Small Town Murder - #64 - Dark Past, Scarier Present in Mineral Point, Wisconsin

Episode Date: April 5, 2018

This week, in Mineral Point, Wisconsin, a young man has a deep, dark secret in his past, that shocks everyone he knows, makes life very dangerous for several people that he feels have wronged him. It's a wild tale of lies, murder, and betrayal, with lives hanging in the balance. Oh, and it's hilarious!! Along the way, we find out why dead piglets make a lousy gift, how it was possible to inherit money from people you've killed, and what recourse you may have, if a known killer is stalking you! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday!!Please subscribe, rate, and review!Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!Head to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder!For merchandise: crimeinsports.threadless.comCheck out James and Jimmie's other show: Crime in Sports Follow us on social media!Facebook: facebook.com/smalltownpodInstagram: instagram.com/smalltownmurderTwitter: twitter.com/MurderSmall Contact the show: [e-mail] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Come see us at a live show, everybody. We promise it's so much fun. Can't wait to see you come out. Tell us to shut up and give you murder. This week in the mining town of Mineral Point, Wisconsin, three brutal murders were only foreshadowing for things to come. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay, indeed.

Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another edition of Small Town Murder. It is a crazy story. I will honestly say, unlike any other story we've done, this is a weird story this week. Number 64,

and you got something. It's weird. You got to wrap it up your sleeve, James. It's kind of what I've been saving for a little while, because's it's it's a it's a mind blower you're just like why what is happening fantastic so that's a little uh a little uh tickle your ass yeah there you go things to come things to come uh tour coming up as you heard at the top ah thank god tour tonight yes los angeles pico union project get down. If you're hearing this in the morning, that sort of thing, get your tickets now. It's in downtown LA. And if you're listening

in the morning and you leave right now, you'll get there with the traffic. You should get there by 7 p.m. So try that. Do that. Other dates on there. Shut up and give me murder.com. You can get everything on there. If you have not done it yet, please get on iTunes. And to everyone who has done it so far, thank you so much for your iTunes reviews.

We say it often, but it's true. iTunes has a funky algorithm. It's not our fault. The charts, the way they work, everything's all mixed together. And for some reason, these reviews weigh heavily. So that's why we ask for them. It's not for our ego. That's Apple's eternal flame for Steve Jobs.

It is. Just keep reviewing. If you could give us a review, that would be great. Give us five stars. It doesn't matter what you say because it's not for our egos. Honestly, tell us what your favorite brand of bottled water is and we'll think that's terrific. Mine's Perrier. There you go. Do that. He's fancy, Jimmy.

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By the fact that the goddamn... We're just nice guys. Yeah. No, no, no. We're not. We'd like to make fucking money off a goddamn thing that takes forever to put together and do that. Other podcast companies that might be listening, do you have this problem? If you had a highly ranked, look on your iTunes charts.

We're on there. If you had a highly ranked podcast, could you sell ads on it? Top 50? Could you do it? Or do you just go, I don't know, fuck it. No. It's funny because Crime and Sports has half the listeners loaded up with ads. Unbelievable.

Interesting, right? Can't stop selling. Zero goddamn ads every week, even though we go, sell us ads. Our fucking hair is on fire. I got a mortgage. Exactly. So what I'm basically saying is thank you for your Patreon contributions because otherwise this is insanity.

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address, crime and sports at gmail.com. You can do that. And now it's time for the disclaimer. Yeah. Yeah. And the disclaimers for a reason, too. We had a couple of tweets this week that were kind of shitty, that people were offended by something. That was a joke that actually wasn't even a joke, and they misunderstood something.

We said, it's silly. This is a comedy podcast, guys. The facts are real. The cases are real. Everything is real. That's all real. But we're going to make jokes. We're comedians.

I'm sorry. We do not make jokes at the expense of the victims and the victim's family. We really honestly try not to. We're assholes, but'm sorry. We do not make jokes at the expense of the victims and the victim's family. We'd really honestly try not to. We're assholes, but we're not scumbags. That's how we operate here. But this disclaimer is to tell you there's jokes in here. Watch out. Be careful.

Be careful. Don't walk down that hallway. A joke might come out. Murder, you're all fine with. Blood, gore, that's fine. Children raped, you're going to sit through that? God forbid a joke or somebody kills a dog, that's the end of the world. It's our fault for some reason.

So anyway, whoever's left, thanks a lot. Strap in because we've got a crazy-ass story. Let's get to it. Let's go on a trip, Jimmy. I can't wait. You ready to rock and roll? Let's do this. We're coming out of Kentucky.

It was not great down there in Edgewood, Kentucky. We had problems there. But we're going up north this week, and it's getting warmer. But that's nice. That's going to be helpful, but it's still pretty chilly up there. We're going up to Wisconsin, guys. We're going to Wisconsin. It's still snowing there today.

Yeah, it's cold. We're going to Mineral Point, Wisconsin. Never heard of it. Most people have not, actually. It's a well-kept secret for good reason. Actually, it seems like a pretty little town and all that sort of thing, but not a lot going on there. Let's get into it here.

It's in southwestern Wisconsin. Mineral Springs? Mineral Point. Mineral Point. Mineral Point. If there were springs, that'd be something. There's some springs over there. That's an attraction.

It's the point where some minerals happen. Exactly. Exactly. Here, though, it's southwestern Wisconsin. It's about an hour from Madison, which is the state capital, and, you know, with colleges and all that sort of thing. That's where they party, goddammit. That's where they party down there. Two hours to Milwaukee, which is, I don't know where they have it.

Jeffrey Dahmer's home? I was going to say, the Brewers and Jeffrey Dahmer, I guess. Isn't that fucked up? That's about it. Sorry. Do something else. You had Laverne and Shirley before that. So, honestly, Dahmer bumped Laverne and Shirley out of the top spot of what the fuck anybody has

Milwaukee reference to. So good for you, Dahmer. Way to knock out Penny Marshall out of the top spot. I like the League of their own a lot, but you know what? When you got dicks in your fridge, you're a contender. That's all there is to it. You're the winner. You're the winner. You are going to be the poster boy. That is two hours there

and an hour and 15 minutes to Baraboo, Wisconsin. We covered back in, I think, episode 32. Yes, with the leg breaking and all that. Fucking vile. If you have not listened to that episode, check it out. It is crazy. It's in Iowa County.

Oh, seriously? Right. Seriously? You can't think of it? Iowa, by the way, is right there. It's close to it. It is. It's a throwing distance, and that's not enough Iowa for you?

You need more fucking Iowa? What is wrong with you people? Iowa's too much Iowa. Good God. There's enough Iowa in Iowa. Let's have a campaign to keep the Iowa in Iowa, everybody. Not anywhere else. We had Iowa, Iowa, Iowa, Louisiana, Iowa County.

This is ridiculous. But Iowa. Area code 608. It is a 1.89 square mile town. So it's a small little town, too. Pretty tiny. The motto, and this is actually their motto, quote, where Wisconsin begins. And hope ends.

That part's mine. But yeah, that's where Wisconsin begins. More like a warning. Alternate, we have cheese and we're named after Iowa. So whatever that's worth, come on by. That's not as popular. They replaced that with Where Wisconsin Begins, which is, yeah, not quite. Iowa with farts.

Good. Iowa with farts. Good cheese stink. Iowa with long-held farts. Farts from food eaten eight hours ago. The website pitch. Beer and cheese farts are horrible, and that whole state is full of them. It's got to be.

The website pitch here is hilarious, by the way. Mineral Point. Visit us and experience small-town life with a creative flair. We are a community with makers of all kinds, from painters and sculptors to farmers and foodies. The art and history are part of our everyday lives, and we love sharing that with you. You're cordially invited to come for a visit and stay as long as you like. Find out for yourself why people fall in love with this place

and why Smithsonian Magazine named us one of the 20 best small towns to visit. Yes, exactly. And horrible things happening. That took a lot of words to say that. That sounds like a sales pitch. You should have just said, Smithsonian Magazine said

we're one of the best small towns. What's up, fuckers? I feel like they have a little bit of an inferiority complex. There's only 19 other towns that get to say that shit. It's inferiority complex, I feel like. That's why they're like, do this, come on, you can stay as long as you want. It's like, you sold me already at Smithsonian Magazine.

What are you doing? What are you doing? I'm driving off the lot in the corner. You're talking me out of this shit, right? And you're telling me about the brakes. I'm already driving off the lot. You sold it. What are you doing? I'm driving off the line. You're talking me out of this shit. You're telling me about the brakes. I'm already driving off the line. You sold it. What's the difference? What are you doing? More pitching for it. They have quotes

from people that say... Don't believe the Smithsonian? Listen to these people. Listen to these people. Testimonials. Who are not the Smithsonian. Quote, we are still in awe from our stay and are forever changed by this experience. Jesus. Jesus Christ.

Did they get raped there? Truly. Did they get gang raped? Forever changed. Holy shit. That'll change it. The only time I was forever changed in my life was when I was raped. That's when you're going to change, I would imagine, and other traumatic experiences.

That's like the most change that I would say. If you won Powerball, maybe you'd be like, that forever changed me. I had a better attitude. Things were great. Before that, I was a fucking miserable. Kind of a mess, if I'm being honest with you. I don't know. Good Christ.

Oh, my God. The history of this town. First European settlement at Mineral Point. European, read white. That's not Indian, is what they're saying here. Began in 1827. One of the first settlers in the area was Henry Dodge and his family. They settled a few miles.

They settled in Mineral Point. The following year, they found large quantities of galena in the area. Do you know what that is? No. It's an iron ore. It's also called lead glance. It's the natural mineral form of lead sulfite. It's the most important ore of lead

and an important source of silver as well. I saw you brace yourself. You were like, do you know what that is? And you were like, does he fucking know? I was hoping he did. I wouldn't have to read that. If I hit that for you, you'd have been like, what? How do you know that? Fuck yeah, moving on. That would have been great. That would have been like, sweet. Great. Right out of the bullseye.

There we go. Next thing. Yeah. Right out of the bullseye. There we go. Next thing. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, this was discovered in shallow deposits around the area. And as you know, if anything's found in the ground, people are going to flock there. You bet. Yeah.

It's apparently very well. There's a lot of it out there, this Galena shit. It's all over the place. But they needed it at the time. Lead had a lot of uses at the time. And settlers came in. They wanted to extract shit. This was like the pre-gold rush.

This was the lead rush. We're going to get lead, everybody, which seems much less glamorous. They had no idea. I found lead. Good for you. Must be worth a fortune. Terrific. I can't feel my fingers anymore.

I can't feel nothing. I bit a little to see if it was real. I'm blind in my right eye. I'm not going to lie to you. But I think it's real stuff. I think it's good. They always do it with a bite of gold. It's crazy.

Why do they do that? Because it was soft. Gold is soft. Is that what it is? Real gold is very soft. You can make an impression with your teeth. Whereas if it's a rock, then you'll just break your teeth. Then it just breaks your tooth. That's a good gamble.

It's a gamble. You've got to really have a lot of faith in yourself there. Otherwise, a dentist in a gold mine in town is just a busy guy, constantly broken teeth everywhere. Putting gold in people's mouths. Why do you want gold teeth then if that shit's soft? Well, you can harden it. You mix it with different things. That's why there's like 24-karat gold is super soft, and then like 10-karat gold is super hard.

That's like for a guy's, a male's ring. Yeah, like a big ring. You'd have like a 10-karat or 12- hard. That's like for like a guy's, a male's ring. Yeah, like a big ring. You'd have like a 10-carat or 12-carat or even 14 is getting a little softer. It's more of like an engagement ring or something like that. Well, that's interesting. I don't know how I know that shit, by the way. I really don't. I just tried to think where I learned that.

I have no idea. If you would have had this information before Goliath, was that what the show was called? Galena. Yeah. You wouldn't have even had to ask me. Never mind. Yeah. Fine.

He just asked me what's soft. Why is it soft? Why is it soft? Why do people want those teeth? Why? Why is it in there? It's crazy. It's a chunk of sesame seeds stuck in it and shit.

Eventually, it would look like your teeth were going outward. You know what I mean? From chewing. Yeah, they'd just be all mashed down like wax teeth. Lead deposits were all over the area and into Dubuque, Iowa and Galena, yeah. They'd just be all mashed down like wax teeth. So, lead deposits were all over the area and into Dubuque, Iowa and Galena, Illinois, because obviously that's what they named it after. But Mineral Point apparently became the epicenter of the mining operations. It was the whole, this was what it was all about here.

1829, the population led to the creation of Iowa City, which included all the lead mining lands in there. And Mineral Point was established as the county seat later that year. Got it. So you have to have, or Iowa County. I said Iowa City for some reason. Iowa County. And then they named Mineral Point the county seat.

As we know, people will fight for that shit. You got it. That shit's valuable. Valuable, boy. All those records. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know why the fuck it's around.

For some reason, they fought over it. They had a war in 1832 with some local natives here. The Blackhawk War of 1832. A brief conflict between the U.S. and Native Americans led by Blackhawk, who was a leader of one of their tribes there. Apparently, Blackhawk and a group of other Kickapoos, Socks, and Mesquakis. Yes, Kickapoos.

Which sounds like an Australian football team, doesn't it? It sounds like a... The Melbourne Kickapoos. It's like the minor league team. It sounds like an actual Native American pastime of kicking poo. Kicking poo, yes. If you didn't have a ball, you'd just kick that poo around. Apparently they crossed the Mississippi River into Illinois from the Iowa Indian Territory.

And nobody knew what—they said the motives—they didn't know why they were there. They didn't seem to be on the attack. But the U.S. decided, just in case, they better kill them all. Let's shoot some warning shots right into their face. Let's kill them all. Yeah, they said that they were... In the end, the Indians said they were coming there to try to avoid bloodshed

with more people that were coming in, so they were trying to resettle, basically, but it didn't work out that way. That's fucked up. U.S. people were convinced that they were hostile and mobilized a militia and opened fire on them, on a delegation that was there to negotiate on May 14, 1832.

The Blackhawk and his people actually successfully attacked the militia after that, though. Nice. So they came back. This went back and forth, the whole deal. The residents of Mineral Point built Fort Jackson to protect the town from a possible attack because this was all around in the area. A lot of towns got run over and looted and things like that here. And for his efforts, Chicago named their hockey team after him. Yes, yes.

Well, yeah, exactly. Well, hey, he's a tough son of a bitch. What do you want? He wasn't scared of shit, this guy. That's what ends up happening here. So, yeah, it was just kind of a misunderstanding that turned into a big skirmish because nobody trusted anybody. It was one of those things here. It was getting more important, this place, Mineral Point, in the area.

In 1834, it was selected as the site of one of two federal land offices responsible for distributing public land to settlers all around Wisconsin. That's valuable. So, yeah, I mean, you have to be close there to be b all around Wisconsin. That's valuable. So, yeah, I mean, you have to be close there to be bribing people. One of two. One of two. You have to be within bribing range. So that's a good thing.

If you can enter any kind of federal land office, you want to be near that shit, I would imagine here. 1840s, they kept mining the lead, mining the lead. All the surface deposits were gone by then, but they would bring in immigrants at that point. Dig deeper. We'll import people and stick them in the ground. Remember what we said about Italians. You don't even have to grease them up. You have a smaller hole, you shoot them right through there.

Come in my greasy friend. Right out of there. They're going. They actually got the Cornish this time. Really? Which, for some reason, if you watch Deadwood, all the miners are Cornish. Cornish are the only people that mine well for some reason. I'm going to ask a dumb question. I don't know why.

Cornwall they're from. Where? Cornwall. England. Okay. All right. Yeah. I knew you were going to.

I was trying to think of the country that was Cornish. Yeah. No. I don't know of Cornland. Cornland. Right. Oh, Cornland. My homeland of corn.

Cornotopia where I'm from of corn. Cornotopia, where I'm from. Back in Cornotopia, we sit back on the porch at night and sip lemonade and talk about the corn. It's a really nice thing to do. Sounds like a lot of small people. It sounds like, yes. Well, the Cornish, they're hardy people. They're tough people. They're sty people. They're tough people. They're stout people. By 1845, roughly half the town's population was Cornish of some kind, either descendants or whatever.

They built a lot of the stuff, too, around this time that's still there. It's a very historic town. There's a historic district with lots of old buildings. They kept a lot of it there. old buildings. So they kept a lot of it there. The town's furnaces were producing 43,800 pounds of lead a day by 1847. Holy shit.

Which seems like a shitload of lead. That's scary. That seems like a lot. That's a lot of tons of lead. That's over 20 tons of lead. What do you need to do with all that lead? Ship it out. Yeah, I guess.

I don't know. Is that like lead beams? I don't know what they're doing with it. It's got to be, right? But it doesn't even matter at the time because this is all going to come to a very big halt. Yeah. Because this is 1847. Right. In 1848, gold is discovered in California.

So everyone who's mining for lead is like, fuck lead. What's this shit worth? One 800th of what's that? I'm going there. We produce how many thousand pounds a day? Yeah. And it doesn't matter because it's worth like $75. And all the experienced miners left.

All the people who knew what they were doing were like, I'm going to go get rich. Thank you. And the town lost 700 people during the California gold rush, which they could not afford to lose at the time. It was tough here. There was epidemics here in 1849 and 50. There was an Asiatic cholera epidemic that broke out. What?

And yeah, they lost 100 people, were killed to that, which they again couldn't afford to lose. So everybody leaves to mine, and then there's a cholera plague. Asiatic? Like, what the fuck? Asiatic from Asia. Who the hell's going to Asia from Iowa? I don't know.

Or from Wisconsin. They're putting a railroad in. I suppose. Well, there's a lot of Asians coming in at that time. Plus, I think maybe they just call it that because that's the origins. Probably, yeah. It's like now the Asian bird flu. You got it from a guy in Fort Lauderdale.

It doesn't matter. Who wasn't Asian at all. It's still the Asian bird flu. It's still the Asian. Even though you got it from Tyrell. Exactly. Exactly. So the lead industry continues into the 1860s, but nobody gives a shit anymore because there's gold and other things here.

The lead mine went away, kind of declined. They put in zinc mines. They were looking for that. There's nothing else here. If we want people to live here, we better go into the ground and pull something the fuck out because otherwise no one's coming. So they built a lot of it this time in the late 1800s. They built the stone cottages and the businesses that are still there. It's a lot of stone things.

The city hall was built in 1914, which has a library and an opera house there, too. All made out of stone? All made out of stone and crafted by the Cornish settlers. That's cool. There was no mine work anymore, so they were like, well, we'll build some shit then. And they resorted to fucking like 1600s masonry. Yeah. All made out of stone.

