch of them too. Yeah. Yeah, I think Idaho has one I want to say Utah or somewhere has one. There's a lot of them Arizona has like six. Yeah, yeah, I think Idaho has one I want to say Utah or somewhere has one. There's a lot of them Arizona has like six. Yeah, it's Ridiculous, maybe it's just they had there's nothing on top of it. So they called it mountain. Maybe I don't know or there's a guy Named Baldy who was climbing all the mountains but had no hair He had no hair but he had was great at mountain climbing. Yeah, so that's why

North face gear this guy. Tons. Patagonia up his ass. It's all over the place. And then finally one star from Rick. The owners are not friendly. That's all. Well that's because Rick wanted to walk around without a shirt. They were like, maybe inside put one on.

It's the pants I think were the problem. The shirt they didn't mind. But they were like, Rick you gotta have something on. Please. No pants. It's windy up here. You're just going flopping all around. Just in his fur to the loom, just any white.

Can I just take some pancakes to my room? You can go to your room until you have clothes on, Rick. You can eat all your meals in your room, Rick. Tell you what, we'll just leave a tray outside of it, and you come out and get it. So the owners, by the way are in this murder story. They don't, it's not, they're not like murderers or murdered, but they're, they're involved in this. So this is pretty funny when you hear their quotes

always just think the owners are not friendly. It's funny. People in this town, 524 is the permanent residence. Just enough to work all the places and stores and ice cream shops and shit. More males than females here, which is odd. Really? Over 51% male, but it's very strange because the median age is 60. So, when people are older, usually the males start

to die off and you get more females. So this is a very strange stat there. 60% married, which is higher than the national average Single with children 0.0 percent. Hell. Yeah, none. We're all old Don't care married and have kids. That's it race in this town 94.6 percent white 4 percent black 1.1 percent Hispanic Religion 40.4% religious, and it's spread around pretty good.

There's some Lutherans and Episcopalian or two, a Presbyterian here or there. Most of them are Catholic though, 20% Catholic. So Catholics are the Baptists of the northern, Midwestern area of the Great Lakes. Catholics are the Baptists of the Great Lakes. Unemployment rate is 7.6% here, which is much higher than the national average.

And that's because there's a limited amount here. I mean, there's just, you either work at the store that sells the little melted snow globy things, or you know, it's a tourist town, so. The fish. Yeah, not a lot of industry here that you can really crank onto. Median household income here though is high at

$74,167 a year which is higher than a 69,000 it's the average cost of living here is 78 out of a hundred which is pretty low Housing is the median home cost here is 249,500 dollars Wow. Which sounds good. For a lake town? That sounds great. Sounds great. Until you get into the housing market.

That includes, when you add, that includes like just a lot that has no houses on it. You know what I mean? So that could be $100,000 and they average that out with a house that's half a million dollars and you have a lower average or so. In case you want to find out a little more about it, maybe you're looking for a nice place to spend a summer night in the lake here, we have for you the Arcadia Township Michigan Real Estate Report. The average two-bedroom rental here goes for $940 a month, which sounds low. Honestly, in this area, it doesn't sound bad.

It's $1,200 or so. Yeah, it's around $1,200. Here's a three bedroom, two bath, $1,100 square foot condo. This is not a private home and there's a condo, so there's another house attached to you. It says in the listing just steps to your own private 30 foot dock and slip on Arcadia Lake. Awesome. That's pretty cool.

That's pretty cool. Pretty bland on the inside. This is not a place I feel like where you live. This is a weekend summer place because all those places like Lake George, they have those all the houses for sale. They're like 700 grand and inside they're from 1981. They're just there's carpet. They're a mess.

So that's what it looks like. It looks like a giant motel room that needs an update the whole house 224,900 bucks though So if you just want to go up and party on the lake or whatever I mean, yeah, if you want to own a lake house, there you go. That's pretty expensive still in it. It's expensive Yeah, but I mean that's below the average Yeah, I assume if you're gonna buy a lake house, you're not like, you know,

counting scrimping pennies at that point. You're probably. You're doing all right. You're doing okay for yourself. Here's a four-bedroom, three-bath, 2364 square foot house on 3.52 acres. It's nice inside. It's very updated, HGTV-friendly type of joint. of joint not bad not on the lake but you have views

of lake michigan so it's okay 799,900 bucks for that though but it is 2,500 square feet almost and three and a half acres so okay a little pricey here's a three-bedroom two bath speaking of pricey 2033 square foot so not humongous smaller than the other one. It's on four point nine seven acres Hell yeah, and if I'll read the listing rare opportunity to own this amazing property 198 feet of private frontage on Lake Michigan Nearly five acres of land. Yeah, this is 60 yards of shoreline. That's yours. That's yours on Lake Michigan. Nobody will be there. It's fucking awesome. It's all woods around your house. I've cleaned up the lake. Beautiful built in 1920. Um, inside it's 1989.

That's what it looks like in there. That's when it was updated. Farty as the day is long, but a lot of like real wood paneling in the rooms that looks nice, you know, that kind of shit. One million one hundred fifty thousand dollars though. You're going to pay for that. You want five acres of lakefront. You're paying for it.

That's how that works. Yeah. Things to do here. OK, got a couple of things. First is Arcadia Days, the A Z E, of course, every town has seems to have one. And it says to the festivals a great local event that celebrates the heritage of Arcadia, Michigan. And that is, this is how they celebrate, with a pickleball tournament.

That tells me about heritage and old timey things. It's old people, yeah. Fireworks over Lake Michigan, pulled pork sandwiches with fixin's With fixin's from 5 p.m. Until sold out it says Music by Barefoot. That's the band and then also no no Barefoot not one shoe Nothing that we have a free car horse carriage rides dance to live music by bent carrot which sounds like a dick euphemism Sounds like you got some peronies and you got a dick of you from as I was like you were throwing a lot of Fucking Ben carrot time

kids fishing tournament children's stories fishing for kids a Doubles cornhole tournament. Let's get together and kids a doubles cornhole tournament Let's get together and see how much corn we can hold Also a ham and German potato salad lunch That's a you're gonna be far my all day German in the type of food I imagine it's because the mayo in that potato salad is sour. I think the German one is mustard. That's, I think the German's the yellow one, I think.

Really? There's maybe mayo too, but it's mainly a mustardy based one, the German one. It has like bacon in it sometimes. I might be able to tolerate that. It's not bad. It's okay, it's not too terrible. Let me see here.

We also have free horse carriage rides, more music by Barefoot. They're playing every fucking night. God damn, they're busy. Then there's the Minnehaha Brujaha. Okay, so native stuff. That's okay. Now the festival will highlight the talented local bands

that call Northwestern Michigan home. That's. Oh no. These are bands from the woods, everybody. Yay. Honor the natives with the worst music on the planet. Oh man. It says from students who are just starting their music careers to the homestyle jamboree bands of music lovers.

This sounds awful. The centerpiece stage will be supported by a collection of other homegrown favorites like local food trucks and a tasting sponsored by regional breweries. We believe that local acts deserve a spot in the limelight. They will once they get good enough for people to see them. There's plenty. Yeah, you wait till they get to open for somebody. They'll get their due, I promise.

This isn't the 70s. If they're out there on the internet, if people like them, they'll find them. I mean. That's the thing now. If you're good, you'll get an audience. Yeah, Chappell-Roe was a nobody a year and a half ago, and she had tons of music already made. You know what I mean? Like, they'll pick it up, don't worry an audience. Yeah, Chappell-roan was a nobody a year and a half ago and she had tons of music already

Made, you know what I mean? Like that they'll go pick it up. Don't worry about it So they want to do that and encourage the growth of our unique music scene Now this includes at 11 a.m The coveted 11 a.m. Spot that all performers can't wait to do the cross-cut Kings will be there performers can't wait to do. The Crosscut Kings will be there. And then Jake Allen and TJ Rankin will be there. Next up I'm going to give you a name of a band and I'm going to ask you to, well here I'll just give you the name.

D-G-A-N-G-O-P-F-O-N-I-Q-E. Django Phonique Django Phonic Yeah, what do you think that band looks like and I guarantee you everyone out there listening right now No matter what your fucking picturing you are really wrong like dead fucking wrong It's not like black people doing techno music or something. Oh who the fuck is this? It is a group. Don't do that. It's first of all they have a stand-up bass which is there's like an oboe or a clarinet or some shit a lady

who looks like she's wearing a fucking prom dress with full gloves going up her arm. Above the elbow man. Three dudes four dudes in bow ties. It looks like if you went to a... Tuxedo's. If you went to a fancy hotel, they'd be quietly playing in the lounge while I'm being ignored. That's Django Phoenix. Django Phoenix. And then there is after him Darren Vander Molen, who I hate to do this to you, but I'm just going to show him to you and you can make your own. Oh shit. He looks just like you. I hate it. I hate that he does but I saw the picture and I'm like oh no it's Jimmy rocking on the bass. Get some transplants Darren get out of my life. Oh no. Same thing. And he's playing bass with a little kid in front of him there. We also have Nick Veen Vine Veen

I don't know a V E I N E. I don't know who the fuck that is He needs to come up with a better name. They it's either Cock euphemism or it's fine. I don't know the Mark Lavin good band This is awful. As the Mark Lavin bad band. It sounds like I'm not into that Jones and the get-down Joey sounds like a band. Yeah, Sean Kelly. Oh, I assume is gonna just play Irish fucking Irish music the whole time in the jar I'm here sad music to drink to all right. All right, we're playing ratlin bug for the third time All right. All right. And we're playing Ratlin Bog for the third time.

The ride after that, the Jim Cummins band. Yeah. And then T.C. Knuckleheads beats the shit out of me. I don't know. Those are local bands, everybody. Crime rate in this town, what we are interested in here. Property crime is about one third below the national average. So it's safer than normal. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery,

and of course assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime is about half the national average. So, as you would expect at like a sleepy lake town, people aren't just savaging each other in the streets, which is good. Although there are some holiday traveling drunkards that cause some problems I'm gonna happen gonna happen. It's it goes you can't can't avoid it unavoidable so that said let's talk about some murder here

Let's get into this let's talk about a woman first here Florence Stern Okay, s t er and Stern goes by, because that's a cooler name. Flow sounds, anybody with the name Flow sounds cool. They're fun. They sound like they're cool. Hey Flow, hey, what's happening? She sounds chill. She's born in 1966 here. She is from Huntington Woods, Michigan,

which is a Detroit suburb, apparently. Yeah, they made it sound like it's way far away from Detroit though. Put woods in there, people will think it's totally different. They won't see. And Huntington sounds like it's so far out that's where you can shoot a deer from your front porch. Sounds like fancy woods.

Yeah. And then your servant will go retrieve the deer for you that you just shot from your front woods she's the daughter of Harold and Claire Stern and People apparently flow Using by the she's has the name flow So she's got to use it is very good at making friends and very good at connecting with people Yeah, she's very good at that very real friendly and that kind of. And she's into arts in college. She's a fine arts major. So she does that. Her friend said she brought a sense of beautiful of the beautiful to everything she did. I don't know. I don't know what that

means. That sounds pretentious is what that don't say that about me. No, he brought a sense of beautiful to everything he did. Now. I'm sure they won't. He brought a sense of beautiful to everything he did. Now, I'm more likely to say he looked like Dan Vander Molen or whoever that guy Darren Vander Molen. I'm never going to forget that motherfucker's name as long as I live. Never, never. You son of a bitch. I hate him so much. You bastard. So yeah, she did that sense of the beautiful. I'm not saying she sounds pretentious, her friend sounds pretentious for saying that. It sounds weird. Now, she knew somebody named Connie here

who has a brother named Mark, all right? Connie says she's beautiful, she's charming, she's fun, Flo's a great lady here. Now, Connie's brother brother his name is Mark Mark Unger like Felix UNG er He is born in 1960 so a few years older than her Also from the Huntington Woods area really Interesting so he's got two sisters Kim and Connie and Connie is the one who knows

Who knows this flow okay now Unger when he's a kid He plays he's a big sports guy always really into sports wanted to be like an athlete But you know like most people isn't gonna be a professional athlete so Yeah, but still wants to do shit involved in sports That's his deal like he played t-ball when he was a kid like kids do and love sports He attended the Detroit Country Day School where he was on the tennis team. Oh, so number one Detroit country day school. That sounds like a private school. That's very fancy because there's schools here that are like the rye country day school. My friend went to because he got

a hockey scholarship and it's very expensive country day school. And they were like in the nineties, they were like 20 grand a year to send your kid to high school. It was wild, yeah, that was back then. So that sounds expensive. And he's on the tennis team, which is also an expensive sport. That's the most, yeah.

That and golf are tough. As a teenager, if you're good at tennis, you've played a lot of tennis, that's crazy that you have that much access to tennis courts. I didn't fucking have a, I mean, there was like parks with tennis courts, but no one played tennis on them You know, I mean like there was a park with tennis courts on it near me But the the nets were never on and now they had like some league up there. Then they put the nets on so otherwise

I posted in a green black top. Otherwise people just set the nets on fire. That's all Blacktop. Otherwise people just set the nuts on fire. That's all. Cut strings off that whatever. Yeah, so he ended up going to the University of Michigan and so did flow Okay, so that's where they're gonna meet here Now Connie Wolverines couple of Wolverines Connie here big Jim Harbaugh fans Well, not anymore, I guess. No, no, he's gone. He's gone now. So Connie and big Bo Schembechler fans back then, I guess, I don't know.

So Connie here describes Mark, that's her describing her own brother, as a very gentle teddy bear of a guy. That's all. Connie said her brother and Flo met through, and this is weird, met through Connie's daughter Who was one of flows friends? So I assume Connie's got to be much older than her brother

Because I think he's the youngest of the family here So she's got to be much older and have had a daughter very young for her to be in the same age Bracket of someone six years younger than Mark. So that's interesting. So yeah, he met his he met this he met flow through his niece, which is very strange. Very odd here. So Mark ended up, I guess, graduating from Michigan. And that's when they began dating, which makes sense, because that's when she was old enough to date at that point, probably. Yeah, years apart so the whole the timeline of all of this is skewed And I don't know how old he was when and how old she was when they met But I'm not liking that into college a little bit late or a little bit early

Yeah, I feel like it's good. I feel like it's 22 and 16 is what it is and that may it creeps me out so I'm hoping it's not that but We don't know and 16 is what it is and that creeps me out so I'm hoping it's not that but we don't know Connie said went on to say about about a flow quote she was beautiful she was charming she's fun and they seemed very much in love yeah so there you go they began dating after great he graduated and they get married a few years later have a big beautiful wedding in the middle of a big snow storm.

Oh. Which, yeah, everybody said it was just beautiful. I mean, the pictures through the window look great. They look great, and the bride walking out with the white dress with the snow coming down must have been white all over her. Freezing her ass off unless she had a park on, it's great. You want your wedding pictures to be with a park on,

usually, that's how it works. Hey everybody, we have some exciting news that we wanna share. If you wanna go on an adventure with Generation Y, we'd love for you to join us. January 26th through the 30th, 2026, we'll be sailing from Miami to the Bahamas on Wondry's first ever True Crime Cruise

aboard the Norwegian Joy. Aaron and I will be there to chat, hang out, dive into all things true crime, and we're thrilled to be joined by some familiar voices in the true crime podcasting world. Surti and Hannah from Red Handed, Sashi and Sarah from Scam Fluencers, and Karl Miller from Kill List. Super excited to hang out with them too. We've got some cool activities, interactive mysteries we can solve, testing our forensic skills with a blood spatter expert,

and so much more. So for some sun, fun, and just the right amount of mystery solving, come join us. If you'd like to know more and secure your spot, visit exhibitseacruise.com for presale information. What if everything we thought we knew about justice was wrong? In this is Actually Happening's new series, A World Beyond Revenge, we explore a radical idea that justice can be about healing, not just punishment. Through five powerful stories, we meet people who've experienced unimaginable harm

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Plus. So after Mark graduated from U of M here, he spent a year in California at Pepperdine University studying advertising. And then he returned to live in Detroit or in the suburbs there in Huntington Woods and you know all that kind of thing so his passions always sports and his mother said he really wanted to be a sportscaster which is interesting by the way his parents got divorced while he was in college like if that's not a signal. Once the last kids in college.

We would have done a while ago. They wanted to get divorced for 25 years is what that means. Yeah we've been sticking it out and faking it. Giving you a fraud of a childhood. As soon as he got like his TV set up in his dorm room they were fucking drawing up divorce papers like well that's that. We did it. Raised him up and out. TV set up in his dorm room, they were fucking drawn up divorce papers like, well, that's that. We did it.

Raised him up and out. That's time to fucking deal with us now. And poor bastards like, everything was a lie. It's all a lie. And that's, I think, has some effect on him, by the way. It's got to. For some reason. It has some kind of weird effect on him here.

