Small Town Murder - #79 - Maybe Satan Did It in Dayton, Nevada

Episode Date: August 2, 2018

This week, in Dayton, Nevada, what seems like an open & shut case gets much more complicated, when the details are really looked at. Was this a bloodthirsty monster, killing for nothing but the thrill? Or was this a case of inexperienced law enforcement officers & prosecutors jumping to conclusions, based on fear & innuendo? Either way, its both infuriating & hilarious!! Along the way, we find out about how scary a "town dance" was in the 1800's, that everyone in small towns used to fear Satan above anything else, and the intricacies of certain sneakers & the prints they may or not make in the snow!!Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday!!Please subscribe, rate, and review!Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!Head to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder!For merchandise: crimeinsports.threadless.comCheck out James and Jimmie's other show: Crime in Sports Follow us on social media!Facebook: facebook.com/smalltownpodInstagram: instagram.com/smalltownmurderTwitter: twitter.com/MurderSmall Contact the show: [e-mail] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in the old mining town of Dayton, Nevada, an open and shut case turns out to be not so open and shut. Welcome to Small Town Murder.

Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy, yay indeed. My name is James Petrigal. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Westman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us on another insane edition of small town murder this is crazy today honestly this case i can tell you i had no idea what i stumbled into found a case not even on like murderpedia it's very good i just i was looking through court records and found this case and it just unravels and unravels and this is a case that if we were say journalists or

something like that we would break this shit we would break this into yeah if we if we wanted to you know seek justice in the world and things like that yeah change lives rather than just make comedy uh we would make this into a 10-part series and we would go to nevada like twice a week and talk to people and this could be serial this is like this is a better story than serial all All right. So this is it. But we can't do 10 parts on it, unfortunately. We're not going to do that. I'm not going to make that trip.

We're not going to fly to Nevada constantly. It's hot enough here. Yeah, that's what I mean. Go there. And especially this place we're going. Just as hot. Don't worry about it. But we'll get to that.

It's a crazy case. Is it a radiation zone? Like one of those fucking places? It should. Probably. It's one of those where it's probably they don't tell you it is, but it's there. Watch out. You're like, why do all my kids have cancer?

I don't understand it. I don't. I didn't grow up here. We moved here, had three kids. All have cancer by five. That seems odd. No cancer in my family. All my neighbor's kids have cancer.

Seems like a problem. But thank you folks so much for your iTunes reviews this week. They are enormously helpful to us. We've said it before. We'll say it again. But they're so huge with these charts, the way the iTunes charts work. They're a funky algorithm. It's not us.

We don't care about – we tell you, don't waste your time. It's fine, but you have to waste your time because it helps on the business end. So if you haven't done it, head over to iTunes. Give us five stars. It doesn't matter what you say. It doesn't matter what you say. If you want to be a producer of ours, a spectacular superstar like the fine list of folks that we have at the end of the show, our favorite people, you can do that very easily by going to Patreon dot com slash crime in sports, which is our other podcast, which I don't know why you're not listening to if you're not because it is. You don't have to like sports.

We promise you that also you can make a one-time donation over at paypal using our email address which is crime and sports at gmail.com right and go over to shut up and give me murder.com to get all your merchandising needs shirts and everything like that also to check out the upcoming tour dates right which we can announce the cities right now but not the dates and if you listen to crime and sports you'd already know that you would have known it two days ago. So listen to Crime and Sports. It comes out earlier. You get news and information. I enjoyed that on Facebook, too.

Where's that information? It's on Crime and Sports. You should listen. Had you listened to that, don't tell me that you listened, fucker. That's right. You didn't hear shit, did you? The numbers are great for it.

Just this one is so much more. So much more, yeah. It's crazy. More than twice as many. So we will start out our home city of Phoenix. So much more, yeah. It's crazy. Like more than twice as many. So it's, well, we will be going. We'll start out our home city of Phoenix. We have a show here. We will be in San Francisco, Portland.

Yeah. Oh, Seattle. You betcha. I know, Seattle, Minneapolis. Yeah. Chicago. Yeah. Detroit.

It's going to get colder and colder. Oh, man. Cincinnati. Yes. New York. Yeah. Boston. It's true.

Back in Philly once again, because that was awesome. We had a fun time there. Atlanta, D.C. You betcha. Did we say Cincinnati? I think we did. Cincinnati, and Houston and Dallas. And don't you dare forget Denver again.

Of course, I'd let you. God damn. No, I wasn't letting you close with Denver, because I knew you were very excited about Denver. That's fucking great. Yeah, Denver. So we're going all around. We might have missed one, or one might get chopped off of there before next week when

it officially comes out. But those are the cities. Sorry, Florida. Sorry, Kansas City. A lot of people came from both of those. Missouri and Florida are both going to happen. They'll be there, but we can't do everything at once. This is like October to right before Christmas.

So we can't go through Christmas and everything. Somebody said like some tiny ass town in tennessee and they were yeah they seemed genuinely shocked that we're not going huh lynchburg no lynchburg how how bad are you yeah y'all ain't coming to beaver falls i mean i figured y'all tennessee's great listen i've heard of asheville north carolina i don't know what you're talking about uh disclaimer quickly uh this is a comedy podcast sorry if if you don't think true crime and comedy belong together you're probably not going to like this podcast although don't expect it to be horrible and horrific and us making fun of you know victims

of horrible crimes because we don't do that we each go out of our way to make sure to not mock the victims or the victims families because we'reholes, but we're not scumbags. And that's the facts of the matter here. If you want to take a chance and hang with us, please do. You're going to have a good time. We're going to have fun. Relax and open up. After this moment, you're fucking complacent.

That's right. You're complicit. You're complicit. Well, actually, if you sat there and didn't do anything, then you're complicit and you're complicit in your complacency. So, you complicit bastards, let's get to this. Yeah. And I know what you're saying right now you're complicit in your complacency so you complicit bastards let's get to this yeah and uh i know what you're saying right now it's obvious it's time shut up james shut up and give me murder and let's do it jimmy let's go on a trip shall we oh boy we're going uh

out west this week we've been back east uh now we're going out west we're heading out to nevada okay for the second time fantastic remember sun valley, Nevada, the world's largest trailer park. That was tough. That was a tough one here. We're back in Nevada. We're not too far from Sun Valley, actually, here. We're in Dayton. That was so early in this, too.

Yeah, that was back, I don't know. It was like number two or something. No, no, that was later. I think it was in the 20s. Was it shortly after Tahoe? I think it was in the 20s, probably. Because if we did California, then I would have spaced out Nevada, I think. I don't remember. I think it was fucking super early, though. It was in the 20s, probably, because if we did California, then I would have spaced out Nevada, I think. I don't remember.

I think it was fucking super early, though. It was in the middle, yeah, toward the beginning of it. But, yeah, Dayton, Nevada we're going to. Dayton like Dayton, Ohio, of course, because no one has any originality. And they have a shitty place in Nevada after some shitty place in Ohio. After another shitty place. So everyone from Dayton, come over to Cincinnati and see us when we're there in the fall. And tell us Dayton isn't that bad.

Tell us it's not that bad and offer proof because I think then that's when the conversation will stall. What's the proof of that? It's good. I grew up there. I live there. They got a minor league hockey team. It's fantastic. A lot of fun.

Come to the games. Just because we have tolerant people that will laugh at dark things there. Well, then you're good. It doesn't make Dayton a great place. No, not a good city. The city people can be amazing we'll take the city and we'll take the people and bring them to another city where they can watch our show it'll be amazing in some places that's right well this place is in western nevada not in ohio uh western nevada over by near the california border there and that kind of the county borders california smack dab in the middle of it yeah it's in the middle right before right before it slants yeah it goes it goes there's a vertical piece of

nevada on the western side and then then it then it cuts in down toward vegas with that slant in you know toward the east diagonal turn saw it on the other side no he's like shit it goes that way this way this is right there kind of on the on the bend the elbow of nevada of western nevada if you will it's about six hours and 45 minutes to vegas in a car so it's a it's a trip to vey don't think this is like hey we're taking a trip to the casino for the weekend this is far farther away from vegas than we are in phoenix good christ this is far uh 45 minutes to reno more of a reno thing 20 minutes outside of carson city yeah so this is considered like you know a suburb of carson city yeah which is sad yeah that shouldn't have any

suburbs about an hour to sun valley which is the last one we were here it's in lion county l-y-o-n lion obviously named after a person and not a thing or a beast not the fucking not the pyramid not the pyramid uh zip code's named after it's luxor county we're in right now mgm right i think it's mgm that has the tigers right or those are lions they have the lions and tigers too i think it's got egyptian shit and pyramids right but the mgm also has the white tigers that ate siegfried oh shit yeah oh that's that that's that's them yeah yeah they drug those fuckers in there i don't't think they have them still. I don't know. I hope so. I hope they cleaned it up.

What is that? I'd watch that. That's the only way I'd watch it. A tendon dangling from a canine? I don't like that. Zip code here, 89403. Area code 775. It's a big area, 31.7 square miles.

So another big, small town. Another big place with not a lot of people in it. Of course. And it's spread out. Some of these places look like the houses look like when I was looking for the real estate report. It looks like you're watching the good, the bad, and the ugly. Lots of ranch style shit. Well, there's nothing around it.

It's not like your neighbor's right next door. It's just like this ranch with this open space all around it. Yeah, it looks like Lee Van Cleef is going to come up and threaten your family any minute now that's a deep i imagine good bad and the ugly reference there uh uh motto they they their motto that they put out is quote nevada's oldest town well no but the rest of the state has a different motto for it it is is. These people are fucking liars. They're not the world's Nevada's smallest town. So their their their motto is a lie.