A lot of stone buildings, stone bottoms, stone. Like a Disney cartoon. Yeah, it's just very, that's how they kind of built shit back then. I guess you're right. Even if you look at the old buildings in New York, they built in the 30s.

They're all the big stone foundations. And you know, I mean, there's other shit under the ground, obviously, so it doesn't crumble every time there's wind. Re you know shit like that they go those buildings in New York are like fucking teeth they go deep they look like they're just a building and then they're just stories under the ground yeah otherwise it'll just fall over in the ocean because it's not that it's that was like never mind it doesn't matter it wasn't made to build buildings there in most

of New York City but anyway uh for a tourist destination here, it's voted most beautiful town and best historic town by the Wonders of Wisconsin website in 2008. The entire city was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1971, which is pretty goddamn cool. I wonder if that's the only place that's like that. It's super weird. Plus, they talk about there not being big tour groups. There's no souvenir shops with people packing them. There's no souvenir shops. One person here

who's the proprietor of a gallery said, quote, we have no t-shirts except at the grocery store, the Chamber of Commerce, and the Dime Store. No t-shirt shops, no knick-knack shops here. Said a guy without a shirt. Said Leslie Bolin, who runs a gallery. So, yeah, probably said from a woman.

She said it shirtless. We have no t-shirts. We have no t-shirts. We could use some t-shirts. If y'all could spare some. If you know of a town that has extra t-shirts, even if they say the name of that town, we'll wear them here. Could you send us the loser of the Super Bowls t-shirts? Please, we

could use it. Sister City here. Could you send us the Loser of the Super Bowls t-shirts? Please. We can use it. Sister City here. It has a Sister City. It's Red Ruth in Cor Redruth or however the fuck you say because it's in the UK. Who knows? Redruth. Redruth. I don't know.

It's in Cornwall, obviously. It's a Cornish city. People from here. It's a bunch of politicians from Wisconsin politicians and Major League Baseball players I've never heard of. Really? And Alan Ludden, who is the host of the game show Password. Okay. So we have that.

I know who he is. So there's that. People in this town, population is 2,494. Wow. It's a small town. Yeah. That's pretty tiny. It's down 5% since 2000.

Okay. Which is pretty much everywhere in the northern areas, as always. Median age is a little bit older. As populations decline, the ages go up, because who stays? The old people, which is weird, because you'd think they'd be going to Florida. Yeah, the ones who can't afford to leave and don't have the wherewithal. Median age here is almost 44, so that's about seven years older than the norm. Way more females than males here.

It's 54%, over 54%, which is way out of whack. I feel like ladies are more cut out for these cold fucking climates. Well, maybe. That's true. There's also more widows there, which is a thing. Less shrinkage. Older population, the guys die off, especially guys who worked from mining. I mean, they weren't mining now,

but who knows? I don't know what the hell's going on there. But married populations weigh higher than normal, too. It's about 8% higher. It's 58% here. So the single population obviously would be lower. More widows, like I said. The divorce rate's the same, though.

So they'll stay married until you die. So they'll do that. There will be no divorce. Yeah, yeah. You will die in this agreement. You will die in this agreement. You will die here in Mineral Point. And you will live a lot shorter life than I will.

And I'm more capable of handling cold, so I'm going to stick around. Have that, motherfucker. And hopefully that guy next door outlives his wife. Yeah, we'll see what happens. Then maybe I'll go sit with them and watch Shepherdy. We'll see what happens. So married with no children is about 50% here, which is way higher than normal. So that's old people usually.

It's older couples, things like that. Race of this town. Or the lead is gone from the pencils. Yeah, well, they might have killed off all the kids while they ate the lead paint off the walls in the 60s. And now they're all dead and their parents are sitting there. Shit. Now we're all old. Just shrugging shoulders.

Married and childless because our kids died in the 70s from lead poisoning. It's a shame. Going, how'd this happen? Who knows? So race of this town, it's Wisconsin, so it's pretty fucking white. You betcha. Let's be honest here. It's 95.6% white, to be exact.

Wowza. 0.0% black. Not a black person to be found. Not one. One. 0.0% Asian, despite the Asiatic cholera being prominent 160 years ago. 170 years ago. It took those

three with them. Yeah, they were like, fuck you. They didn't allow any more Asians after that. One time they brought a cholera. You bring that cholera up here? We didn't have any Asians that brought it in, but goddammit, I know it's from them, so I ain't letting them in. They all got cholera. They ain't allowed. They ain't allowed. 3% Hispanic, so it's just a white town.

Just very, very white. 49% of the people here are religious, which is right about at norm. 28% Catholic. It's a lot of Catholic up there. 0.0% LDS. Like, fuck that. No, these Cornish people, they're from hardy mining stock. They're not going to buy our bullshit.

0.0% Jewish, as you might expect in Mineral Point, Wisconsin. Also, all the people that are there have been there since before the LDS religion was invented. Yeah, that's the other thing. Like 72 or whatever. They only leave. They don't come. Yeah, they just hide. They're not even asking for people.

But on the website, they're like, come visit us. And then they're like, don't visit us. We don't have any tourist shit or shops. We don't have any t-shirts. Sorry. No t-shirts here for you. No t-shirts, no tourists. 0.0% Islam, of course, because we're in Mineral Point, Wisconsin. 65% of the

people here are registered Democrats. It's kind of an artsy place. Wisconsin's certain areas are pretty blue, and this is like an artsy kind of a district, so you're going to have more Democrats. Gotcha. Sort of thing here. 34% Republican.

Republicans don't say that you're not artsy, but you're not. You're not. So, sorry. That side of your brain does not work. I don't know. It's true. And if you're liberal, I don't know, maybe another side doesn't work for you. I have no fucking idea.

I'm not going to make judgments, but I'm just calling them like I see them. Unemployment rate here is pretty low, actually. It's about 3.5%, which is 2% less than the norm. Not bad at all here. Household income, right about at normal. It's about $53,000, about $500 less than the national average for household income, so that's not bad at all. Jobs here, a little bit different.

I feel like there's more shops here now, because that article was from a few years ago, because retail trade is twice as much as normal here. Oh, that's just the Walmart. And that might be the Walmart, based on population. There's no t-shirts in the Walmart. More educational services there. No t-shirts at all. Well, they said at the grocery store, but not at the Walmart.

I feel like they don't even have a Walmart here. Their Walmart is the grocery store. This is one of those towns that keeps Walmart out. They protest them. I don't know if they did or not. That makes sense. It seems like that kind of town. They're artsy.

They have a high street with shops and shit like that. It's like Vermont here, basically. Gotcha. That kind of a thing. Keep your Walmart down south. Get your damn Walmart out of our town. The cost of living here, we say $100,000 is par average. The cost of living overall is $96,000.

Everything's pretty close. Healthcare is high at $122,000. I figure that's usually the old. Whenever there's elderly, more old. Always goes up. It goes up. Supply and demand, babe. That's it, man.

Housing is $73,000, though. So, not bad. It's pretty affordable to live here. Median home cost is $135,500. Not bad. So, not bad. It's pretty affordable to live here. Median home cost is $135,500. Not bad. Which is not bad. It's about $50,000 less than the average, so that's not too shabby there. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of houses, too. It's about 55% of the houses are between $100,000 and $200,000. So, it's very middle class when it comes to that. It's funny, too. And then

there's like 2% over a million. So then they have like their uppity thing. And if we've convinced you that the only place for you to be is Mineral Point, Wisconsin, damn it, cheese and beer for you, we have for you the Mineral Point, Wisconsin Real Estate Report. Your average two-bedroom apartment here goes for about $700, which is about $350 under the average, so that's not bad under the national average. I found a three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,500-square-foot absolute dump. Complete shithole. Looks like a place where a bunch of people were murdered and left there 20 years ago, and you'd have to go sweep their bones out to live there. I love those places.

When I see those places driving on the freeway on the way to LA or wherever the fuck I'm going, I love looking at that house out in the middle of nowhere that's a dilapidated piece of shit and just imagining the atrocities that went on in that house. And it's like untreated wood on the outside. It looks terrible. $65,000. There you go. Just for the property.

Four bedroom, two bath, 2,400 square foot house. Very nice go. Just for the property. Four-bedroom, two-bath, 2,400-square-foot house. Very nice. Middle-class, nice house. $179,000 for that. And I found a four-bedroom, four-bath, 5,200-square-foot brick stretch-out-and-relax kind of a place. $464,900. Deal. And a damn fine house.

That's fantastic. It's worth it, except for the fact that you have to live in Wisconsin. Right. Things to do. The city is home to an end point of the Cheese County Trail. The end. Which, you can't make that up. Of course it's called the Cheese County Trail.

You're in Wisconsin, where every exit advertises 45 different places to get cheese as you're driving through the interstate there. It's horrible. But good cheese. So, stop and grab some. My sister Hackerly loves to go through, because she has family back there on her husband's side, and she loves to go back to Wisconsin and then bring all kinds. It's fantastic cheese.

It's good cheese. But it feels weird. I feel like a hacky fuck. I feel like a tourist eating it. That's what it is. The Cheese County Trail is a 47-mile multi-use rail trail in southwestern Wisconsin. It connects a bunch of cities. It's trails used for ATVs, bicycles, horses, snowmobiles, and hikers, it says.

There's the Mineral Point Railroad Museum, which sounds boring as shit and maybe kind of interesting. I don't know. And also, they have Historic Preservation Weekend, May 3rd through 6th, Home Tours, Preservation Seminars, Dinner, and Old Time Radio Drama. That sounds great. So hit that up. That sounds like fun. Apart from that stupid radio drama. Yeah, it's going to be boring.

I'd love to see all the houses. Because the whole fucking town is historic. Yeah, it's historic. That's great. So it's just basically like, come see our town and all the history. Crime Raid. But I don't want to sit on fucking Nana's front yard and listen to the radio. That I don't want to do.

From Wisconsin Public Radio. Sounds boring. The awful accents. That's where it's from. Oh, God the radio. That I don't want to do. From Wisconsin Public Radio. Sounds boring. The awful accents. That's where it's from. Oh, God, Jesus. They all look like that. Trying to do British accents, doing an old-time radio drama. Crime rate in this town.

Property of crime is slightly less than average, and violent crime is just under the average. They're both pretty close to on range, though, on point. Got it. It's a pretty basic, kind of nice middle class fairly safe nice little town uh you know a place where you wouldn't expect bad shit to happen right uh let's talk about some bad shit that happens let's see bad cheese let's unless you eat bad then some bad shit's gonna happen here uh let's talk about something and some of this information not a lot of it because good crisis is from 20 different sources of all different things.

But the way this one guy put together a story was really, really concise. And I feel like I need to read his name even though I'm not using everything from him. It's just still this guy named Bruce Vilmetti from the journal Sentinel wrote a great piece on this that was just kind of a nice, concise overview to where I was like, okay, now I know where I'm going. So I give this guy a lot of credit. He saved me some time in reading 45 different sources and piecing it together. I kind of got the story and then went out and found the info I wanted and more info. 1968 we'll start with here. This isn't when the crimes take place.

Isn't it brutal for you investigating these the way that they write articles nowadays where because the news cycle is so fucking right now and they put out an article and then they put out another article with that same shit in it with one fucking paragraph that's new. I can't imagine reading 35 fucking news articles looking for that tiny ass two sentences that are added. So I have to keep reading them. Fucking nightmare.

You never know, man. No, thank you. It goes the same thing with different appeals courts of the same thing. They somehow add different facts, and it's never mind. Jesus. Welcome to my goddamn hell. I can't imagine. Welcome to my hell, everybody.

Fuck that. No fucking ads. We're about 30. Right now, an ad would be playing, right? In the beginning of the murder story about that. You hear shit playing? You know what? We're going to take a break from the show right now.

Tell you about nothing. Tell you about jack shit. That's what we're going to tell you about. Tell you about nothing. Jack shit. Good job, guys. Way to go. And now back to the show.

If you can see, if you have a podcast that you want no ads on, you want to have a clean podcast, concise, not clogged up with all this revenue-making ads, all these things that make it a viable career choice for you to spend 80 hours a goddamn week doing? There's only one network for you, and that's Podcast One. Get yourself over to PodcastOne.com. Get a hold of Norm. He's in charge over there. Maybe he'll have a deal for you.

Now, back to the show. All right. So, let's talk about Linda Zaworski. Okay. 1968. We're going to start. This is not when the crime takes place. No one was just in his backswing and the fucking record skipped.

Yeah, that's the thing. I can't afford to be in my backswing, so I don't really give a fuck. I hope you shanked it off into the fucking woods, asshole. I do. Mulligan, motherfucker. I hope you lose this game. You deserve the fucking woods, asshole. I do. Mulligan, motherfucker. I hope you lose this game. You deserve to lose this round, okay? On me.

Fuck it. So 1968, Linda Zaworski is a young girl. She's 18 years old, and she's pregnant, which in the 60s, if you're 18 and you're pregnant, that's kind of a scary thing if you don't live in, like, you know, Haight-Ashbury District of San Francisco at that moment. You got a tough decision to make. That's kind of a scary thing if you don't live in like, you know, hate Ashbury district of San Francisco at that moment. You got a tough decision. It's frightening. Yeah.

She she's pregnant. She's scared. Her mother orders her into a Catholic group home to await the birth of the baby. It was one of those unwed mother homes that they'd stick you in and make you shame the fuck out of you. Yeah. And make you raise the baby for a while and give it away. It's super weird and psychologically fucking strange.

Messed up. All these Twitter wars of people saying slut-shaming is terrible. You're aiming at the wrong people. Go aim at the fucking Catholic Church. They've been slut-shaming for years. Years? For millennia? That's what they're all about.

Since the beginning. The Catholic Church. We hate sluts. That should be their. That's what they're all about. Since the beginning. The Catholic Church. We hate sluts. That should be their sit. Slut shaming. It's fucking ridiculous. The only people that don't slut shame are in-house motherfuckers. And should be shamed.

So she's doing that. She awaits the birth of the baby. The baby's born. It's adopted pretty quickly. In the years that followed here, she thought about trying to track her son down. It was a son named Paul. She named him Paul and then gave him away. Very religious. You're in a Catholic group home.

What do you want here? I believe Aunt Mary, or Sister Mary Beth. I just went down every female relation. Aunt, uncle. What are we talking about here? Great-grandmother Mary. Sister Mary Beth named that child. She didn't pick it.

Yeah, no, probably not. They said Paul. And this woman, I mean, she just wondered. I mean, if you had a child at 18, you gave it up for adoption, you might wonder, because you saw the baby. You held the baby. You might wonder what happened to this baby. I wonder if he's safe.

I wonder if he grew up well. I wonder if he's tall or short or fat. You to this baby. I wonder if he's safe. I wonder if he grew up well. I wonder if he's tall or short or fat. You just never know. I wonder if he's nice. I wonder if he's nice. You just want to know anything. I wonder what color hair he has. Who knows?

Does he look like me or does he look like that dude I banged back at? Little things like that. Who knows? Yes, it's very common, this whole thing here. But, yes, she was shunned, basically, hidden away in this. That's horrible. you have to feel scared enough if you're 18 and pregnant in 1968 but to be shipped away

somewhere basically like you're quarantined for a while because you can't be around the other and that's what it basically was I feel like too it was to try to help them quote unquote making air quotes in case you can see but it was also I feel like to get them away from the other girls right like oh no don't you'll infect the other girls with the sex disease you have.

Don't make them think that this is okay. Yeah, Jesus Christ here. Apparently her mother's first comment upon learning of her pregnancy was, quote, what do you expect me to tell my friends? That's what it was. I can't have my pregnant teenage girl. What do you expect me to tell my friends, mom? Yeah, what about me? Jesus Christ, man. This place, too, it was in Chicago. Her and all the other pregnant teens had to care for, well, had to, but they did. They cared for developmentally disabled children while they were pregnant, too.

So it was like they were doing community service, pretty much. They told their friends and relatives that the family did, that she was in England for a semester abroad. Wow. That's what they used to do back then. That's like telling a kid when their dad's in prison, he's off exploring. He's in college. He's in college or he's exploring the mountains or some shit. He's being a cowboy, I think, with Tony. They told Tony Soprano's dad.

They told him. That's their shit there. She said, quote, I was 18. I really didn't have a choice. I never signed any papers. I got to hold Paul twice before the nuns just took him and said he was going to a very good family. She was told by her family never to mention

the child, to pretend like it never happened. Yeah, the father of this was apparently from what she says, Zaworski said it was a date rape incident. It's the 60s and that was kind of what people fucking insanity. They were just like,

I feel like I feel like pre I don't know 2011 73% of the sex was non-consensual. I feel like all of it was all non-consensual. Everyone's drugging everybody and date raping what the fuck was going on? How was

everybody okay with this? Seems like every week on Dateline there's a story about a 16 year old boy who forced a pool cue up some girl. There's always that. It's fucked up. Every song from the 60s is like cajoling and begging and trying to talk this girl into letting me just stick it in. And once I stick it in, I ain't taking it out.

So you can change your mind all you want. It's fucking crazy. Like, I don't know what was going on in society, but things have gotten a little better. Not much, but a drop better than this. Maybe social media is helping with that. I would much, but a drop better than this. Maybe social media is helping with that. I would say, yeah. Making it less acceptable. You can't come home from a date like nowadays if you're like a teenage boy and be like,

yeah, she was fighting it, but I got it. You can't say that now. You can't. Your friends will be like, what the fuck? What? Your dad will call the cops, hopefully. Your friends will beat you up for that. Like, what are you, an asshole?

What the fuck are you doing? But like back then, they'd be like, well, yeah, you got to get it. Why don't you get it in? You know, what are they going to do then? Just got to talk them into it. Remember that meatloaf song? That's what happens. There was a song about I kissed him, or he punched me, and it felt like he kissed me.

And the chick won like an Emmy for it, or a Grammy. A Grammy for it. Dude, the songs were messed an Emmy for it. A Grammy. A Grammy for it. Dude, the songs were messed up back then here. They were. They were crazy. It is absurd. It makes no sense at all. Nothing.

He hit me. That's what it was. He hit me and it felt like he kissed me. What? What are you talking about? Well, I mean, if it was, well, we've talked about this before. It was comedy for, you know, on the honeymooners for him to threaten his wife. On Lucy, I Love Lucy, the biggest laugh was when Lucy had a big scheme that backfired

and Ricky finally caught her and then put her over his knee and spanked her. And he's whacking her and she's going, wah, and the crowd's fucking dying. He's doing it in front of the neighbors. Fred and Ethel are standing right there going, hey, well, Lucy needs an ass kick. I'm like, what the fuck is going on? It's crazy, man. This game didn't pay off. It's nuts.