Because you have to know that, oh God, they've been sitting here waiting me out for years. That's fucked up Yeah, so he ends up getting a job as a sportscaster or on the sports radio type show on W I can't make this up if I tried WJZZ FM W. Jizz Everybody's got to hear the hits and W. Jizz W. Jizz. I'll change it a little from snoops, but it's fine There's the cage is in Arizona. Oh, I know but that was jazz always writes the jazz station Yeah, it's yeah, obviously jazz. I mean, but no it's not no It's cages. They can call it whatever they want. This isn't even a jazz station. This is a sports station.

Is that right? Oh yeah, yeah. What do you do? Calling themselves Dub Jizz. Like, what the fuck, man? I don't get it. So yeah, it's defunct nowadays anyway. But he works there like-

As soon as the word Jizz- Half of, yeah. Wonder how that ended up happening. WJZZ, the Jizz. Let us drip down upon you. You can call it whatever you want, but we're calling it Jizz. We're calling it the Jizz, that's all it's ever gonna be.

Now while this is going on, she's working in retail at the time, and Mark loved it. This is his lifelong dream, and, because he figures from this lowly local, this is where you start. He can move his way up, and eventually he'll be on Sports Center. You know what I mean?

That's the way. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Burman had to start somewhere, right? Totally, that's the way he's looking at it. So he says, quote, I had the greatest job in the world. This is Mark.

I went to every game. I mean, it was amazing. And she worked at places where she could buy clothes and jewelry and stuff. I mean we were very happy. So yeah, he kind of dismissed her as like she just works. She works to buy jewelry. I was going to every game, every game, every game. So that's a whatever. So they end up having two sons, Max and Tyler. One's born in 93 and one's born in 96. At one point I was like,

oh I won't put their names in there. I was like, they're in their 30s, it's fine. Yeah, I try, whenever someone's like a minor still, I try to keep them out of it, but I'm like, these people are like, one dude's 32 for Christ's sake. Godly. You know, that's enough. So I mean I feel terrible for it for the money

so he said Matt He said I knew she'd be an awesome mother and she was that's mark's statement about flow So they end up moving back to the Huntington Woods area I guess they were living more near the college for a while. They moved back to the Huntington Woods area where they both grew up because they both said well we were such a great place to be raised and great childhood great childhood so let's raise our kids there as well. So they bought a house in the in the area and it's a pricey area it's a nice area Huntington Woods you

know. So he ends up she she becomes a stay at home mom, taking care of the kids while they're here, and he leaves his job in radio. This is before the station went under and all that. He actually had the job, but he got a better job as a mortgage broker making more money. Which, he's fucking miserable, by the way, as you can imagine.

I can't imagine, yeah. Yeah, to go from I go to every game and talk to the athletes. Party time. Talk about sports for a living to mortgage brokering which is the most boring fucking thing I can think of. What are interest rates this morning? Oh my god. It's not even real estate agent where at least you can go oh there's a new, if you're interested

in houses or architecture. Yeah there's a track being sold down the street. Something this is just well you've decided on it. Let's do the paperwork. This is the, it was an awful job, man. So he's doing that. Florence is becoming a stay at home mom, but they are making more money now and can afford to live in the suburb. And they're going to try to raise the family right here. Now, 1998 comes along and Mark suffers a pretty good back injury.

Not sure how it happened. 38 years old? But yeah, he's got a pretty good back injury that he gets to where he has to go to the doctor and you know have a bunch of shit done and everything. So he begins they gave him they gave him Vicodin for it. Which in the 90s in the late 90s is when OxyContin came out and they were aggressively marketing that shit to doctors.

Like, oh my God, I've seen these documentaries on it and things where they're showing the testimonials from back then saying there is zero percent chance of being addicted to this shit. Is that right? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Cause they, they, and Oxy, Oh my God, they're saying Oxy isn't addictive. You can prescribe it to anybody. It's great. You can prescribe it to kids, old people there. It was wild. If you've had two weeks of, of, uh, what do they call that? Experimental dosing of people. It's 100% addictive.

It's very obvious. That's, well that's where the opioid epidemic came from and exploded after that. Exploded after that. What the fuck? They were encouraging doctors to prescribe this to people and the doctors were going along with it because they're making money.

So it was all kind of together at the time. And yeah, and they seemed like they were believing what the clinical trial what their trials from these people said from the companies, but the companies were lying. And so that's ended up happening. It was hard. So he gets viking in for this anyway. And he becomes hooked on them, as one does. He's got concrete shits, yeah?

Yup, and he hasn't shit in a month. In addition to that, he starts, because he can't work also, because his back's all fucked up, so now he's home all the time and he develops alcohol addictions as well. Really? Because I mean, a drink and a Vicodin, you're going to feel great. What would be better with it? You're going to feel like fucking soup all day. You're just gonna be like, yeah.

So I get it. And then he starts getting really heavy into gambling as well. Why would he do this at 38? This is not good. Yeah, to become a pill addict alcoholic gambler at 38 is That's crazy. Bonkers.

And I get the gambling cause he's very into sports. So maybe that's his way of, yeah, yeah. It's just getting worse now because he's bored. So he's got money. Absolutely. And after a while, he just stops going to work. And that's he's just home. He's on pills.

It's not good. Oh, yeah. Florence has to get a job and take care of the family because otherwise, you know, it's a mess. So Mark said it was not only the Vicodin and the gambling, it was my behavior in general, you know, the selfishness. Yeah, that's what he said at one point. They began sleeping in separate bedrooms, the couple, which is never just grossed out.

Yeah, it's just not well, he's just doesn't come to bed or he's passes out at 730 from booze and pills all day hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey recliner with a real real ass groove here. Oily recliner. No shit. So in addition to all this her father Harold says that she never liked her married name. She never liked to be Flo Unger. Yeah, yeah, and it's back. It looks like Flounder. It's and it's also it does look like Flounder. Yeah, it's Flunger. It looks like hello Flounder, but no it's Flo, it looks like. So gross. Hello Flounder, but. No, no, it's Flo. It's Flo. Oh, that's a laugh, okay, I'm so sorry. But in 98, you were still only about 25 years removed

from the odd couple also being like on television, and that's Felix Unger, and he's Tony Randall, the real persnickety guy, and it has a negative connotation to it. Like people say, you're a real Felix Unger, that's not a compliment, you know what I mean? Yikes. So I think that's part of it.

The dad said, she always hated the name Unger and intended to change her name back to Stern. Yeah, I love that today, thank God women can just fucking choose whether or not to take his name. And it's like, no, it's not insulting anymore. Yeah, people used to freak out. Yeah, but the mother-in-law used to be like, she won't even take his name. And it's like, no, it's not insulting anymore. Yeah, people used to freak out. Yeah, but the mother-in-law used to be like, she won't even take his name.

Who gives a shit? People, you don't know how many people have said to that, have made a comment about that to Sarah. It's unbelievable. Really? Yeah, and it's like, why would you want to change your name from a four-letter fucking last name that's a word everyone can spell to Petra Gallo. Why would you want to do that? She was like, does that hurt your feelings? I

was like, fuck no. Are you kidding me? Why? I get it. I can't take hunt. Yeah. I was like, I, I, I, I still want to be a Guinea, but you know, that's fine. But why would you want that? You don't want, You don't take that on purpose. That's given to you when you go, I'm gonna keep this and call it pride. That's what you do. You don't fucking do that on purpose. I mean, you should be able to choose whichever one you enjoy as your name.

Yeah, take a look at the two. Unless there's like, unless your last name is Piss and you're marrying into the shit family, at least you don't have, one of them's gotta be better is the point. Yeah, you can pick what you want. I don't give a fuck. Some people care, but I don't care.

That's between you. Who cares? Figure it out amongst yourselves. It should never matter. Who gives a fuck? So after he, in September of 2002, he decides, Mark decides to try to get his shit together and go to rehab.

Okay, now he's gonna end up, it's like a five month thing he's in rehab for. This is serious. Not, I mean it's supposed to be 28 days, isn't it? He's in a lot of trouble. This is Vicodin, booze, and gambling. So he's getting 28 days for each. He's got like a triad.

And then some more. He's got like a triad of shit he's gotta work out here. It's pretty bad. So he's gonna be there till February of 2003. Florence, Flo here not thrilled with the marriage at this point and is telling people that it's kind of beyond repair. He says at one point, I mean, she was not happy

and she wasn't afraid to show it He said I was in therapy a therapy appointment with our marriage counselor and He said I don't want to tell you exactly what she said That's between us, you know, but that's where it happened and it was painful to hear He's embarrassed. Yeah, so he's she doesn't want anything to do with him at this point anymore She was also at that point working as a mortgage loan officer at Roca Royal Oak Bank. That's what she was doing Yeah, she was just like well, I guess I'll fucking write people's loans and whatever someone's got to write goddamn mortgages in this house To stay afloat. I'll do it So people that know flow know that she has actually been thinking about divorcing him for six or seven years now since before the injury before the Vicodin before any of that shit in a while it's been a while.

Her friend said that she said they had lacked just things in common common interests and there's a lot of lies in the marriage she said to and she wouldn't really elaborate but she would say there's a lot of lies We'll come up. We'll uncover a few of them here. Well, we have three of them. Some of them are hers, too, though That's the thing we'll talk about. Yeah So he gets out of rehab in February 2003 and then August 26th 2003 flow files for divorce Flow gets a file on here. Now Mark fights against it. He's not just saying, great, let's get divorced.

He's saying, I don't want to. No, he says they can reconcile. We can figure it out. He doesn't know the whole story here though. So she asks for a court order freezing their assets at the time. But friends say Mark kept hoping that he and Flo would stay together. A friend of theirs said quote Mark told her he was going to get

custody of the children he was gonna get the house she would get no child support and little alimony so she felt very threatened and one of her relatives said she told me that she would live in a box before she let the kids go. And another friend said, that she said, I don't wanna have to do it, but if he tries to take the kids from me and the house, I'm going to have to get nasty about the divorce. Yikes.

Which, yeah, I'm gonna have to bring up that he's an alcoholic and a gambler and he did this. And there's probably, in any marriage that's been together for over, was this 13 years or something, they've been married, there's plenty of dirt that you could all fling at each other. Everybody's got mud. Every, yeah, the 13 year relationship of every kind.

You could bring up a few occasions where that person did not act in the best, most fucking. Either side, yeah. For every, anybody, that's what I mean. Human being is interacting is how it is. So Tuesday, October 21st, 2003. Okay, there is a divorce hearing. So this is one of the initial hearings.

As you know, this takes many, many times of going to court. Boy, oh boy. For a long time. Each one costs a little bit more. It's a little more in both money and your soul just chipping away at it all Like an ice sculpture making an ice sculpture of an angry person So Flo insisted she would fight to keep the boys Mark had begged her not to

She demanded the release of all the records of Mark's gambling, debts, and drug addictions to be put into the case. And he obviously said, no, I don't want that. Yeah. I object. Not good. So obviously they still live together.

So they're literally driving together to the court to go into court, sit at separate tables and argue and then drive back to the same house together. Nothing better than your own space to decompress after this shit. You need this. You gotta say out loud, can you believe the bitch wants my gambling in this? This asshole? Yeah. You want that? Yeah. So no, they're still at home. Flo said to a bunch of friends, this was like the worst week of her life. Just so stressful. It's horrifying her friend Susan said she said I don't want to talk about it in detail, but I was very upset and

She also said quote. I've been crying on the bathroom floor for the past two nights. That's oh, that's not good That's not good. Her friend said she said they'd been you know warring all week Then there's a guy named Glenn Stark. Just like the guy who started the lumber mill Stark Glenn Stark Now he is Mark's best friend and he's got some more role in this we'll talk about but he's Mark's best friend and Glenn said she said Mark had become increasingly erratic and unpredictable and withdrawn. And Flo also told Glenn Stark that she had spent

that whole week locked in the bathroom crying. And Glenn said, she said he was exhibiting Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde behavior. Okay, maybe he's. Just, you know, at the turn of a fucking switch, he's a different person and he's now he's mean That's that this is also tough because you're getting a guy straight out of rehab Yeah, and then springing life-changing shit on him this might trigger him to go back which might look like

Jekyll and Hyde shit that that too is using here if he's grabbing a fucking bottle here and there some pills I'll rate this shit You never know and that's true to a major life change like that right after getting out of five months of rehab is a that's crazy That's a wild break. Yeah, I think when you get out of rehab, they tell you don't change anything for a while Don't get a divorce. No If you smoke cigarettes keep smoking them if you fucking eat candy keep eating it just drink twice as much just don't do drugs. So If you fucking eat candy, keep eating it. Drink twice as much. Just don't do drugs.

Now, Mark described Glenn Stark as his best friend. As a matter of fact, the night before the divorce hearing, Glenn spent the night at their house. He slept over that night. I don't know why adults are sleeping at other adults' houses, but that's fine. Now, the thing is, Stark has way more involvement in this than just being Mark's best friend He's also been having a secret affair with flow for the last two years

Glenn Glenn you are scumbag Mark you're a tool, but Glenn you're a fucking scumbag. Yeah, that's not really fucked up That's you can't you can't fuck your best friend's wife. Nope. I think that's That's like rule one, right? Yeah, that's rule. Well, I think it's a command Guess what? I will never do I'll never fuck the girl that you love. That's one of the few rules That's like a social rule and a commandment all in one. It's all bad I think it's so much of a rule. You don't even got to say it. You don't have to say it. You just go, you scumbag.

So, hey, you're my best friend. You're probably not going to fuck my wife, right? Yeah, you're right. Totally. I'd be the last guy to fuck your wife, probably. That's what you're supposed to do. Glenn forgot. Yeah.

Your best friend should be trying to get other people to not try to fuck your wife even, like, you know, to help you. So for Glenn full. She's this is yeah, this has been going on for two years. Oh Where they on going Started out with a big email exchange back and forth and they ended up having sex four or five times over this period The last time they had sex up till this point was about a few days before the divorce hearing While he was in rehab well whilst he was still there No, this was while he was in rehab that happened too

But the last time they hooked up was just like a few days before this divorce hearing which is six months after I got out of rehab So yeah, that's that's he used to be their neighbor and He said they were having a what he called a discrete affair Exchanging intimate emails for two years, which is a new thing in the late 90s You could do have an email affair and you know having sex a few times there four or five times Now we don't think mark knew about the affair No, well the fact that he invited Glenn to stay at his house

the night before the divorce proceedings makes me think he probably doesn't know about the affair. Just, you know what I mean? I don't think he knows. Yeah. I can't imagine he does. So, and they asked Stark later on, Glenn, about this, and Glenn Stark said, I asked Mark

if he was uncomfortable with me being there, I guess because they were fighting, and if he preferred that I stayed somewhere else, and he replied that no, he wasn was uncomfortable with me being there, I guess because they were fighting, and if he preferred that I stayed somewhere else, and he replied that no, he wasn't angry with me being there, I wasn't the one who was divorcing him. So I don't think he knows about this affair at all. No clue. I'm certainly helping contribute to it, man. Yeah, but it's also, Mark has no fucking idea this is going on.

Wow. So the day after the hearing, this is a Wednesday, October 22nd of 2003, a neighbor found Flo kneeling in her garden crying. Oh boy. Which is sad. This is Ronald Loeb, he said, quote, I said hi Flo, how are you? What a dumb question

I'm kneeling in a garden crying. How do you think I am? Great flow. How are you? How are you? Clearly the worst days of my life you fucking insensitive cunt How often do you cry in your yard as the my response if I'm her? Yeah, I'm in public Yard is the my response if I'm her yeah, I'm in public This is wild flow, how are you and she looked up at me and she was crying and she said not very well Obviously she says I say should have followed it up with obviously dickhead Just don't even say we're look at a man crying and be like if he has any sense of anything like oh Are you oh yeah, can I help are you okay? Are you okay is all right. Are you okay? Are you bleeding? Yeah

Well, is this the beginning middle or end of this crying fit? Are you okay? Are you coming down? Yeah. Well, it means like are you coming down? You're gonna be all right in a minute You can talk about it. Do you need a minute to just cry it out? Do you have to like hug somebody and punch them on the shoulder like what you got? What do you need? You're kneeling did you twist a knee ankle do you need a hand it's an injury or is this internal or external let me know please I have band-aids and booze I don't know which one to give you so he said she told me that they were going up north and that

she did not want to go and that she was afraid to go up north. Oh. Now what he did is, it's October 24th, is a Friday of 2003, he made reservations to go up to the Watervale Inn because they go up every single year, their whole relationship, it's a tradition. They go up there, they stay in the cottages that we talked about, see why, people go,

why do they put that review in there? Gee, I wonder why. Because I'm telling you, this is why. No, I don't have to explain Watervale in the middle of a fucking murder investigation. So, or in the middle of a murder story. So yeah, they're going up, they stay in one of these cottages,

they do it every year, they bring the kids up there. You know, they drink wine, the kids watch movies, it's that kind of deal here. So they're gonna head up there on this Friday Claire Stern who was flows mom said the day before leaving for the resort her daughter told her that mark had threatened to take the House and the kids and give her a thousand dollars a month Yeah So that's what she was telling her mother 19 or 2003

Pretty weak. Yeah. Well., take the house and the kids. Well I mean, yeah, I don't know. Obviously they're going back and forth threatening each other here. So they stay at the Watervale Inn, which is on Herring Lake, and Flo told a few people that she had some issues about going,

and even Mark said, I'm sure she had reservations about going. I had reservations about going, you know, but we were dedicated to the kids. Yeah. So that's how it is. He said things seemed fine when they got in the car to drive up there, they listened to music,

and it's a four hour drive. So, if there's a lot of beef, it's gonna come out in a four hour drive, but these two, I don't know, I think maybe these two have kind of trained themselves to be in a completely different mode around the kids. Maybe. As some people do.