Yeah. Right away. So that can't be their oldest town because it's close. Then they they switched it then to Nevada's oldest community. Like there was people here before you had. And they really tried to parse semantics at that point. And then when you do that, then you're running for Congress. No no it's not because there was natives there first oh well that's obvious communities everywhere well they don't count that jimmy jesus not they don't count savage

communities good lord no good white people who went to christian church i mean what are we talking about that's what they're yeah i believe that's what they're referring to. It's so funny that the state doesn't even recognize that at this point. They're just like, nah, fuck it. No one was here. This was barren. Nobody ever set anywhere near it before 1850. Never.

No Indian ever found it. And the natives were never here. Untouched. Untouched by native hands. It's originally called Ponderer's Rest. That's the original name of it. Ponderer's Rest. That's the original name of it. Ponderer's Rest. I don't know.

Which. And now it's Dayton. Now it's Dayton. Which one's worse? Well, at least there was a reason to call it Ponderer's Rest. But apparently it's at the western end of the 26 mile desert, which is at the bend of the Carson River, which is kind of why the border goes like that. Immigrants would stop there for water. And this was the place where you would decide whether to follow the river south or continue

west got it so this was the place where people would sit there and go what the fuck do we do now they really named a shit load of things after kit carson didn't they yeah they are fucking proud of him they don't have much else there honestly and they like we said they're not going to adopt any native history so fuck that so someone shows up for two years and they're like we said they're not going to adopt any native history so fuck that so someone shows up for two years and they're like we got to name everything after these fucking people because we have nothing else well thanks to you and and the west documentaries i know that everything's everything you hear carson that's in nevada it's it's kit carson it's all the same dude do you know why his name is kit because he couldn't fucking read and write to spell his real name. I actually heard that.

So it's Kit Carson. That's amazing. He could spell Kit, but not Carson. I love old-timey illiteracy. That's what's amazing. It's the best. Especially when they were badasses like that guy. I get being, okay, now this is going to sound bad.

I understand illiteracy, and it's a terrible thing, and blah, blah, blah. But how the fuck do you not learn by the age of being an adult how to spell your fucking name your own name just memorize that shit like when you're five like even you can't read when you memorize i knew how to spell petrogallo before i could read a fucking word because they just made me practice that one thing because i didn't know how to spell it well his name i think was christopher i think that's true i don't remember for sure But that's a fucking tough name to have as your first name. Yeah, what?

Why is it P-H? I don't understand. Why is there an H after my first letter? Well, you know what? They could have used that as a learning tool because there's a lot of pieces

of the English language there that you could have learned from that. The silent H, the P-H makes an F, all these fucking things. Lots of phonograms in that fucking word.

Oh, it's beautiful. This place was named Dayton later after a guy whose last name was Day, and he laid out the town. John Day. So Dayton, Daytown, but minus the W, Dayton. Yeah, which makes it folksy, I guess. We fucking nailed it. You drop the W and it becomes folksy, apparently, at that point. Makes people want to visit.

Absolutely. Like, ooh, I like that tun. I bet they have ice cream on Main Street down there. It smells like vanilla. that point uh makes people want to visit absolutely like oh i like that ton that makes it i bet i bet they have ice cream on main street down there it smells like vanilla yeah whole place smells like vanilla i'm going there uh 1849 abner blackburn was heading for california and he discovered a gold nugget in in uh gold creek which is one of the tributaries of the carson river and holy shit you find him came running why did he tell anyone holy shit, you find him. People came running. Why did he tell anyone?

Right. Where'd you find this? I don't know. California? That way? I don't fuck. I washed my pants. It was in the pocket.

Someone must have slipped it in there. Bananas. No fucking clue. Instead, people go crazy. Tip shit. 18, 1850, people just pile into this place. They're working sandbars. They're all over the place.

This is like they start everywhere and head in. It's from the lowliest of the guys just by a sandbar to people blowing shit up and trying to get into the ground. That is a fascinating question. It's crazy. Why do you tell a fucking soul? Why would you tell anyone you found gold? Ever. I'd be like, nothing here.

I just like digging. I don't know. It's just fun to dig. Not yet. I'm building a sandcastle. Let you know if I do. I will, definitely. And then shut the fuck up. ever i'd be like nothing here i just like digging i don't know it's just fun to dig not yet i'm building the sandcastle let you know if i do i will definitely and then shut the fuck up a lot of this pyrite though a ton of this shit i find bags of it no my kids like it i take it home in sacks don't worry about it like fucking full of shit i like to dupe my dumb kids that's it i'm independently wealthy and i this is what i do some people go for seashells this is my seashells fake gold why would you ever tell a soul i would sit there with a shotgun and shoot everyone that

approaches hey buddy you know wouldn't no questions asked hey how you doing shit bow just get the fuck away from me my gold sit there like uh scrooge mcduck at the top of my pile even go get that shit smelted down to make teeth. I would yank my own teeth out and just jam nuggets in there. Right out of the river. Yeah, fuck yes. Just jam them in there. Bang, done. Just misshapen gold seed.

But that would have been a sign of some serious wealth back then. This is a great grill. You would have been the best rapper ever in 1850. I don't even melt it down. Nugget grill. What up, nug grill? Call me nugget. That's it, man.

I haven't seen nugget. Some reason he told these people, minersors, including some of these names. I found one, including a guy named James Old Virginia Finney. Yeah. Old, old Virginia. Because it rhymes. Wow. Old Virginia is probably from Virginia.

I assume he was one of the guys who was prominently working the area. Old Virginia. Jesus Christ. So they call this the first non-native american settlement is what they're trying to say now there you go and that's still disputed it's still bullshit i have i found in their historical archives records of certain things that are really mundane and hilarious like nevada's first dance was held in this town well the first dance in the whole state first time we got a bunch of white people pale-faced fucks to pretend that they know how to dance and this probably resulted in horrific

rapes is all i can imagine because listen to the statistics of this okay the tons of people started coming because of the gold so the people hanging out there they built a trading post and all this sort of shit uh and they had New Year's Eve, 1853. They had a dance and it was attended by 150 men and nine women. Oh, Jesus. Think about how unsafe that is. Drinking whiskey, armed whiskey drinking men. And I'm not even saying at the dance, but when they said goodnight and those girls walked off, I don't know.

They probably make it five feet. They didn't make it five feet before they were swooped up on a horse and taken to a cave somewhere. Oh, my God. That was horrible. They just like circle the wagons and then everybody dances in the middle. And you got the girls on one side of the wagons. All nine of them.

All nine of them. And then 150 horny drunk dudes. With their cocks out. Shouting horrible things. How many of them had their cocks out? Just jerking it at them. Like, come on. I don't even care if you touch me. I't seen a woman in six months i don't give a fuck a lower number is the ones that do yeah it's probably a smart move less than nine i'll tell you that less gentleman oh my god women you know that imagine being a woman yeah i'm gonna go

to this dance i don't know hopefully there's some nice guys there and you show up and you're like are more more of us are showing up, right? This is no, no, no, no. And they're all just all standing there drooling. I wouldn't want to be one of nine at any party when 150 are the opposite. Never. That would be scary. Especially if it's a frontier men.

These are like, they're all dirty. Imagine the smell in that room from these guys. They came out of the sandbars. You think there was a room? I think that's adorable. Well, it was. It was a hall. Oh, really?

It was held at his trading post. Okay. So there was a roof. There was a roof for this. Yeah. I don't know if there was walls, but there was at least cover for rainfall. Gross. So they had the first marriage there in 1854.

That was first in the whole state. There was a girl. Her father was away on business, and her mother had died. She was 14 years old. And so some local miner persuaded her to marry him while her father was away on business. While he's away. While he's away. What an asshole.

So he's basically kidnapped a 14-year-old girl, some scumbag. Watch Deadwood. Those guys are all dirtbags. Unbelievable. Some scumbag miner came, frontierless fucking ball smelling as a dude. Even if you're a businessman, your wife dies and all you've got is a daughter. Take her. You leave her.

You just leave a 14 year old in a mining town. Have you seen the dance, sir? It's not safe here. Fuck is going on. Jesus. He was at the dance. Yeah, he was. I've just seen that 14-year-old girl.

I hope she wasn't. Jesus. Good Christ. So they get married, but once the girl's father returns, he took his daughter away and made the marriage go away and moved her to California. That a boy. And yeah, he just said, get the fuck out of here. Way to dad.

I'm taking my daughter away from kidnappers. This is clearly not safe. Imagine if you went away imagine if we go on tour for three days and you come back and your daughter's married to a guy who was prospecting in the hills you'd be like what the fuck happened unless he's the dude with all the gold nuggets yeah unless he's scrooge mcduck right give her then we'll talk about it maybe i mean if he's gonna take care of her you can and we can have like a uh like a an intent a letter of intent where you can see it maybe in 18 years.

When she's 18, you can have the first. You can come over first. So you can judge. Give your pitch. All right, maybe. Come give your pitch. We'll sit her down. You can come.

You can give your presentation. If she likes you, fine. If not, take a fucking hike. If she's not too old for you. Either way, it's going to cost you a lot of gold. You fucking pedophile. Yeah, that's the other thing. Yeah.

So 1850s, 1857, Chinese miners came to the area to avoid mining taxes that were directed at the Chinese in California. In California, they leveled special taxes against the Chinese for mining. What? Yeah. They were like, well, you can mine and blah, blah, blah. Chinese, that'll cost you a little extra. Come here there, Ching Chong. Hand over them nuggets.