It's time to pay the piper. It's wild. Yeah. I mean, we're guys and all that, and we're pretty guy-y guys, too. We're fairly bro-ish. We like sports. Guys out there who are like, these fucking chicks and all that, think about this. This was not that long ago.

You're the same people who are like, well, fucking black people can drink out of the fountain now. It's like, well, that wasn't that long ago long ago it wasn't it might be a little leery i'm just saying you know it's give people a minute fucking a you know you think about it jesus christ i heard a great joke and i can't remember who it is and i apologize so much to whoever it is but it's a stand-up joke where the guy says uh he starts out talking about, it's a female comic. She starts talking about madmen. And she's a black woman and she starts talking about how white people are pissed off and all this type of shit. And she's like, have you ever seen Mad Men?

I'd be pissed off too. They could just come in the office, drink all day, have sex with their secretary, slap her on the ass, tell her wife to go fuck themselves. Gamble, drink the rest of the night have sex with another like i'd be pissed too if i lost all that imagine having all that losing it it's like that's a fucking great joke it's a great it's a great point yeah and that's how people are 60s was amazing if you were a white guy you were a white dude with money right in a certain area nobody else and nobody was not great for anybody else. No, not anyone else. Women, it was terrible. So that's what was going

on there. And let me tell you, it's not fucking great for us right now because we, as a white dude, we catch a lot of wrath and I want to say, but I didn't do it. And also too, I grew up broke as fuck. Do you know how

unprivileged I am? But I understand that saying that is still my privilege. The point is, I don't have shit. The point is, yeah, when we get pulled over when you're speeding on a trip, you're not worried about the cops are going to shoot you. You're like, I'll talk my way out of this. You're not like, stay fucking still, hands on your lap. We get pulled over and bent and I go, I'll get out of the car and I'll go talk to him. He jumps out of the car and goes talking to these guys.

They hadn't even come up to the car yet. Try that shit if you're black. I'll be right back, James. Just relax. I don't know where I'm from. I was horrified by that. They're going to kill him. Oh, my God.

And I'm like, oh, no. And then when I get out of the car and I come back, you go, what happened? I go, it's just a warning. That's the privilege. I get it. But the point is, I still don't fucking have anything. You have a dirt bike. I do have a dirt bike.

I have a fucking badass burp. He gets adopted. That's true. He gets adopted. He gets adopted by a couple. The father's name is Hans Zimmer. He's from Germany. Oh, boy.

He immigrated to the Chicago area as a young child, and he lives in that area. He married a woman named Sally Sokol, who became Sally Zimmer later on. In 1968, they adopt a little boy named Peter at the time. Well, he was Paul, but now he's going to be Peter. They rename him Peter after Hans' father. Oh, that's nice. So that's nice anyway. Keeping the biblical shit going.

Let's keep doing that here. And four years later, they adopt another son. Jesus. So they couldn't have any children. Hans is a fucking hero. Yes. They adopt a couple of kids here. They raise them in Wakanda.

I'm sure I'm saying it right. Wakanda. That's right. Illinois. Yeah. All right. They raise them there Wakanda. I'm sure I'm saying it right. Wakanda? That's right. Illinois? They raise them there. It looks like that. So good. But things are having, he's having problems. Hans, I don't know why, but he was an airline mechanic and he lost

his job as an airline mechanic in March of 83. And I'm not sure why or what happened, if it was a downsizing. He fucked up. I'm not sure. I don't know when Pan Am Flight 103 was fucked up. I'm not sure. I don't know when Pan Am Flight 103 was or whatever. I'm not positive about exactly what happened. Any flights go down in 1983?

If anything in March of 83 went down. Origin from the Midwest. Then we can wrap this case up. Flew out of Wakanda. Yeah. Wakanda International. Is that one? Yikes. So they move, I hope he worked at O'Hare or something. He did something.

They move the family to Mineral Point, Wisconsin. Gotcha. Okay. Sally's brother, the wife, Sally Zimmer's brother, owned a company that made crystals for radios there. I didn't know radios took crystals. Maybe they didn't. I have no idea what the fuck you do with a radio crystal, but I don't know much about electronics. Maybe it helped with the tuning.

Who knows? They probably still use them. I have no idea. No clue. Is that how radio works? You power it with crystals? I think so. It's possible.

Maybe that's what makes it get stuck. And you've got to find... There's only specific radio... The antenna's just for show. Right. That's how you get... That red light blinking, that's bullshit. That's bullshit. It's all about crystals. There's so many crystals. The antenna's just for show. That's how you get. That red light blinking, that's bullshit. That's bullshit. It's all about crystals.

There's so many crystals. You ever take a radio apart, there's not even any wires or cords or tubes or anything. It's just crystals falling. That's why meth heads take them apart. Like, wow, there's crystals in here. I'm going to smoke them. So they get a job. He gets a job at her brother's business, which is Sokol Crystals, Inc.

They live in a farmhouse, which is a few miles outside of Mineral Point. It's still considered Mineral Point, though. Peter Zimmer is the son. He's growing up here. So he's about 14 at this time when they moved to Mineral Point. He's not happy with the move at all. He's pissed off. I can imagine.

Yeah, he does not want to move. Shit, it's historic. I don't want to be here. Yeah, well, plus, I moved. I went to, like, nine different schools i've i moved around a lot and yeah i went to tons of different schools i went to four different elementary schools sounds fucking terrible it was terrible yeah that's gee why are you a comic i don't know you show up somewhere what do you got i guess i'll try to be funny because maybe then people will like me i don't fucking know maybe that's why i went to one why do you not like people i don't know six then i went to one in for seventh then i got moved to another one for seventh yeah

and then i stayed over there until high school like i switched schools in the middle of ninth grade too so as a freshman in high school it's a shit time to move you're just trying to establish yourself and you're going in with a bunch of people that have kind of already have your established groups and it's the it's just a bad place to be. I went to elementary school in a really shit neighborhood. So every year was all new kids. Because it was like their parents were always running from something. And they were always moving. Transient area.

Yeah. There was only like six kids every year that stayed. And everybody else moved to another school. That's funny. So Peter is a freshman at Mineral Point High School now. Not happy about it. He is considered a popular kid, actually, though. He's on the track team.

So he's got friends there on his team. Yeah, but his friends in Illinois said he wasn't very happy about the move here. He did when they were kids. The family, the Zimmers here, he went to Germany a few different times to visit Hans' family. Yeah, my parents never took me to Europe. Fucking great. That's terrific. He said he never saw any resemblance between himself and his relatives,

and he started to notice other things that made him wonder, why don't I look like these people? Am I even German? Yeah, why Hans Zimmer, I don't appear German. And they never told him he was adopted. They just pretended like both kids were his. They pretended like both kids were theirs. It's all fine. When he was about 12, an aunt slipped up and mentioned that he was adopted. They just pretended like both kids were his. They pretended like both kids were theirs. It's all fine.

When he was about 12, an aunt slipped up and mentioned that he was adopted. Oh, Jesus. So then he started asking questions to his parents. And, you know, you keep asking questions. Eventually, they were like, yes, fine, you're adopted. There. How's that? You done?

You happy now? Happy now? Yeah. How's that feel? Woo-hoo. You and your brother. You happy, Ted Bundy? You happy nobody ruined my vagina? Does that make

you happy now that nobody destroyed me from the inside out? Does that make you happy that my taint was never ripped in two? Are you? Good. Now you know. There you go. Thanks. So, yeah, people said he was unhappy, but I mean, Christ Almighty, he went to Germany. They seemed to try to make him. They should have told him he was adopted,

but they seemed to try to make an effort here. He said from then on that relatives continually told him bad things about his birth mother. Oh, Jesus. Which they were trying to get him to be like, no, no, this is your family. They were bad people that let you go, and that's why you don't need to find them. And they were just

doing it in a very German way, I feel like. This is a very, like, just loud. Terrible people. Terrible people. Garbage. They warned him never to try to look for her. He said he felt the family treated him like Cinderella. They said that they were much more doting on the younger brother that they adopted, and they kind of treated him like garbage.

He did all the chores, and he had rats. He had rats, and yeah, the pumpkin turned him. It's pretty impressive, actually. The ball, you should see, he fucked a prince good. He gave it to him nice, right in the ass. I mean, just put it in and pound it away. It wasn't bad. It's the 60s and 70s and 80s, so you could do that.

He just drugged him a little. It was fine. Then Twisted Sister came out and made his glass slippers fashionable. That's it. He called his father, Peter did, Peter Zimmer here. So he was Paul. Now he's Peter Zimmer. Let's keep track of his names.

He called his father, quote, someone who puts on a nice, humble persona to the public behind closed doors. In my face, it was not pretty, he says. He was German, bro. Yeah. I mean, he's not going to be the warmest, cuddliest guy out there. Sorry. He's a German that was born during the fucking war. Yeah. Literally, he was born during World fucking war yeah literally he was born during

world war ii so he's not yeah he's not going to be the warmest cuddliest guy it was a tough time over there let's just say it feels like he's being judged every day well he says he was later on he'll say that he was abused and things like that but there was never there wasn't any evidence in the family of it nobody knew of it but i mean that doesn't mean it didn't happen that happens all the time people don't know. They hide abuse. It's not something you brag about. Afraid so.

You're not like, oh, this is my son, Peter. I stick things up his ass. You wouldn't believe. Boy, do I beat the living shit out of this kid. You would not believe, man. He comes home, gets a little mud on the carpet. I take him outside. I work him over with the antenna from my car. You would be surprised what an eight-year-old's asshole can accommodate.

It's pretty incredible. It's pretty incredible. The kid's a gamer. Let's just say that. Okay, that's terrible. That didn't happen to him. That's a fictional eight-year-old guy. That eight-year-old doesn't exist. No.

Thank God he does not exist here. So May 1983, the family's been in Wisconsin for about two months. It's at this point that the Mineral Point High School guidance counselor, not guidance counselor, one of the like counselor counselors, receives a call from a person, from another counselor at his school in Illinois, at Peter Zimmer School in Illinois, saying that this Peter Zimmer had told him that Zimmer was thinking about killing his whole family. Holy shit. So there's like, let me just tell you, just got a new kid there. You might want to have a chat with him because he's got some shit going on. Don't think he's serious, but he's got problems. He's mad at his family.

Might want to talk to him, basically. The counselor said that Peter had argued with his father about low grades, and his dad wanted him to get better grades and do better and be more German, basically, and more efficient. Like a father does. Like a father does. Like a decent father, actually. Also, too, a student had told teachers in the other school about it also.

A student had said that Peter told them that he was going to, quote, going to do away with his family, steal their car, and run away. That's what he said. That's his plan. That's his plan. That he's vocalizing. Yeah, he told a counselor that, and he told a kid that, saying he didn't want to move. He's like, I have low grades, my dad's breaking my balls, and now he's moving me somewhere else. I'm going to kill them all and take their cars.

It sounds like a 14-year-old jerk off. Nowadays, we take shit like that more seriously. A little bit, yeah. If I heard that when I was a kid, like one of my friends saying that, I'd be like, whatever, dude. In the 80s, it's like, sure you are. Yeah. Okay, shit, whatever.

Then you're going to run away with a bindle and a loaf of bread. Yeah, you're going to go with some beans down by the tracks and live with the hobos. Fuck out of here. What are you talking about? So, yeah. That's crazy that in the 80s, like, kids thought a lot more in the 80s. Yeah. Like, forethought was a lot more because you'd go, you'd tell your friend that and

your friend would be like, and then what? Well, then what are you going to do, you idiot? Yeah. Then what happens? And now kids say that and they're like, yeah, fucking yeah. That'll show up. And now it's like, yeah, I'll be famous for that minute though. I can check myself on Twitter, on the news.

Everybody will talk about it. Everybody will talk about that. Back then, I don't think that mattered. They wouldn't even have thought about that shit. You know what I mean? I don't know. Maybe they would have, but less anyway. I'm confident though. If I would have said some shit like that, a friend of mine at

least would have been like, and then what? Yeah. Where are you going to go? You fucking pussy. They would have made fun of you after that. Fucking pussy or faggot was coming out next. That was coming out next. You're not doing shit. You're a pussy. You can go down the line from there. Depending on how many friends are there or how many names you're going to be called.

That's it. So now let's skip ahead a little bit. Let's skip ahead a couple weeks. Let's skip ahead to May 24th of 1983. So this is 80s, 83. What's happening in 83? Bad things. Fucking nothing.

Bad things. Everyone's got a bowl cut. He's got to have? Bad things. Fucking nothing. Bad things. People, everyone's got a bowl cut. He's got to have a bowl cut. You know he's got a bowl cut. One of those bad ones that moves when you, yeah, yeah. Different fucking red hats. Devo, and you had a lot of that shit. Horrible music.

It was bad. Michael Jackson was big at that point. I think Madonna was just blowing up, or that was 84. She blew up, and Cyndi Lauper was getting big. She was getting some really fucking awful music. Oh, yeah, the 80s were bad. So anyway, we'll skip ahead a little bit. MTV was coming out soon, though.

It came out in 81, I think. Was it? Yeah, yeah, 83. Saved everybody. It was cruising in 83. So if you wanted to watch Van Halen jump 47,000 times in a row, you could do it there. Kurt Loder was killing it. Yes, he was.

Did he die? I think he's dead now die i think he's dead now i think he is dead but i'm not sure uh he may be our newest uh who's the guy that we've killed twice i think we've killed kurt loder many times too pretty sure kurt loder's dead though yeah i think he's dead yeah we'll call him whatever kurt loder's dead you don't like it fuck off so peter uh is now 15 years old uh he's, like we said, a freshman. We're going to skip ahead. He is taken into custody by police in Kansas City, Missouri, trying to use his father's credit card at a hotel.

Not good. Okay. He's driving the family car. They look in the car. They find six handguns in the car. Oh, Jesus. So he's 15 years old, out of state, with a car that's not his and a credit card that's not his with six handguns. That's not good. And also an 18-year-old kid that he picked up as a hitchhiker along the way.

What the hell? Okay, they find him there. They release the hitchhiker because he had nothing to do with the credit card or anything like that. So what ends up happening, the Kansas City police try calling the—because he tells the police that my dad – I'm on a trip and my dad gave me the credit card so I could use on the trip because he didn't have any money to give me. So he said I could use this. And, you know, I mean, it's a – I mean, it sounds far-fetched, but it's also possible. Yeah, plausible for sure. It's plausible.

Yeah, his dad might have said they won't give you any hassle. Just use my card. It's fine. So what they do is they try to – they call the family to verify. They want to call the dad and go, did you tell your son he could use my card. It's fine. So what they do is they call the family to verify. They want to call the dad and go, did you tell your son he could use this card? At least they know whether they have criminal charges at that point. Or if it's just some jerk off kid, they now have to transport back to Wisconsin like an asshole.

So they got no answer at the house. They called repeatedly, got no answer. So what they did was they said, well, we got to get an answer here. Let's call the Iowa County Sheriff's Department and have them go knock on the door and find out if this fucking kid's allowed to use this credit card or not. This is a lot of work. It's a lot of work for a kid with a credit card. They're down there like just Jesus Christ. It's Kansas City.

It's a Kansas City Police Department. They have other shit to do. It's not the middle of nowhere. They're like, we have cases. It's a city, god damn it. When police get there, they look around. They pretty quickly find some things awry. Number one, they find Hans Zimmer dead on the back porch of the house.

That's an issue. So they start looking around for the rest of the house. They find Kurt Loder very much alive. Very much alive, reporting live from the front yard. He is alive. He's 72. He's got a live interview with Twisted Sister, with Dee Snider of Twisted Sister. Don't worry about that. Pat Benatar's on later. It's got a live interview with Twisted Sister, with Dee Snider of Twisted Sister. Don't worry about that.

Pat Benatar's on later. It's fine. And he's much younger than all of them, yet somehow looks insanely older. His face is all fucked up. His face is all fucked up. So anyway, they also find, in addition to Hans, they find Sally's body, the mother, the wife, mother, Zimmer, they find her in the tool shed in the mother, the wife, mother Zimmer. They find her in the tool shed in the backyard.

Much further. On the property. And so they search farther and they find the younger brother. No, God damn it. They find the 10-year-old son also upstairs in his own bedroom, also dead. They find everybody. This was, I'll get into the details, but it's a horrible, horrible scene. Horrible scene.

Iowa County Deputy, a guy named John Fralick, said, quote, I've seen some horror movies, but I've never been in one before this. So he said it was horrible. They get there. Like I said, they find Hans. He's 48 years old. He's dead on the porch. Five gunshot wounds to Hans. Overkill.

You want to talk overkill? Let's talk about Sally. She'd been stabbed 25 times. Stabbed? 25 times and dragged to the shed. He didn't kill her out in the shed. He stabbed her up, dragged her out to the shed. Why? My theory is that he killed

her first, dragged her out to the shed so then he wouldn't tip Hans off and then he shot Hans. That's what I'm thinking happened here. Vicious attack on her though. Vicious. 25. They dispatched him with five quick lights. That's what I'm thinking happened here. Vicious attack on her, though. Vicious. 25. They dispatched him with five quick lights. Five quick. Yeah, that's a quick gun.

Also, too, that's the father. He might have been stronger physically. Got it. You don't want to attack him with a knife. That's up close and personal. You might keep your distance. Whereas the mother, you might think you can physically dominate her. And he did.

And he absolutely did. 25. And Perry, the son, the 10-year-old here, was stabbed more than 20 times also. For the 10-year-old, who had no part in this. Oh, my God. That's what I mean. I could see. I can't see it, but it's one of those things where if he's killing this one, killing that one,

he thinks he has to kill the brother, maybe take it a little easier on the brother. Yeah, some hatred for that boy. No, because he said that's what he was mad at. So, yeah, she was also the mother. Sally there was in the shed, and there was a rosary placed on her body also. Oh, Christ. So he made it weird. You know what I mean?