There are oftentimes in couples, one of them is real good at just fucking disconnecting, not giving a shit about it, while the other one internally stoos, so they might be just doing that. Yeah, that could be what's happened, or like I said, they could be trying to put a good face on it, or they might be just doing that yeah, that could be what's happened or like I said They could be trying to put a good face on it, or they could be just you know who knows so For our disconnecting whenever we're fighting. I'm just like you know I mean if I'm in a relationship, and I'm fighting

I'm just I could just give two fucks. I can ignore that person and act like this house and room is empty I'm terrible at that. I can't do that. I'm not a good fucking ignore you. Like, I'm not a good ignore. We're going to fucking clear this up. We're going to clear this up or not clear it up, but we're not going to let it linger. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think when I'm at that point, my, my goal is to not clear it up and just hope you disappear. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a very, I think, is what a therapist would tell you. I'll be bringing that up to my therapist very shortly.

You probably had that one talked about a couple of times, probably. It's getting reestablished real quick here, I promise you that. So yeah, they're in the car, they're doing this. Mark said the colors were pretty to look at on the way up, because it's October driving through the woods in Michigan, so beautiful. He said the kids were having a ball it couldn't have been better. They went to dinner at a local restaurant called I hope it's dingy's and not dingy's. It's dingy's. I hope it's dingy's. It's still growth. It's still dingy's sounds disgusting. Then they went back to their cottage after a dinner at dingy's. Yeah, which is weird because the inn has dinner

Right, so I don't know they just wanted to have maybe it's a maybe it's fancier and the kids they want to just get them Some chicken strips or something dingy's is just like fish and chips and it's yeah real lakefront shit Yeah, yeah, maybe they got that kind of shit. So easy you're there rather than wine Yes, sir. Yes beer, no wine. We got wine, we got white and red, which one you want? It's a big bottle each back there. The red just has food coloring. That's it.

It's just white Carlo Rossi with food coloring in it. The gallon. Why is this red sparkling? Shut up and drink it. Shut up, it's fine. So what, it's got fucking strawberry Kool-Aid in it relax if you shake it it stops sparkling it's pretty good so they stay at one of the cottages called the Mary Ellen that's the cottage

all the cottages have names like boats yeah like boats and it's just a few hundred yards from the lake and it's ideal you know it's idyllic it's a few hundred yards from the lake and it's idyllic. It's idyllic. It's a nice place and that's, it was a favorite spot for people to go would be to have a glass of wine and watch the evening sunsets on the boat deck, which is also there. Oh fuck, it faces the sunset. Yeah, and by the way, being late October in Michigan, this place does not have as many people as it would be here in mid-August, say. Yeah, water's too cold.

Yeah. Water's too cold. This is definitely a different type of people. Like the boat deck isn't crowded with people at the end of the night. You want to go have a glass of wine. Sweaters and jeans on the lake. That's great. Fucking hoodie on the lake. Shit. Yeah. A hoodie and some wine on the lake. That sounds amazing. Forget it. I have no interest in being wet. I want to be dry and cold. I love it. Dry, chilly, something nice in my hand to drink and eat, and I'm a happy fucking guy. Smoke a joint out there, I'll be a real, I'm thrilled.

So the boys settle in to watch a movie. They put a movie on for the kids in the, because they're like 10 and seven, so if you have a small little cottage, you can throw a movie on and they'll be all right for a couple hours, they won't kill each other. 10 to three, it's cars. cars are one of the toy stories. I think two just came out So you're before I think so

So they sit to watch a movie and mark and flow went down to the boat deck To have adult talk so you don't have to sit there with fucking Pixar voices blasting in the background while you're trying to have serious conversation Let's be uncomfortable without Tom Hanks. Yeah We don't need Tim Allen here for this. Okay We just don't So Flo and Mark sitting on the boat deck and the boat deck is attached to the resort the proper there's a big building with the suites inside of it with the shared bathrooms.

And so you walk from your cottage up to that to sit on the boat deck. So they're up there, it's late evening, eight, nine o'clock. About 9 p.m., a fisherman named Fred Oeflin, O-E-F is the way his name starts, that stuff, Oeflin, he landed his boat in, it's dark, and he landed it right there at the, you know, at the shore. And he speaks to Florence and Mark,

and he gets out of the boat, and he talks to them for a little while, for some reason. I see a couple enjoying a private moment. Let me row up and talk to them. Let me go bother them. You think they're rigged. Like, the fuck, man, I would leave. I'm a boat guy. Yeah we see it. Yeah you see two people in the dark with glasses of wine you're gonna not go up to them right? I don't know if they don't have a boat I

might feel like I just big-timed them. I guess. It's just a motor but it's not even a big boat though. Oh really? It's just a fucking like a motor like an outboard. Yeah Like a little bass fishing boat basically like one of those and my oven rude still form more expensive than your fucking wine So he hung out with them for a little while Fred talked to them and then he left in his motorboat They did have a conversation with him. He said it was pitch black outside Fred says and He told the Ungers that he was about to take his boat across the lake. And this is the middle of nowhere, it's fucking black as night,

black as night, as literally, so. I guess he said, quote, she mentioned she wouldn't like to be out on the lake. She said, I'm afraid of the dark. I wouldn't go out on that lake this late, I'm afraid of the dark, she said. And the and the water looks black in the middle of the night. It's so scary. If it's choppy, too, that's terrifying.

So nobody, as Fred said, nobody, he didn't hear any arguing amongst the couple of Mark and Flo. He didn't hear anything suspicious, anything like that. Imagine this. You help your little brother land a great job abroad. But when he arrives, the job doesn't exist. Instead, he's trapped in a heavily guarded compound, forced to sit at a computer and scam innocent victims. All while armed guards stand by with shoot-to-kill orders.

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And here her relatives back her up. Her sister, I believe, said she was afraid of the dark. And another relative said she was very afraid of the dark. I reiterate what they say, and that very. She's actually afraid of the dark, I think. Yeah, Flo's father, Harold, said that she has been afraid of the dark for as long as he could remember. He said, quote, when she was a little child,

she said, hold me, daddy, I'm scared of the dark. And now, 30 years later, still scared of the dark. So that's the way it is. I got 14 in the same way right now. Yeah, it happens. I can't get her to take the fucking trash out at night. Outside? In the backyard, man.

I'm the light of the house. You have lights out there. You have tons of lights out there. It's brightest day out there. I don't know. She's like. Flick the goddamn light switch on. That's what I told her, turn the light on. Yeah, but everywhere else is dark

Oh, yeah, it's not don't look there Look where you can see which is right to the garbage can throw it. I'm not asking you to go exploring back there Find a lost tribe civilization just fucking owls or coyotes in the backyard And that's the only thing that could get you here and an owl is it gonna get you? in the backyard and that's the only thing that could get you here. And an owl isn't gonna get you. No, no. You're much bigger than one, I promise.

Yeah, they're terrifying. You could probably punch it and kill it. Oh yeah. It's not gonna want any piece of you. She's out of her mind. That's funny. So 9.30 p.m. here, Mark says he walks back to the couple's cottage, which is about 100 yards away,

to put Max and Tyler to bed. So there we go. They can't even stay up late on vacation, rough. No. Rough. So he said, quote, Flo was very comfortable on that deck. She wasn't ready to come in yet, I guess. So that's why he did it.

So he said he spent about 15 minutes with the boys. And when he went back to the boat deck, Flo was gone. Really? Couldn't find her now. He walked 100 yards spent about 15 minutes with the boys and when he went back to the boat deck flow was gone Really couldn't find her now. He walked 100 yards sat 15 minutes walked 100 yards and she's gone So he saw a light on at maggie and lynn duncan's house who are one of the property owners here I assume these are the people who aren't nice. They're not very nice. Not very nice that guy said And she figured or he said he figured that she was there So she probably cuz they know these people cuz they've gone there a bunch of times. So she's Maggie's all right Yeah, so he's like alright. She probably went over there the lights on that's the only thing that would make sense So he said he didn't go over there and look he just figured she was there

She probably is already saying negative things about me. I don't want to show my face where they already hate me. He literally said he thought maybe she needed some privacy with him. Maybe she was talking shit about him. So he then said, you know, he said that she must have visited the neighbor. I don't know. And even he said, quote, this is Mark, it wasn't anything earth shattering that made me not go up there to the neighbor's house. I just thought about it and said, oh, she's up there,

she's fine, and I went back to the cottage. So he said he went back to the cottage, put a movie on and fell asleep. So he woke up right about daybreak the next morning and noticed she wasn't there. Still no flow. No flow, I got no flow. So he called up Lynn and Maggie Duncan and said you know

Hey, what up with flow? Did you see her? Yeah? Why'd she stay there now the Duncan said? This is their Counting of that they said that he said quote. This is mark flow hasn't come home all night And they said that he said this through sobs. He was sobbing on the phone. Oh So Lynn Duncan told under he and his wife would look for he's well we can go out and help you look for Duncan said quote I thought why the hell would he be crying and not looking for her himself which is a good question and also why people say you're not very nice on a review maybe they might that's that's a little too

direct for some people you know what I mean.'re not willing to help out you you're rude dicks I'll help you but Jesus Christ can't find is what the woman that's gonna leave him so he the guy said I mark told him quote this is this is the owner talking about mark he said he was going to check around the inn to see if she had taken another room He didn't explain that to us. He had indicated that she might be suicidal. Oh Yeah, so the Lynn the way she described the way he described the call He said it just sounded like somebody in tears saying this is mark and my wife hasn't come home all night So they're like, all right. Well, where the fuck is she so they look here out the door the

Maggie and Lynn Margaret and Lynn and they look out the door they stood in their living room and looked at the deck through their sliding glass doors and Maggie Duncan noticed that one of the wooden lounge chairs lounge chairs On the deck had been moved from one corner of the deck to another corner of the deck On the deck had been moved from one corner of the deck to another corner of the deck So they were like that's interesting. Yeah, so they got dressed and walked out toward the chair to see what was going on there So they're gonna look and they they go their separate ways. He Mark says he's gonna go look over here They're gonna go look out on the deck and you know, wherever they're gonna look so they walk out there This is Lynn Duncan and Maggie Duncan. Maggie gets there

first, she peeks over the edge of the deck. Now the deck here, the way it goes, is there's a deck and then there's a concrete landing below the deck, like another sidewalk, and then there's the water. There's the lake right there. So that's the way it goes. She said she peeked over the edge Maggie did and she saw Florence. Oh bobbing in the water. Oh no. Not good. Yeah. So this is in the concrete 12 feet below the deck. 12 feet fell feet a drop concrete slab than the water. So she said that her feet were closest to a concrete breaker wall and her head toilet pointed toward the center of the lake and she is on her face, you know, bobbing up and down in the, you know, like a dead man float and not good.

So Lynn Duncan, the husband here said that he was not far behind. He said he saw the body in the water and picked up the blue blanket that Flo had had with her that was on the deck and moved it I guess the blanket was on the cement slab below the deck down there so he picked it up and moved it he said when he picked it up there was a puddle of blood under it oh he was like oh shit, oh shit, what the hell? Yeah. He just saw I'll pick this garbage up before it blows into the lake. And instead there's a puddle of blood on it. So he ran over to the cottage,

the Mary Ellen where the Ungers are staying here and about halfway there he runs into Mark. Yeah. Okay. And he said that, now Duncan is crying at this point You know Nobody wants to see that he touched marks chest and said mark. You're not going to like it. She's in the water and He said that mark screamed and took off running directly to where the body was in the lake Yeah, he jumped in the water.

Oh no! Mark does. Duncan waded in, followed him, but walking. He said the two men hugged and cried together at the lake's edge, just sitting there, you know, having a good cry. Fuck dignity. Fuck that. Now the police arrived and the Dunc's leave the resort after they give their statement

They take off like I don't really want to be here Yeah, you know this for now. I don't want to be here during corp season. It's not as good. It's not as fun Man So Lin Duncan here the husband said I looked down there and I could see her in the water and after Just after a minute or so, I started to cry. My first reaction was suicide. Really? Yeah, that's right.

And Lynn said, we have memories there that'll never disappear, never. And Maggie Duncan said, I'll carry that to my grave, finding this poor dead woman here. So Maggie calls 911, and they answer the phone, and she says, they say, you know, 911 she says, yeah, I'm pretty upset. That's how she leads it.

Yeah, yes. Can you talk for a minute? Yeah, I'm pretty upset. Why is that? Well, I got the final Jeopardy wrong tonight and I was beating my husband until that came up. Well, there's that. And then this other part where my memories of this lake are fucking ruined. Oh yeah oh yeah there's a corpse in the water that's what I was

trying to tell you. She sounds nice as shit somebody's an asshole on the review. That's what I'm saying. She's calling 911 for Christ's sake. These people are decent it sounds like so yeah she said I'm pretty upset they said okay well what's your name you know let's start there she says Maggie Duncan spells it out she said I believe there is a suicide or a drowning or something Is what she said so That's what she says on 9-1-1 now Here is Mark as he ran into the water his statement about this

He said I picked her up and put my arms underneath her and just lifted her up and there was blood Just started coming out and I just freaked and I just about dropped her all right, and I just lifted her up and there was blood just started coming out and I just freaked and I just about dropped her and I just dropped her. I mean I'm in the water with my wife who's just cold and bloody and he said I he said I wasn't thinking my whole life just ended right then I wasn't thinking about anything my whole world had ended right there. So like we said the blanket now that blue blanket that covered a blood puddle here, Mark tells at least one person in the days following this that he had retrieved the blanket

after Duncan had already found the body in order to keep her warm. So he said, I grabbed the blanket to keep her warm, which makes no sense. Why would he do that? She's dead. She's dead and he didn't find the blanket or touch it. Duncan did. So it makes no sense why he would lie about that. Not sure.

Yeah. So Lynn, the one that called the police, the husband, as his wife called the police, he ended up, like I said, telling Mark and they had a good cry on the shoulder there. Lin said my first reaction you think the best of the worst but for him to go like that well you start to think other things. I'm not going to say what I think but you come up with a conclusion and it's not pleasant. So that is some midwestern shit right there. Listen, I pretty much thought

this guy killed his wife, but you know, it's not nice to say that. So you get it. So he said that he had the thing that kept bothering him is he hadn't told Mark where the body was found. Right. He said, why would he run there? Lynn said he jumped in the water right next to her. And at that moment I looked around and said to myself, my god, he did it. What? How else would he know? That is wild.

That is a fascinating, right out of the gate, he's like, my god, that man did it. That's some big ass lake and he jumped right in the spot? He knew exactly where in lake fucking, you know, whatever. Michigan? Yeah, it's crazy. Or Lake Herring or whatever the hell it is. So the police arrive, obviously. Deputy Troy Packard responds and he said, well, all that's reported to me is there's

a body in the water. And you're thinking, was it an accident? Was it a suicide? Was it murder? You know, he goes, I don't know what the hell I'm walking into here. He's the first officer. He said he sensed something was off the minute he looked over the boat deck railing.

He said, I noticed the top railing was broken, fractured out. So like the railing that keeps you on there. You're wooden on these boat decks. Apparently it was busted out. He said, next I noticed a rather large pool of blood. And he said that he, he calls 911. Okay. Cause cops, I guess they'll call 911 to, I don't know if they have radio, they don't have radios

on them or something. I don't think that go back to like the PlayStation. Maybe there's only 500 people here. That's what I mean. So he calls, calls 911 and said, better call out the troops on this one. And the operator says, oh yeah. And he said, yeah, I got blood. And the operator says, oh Jesus, are you kidding? No, no, I'm pretty upset. Cop calling 911 for backup. You fucking idiot. No, I'm not kidding. He said, no, I'm not kidding. There's blood on the cement platform and now she's in the water. And the operator said, oh God, I want less of a shock reaction from my 911 operators, by the way.

Right? I don't want to ever hear them go, oh God, ever. No matter what it is, they go, okay, stay calm. You're the calm one wow oh god she's that's followed that's following oh Jesus are you kidding which is even worse so the cop responds so how did the blood get from the cement platform before she got in the water you know that? That's what he said on the tape. So investigators obviously start with the boathouse

and they comb the whole scene and it's a murder investigation. It's one of those things, or a death investigation, I should say. On the wooden upper deck, a post was broken, and that was how the railing got broken. And then 12 feet feet below that on the platform is a blood stain below that and shallow water is Flo's body. So bink bink bink. The cop also said Mark Unger seemed

evasive. He said he just kept on saying I don't know and I asked him well when was the last time you've seen Florence alive? I don't know. Hmm. Every question's I don't know. He also watched Mark make a series of cell phone calls. He said he was frequently interrupted by call waiting. And he said, quote, he would click over. He would answer it, and then he would start trying to cry and moan, she's gone, I can't believe it, in this great emotion.