Are they citizens of China or are they citizens of America? doesn't matter it just doesn't matter if your eyes are goofy i see them slanty eyes i ain't giving a shit where you're from or where you floated from it's gonna cost you extra if your eyelids are inside out you're paying more you're paying extra that's crazy that's so that was the thing yeah i don't know what what the fuck they were thinking with that but that's what they used to do there used to be poll taxes to keep people from voting i mean this is that's racism that's that's america yeah this is america here so uh they leveled that on all of those people and then uh so the chinese started coming to nevada across the border it's just right there they're like let's walk over there where there's no tax by 1860 the town was mostly chinese miners really of date and yet it

was called chinatown uh in the u.s census that year they didn chinese miners really of date and yet it was called chinatown uh in the u.s census that year they didn't even call it date and they called it chinatown if you look there's like this town this town chinatown it's so racist so racist they're just like i don't know it's a chimichang changa town and then they were like no that's mexican i don't know it starts with a d i think no, not anymore. We're going to rename it right now. Yeah, right now at Chinatown. You know, I can never remember what its real name is. I'm going to do one so that I remember it, and we'll tell everyone. And that's the census man that did that. That's not a hillbilly miner.

It's counting. That's the guy who's being paid to count. Probably has some sort of diploma from somewhere. Chinatown. Chinatown. to count probably has some sort of diploma from somewhere chinatown chinatown uh so they ended up people the uh they started making goods and services for the miners because they realized that was more profitable than mining to sell people shit to go waste their money in mine because mining's a hard it's hard and it doesn't it doesn't always pay off whereas if you sell a guy a shovel it doesn't matter if he you finds anything or not. You're making money from it.

So that's kind of smart. So 1861, they officially adopted the name of Dayton after a local surveyor. But that's when the census had stopped doing that. I hope they sent out some news to everybody. Jesus Christ, right? Holy, that's fucking amazing. That's unbelievable. In 1866 and 1870, they had great fires.

Unbelievable. In 1866 and 1870, they had great fires. Both of them were great fires that destroyed the town kind of both times, which they did back then. They're all flammable. Everything is flammable. Everything's made of wood. It's Nevada. Everything's bone dry, and they're all smoking.

It's going to happen. And you need fire to keep warm in the winter. That's a good point. There's so many ways for fire to destroy this fucking town. It was a lot less, by the 1870s, because of these fires, it became a lot less prosperous. People left. It wasn't the same. The mines weren't producing. That's the other thing, too.

These mines, they don't just last forever. You go in, you take all the shit out, and they're like, all right, that's it. Now it's just a hole. Yeah, now it's a hole in the ground, and it's a park you take the kids to you go people used to come here and rape 14 year olds aren't you lucky to be born when you're born not just that uh if you were asian you paid more for everything that's it oh by the way the asians lucky you're not not only would they rape there's a rape tax for asians if you're raped as an asian they'll tax you for it you have to pay for you have to pay for it so now you know they don't report it a lot because there's a tax and you i see your inside out it's not good so the population here the the they had

a railroad come through here in 1881 which brought some people back but until up until world war one there was still only about 500 people here so it. So it remained kind of, you know. World War I. World War I. So, you know, 1914, 15, 16. 1909, a fire destroyed the courthouse, obviously, the Lyon County Courthouse, because in 1905 to 1910, most of the country was burned down several times. Just constant fires.

Well, the light at night was fires. The heat is fires uh yeah like you said they everybody fucking smoked everything yeah uh there's just way too much fire that's prevalent that's what it is and to make your building out of fuel for fire is crazy and then it's all dry 1865 there was about 2500 people here and then after the fires, everything went down. And it didn't come back up again to 2,500 until about 1930. Wow. So that's how long it took. And that's only because people started coming through as tourists because that's when the gold rush became kind of a cool thing.

In California. Yeah, people went out west to go see shit. It became a tourist spot. It was like Dodge City type of thing. They just came to check it out. It became a tourist spot. It was like Dodge City type of thing. They just came to check it out.

1961, Dayton was the setting for The Misfits, which was a John Huston film. It was the last film appearances of both Clark Gable and Marilyn Monroe. Is that right? Yeah, that's what it was based on. And it was in this town? It was in this town. Yeah, super weird. Now, it's strange. Huge growth in the 90s because a bunch of residential development started coming in other towns,

and it kind of spread to here because before this, we'll talk about it here. In 1970, there was 826 people here. So nobody here. In 1990, there was 2,217 people here. So not bad. Right now, there is 8,972 people here. It's booming. So it's booming so it's booming from 90 like all the west towns look at phoenix 1990 a million people now four and a half million people like

that and now we have unbelievable dust storms that white yeah and trees that fuzz we've talked about hundred year old trees seen that before this is crazy i've never seen a tree fucking up like the whole root that's what happened here out of of the ground. You drove past that. They knew it's crazy. Yeah. Every time there's a storm here now, trees that lasted 100 fucking years. Now they're getting pulled out. I've never seen that before.

That's not normal. Something's wrong. By the way, the residents of Genoa point to the region's first post office and several other aspects of town government, noting their community deserves the title of Nevada's first town. Dayton go fuck themselves. Genoa wants it. Genoa wants it.

There's records of wagon trains that arrived three weeks earlier. We're going to split hairs on a week. Jesus. But they're fighting about this because they have nothing, these towns. They're like, we need a claim to fame, so I'm going to be the oldest. You named your town after salami. You can go fuck yourself, too. Well, it's a region of Italy also. I'm sure there was three Italian guys You can go fuck yourself, too. Well, it's a region of Italy, also.

I'm sure there was three Italian guys, probably. Whatever. Came over and said, Oh, we name it. It's a general. What kind of pasta do you have in your pocket? I got a rigatoni. Oh, mine's a cavatelli.

Never mind. That's an old reference of us identifying Italians. People that carry spaghetti. Well, no. When you're sent away from Italy, when you're sent to America, your family stuffs pasta in your pocket. And you match up the type of pasta with your family in America on the other side.

And that's how you know. Luigi, Luigi. And he's like, I'm a Luigi. He's like, you're my cousin Luigi. And he's like, I don't know. And he pulls out and he's like, oh, no, it's rigatoni. Farfalla. He's like, oh, shit, I got farfalla.

Yeah, never mind. They go their separate ways. Yeah, that's an old theory of mine. I asked my grandmother if that's what happened when she came over from italy and she said well what are you talking about okay never mind so i didn't pan out so population is up 305 since 1990 which is a shitload median age is pretty average 38.8 uh more males than females for some by a good margin too it's like almost 53 percent male which is a little bit out of whack must be some outdoor shit going on a few more widowed people than normal uh more married

people than usual it's kind of an older demographic when it comes to that sort of thing race of the town as you might expect it's pretty white yeah uh what do you expect here white and 86 yeah it's 79 79 percent white so we're pretty close and spaniards there you go that's a .62 black so not a lot of my goodness and chinatown is currently.20 asian so that happens when you tax them they fucking run flee i would too a couple about one percent native american and then you're going to get about 16 hispan Hispanic so it's pretty close to the average on their religion in this town. 21.1% religious. That's what I'm talking about.

There you go, Nevada. Drive it down. My kind of place. Now I know why I live out west for shit like that. They got Reno real close by. There's no Vegas that way. There's for sure no God. Have you been over there? I mean, Jesus, Reno. It's all trailers and casinos and fucking brothels, man. There sure no God. Have you been over there? I mean, Jesus, it's all trailers and casinos and fucking brothels, man.

There is no God. Trust me. 7% Catholic, 16% Hispanic, 7% LDS because it's the West and that's what happens there. They hide out in those mountains like nobody's business. About 34% of the people here voted Democrat in the last election, about 63% Republican. That is interesting. It is interesting because Nevada goes Democratic a lot. They really like those casinos and whores.

You know what I mean? Yeah. You get some gambling and whores, and those are not Republican things. Oh, they are Republican things? Weird! They just hide it. Oh, shit. second they just had it they just had it so oh shit yeah unemployment rate 8.6 percent which is way higher than the uh five percent in the rest of the country um they have negative job growth

here which isn't spectacular also um household income median household income is about fifty thousand dollars which is pretty close to the fifty four thousand dollar average a lot of jobs in manufacturing uh twice as many in retail trade because it's kind of a tourist town with all the mining and all that shit like that you know come see the old i don't know come see where thousands of chinese died for no reason come see where we argue constantly about us being the oldest and we text chinese to die in a mine overall on the uh cost of living here 100 being average par normal normal, 103 here. So pretty close to the average.

Housing is 107, so that's pretty close. The median home cost here is $277,000. 216 is the average in the United States. And so with that, you have a lot of houses in the $100,000 to $200,000 range. More than 50% of them are in there. So if you're a middle class affordable housing, and if we've convinced you that you need to go, I don't know, mine for something. I at least want to see it. Well, then you, sir, need the Dayton, Nevada Real Estate Report. two-bedroom apartment here is just below the national average it's about eleven hundred sixty dollars for a two-bedroom apartment which i don't know a place like this that seems

unreasonable i don't think so uh three-bedroom two-bath house i found here eleven hundred square feet it's a nice clean house it's kind of on the outskirts it's not really close to much so It's a nice, clean house. It's kind of on the outskirts. It's not really close to much, so it's a little cheaper. $130,000 for this. Not bad, though. It's three bedrooms. Good little starter home. I found a four-bedroom, two-bath, 1,824-square-foot house. It's a nice little house. It's got a

purple garage door, which is really weird. The rest of the house is all normal, and it has this light, pale shit purple garage door like fucking lavender it's it's almost lavender although i have a problem with purples and blues and they look alike to me so i don't know it might be light blue it's definitely a purple yeah but it's i'm not sure which which purple because i can't see that shit straight stop with your accent door stop with your bright red door. Stop with your... Right. Fucking have a normal door.

For that door, you're going to pay $283,900 for this purple-doored mess. And you're going to have to repaint. And you're going to have to, first thing, paint that garage door. Found a four-bedroom, three-bath, 2,000, basically 900-square-foot house on five acres of land. And this is just

a house sitting in the middle of dirt. It's just plopped there. $533,500. Wonderful. Nice house, a lot of land. Not terrible, I guess, if you want to live in the desert. Half a million dollars for some space. That's pretty decent.