One of the first sheriffs on here was Bob Hill. He said it was one of the worst murder scenes he's ever witnessed in his life. He said that, quote, the knife went through the thickest part of the skull above the ear and completely penetrated the skull of Sally. Is that where the thickest part is? Apparently, that's the thickest part of the skull. How did he completely penetrated the skull of sally is that where the thickest part is apparently that's the thickest part of the skull i have no idea i assume because he's a sheriff and has dealt with this before probably seen an autopsy reporter too i'm assuming and i feel like he's showing off right there yeah he's like that's the thickest part of the skull i don't know if everybody knows this but right above the ear thickest part of the skull this

kind of pandas are actually the largest kind of pandas that actually eat the most. Right. Fuck you, Bob Hill. But Bob Hill, yeah, completely penetrated the skull. That's how much rage. That's anger. 25 stabs, one of which completely penetrating a skull. That's rage.

That is anger. And there is pictures of this, too. Really? Like, this is one that if it was a live show, I would have to keep a lot of them out because I think they're a little too, they're just bloody walls and smears and knives, the knife laying around bloody. My goodness. It's quite the scene, man.

It's quite the scene. It's horrible. Did he use the same knife on the mom and the son? Yes, same knife on both of those here. Horrible, too. Also, the little brother covered in defensive wounds. So it's not like he got him sleeping or something like that. The little guy fought back. He fought him. Yeah, this poor little kid, he defensive wounds. So it's not like he got him sleeping or something like that. He fought him.

Yeah, this poor little kid, he attacked him. It's horrible. He also said, Bob Hill said he was retired after 38 years of law enforcement later on and said, quote, that was the only crime scene I worked that gave me nightmares. I was young then and maybe that had something to do with it. But it was especially troubling to me because there was such a brutal crime because of the child, the younger brother. That really bothered me because it looked like he put up so much of a fight for his life, which he did, which was horrible. But here's the thing. I mean, apart from the fact that it's done, were the fucking nightmares constant even after they find the killer?

He said it was for years. It was the sight of it. I can't imagine still. He kept seeing it in his head over and over again. I guess. I guess. I have never seen a 10-year-old kid that brutally. Yeah.

I mean, I've seen some nasty shit from this show as far as crime scene photos go. But a 10-year-old kid in that 25 stab wounds. That does seem excessive. That seems like a bit much. Oh, man. That sounds brutal. Especially the fact that he fought wounds. That does seem excessive. That seems like a bit much. Oh, man, that sounds brutal. Especially the fact that he fought back, and that's got to be rough. It's crazy that after 35 years or 38 years, that's the only one.

Well, you're in Mineral Point, Wisconsin, too. But still, I'm sure you've seen some shit. But that's how bad it was. That's terrible. 25 stab wounds to a child. That's horrible. I mean, not every cop has seen that. That's a lot.

Now, the brother, Peter, obviously was immediately the suspect because he was gone. He wasn't there and neither was the car. Who lives in this house? Who's closest to them that would be angry? And then they get a phone call going, hey, you know anything about this kid? They're like, actually, we'd love to have a chat with him. Just love to. Yeah, so they said, police said, quote, one car was gone.

One member of the family was gone. He was nowhere to be found. And he just became immediately the suspect to look for. Also, they figured out that he left his bloody clothes in the bathroom, did this young man here, Peter Zimmer. And it appeared that he tried to wash the blood off in the shower, because there was blood all over the shower. He tried to take a bath or shower. He then stole his credit card, obviously, and took off fleeing there. Six handguns in the car, like we said. They did autopsies at the University Hospital and clinics in Madison. The counselor, the reaction from these people, the counselor that talked to him in Illinois was

freaked out, obviously. Raised the red flag. Yeah. I mean, he did the right thing. He did all he could do. He contacted every authority he could about it. But it wasn't a big deal back then. They just went, yeah, it's a kid running off the mouth. He said, quote, his dad was laying down the law to get performance out of him, which sounds terrible, by the way. But it was not to the extent that you would have expected something like this to happen. He was a nice kid going through a period of adolescence where they were not getting along, which is normal. You just don't normally butcher your whole family over it.

That's the thing. Eventually, you start disliking your parents. That's just how it goes. That's it. Especially sons and dads in teenage years, they clash sometimes. I'm already butting heads with mine. He's nine. That's what I mean, yeah.

The Iowa County Sheriff here, one of them said, quote, the neighbors said they were all good people, which is, I guess so. Another county sheriff. I'm terrified of my fucking son. Oh, you should be. God damn it. Be terrified of him. Watch out.

Lock your doors. Quote, It's an interesting case and probably one of the most heinous cases that we've had here in Iowa County. It sent some shivers through people in this and throughout the entire county. Obviously, right away is down there in Kansas and Missouri. They they seek to extradite him. Clearly, they did a preliminary hearing and they end up getting him back to Wisconsin where he will eventually plead no contest to the murders. Now, this is where we have to slow it down a drop here. He's 15 years old.

The laws are much different in 1983. That's bananas. He pleads no contest to the murders and he is, he's not – it's not a guilty – it's not guilty. He's not judged guilty at this point. He's judged, quote, delinquent because he is a youth, and this is a completely different thing. Holy shit. So they changed the laws after this. Right after him.

They changed the laws literally for – because of him. Yeah. But that's the thing that's going on back then. So there's not a lot under the law they can do with him, even. They can't even call him guilty. He's delinquent. Like he flushed an M-80 down the toilet bowl at school rather than butchering his entire family.

Like Crybaby. That's what I mean. He's a delinquent. He's a delinquent. He was kept at the Ethan Allen School. The Ethan Allen School. Isn't that a furniture place? I think so.

Yeah, well, they also keep delinquent children. Straighten out a fucking murderer. Apparently here. They keep him at the Ethan Allen School. It was wonderfully appropriated though. It was beautiful in there. The furniture, gorgeous. Corduroy couches. Gorgeous. It was wonderful

in there. You never saw anything like it before. Very tastefully decorated. Lots of oak. The lighting was good. The countertops are very nice in there. So never saw anything like it before. Very tastefully decorated. Lots of oak. The lighting was good. The countertops were very nice in there. So, yeah, he's charged as a juvenile pleading no contest means he can only be held. The state paid through the nose for all that shit. You had to. Ethan Allen doesn't

come cheap. He's not going to design your juvenile facility for nothing. He's got needs, Ethan Allen. He's got goddamn needs. He's got to pay for primetime advertising. He's got a mortgage. You never know. Maybe he's got goddamn needs. He's got to pay for primetime advertising. He's got a mortgage. You never know. Maybe he's got a podcast that nobody sells fucking ads on. Maybe that's his problem. So he has to goddamn outfit

children's prisons with fucking furniture, which might be what I'm just start doing next week. I don't know. That might be my next fucking job. In addition to all this shit, maybe I'll fucking design children's furniture. He's about to be very knowledgeable when it comes to sofas and recliners. Oh, you bet your ass.

I will give you a Davenport like nobody's business. I don't even know what a Davenport is. I just heard. James lounges for fucking everything. Ridiculous here. This plea, this no contest plea, means that he can only be held until he's 19. As soon as he turns 19, they have to let him go. This is crazy.

He is going to do basically a year per murder. Wow. Which is bat shit. I'm blown away. Bat shit. That could happen. That did happen a lot. It did happen.

Let's talk about it happening. I'm fucking shocked. You have to be. This is crazy time. This is stupid. It's insane. So he's there. You could rape a girl on a first date and you could slaughter your family.

Fine. Most you're doing is three and a half. Yeah, if you were a 15-year-old white kid, you could do anything. You could go around date raping people, killing your parents. And by 19, clean slate. Sealed records. Man. Have a good one.

And if you're Emmett Till, you don't even whistle. You get a story made up and they beat you until you're dead. You're done. It happens. It's fucking incredible. Hey, to be you until you're dead. You're done. It happens. Fucking incredible. To be a white kid in Wisconsin. Must be great. Anyway, there's court reviews every year, and the press follows up on them, and they

find out that he refused clinical counseling and therapy while he's in this facility. Refused it. Refused it. Refused it. Because he didn't have to take it. Because he's getting out in three and a half. By the time he's... out in three and a half. It's not a matter of if you come before the board with the appropriate credentials, we'll let you out. It's just when I turn 19.

Eventually that shit happens. Eat dicks, people. He just gave the old jerk off sign. Pow. Put one in the air. Through sploosh in the air. Yeah. Pow.

As you saw, it's exactly like that. Take that, bitches. Threw some sploosh on the Ethan Allen and walked out. Walked the fuck out. Jesus. You're going to need to replace that love seat. That Ottoman spoiled. Yeah.

So, yeah. After this case, though, the state lawmakers closed this whole thing quickly, this loophole on this whole deal here. But they did say that he read voraciously and carried on correspondence with the teens that he knew in Illinois and Wisconsin, like school friends. Why are those kids writing to him? I have no idea. Maybe he's just writing.

I know why. It's fascination. It's got to be. And if they knew him and liked him, they'd just be like, I don't know what happened. Fuck happened, dude. I don't know. Who knows? Dear Peter or Paul, what the fuck happened?

It's your fucking deal. Signed, Peter Paul Zimmer. Wisconsin friend. Signed, Wisconsin friend. Fucking tell me what happened. I want to hear something even worse about this whole thing here. Because he was never found guilty, here's a loophole in the law, he was only found delinquent, not guilty of killing them. Guess who's the sole heir to the Zimmer estate?

No, he gets everything. He's able to claim the Zimmer's estate as their sole heir. Holy dog shit. They also closed that loophole after this case. He tightened up the laws in Wisconsin. This is so stupid. Oh, it gets so much worse, man. Oh, my God.

His uncles ended up fighting the payout, and they ended up reaching a settlement with him where he ends up getting about $150,000 in the end of this whole deal. He does three and a half years and gets $150,000. Yep, out of this. He gets paid to do it. My Christ. He gets to keep a couple of custodial bank accounts his parents started for him, and a new trust was set up for his education and support.

He's going to get rent, tuition, and about $100 a month for four years unless he violates the agreement by returning to Wisconsin, Illinois, or Arizona, where the victim's relatives live. So he's getting paid. He gets a free... He's 19. He gets put out on the street with a free ride. He gets to move to another town. With room and board and school covered.

With plenty of money to do it. Wow. Room, board, school, everything's fine, covered. Unbelievable. But at 19, feeling that fucking carefree and all that money, it's gone in a second. Well, I mean, he only gets $100 a month in living expenses, but he gets the other shit But he's also got $150,000. Well, no, no.

That's altogether what he ends up getting out of the whole thing. But still, if I was 19 and had my room and board and school paid for and $100, I'd be fucking thrilled. I'd go get a job one day a week somewhere. I'd be fine at 19. I don't have to listen to old Hans bark at me anymore. Nope. Everything's fine.

You killed everybody. If you're into that, that's where you can relive those memories over and over again here. This is intense. Yeah. Outrage. There was a lot of outrage in the state over this here. Now the law allows juveniles as young as 14 to be charged as adults in certain homicides,

like multiple homicides and things like that. Even when they're not black. Even when they're not black. Absolutely. It's true. And also, it prevents anyone guilty of homicide from collecting inheritance or other benefits, including if they're found delinquent and not guilty. Good work, Wisconsin.

Yeah. During his time at Ethan Allen, he said he had nightmares about the killings. He would wake up screaming and crying. It's so hard to take that shit serious now. Oh, come on. Ethan Allen. During his time at Ethan Allen, he was the top salesman.

No, no, no. He sold some chaise lounges, and then he wrote in his diary, and he had nightmares. This is crazy. Okay, go. He said he had nightmares, would always wake up screaming and crying. He apparently struck up a friendship with a 19-year-old counseling volunteer named Belinda. Oh, boy.

Oh, Belinda, a nice young lady for him. And it's just the dream guy here. Yeah. Dream guy, obviously. You know, he's murdered his whole family. At least you know where he's been the last couple years. Maybe that's what it is over there. There's no hiding that shit from her.

There's no hiding that shit at all. She's the one. She's trying to help you. You know what I mean? So yeah, there's no hiding at all. She said she wasn't discouraged, like I said about his past. She said, quote, he was charming. I was like his princess. Okay? What? If your princess butchered his whole family.

Right. It's exactly like a princess. Ridiculous. Wow. Cinderella had it wrong. He was Cinderella. He had it all wrong here. He knew there would be a princess involved at some point here.

Insane. She said, quote, I didn't think about it that much. I mean, I concentrated on who he is now. I believe in second chances. That's ridiculous. Yeah. That's nice. That's nice and all.

Adopt a puppy. How about that? There's a second chance for you. So recent. You don't need a second. There's no time yet for a second chance. No. You have to let that man at least get the... His first chance was way too much. Right. He's still got blood on his arm. I would say so. Yeah, that shower. So as soon as he's released

when he's 19, they start dating together, him and Belinda, and they have a baby together. Oh, my Christ. Would you look at that? They have a daughter named Nicole who grows up not knowing a thing about the fact that her father murdered his whole family in a horrible, horrific way. You don't want to tell that to your daughter, do you? No.

She does find out about it, though. Yeah. And later on, she has some shit to say about it though yeah and uh later on it's pretty it's it's she has some shit to say about it through google or what the fuck well i mean you could find out through google but she finds out a different way later on oh boy in a worse way oh boy we'll find out here so he gets out he's got a new life now uh like like we said he's uh there's no trial he was found delinquent so 19 years years old. He never expressed remorse. Nothing.

He never explained his crimes. What? He basically sat there and went, do what you will. I know you can only hold me until I'm 19. So fuck it. I don't care. I'm not doing counseling. I'm not going to tell you I did it.

I'm not going to tell you why I did it. I'm not going to say I'm sorry. I'm going to fuck my counselor. He dicks. Yeah. Which is a pretty ballsy stance for a 15 year old. Truly. To be like, that's like all gangster shit. He dicks. Yeah. Which is a pretty ballsy stance for a 15 year old. Truly. To like be like, that's like all gangster shit.

That's unbelievable. That's like you get like a mob guy in there and he's like, I ain't telling you nothing. Fuck you. It's like, it's like Joe Pesci fucking in Goodfellas explaining his whole, you know. Oh, what do you mean? I can tell you nothing. That's what I'm going to tell you. Bing, bang, boom.

Bing, bang, boom. Next thing you know. You saw the paper. Anthony, my head was out like this. I don't know'm going to tell you. Bing, bang, boom. Bing, bang, boom. Next thing you know. You saw the paper. Anthony, my head was out like this. I don't know why that makes me laugh. Then I woke up and I was like, what are you doing here? Did I tell you to go fuck your mother? I wake up in the weeds out in Secaucus.

Then I tell you to go fuck your mother. I love that that's a funny story. That's terrific, man. So these guys here, so he's out and about uh we said he's got money you know he's got his shit paid for and by the way tupac you don't not give a fuck this kid does not give a fuck this is like a new gangster level of gangster yeah this is insane he gets yeah man that's absolutely he's got money in his pocket does not give a fuck 19 years old guess what else he has?

Oh, boy. New name. Really? Yeah, you're not going to call him Peter Zimmer anymore. Oh, boy. He needs a new start and a fresh name. Otherwise, people might know he's a fucking monster. So he goes by Jovan Anton Collier, which sounds like a black guy.

That does absolutely not sound like a white kid from Wisconsin. Jovan Anton Collier. If I told you that Joe Vaughn Anton Collier is looking for you, you'd be like, who the fuck? That's a problem. That sounds like a problem. For sure. Yeah. That sounds like it's going to be an issue.

This guy, same shit. Yeah. So he's Joe Vaughn. He goes by Joe. Yeah. So he goes by Joe Collier is his new name here. He keeps Peter Zimmer hidden in sealed juvenile files and things like that. This is shit that's not easy to find.

And also, there's a lot of old newspaper clips. But unless you know what to look for, you're not going to just be perusing and find that. It's not going to be connected. He says, quote, I was successfully reinvented. Well, good for you. If anyone deserves a fresh start in life, it's you, sir. Anyone at all deserves a fresh start. Belinda got him you, sir. Anyone at all deserves a fresh start. Belinda got him that second chance.

Oh, Belinda gave him something. She gave him something. And a daughter. He spends his first few weeks of freedom, gets out, immediately buys a ticket down to Florida to go hang out on the beach for a while. He spends his first few weeks on the beach in Fort Lauderdale meeting girls. Oh, my God. That's what he does.

Right away. See? He does not give a fuck. He said, quote, I had to re-socialize. Yeah, of course. Yeah, you did. What about Belinda? You've got Belinda, bro. Yeah, no. So, yeah, a year after he gets out, he ends up with the daughter from Belinda, the daughter Nicole.

He later tells people that he got a minister's daughter pregnant while at Ethan Allen, which is possible, but the girl, I guess, would have been conceived soon after Collier left the facility. So it's like, yeah, he didn't get her pregnant while he was there, but he got her pregnant when he got out pretty quickly, and it was a minister's daughter. So, yeah, that's nice.

I'm sure he was very proud, very happy. If he could, he would have sent her to a home like this poor kid's mother, I'm sure. I'm sure here. So now a couple of years later, he goes through some time. That was 87 he gets out. He's attending college in St. Louis. He served in the Air National Guard for eight months in 1990.

What? Have a gun. Until they found out what his real name is? No, he just did. Have a gun. How did they let him in? Yeah, I have no idea how they let him in here. But yeah, he was in there for eight months.

He was at the Lambert St. Louis International Airport, according to the archives here. He told people that he was in the Navy until 2005, but he was never in the Navy and definitely not until 2005 because he wasn't in it at all. So yeah, the Navy, that was a load of shit there. You mean he's a lying piece of shit? Pretty much from here on out, everything he says is a it at all. So, yeah, the Navy, that was a load of shit there. You mean he's a lying piece of shit? Pretty much from here on out, everything he says is a lie. Awesome. He is the father of lies, this guy here. So he said he was married in a Jewish wedding at that point in 1993.

That lasted less than a year. The official divorce came in 95. The wife here won a default judgment from his first marriage. He meets his next wife, Leah, or Lee, I'm not sure, at a company picnic when they both worked at a newspaper printing plant. Classy. Absolutely. They hit it off fast. They get married in 1994.

Jesus. They move to her home state of Indiana. Oh, on the fast track. Jesus. Living in Indiana. They have a son home state of Indiana. Ugh. Oh, on the fast track. Jesus. Living in Indiana. They have a son together. My Christ. Child number three.

Yeah, he starts at two. Two. He's got two kids. What about the girl from the prison? That's Nicole. Oh, okay. All right. I got you.

That's the minister. Yeah, that's the minister. Belinda is the minister's daughter. Got it. Okay. So, yeah. So, now he's got two kids. He's got a son, a daughter.