And then he'd go back to the other person and he was all calm and fine again. Because he had already- But he did it. He already went through all of that. Yeah. With that person. So he said it just didn't seem right for someone to be able to turn that on and off like that.

It was wild. So a few hours, I mean this is a, you know, what's going on past midnight. They're going into the scene. Just a few hours after this discovery of flows body Mark already had the family car packed up and ready to go. He's ready to go home. He's ready to go Well weekends about over I'm gonna Jesus dinghy serves a hell of a late night meal. Let me tell you some

So he said that mark just kept repeating. I just want to leave. I just want to leave I just want to leave so the deputy said I found it peculiar because that's all he was saying. He just wanted to leave. And here's Florence still lying face down in the water. You know, like, wouldn't you want to see how this works out at least a little bit? I mean, I, I, yeah, but I guess these guys aren't going through a divorce. That's, yeah, but it's fucking, that's crazy. So they noticed that he had packed his vehicle and seemed eager to leave, so they obtained a search warrant quickly to search his vehicle and the interior of the cottage that he was

in. So they recover among a bunch of things, but the main thing they find that's a little suspicious is they recover a pair of men's shoes from the vehicle. On one of the shoes is a white paint smear. And they said the white paint ends up being tested and is found to be chemically consistent with the white paint on the railing of the boathouse deck. So he got white paint from the boathouse deck on his shoe.

That takes some torque. Exactly. That doesn't happen if you just accidentally rub it on there. If it's dry, that doesn't just get on there. Yeah, so that night, by the next evening, Mark's under a big cloud of suspicion and the police have given Flo's parents temporary custody of the boys. Yeah, that's where we're at. His children have been removed from him.

Yes, and that's what he was trying to avoid. I think which is interesting So they said that when they questioned Unger it appeared that he would suddenly try to cry and then change his demeanor Even when he was talking to the cops he does this all the time The one cop said that Mark told him that he did not think his wife had committed suicide And then he did not try to lift her out of the water because she was quote all bloody and then he did not try to lift her out of the water because she was quote, all bloody. Interesting. Now enter the hairdresser.

Okay, a new character into this thing here. This is Flo's hairdresser for years, back in town. She said that, he had told the police and most of his friends when he returned from all of this, because he calls everybody and says, hey, Flo's dead. So they all go, what happened? And he tells them.

He tells the hairdresser, or he tells most everybody else that he went back, like we said, he went back, put the kids to bed, came back 15 minutes later, she's gone. He told the hairdresser, though, that he put the children in bed and had returned to the deck and she was there on the deck and then he told her that Florence was still there, she was fine, so I just went back up to the house and she never came home. So that's very different

stories that he's telling people there and that could be a confusion on the hairdressers part. Who knows? Hairdresser Tasha Hanks of Palazzo hair salon, you know, in Royal Oak over here, big hair. Oh, you know it. You fucking know. Been her hairdresser for 10 years. Knows how to, knows how to fucking tease your hair out here. So, um, she said that a friend had told her that Florence was dead. So she called Florence's phone to find out if it was true, and Mark answered the phone and gave her an account that wasn't the same account he told the police.

Oh? That's, like I said, he told everyone, including the cops, he went back to the boathouse, came back to the cottage, came back, she was gone. Yeah. He told her, I went back, came back, she was there, and I said good night and walked away, and then she was gone. Yeah, he told her I went back came back She was there and I said good night and walked away and then she was gone So very different story, so they have a funeral for her

Hundreds of people attend. She's very well liked and you know I guess if you're working like a bank doing mortgage stuff you probably know a lot of people, too Yeah, and if you know a lot of people and you're tragically killed a lot of people show up fuck Yeah, it's really a shitty reason to die like a lot of people Yeah, and she grew up here to our accident you did it Maybe yeah, you're a drunk driver and took out an eight-year-old on a bicycle on the way through Not many not many So yeah show this though, and if it's her hometown too And so I mean, she's grew up there and everything.

Now, within days of this death, there's the funeral, and then Mark, he hasn't been charged with anything. They've just asked him a couple of questions. He hires a big time defense attorney now. Really? Yeah, a guy named Bob Harrison, who's handled over 100 murder cases. Have they said what her injuries are?

We'll get to that in about two seconds here. Yeah, because they're going through all that because they really have to, the medical exam takes a few days on her. There's a lot to, the water fucks things up too, so it's tough. Bob Harrison, defense attorney, said, quote, I had a client in a world of trouble.

Yeah. And he said, well, whether it's going to be good enough or not, you'll get everything I've got. That's what he said. That's him as a lawyer. I'll throw it on the floor, on the table for you. I'll give you everything I got. Now Mark and his lawyer decide to set up a polygraph test.

Now this polygraph test is not set up, it's not at the police station with a police officer doing the polygraph test. Now this is a private polygraph test he's gonna take. This is a controlled environment where you can be very calm. With the polygrapher, I was gonna say. Is that a polygraph? Polygraph.

Polygraph or I guess? Polygrapher sounds like he's got five wives, doesn't it? Doesn't sound right. Yeah, sounds like he's got five children and he molests. Sounds weird. So the polygrapher is a, they call a respected retired policeman. So a random polygrapher in there.

So this is a private polygraph test, which means nothing, because he could have taken it 20 times. There's no, they don't have to tell the cops that, oh, here's the results after 20 times They got it right up and get him a glass of water They can do yeah things to calm them down totally so they said he passed that passed that lie detector test with flying colors Absolutely because it was paid by you. Yes, you paid a guy. Yeah, it's you're not gonna cut him a check after he says you're fucking liar

well Never mind then You paid a guy, yeah. You're not gonna cut him a check after he says, you're a fucking liar. Well, nevermind then. Maybe I won't pay it. Yeah, I don't know if you want this pizza. No, I think you need kind of a third party who doesn't work for either person would probably be the best way to do that. So medical opinions here. Here we go.

Doctor who performed Flo's autopsy cataloged her many bruises, broken hip, internal injuries, fractured skull. Yeah. They think she pretty much fell on her head off of the dock onto the concrete. Yeah, head hip, exactly. Yeah, that's what they think. She fell like kind of on both.

Slumped in, yeah. So he says she became unconscious the second she hit the concrete because her skull is fractured here. Now another medical examiner here, an Oakland County medical examiner, after reviewing the case, he concluded Florence died of drowning

and classified her death as homicide. Now the way he puts this, it's weird because they don't know whether it's drowning whether it's her injuries what it is But he said bodies do not walk into the water and bodies do not bounce That's what he said. He said there is no possibility for her to take herself into the water. You can't hit the ground Fracture your skull and hip and then throw yourself off the fucking shore into the water She slumped onto that concrete and then somebody kicked her ass off into the water unconscious, so she drove. Oh my god Yeah, he said that she would have been injured so badly by the impact that to her head that she would have been rendered

instantaneously unconscious. No way to get into the water from that. So they said, quote, the dead woman had plunged 12 feet to a concrete apron, which was stained with blood, yet somehow had moved over a break wall nearly three feet away and wound up in the water. Holy unlikely basically. Um, and the one doctor said, I have a hard time understanding how she got in the water and was

Emphatic that flow was immobile on the cement where she was placed in the water and drowned Yeah, so there was a prosecutor here that asked doctor based on these injuries and based on the physical condition That she would have had as a result of these injuries would she have been capable of getting into the water on her own? And he said, absolutely not. And he said, the doctor said, she didn't go into the water. Being unconscious, she could have only been placed into the water.

You can't go into the water if you're unconscious. Another doctor here, Paul McKeever of the University of Michigan, looked at the samples of Flo's brain tissue, performed several tests and said, one showed proof of a brain injury that could only have appeared if flow had been alive on the cement a very long time.

So fell on there and then, you know, the brain was dying or whatever. This doctor said an hour and a half, she would have been alive for an hour and a half. Okay. And that's what they're saying. So they said, and if she was not capable of getting into the water on her own power, hour and a half. Okay. And that's what they're saying. So they said, and if she was not capable of getting into the water on her own power, somebody

must have put her into the water and they had a long time to think about it before they did it. Yeah. They said it's late October, there's nobody out but them. Okay. And it's late getting late at night, you know, so yeah, it's when I think a lot of people here get up early to get out on the lake and shit like that if they're Gonna do anything Medical witnesses said that they did the problem is they have different medical examiners who don't agree on the exact cause of her death

That's the problem. What they thought They all agree There's no way she could have gotten to the water on her own if she hit the concrete first that they agree on but some people Say it was brain injuries and some people say it was drowning. And it doesn't matter if the drowning thing was the cause or not because somebody still put her over there. Whether or not she drowned here or there because she didn't just fall is the thing.

Yep, and that's the district attorney's, his stance here is no matter what the fuck caused it, she didn't do it on her own. That would have been impossible. By the way, it's lower Herring Lake is the lake that she's in, just to be clear here. So after two days, the preliminary exam was postponed and the medical examiners said that Florence's death

was a homicide, not an accident, but like I said, once a drama, not an accident, but like I said, one said drama, one said drowning. Now his lawyer is going to ask a judge later on to throw out one of the conclusions, which is the critical evidence that prosecutors need to prove her death was murder basically. So they want that thrown out. And he'll get it thrown out for a minute too,

but then it'll come back in. He said the defense says that the Dragovich, she's the guy who says she drowned, said that his statement was neither generally accepted in the relative relevant scientific community or forensic pathologists, nor was it based on vetted research. And they told this medical examiner about that. They said, what do you say about this? And he said, no judicial ruling can change the facts. Doesn't matter what you rule, this is what happened.

Doesn't matter, yeah. You could make a law that says there's no gravity, but you're still gonna stand on the ground. You're gonna write that sitting at a table. Yeah, and put a pencil down and it won't float away. There's a reason for that. So they said that the Ungers now, they also find out that the Ungers

had a life insurance policies naming each other as beneficiaries and that Mark stood to collect about 750 grand from this death as well. Wow. That's a good chunk. So months pass. Nothing happens.

It seems stalled, they don't charge Mark with anything No, months pass. Yeah. Nothing happens. Really? It seems stalled, they don't charge Mark with anything, and at this point, he's fighting to get custody of his son's back. That's what he wants. He's ignoring the other thing and Flo's parents don't want to give it to him because they think he killed their daughter. So makes sense. Claire, Florence's mother, said this is not about the custody of children.

This is about a murder investigation. Finish the murder investigation, and then we'll fucking talk about it. The judge refuses to give him custody. He refused because he was suspected in the death. I guess it was a, they called it a, by the way, the judge chastised attorneys for both sides for their increasingly contentious

and emotional public battle. By the way, that's hilarious. You two are both embarrassing. I just want to let you know. Tired of your shit. Yeah, I'm tired of all of your shit here. So they were asking the judge to reunite the boys with their father and until a trial, a debt, a date is set for the neglect trial because they're saying, well, he neglects

his kids because he gambles and drinks and does Vicodin and killed their mother. So you know, all those different things. The defense was critical of prosecution lawyers for filing a document that outlined the prosecution's theory of the case, which he contended was an attempt to poison public opinion against his client. He said that is a kind of a prejudice. That kind of prejudice is difficult, if not impossible, to overcome, public sentiment.

So the lawyer told the judge that his client was a loving father who made his kids meals, helped them with their homework, and sang to his children at night. The lawyer said, you have everything you need. You know everything you need to know to place the boys with their father. While his lawyer is saying this in court, fucking Flo's mom Claire is clutching a picture

of Flo and shaking her head in disgust going no, no, no, killed my daughter. So the judge turned down a request that would have returned custody to Mark and instead she agreed to allow under some increased visitation time, but not before telling the attorneys they've acted shittily in their court here. The judge said that verbal shots the two sides were taking at each other were getting back to the boys and she said she would not stop the attorneys from talking to the media, but suggested they maybe used a little more discretion to not get it back to the kids. They said this is a think about the effect your statement is having on those two little boys and the prosecutor said we believe Mr. Unger did kill his wife and

we believe it would have been an injustice to return the boys to their father. So May 2004 comes around. This has been over six months now. Finally Mark is charged with a crime here. He's going to be charged with murder. Really? Yeah, there's some first it's first degree, then they say it's second degree because there's a hearing about it and then it's returned to first degree later on. But the only link to that body they have is him jumping face first into the right spot.

That's pretty much it. Yeah. Whoa. And his weird behavior. Whoa. Yeah. And the fact that unless a stranger came and said, I'll just dump this unconscious woman in the water, which would be a real weird thing to do.

And thinking there's only one person on that whole property with the motivation to throw this lady in the water. Yeah. But. Yeah. All they've got are him jumping to the right spot. That's it. That's the right spot? That's it. That's the thing though.

That's right. They don't have... I don't like that. That's tough. And a smear of a paint smear. That I mean, if you've had a couple of beers, you could scrape your shoe against a deck and get white paint on it. I don't know if he was a skater when he was a kid.

How many friends do you know that like jump off rails and shit? I could kick flip this. You know what I mean? Yeah, I tell you, maybe he's doing that. Who the hell knows? and shit? Yeah, I could kick flip this. You know, I mean, yeah, maybe he's doing that. Who the hell knows? Maybe I could have kept like, or maybe they're sitting there talking and he's nervously kicking his fucking foot against the side of the thing. There is that because there is a lot of discomfort in this fucking situation.

Totally. So I tend to kind of get a little jumpy in situations like that. Yeah, big time. So they picked him up as he was pulling away from his house. They got him, they pulled out of his driveway. They said an hour later, his Red Ford Expedition remained in the driveway with an open briefcase on the front passenger seat, left it behind.

So they claim Mark and obviously that he pushed her off and that's what happened. And so the prosecutor here, this is Donna Pendergrast, she leads the prosecution. Her dad was a Detroit cop, so she's all about this shit. She has been called Michigan's best prosecutor at the time. This was her 93rd murder case. Nine, really?

Yeah, and the defense guy has over 100 murder cases. Where are these people living? Fuckin' Michigan, yeah, Michigan. A lot of murders there, it's a good one. So when she is sitting down with Chris Hanson later on, Chris Hanson said, how many have you won? And she said, all but two. 91 and two, or 90 and two at this point, I guess.

And they said, that's a pretty good record. And she said, I've been lucky. Yeah. So she also here, she had kind of her work cut out for her here because this isn't the strongest case. Hanson said to her, there's no DNA evidence. And she said, no.

They said, there's no fingerprints. And she said, no, but we had circumstantial evidence and we believed what was admissible as evidence that we could present a pretty clear picture for the jury. So let's give it a shot. This trial is going to be by the way, it doesn't take place till May of 2006. Wow. Actually late April because it's a nine week trial. Nine weeks.

That's over two months. That's a long time. That is really rare for a trial to be that long I mean that's big you got to have money to pay lawyers to do all that present that kind of evidence that's he is spending that 750 right now so the jury is six men six women and the trial is has mountains of conflicting bullshit on both sides pathology reports are the main deal for the prosecution and a recreation of Mark's walk down to the water

that morning. They did a wooden mock-up of the deck railing and all that kind of thing here. So it's a big trial. It's taking place in the next county over from this county. They moved, changed a venue. So it's a huge trial in a tiny county. It's one place in the next county over from this county. They moved, changed a venue. So it's a huge trial in a tiny county. It's one of those, which are always a mess

because like they don't have the proper media accommodations. It's tough. So the prosecutors say, obviously, pushed his wife off a boathouse deck and we know the rest here. They told the court that Mark Unger could not stand the thought that his wife wanted to divorce him and that she had had an affair with his best friend. Now we don't have any evidence that he knew about that. Yeah.

Like I said, he might've just learned that when you accused him. That's exactly when discovery he would have learned that when the prosecutor's show. Yeah. But that's what's fucking weird is that unless he found out in the three days in between when this guy slept at their house And when they went on this trip, I don't know why she would have told him about that before a divorce Why would you give unless yeah, you wouldn't give her any You wouldn't give him any ammunition in the divorce because an affair now. It's a neat Yeah, he's gambling and doing this but she's having affairs

So he's trying to he's trying to say we can reconcile she may say well no because your best friend's deputy Dylan so no but that's not worth throwing your whole divorce case away I don't think just to get a shot in because she she's been wanting like planning this out for six years and that would just fuck her entire divorce case I would imagine I don't think she was planning on bringing up that she was banging dude's best friend during the divorce of why she's such a great lady and he's a piece of shit. So it's fucked, real fucked.

So the prosecutor said, well, in this case, it was pretty clear that this woman was not just scared but terrified of the dark. And the bottom line is, if you believe that she's truly afraid of the dark, then she simply would not have stayed out on that deck where it's pitch black. Then his story failed from the get-go, they say. They say a frightened woman, an escalating custody fight, betrayal and tears and all

this shit. Prosecutors told the jury that pressure boiled over on the deck and they argued and maybe Mark snapped. maybe he pushed flow Maybe he just shoved her and then he went back to the cottage But they don't know that's all circumstantial the speculation. They said, you know, that's tough They said the problem is they have to show that she didn't die from an accidental fall but that he whether he Shoved her off the deck or not. he did put her in the water where she drowned.