For a little bit of space, a little bit of room to breathe. Things to do. It's a lot of tourist shit. You can pick up a self-guided walking tour at the Dayton Museum. Just pick up a brochure. You can'tguided walking tour at the Dayton Museum. Self. Just pick up a brochure. You can't call it a tour. No, it's a brochure telling you go walk and see this shit.

Go fuck yourself. It's terrible. What is that? You can see one of Nevada's oldest cemeteries, camel stables for some reason, and old railroad depots and firehouses, an 1865 schoolhouse. Oh, boy. Walk the streets blazed by explorers, immigrants, miners, pony express riders, and Wells Fargo stages.

You forgot whores and thieves and gamblers. And you mentioned no Chinese either. Mostly Chinese people. What about them? Crime ratents. They want to cover them all in immigrant? Is that what it is? I think that's what it is.

Blanket it. Blanket it. Just say cover the trail blazed by immigrants because everybody's an immigrant especially in the 1800s nobody's really been here that long by the 200 years tops you've been here so you know not much so crime rate in this town property crime right about average for the country uh violent crime murder rape robbery assault the mount rushmore of crime is much higher than average like 25 higher than average it's it's really high for some reason i don't understand exactly what's happening in this town i just thought why don't we have a shirt that has like mount rushmore and it has like the words murder rape robbery and that's weird never thought to do that would be a great oh you know what we have mount rushmore already has them on it oh fuck that's right murder that one's rape

it's thomas joe yeah that's a rape one that one's right oh boy it's a lot of rape in that one oh man so we already have robbery all of them i guess for robbery assault for sure assault i'm sure they're throwing their weight around at some point here, especially the older ones. They're wives, for sure. Assault was just the way you did business back then. That's how you live. That's how you lived. That's how you lived, Jimmy. I like it.

Assaulting anyone in your path. Back then it was true, though. I mean, I just gave him a good knuckling. It was like, I don't understand what the problem is. A little rap on the mouth. Yeah, I don't know. Rap? What's the problem?

I don't get it. Yeah, he was whack a guy with your cane. That just solves it. You could shoot a guy. He knew He was whack a guy with your cane. You could do it. Solves it. You could shoot a guy if he knew it was coming. I told him I was going to shoot him. We went out in the street and he agreed to it. So hold yours.

I'll hold mine. And then I murdered him. That's how adult you got treated back then. You could enter into an agreement with a man that you're going to try to kill each other. One of us is dead after this. If you died, they'd be like, well, he said it was fine. So no charges for you, sir. And that's over all kinds of shit.

They call it fair fight out west. Fair fight. It's a fair fight. We was legal. It's a fair fight. We was legal. He cursed me for a liar and crawfished on a bet. What the fuck are you talking about?

That's some tombstone shit right there. fished on a bet what the fuck are you talking about who cares nowadays you could go to a bar yeah getting a guy could challenge you to a fight you guys could step outside put both put your hands up he could trip over his own feet coming in to punch you fall down crack his head open and die and you'd get charged with a fucking crime not only do you not even have to touch him it's it's fucking and we've gone to another level. His family will sue you and ruin everybody in your family's lives. No. What is it? What do they call that?

Aggravated murder. No, but it's like wrongful death. Wrongful death. That's the word. We all need to be adults. Can we all be adults from now on? I'd love that. And if two grown people agree that they don't like each other and want to throw, not that

we should all be punching each other and violence is the answer, but if two people agree the only way that we're going to solve our issues is with a fist fight, no one else should be involved. That's your problem. The key to that, too, is the two people. It's not just the purge. You don't just go out and be like, yeah, they're right. Let's just fucking eliminate people.

No. No. It's an agreement. It's an agreement. You've entered into a contract. It can be verbal. yeah, they're right. We're just, let's just fucking eliminate. No, no. It's an agreement. It's an agreement. You entered into a contract. It can be verbal. I don't get it. But if you do it.

Everybody's got a phone today. If I give each of you $5 and put a camera up, then it's a sport. So what the fuck's the difference? I don't get it. It's still an agreement between two adults that they're going to have a fight. Why is it different? I don't get it. Everyone carry around documents with you.

Will you please sign this first thing? Well, you've all got a camera. Yeah. Just just record it do you agree that start an llc right and then say you're just do that it's under this company and then there you go now it's now also too then they just have to sue the llc at that point instead of you right protect yourselves i have some documentation okay murder legalzoom.com legal so we don't do that at all we have no legal people, so we can't endorse anything like that. But I've heard they exist, so knock yourself out. You might need them. Hey, everybody.

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small town murder for ten dollars off your order and now back to the show let's talk about a murder here in this town and like i said this is one that you read it at first and i read everything and i read the court documents and you read through the case and you're like okay that's pretty fucking clear what happened here this is obvious and then you start to read further and further and then there's a judge later on in an appeal that has even further thoughts on it and you start going what happened here what the fuck did there's no there's no explanation for this this is some sort of weird supernatural shit that went on here. Or there's an obvious answer, and everybody overlooked it to point the finger at the easy target.

Or there's an explanation that no one's thought of yet. We'll talk about it. Let's get into this here. This is fascinating already. It's fucking weird, man. It's in Nevada, and this is that snows here. Let's talk also. This isn't like, don't think of vegas because

people think of nevada they automatically think of vegas think reno 911 also okay because nevada is way more like reno 911 than it is like anything that happens in vegas because nevada is mainly just a white trash trailer park it is the whole rest of it pretty much the western united states is a giant it's it's like people trying to erase whatever failures they've had back east and we're included in this now don't get me wrong we're not taking shots i'm from new york and i moved here because i had nowhere else to go and it's 10 miles off the coast yeah 10 miles off the coast for and and further is awful it's awful in any direction right where that's what i mean we're never taking shots at anybody because everywhere is awful and we understand there's like three nice places in the entire country and really

in the world there's like 12 and most places suck the majority of them are right next to water that's the thing yeah water makes things nice once you get away from the water people start to get a little upset that they're not on the water well yeah and also the land is like oh now it's flat and weird and dry and gross. But that's a matter of taste. Some people like that. They like to see wide open space. Some people like that.

Good for you. Who the fuck knows? These people apparently like this. They were in a snowy, this is February of 1993, in a snowy small town of Dayton, Nevada. We'll talk about David Kopach first. David Kopach's a Vietnam veteran. He lives in a trailer in Dayton. He has a son named Jason, teenage son, who lives with him as well. David, the father, is awoken on the night of February,

or the morning, I guess you'd say, of February 23rd. He's awoken by a noise. It's at 1.23 a.m. He remembers looking at the clock like everybody. If you wake up, you look at the clock. You don't remember anything, but you remember I woke up at 3.41 last night. Like you, for some reason, like that sticks in your mind. Maybe because it's dark and it's like emblazoned bright green or red or something numbers.

And you're hoping that it's like 10 and you still have a lot more sleep to go and then you see 341 and you're like fuck please don't be 5 30 please don't be well he saw 123 so he must have been like okay uh but he said it was a loud noise but he didn't know what it was he just woke up to a noise you know when you wake up to a noise you have to hear that noise again to know what the fuck that noise was. So that's what happened with this guy. He woke up and didn't know what the hell happened. He thought maybe it was a cat jumping on the roof of the shed next to his bedroom window. Because outside of his trailer window, there's like a tin shed.

And if some skeezy trailer cat jumped onto it, apparently that would wake him up at night night, which is so fucking depressing that this poor man fought in a war. And now he is living in a place where there's a tin shed's roof feet from his head while he sleeps, where a cat could just wake him up at any time. A feral, not just any cat. Not even his cat. Right. It's a trailer park fucking rat. That's what they are. So, fuck, man.

They're terrible individuals. Right away, I feel for this guy. Like, I'm like, shit. F are. So, fuck, man. They're terrible individuals. Right away, I feel for this guy. Like, I'm like, shit. Feral cats are vile. Yeah. They're so gross. And it's funny, too, because I like cats. I love cats.

I love all animals. My old house, remember we had that feral kitten that kept running away? Yeah, Ed, though. He was a sweetheart. Ed was the best. Well, we had that other one that came around who was like a feral cat who would run away, and after a couple months, I got him to come up to me, and then he was really nice. Really?

And then he disappeared, and I hope somebody took it. I think I remember that one. A little fluffy one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Ed was just a feral cat who would run away and after a couple months I got him to come up to me and then he was really nice. Really? And then he disappeared and I hope somebody took him. I think I remember that one. A little fluffy one. And then Ed was just a cool cat. But like feral. Ed was somebody's. I'm talking about like feral, feral.

Yeah, that's another kind of animal. Yeah. That's another kind of animal. Yeah. That's like a raccoon. Yeah. It's a raccoon. You don't know what their last meal was.

No. Like it's not. They would, I don't think they care what the fuck their next meal is. No. It was probably a pigeon. Yeah.

A pigeon, something rank. Something gross. It was already dead. It was hit by a car. Jesus Christ. One of those. Spay or neuter your kittens, everybody. And make sure this doesn't happen.

I feel bad for these poor cats. And take care of your cats. That's what we're getting. Yeah. We don't want all the cats to be gotten rid of. We want them to be taken care of. Yeah. Yes.

Pet your kitties. Okay. Moving on. So this is 1.23 23 a.m cat on a shed uh he thought it was either the cat on a shed or maybe something like uh else blowing against the shed maybe like a some debris you're in the middle of a fucking you know this is not there's not a lot of landscape there's some mountains in this area and it's pretty goddamn flat so winds pick up we live in arizona it's the same type of thing shit gets windy and debris will fly through the air and in a trailer park there's just tons of loose debris it's everywhere it's everywhere because yeah when you get i am blown away by by what trailer parks look like like

they're they're nice ones that have elderly people no they're super clean what about when we drove when we're driving la we drove through that town with the dispensary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there was like trailer parks that looked like trailers that are nicer than my house. Unbelievable. I'm like, oh God, these are really nice.