Okay. They live in... He hasn't seen the daughter, obviously, because of that. They live in Indiana, which the whole thing, it doesn't go well, too. He starts up a couple of construction companies, and one of them wound up in bankruptcy. And also his wife here, Leah, had a personal training business that also failed. Of course. Like they always do. It's not going well is the basic thing here.

This is a bad thing. They moved to Indiana, had a kid, and everybody loses their jobs. So not ideal what you're going for here. But honestly, for a guy that butchered his family like five years ago. Pretty solid. Pretty fucking solid. That's not a bad. He's doing pretty goddamn well for himself at this point here.

There's a guy named Nick Chocos or Chochos? Chuchos? I don't know how the hell you want to say this. Chachos. He knew Collier and Leah in Indiana for about 10 years. This guy says this Nick said he hired Joe as a subcontractor a few times.

They also hung out socially. He kind of knew him. He said he seemed like a decent guy. Didn't know anything about his past. He just told him. Knew nothing. Nope. He just said he moved here from over there. Here's his wife and kid, and that's it.

You know what I mean? What are you going to... I don't know. Who are you going to question him? Well, you can't just go to everybody. So, where are you from? That's cool. Did you kill your whole family?

Everybody you meet, do you ask them that? No, it's very rare. Do you kill your whole family? you don't tell everybody you meet do you ask them that so when you're 15 kill your whole family would you like inherit their trust and get out of that way i almost never ask but it's rare that i do and i should start honestly i should start and honestly uh ladies out there after this story you'll start asking people that a lot more questions you're going to start asking more questions and men too for that matter but uh mostly ladies because that's what the story is about here. So, yeah. So, anyway, like I said, they had a son. Second wife didn't know about his past with the murder at first, but she found out later and agreed to stay with him anyway.

Oh, my God. So, she's down for some shit. That's ride or die right there. You find out after, and you're like, sure, I'll stick around. But you're financially strapped into some Indiana trailer with a young son and this guy. And your personal trainer business just shit the bed. Yeah, that's not the point to get morally high and mighty on somebody at that point. It's like, that's great.

Get a job now and help me pay for this fucking kid and the mortgage because I have a mortgage. So he admits that he never really found, he never volunteered the truth, never, to anybody. Like, that was never, it was never like, oh, let me tell you about how I grew up, that sort of thing. He said, quote, that would pretty much be an automatic deal breaker, don't you think? Yeah, well, people might have the right to know that kind of shit

and decide whether that's a deal breaker or not. Belinda, it wasn't a deal breaker to her. According to friends, he said he was orphaned when his parents were killed in a car accident by a drunk driver. Wow. Which he got, he put out like the most sympathetic story. My parents were coming home and a drunk driver killed them. It sounds.

Christmas evening. Happens all the time. You'd hear that and go, oh, that's terrible. Holy shit. I'm so sorry, man. You poor guy. This guy probably at some point in time got sympathy sex

for killing his parents. At minimum, he got sympathy blowy. That's exactly right. For killing his parents. That's what a fucking lunatic this guy is. He would say he even took his Indiana family to visit his parents' graves.

And he would cry and place flowers on them and everything. Oh, yeah. I guess on the tombstone it didn't say, murdered by their adopted son, Peter slash Paul slash Jovan Anton Collier. Jesus Christ, here. This is nuts. Yeah. So his second marriage is starting to fall apart in Indiana, as you might imagine.

And he starts, once that kind of falls apart, he says, I'm taking off. New life again. Yeah. Clean slate again. Leaving both kids behind, everything else. Fuck everybody. He's a real good guy, this one here. Yeah, no doubt.

He starts, he goes down to St. Petersburg, Florida. Yeah. To start to say, this Florida, this is what we're talking about. He's like, where can I go where no one will care Florida I'll be the least I'll be the least asshole there I'll be the least dangerous person in Florida

Jesus Christ people on crocodile eat people's faces that's fine it's still it's still better than a fucking place so he he meets a lady down there as he often does he has no problem meeting women. No doubt. For a guy who went away at 15, that's pretty formative years of learning how to talk to

girls and shit like that. Usually, if you don't get it then, if you're quiet or you don't talk to girls in high school, then it's going to happen maybe later. You're going to have to be in your 20s, blah, blah, blah. This guy pops out of this place just ready to party, looking for some tail. He doesn't give a shit, this guy here. He found out he does not like tugging. He doesn't.

Apparently not. So he meets a woman, a nice woman, a second grade teacher he meets named Candy Williams. He meets her on a beach in St. Petersburg in late 2005. Where she was combing for pennies. I think she was. Yeah, she was totally doing the, yeah. The type of, but you know what though? I can't believe, I'm telling you right now, I've seen pictures.

These women are beautiful. What the fuck? I mean, I'm not judging whatever, but they're women that have options. They're not like. They're not beholden to a murderer. He didn't find, no, he didn't find some like woman with like an affliction or something. She felt bad about herself. He didn't find those women.

He found confident women that were decent, pretty women that had things going for him that would have whatever. And he somehow tapped into something. I don't understand. And then destroyed it. They start a romance up pretty much immediately. Right from the right from the beach. She says, quote, he was instantly likable. He just knew what to say.

He was slick and charming. So, I mean, that's who he is. I can't believe. Like a murderer. You know, like a murderer. Well, that would be like a Ted Bundy murderer, not somebody who just blitzes his family with a fucking 25 stab wounds and gunshots and everything else here. You know what?

Maybe he could have talked to his dad if he's so slick with the tongue. Talk to your dad a little bit about the grades. Make some shit up. Buy yourself some time. Be bopping scat around a little bit. Bargain and stay in the house. Christ almighty. Jesus. So she said that they had a lot in common, Candy says. They had a lot in common. They both recently moved to

St. Petersburg. They're both trying to build a new life. She says, I was looking for someone to share my life with. I was just missing a significant other that I really wanted. So she's out there looking for someone, which is never a good idea. Never. Never a good idea. Don't look.

Don't look. You'll find them when you don't. This. Yeah. She said that they bonded over having dealt with loss in their lives. She said, quote, I've been through a lot of tough times, lots of deaths in my family. That first day at the beach, he told me his parents had been killed in a tragic car accident by drunk drivers. He had always felt like he was missing something.

And so did she. Drunk drivers, plural. There was multiple. They hit him from both sides. It was a coordinated attack. It was amazing. Yeah, it was incredible. We're under attack.

Two drunks. They're like, you got him from the right and I'll get him from the left. When he pulls up at the light, we're do the other left oh fuck wrong card jesus so they're doing this so he's using her pain yeah to this is what con artists and horrible people do they use your pain right to get closer to you right like it's that this is what sick people do uh yeah so within three months he moved in with her. Moved in with her. She is in trouble.

Three months, and they plan to get married. He said he was divorced and had a son in Indiana. Three months, and she's ready to marry. She's ready to marry him. They're moving. She's looking for someone, and he's someone that they share the same tragedy. That's the thing thing it's that thing

of like she he tapped into whatever that darkness is of hers that she has and sure and he somehow got inside of her head a predator it's he's an absolute predator absolutely here uh she said he said he was divorced he had a son in indiana and flew there several times to visit him uh now that's what she thought yeah later on but because he's still married during this time to Lee. Later on here, she finds out that he's actually going back and forth to spend weekends with his wife to try to reconcile that situation. So he's got multiple plates spinning. Good Christ.

All of this while keeping his secret murderous past. This is a lot to deal with. This is too much. How do you deal with that as a person? How does he go to sleep at night? He has to go through a checklist. I don't mean how does he sleep with himself. Does he feel bad?

Because clearly he doesn't. I mean it must take him forever to get to sleep just running through the checklist of shit that he has to remember. Of lies. And I told her this and that one that. And keep her away from my court records. Just in case she wakes me up in the middle of the night and the first thing I blurt out is my fucking wife's name. Yeah, or, you know, the knife needs to go farther than my mother's skull

or something of that nature, which is a very odd thing to yell. You wouldn't expect. Die, Peter, die. Die, Peter. Oh, no, he's Peter. It'd be Perry. Perry. Perry.

Was it Perry? Perry and Hans is the dad. Perry's the little brother. God damn it, there's Peter. Perry. Perry. Perry. Was it Perry? Perry and Hans is the dad. Perry's a little brother. God damn it, there's too many names. Unbelievable. So she found out about that, and this leads to a breakup, but it doesn't last for long. She says that he talked his way back into her good graces. Fuck.

He admitted that he had a daughter, also a daughter with a different woman in Wisconsin, but that he wasn't seeing that woman anymore, so that shouldn't really be a big deal breaker here. He said, quote, I honestly had abandonment issues my entire life. I never felt like I was a part of anything. I was reminded that and that I was adopted a lot. I was told my mother was a whore. You know, she's a horrible person, trailer, trash, blah, blah, blah. So he's trying to.

Yeah, this is what he told her. This is like he. You know, the story. This is the story. This is the story. This is his sob story here. So at this point, we'll go back to his mother and what she did after she had him at the orphanage. I think that's an interesting story, and it actually is going to meet up here. She leaves home after her delivery.

Gee, if you force your pregnant 18- 18 year old daughter into a fucking convent right to care for development developmentally disabled people and then give her baby away she might run away afterwards she might be fucked up she might not want to be in your house anymore and she doesn't she runs away and marries a musician uh i like her style like 1969 she found a guitarist yeah she's like screw it she has another son within two years. She had a steady income and kept the house for the band and all that sort of thing. She had a hard time being an adult at that point in time. As you do when you're 20. That's the thing.

She's 20. She and her husband and the child moved to Georgia in 1974. But by 1980, they divorced. And a few years later, she switches everything up from being like, you know, having the band flop at her house and shit like that. Instead, she marries a corporate executive. Wow. At that point. She went the other way.

Total. It's the 80s. She went, you know, even Jefferson Airplane turned into Starship, and she put shoulder pads on back then. You know what I'm saying? She was singing about the fucking white rabbit and mushrooms and pills and all this shit. And now we built this city. Next thing you know, it's rebuilt. She's sitting there with big shoulder pads on, looking like she's going to try to get a job at American Express.

It's like, what the fuck happened to you? Jesus Christ. So this lady went the same way in the 80s. So, they get divorced, though, after a little while. By the early 1990s, she didn't feel good about herself. She felt old and that sort of thing. So, she went to get an eye lift at a plastic surgeon. She begins dating the plastic surgeon.

My goodness. She's stepping in here and there. And they get married in 1995. They have a huge elaborate theme wedding. They have a huge, elaborate theme wedding. It's a huge, you know, they spend a fortune on it. So she's living it up now. But this is the dream of what you hope. Like, if there's every adopted kid

out there is thinking, my parents are nice people, live in this big house, and I'm going to see them, and you know, blah, blah, blah. It never works out like that, obviously, here. It's usually someone who is, you know, a crackhead, or got a lot of problems or whatever no this is like it's jenny from forrest gump is your mom this is he the dream was actually there yeah for him so uh anyway i catch up to her later she's a waitress with aids like what the hell happened what happened mom so she marries rob zaworski that's why her name's Zaworski.

He's a fourth-generation physician. Oh, my God. So that's a blue-blooded, rich son of a bitch here. He's an accomplished mountain climber, scuba diver, and Civil War historian. That's a theme wedding. A lot of money. A lot of money. No, the first one was a theme wedding.

It wasn't this one? No, no, no. They lived in a wooded hilltop in suburban Atlanta. They went to Switzerland, Egypt, the first one was a theme wedding. It wasn't this one? No, no, no. They lived in a wooded hilltop in suburban Atlanta. They went to Switzerland, Egypt, the Caribbean. Holy shit! She was a regional sales manager for a countertop maker during some really good years, apparently,

for... For Micah? For construction and for Micah, I guess. Yeah, that's the best way to put it. She's killing the game on for Micah. She's killing the for Micah game, dude. It's huge. It's huge, man. It's big time. In her office, she has a framed front page of the Atlanta newspaper showing her toasting

the returns of a 2005 vote to incorporate her suburb. And it's another picture of her with Buzz Aldrin at the Explorers Club in New York. Also, her personal invitation to the Atlanta premiere of Animal House from her old friend John Belushi. Get the fuck out of here. She knew John Belushi, this lady. Wow. Yeah.

She said, quote, we've had fabulous lives. So, yeah. But she said she never forgot Paul. Yeah. She'd see on TV shows people reuniting with their birth mothers, and she always felt bad about it. She always wondered. She had some news coverage of that little boy that slaughtered his fucking family.

No fucking clue. No clue. She doesn't even know what his name is. Wow. She knows nothing. She would catch the news coverage of that little boy that slaughtered his fucking family. No fucking clue. No clue. She doesn't even know what his name is. Wow. She knows nothing. She just knows Paul the baby that got taken away. Anybody know where Paul the baby is? Like, that's all she's got. At 15 he looks a little different. Yeah. It's interesting, man. So she didn't know where to even start to find him

or anything like that, so she didn't do anything until 2004. She read there was a change in an Illinois law that would allow birth mothers to petition for a confidential intermediary to find their kids here. So she tries to get someone to find them. They open up the Catholic charity records for her for this, that the adoption went through. Her husband had some doubts about it. A little bit.

I'm sure he's like, this is just what I need now. This is perfect. It's like the kid's like 20 years old at this point or, you know, like 24 years old. And he's a fourth generation physician. He doesn't want it. He's like 36 years old. He's like, I don't want this guy around. I don't need this shit.

Yeah, I don't need this shit. We have a nice life. We're hanging out with Buzz Aldrin. We did coke off of Hooker's tits with John Belushi. Well, I didn't, but you did, and you have the memories. She did. He came later. He's a plastic surgeon.

He said, I was supportive but cautious. I warned her. You may not like what you find. You might find out he's a mass murderer. Leave well enough alone. What? That's what he said. He's a genius.

She sent off $450 in a form that was like the required fee to the Illinois Adoption Registry. About a year later, she gets a call from Leah Collier, his ex-wife here, who said she thought her husband Joe might be Zaworski's son. She said she felt bad that he lost his adoptive parents, and she thought it was important for their own son to have a family medical history, which makes sense. So she registered Joe on some adoption search sites and it hit with her inquiry. And so Leah goes back. So she's the kind of intermediary here. Leah goes and puts her husband on the line who is back and forth to Florida with Candy Williams and her going back and forth. Another lie here. He talks to her. back and forth, living another lie here.

He talks to her. They agreed to keep in contact. The next day, she got a faxed picture of his driver's license from Illinois, and she thought he was handsome. She said, quote, to put a face on my son. He was three days old when I gave him up. Now he's real. It knocked me over like a truck hit me.

Oh, sure. Yeah. She said, oh, my God, there's going to be an end to this pain. They start exchanging emails. Oh my God. Her first email to him was like a mother who lost their child. She said, bear with me. I'm trying to breathe

while I cry and type at the same time. For the past 37 years, I've never allowed myself to fantasize about meeting you for more than a moment at a time. Did you feel me sending your prayer every July 7th? I've always kept to myself on your birthday every year, too deep in my own sense of loss to be sociable with anyone. So she sends him that.

So anyway, this was when he was going back to Florida soon. So he said, hey, she lived in Atlanta. Maybe I'll meet you in Atlanta on the way down to Florida, and we can get together. Pop by. Yes. Yeah, the husband here, Rob, her husband, the rich guy, he's saying, let's calm down. Pump the brakes, sweetie. Let's not make this too fast.

She said, no, no, no. Fuck that. We're meeting this kid. She said, I had emotional blinders on. I didn't want anyone to tell me, be careful, go slowly. So they arranged to meet at a hotel near her home. Oh, Jesus. Rob stayed outside and watched from the car to make sure that this guy didn't strangle her to death, I assume.

She said, it was like a soap opera. I saw him across the lobby, and he got out of the elevator. We locked eyes. I rushed over there. I loved him the moment I saw him. I'm his mother. Oh, boy. Yeah.

So she's like any mother would be. That's got to be a huge rush of emotion for a mother, especially one. It's not like she was a crackhead and was like, I don't want that kid, and then felt bad about it five years later. She always felt bad about it. She wanted the kid in the first place.

She was forced to give it up, and so she felt terrible. She's an adult. She was old enough to have a child. That's the thing, yeah, but her family, no, no, no. Now, the husband here was, you know, was concerned. He said he, you know, he had an inkling that something wasn't adding up, but he just, you know, she was so into it. She said she had emotional blinders on, you know, that sort of thing. So what are you going to do here? He said he was moving to Florida ahead of his family because he said that Lee and the daughter were moving with him. And it wasn't.

He was just going down there to keep hooking up with Candy. So it's nuts. He said that he was going to get things ready for him, but he was towing a utility trailer piled with what looked like all of it, everything he owned. The Rob Zaworski said, quote, he looked like a swinging bachelor who's got all his stuff and he's out there. Yeah, he was divorcing his wife. What a goofy phrase. A swinging bachelor. Swinging bachelor.

I don't know why he couldn't just say I'm in the middle of a divorce. How hard is that? She's had multiple divorces. She's fine. She would have been like, oh, I'm sorry. And she would have felt worse for him. For sure. She had a little more sympathy.

But he can't. More sympathy, puss, too. He's such a fucking narcissist, this guy, too, though. That's the other thing. This reminds me so much though. That's the other thing. This reminds me so much of my dad's life. My dad's mom. He was right.

It's so fucked up. My dad's mom had him and she was 14. They gave him up for adoption, but didn't give him up for adoption. Gave him to her sister who was old school. It's fucked up. And then she went and had two more kids after him. Did they tell him that the other one was his mother? Not until way later.

That's what I mean. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no. They lied to him. Yeah, yeah. Forever. Yeah, that's what they used to do back then. And then he found out later. Yeah, that's so common back then.

So she named him Jerry. Yeah. Then the next two kids she had named them both Jerry. And the men that she fucked to make these children, all their names were Jerry. Keep Jerry away from this woman. That's messed up. It's fucked up. So anyway, he goes down.

Candy Williams finds out that she actually found somebody else down there named Jerry. No, boy. I'm just kidding. She didn't find anyone. And then my dad fucking lived in Florida, too. This is so fucking. The look on your face was like, really? No, definitely not.

I was about to call my dad and ask him if he ever married a man to your Candy or whatever the fuck. So Candy Williams said that Collier here, Joe, had been spending a fair amount of time in Atlanta with his birth mother. Meanwhile, he was spending some time there and also some time in Indiana

with the other woman. So they had also a DNA test just to make sure that this was all not just some screwed up paperwork or anything like that. He says, Joe Collier, Paul, Peter Zimmer, Collier, Javon, Anton, whatever. Joe Peter, Paul. Fuck. He says, quote, I figured she was looking for a kidney or the blocks had fallen out

from under her trailer, which I thought was funny. Holy shit. He said that her expectations would be that she'd be looking for some kind of handout and then she found out that she's a successful real estate agent married to a fourth generation plastic surgeon. She needs nothing from you, you fuck. Oh shit.