So that's what they have to prove. Yeah. They said, the only way the injury like this can occur is as the result of blunt force. Looking down on the spinal cord, which we had to cut off to remove the brain. That sounds bad. So the defense lawyer said that the rail

around the boathouse was old and rotten and gave way when she leaned against it and she fell. Open and shut case. The railing really is the culprit here. They produced several expert witnesses to disprove the prosecution's theory, all circumstantial, obviously, here.

The defense tells the jurors that the police botched the investigation starting when the resort owner called 911. She mentioned suicide. The dispatcher passed it along to the officer at the scene. But they said the officers got caught up looking into suicide and missed the real evidence pointing to an accident. Yeah.

That's what it is. So, I mean, mean obviously they missed it. The defense dismissed the motion that there was anything sinister about Mark running to the spot that Flo lay dead. They said of course Mark ran right there. The boat deck was the last place he'd seen her and he just watched Lynn Duncan walk up from the exact spot. But he didn't because it's pitch black out. You don't see him walking up from that spot. That's the thing. You don't see see you're not gonna see him I mean it came to a good distance right he came to tell you and you you didn't see

him walking no if you did then you would have been there when yeah no so mark insists that he didn't learn about the affair until months after flows death during pretrial hearings when they got discovery. He said it so it couldn't have been a motive if he didn't know about it. So the defense still has to deal with the prosecution's medical case though and the blood stain on the cement is a pretty hard piece of evidence that's hard to... you can't... it's impossible to jump into the water from the boat deck. And and not see the blood. Yeah well you can't you it's impossible to jump into the water from the boat deck and and not see the blood

Yeah, well, you can't jump over that slab into the water you'd have to be some kind of super athlete and You would it would be really hard to leave a puddle of blood behind as you flew over it also Definitely hit it So the defense just portrays the death as a deck the deck as a death trap with a dangerously low railing, rotting wood and a slick mossy surface. Gross. God damn it.

They're going to bring up later on a retired engineering professor who's going to present a computer animated group of scenarios that could have happened. When they do this at trial, it is so ridiculous and funny. They shouldn't allow these computer mockups, by the way. That's, I think it's a, it's, it's prejudicial. It's fun to watch a cartoon of murder. It's so silly. It's so silly. But I think it's also prejudicial because you don't know. You can't just display a theory and now people are watching it and thinking it's real. It's that's that's I don't like that at all So anyway, he presented all these scenarios and the prosecutors dismissed this all as cartoons

Pray and Matt Stone cheese what's going on here? Yeah, they just killed Kenny. This is ridiculous So the prosecutors accused the defense of exaggerating about the deck saying it had been there for decades without anyone suffering a fatal fall. So probably isn't that bad. And they'd been there 10 times too, and she never fell off it before. So medical people here, pathologists called as witnesses

by both sides offer completely conflicting testimony to each other, which is tough for a jury. The person who performed the autopsy dr. Steven Cole Listed head injury as the cause of death, but said he couldn't rule out drowning The other doctor dr. Dragovic said the Oakland County medical examiner. He's another one here He said that this evidence such as fluid in Florence's lungs suggested she drowned So that's that certainly suggests that she was still alive when she went into the water, which she couldn't have done,

so therefore that's murder. That would be someone murdered her, that's the thing. This is not an accident, somebody did this, but who? Well, if you look at it logically, I doubt that Fred in the fucking motorboat came back and killed her for no reason, so there's one guy with any motives. I think that's the whole point here.

So now they argue about how Flo is portrayed in court. Apparently the prosecution was arguing that the defense counsel had painted Flo as a quote, shopping crazed adulteress. So they said that the defense counsel never argued that the victim was a shopping crazed adulteress. It was actually the prosecution that was their way of summing up what they were saying about her.

So the judge said you shouldn't to the defense you shouldn't be saying that shit and you shouldn't be saying shopping crazed adulteress because they never said that. It's all inflammatory. Yeah, now you're being the inflammatory ones to the person you're trying to keep nice. So doesn't work here. And there's people talking about fake tears of Mark. Donna Pendergrass, the prosecutor, started to build her case by asking witnesses there

that day to describe Mark's demeanor. And one person here, they said, so you indicated he had kind of he had kind of going between crying and being matter of fact and this guy said yeah I'd offer him Kleenexes and he'd take them but I never saw a tear that's no good why that's need that for not great and another woman who was there named Fran said he got noticeably upset sobbing very loudly, but I never noticed any tears. That's a problem.

Yeah. Tears come out of your head. Yeah. I don't like when they don't cry. No, whenever you see someone fake cry, you know, I mean, when they cry and no tears come out, that's not good. No, no, no, no, no, no. That is not good.

Tears are, it's a physiological thing that happens. You get watery, your nose runs, you get red. Like there's a bunch of stuff that happens. Just going, it's not crying. Yeah, your thoughts and such are what make you cry. And if you've got no thoughts and sadness, then you don't cry. You don't cry.

That's why when you watch a movie and an actor's crying and they have fucking snot coming out of their nose, you're like fucking A, you are killing that shit. That person's a psycho. Yeah. Standing there with one tear coming down their eye, you're like get the fuck out of here. Who put that gvizine drop in your eye for that shot?

Fuck off. Mix that with vodka and drink it. That ain't real, yeah. Murder martini for you. So, Lynn Duncan, one of the couple who owns the place, the husband here, they asked him, had you told or given the defendant any information whatsoever about where Florence's body was?

And he said, no, none. Just said, she's in the water. And he went a-runnin'. Now, the cross-examination of Lynn Duncan, the defense attorney says, and so after you spoke with Mark, he ran back exactly the way you had come, down to the front of the boathouse,

and he said yes, exactly, and they said exact path you had just traveled, and he said yes, and the defense was like, see, you must have seen him comin', that's what happened. Now Glenn Stark has to come up and testify. Oh, oh man, he is the dick in the ointment jar here. This is not good.

So they asked him, that's why he's putting his dick in there. Lube it up. So they, they asked him, the defense asked him, did you have sex in the younger home and Glenn said no And they said did you go somewhere else and have sex and he said yes And they said do you know where mark was at the time that you took his wife to have sex with her? And he said I do not that sounds terrible here obviously think about him Never even thought of just really was thinking about his wife sweet sweet pussy

That's all I was thinking about Don't make you forget she has a husband Jesus who's your best friend? No, it's on a side note here mark on Dateline later talking about the affair okay with Chris him and Chris Hansen talking about the affair. Okay, with him and Chris Hansen. Ah, this fucking... Poor Chris Hansen has to talk to every asshole. He busts perverts, but he's also a pervert. He's like, tell me more.

Tell me more, because I troll for very young women also. Oh man. So they said, he says to Mark, Glenn Stark, how do you describe him? And Mark says, my best friend was fucking my wife. How else do you describe him? That's how I describe him, the man who was betting my wife, which is a great answer.

Ah, Jesus Christ. How else do you describe him? That's how I describe him. Chris had that one locked and loaded and couldn't wait to spit it out. And then there's Chris says, did you? Chris had that one locked and loaded and couldn't wait to spit it out. Chris says, did you? And he jumps, Unger jumps back in and cuts him off.

Still has to having this thought. And he says, the guy who was patting me on the back saying you can get through this, you can do this. And he was sleeping with my wife. Patting my back with one hand, fingering my wife with the other. Patting her ass with the other. And they said, and did you know this before? And Unger said, oh, I had no idea, no idea.

Her best friends didn't know about the affair. You know, so what she's going, what? So what, she's going to all of a sudden tell me? No, Flo would have never done that. And I do believe Flo would have never told him. Just, just- It doesn't seem like it. Because it would fuck her divorce case up,

and that's what she was concentrating on. So another piece of evidence here the prosecution presents is a videotape. This is a reenaction of, a recreation of Mark's route down to the water. It goes to show that basically he could not have seen where Flo's body was, so he couldn't have run right to it

unless he knew where the fuck it was. Yeah, you gotta know. They're showing how dark it is out there and everything else and they're like, you can't see hundreds of yards away in the dark. You just can't. You know, the guy isn't a fucking human flashlight. So the last image on it was an inflatable female CPR dummy floating face down in the water.

So the defense was pissed off about that obviously. They're like, that's crazy. But the prosecution said, that's what we got here. Okay. Now, Chris Hanson said at one point asked the defense attorney later on, was there reasonable doubt in this case? And Bob Harrison, the defense attorney said there was so much reasonable doubt you could climb on it. What a weird way to put that.

It's a mountain. It's a mountain. He said you could walk on it. You could throw it. Well, if you could walk on it and climb on it, it sounds pretty heavy to throw, no? He said if this case didn't contain reasonable doubt, the concept does not exist.

Very definition. So the defense attorney in the defense painted a very different picture of what happened. He said Mark Loveflow had no reason to kill her. Her death was a horrible tragic accident. He said Mark just left his wife for a few minutes to be a good father and put his boys to bed. And during that time she tumbled off the deck. When Mark came back didn't see her.

He assumed she was at the neighbors and he went to bed They the defense lawyer said at the very beginning of this investigation a very very sad thing happened And that was they accused the wrong guy So he said also there keep saying she's afraid of the dark. She's afraid of the dark. No, she's not Bob said do you have any, asked one person, that's a relative, did you have any knowledge or awareness that Flo Unger had a fear of the dark? And this guy said, no, I was not aware of any.

And a friend of hers said, I don't know. So it wasn't a thing she talked about constantly, but they're acting like she wasn't that scared of the dark. Now, a cousin of Mark's testified that if Flo wasn't afraid of the dark, or if she was afraid of the dark. Now a cousin of Mark's testified that if Flo wasn't afraid of the dark, or if she was afraid of the dark, she never showed it at Watervale. Because they'd been up there with her before

and she walks around in the dark. So they asked, to your knowledge, was Florence Unger ever on the Boathouse deck at night when it was dark? And this person said, yes, she was all the time. That's what we did. So now why did Mark want to leave so quickly? The defense argues that marks mood swings while on the phone and packing the car to go home could all be explained as a natural

Reaction to shock and grief and is overwhelming concern for his two young sons Now people do act weird. No, there are no two reactions to tragedy that that are alike. There just isn't. So that's true. The defense lawyer said, didn't he say I just wanna take my boys? I just wanna take my boys and take them home. I wanna go home. And the deputy that was first on the scene said,

yes, he did say that. I mean, if I got, yeah. What else is he gonna say? I want my kids the fuck outta here. Yeah, but he can't say, I just wanna flee this murder scene that I committed I just want to flee the scene It's gotta get away. Yeah, I gotta get my DNA away from this one. Yeah, it was a distance between me and Now a defense attorney scored up some points for mark when he got the doctor who did the autopsy to admit that the medical evidence didn't necessarily point to murder But it's very semantic

Cuz like that evidence doesn't not everyone with those injuries was murdered It's not a gunshot wound through the head or a cut throat or a knife in the heart You could have you could have a car accident with those two injuries for that's the thing But that doesn't explain how the fuck did she get in the fucking water could have you could have a car accident with those two injuries that's the thing but that doesn't explain how the fuck did she get in the fucking water from the concrete that's what that doesn't explain but they're saying that medically that's not your job to explain that so you know that's how that goes so they said you don't know whether this woman's death was accidental or intentional and the doctor who did the

autopsy said I don't know for sure. That's correct. So then they attacked the credibility of a neuropathologist who had testimony as well that flow was pulled into the water Where she drowned and they said the defense said would it be fair to say that you like cases that generate a lot of publicity? And this doctor said no and they said you gravitate toward cases where you can get your name in the newspaper. And he said, no, I, and then they said, get your face before the cameras. Is that a fair statement, sir? And he said, no, sir. Every expert there is being paid to be there.

That's the ridiculous part. The cops get extra court pay to be there. You know what I'm saying? To testify. People who work for the state get court pay Which is extra to testify over time. Yeah, that's a special thing of court pay It's different and then you get that's a different rate and everything and then you get fucking You know, it's just silly. I don't like yeah expert witnesses. Of course, they're paid to death

What are they gonna come there for free? That's their job. I'm not doing this because I'm a Hero to society and this is I'm Robin Hood. I'm not doing this because I'm a hero to society and I'm Robin Hood, I just stick around to testify all day. I had to go to medical school, and this is what I'm doing here. Professional testimony provider. That's it, so anyway, I guess this neuropathologist

testified a few months earlier during a hearing that Flo was on the cement apron for only a few minutes, but at trial he said that she lay there unconscious for more than an hour and a half, which is very different. Yeah. So the defense said, now which is true, doctor? The evidence you gave in January or the evidence that you gave from that witness stand, both of them are under oath.

Which statement is true? He said both of them are true. Huh? How did they? Okay. He said both of them are true Huh? And they said both of them are true as a question and he said because of course That's the answer. Yeah I don't know what you're talking about And I've researched this a lot and I still don't know what the fuck that means

Yeah, but you can't so they were either he was she was there for a minute or an hour and a half and they're both true. I don't get I guess either could be true is what she of course. Yeah. Because of course. Because of course. And the attorney said of course are you just making this up as you go along doctor? And he said of course. He said no sir. They said there is a man on trial for murder here. Do you understand that sir? And he said, I perfectly understand that. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Then the defense team has its own dramatic exhibits here.

This is a mock up of the boat deck brought to court to show, they made a little fucking diorama, that's nice. To show what happened there was linked directly to the condition of the deck itself. And they also have this computer thing a guy named dr. Paul this computer graphics that demonstrate to the jury and this is you know 2006 too so it's way less than even now that looks like shit but then it looked terrible it shows how an accidental fall could have occurred and it probably looked like roly poly oly, I bet, like

if the victim lost her balance. However, this doctor admitted that he could not rule out the possibility that the victim was caught, the fall was caused by the criminal agency of another person. She could have been pushed, I didn't say she jumped. Moreover, the absence of palms down injuries on the victim's body provided evidence from which a rational jury could have concluded that the victim was already unconscious or otherwise incapacitated when she struck the concrete pavement. There's no arm injury where she tried to catch herself, hands, palms, elbow. When you fall, no matter what the...

You fall off a fucking building, you try to catch yourself. It's just human reaction. and none of that happened. So they're saying she had to have been unconscious when she made the fall Okay. Yeah, I could switch. There's nothing on her knees. Nothing on her elbows hands. Yeah Palms of the hands the heels of the hands. Yeah, those are our arms Oh, that was my my least favorite bicycle injury getting a rock stuck in there. Yeah. Yeah For so long. Oh, it hurts. So you don't realize how much you use that exact spot all the time Not just for getting rocks in anymore Yeah, so they said there was some wounds on the victim's hands and arms

But he testified that he didn't believe these injuries were sustained as a result of a palms down Yeah fall position. So the doctor did not believe that the hand and arm injuries were consistent with an attempt by the victim to brace herself upon impact with the concrete. Instead, the testimony regarded suggested that the possibility that the victims fall from the deck was not accidental.

Okay, so the railing. Experts testify the railing was almost a foot too short to meet Michigan building code and that flow could have lost her balance. Even the owners of the hotel admitted the deck wasn't in great shape. So that we could have we could have used to redo on that. So the defense attorney has Lynn Duncan up there and says in fact in your words the deck had gotten pretty ratty and They say there's a long pause and she says yes, or he says yes So ratty are and according to engineers rotting here Here's a David Ruby who's an engineer testifying for the defense Said and in the condition that the timber was in an accident was waiting to happen So it is the defense's team's final witness is Dr. Igor Paul,

who's a mechanical engineer from MIT, who produced several animations, which would show you in silly cartoon terms, how Flo could have toppled over and ended up in the water. That's his video show how she could have gotten from the concrete to the water, which is amazing. But did he make her Canadian? No, unfortunately.

Her head doesn't open like a... So he narrates the video, okay, and says, quote, when she bounces with her head and her shoulder, her pelvis is still above her, so that when she bounces, she actually gets propelled up in this frame, then she continues rolling because she has rolling energy. Okay. I am.

I've heard of big dick energy. I'm not a mechanical engineer and I didn't go to MIT. Yeah. But falling straight down and splatting doesn't make you then roll more. There's no hill here. She didn't go to MIT. Yeah. But falling straight down and splatting doesn't make you then roll more. There's no hill here. She didn't take a running start and fly off the thing

and land and fucking tumble. So that doesn't make any sense to me, anyway. As for the blood stain on the cement, he said, quote, when she hits right now, she will be hitting with the right side of her head above her ear, essentially, and the blood squirts out of her head above her ear essentially and the blood squirts out of her nose. So that's what happened.