Yeah, that's a trailer? Wow. And then there's trailers that I work in. Oh, yeah. It's crazy what people just throw in their backyard. Oh, nobody cares. A full-size bathtub that did not go in that trailer ever not once collecting bathtubs and it's

in the back upside down rusty and it's not even like upside down like laying on it on its top flush it's like off off kilter how is that possible just tossed a tub on top of the other crap we got there it's just shit on top of all sorts of stuff yeah put it on top of 10 speed bicycle that's perfect yeah exactly perfect gotta hold it down and the and the the fucking tub is older than that that bike yeah they don't match like eras it's just bizarre like why do you still have either of those they collect over many many years i feel like crazy this guy i i feel so bad for him honestly i just do he he's awakened by the noise this guy uh david and uh he says that he walked out in the living room, but he didn't he didn't see anything weird or notice anything. He said that he doesn't know.

He said he thought he walked into the living room, but then he says, maybe I didn't walk in the living room later on. He's like, I'm not sure if I walked in the living room, but I do know that I did definitely look out my bedroom window. And but I didn't know what the noise was. So I don't know what else happened after that. I didn't see anything. He woke up, looked at the clock, looked out the window and then went back to sleep. I mean, he was like groggy and went out there. But that's when he lost his like awake momentum from being woken up and he started drifting back off into into what he was doing here.

So the next morning uh he wakes up he you know gives a stretch here he walks out his son is uh sleeping in the living room uh on the floor and uh he says that he walked over his son's legs three different times to get to the coffee machine get to the kitchen get to the bedroom because as we'll talk about it's a very small trailer this is not a big trailer it is 10 by it's 10 feet by 50 feet so that is not a lot it's not a big trailer at all it's awfully weird for well i guess it's long yeah it's almost like a like a tractor trailer yeah it's with like 10 feet very narrow for an entire residence just a single wide it's an old single

it's an old scott timey single wide yeah it's that's exactly what it is uh so he said that he did all of that his son was on the floor he said he got his cup of coffee he sat down and watched television he said within a maybe a foot from his son who was on the floor there um you know didn't notice anything was awry uh nothing like that uh the father's bedroom like we said is just a short distance down the hall from the living room. And also, he doesn't have a door to his bedroom. That's the other thing. This is a man, like I said, this man fought in a war, and he has a curtain covering his door. That's sad. No privacy whatsoever.

No privacy from his son. I don't know. This sounds like a nightmare. And a tin shed within feet of his head that can wake him up if something knocks on him. Anything. Cats, rats, garbage. and a tin shed within feet of his head that can wake him up if something knocks on anything cats rats garbage this is not the life i feel like he envisioned this country loves to make veterans and hates to take care of them i would say so and i don't know what his deal is but it didn't work out well for him here so uh he's he just no he wouldn't he would have noticed if there was a

anything going on crazy in the living room, it would have been hard for him to not notice being that it's right there. A and B, there's not even a fucking hollow core trailer door between him and that. It's a curtain. And also he's kind of jumpy. He says that he wakes up from noises. He was in Vietnam. He's got like a, you know, he hears like things and he gets up ready for combat.

He says, like, of course, you know, if you hear something that might be boom he's like oh shit where do i go what do i do like so many cats have lost their lives oh he's snapping necks i just see see him crawling through the trailer park snapping necks going that's right take that vietcong and they're like he called all cats carly he's tilting their heads i don't understand so uh he says he doesn't notice anything uh he said that uh just doesn't notice anything and then he uh ends up noticing that uh and he notices that his son's not moving yeah and he's moving around the living room and the tv's on and his son hasn't moved at all okay and so he tries to wake him up and he can't wake him up because his son is dead on the floor of the trailer very little little living room. Very little blood that he noticed wrapped in a blanket like he's sleeping on the floor.

He said he saw his feet sticking out. He had no shoes on. So it's like, yeah, he fell asleep on the floor. First of all, that's not great living conditions for a teenager. I don't think on a school night, especially feel like they need to get better rest than that. At least be on the couch. At least be on the couch. But I don't know.

This kid wanted to sleep on the floor. And who the fuck knows? The son, too, jason for everybody said he's a nice kid uh he's he's uh he's got long hair like i saw the picture of him he's got super long hair um he likes like dnd and he's a dungeons and dragons kid he likes like that kind he likes like kind of you know metal shit like music and like he's just a. Like, he's not a bad kid. Nothing wrong with him. You know, but his interests. Yeah, it's 1993. It's 93. It's like sleeping in a pristine bed and hygiene aren't like his main concern.

She's a 1993 kid. It was like 15, 16 years old. Who's just fucking hanging out with his long hair. And, you know, yeah, we all knew that kid. Sure. A hundred of them, actually. Good God. I can't. I can't even count. That's in a, we all knew that kid. Sure. A hundred of them, actually. Good God, I can't even count.

In a guar shirt or something like that. Picture a friendly Jason Mewes. Okay. I picture Jason, like when I saw his picture, he's like a Jason Mewes from Clerks. Like he's that as a picture, but not. Did you just tell us that you had a bad experience with Jason Mewes? I didn't, no. Well, his character in the movie is like,

hey, I'm going to fuck your mother in the mouth, especially from Clerks. He's a total asshole in Clerks. Great character and funny, but I'm not a cool kid. Except for the sequel to Clerks. In the sequel, he's fucking great. I refuse to watch that fucking sequel. Is it the second?

Is there three? I will not watch. Is there three of them? I don't know, because I won't watch past one. That's not a sequel movie. It's a movie about people. I love the movie movie but you don't make a sequel out of that just because it's the only intellectual property that you have that fucking has any value to it sorry i like kevin smith and everything like that but you know what you did you know clerks too wasn't necessary come

up with another fucking idea you're a smart guy and you're talented as fuck and i get that you just shrug and go all right fine i'llks, too, and make a bunch of money. But you know what? Stop it. Whichever one had the donkey show. So let's keep making Small Town Murder every week. To show what hypocrites we are. It's great, though.

But I don't care. Jason Mewes pulls his dick out of some girl, and then there's shit everywhere. And it's fantastic. It's hilarious. No, he's funny. He is funny i give him credit too because he he actually went from like being severely uncomfortable obviously in front of the camera to you know now he seems comfortable he seems like he knows that character he can play

it confidently he's getting it yeah which it only took 15 years so good job the girl that he pulls out of is the girl from crybaby that was in that uh porno that is illegal because she was like 16 or something like that tracy lord yes oh wow yeah yeah she was in a lot of porn before they realized that she was a teenager but there's some the the specific one is it behind the green door is that no that's the one from the 70s what's the one that she was in that was uh i don't know what it's called that that was controversial because the girl was the ivory soap girl and behind the green door oh is that right yeah she was the ivory soap in a big ivory soap ad and then now she's getting

obscured by fucking black dudes. Early porn is disgusting. It's super weird and gross and it was very weird. It all had a weird vibe to it of some straight, everyone had a costume.

It was just not okay. Well, it just felt like it was, they seemed to be like, we can't believe this is legal but you can buy this hey watch this so just embracing the freedom yeah that's a good point

they're like we're only doing this because we think it's going to get taken away almost like they had to like and then they would try to like put like an artistic spin on it like they had big budgets and shit like this could be like a real movie no it's not as soon as somebody's dick visibly goes into a vagina, it's not a real movie anymore. And it's not just that.

Sorry. It's that that is the showcase. And you're going to film only that until it's over? That's the punch. It's just porn. Everything else is the setup for that punchline. That's called porno. That is pornography.

So enjoy. Which is fine. We're not against pornography by any stretch of the imagination. It's fantastic. But it's just gross. Right. I don't want to watch it. So he basically the way he's looking in this thing, he doesn't understand how this would have happened.

He thinks, oh, shit, I woke up at one twenty three. Maybe that's the problem. They bring the he calls the police. Obviously, they come into the situation. There's no blood trails. there's for anything like that they look at that notice that right away uh initially they they they see that he's got some wounds and some small wounds and they start looking for like a rock or some sort of blunt instrument that they could find you know uh with that they can find for around as a murder weapon.

He was shoeless. He's wrapped in a blue blanket. They find no signs of a struggle at all at the scene. They find an oval-shaped wound in the back of the left shoulder. And the investigating officers initially believed that Jason had been killed with a crowbar or a blunt instrument, and that's what they were searching for when they did that. But what they ended up doing later on, they do x-rays of the victim, and they realized that Jason had several number six shotgun pellets and plastic wadding from a 20-gauge

shotgun recovered from his body. Once they did the x-rays, they found this. Where was that at? In his back. That was the oval-rays they found this where was that at in his in his back that was the oval shape wound there uh so when they had the autopsy they figured out that his he had been shot from a distance of 2 to 18 feet which is not really that accurate 2 to 18 they said based uh it depends on the spray of the particular gun and the particular there's a lot of different variables that's a fucking distance though though. Two to 18 feet.

Yeah, it wouldn't have been 18 feet in the trailer. That would have been the whole trailer. And they said it probably happened around 1.30 a.m., which is the same time Jason's father was awakened by what he thought was the cat jumping on the roof. Now, this is the weird part. There's no blood trail to this body. There's a child on the ground dead with a shotgun wound in his back. No blood trail to this body there's a child on the ground dead right with a shotgun

wound in his back no blood trail wasn't dragged there how the fuck did the father the father was awoken by a shotgun blast i feel like he wouldn't confuse that with a cat on a tin roof a guy that was in in vietnam right that knows what and especially inside of a tin trailer yeah that you know fucking loud it's gonna echo a 20 gauge shotgun blast would be in a tin trailer that, you know, fucking loud, a 20 gauge shotgun blast would be in a tin trailer in the middle of the night. You would fuck it. That thing, you would wake up and it would still be reverberating. You wouldn't have to go.