He said we had a nice reunion. For 37 years I didn't know where I came from except from what people told me like your mother's a whore. You hear that as a kid. It sticks with you and you believe it. Yeah, that's a strong statement. Hey kid, your mother's a whore.

Okay. From a kid on the playground, it's one thing. But from your dad, that's another thing. From an uncle who means it. Yeah, that's a little different here. That's a little different. He said that he assumed his mother knew his history because she had hired a private detective to help find him. In fact, she didn't know shit about the murders.

The private detective wasn't that great, apparently. They get along great, mother and son. He ends up moving into her Atlanta home for a while while he's working for Noble Investments Group as a project supervisor, which is interesting. He's a fucking supervisor. Yeah, a job that landed him in Milwaukee on the Hyatt Regency Milwaukee Hotel renovation team for a while in 2008.

She brought him around to her country club and introduced her to the rest of the family and friends, brought him along for her mother's 80th birthday celebration in Chicago, took him in. You're part of the family now. This motherfucker murdered a family. Now he's singing Constance Frye? What the fuck?

Now he gets another family and women and kids and families. He's got family in his back pocket for later. He keeps it for later. He's got family coming out of his ears. It's ridiculous, man. It's fucking nuts. But he loved it. He said, there were people there who looked like me. It was really neat. Well, yeah. It's fucking nuts. But he loved that he said, there were people there who looked like

me. It was really neat. Well, yeah. Obviously, Jesus Christ. Fucking your blood family, dickhead. Absolutely. That's how it works. It's kind of the fucking idea. Definitely. So, April 2008, she obviously has no idea still about his past. She thinks his parents died somewhere. That's what he told her. That's what he's been

telling everyone. Killed in an accident. Oh, that's so sad. One night in April 2008, a phone call from his now ex-wife. He finally got a divorce. She calls the parents here, Linda and Rob, stepfather and mother. Rob takes the

call. Lee Collier, the ex-wife now, tells him that he should know that as a boy, your Joe Collier there killed his whole family. Oh, boy. Just to let you know that that's a thing. Now she's getting vindictive on him.

Oh, boy. And she's like, I wanted him to know his family, and now they're going to hate him. Yeah, yeah. But they should know. She should have told him that shit a while ago. Fuck yeah. When she talked to him the first time. Why did you store that one in your pocket, honey?

I think my husband is your adopted son. That's nice. Do you know that he slaughtered a whole family? Right. And it's your fault because you put him up for adoption. If they wouldn't have adopted him, they'd still be alive. So thanks your mom. Thanks a lot, Catholic guilt. Perfect assholes. Jesus Christ.

From Podcast One and the Voice of the American people, it's time to fight back with Barbara Boxer. It's so hard, I think, for the average person who has to get up in the morning to follow this stuff. This is a problem solvable. All we have to do is look around the world. They have made a difference in Florida.

It's unbelievable. Listen free and subscribe to Fight Back with Barbara Boxer exclusively on Apple Podcasts, PodcastOne.com, and the PodcastOne app. If you love the show, share it with a friend and leave us a rating and review. Yeah, she said that she tells him the deal. She says that

he changed his name to Jovan Collier. This was, you know, this was a huge deal. This was all this all happened pre-internet, all the other stuff. So there's the records aren't as much as if something happened now. Sure. Yeah. So he didn't know what to do at this point. He didn't tell Linda at first.

He wanted to be sure. So he hired a private investigator to look into it and corroborated everything that he heard with actual court records and documents and shit. He said, quote, it didn't surprise me. My concern was how in the hell am I going to tell Linda? It's odd that it didn't surprise me. I expected him to be a murderer. Who expects people to be a triple murderer?

I'm always surprised when someone kills three people. It's always surprising. Especially if I know the person. I'm always going to be surprised by that. How much tragedy has this guy experienced? He's like, I expect most people to be multiple murderers, but this one here. Holy shit here. So anyway, they hire this, and like I said, Rob and Martinelli's the investigator that

digs into the past. Martinelli says, quote, there was just something different about him. The birth mother's husband thought there needed to be some background checked out. And apparently, yeah, definitely here. So one night, Rob comes home and Linda's in the living room hanging out there reading. And he's like, what do I do now here? I have to tell him something. So she says, I have to talk to you about something.

She thinks it's something horrible, like he's dying or he's divorcing her or whatever the hell may be. She never even thought about Joe, anything about him that never even crossed her mind uh she said uh once she was told she said i backed up into the chair i didn't believe it but rob shows her all the records shows her the reports the details when you hear a knife penetrated through skull 25 stab wounds dragged out to a shed. Old Bob's quote of the thickest part of the skull. Yeah. Also, it said in the report, Wisconsin had an official warning that the birth mother ought to fear for her life. Oh, Jesus.

In the morning from psychiatrists. Official warning. Yeah, from the state's official, like, watch out, because she's next on this guy's list here. She became very afraid. She freaked out, obviously. He was staying there at the time with them. He's upstairs. But he wasn't home that night, so she freaked the fuck out.

She didn't want to confront him, so she tried to act normal, basically, and figure out what to do next. How do you act normal? Hey, Joe. How's it going? Good morning. How are you feeling? Good.

All right. Can I get you some breakfast? I'm going to go now for the day. We're going to go on vacation for, I don't know, how long are you going to be alive for? The next 30, 40 years? We're going to go ahead and take off for that amount of time. Ah, Jesus. She said, quote, we did some pretty great acting.

She said she continued to cook for him. Says she. She said she would talk to him about his job and do his laundry and just act like everything was fine. She's personally 37 years old. What are you cooking for him to do his fucking laundry for? Make him do his own goddamn laundry. Because she's trying to save her life? Yeah.

But they also locked their bedrooms doors and started sleeping with guns under their pillows. Yeah, fuck yeah they did. Every day asking him like a nurse about his rage level. Yeah. On a scale of 1 to 10, how rageful are you today? Just asking that four or five times a day. How are you feeling now? Just give me a color. He stubs his toe and she's like, did I raise the rage? Purple, is that top to purple? What are you at, seven? What do you think here? So all of a sudden out of nowhere, he announces that he's moving into an apartment that Monday, and he's leaving. They knew he was lying.

He said he was going to do this a bunch of times, but something would happen at the last minute, and he would remain- At the house. And there. Free room and board and stuff. Big house being cooked for. I was going to get an apartment today, but then I found out when I pay rent, I have to do my own fucking laundry. Good news. I'm going to stay here apartment today But then I found out when I pay rent I have to do my own fucking laundry Good news, I'm going to stay here

So she said she was so scared She had to do something So one Friday she got all of his shit All of Joe's shit and stuffed it all into the car Everything he owned She called him to say she was downtown and wanted to meet him for lunch At the hotel that he worked at In public

That's the thing, at the end of lunch worked in public. Yeah, that's the thing. At the end of lunch, she told him she said, Joe, I know you'll be getting back late on Sunday. So I brought all of your things down with me. You can put them in your car now. So it will be much easier for you to move into your new place on Monday. She tried to be like, I'm helping you. In other words, lending a hand.

Fuck out of my house. Fuck out of here. Yeah. He didn't say anything. He just gave an uncomfortable thanks, and then that was about it. By the way, they went home and changed all the locks of the house that day.

That was Locksmith coming over at about 10 o'clock here. Any idea where we can get an armed guard? Yeah, that's what it is here. She said for months she was terrified in her own house. She didn't know what he would do, if he would break in. Every noise. She said she was non-functional for months. She was just, everything was scaring the shit out of her. She didn't know what he would do, if he would break in. Every noise. She said she was non-functional for months.

She was just, everything was scaring the shit out of her. I don't blame her. Boy, I wish I hadn't met that guy. No shit. She said she didn't think anyone would understand. She didn't confide in anyone. She said, it was this horrible secret I had, and in a way, I felt it all plays back to the shame that started it.

That's the thing. Because she's thinking, she fucked up multiple times. She put this kid up for adoption. Then he kills someone. She brings him back into her home and life. And now she's done all this to herself. She's thinking. Meanwhile, she just lived a life.

Remember when I used to hang out with James Belushi? Yeah. John Belushi. Meanwhile, she had no choice in giving him up. And then she tried to be a nice person and reconnect with him. She's trying to whatever. I don't know if it's a nice person or appease her own guilt or whatever the fuck it is. But it doesn't matter. She said trying to whatever. I don't know if it's a nice person or appease her own guilt or whatever the fuck it is, but it doesn't matter.

She said she felt horrible about it. She said decades of silence and now I'm slammed in the face with it again. The guilt and everything like that. She saw a therapist who told her to cut all ties, not only to Joe, but to his ex-wife, many of his children or her grandchildren

and one of whom she actually knew, the son she met, and would call her grandma and shit. So she's going to nix her grandson too, everything, cut everybody out. I'm really sorry I can't talk to you again. Your daddy's a murderer. I'm sorry.

Your daddy's a piece of shit. Your daddy's terrible. You have no family now. Back to your trailer park in Indiana with you. I'm going to go back to my mansion. I'm that rich grandma you always wished you had that gives you nice video games and things for your birthday. Not anymore. I'm going to go back to being that lady.

Sorry. I'm going to keep all the video games. All for me. He said that he said that he can almost understand why she got... Almost. Stop talking to him, Collier said, but not to his son he was mad at her

for not talking to his son anymore she said after she'd gotten to her after she'd gotten them to call her Nana and everything which is kind of fucked up but also too you can't be getting with them if you're afraid of him because you can't give them information that possibly they'll tell him where

you're at that's the thing there so she talked to local police. They offer protection, which is interesting. That only happens to rich white people. That's why. If you went to police and said, I need protection, they'd be like, I don't know, fucking get a gun. What do you want from me?

Sorry, Malcolm. Get a dog. I don't know. Don't you have pit bulls, Malcolm? Don't worry about it. She said she was in more pain now than she was the entire 37 years. She said, I brought him into my heart, my home, my family, and now she's worried for them all. She thought it was going to be a glorious reunion like you see on television.

She thought she was going to have all of that. He says that he feels cheated, and it was like a cruel joke. He says that he feels abandoned a second time now. Oh, no. You know what happens when he feels abandoned. Remember that last time he felt abandoned? Yeah, that was bad. band in a second time. Oh, no. He's you know what happens when he feels a member that last time he filled a band. Yeah, that was bad.

So summer 2008, he tells Candy back to Candy that he's no longer speaking to his mother. And it's saying he tells her it's because she bad mouth. It's because his mother bad mouth Candy. OK. So he's like, she bad mouth you and I'm not having that shit. I'm not taking any of that. Cut off all of my rich family. Fuck her. Gravy train ended because you don't talk shit about you.

You don't talk shit about my Florida candy. None of that shit here. So, yeah, she also learned that she was, like I said, they broke up when she learned that he had a wife in Indiana. She also learned that he wasn't always with his mother in Atlanta, but also had a girlfriend there, too, and was sometimes going to. Had a girlfriend in Atlanta, too? Girlfriend in Atlanta, but also had a girlfriend there, too, and was sometimes going to. Had a girlfriend in Atlanta, too? Girlfriend in Atlanta.

My Christ. Wife up in Indiana and this other girlfriend that they're planning on being married down in Florida. So if you're a single dude, I don't know what you're doing wrong. This guy can figure it the fuck out. And he's a murderer. He then loses his job again at the investment company in August 2008, and he moves back in with Candy Williams in Florida.

Oh, Candy. He gets a construction job. He's eventually let go. He spends a lot of time on the computer. She ends up discovering that he was posting his profile on multiple dating sites and kicks him out for good, finally. Give a crooked man a computer. It's going to be worse.

It's going to be fucking worse. It's going to get bad. He's going to get stiff and crooked, both. So she kicks him out. She kicks him out in May forever. She said immediately he began stalking and harassing her. Of course he did.

Immediately. He sends hundreds of emails about his love, his commitment to change, his explanations of the dating sites. Also, her home was repeatedly vandalized. I wonder where that happened. I wonder who that was. She said, he wanted me to feel scared and ask him back for protection to fix the stuff.

It's like Charlie doing the dentist system on Always Sunny in Philadelphia. And he's trying to scare the waitress. That's what he's doing, basically. That's his gig. I don't know. Which I think that episode was out at that time. Maybe that's what he was doing. 2008? That's his gig. I don't know. Which I think that episode was out at that time. Maybe that's what he was doing. 2008?

That's a close one. It's possible. That's like a mid-series. Is it second season or third? Oh, it was out then. Was it? It was out by then. No, no.

I'm saying how far into the season was that? I think it was like third or fourth season, the Dennis system. It wasn't too late. It may have been the fourth. I don't know. We'll see. But he could have got it from Dennis, which is scary. It's possible. I hope he did.

He's wearing a Detroit shirt with a gun on it. Jesus. Instead of letting him back in, she called the cops, got a domestic violence injunction against him. He kept calling and emailing her, saying he wanted to get together. He was staying with a co-worker in

Sarasota at the time. She's getting angry and scared and the whole deal. By the way, she still doesn't know why she should be scared. She doesn't know he's a fucking murderer. According to her, he's just this guy that won't leave her alone and that's scary. Imagine if you knew the fucking other shit.

You'd be more scared. So she just thinks she's got this annoying guy who won't leave her alone. It's insane, man. Some of the emails, by the way, that he sent were from other email addresses from people Collier knew,

but they ended up turning out to be from fake email accounts that he created. A lot of them are like these long letters about how much all he talks about to this person is how much he loves her and she should get back with him because he's a good guy. Oh, my God. Invented all these people here. It's crazy.

Some of these people, they mentioned business deals that are bullshit. They talk about cooking with him. At one point, he posed as his ex-wife, saying that he's a good guy. His children, saying, you've got to get back together with my dad. His friends, everybody trying to get somebody. Every person he can think of is sending this woman emails. He even, oh my God, he posed as an Atlanta therapist, saying that Collier checked out early for mental health treatment and the clinic hoped Williams would persuade him to return. So you need to talk to him.

Yeah. Please talk to him. You're the only one. You're the only one that can straighten this guy out and send him back here. This guy's taken every goddamn angle. Every angle, man. One email from him said from the therapist. Yeah.

Or I'm sorry, this is an email from a friend in the drywall business in Indiana that doesn't exist. Said, quote, when we talked the other day, he sounded different than I've ever heard his voice before, like he has some serious goals and something about stepping up and growing up and proving himself to not just you, but to everyone really have been pulling for you guys. So, you know, I can borrow. I got to get back to mud in this wall, man. What the fuck?

She ignored him. She ignored him. Then in June, she gets a bunch of messages that say that he hanged that he hanged himself okay uh she replied to the writers about this but got no response finally she calls up his mother birth mother linda in atlanta and uh so because she said you know she had uh visited she knew that he'd visited there and she had gone with him to visit at one point and thought they were nice people, but she hadn't talked to him in a while.

Listen, it's Candy in Florida. I know that you hate me. He told me, but I want you to know that he hanged himself. Is that what she's going to do? She's trying to confirm this. Did your son kill himself or not? What the fuck is going on? I know you guys hate me.

I've heard. I've heard. Yeah, that's what she said. Now, because that's the thing. He said that the parents suggested that he was too good for Candy. And so that's what created the deep rift here. Got it. So then until Candy now calls the mother about the suicide, Williams calls and says, hey, is he dead?

The mother and husband say they didn't think so, but they hadn't heard from him about a year since they learned about the murders. Her next question is, what, murders? Like, she literally did a, you know, like a cartoon character. Murders? I was scared a minute ago. What the fuck? I thought I knew what scared was. So they said,

you don't know? Oh my god. And then, holy shit, so she found out about how he killed his family, but we did the whole thing here. She said that freaked her out a touch more, obviously. Really freaked her out. His daughter, Nicole, they talked to her a few times here. She said, it's not something that I was ever prepared for. When I found out about his past, I wasn't sure how all to feel.

I wasn't sure if I should be mad at him or scared of him. I had no idea how I should be with him. Away from him. She said it was neat. She said she liked the fact that he was trying to rebuild his life. She said it was very neat to see that. I mean, Dad was getting

his life back on track, settling down, hopefully for good. Don't think so here. These emails, by the way, around this time also change from you're the love of my life and I haven't been happy since I've lost you and all this. This is a really big misunderstanding. To you, bitch whore. It turns into, quote, I hope your world caves in.

Holy shit. I hope all your pets die. Oh, my God. I hope the house falls down while you are in it. I hope you get in a physically. This is the oddest. I hope you get into a physically altering car crash. That's very specific.

That is insane. Like, I hope two drunk drivers team up. That is so weird. He feels about her how I feel about Tom Brady. Yeah, exactly. Well, this maybe not. Every time. Maybe not.

Finally, they're in public. Yeah. And he meets her in public for something, and he threatens her with a knife. Oh, boy. So at that point, she calls police finally and gets a restraining order. I would have called the moment I heard about the murders. That would have been the time for me to go, I'm going to go ahead and make sure that this is on the record here, just in case here.

How does he not get arrested for assault? That's the thing. He doesn't get a restraining, because I guess she didn didn't report that she just said she wanted a restraining order uh and this time she gets an injunction like i said uh and he has been charged with misdemeanor stalking uh he is arrested and disappears after posting bad boy he disappears uh yes that's terrifying williams now candy williams tells the police about the wisconsin murders like this guy that you're looking for by the way he's also a triple fucking murderer. He's not a good vicious way.

This isn't just some guy that's a little, you know, this isn't just a guy that's sending me emails and tipping over my flamingos in my front yard. Yes. He's a fucking he's a menace. After she tells the police, though, there's an article in the paper. Press get a hold of it. OK. Blows his whole shit out of the water.

Now. Now he can't hide at all. Everyone knows who he is. It's in the water. The press get a hold of it. Okay. Blows his whole shit out of the water. Now he can't hide at all. Everyone knows who he is. It's in the water. He changed his name from this to this. He did this. Everything comes out. And now he really disappears. Now the St. Pete mirror is fucking going to blow up a spot.

Gets a little worse. It was the St. Petersburg Times. Oh, boy. After that, now the stalking really picked up. Really? Now he's pissed. Now he's mad. Now he's even more mad.