Then she has rolling energy to get off the thing. Now in other videos he had several theories that were ridiculous. Another one that was really ridiculous was she fell, hit her head on the thing, then had seizures into the water. Oh boy. Even though with a broken skull and broken hip her body was jumping like a fish over there, broken pelvis, whatever, and got over the break thing and into the water. Yeah. And they're like, if I'm on the jury, even if I was was voting not guilty once I saw that I go. Oh, that's the alternative. That's ridiculous guilty Right you just showed every alternative and they're all stupid. So no, I don't buy any of this shit

I was gonna vote not guilty, but now I don't know so That's pretty crazy. And they also said obviously a weak railing is the cause of all these problems here now the closing arguments here is the cause of all of these problems here. Now, the closing arguments here, the prosecutor in the closing argument, it's a long one, by the way, she gave a three hour closing argument. What? That is a lot for a jury to take.

Two movies? Two movies worth of a closing argument. That is. God damn. A double feature closing argument. I get that our podcasts are sometimes that long, but you can like walk around, do some gardening, go out to the store, travel, drive. We're you can do. Yeah. This is in a chair. Is she talking about the town too? I guess.

Giving reviews of local restaurants talking about fucking Dan. What the hell's his name? Darren's bald fucking head. Darren's the bald bass player guy. He's just talking about. Darren's slapping the bass. I don't know, what the hell else you could talk about for three hours. But three hours, prosecutors will say,

and any attorney will say, you don't wanna sit a regular person who might not be interested in legal shit in a chair for three hours and make you listen to like a dry recitation of the case especially after like a nine-week trial which not a single joke huh no jokes no nothing you should have to have some jokes right if we did this without it would be miserable there's shows that do it and I don't understand

it at all I don't get how the hell they do it and I don't get how they get through it. I don't know how their audiences get through it. I don't know man. Without just going, this is fucking sad or this is fucking boring or this is something. We're trying to put a little, you know, nice little edge on this thing for you, you know, like a little bit. So three hours here she said, the unfortunate truth is that a human life has been ruthlessly and recklessly

obliterated Wow, and there will never be enough justice for that never Now the defense attorney here he went even longer He went longer than three hours How much longer I'm longer than that that is wild longer than three hours. How much longer? Longer than that. That is wild.

So he says, this is Bob Harrison in his closing, he came back and he kissed his sons again after just destroying their mother. Hannibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs couldn't even do that. It's outrageous to suggest that somebody could destroy the life of the mother of these children and act like that. It's outrageous and absurd and it's a lie.

Yeah, so the verdict here, four days and 25 hours of deliberation. What? Dude, they think less about whether to invade countries than fucking it takes less time to think about. This is crazy. Just a shade time more than that bitch ran her mouth for? Yeah. 25, that is sick. And the prize, yeah,

equaled about the closings of both, we'll say. 25 hours over four days. So what do you think's gonna happen here? Let's get opinions in. I mean, that's a long time to talk because there's no physical evidence. I really think that this man is getting off, man. You can't, you have no, all you have is he dove in

right where she was at. And I mean, clearly she didn't do this to herself. Somebody gave her a hand. But you can't say he did unless, it's tough. Unless 12 people think him diving in the water at their exact spot is enough. I don't know man It's funny cuz like if it was an hour of deliberations. I would go god. I don't know could go either way They could go no evidence not guilty or they could be like fuck that guy. He dove in the water guilty

I think this is more evidence than Scott Peterson had though Scott Peterson was DNA though. I still think that motherfucker's incredibly guilty. Of what? His DNA was in the ties and the boats and the shit that he. Oh, well, I mean, there's a hair, right? There was also other stuff there. Was there? Yeah, also there was maps that he was there

and all that shit, there was a lot more evidence. Scott Peterson. Five answers and he's on, okay. To say that there's no evidence against Scott Peterson, they haven't looked at the case closely. Because there is. That's a good PR campaign he's run for 25 years, but there's plenty.

Yes! It's true, I'm just being honest. You're not wrong. We did the bonus up, I saw the evidence. There's a space of a break of sunlight. My point is there's no pizza here. No, you're right. Yes, there's no pizza slice, you're absolutely right.

That's enough. That's to the Patreon. If I'm on that, if you were on that jury as the foreman and said I don't know you guys that beats I'd be like this motherfucker He's right like but like Scott Peterson, there's more obvious stuff like what Scott Peterson you go Okay, so you bought this boat that month but didn't tell your wife about it and there's you Started your affair that month you you looked at the tides and the flows of shit right where the body was before you, like all of that stuff equals a mountain

of circumstantial evidence. Like here, there is very little circumstantial evidence here other than he must've, cause no one else had the motive to do it, is not a real good case. Yeah, but I mean, he didn't, Scott didn't like call and say, go look in this part of the bay, a real good case. Yeah, but I mean, Scott didn't call and say, go look in this part of the bay,

because I think, you know what I mean, this guy dove where the body was right away. He dove where the body was, yeah. But if you looked at his computer, Scott knew exactly where the body was, because he mapped it and went there. That's the problem. Scott checked the tides to where the body is.

He checked those exact spot, which is real weird. And I don't know, whatever your opinion is is what it is but you can't have an opinion there's a fact he's convicted yeah shut up but and if you hear his sister-in-law tell you why he's innocent it makes it even more ridiculous because you know that's what you came up with in 25 years even guiltier but into school do this yeah some people think he's not guilty and that's fine but I think there was a lot more evidence in that case than there is here. Here, literally all they have is she couldn't have gotten

the water by herself and he's the only one with the motivation to do it. And I think all the people think he's guilty, I feel bad for their sex life because that's the only reason they think he's not guilty is because they wanna fuck him. Which is weird because he's a fucking goober. Because he'll kill you. And he's a super goober also. He'll kill you. And he's a super goober also.

He's a dork and he'll murder you. He does have a boat though. So you know, that's something. Unless it's impounded indefinitely. I think it is. So 25 hours of deliberation over four days. Oh boy. Guilty of first degree murder.

First degree. It's that dive man. You can't just go to the body. You can't do it They gots yeah, that's a really that's a tough one. I don't you can't do that You add that in with the fact that she had to have been placed in the water and you go Oh, if she go right there all he had to say was where yeah, this case doesn't there's no case no legs Yeah, no where right then you just go that guy He said we found her and he ran right to her. He was like golly

And he's not a homicide detective he's the guy who partially owns a fucking bed and breakfast an inn on a lake No experience this isn't fucking you know agatha christy here. This isn't murder she wrote. This is... That guy's main concern is the cost of fried fish. Crockett. What kind of hit will my bottom line take if I fix that falling apart boat deck? Right. Haven't sold enough Vandy camps to fix the dock.

That's it. Yep. How many more filets of fish do I have to sell to do that? And try to pretend and pass them off as today's catch of the dock. How many more filets of fish do I have to sell to do that? And try to pretend and pass them off as today's catch of the day. Oh my God. Now, by the way, Mark's mother sat through the entire trial and sold her house to pay for his defense. Sold her house, she has no house.

She's homeless, she's, I mean, she's staying with somebody, but she sold her house and just used all the money to pay for the defense. That's rough. It's a great mom, but holy shit. I mean, lawyers, they deserve money, but that's. Well think about how much work goes into nine weeks of trial, that is crazy, that's a crazy amount of work. You gotta feel like a piece of shit when you buy that BMW and go this is from an old yeah it would

have to be but yeah you it's not just that so you have to pay you know how many people they have working for the researchers all you have to pay all those people there's a lot of that come back when you go this was a late this I'm writing a check that cost a lady a bathroom yeah but I mean she also didn't have to fucking do that. That's true. She could have went, well I mean. It's not his fault, yeah.

Yeah, that's the only force to do. All money comes from somewhere. It all has to come from somewhere. So Mark's mother says, my son is innocent, he would never hurt anyone. And I think the world knows that, except for those people. No. Refers to the jury.

The only people that matter. The only 12 that matter and they come back with you, sir Yeah, they fuck off life without parole Yeah life well that's first-degree murder in Michigan is life without done mandatory so yeah Flo's mother speaks to reporters Claire here and, and she says, or they, I'm sorry, they ask her what was the first thing that went through your mind when you heard them say guilty, and she said, thank you God, justice is served. The defense attorney, Harrison, calls Mark's conviction a horrendous miscarriage of justice. Chris Hanson said, did you take this as a personal defeat?

And he said, you always do, you can't help it. You're in a war of sorts with the other side and it hurts. What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? Anyway, I'm gonna go BMW shopping, so I'll see you later. I got an old ladies house money burning a fucking hole in my pocket like you wouldn't believe. I gotta go. It's like a reverse mortgage, but I keep it all. But I keep all of it. So, you know, like a reverse mortgage. The comp, they end up with everything

and you get shit in no house too. So Hanson said, is an innocent man now in jail? And Harrison said, absolutely. Really? Innocent. Now the kids, what's going on with the kids? They have not seen him since May of 2004, right? It's the last time yeah. Yeah, they were not in the courtroom when the verdict was read

They weren't in the courtroom for any of this shit cuz their kids still they're like 12 and 8 or some 12 and 9 or some Shit, so that's a lot man. They said that this is his lawyer said This is going to be a setback again in terms of Mark's ability to get back with his sons. Obviously this conviction will make that impossible unless we are successful upon appeal because it's very easy to go well he can't have any kind of custody because he's a murderer so obviously duh he's in prison forever what's he going to do? So the conviction means that Unger's rights almost certainly will be terminated meaning parental rights even if he fights in court.

In many cases, however, people convicted of serious crimes voluntarily give up their rights to their children without a hearing, you know, because they can't do anything for him there. So it's crazy. One attorney appointed by the court to represent the Unger children said, being convicted of first degree murder, what would be the point? The prosecutor will likely amend the petition to include the conviction. So what the fuck are we talking about here?

The Oakland Chief Assistant Prosecutor, Deborah Carley, said that that's exactly what prosecutors will do, noting that Unger will be in prison for more than two years, which meets the statutory requirements for termination. If you won't be around your kids for two years and you're gonna abandon them basically. Now we get to hear, we get to go inside the jury room here

and hear from the jurors of exactly how they got to this, which is very fucking interesting. This is the shit that we need here. So good job, Chris Hanson, getting on this shit. So the jurors said this was brutal on them. 25 hours of deliberation, you gotta be, that's a lot of going back and forth. So Chris Hanson said this was not a smoking gun case,

there was no DNA evidence linking him to the crime, no fingerprints, no eyewitnesses. Did that make it hard for you? There's a bunch of jurors sitting there. And one guy says very, another one says yes, and the other says yes as well. Five people out of the twelve spoke with Dateline One's a waitress one's the owner of a construction company a nurse a pharmacy technician and a factory worker

So that really is a pretty you know pretty diverse cross-section of you of the world there on the first day of deliberations They took a vote Wunder Tina said quote I was undecided. And Hanson said, and what Tina was it that gave you doubt at this point? And what, Tina, may I ask? May I ask? Throw Tina in. Gave you doubt.

And what, Tina? Yeah. I love that. Tina said, it wasn't so much about doubt. It wasn't so much doubt as I just was not ready to commit to anything I really wanted to go through all of my notes. I wanted to consider everything which is fair Let's go back to that anyway Lucy another juror said we gave mark 110% we really did

Chris Hansen said he's told that flow is essentially in the water, but apparently not exactly where, yet he's able to go directly to the location of the body. Was that suspicious? And James, one juror, James said very. They also thought it was very suspicious. His mood swings on the phone that day were suspicious also.

They were like, that's just weird. Yeah, sure, no tears. Where he switches over and he's sobbing with one person then switches over and he's like, yeah, so anyway. It's almost like he's got a range of emotions he knows he has to go through and he's gotta start over when he calls the next person. He can't be hysterical

because that's the end of this movie. I can't start, I can't Tarantino this phone call. You gotta build it, that's the problem. the that's the end of this movie I guess yeah, you build you know this phone call. You got to build it. That's the problem Yeah, you got a bill story. You got a bill to fucking tears here Well, although you start out with tears people like oh god, what's wrong? And now you're right in the middle of it now you're into something So I can't do that because that's not this is art at the end of the day. I'm building it I'm building something an award trying to build something here ward seasons coming up I got the suit picked out I could do it

So they said also the fact that he started packing the car to leave and the fact that he didn't pull flow out of the lake Yeah, he said he's up and then dropped her then Gross yeah, he went gross and dropped her like no that it doesn't matter if your wife's bleeding you take her out of the fucking water I wouldn't even think about that. No, I'd be like, oh, I don't know if she's heavy cuz the water would I be like Help me out do whatever I'm dragging her to the fucking shore and she's getting out of the water I'm not gonna leave her floating in a fucking lake. What if she floats away now what so I'm not doing that So they said Hanson said did it bother you that he left the body in the water? One of the jurors david said it did if it was my wife laying there i'd be doing everything I could to get her out

Logic they also believed the theme that the prosecution had They said so you believe the fact that she was afraid of the dark and they all nodded. Yes They do because I guess it was a major thing theme with her that she told everybody about One jurors said and I think someone who's not even afraid of the dark wouldn't logically stay out there in the dark It's just it's really dark It's like even if you don't aren't afraid of it. You can't see anything It's just dark man after a while, you know, it just gets dark. So another juror said it doesn't just doesn't add up I don't understand why she wouldn't go with him to put the kids to bed You know, it just gets dark. So another juror said, it doesn't just doesn't add up.

I don't understand why she wouldn't go with him to put the kids to bed. That doesn't make sense. So they think he did that beforehand, went back to set an alibi with his kids and then came back. And to say, oh no, where is she? Have you seen her? No, okay.

So they said, Chris Hansen said here, they also said the most convincing was the testimony about her brain injuries. That was the most convincing, that she couldn't have gotten into the water on her own. She's already super, super messed up. Super fucking, just, yeah, mangled. So Chris Hansen said, was there one star witness in your mind? One person who really sewed it up for you? I really love to know this. One juror said, Dr. McKeever, for me, he had proof, concrete proof,

that she was alive for some period of time before she was in the water. They were showing him charts of brain activities and this is how long these things take and all that. Once the jurors accepted that Flo had been alive on the pavement for an hour and a half, they said, at that point, these computer animations from the defense didn't make any fucking sense at all.

Right. In their mind, she laid there for an hour and a half. So if she laid there for an hour and a half, someone would definitely have to throw her in the water because it's not like she was getting better. She wasn't healing. Right, she's not healing. Right.

Where she can then throw herself in the water. Yeah. So the one juror said the animated picture showed that Hitting the ground rolled over several times had a seizure and drowned many things instantly Yeah, and there was just too hard to believe and then the Lucy the jury juror said bodies don't bounce I don't care what they say on cement They don't even even the ones on 9-eleven didn't bounce No, you could jump from I was gonna say they could jump from the top of a fucking tall building

It doesn't you don't bounce you just don't pass you well and the concrete will give a little bit too. There's enough impact Yeah, it'll fuck. Yeah. Well, yeah the concrete will and the and the point is your body is not it's not rubber It's just shit comes apart You can bounce it like 30 miles an hour if you're at a 45 degree angle Yeah, but straight the fuck down you don't bounce No Even remember the guy this happened Christ 15 years ago on the X Games the guy went up the halfpipe did some crazy shit Fell down on the halfpipe, which is plywood. That's meant to be bouncy by the way

He fell down hit splat and his shoes came off because the energy had to go somewhere. It was hilarious. But he didn't bounce. He swatted. That's the word that they always say. They crumple into a heap because that's what your body just naturally does. And that is like, has a little bit of give, the plywood on a half pipe and shit. It's not concrete, which has no give.

Concrete has no chill whatsoever. As you hit it, you're fucked. It's as chilled as it gets. Yeah, so yeah, they said that. And Chris Hansen said, "'If Flo's body had been found on the cement "'and not in the water, "'do you think he would have gone

"'with this being an accident? And the one juror said, yes. Have to. And the other juror said, I believe so, yes. So all you had to do was not put her in the water. Yeah. You know what I think? What I'm leaning at this point is that like,

she probably hit that ground and was out and made no noise. And whoever did it, I'll just be nice walked away and then An hour and a half or so maybe heard the that death gurgle is so yeah It absolutely were like oh my god, somebody's gonna hear this and you know water. Yeah, that's what he might have went He might have because he's not a fucking doctor. He doesn't know what's wrong with her So whoever did it might have or whoever did it quote unquote might have said oh shit. She's still alive Yeah, I gotta kill her even though she's gonna be dead sitting here. She's never she's gonna regain consciousness, but he doesn't know that And go you pushed me down yes

Yeah, she's not gonna point in Bruce Willis' face and tell him how fucked up he is. So the one juror, James, said, I didn't want to make eye contact with the defense, the prosecution, their families. I knew it was gonna be hard. Or he said, we knew it was gonna be hard. So Mark's reaction to the verdict, we need to know also here.

Chris Hanson said, how did you feel as the deliberations went on, day one, day two, day three? Mark says, I was, it was just hard enough to get through those days. Was I anticipating not guilty? Yes. Was I optimistic about being home that weekend? Absolutely.