Can you make that noise again? Because just be patient. It's coming right back. It's going to echo off the other side of the trailer. Fuck. And especially if you have a curtain, you don't even have a goddamn door. Like there's definitely going to be something. It seems a shotgun blast would probably be heard by anyone in that type of a small area which is the

super fucking weird part and no notice from that also when he woke up when the father woke up in the middle of the night he did not smell gunpowder at the time they asked him did you smell gunpowder and he knows what gunpowder smells like he was like oh i was a numb if there's gunpowder i'll smell it uh he then uh also when he came out in the morning he still didn't smell gunpowder which he would still smell gunpowder in a closed trailer because it's it's uh it's the middle of the winter there's not windows open or anything so he never smelled gunpowder so all of this is very fucking weird you know he was a gunner in vietnam so he's like i know gunpowder he's around it all the time i was around it constantly so it's and it's right there too the bedroom was

such a short short way it's so strange that no one would have heard this and that's what makes it super odd especially with the with the blood trail no blood trail no nothing it had to be right there yeah they said and also they said the said the blue fibers that matched the blanket were found on the shotgun wadding removed from his body. So he was wearing that, too. So the blanket was around him. The pellets went through the blanket into his body. Got it. Also, and the lividity in his feet was consistent with where the body was discovered was consistent with that's where the death occurred.

What is validity? That is where it's a technical medical term for how his feet were laying, how the blood was laying and where he was. The outline of his feet, right. Yeah, because they can tell if you were moved and then moved into another location. So they can tell where he was. They were like, okay, this is all consistent with he died here and was left here. There was no dragged and placed. He wasn't set up. they can tell where he was. They were like, okay, this is all consistent with he died here and was left here. There was no dragged and placed.

He wasn't set up. There was no staging or anything like that. So this is right now we have the weirdest shit ever. Lots of questions for dad at minimum. A ton of questions for dad, I would say. Definitely. But they contact the neighbors for additional clues here to figure out what happened. They talked to Mr. Bradley. This guy lived about 30 feet from the trailer.

He said that he heard nothing out of the ordinary during the previous night. 30 feet. 30 feet. Didn't hear shit. I would assume everyone in the fucking trailer park would hear the shotgun blast, I would think. I also said there was no written report of this interview, which is weird. No written report of it. But Bradley will come up later on and we'll talk about him.

And also the substance of this was not relayed to the defense because it wasn't taken down. So they questioned this guy. They said they heard. He said, I heard nothing. And they didn't document it or let the defense know that there was a guy 30 feet away that didn't hear a shotgun blast. That's illegal, which seems like that's a little bit shady. And there's going to be a bunch of things like that where we're like, well, that doesn't seem right.

Well, this doesn't seem right. Fuck. Where, you know, this is one of these, like, I don't know if Adnan did it or not. And you're like, it's equal on both sides. It doesn't make any sense. The answer, though, like the other side is just always, well, then fucking who did? That's the thing. And there's, there's, this is one of those cases where it's just like that.

We could go on for days with this thing because it's very much if you hear one side of the case, you go, oh, yeah, he definitely did it. And then you hear the other side of the case and you go, there's no possible physical way he could have done it. So how do those two things match up? But then you go, there's no way he couldn't have done it. It's so fucking weird. Let's get into it here. Like we said, two to 18 feet with the distance. So that morning at school the school goes

on Jason's not there obviously but the rest of school goes on they're investigating they're looking for clues they're talking to neighbors the father's you know I'm sure beside himself I would hope sad at minimum at minimum uh during the morning here uh there's a kid named Brian Simmons he's 15 years old uh he this kid has been everyone said that he is uh preoccupied with satanism and he's real into like satanism and all of it but we don't know if he's doing this shit because he's not really popular and he's trying this is trying to be his thing yeah because in the 90s i don't know there was everybody needed a thing yeah everyone had now all the kids look the same yeah you can't look at a kid now and tell what kind of music they listen to james you're not

allowed to that's assuming their gender that's true that's true fluidly binary or whatever the fuck it is back then not only could you tell what gender they were in 1993 and about that that's good whatever so fucking but no you actually could but no maryland vanson fans some of that shit got real crazy but back then you could look at any kid and tell exactly what kind of music they listen to in two seconds for sure in two fucking seconds because it was emblazoned on their fucking shirt not only that but you could just say that group listens to rap and that group listens to this and that group listens to metal and you just tell by looking at that that's how people were defined that's it yeah just their

behavior literally that's it like oh they like alternative shit or they're they like hip-hop or they like fucking that's and but that's how it was back then so you had to have a thing or else you were nobody and you weren't in anything and you were like people would try to like freak people out to be like you wanted people to be afraid of you if you were like an outcast rather than just like i'm a dork that you'd want them to think oh he's so weird and sure i mean i don't know if that made them feel better like oh they can't handle my weirdness. I'm interesting. I think that's what it is.

It's the equivalent of like, you know, buying a lizard and bringing it everywhere with you trying to be interesting. So terrible that I had a snake. I did that shit. Oh, no. That's fucking embarrassing. That is embarrassing. You shouldn't be embarrassed.

I think I told you I did it because I thought chicks dug it. And just some do. Not those chicks. Every every chick that came over, you're like, no, not you i did it because i thought chicks dug it and just yeah some do not those chicks everyone every chick that came over you're like no not you damn it i don't want you should i get a puppy i think the puppy's the cheerleader outfit the one that's running away from me holding this thing but i have a snake he watched wrestling twice was like chicks seem to like jake the snake roberts i think that'll like me, too. I just like ball pythons. I thought they were cool. And then I was like, this is a fucking useless pet.

What am I doing? For a period of two years, if you walked up to Jimmy, you'd be like, you Jimmy? He'd be like, call me Snake. Just call me Snake, baby. That's embarrassing. He'd be like, I don't think so. I'm an idiot. You kind of look like a Jimmy.

We're going to go with Jimmy. Can I see your ID, sir? I'm not calling you Snake you i will not call you weird so this guy uh attends school uh that day uh brian simmons he's there they said he's been interested in uh he talks about you know rape and mutilation and satanism and basically like he's like a metal fan kind of thing like we don't know like i said how serious he is there. But people think that it's brought up that he suggested to three of his friends that he had killed Jason, this Brian Simmons. He told his friends that maybe he didn't or he just said, I did. He's talking to his friends.

Mike Owings is one kid that we're going to talk about in great detail because he's a huge cog of this case. that we're going to talk about in great detail because he's a huge cog of this case. And I don't know, somebody who, if we did do a 10-part series, he would be the Heyman's ex-boyfriend Don of the scenario where he'd be like, I really want to know where the fuck Don was. And people would be checking his LensCrafter employee records.

And his cell phone records. And his cell phone records and everything. Yeah, Jesus Christ. So he says that this Mike kid says that Simmons explained the details of his activities leading up to the shooting and that he admitted to Mike that he'd shot Jason. This is what Mike says. Another kid, Dan, who's nearby, said that Simmons, that Brian Simmons told this Dan kid that now there's only four left on the five people to kill list that he has. That's what this kid said.

And he said that he intended to finish out the list. So there was five. Now there's four. Now there's four. And the only body that we're aware of is this kid laying on the floor. Yes. He also testified that Dan, this Dan kid would tell the police and testify later that he overheard Brian Simmons telling Mike Owings, quote, I did it.

I did it. And that he was and that he heard him overheard him say that he was so close that he could not have missed. And he also heard or overheard. He says he overheard Simmons telling Mike Owings that he wanted to tell everybody, but he knew he would be caught if he did. but he knew he would be caught if he did. Another kid named Michael, not Mike Owings, had also said that Brian Simmons had told him in some detail at an earlier time that Brian Simmons planned to murder a, quote, long hair, which, what is this, 1967? I have damn long hairs. A long hair?

What the hell? I've never heard. That's hilarious to me. In the 90s, no one ever called anybody a long hair. We the hell? I've never heard. That's hilarious to me. In the 90s, no one ever called anybody a long hair. We called them dirt head. That's what we called them. I don't even know. In the 90s, if you were into metal, you had all long hair.

And then kids could have long hair and shit, but they had to have the sides and back shaved. Or they had it parted in the middle, and it was perfectly loft, and it was down to the shoulders. It's like parted in the middle and it was like perfectly loft and it was down to like the shoulders. Yeah, that was like the kind of a hipster, like a hippie-ish alternative kind of like. It was kind of like a Kurt Cobain. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly who did it. Yeah, you're right, Kurt Cobain did that. I was thinking, I'm like, the dudes listen to Kurt Cobain.

I know the people that I'm thinking of, that's who they listen to. Yeah. As soon as I said it in my head, I was like, that's who did that. That asshole did it. Why did you do that, you dick? This Brian Simmons tells this Michael B. weeks earlier that he hoped to do it to kill a long hair by staying awake one night for the rest of his family to go to sleep and driving his mother's car to somebody's house if it had enough gas. And a long hair. And a long hair. hair because you got to find the long hair first uh that same morning that we're talking about where they're at school this michael not mike owings the other one said

that he saw brian approaching brian simmons and asked him why he was smiling simmons said that he would soon find out and then uh other people saw this exchange also and reported that now uh this dan kid said that uh he overheard simmons tell mike owings that quote he would be paralyzed for sure uh at one point that's just a non-sequitur that he heard out of that whole thing somebody in their conversation would be paralyzed yes which they're the the police are thinking about is possibly a reference to the severity of Jason's spinal cord or back injury and that the shotgun blast would do. The thing that they're very suspicious about is that Simmons is speaking of this in detail at 740 a.m., which is only a little more than an hour and a half after the first cop arrived

at the scene of the murder. Before that, nobody else heard about anything and no details were released until about noon of that day. So he knows about this allegedly way earlier. That's what this kid is saying. It's mainly this Mike Owings, and then there's a couple of peripheral kids that kind of say that too. So February 25th, now the next day after that,

Sheriff's deputies search Simmons' residence, and they get a search warrant in his closet they find a recently fired shotgun containing an expended 20 gauge uh uh shell number six shotgun shell so he didn't even expel the fucking what are you doing it couldn't get well he says there's a the problem is it's a federal firearms number six shell but it has a non they find non-federal primer with this you got to know about guns a lot this is a brand this is i mean and the primer there's a it's a very complicated so it's a reloaded shell is what it is yes and but they're talking it gets

more complicated they also discovered uh in a plastic bag they found uh wet shoes with a tread design resembling resembling a sheriff's county description of a tread imprinted in the snow near the entry of jason's trailer and we'll talk about that also it snowed during the night it snowed between midnight and 2 30 in the morning so they find footprints leading to the trailer no footprints leading away from the trailer in the snow so unless this somebody came out and literally traced their footprints backwards through the leading to the trailer. No footprints leading away from the trailer in the snow. So unless somebody came out and literally traced their footprints backwards through the snow perfectly, you would have noticed that.