She would get packages in the mail at home and at work. Flowers, sex toys, even a dead piglet. What? He sent her a dead pig. He will later claim was a nice gesture because she's a second grade teacher. He found a pig to dissect on the internet and ordered it for her and that's why he was giving it to her that's so sweet not to freak her out or anything because all second graders dissect mammals that's what you do in second grade right

you cut things open i think that's middle school it's like horseshit what is anything as dead ever been sent to somebody as a nice gesture a nice gesture unless it's unless it's unless it's butchered for cooking. It's not a nice gesture. Unless that piglet was cut up into chops and ribs and shit like that, then it would have been, what a sweet guy. Then he works for Omaha Steaks at that point. That's all.

That's normal. Has sent her some Trump pork chops. Yeah, it's the same shit. So anyway, so yeah, she gets dead piglets and everything else here. How do you go from sex toy to dead pig? No sex toy, dildo not going to get it for you. Maybe a dead piglet will get her attention. I figured she could accommodate something bigger.

Yeah, maybe. Oh, my God. He approached her at the beach in violation of the injunction, but the cops didn't catch him. She had to have her car checked for like like, GPS tracking bugs and shit like that. She bought a gun. Wow. Which she should have more than that here. Yeah.

Collier also created profiles on online sex sites using her name and address posing as her in online chats with men, some of whom showed up at her fucking house. Oh, my God. So, basically, he's having horny internet weirdos show up at her house. Ready to fuck. Ready to fucking rape her. Here for the gangbang. It's the thing.

And who knows if he's telling her, if he's telling him, I like it when you just come in and do it. Don't listen to me if I say no. Who knows what the fuck he's telling these guys on here. I'm into the rapey shit. Jesus. It's absolutely insane, man. She said she lost her mind.

She would only sleep two hours a night. She'd be sitting on the couch watching the doors. She was just freaked out. He became madder and madder. One of the emails said, what comes around goes around. So just remember that you took my life from me and I'm very and I am very lost and angry at you for that. I'm here in St. Pete and hope to hell I run into you. You messed me over and I will pay you back. You rep your job, all of it. That's the type of shit. Then you get a dead piglet and then perverts at your door. This is fucking horrible.

It's felony stalking then that goes to instead of a misdemeanor. Still, though, they can't find him. She said she's been advised to relocate, but she likes where she lives and thinks that he's going to find her anywhere anyway because of the goddamn internet and everything. She said, all I ever wanted was for him to leave me alone.

If he had, none of this would have ever come out, which is true. If he wouldn't have stalked her, she wouldn't have called the parents and none of this would have been in the paper and he could have gone and been a horrible person and money girls under the radar for the rest of his life. This is fucking crazy. This is a crazy goddamn story, especially creating the online profiles and having people search. That's just awful. Fucking nuts.

Yeah. Tips come in about him in Atlanta and Indiana, all around Tampa, all summer. They couldn't find him. He's gone all summer. Like, he's a fucking whitey bulger. How? He's a dirtbag. Right.

What is going on? He's not whitey bulger here. Now, they eventually ask, the local police eventually ask the U.S. Marshal Service for help in finding him. They do a little better job than the local Florida cops. Three days later after that, on October 21st, they arrest him at a motel in Savannah, Georgia, where he was on a trip with his new girlfriend from Indiana, who she said she had no idea that he was a murderer, a wanted stalker, any of this shit here.

They set him up. It's pretty interesting, actually. The information was received saying that he could be at the Thunderbird Motel in Savannah across from the bus station. They went to the hotel and asked if he was there. He was staying in room 208, and they went and arrested him. He was just in his room, just like, there he is. So the marshals know how to find people. I like it.

Yeah, Williams here, Candy, said she got the news at work through an email and felt a lot better, obviously, that he was arrested. Seriously here, wouldn't you? Christ. The prosecutors wanted to use the details of his juvenile crimes to show how the recent threats were credible, but the judge

ruled against it. Really? All the prosecutors can say is that he has a, quote, violent past. Okay. Unless he or his attorneys bring it up. Character, you can't bring it up. If they start saying he's a good kid, when he was 13 he helped a lady across the street, they can go, what about when he was 14? He butchered his whole fucking family.

But besides that, they can't do it. She had to miss work, Williams, over 10 times for court hearings. She said it's going on a year now and it hasn't even really started. It's consumed my entire life. Jesus. Oh my God. She says also when he gets out, she thinks that he's going to return and bother her. She said she doesn't know what to do. Like I said,

they told her to leave and she doesn't know where to go. Where the hell is she going to go? Where do you go at that point? You don't know. You live there. Where can you run that he to go? Where do you go at that point? You don't know. You live there. Where can you run that he's not going to find you? Another country across an ocean? Where? How far? What's the limit? He'll find out how to find you through email anyway. That's the thing here.

A lot of the friends were betrayed by him, they said. They said these people, a lot of them wouldn't talk to the press or anything like that. One friend said even after he learned the truth, he took Collier in. This was the press or anything like that. One friend said even after he learned the truth, he took Collier in. This was the Nick Chochos guy. He knew Collier and his wife, and he found out about the murders after the wife found out about Lee there. He hired him as a

subcontractor, like I said. He said this all happened. He found out when this was all in the news. He found out, and he called him, and he said, you know, you're in the news in tampa right and all collier said was quote how about that that's something isn't it nothing else like and that's something it is no remorse no apology no anything uh he said uh but yet later on even when he was wanted collier collier called him begging for a place to stay when he visited his son and this Nick guy let him stay there because he felt sorry for the son. Jesus, Nick. Yeah. He said, call me naive, call me stupid.

Naive, stupid. There you go. You are. He said that. You're also stupid and naive, you fucking idiot. Yeah. This guy's wife, Chocho's wife, asked Collier why he killed his family. He told her it was because the father beat him, his mother didn't protect him,

and he was jealous of his little brother, who his parents considered the perfect son. That's probably the most honest thing he's ever said. Probably. Collier stayed there about a week. Then he moved into a rental house owned by Nick Chocho to do repairs. And in September, he also did some work for Nick's father-in-law. And a handgun turned up missing there later and was recovered from the woman Collier was with when he was arrested.

So he stole from his friends. Cho-Cho said, quote, people should be forgiven given a second chance. But Joe, he's had more than a second chance. I would say he's on like chance fucking nine. He's had everything here. And wait, it gets worse. In April 2010, so now he's in custody. He's about to go

to court for all this. In April 2010 he talks now he's in custody. He's about to go to court for all this. In April 2010, he talks to the press. What? Javon, Peter, Paul, all of them. They all talk. He says that he kept a diary at Ethan Allen and has been writing more in jail. He's trying to understand himself better. He says, I've seen the same picture for 27 years.

Time doesn't change it. It's sad. It hurts my heart. I still think about the murders, but I don't want to talk about them. All that sort of thing. He said that he liked meeting his family. He said, quote, I've got good blood. It's like, Jesus Christ.

It's all over some soaked clothes in your fucking old house. Yeah. Then he said he's saving most details to help him market his story. Oh, my God. He's working on a memoir, has been in discussions with publishers and a TV production company. He also talked of plans for an agency or organization to work with adopted children and their families.

Stay away from everyone. I hope that this podcast ruins all ability for a movie. Fuck, is there a fucking iron mask here we can put him in? Jesus Christ almighty. He said it's a serious subject a serious case it's not me cashing in then again he wanted 200 000 for this interview that he was doing initially he ended up doing it for free i think to try to promote that later on uh he said he couldn't completely hide his anger that his new persona had been tainted uh he thinks the

relatives of his adopted family are responsible for outing him yeah he said they had the resources they were committed to ruining my life at some point. No, you were committed to it when you butchered fucking three people. Yeah. Tom Sokol, who was, uh, who's, who's aunt, one of his cousins, adopted cousins said, quote, we're not bothering him. He's not bothering us. We've, we've had nothing to do with him.

We just wanted him to go on and have a successful life. They're like, he killed our family. And we're still, we're like, oh, maybe hopefully it's good. There's still nice people from Wisconsin. So yeah, this, this isn't insane. So Candy obviously said she is just doesn't know what to do with Candy Williams. She said he's a compulsive liar. He has no remorse. It's all about Joe. May of 2010, he pleads guilty to aggravated stalking. Sentencing is May 17th of 2010. He is sentenced to three and a half years in Florida State Prison.

Three and a half years. That's not much. He'll get credit for time spent in jail since his arrest, which is damn near a year, or six months, eight months. The St. Petersburg Times said that the judge here, Joseph A. Ballone, asked a series of standard questions before accepting his plea, including whether he had a history of mental illness.

He paused, Collier, appeared to grin and looked at his attorney and then turned and said, no, no history. Like, no official history. I'm crazy as fuck, obviously. But I mean, I don't know. Never talked to anyone about it. Nothing on papers there. He made no statement for sentencing and and neither did Williams, because she had to work. So she couldn't be there and didn't want to be there.

So he is sentenced to three and a half. You, sir, may fuck off. Not for long enough. Not even close at all. Same sentence you got for killing your fucking family. Same thing. Unbelievable. Same thing.

November 2010, ABC News does a story on him. They have a forensic psychiatrist named Dr. Michael Wellner talking about this sort of thing. And I find this fucking fascinating. He's the associate professor of psychiatry at NYU School of Medicine. So, you know, he's got some credentials, this guy. Sounds like he knows what he's talking about. More than me, anyway. So they asked him, based on his reported behavior, would you say that Jovan Collier, a.k.a. Peter Zimmer, is clinically a psychopath?

Do you believe his claimed abandonment issues from childhood had any profound influence on the way he turned out, or is he exaggerating those issues to excuse his behavior? This shit's fascinating. This is great. He says, you cannot tell Collier's diagnosis from the murder alone. from the murder alone. Still, the brazenness of his sense of entitlement to the estate of the family he murdered and the schemes of setting her up with unsuspecting sex website partners

makes it realistic to ponder whether he is actually a psychopath. Brazenness is an exceptional quality when in the quality of lying and having two wives unbeknownst to one another where brazen inaction should inspire greater scrutiny. So basically, he's got too much balls to not should inspire greater scrutiny yes so basically he's got too much balls to not be a fucking psychopath is what he's saying here uh adolescents who kill

have conflicts at home some have been abused some are merely destructive characters who will not tolerate limits being set abandonment abandonment issues plague many including those from intact homes the choice of violence relates to someone relates to how someone deals with abandonment or to other life priorities and stressors, not adoption per se. So adoption doesn't make you kill people, even though there was a joke for a long time that serial killers are adopted. Doesn't matter. No.

Doesn't matter. It doesn't help. It's how you process. It's just like every other health and mental illness. The adoption alone doesn't make how you process it's just like every other health well what he just said mental illness the adoption alone doesn't make you a killer other shit you would if you're adopted and abused and this and that because you were put into a bad family that's a different story threatened and you have to lash out there's a difference it's a mental illness one way or another that you it's how you process shit yeah you can't fucking slash your little brother and

mom and then fucking shoot your dad as an excuse for any sort of mental health. No, absolutely not. He says all this too. He says emotional abandonment is not a trigger to familicide as much as a mental abandonment is. Or material, I'm sorry, material abandonment is. Although issues ranging

from abuse to threats to anti-social explosiveness to substance intoxication are all realistic possibilities. But they don't think so for him. They say when adolescent killers return to the community, it should surprise no one that they conceal their past as best they can. Well, yeah. Shame. Yeah, absolutely. He says for every will, every person willing to give them a second chance.

There are many who are horrified at the notion that they as killers can be free to enjoy the simple pleasures the victims cannot. Which is true. You're never going to get a fair start if everyone knows who you are and all that sort of thing. I get that. But if you killed your whole family and it truly kept you up at night, horrified, it was just the bane of your existence would ate at you all the time, you would never pick up a knife in anger.

No. Because that would be the last thing. Like, oh my God, flashback to this horrible thing of me holding a knife and my mother's skull being penetrated and my little brother fighting back. Terrified you can't stop yourself. Yeah, it's Jesus Christ, man. Now, while he's in prison, he is mailing Williams copies of his appeal and things like that, saying, like, I'm appealing, I'm getting out, sending her copies, which violates the order.

Good. So they're considering new charges against him. Apparently, this Williams and the mother, Linda Zaworski, check his release date weekly to make sure that it doesn't move up. That sort of thing. She says, Zaworski said, when I look at his eyes now, they're like shark's eyes, soulless dead eyes. When he was living here with me, after I found out what and i and i'd have to act like nothing was wrong uh but when i look at him i

think what did those eyes see what did those hands that are holding my hands do no shit uh yeah they ask her had you known about her whole story would you have made contact maybe forgiven him maybe figured out a different relationship maybe not let him move into the house and things like that but maybe talk to him on the phone. And she said, I can't answer that. I never got the chance to process it. Now it's just a rhetorical question. I'm extremely sorry.

His life is what it is at his own hand. I don't know why. It's devastating to me. We had something to do with it by giving her my, but it's not your fault. I don't blame her at all. I don't blame her at all. She said she kept all her papers from the Odyssey, from her parental Odyssey, and she's thinking of writing a book for catharsis, she says, not for money. She still stays in touch with Williams.

She says, quote, we're the only two people who know how the other one feels. We both fell in love with someone who didn't exist. So, monster slain, right? He's in jail. Everything's taken care of. He's released in 2012. Yes, he is. He's released early.

Early. Early. Early release. Not long after he's released from state prison, he moves to McLennan County, Texas, where Waco is over there. He denies, like I said, denies the dead pig thing. He says he thought it was good for a science fair, which is amazing. What a fucking ridiculous thing to say. He says about the pig quote,

I sent that to her out of the kindness of my heart for the benefit of her kids. Everything I do with good intentions gets turned into an evil thing. It was a science or thing, you know, it was loaded with baking soda. All she had to do was pour vinegar in it. That's all. And it would have been an amazing fucking volcano.

Absolutely. Christ, man. So he immediately gets another girlfriend over there in Waco, breaks up with her. A friend of his ex-girlfriend said, quote, everything that comes out of his mouth is a lie or a perversion of the truth. That woman was a second grade teacher. There are no second grade children in this country who do dissections of animals.

He sent that to her as a threat. You betcha. She's like, fuck that. I can see her telling her friend, you don't talk to him ever again, goddammit, taking her phone away. I will take you out tonight. We're going to go out and we're going to have a nice time, but you don't need him for shit. You're going to forget about him.

You need that friend. Yeah. You got to get that friend here. Every woman needs that friend. Everybody needs that goddammit. That's a good point. Everybody needs that friend. So Collier came to Waco in February of 2013 after landing a job with a company building a local hotel.

He said that if the woman, if Candy, was actually traumatized by his behavior, they could have blocked him from their phones or emails or text messages. He's like, I don't know what the hell her problem was. You were sending perverts to her house, expecting sex. You sent her dildos, pigs, and dudes ready to fuck yeah so the one lady's friend said we should have to do all of that he's a narcissist who can't stand to be rejected it's true fuck that guy like yeah just just whatever so uh he starts dating a woman with no knowledge of his past like i said this is june of 2014 uh two of her friends uh of this woman's friends saw a TV show about him and brought the information to the sheriff's department. At that point, this woman becomes aware of all of her other relationships, all of his other relationships.

There's a Shannon O'Neill who's a 43 year old teacher who set up who sets up this meeting and we'll find out about this. She said she kept thinking it was a joke, but they kept showing me all this information they had on him. There was cops around after they found out about it going, we tried to make these ladies aware of the danger they were in, women who were going out with him. We're concerned about any woman's safety who comes in contact with a convicted predator like this.

No shit. So this fiancé and the fiancé's friend asked him to stop all communications with them. What do you think he did? Think he just went back and said, all right, that's cool. I think he went pig shopping. Yeah. She said about that, not only did it continue, but it escalated. Yeah.

He sends them 20 to 30 messages per day to each of them. This is all of them saying that he wants to get a response from his ex-fiance. So finally, finally, he is lured to the patio of a cantina, Texas, it's called, in the 1200 block of Hewitt Drive in Waco under the pretense of her wanting to get back together with him. Seven deputies were set up undercover in nearby cars to arrest him. They said he came in thinking he was just going to meet with me and move forward. But no, he ends up face down with handcuffs on him real fucking fast. Moving forward in the legal system.

Yeah. Collier said she looked down and said to him, you messed with the wrong girls. She said, I don't want him to physically or emotionally hurt another woman. I don't want them to feel the way we have felt. Yeah. So the conditions of, but guess what? They arrest him. You think they keep him in jail?

No, there's bail. Bond it out, baby. He bonds it out. Conditions of his bond say that he's not allowed to be involved, you know, to contact these women. He wasn't supposed to be in contact with them anyway. Yeah. The one police officer said, we're going to be monitoring him.

This is truly like something out of a novel. We have to follow this guy around and make sure he doesn't talk to women. Yes, this is fucking crazy. They said he stalked a woman in Florida

and he was doing the same exact thing here. He kept saying he wanted a second chance. He said he has had about 2,000 second chances. A man who cannot take no for an answer

is someone to be feared. He cannot take no for an answer. This man be feared. He cannot take no for an answer. This man. Definitely not. He was on the television show I Dated a Psycho. Awesome. Apparently they did a small thing on that and that's how they ended up finding out. He is jailed. His bond was set at $150,000

at first. Now that's for a second. Pause that for one moment here. There's a third woman involved in this. And there's the fiance and her friend and now a third woman who he also was pursuing while he was engaged to the first woman. Jesus Christ, this guy. Holy shit. This woman lent Collier her iPad.

When she got it back, she discovered that he had used it to set up dates with five other women on Match.com. My Christ. He's fucking slick, this guy. This fucking shopper! Five other women. He also sent nearly identical text messages moments apart to two separate women, telling them how much he loved them both and how he wanted them both back.

Holy fucking shit. This cop guy said, you can't protect everybody from everything, but we really have made a concerted effort to stand between this guy and these women because they were really scared to death after they found out he was a triple murderer and had just been imprisoned for aggravated stalking in Florida.

No shit. Now, his attorney, Collier's attorney, says that the $150,000 bond in Waco was very, very excessive. Normal bonds for Class B misdemeanors range from $500 to $1,500, not $150,000. And his old murder can't count.

Right. So that's a thing there. The lawyer said this is ridiculous. Quote, I would hate to think that the reason he's being treated so harshly is because of something that happened when he was a kid. Like he fucking broke a window with a baseball. And also. He didn't steal a newspaper from his neighbor.