He's like, I'm gonna be home, I'm gonna be eating McDonald's by fucking- He's asking himself questions and answering for you. That's okay, yes, thanks. Chris is like, well thank you, I can put my notes down. So glad I didn't prepare for this or anything. So he says, Chris Hanson says, how does a guy who's married, two great kids,

living in one of the most desirable suburbs of Detroit end up in your situation? How'd you fuck this up, Mark? You had it all, What'd you do? What'd you do? Are oxys that good? They must be. Mark Unger said, quote, I wish I knew.

It was a shock, a surprise, every step of the way. Okay. Really? Wow, that is... Wow. I don't know what to say about that. He did three of the most addictive things and he was doing them all together. That, that's what- Ruined his life,

knew he was gonna lose it. Start there. Yeah. And then the marriage was falling apart because I was doing dumb shit and she was having an affair because I was ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba. And then I went to rehab to fix all of it

and when I got out, that wasn't enough and I'm gonna lose everything. What's the logical answer for a desperate man you know and then keep it together and then Chris Hanson would go so you did do this then right you just told me why you did this exactly so but Hanson said did you kill your wife Flo his answer I would never ever hurt Flo oh that's the worst answer you could give. So bad. The answer is no, I didn't kill her. I would never. I would never. He didn't say no. Any. He minimized. He didn't say kill. He said hurt. Which could be you kicked her in the shin. Different. Hanson said, did you kill her?

I didn't ask you to fucking, did you give her a splinter? I asked you, did you pinch her? I asked you to kill her. And what does he say made it even worse quote? I would never do anything to hurt her Gave you a chance to stop the minimizing gave you a chance to say fuck. No, I didn't kill her my answer fuck No, I didn't kill her. Get me out of here Chris Chris. What the fuck help me, bro Yo, you're on like NBC fucking Fucking tell people. This is crazy. I'm fucking stuck in here.

You'll get those 12 people that made the wrong decision. Tell them. I don't fucking know. Chris, do you have a house you can sell to help me with this? Cause somebody needs to help me. This is fucking crazy.

Is your mom my chance? I didn't kill anybody. Do you want me to stay over there? Please, mom, are you there? Do you know my mom, Chris Hanson? Please help me. You would, so. Does your very young girlfriend

that probably still lives with her parents have an extra room? Yeah, please. So the Unger boys end up going with Flo's parents who are going to adopt them legally. Mark's mother is suing them for more visitation, which she should have visitation. She's a grandma. She didn't kill anybody. Um, Mark said he's heartbroken that the boys have to grow up without him. Hanson said, what are you gonna say to them to explain what has happened here?

Oh boy. Mark said, just not having contact with them and saying, you will be able to. That gives me so much hope, I can't even tell you. And I know my boys and they know and they know that I would never hurt their mother. Yeah. Again, not kill hurt, hurt, hurt, hurt, hurt.

So 2006 same year right after the trial, he is sued by his sons here. Really? This is this is just like a legal. Have to on their behalf. Yeah, this is a legal have to to get money that they have rightfully coming Yeah, this is like I remember you remember a story years ago where they kept calling this woman the worst aunt in the world Because she has like a nine-year-old nephew who like jumped into her arms because she was so excited to see her and fucked Up her neck really bad to where she couldn't work anymore. She was all destroyed and she sued

neck really bad to where she couldn't work anymore and she was all destroyed. And she sued? She had, yeah, she had, she sued not the people, she sued the homeowners insurance to be able to get the hospital bills paid for with total acceptance of the family too. They got it, it was an accident and yeah, this is the way we can pay it. But the news just took it as an aunt is suing her nine year old nephew just for being excited. They literally would call her the worst aunt ever was the Chiron over at all times. James, they call her the worst aunt ever.

They also call her aunt from hell. Yeah. What? Yeah. Antichrist, James. Yep. There's an old John Oliver episode where they're showing the clips, and there's one where they're describing literally

that she had no choice and this was just the thing, but the Chiron still says worst ant ever on the bottom. It's like, it's crazy. So that's what she's known as. So that she can get medical stuff to pay for her back. That's all it was. And they were totally understood. It was, so they didn't have to pay for it.

They were happy to. So he's sued by his sons and this is, he didn't contest the lawsuit. This was on purpose and was ordered to pay the money into a fund set up for the couple's children. He's ordered to pay $10 million. Holy. Which he does not have obviously, but that's the order. So that's anything. Yeah. Yeah.

The figure was based on Florence Unger's projected lifetime earnings as a bank loan officer plus the personal loss to her survivors as well. So you add all that in and you get this. So the lawyers for the sons still plan to seek $250,000 in life insurance. Mark Unger's mortgaged and vacant home in Detroit and about $80,000 in property that belonged to the couple. So the grandparents are trying to get this to put in a trust for them essentially is how this works. So obviously there's gonna be some appeals

going on here, clearly. Tend to, yeah. You think so. So Mark's lawyers argue the cause of his wife's death was not made clear at the original trial. That's one of the appeal points here. In light of the district courts, they say, this is them, in light of the district court's incorrect conclusion regarding the admissibility of Dr. Dragovich's expert testimony, he's the guy

who said she drowned, we cannot conclude that this, he's the guy who said, because of course, that's that guy. Because of course. We cannot conclude that the circuit court abused its discretion by holding a newer supplemental evidentiary hearing on the admissibility of Dr. Dragovich's expert opinions concerning the cause of Florence Unger's death. Nor did the Circuit Court err by admitting Dr. Dragovich's expert testimony at trial. Even a cursory review of the Michigan Appeals reports reveal that Dr. Dragovich has been qualified as an expert witness in the fields of neuropathology and forensic

pathology many times in the courts of the state. Moreover, the evidence presented at meaning his opinion whether you like it or not is an expert opinion. Moreover, the evidence presented at the Daubert hearing in Circuit Court made it clear that Dr. Dragovich's testimony was based on established methods in the field of neuropathology and forensic pathology and that the doctor applied these methods reliably to the facts of the present case. Although Dr. Dragovich did not perform the autopsy in the case, he testified that he frequently consults and offers expert opinions with respect to cases in which he did not personally autopsy the victim. And that is completely common.

That's, when you ask people for second opinions, who are you gonna ask? The guy at 7-Eleven? You ask another medical examiner, what do you think of this? And you send them the files. And they don't have to, they take pictures and files. You don't have to have your hands physically in the body

to see the autopsy, you know what I mean? It's all covered. So they said that he based his opinions in the present case on the autopsy, you know what I mean? It's all covered. So they said that he based his opinions in the present case on the autopsy protocol, the autopsy photographs, various microscope slides, and numerous anatomical specimens that were sent for his examination. On the basis of all this evidence and his expertise

as a board certified neuropathologist, which, you know, we know, me and you know how hard that is. How long did it take us to get? It's crazy, yeah. It took us so long to get board certified in that. It's wild. They said that the doctor concluded that the victim's head injuries could not have caused sufficient brain swelling to result in neuro neurogenic pulmonary edema and that the victim

therefore must have died as a result of intervening mechanism of drowning. We note that the doctor's inability to specifically identify any medical or scientific literature to support his conclusions in this case does not necessarily imply that his opinions were unreliable or based on junk science. Indeed, it is obvious that not every particular factual circumstance can be the subject of peer-reviewed

writing. So they said it's just there is nobody has talked about this before. That's why there's no like something to cite. So that's what they're saying. They said there's there are necessary novel cases that raise unique facts that have not been previously discussed in the body of medical texts and journals. Makes perfect sense. What if something new comes up? It's not talked about. Nor was Dr. Dragovich's testimony rendered inadmissible merely because certain experts disagreed with it. That's why you have experts, they disagree with each other.

We readily acknowledge that there was disagreement among the expert witnesses concerning the cause of death, but the circuit court correctly observed defense counsel can cross-examine Dr. Dragovich and they can impeach him and the jury can believe him or not. Sure, sure. They said when there is conflicting opinions on expert witnesses, the law says it is solely

for the jury to determine which expert is more credible. They don't have like expert and better expert as a classification. I mean expert. Once you're an expert, everybody's the same and the jury decides who to believe. That's it. It's amazing that they give 12 regular people the ability to believe or disbelieve scientists.

They know nothing about this, it's wild. Yeah, but in the West Memphis Three shit, they brought a guy that was a scientist, and then that's the job of the other side, is to attack the credibility of this person, but when you bring somebody in as a scientist that got a mail-order degree, that's fucked up man. That's fucked up How'd you like to be in prison forever because of that? Cuz the guy wrote a letter somewhere and they said sure the correspondence course

Jesus also lack of evidence. Yeah They argue there's insufficient evidence presented at trial to support the conviction of first-degree premeditated murder. They say both the doctors here concluded that the manner of the death was homicide. Both doctors excluded the possibility of accidental death because neither believed the victim's body could have gotten into the water of the lake absent the purposeful actions of a second person. There's also substantial evidence to suggest that he had motive to kill the victim,

although motive is not an essential element, it's evidence of a motive in prosecution. Murder is always relevant. And they said, the prosecutor even said, you can say, let's put it on the fucking railing. They said, let's say she's out there, leaning on a railing and the railing breaks because it's so rickety She falls and she's there then what? Someone still had to pick her up somebody still moved that body

Alive alive and crumpled and bloody right and put it in the water So they're like why would you put it in the water? When when that person's still alive because the logical person says I've got to get this person help You would holy shit call 9-1-1 Nobody says scream. No, hey help help. Nobody Tony soprano pinches Chris's nose No, you don't throw them in the water. You don't do that So that's the and here's something that I have that I'm thinking about too.

If there's blood from that kind of head injury, there's a bunch of blood. So him throwing her into the water, or whoever threw her into the water should have blood somewhere on him, I would imagine. Sure, yeah. Had to get somewhere on him. Somewhere, yeah.

I hear nothing, not, I hear paint smear on the shoes, but I heard nothing about a shirt with a blood stain on it. Now we don't know if he was wearing the same shirt before or after, I'd like to know, I'd like to know if he was wearing the same shirt at dinner that he was wearing when, you know what I mean? Cause that's the only time, he could have easily come

to the room, change in a more comfortable shirt and went out there and that would ruin that. And then you'd never know when the shirt came on, but, and then if he did do it, and he got blood on his shirt, where's the fucking shirt? Yeah, what happened? Where's that? It's gotta be so, is it on the lake? Throw it in the fire pit?

Yeah, right. Is it at the bottom of the lake? Did he tie it around a rock? He could've tied it around a rock and throw, I don't know. You can't lift, somebody would have to lift under the shoulders, and with a bloody ass head like that, you're it on you on your pants on your shoes something so four arms on your floor Well that you can wash off in the water I would figure but on your shirt you can't that'll stay there. That's gonna stick

So I'm just wondering about that that to me. I'm like well where how did that happen exactly? Where did that I'd like to know that? So they said there was a lot of system, the motive obviously. They said the victim filed for divorce, the addition of the marital assets, all that kind of shit. The proofs also showed that the defendant had threatened to take sole custody of the children and to take the marital home if the divorce proceeded.

Also, the defendant had the opportunity to kill the victim. Evidence of opportunity is logically relevant in a prosecution for murder. The evidence presented at trial established the defendant had the opportunity to kill the victim. Evidence of opportunity is logically relevant in a prosecution for murder. The evidence presented at trial established the defendant and the victim were alone on the boathouse deck on the night of the victim's death. So opportunities are yet all the opportunity in the world. Even the defendant himself admitted to the police that he was probably the last person to see her alive. There's also evidence of a scuffle or struggle that may have taken place on the boathouse deck shortly before the death. The proofs established

that the railing surrounding the deck had been damaged sometime on the day of the death. Lynn Duncan had been on the deck the day before and the railing had not been broken at that time, so it must have happened that day. However, the railing was damaged and broken at the time the victim's body was discovered. It is possible the damage could have resulted from the victim accidentally falling or tripping over the railing. However, taken together with the white paint smear on the defendant's shoe, which that's a rough one too.

That's not, that's chemically similar also. That's not, that's not DNA. That's the same as saying these fibers are, you know, microscopically similar or these hairs are microscopically similar. Doesn't mean anything. It just means they're similar. Can't count it out, basically. It's equally likely that the damage to the railing

was evidence of a struggle on the deck between the defendant and victim. I don't, that's kind of crazy. That's a stretch for me. Moreover, there was evidence that the victim sustained internal abdominal injuries before her death as well, which they don't think are from the fall. Oh?

Yeah, they said that the internal abdominal injuries were more likely caused by impact with a blunt protruding object, you know, like a fist or a foot, rather than impact with concrete pavement that's flat. Okay, so she got her ass kicked and then thrown into the concrete. That's what we're thinking. And they think she might've, that's why they think too, she might've been unconscious when she hit the ground

because there's no. That's why she hit like that. Yeah, so somebody, they're saying somebody beat the shit out of her and tossed her over. And he might, and that's the other thing too, he might've thought he could toss her into the water from there.

Right, and then landing on the concrete and then there's no movement and he's like, oh shit, who cares, that's that. And then for an hour and a half, she's laying there and probably started to come to. Or, no, she's never gonna come to, she had a broken skull in like eight places, she was done.

But no movement or motion or talking or anything? No, no, no, no, her brain was on strictly like mechanical functions, it had no, she's never gonna regain consciousness with that brain injury, no, she was fucking dead. But I mean, you don't think that there was any moaning or anything, or gurgling or anything? It could have been gurgling, that's just breathing.

That's possible, sure, the shallow breaths and the gurgling, yeah, but she wasn't, she couldn't consciously say or do or move or do anything. She was just, scream, help me, help me. No, and maybe that's the other thing, he tossed her down and maybe he thought somebody would find her I don't know. I don't fucking know so they said

I'm right with he expected her to go in the water, and then he was like oh my god It's so hard to throw a body. Yeah, you throw she just fell Yeah, you can't toss that as strong as I thought yeah, it's not skipping stones for Christ's sake. It's an adult woman. You know He's like I used to be able to toss a woman farther than this this is crazy. Hip tossing was so much easier in my 20s. So much. So they said even if the jury believed the testimony of these doctors equally there's still sufficient evidence of deliberation and premeditation. Assuming the defendant did move the victim's body into the lake an inference clearly supported by both doctors testimony the logical inference arises that the defendant was motivated to move the victim precisely

because he perceived she was still alive and wished to prevent her possible recovery. Like I said, she didn't know. He didn't know if she was going to come to out of nowhere and start talking shit. They said given the otherwise unexplained relocation of the victim's body into the lake, a rational jury could have reasonably inferred that the defendant moved the victim's body into the water and that the victim was still alive. See, I think you can definitely say

that she was moved into the water, but I don't know if you can say 100% that he's the one who did it. That's a hard thing. That's- You've got no evidence that he did it. Except for the dive right where the fucking body is. That's it.

That's the one. That's the one. So he also says he was not given He was denied due process when the trial court failed to give individual limiting instructions Concerning the testimony of seven different witnesses all of whom testified that the victim had been upset and concerned about his drug and gambling addictions So they said after the first of these witnesses testified the defense counsel requested a limiting instruction regarding the use of the testimony. The trial court gave the following instruction.

Members of the jury, you have just heard testimony that Florence Unger was unhappy in her marriage, having marital problems, and she was unhappy with respect to the defendant, Mark Unger's purported drug and gambling problems. This testimony is not admissible to establish that Mark Unger was addicted to drugs or gambling It is admissible only to show Florence Unger state of mind and that there was marital discord He said you may consider this testimony only for the list limited purpose That is her unhappiness in the marriage relationship and intent to divorce Mark Unger, but she can't separate that in your brain Let's be honest here. They said with report respect to the defendants purported addictive problems

There are admissible those are admissible not to establish She was in fact addicted but only to form the basis of the victims mind for the marital discord so Anyway, they said we're gonna hear from witnesses with respect to the statements that Florence made and the same instruction will be applicable to their testimony Here's another thing. They said they were mean to the statements that Florence made and the same instruction will be applicable to their testimony. Here's another thing they said. They were mean to the defense. Or mean to us. Oh, was that right?

Mean. Yeah, they said they were impermissibly denigrated the defense counsel. Uh-huh. Defendant specifically challenges several arguments made by the prosecution during closing arguments, including that they said the defense counsel had re-victimized Florence Unger

during the course of the trial, that the defense counsel had re-victimized Florence Unger during the course of the trial, that the defense counsel had quote, bought Dr. Paul's testimony by paying him a substantial amount of money. That is prosecutor 101. Any defense witness they say, I mean, and he's being paid to be here, obviously, which is stupid. They said the defense had improperly cross-examined doctors Cole and McKeever and had attempted to mislead the jury by way of tortured questioning and deliberately loaded questions, and that the defense counsel had attempted to mislead and fool the jury by using quote,

red herrings and smoke and mirrors, that the prosecutor said all that about them. And then there's the bodies don't bounce. Right. Defendant lastly contests that the prosecution argued facts not in evidence when it stated during rebuttal that quote bodies don't bounce. That that fact is that's again like saying gravity is not in evidence. So we can't say that we thought that if I drop something it would fall on the ground. And you know there's a lot of people

that will disagree with that because they've seen a friend fall and bounce off the pavement. But when you fall from, you know, your height. A bike, a moving car. You can bounce like that because you've got forward momentum, but like a crumpled body that's out, when it hits, it doesn't bounce. Hits head first on concrete?