And also, did the son come home and went to bed, or was he already home? I guess he was already home when the father went to bed. So whoever's footprints those are is the killer. And I guess, but then how'd they get away? Where'd they go? Did they disappear? Did they beam themselves up? That's bizarre. That is the killer. And I guess, but then how'd they get away? Yeah. Where'd they go? Yeah, that's weird. Did they disappear? Did they beam themselves up?

That's bizarre. That's the bizarre thing. And so also, it's always about resembling a sheriff's deputy description of the tread imprint. There's no like- Nobody took a fucking picture? Well, it's snow. I think it got snowed over or whatever.

So it's basically, it's sort of like that. Got it. So they're going with similar to. This is like in the 80s when they would convict people on blood type similar to or hair found on the scene similar to the defendants, not a DNA match, that sort of thing. That's awful. Yeah, I would say so. But this is, yeah, wet shoes that they say resembled that. Also, they seize a pack of filterless cigarettes, a bottle of oil used, what the police say, used in an attempt to burn down the trailer that Jason was in.

Journals with satanic symbols, books on Satanism, including witchcraft books and a derringer, a small little gun like an Old West prostitute. Also uncovered a pipe bomb. So they brought the bomb squad in because they didn't know if that was like an active pipe bomb. So the bomb squad in because they didn't know if that was like an active pipe bomb so the bomb squad took uh took that apart simmons is arrested uh and he is charged with murder and use of a deadly weapon burglary and possession of an explosive device okay at best bad charges yeah but at best the evidence is super circumstantial super circle and based on everything and based on what three kids overheard in the hallway and what literally one kid was told allegedly not good especially when you hear that that kid has also issues and issues with that are so did they find a burned spot on the fucking trail like the dad could have been

burned in there yeah they could have been burned he could have been burned alive in a tin trail he survived vietnam but not living in a fucking trailer in dayton so this image Simmons. He's from Stagecoach, Nevada, by the way, nearby. They all go to Dayton High School, all these kids that we're talking about. They all go to school together. Now, in court, Simmons' lawyer is a guy named Bill Rogers. He seeks to have his client transferred to a juvenile center in Carson City or in Reno to keep him away from adult inmates in the Lyon County Jail, which if you're somebody's lawyer, you should probably request that. He also asked for a gag order on witnesses and family members because of the publicity

in the case. It's a tiny town and this is a huge deal. Of course. And it gets out right away that the first thing that comes out is, and one kid was a Satanist and he's a Satanic cult killer of another kid. And so everybody freaked the fuck out and lost their minds. back then everybody wanted to blame like oh this was huge this was huge anything that wasn't barry manilow all of a sudden caused crime it was big in the 90s the early 90s was really they were really ramping up trying to censor shit and all that that was a huge

deal that that caused this like sorry but your your explicit fucking label lyrics label and all that shit caused people to to go the opposite way it just you everything that happened in the 90s that shit caused but putting that label on that music was fucking awesome made it great made it popular fantastic thanks guys yeah thanks for telling me which ones i want to buy appreciate it that's all it did dumb white people you made dumb white people. You made Ice Cube rich as fuck. Sorry, as soon as Bob Dole tells me not to listen to something, as a 15-year-old, I'm like, it must be good. That's why that old fart doesn't want me to listen to it. Thanks, Tipper, for telling me about Eminem.

He was fantastic. Fuck, man. Two live crew. Yeah. I was like, yeah. As a 10-year-old white child, I didn't know much about two live crew. I appreciate Congress for informing me you gave people like like marilyn manson so many more gigs because he's brilliant as a speaker

and he'd sit down on these panels you put him on fucking on phil donahue and pay him more money to yeah good the amount of money that was made because of that fucking label he was so smart so fucking smart marilyn manson with everything he did, too. Yeah, he is brilliant. So he wants to gag order here. He says that there's the lawyer says, quote, a circus atmosphere has surrounded this case from the beginning. The judge denies both requests. He says that Simmons is being tried as an adult and will remain in an isolation isolation

cell in the adult jail. So he's going to stay in the adult jail, but not going to get raped by older men. So I guess that's good. Yeah. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about Simply Safe Home Security. SimplySafe.com. That is S-I-M-P-L-I-Safe.com.

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And now back to the show. So while Brian Simmons is sitting in jail, he's got a girlfriend. He does. He's got a girlfriend named Jessica. She is one of Mike Owing's best friends also. Because in high school, everybody knows each other. And I'm like her up next door to this one. So that's all.

It's like a point of pride to put the face to the name. Yeah. You say, yeah, I know that person. You don't know shit about him. Yeah. But you're aware of their existence. Yeah. Well, these people, I guess Mike and her were pretty close friends.

Mike and Jessica were, quote, one of their best friends, which is everyone you know in high school. So they talked at school. And Mike said that Jessica told him that Brian wanted to talk to Mike on the telephone from jail. He said that Mike told her she had had contact with Brian Simmons from jail and was telling Mike Owings that Brian wants to talk to you. So after school, this is all Mike Owings story. Mike asked his father what he should do after school, apparently. And he says that his father told him to report the matter to the officer at the Lyon County Sheriff's Department who is in charge of the case to keep them abreast of everything. So the officers

when he went and said that they said well this sounds terrific you definitely want to talk to him and we want to record that shit yeah as a matter of fact uh you do that you talk to them they got a judge to approve uh telephone you know intercept of this whole thing sure and they said that uh there was probable cause to believe that simmons would discuss the pending charges so why not they said he had discussed it he admitted to it in the hallway to to mike so now let's get him on and he wants to talk to mike and he wants to talk to mike so let's get him on tape so uh mike you know consents to the whole thing he says that he agreed to it quote to see in case brian said said anything about Jason and just for my protection and my family's protection. He says his father and the officer both say that Mike was told that he didn't have to accept the call.

And there was no agreement concerning any lenient treatment for Mike in his prior substance abuse arrest that he's had this kid. Mike has issues. That's what I mean. He has issues. That's what I mean. He has issues. And they're saying we didn't make any deal with them telling him that. But if you have drug charges and you entrap a murderer, they're going to let you off those drug charges. At minimum, you're getting off the drug charges.

Yeah. There's no... They always say that. We have no agreement with him. They never have. Trust me. I've read so much mob shit. There's never been an agreement

in place for sentencing or for anything until the person who you testified against is over with and then you get that just so you can say there's no agreement in place it's the only reason why and sometimes there is an agreement but at least yeah that's exactly what it is nothing written down they're like if you do this you know we're gonna help you out on that until it doesn't happen and then they fucking start singing about it that's the other thing yeah so uh uh prior to this they said they told mike the officer says that he told mike not to intentionally seek out incriminating evidence from brian rather just be a listening post is the way he put it uh during the conversation though the officer didn't do anything to keep mike from eliciting anything from him.

He didn't say, hey, don't say that when he said something or slap him on the leg or some shit when he was doing anything. He didn't coach the phone call. He didn't coach it during it. While it was going on. He just let a teenager sit there and talk to another teenager on the phone and didn't give him any instructions. Basically, let him investigate himself here on this one. So Simmons obviously knows that the call is subject to being recorded. He's in fucking jail. didn't give him any instructions basically let him investigate himself here on this one so uh simmons obviously knows that the subject the call subject to being recorded he's in fucking jail so

he has no expectation of privacy whatsoever here uh this is the phone call that we have i have the the transcript of the phone call here and i'll read it quickly and go through it uh okay so brian the beginning of it brian says yep i wonder i wonder, I'm just going to say Brian has line then Mike has line. So Brian, yep. I wonder Mike, what do you wonder? Brian? Okay. Let me ask you a few questions. Mike. Yeah. Brian, if you got shot, Mike says, uh-huh. Brian and killed with a 20 gauge. Mike says, uh-huh. Going into it, Brian and BBs went through your lungs and through your heart and into your chest would you be instantly dead mike uh i'd imagine so if you got shot through the heart brian yeah mike why or could you could you be alive brian says or could you could you be alive to move like three

feet opposite direction of which you of which you were mike probably not because anybody anybody who'd get your heart Brian uh-huh okay good that I've been framed Mike huh Brian then I was framed Mike you were framed Brian oh yeah Mike did Jason move or anything Brian I don't know I can't tell you and then there's laughter from Brian and he says quote I was told not to tell anyone anything about the case mike oh brian but i know everything about so no big deal that's why i think it's ironic mike ironic brian ironic mike so you think you'll be getting out tomorrow or thursday brian yep so it's gone to that mike are you going to be able to go to school if you get out brian no i don't want to go get mobbed mike who'd mob you dude brian i don't know do you a heartbeat mike. Mike, who'd mob you, dude? Brian, I don't know. Do you?

A heartbeat? Mike, dude, there's only a couple people that even know what happened. Brian, what do you mean that know what happened? Mike, that know what happened. Brian, there's no one that knows what happened. There's me who knows what happened. There's God who knows what happened. Mike, kind of weird to hear you say that.