Not to mention, I think the aggravated stalking, just getting out of prison for that, probably is a factor. He also said the electronic harassment section of the penal code is, quote, very problematic. And he said it's so vague that she's considering challenging the constitutionality of everything. What the fuck? Because this guy, he's being railroaded right now. This is ridiculous. The statute says it's a crime to send electronic messages with intent to harass, alarm, torment, or embarrass someone. That's pretty vague.

The embarrass part I don't like. But the rest of it's pretty clear. This woman says, the lawyer, in our electronic age, we all send text messages. Who knows? Someone could be annoyed with just a few text messages. We're all going to be in trouble if this is liberally enforced. Shut up. You're threatening people.

So guess what? He bonds out. This fucking guy. He bonds out. God, he's so lucky. He bonds out on July 18th, and he tells the newspaper uh he just wants to that he's just trying to move on with his life he's going to escondido california just to get away from it all for a while he says hotter chicks are but then he's not in california he calls the

probation all these people saying he's in california he's not in california because he has an electronic ankle monitor showing he's in houston does he not know how fucking gps works this moron uh he's been there ever since he not know how fucking GPS works, this moron? Jesus, he's so dumb. He's been there ever since he's been bonded out. Never went to California. It's fucking ridiculous. The cop at this point, the McNamara guy, says he butchered his family when he was 14 and everything that comes out of his mouth is a lie.

I'm worried about this situation. This poor guy is just going around going, don't talk to him. Stop. He's a jackass. He's got to be the best cock blocker in Texas. Truly. And that's going to help the world here. Yeah, so anyway, he declines to discuss the harassment charges pending against him.

He does say that he moved to another city and had another girlfriend when he was arrested on these misdemeanors and had moved on with his life and he didn't understand it. He said he's not violating any of the conditions of his bond by being in Houston. He's just better not contact the women. And also, you should probably not lie about where you are if you're electronically monitored. Probably be honest with your fucking probation officer. Yeah, yeah. He said he was moving to Houston and then said he was in Escondido, California. He emailed from two different accounts and used two different phone numbers,

texted a picture of himself supposedly in California to confirm his identity. Look, it's a palm tree. Yeah. I'm clearly in California. Look, see? He said, with all I've been through. Look, the ocean. Look at that.

I'm with Mickey Mouse. Him with Mickey Mouse. Right. With ears like Rusty. Right. Like Rusty McIntyre. I went on a Disney cruise to get away from it all. Jesus Christ.

He said, with all I've been through, no one is going to pretend to be me these days, except for you, dipshit. Oh, my God. He lies. Jesus Christ. He checked, according to this cop, he checked Friday with the company that monitors the GPS that he's supposed to be wearing. He went from Waco to Houston, never left the Houston area, which he's allowed to do. That's why he doesn't understand. This cop says he lies even when the truth serves him better.

Even when it's better for him, he still lies. He has to. He's still out of the town where they don't want you at. Right? He's got an explanation, though. He says, if I say the wrong thing, people always interpret it incorrectly, Collier's saying here. He says, once this is all over, I will sit down and talk and talk and talk.

I haven't said anything in 30 years and it's kind of eating at me. But but every time someone retells my story, it becomes more and more sensational. Well, I hope I fucking hope I nailed justice for you. It'll be the first time any justice has been served. You fucking jerk. Yes. So he gets on the phone he's making new claims now he gets on the phone says he's in california which he's not yeah he's on a phone interview says that his father hans zimmer was a nazi oh my god and who made

frequent trips to germany and was also a nazi he said his home was filled with nazi weapons swastikas and uniforms that his father physically, and sexually abused him with for years. What? He was sexually abused by his father's Nazi memorabilia. This is fucking new. I'm sorry. We've never had that before on this show, have we? I don't think so.

That's a new one. Sexually abused. What, he sits you on a fucking German soldier helmet with a spike on top of it? Yeah, with a World War I Kaiser helmet. What the fuck is he talking about? What is happening? I fucking hate this guy. He also claimed that his parents let their friends sexually abuse him, and he claimed

he was abused by two clergymen in Illinois as he served as an altar boy. I believe one thing he said in this entire fucking thing. But you should totally kill a 10-year-old for that, you fucking jerk. Yeah, now, he says that the primary, the Hill guy, the detective that- Bob Hill? Yeah, that investigated the thing 38 years on the force there. Yeah, that had never seen anything worse. Nothing.

He said that he investigated this whole thing to begin with. He said that there was no evidence in the Mineral Point, Wisconsin home, that there was anything associated with Nazism or anything that connected Hans Zimmer to Nazism, as he claims. He also said he the Hill said he found evidence that Collier went into the attic and rifled through his father's military trunk, taking weapons and ammunitions. But he said his father was in the U.S. Army and the gear was American, not German. Not only is he not a Nazi, he's in a fucking American soldier.

You're trying to besmirch by calling him a Nazi. Fucking jerk. What a complete asshole. Wow. Then he makes his final, final fucking statement that's the craziest thing of all. He says. He's going to get crazier. I love the way they say this, too.

Collier on the phone in Houston, but claiming to be in California, the way the press put this. But he said that he didn't kill his parents and younger brother. He now denies it. He says he does know who did it, but doesn't know if the person is still alive or where the alleged real killer might be. But he's saving that information for a book that he's planning to write. You fuck. Is it possible?

Did you hate him? You said, I can't hate him more. And then he said that. And he went, you son of a bitch. Oh, Jesus. You lousy son of a bitch what a piece of garbage so july 20 fucking asshole man how is this how is this shit real it's insanity man so july 25th 2015 he pleads guilty to harassing three women in mcclellan county uh including his former fiance. Judge Mike Freeman accepts a plea agreement between Collier and prosecutors, sentencing

him to 30 days in jail on each of the three misdemeanors. The sentences result in no additional jail time, because he was given credit for two weeks' time served after his arrest in jail. He wears a GPS ankle monitor to keep tabs on him since he's released.

He's eager to have it removed, he says, but the judge ordered him to keep wearing it, the monitor, until he returns to his current residence in Orange County, California, in order to make sure he leaves McClellan County as promised. Sweet Pete. They said take the monitor off and get him the fuck out of our county, then he's somebody else's problem. Do not come to the Pico Union Project this week. Or come.

I have a feeling there'll be a lot of people there that would love to have a conversation with you. Probably. I guarantee it. What the fuck? He signed three lifetime protective orders as part of the plea agreement, which orders him to stay away from the three victims in the case. One of the victims planned to confront Collier on Friday morning in court by giving a victim impact statement, but the prosecutor told the judge that the woman changed her mind. The second was going to write a letter to the court, but also backed out after she said she was struggling with what to say in this letter.

So this fucking, my God, Joe Collier, Paul the baby, Peter Zimmer, wow. You are a vile monster, sir. He is a vile monster, sir. He is a vile monster. Wow. As vile of a monster as Peter Zimmer is, please don't take it out on a different Peter Zimmer. Please don't take it out on Dr. Peter Zimmer, MD, who's a general surgeon in Colorado Springs. He's a general surgery specialist, has been practicing for 20 years, specializes in general surgery, has four and a half stars on healthgrades.com out of five.

He's a pro. He lost a half a star. And he's accepting new patients. Fantastic. So help this guy out, because I'm sure he's lost a patient or two who thinks he murdered his entire family. But do take it out on Javon Collier, who's a complete moron in Florida. I saw a Javon Collier 2017 rape story in Florida. I went, oh my God, different Javon Collier, who's a complete moron in Florida. I saw a Javon Collier 2017 rape story in Florida.

I went, oh, my God. Different Javon Collier. This one's stupider than our Javon Collier. This guy raped a woman while wearing his work shirt with his name on it. Javon. So what did they? She went to the police and said, he works here and his name is Javon. They went to the store and said, does Javon work here?

And he came out and they fucking arrested him for rape because he's an idiot. Take it out on that idiot. Fucking moron. That is amazing. That's Peter, Paul, Peter Zimmer, Javon Collier, Candy, the whole goddamn disaster. That's a story like no other. He's out there. He's out there.

He is in, as they said, I guess to get his bracelet off, he's somewhere in Orange County, California, allegedly. So if you're in California and this guy's walking up, walking around, he's a bald guy with a goatee. Just avoid all of those.

Sorry, but fuck me, man. This is a mess. That is this disaster. That's mineral point, Wisconsin. Holy shit.

If you like that story, I really hope you do because it was brutal to put together. So if you enjoy that story, I really hope you do, because it was brutal to put together. So if you enjoy that story, please, please get on iTunes. Give us five stars. It's essential. It's essential. It doesn't matter what you say. The five stars are important. You can say anything you want. If you want to be a bigger hero, like the people we're going to talk about in just a moment, please, you can go to Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports, and you can make a donation, or you can go to paypal you can make a one-time donation using our email address crime and sports at gmail.com and like i said earlier

you heard this whole thing it's ad free unbelievable thank you because you're the only ones that make this even a viable enterprise at all for us so thank you guys so much we've fucking i i cut it out i've ran it about it like three times and cut it out. But goddamn Audio Boom owes us so much money. They haven't paid us since October. We're not even on Audio Boom anymore. We've been off of there for two months. They have not paid us the money that we've made in October, November, December. They paid us legitimately three times when we were over there.

That's it. In a year and a half. And it was tiny money. They owe us so much money and they haven't paid us. And we don't know if they're gonna pay us they said that they were merging with some other company and that they were suspending all payments when we went to get our payment and then so we emailed the other company and they said we don't know what the fuck you're talking about we haven't merged shit it shouldn't affect anything they're liars i said it before i'll say it again they're

james woods and casino yeah fucking country club country club golf hustlers. That's what they are. That's what I mean. He's an asshole. Exactly. He is. And fuck them. Fuck Audio Boom. And goddamnit, Podcast One, sell some fucking ads on this goddamn thing. Do you not want to make fucking money? Why don't you get it right?

These motherfuckers make 50%. You want to know podcast business? No one else in the business takes 50%. You show me another network that takes 50%. That's fucking pimp rates right there. They take 50% of our fucking money, and they don't fucking make a cent of zero. So enjoy. Fucking enjoy.

Enjoy your fucking ineptitude, not making yourselves any money, or us, or everything else. I got a mortgage. Fuck you. Eat dicks. All of you, you son of a bitches. That said, let's get to the list of the most fantastic people on the face of the earth that make us not give a shit if we're talking shit about these people because we don't need them.

We only need you. That's the only fucking people we need. The only people we love. Jimmy, hit us with that list. Firstly, thank you so, so much. Executive producers this week are Michelle Hayes, Megan Smith, Mary Ann Stumpf, and Sarah Gilbo. Thank you guys incredibly.

You guys are fucking amazing. Thank you for- We can't do it without you. Doing what you do for us. We really can't. Happy birthday to Jesse Rose over in Alabama. Happy birthday. I believe is where they're at.

Is it Alabama? I don't know. Fuck. I'm not sure. It might be Alabama. Happy birthday to you. Yeah. Anyway, Mark June Wells. Mark June Wells'm not sure. Happy birthday to you. Anyway, Mark

Junewells. Mark Junewells. He sent us fucking gold. That was so incredible. Thank you for that. That's so awesome. I liked your envelopes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fucking great. Good job. Thanks, dude. We appreciate the fuck out of it. Max Joshua, Victoria Jackman, Lindsay Watson,

Jake LaBeer, Anayda Paolo, Cynthia Mixer, Erica Green, Ted Cyrus, Dolce Thompson. That's it. Andrea Jones, Michael Malone, Deborah McMahon. McMahon. McMahon. It's not an O. It's an A.

McMahon. I don't know. It's McMahon. It's McMahon for sure. Jessica Pilkington, Julie Ritchie or Ritchie. I'm not sure which. R-I-C-C-I. Yes.

Ritchie. It could be Ritchie. It's Ritchie. I don't know. I know several people with that last name. It's all Ritchie. They could pronounce it different. I'm questioning an Italian.

It's Ritchie. Christina Ritchie. Liverbeards. I don't know if that's a podcast or if it's a product. Google it and find out. Stacey O'Sullivan. Michelle Kissel. Michelle Kissel. Michelle. beards i don't know if that's a podcast or if it's a product uh google it and find out uh stacy o'sullivan um michelle kissell michelle kissell michelle i'm not sure which that is thank you michelle thank you michelle adam gonzalez katherine logan jenny neighbors derek pearson

under the sea fabrics again thank you so much uh vivian asimus uh asimus uh asimos asomos asomos yeah we're trying not to be immature i'm trying my best it's got ass in there it's Asimus, Asimus, Asimos, Asomos. Asomos, yeah. I'm not sure. We're trying not to be immature here. I'm trying my best. It's got ass in there. It's really hard. We're sorry.

Thank you. Stacy Huffaker, Colin McHugh sent like 60 fucking bananas. Yeah, thank you. That was so cool. My phone kept going ridiculous. What is going on here? Thank you, Colin. Allison Solomon, Paul Roost.

Yeah, great. Thanks for all the memes, man. Thank you so, great. Incredible this week, Paul. Thank you so much. Killing it on that shit. Abigail Gonder, Candace Horner, Erica Hayashida. Yes. Lori Collins, Carter Harris, Ruben Salas, Michael Kennedy. Every time I see him, don't know.

Yeah, I know. It bumps us both out. I want to punch the... I remember a guy that i fucking loathe uh marcus rippentrop uh jesse hartman tammy blum uh tds tuning innovations if you got a car that needs some tuning call them up uh scott flory janet home uh marissa wells she caught she donates fucking concert thank you marissa uh these two it's clearly fucking with me because the amount of dots and the characters are... I'm going to try.

I'm going to do my best. You ready? Oh, my God. Here it is. Hildur runs Sigurdun. Ciaran. No, it's not right. Sigurdotur.

Hildur runs Sigurdotur doter kavarin i don't know you're just making fucking noises man you have no idea what you're saying you're literally just looking at letters and doing my best sigar and here's the second one uh sigar breed fjord uh pjortsten. I bet I nailed that one. Yeah. I bet I did. Breedfjord. What the fuck? I don't know what that means. Why would you do that to me?

I don't know what I'm doing. Sherry Rice. Esonzo. Zell Nelson. Kathleen Marquardt. Cynthia Lapham. Or Lapham. It's Lapham or Lapham.

Lapham. Probably. Dane Marichich. Dane dane marichich i think that's right uh mary joran brock uh angela shaw uh shane slocum no really slocum no i can't do that we are 12 it's slocum right it's probably slocum i've known a bunch of slocums it can't be slow baseball player he probably yeah jessica jessica hartke uh victoria zeller jessica gaither uh athena with no last name thank you and by the way she sent us some uh oh yeah some gift cards or not gift cards fucking no cards thank you cards and pens thank you nancy hebert kelsey's mom uh melissa schmaltz molly hickman. Hickman.

Molly Hickman. She's up there in fucking Portland, somewhere up there. She's coming to see the Portland show. Awesome. Thank you, Molly. That Portland show is sold out, by the way. Fucking great. Love it.

Can't wait. Celia Forbes, Lindy Simmons, Michael Rogers, Annette Freeze, Vivian Asimos. That's another Asimos, right? Jesus. Yeah, there's two Asimos. Two of them. Yeah, yeah. There's so many Asimos.

The most Ases. Asimos. Belinda. I don't fucking. I'm doing my best. I'm trying so hard. You're doing great. Belinda Botel. Chrissy Perry. No, Chris Perry. Not Chrissy. God damn it. That's not a girl. It's Chris. It's a dude's name. Heather Latcherite.

Michael L. Amanda Short. Fiona Grace Barnes. Dorothy Benson. Lissa Rose Rose Stephanie Davison Joanne Mullins Linda with no last name Alyssa or Eliza or Eliza or Lisa go to all of them I fucking nailed it Heather Latcher right I've already said that name I believe probably yeah I did Lisa Jessa Jessica Nottingham it's it's probably Nottingham right you can go either way on that one Nottingham. It's probably Nottingham, right? You can go either way on that one. Nottingham. We're going with that.

We'll go there. Olivia Herman, Thomas W. Karnick, Wilbur Eagleston, Ross Hughes, Justin Ryan, Candace Fitzpatrick, Michelle Gerber-Anderson, Ray Stora, Jennifer M. Faust, Rissa K. Or is that Rissa R.? Fuck. I'm a terrible writer. Melissa Sillsby. She's been donating for a while.

Thank you so much, Melissa. Appreciate you. Noel Kingman. No, it's Kingwell. Fuck. Noel Kingwell. Otter McMurder Squid. What?

Fucking what? Lucy Smith. Patrick Poitras. Poitras. Yes. Charisma J. Henderson. Kelly Boiner. Amanda Windsor. Corey Luthan Dongs.

No, it's Donges. Yes, I would say so. Alexander Elrod, Sarah Huskins, Emily Rippenhoff. Rippenhoff, yes. Yeah. And then Lauren Odom. Thank you. You guys are fucking amazing. Thank you so, so much.

Thank you so much to the entire list of hastily prepared people written quickly in Jimmy's car. We appreciate that so much through Scratchy Handwriting. He finds your names and he digs them out. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Like we said, you make this work. Without this, we don't have a shit. We have shit. We have nothing.

So thank you guys. We have two mortgages. We have two mortgages and no way to fucking pay them. So thank you guys from the bottom of our hearts. Honestly, you make this worthwhile. And the only reason crime and sports is still a thing is because you guys like it so much. Because otherwise, I would have shit canned it because it's killing me from the inside slowly. Honestly, I love it to death and you guys love it.

And I don't want to take it away from you. That's the only reason why we're still fucking doing it. Because it gets way less listens than small town murder and I don't want to take it away from you. That's the only reason why we're still fucking doing it, because it gets way less listens than small town murder and it doesn't matter. So whatever, guys. Thank you so much. Thank you for being here for us. Jimmy, what if one of these people want to get a hold of you and tell you what they think

about you? You can find me at Wisman Sucks, W-H-I-S-M-A-N Sucks on Twitter, Instagram and Snapchat. And Audioboom, you can find me there and DM me and I'll give you an address to send some fucking money. Yeah, send some checks. At Jimmy P is funny. You can DM and DM me and I'll give you an address to send some fucking money. James, what about you? At JimmyPIsFunny, you can DM me their address. I'll hit you up there. No problem. Or you can try to just copy and spell my last name from the show description

because I'm sure you don't know how to spell it, especially if you're from Audioboom because you don't have as much experience writing it on checks. So why would you know how to fucking spell it? So do that. Hit us up. We love hearing from you. Guys, thank you so much. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye.

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