There's no, it doesn't spring out like Don Beebe when he fucking, the Bill's Ride was here, that that highlight? That's because there's a helmet there. That helped that. That's why he bounced. Cause he went, he the little cage thing in the helmet like shot him's body back up. Yeah. So anyway, they go on to say that Paul testified under certain conditions, such a fall from 12 feet onto a concrete surface, bodies can bounce. However, doctors Cole and Dragovic testified that they did not believe the victim's body could have bounced, rolled or otherwise moved into the lake in its own volition.

So they said accordingly, we cannot conclude the prosecution act argued facts, not in evidence. Moreover, even if this comment had been improper, any prejudicial effect could have been dispelled by a timely objection and a curative instruction. And also, they said that they shouldn't have been so mean to their doctors' video shit, the defenses' video shit. But it was a sweet cartoon, you guys. Could have been called a Poxar Short. It looked great.

Pretty fucking badass. They said that because the computer animation showed the victim moving into the water by way of seizures or convulsions were based on conjecture and were inconsistent with the medical facts and evidence. They were technically irrelevant to the genuine issues of this case. The trial court did not abuse its discretion

by excluding some of the videos from the jury's consideration. Altogether denied and affirmed. Yeah, this is a firm. And the bounce that they're saying is like, not like, I mean- Ridiculous. You can hit the ground in bounce that they're saying is like, not like, I mean. Ridiculous. You can hit the ground in just, I mean,

a couple, you know what I mean? Just the motion of coming back up a little bit. Hit on your side and fall over. Yeah, but you're not gonna bounce like a fucking rubber ball and bounce six feet over a concrete embankment wall. Yeah, that's three feet away, and you'd have to bounce not just straight up in the air. You'd have to bounce forward Yeah, you know momentum crazy. You'd have to be shot out of a cannon to have that

Physically, it doesn't happen if you were shot out of a cannon. Yeah, maybe yeah You know cuz you momentum you have a lot You have a lot of force behind you forward and you'd hit and roll maybe at that point but straight down. This is crazy So 2018 he appeals again he's been appealing all the way and in this appeal he claims his rights were violated because his trial lawyer who now he labels as ineffective before he was a heavyweight hard-hitting trial lawyer with a hundred murder cases ineffective fuck stole my parents house yeah he stole my parents house you Yeah, he stole my parents house. You can't say a guy has done 100 murder trials is ineffective. Right. That guy's done a lot. It's tough. Yeah, they said he did not object when the prosecutor made provocative comments in the

courtroom. A federal appeals court rejected his claim, calling the evidence against him overwhelming. And he lost his appeal. That meant that that was likely his last attempt to get a new trial in 2018. 2019, taking it to the streets, actually not to the streets, to the Supreme Court, the opposite of the streets. Michael McDonald, get after it. Here we go.

The court here, the Unger argued that his rights were violated due to ineffective assistance of counsel. Same shit, Federal Appe court had rejected it. Overwhelming evidence. And the Supreme Court agrees with that overwhelming evidence and tells him to keep on keeping on and get fucked. So unless there's some remarkable new evidence, he is in prison for fucking ever. Unless like somebody comes forward and says, I killed her.

Here's the shirt I was wearing and all that. Unless that happens, he's done. It's over. Because the fact that there's so little evidence means there's very little evidence that can come to dispute too. So it works both ways here. Now he is serving his life sentence

at the Chippewa Correctional Facility. In upper, it seems in the UP up there. So he is for a reason. Chippewa is up there huh apparently Chippewa Correctional Facility in Kin oh god Kin Kelo oh Jesus nope CI kinch Kinchel Oh Kinchel Oh King Kelo K K I N C H E L O E K-I-N-C-H-E-L-O-E. Concello, Concello. Concello, Concello, Conclo, I don't know what the fuck it is. Concloy?

Concloy, that's what I thought. It was so hard for me to not say Concloy. That's why I was trying to get it out. I couldn't. It was Kardashian. I just wanted to say that so much. Especially as watching a murder trial where someone was named Cloy recently.

I was like, oh, Christ, it's stuck in my head. Now, here is somebody, by the way, in crime and sports, we always do a fucking mistaken identities thing. Someone with the same name. It's worse than small town murder. Because at least an athlete, you know that that's probably not really Mike Tyson,

who is a CPA in Columbus, Ohio. That's probably not that one. But this, you never know with shit like this. There is an attorney in California named Mark Steven Unger. Exact same shit. It is not him, everybody. Just so you know, it's certainly not him. His license status is active right now,

so it's definitely not him. Don't look. He's the bar in California or Michigan. Give that guy a break is what I'm saying. Don't like Google him and go, oh, he has the same name as a murderer murderer and then not use it. That's fucked up He had no way of knowing that you know he's worked hard probably baby. He could be a terrible lawyer I'll give you rises for this. Yeah, so many old ladies as I think he is like a finance guy because the website is

Something fiduciary partners so that means means he's- That sounds like money. Yeah, he's not doing legal shit anyway. So, or like, you know, criminal shit is what I meant to say. So there you go, everybody. There's Arcadia Township, Michigan and Huntington Woods to an extent and a weird case. Yeah. So let us know what you think.

This is one of those right, sometimes there's two of us sitting here. So our brains can only go a certain amount. That's true, if you know more than I do, Christ. Well if you have hundreds of thousands of listeners like we do, a lot of times they'll end up coming up with something that we didn't think of because there's a lot of different brains out there. So if you have anything, any thoughts on this at all, please let us know, talk about it,

talk about it on the page, talk about it wherever the fuck we send us messages, I don't care because I'm interested in this shit. So very very interesting Do that and also head over to shut up and give me murder calm get your tickets for live shows while you're doing that Yeah, yeah, do that also get your put review the show whatever app you're listening on throw a review Five stars doesn't matter what you say. Just say James and Jimmy would be bad at bouncing on concrete. That's fine. We'll know what you mean They don't know shit about bouncing these guys. I'll show them how to bounce. That's fine It pounds with me bounce. So there's that yes shut up and give me murder.com tickets for live shows including the virtual live show You're not in one of the cities. We're going to we go to like 12 places. You could not be there

We got other shit. We got this, the 420 Virtual Live Show taking place on Saturday, April 19th. It's available for two weeks after that to purchase, to watch 100 times, to do whatever you want with also. Just like a regular live show, except you are in your living room,

on your porch, doing wherever the hell you have internet and feel like watching us. And we're gonna have costumes on, and we're going to also, uh, smoke a shitload of weed out of weird contraptions that will scare the hell out of Jimmy at inter intermittent times during the show. So that'll be a lot of fun and get your tickets for regular live shows as well. Chicago in May, you are on deck, baby. Get those tickets sold out.

Chicago St. Louis, you're doing great. You did it. Don't do you want to be, do you want to those tickets sold out. Chicago, St. Louis, you're doing great. You did it. Don't do you want to be, do you want to like not sell out Chicago and have St. Louis be like, we're better than you. You don't want that. Do you? Jesus Christ.

The Cardinals already have like 20 World Series and you have like three. You don't want it to be worse. Do you? No. So don't let it be worse. You have, you have a basketball team. They don't even have one. All right. Do that. Get the tickets.

Also for the rest of the year too, a lot of them are selling out. San Diego, Madison, there's a couple others too are selling out. So even if you wanna go at the end of the year and you're like, I got plenty of time, you really don't. Get your tickets right now.

So get in there. Shut up and give me murder.com. You can also definitely follow us on social media. We are at Small Town Murder on Instagram. We are at small town murder on Instagram We are at small town pot on Facebook and you can certainly get our patreon patreon.com crime in sports It's where you get all the bonus material and anybody if you're five dollars a month or above first of all You'll be shocked at how many bonus episodes you're gonna get immediately upon subscription.

It's hundreds, we've been doing these for years. So it is hundreds and hundreds of bonus episodes. Then, so a huge binge thing, then you're gonna get new ones every other week and we keep stacking them. We're gonna get one crime and sports, one small town murder, and anybody five bucks a month or above.

Just take it all. Just take it all! Yes. We don't even want it, just take it all. Just take it all! Yes. We don't even want it, just take it. It's all for you. It's all for you. This week, which we're gonna do for Crime and Sports, we're gonna talk about, this is very interesting,

the 2012 Miami Dolphins bullying scandal. Because you think these are giant football players and stuff, who's bullying anybody and then. They can take it. Even that or. They bully each other all day. Or it's like, yeah, everyone gets bullied at work or whatever the fuck it is. I don't know. So whatever your opinion is on it,

there's some stuff that's come out recently where people's opinions on it at the time, some of the people who are involved have now changed their opinions. So it's very interesting. And then for small town murder, one of the craziest things ever, the Amazon review killer who was like a serial killer who kidnapped these couples and killed them and did all this awful shit he held women as hostages and did terrible things to them till he got tired of them and killed him and he

would take all of the implements of his crimes buy them on Amazon and then review them honestly on Amazon telling how good or bad they were at killing people or holding hostages or whatever. People would laugh and say it was hilarious. I found that helpful and it's like, no! Talk about that and more. Patreon.com slash crime in sports, but we wanna say thank you right now to everybody who has been a patron.

Jimmy, hit me with the names of the people who would never ever ever throw us into a lake to drown while our brain quietly seeps out of our nose. Hit me with them right fucking now. This week's executive producer, Christopher Bottomley, Gary Howard, Jessica Bocchese, I think it's Bocchese. You look like an Italian. Bocchese.

Bocchese. It's today. I'll see you in a bit. I'll have the rigatoni Bocchese. Bocchese, please. I hear it's good tonight. Cody'll see you in a pie. You put something. I'll have the rigatoni boucherne. Boucherne, please. I hear it's good tonight. Cody Levercy in Detroit.

You're the best, Cody. Shelly Roberts. Larry Butterfast. You're terrific, too. And they're in Orange County. Julia Hayes, I think he's in Orange County. Is he in California, too? I think so.

I think he is. Yeah, yeah, he drove all the way there to see us in Phoenix. Yeah, that's right. From Orange County. How's our guy? Because they're gray and both rad, I mix him up with the rock and roll scientist in Philly. Oh yeah, that girl rocks too, yeah. They're equally awesome dudes and both of them.

Yes, you're right about that. Both of them texted me on my birthday and I was like, oh no. And somehow I never put that together that they were Similar they are exactly like yeah, that's awesome east and west coast guys, and they're both cool Julia Hayes Peter goes in ya of course you know that guy. He's a great guy And there was clearly a concerted effort to Donate to PayPal because I had a birthday, and I can't thank you guys enough.

It was incredibly kind of all of you. Thank you so much. We will use it to buy lots and lots of weed for the 420 show, and we'll celebrate in a couple months. Lovely, lovely, lovely. Other producers this week are Peyton Meadows, Jennifer Ward, Alana Zamel, Alana Zamel, Zamel, Isabelle Gill, Happy Hour in Tallulah,

Louisiana. He checked in. Jennifer Ward, Janice Hill, Danielle Garouge, Melanie Fielkowski, Brian Fingleton, Large Marge, Joshua Reagan, Kira with no last name, Tramiiday, Abby Forsbrook, Sierra Bee, Mattis Ryber, Les Sniper, Janie with no last name, Brada with no last name, Nicole Frazier, Zachary Jensen, Emily Walker, Chris Gavin,

Nikki Campbell, Casey McGrath, Ed Cuthane, Koolhane, Kuhlun, I don't know, Andrew with no last name, Krista Capps, Zachary Burns, Kim Gravater, Gravater? No last name Krista caps Zachary burns Kim great graviter graviter Karee care Well, Karee rising back Carrie. Thank you so much Shannon hovator of Otter Davis Miller, that's

Yeah, Davis Miller two last names for a name Davis Miller. Yeah, glist of her Craig Yamamoto. Glistopher gives no last name. Valerie Jensen. You don't need one. Nicole Sandland. Randy Howard. Haley would know last name.

Jason McClain. Jeff Solomon. Jason Barber. Landon Wood. Andrea McAllister. Susan Rozell. Rezzanette. Rezzanette.

Rezzanette, maybe. Rezzanette. Jenna Wisnowski is a name. Cole Robinson, Kyle Landrum, Jenna Crawford, Brian Forbes, Jimmy Asslicking, why would you want that said? I don't understand. Is there a joke that we missed?

Are you trying to be insulting? I don't know. We don't even know. That's how out of it is. We don't even know if you? Um, or supportive. We don't even know. That's how out of it is. We don't even know if you're being insulting or supportive. We don't know whether to say thank you or fuck you. Yeah. If we can't tell her to say thank you or fuck you, it's weird.

Sorry. I think you've, I think you've missed the mark. Thanks for money. Uh, Renee would know last name. This is Sparta. Indy would know last name. Tim Schwartz, Jake Simpson, Becky Elms, Cheri Tullier, Diane Davis, Cassandra Byrd, Carly Harris, Amanda Jedi Empress, Amanda S. James,

she loves Star Wars evidently. Cool, I guess so. I know that much about Star Wars that I know the Jedi's are from there. I would hope so. They returned in one whole movie. Monty Tudal, Tracy Richard, Alex Miles, Debbie Stevens, B. Bradley, Josh would know last name, Nick Messmer, Dan Dan, Revolution, Brayden Evans, Gregory McGrath, Chris Butler,

Joshua Baker, Larry, Laura, Laura Milner, Milner, M-L, that's a possibility? How do you even pronounce that? That's a possibility What am I supposed to do? Put a vowel in between there Jeffrey Boyer Rita Martinez Molu M What is this Josh Tetris Brandon would know last name Michael on Nicole Meyer? Yeah, that's Meyer Avery Brandon would know last name, Michael Onn, Nicole Meyer, yeah that's Meyer, Avery Lempka, Lempka, Mogwai Warbucks, James, it's his father though, it's seen here. I'm just Mogwai, that's Mr. Warbucks is my dad really. Call me Mogwai.

Brianna Mitchell, Homebrew Murder Crew, Wooden Monkey, Donato Nulfi, April Hansen, Meg Hinton, Buddy Priest, Linda Madison, Alexandra Panky, Southpaw 17, Florida 1. I don't know what that is. Is that an NFL game or a play that we're calling? I don't know. Nolan, Southpaw 17, Florida 1. Let's go on three on three. Drew would know last name, Kobe Bryant probably not,

more than likely not. Kathy Bain, Megan Jackson, Harley Posada, Jenny would know last name, Aaron would know last name, Alex Greenberg, Rachel would know last name, James Vogel sang, Chris would know last name, Jamie T Hernandez, Hugh Janus James. Oh he's out with you. That's with what's his name from before. They're together. Jimmy Masslicking Westman? No, no, the other one. The other one. The first one. We had another one of those tonight. They love these. I don't understand what the fuck is the word. They love the Bart Simpson calling Moe's bar. And you know what? One point in time I loved a good pun.

Kaylee Panick? I don't know. Craig Carl? No, it's Carl Craig. Devon Brown? First names, that's what you get. Get it together with the last name guys and exchange something. You both come away with two fucking normal names.

Crystal Cooper, Patrick Whitmore. What is this? Karen Buckley, David Spear. Money with no last name. Abby Richie, Gillian, Jillian. Jillian Scott, Brian Scott. Oh, both the Scott brothers or brother and sister. I don't know.

The Scots are here. Misled Chef with no last name. Pixie with no last name. Jamie, Ericwin, C. Munker. What? What is that? That's gotta be a misspelling, I'm so sorry. C. Munker. Kristi Wilcox, David Valerio, Waverly, that's a cool name, Bushke, Buschke, Buschke, Kelsey Havlick, Holly Wiel say a cool name. Holly Wilmers. Megan, with no last name.

Joan Gill. Amanda Bishop-Vott. Jennifer Sawyer. Abe Blinken. You know what? That's my favorite pun so far. That's pretty good. Maybe that's why I like puns, because Robin Hood Men in Tights,

there was an Abe Blinken pun in there that's fantastic. Hayden Powell. Purvey. Reed. Jonathan Hebert. Hebert. I hope it's not Purvey. That's fantastic. Hayden Powell, Purvey, Reid, Jonathan, Hebert, Hebert, I hope it's not Purvey, that's tough. Hebert, Hey Bayer, Dakota, Landorf, Vee with no last name, Heather King, Tom, Wonelli, Wonell, that's all. Jamie Lynn, Tara Love, I like that, that's a, alright. Shane Whittaker, Whit Acre, it's probably Whittaker. Eric Kimble,

Cassie Gill, Amber Luciani, and all of our patrons, I love you guys more than you know. Thank you. Thank you so much everybody for all that you do for us. Honestly, we cannot thank you enough for everything. Keep hanging out with us, tell your friends, follow us on social media. You wanna do that, shut up and givememurder.com.

Drop down menu, we'll take you anywhere you wanna go. Keep coming back week after week, and until next week everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. Are you captivated by the dark and mysterious world of true crime?

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