Yeah. Brian, and there's Satan who knows what too. Oh, I'm reading all the reports and stuff that's pretty interesting the coronary reports and stuff like that he means coroner uh the coroner reports so it's him god and satan and there's coroner reports but him god and satan know what happened they know and the coronary reports are there i like these it's ironic it's ironic it's not ironic no that's why he was like, ironic? He just said ironic and then moved on. And it keeps going here.

Have you been listening to Alanis Morissette? It just came out, I think, right? It's 93, so maybe not. Are you trying to tell me you like something new? Are you writing for some Canadian lady who sings in an annoying fashion? Because you know the definition as well as she does. Exactly. I don't even think he meant coincidental.

I just think he pulled a word out of his ass that he heard. He thinks the coroner reports the coronary report. So I think I think irony might be lost on the young man. I think you might be right. So, yeah, he says the coronary reports and stuff like that. Mike says, ah, Brian, they took the dead body for an autopsy. Mike, ah, Brian. And it's pretty neat. Mike, can you believe? It's pretty neat, the autopsy. It's pretty neat, which I know a lot of people who love watching autopsy shows and shit. I can't watch the autopsy happen. I can read about it. I do all the time. Yeah, it's fascinating. Mike says, can you believe he came up clean? Brian, who?

Who the fuck else are we talking about? The dead fucking guy that you're talking about. Mike says, Jason. brian clean with what mike huh he had no dope in his system dude brian bullcrap mike says quote that's what the witchamajoo said he called him a jew he's i think he called the doctor a witchamajoo that is That is some white trash shit right there. Where any doctor or lawyer is a, quote, witch and a Jew. Sounds like your friend just didn't inhale, bro. When you guys were all smoking, he just wanted you to accept him. No shit.

This is fucking. Yeah. He was just like, I just want friends. He came up clean because he doesn't fucking care about getting high. He just wants to be friends. So Brian says, quote, no way. Who said that? Mike, huh?

Jenny, who's the girlfriend? Brian, what? Jenny's this stupid little try to get me. Dude, she's covering up everything because she's trying to nail me the hardest, saying stuff like I loved her and I wanted her and all that. Mike, what a freak. Brian, Brian. Ah, she's human. I can't't i'm not so i'm not surprised

uh i'm not surprised one bit but you don't but you know i don't really care because i can't i can prove every statement made against me is false mike that's cool and that's the end of the conversation so god he i don't want anything taped to me when i was fucking 16 you sound like a fucking moron no matter what dipshit dipshit and they know everything those fucking assholes and that conversation this is what i mean this kid he said okay i'll give brian this he sounds like an asshole yeah he's definitely an asshole but i don't know if that means he's a murderer but a murdering asshole one thing that i noticed here about this call is that he never incriminates himself completely he never

he asked questions but that's also questions based on he just read a bunch of autopsy reports and he's saying oh i wonder if it's it's definitely suspicious this call i'm not saying this is a fine call to have but he never says when i shot him in the fucking back this is what happened like that never happens the problem is he says he knows what happened i know what yeah but he could mean i he could say he means i know what happened whereas i know where i was and i know i wasn't there or he could i don't know what the fuck i read autopsy reports and i know and i know that well that's what he says too he says uh there's only one thing that no there's only one that knows who has who's what happened there's me who knows what happened there's god who knows what happened then mike says kind of weird to hear you say that. He says,

and there's Satan who knows that too. And then he says in the next breath in the same statement, oh, I'm reading all the reports and stuff that's pretty interesting. The coronary reports and stuff like that. So he literally could mean, I know what's going on because I'm reading all these reports because that's exactly how he said

it in line with that. But if you know that, then the coroner knows what happened that's what i mean that's what i'm saying anybody that reads the autopsy report telling somebody knows what happened this is at best a wash this phone call it's the best to wash this is a weak phone it's a weak phone call it's nothing that i would convict a child of murder on but uh you'd be surprised how much that came into uh play before the trial, during the pretrial time, Simmons here, Brian, moves to have the – or his lawyers do. I'm sure he couldn't fill the paperwork out himself. He can't say coronary.

I was going to say that. He can say coronary. My client has a problem with the coronary report. It's not to his liking. So they move to prohibit the state from admitting the telephone conversation into evidence uh brian insists that the state knowingly violated his sixth amendment right to counsel by recording the conversation they say that uh this underscores the first excerpt where mike says did jason move or anything as an example of mike's effort to elicit criminal and uh

incriminating information but that's also said in a time where jason bryan brought up the the whole thing so that was just conversational i feel like anyway the district court denies the motion finding that the state's involvement with with mike owings was not sufficient to create an agency relationship because what do you have to say is that mike was acting as an agent of the state when he did that which he fucking was acting as an agent of the state but you that would be that every single person whoever sets up anybody with wearing a wire was an agent of the state at the time and blah blah blah so it's the same shit like there'd never be a mob boss put in prison if this if this worked if you could just say that about everything so uh that's how that goes. Simmons also seeks to have the district court suppress all items taken from his home, including

a book on witchcraft, which the state reads excerpts from in court to say that he's into Satan and shit, which I fucking hate when they do that bullshit. They said that the witchcraft book was in plain view and constituted relevant evidence, so they deny that also. So everything he has motions for ahead of time is denied dan cummins is a serial killer i don't know if you know that oh yeah the man has so many books on serial killers jesus christ you have so many books on homicide i should leave right now we would be fucked yeah i'm thankful to have the skin on my back if you look through my shit and i was you'd be like oh he absolutely killed anybody

that you fucking think that he killed because crazy all he cares about is murder it's literally all he has so many reports and this is weird psychological you should see what his google search looks like oh my god and googled you don't even want to know my google search the horrors that lie within there jesus christ imagine that imagine that looking through your history and seeing the shit that i have on there crime scene footage of teenage rape and murder it's james has i've seen it he's got pictures old ladies that's fantastic yeah just what i always wanted always wanted but uh if i don't know that then i can't make jokes around so we have to know where the line is so thank god this can be found by police.

No shit. Yeah, we're not. We didn't do it. We swear. We're just interested. So June 1st, 1993, the trial begins. OK, now the Copac's father, Jason's father, says he didn't know that Brian Simmons was involved in Satanism. Brian Simmons was involved in Satanism.

He said that they tried to say that there was a link between the crime and Dungeons and Dragons, which is the most ridiculous thing in the world because most of the kids that play Dungeons and Dragons are pretty fucking... They're the kids who aren't fucking up. And they're also... I mean, they're little. Well, also... They're feeble. Well, they're usually the smarter kids, too, that play that because it's a very complicated fucking thing. So it's usually like smarter kids. And they might be sometimes like a weirder kid, but they're smart usually.

And they're usually not the wild criminal type peanut allergy. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's what they exactly. So he says he doesn't know what caused Kopech says he doesn't know what caused Brian to kill his son. He said that they had been friends before that. He said, quote, Brian has spent the night at my home a few times before. You know, he just didn't understand what the fucking story was of he did to him. He was just like, I don't know why they weren't in a fight.

They never had any beef. I can't understand why this guy would kill my son. But I don't understand how anyone did it as we'll get into this evidence here the they read his from his book okay uh if you'd like me to read brian's book this is the excerpt they read from his notebook because they find a couple of notebooks and shit that kids have around sure like under his drawer he had like a notebook and a pack of cigarettes and you know a fucking hustler yeah like you know he seems like a hust and a pack of cigarettes and, you know, a fucking hustler. Yeah. Like, you know, he seems like a hustler guy.

Maybe Club. Oh, Club. Yeah. Club is the one. That's a sleazy one. Yeah. Very sleazy. I'm pleased to have those. And it was so creepy.

That's the type that like, yeah. Taking shit at his house. And there's like six of them right on the countertop. That's it. That's the Club is the magazine. 50 year old men kept out in the open on top of their toilets in the bathroom. And you'd be like, wow, cool. What the fuck is this? Ew. What is that? Oh my God. Yeah. I had a lot of questions. Why is she magazine that 50-year-old men kept out in the open on top of their toilets in the bathroom. And you'd be like, wow, cool. What the fuck is this?

Ew, what is that? Oh, my God. Yeah, I had a lot of questions. Why is she doing that? I had a lot of questions. Well, she has a smile on her face. She seems to be liking it, but I don't think so. She's an actress.

She may be forced to do this. Should we help her? No, this magazine came out five years ago. Never mind. She's dead by now. She's probably dead. She either escaped or she's dead. I don't know. But was recent i'd contact the authorities crossed so the they read from his book and they read the uh the the statement here quote and this is all different ones they kind of combine into one big amalgamation of uh of his feelings which

imagine taking a bunch of statements from a large volume of writings and then just taking a bunch of separate ones, putting them together and be like, that's his mission statement right there. The ones that fit your narrative. That's his mission statement. That's what he meant. It says, quote, I will torture you, burn in hell. Now, these are also excerpts of lyrics.

Some of these are out of place with the rest of the lyrics. You can't do that. So like in a song, if there's like, you know, six lines of lyrics. Some of these are out of place with the rest of the lyrics. You can't do that. So like in a song, if there's like, you know, six lines of lyrics and one of them is like you burn in hell, I'll kill you. And the rest of them aren't. They'll just take burn in hell. I'll kill you and then put that with other shit. Not in the context of the lyrics. It's the equivalent of going through your boyfriend's phone and making a conversation that didn't happen.

This is fucked up. So I will torture you. Burn hell. I hate your guts. So does Satan. You will be the victim in sacramental death, which sounds like a metal song lyric. This is fucked up. let me in satan give me the power to do evil uh i want to walk this world without a heart tear innocent souls apart which definitely sounds like a lyric yeah i want to look into a man's eyes and have him scream in fear satan will you be my father which that's i mean he's clearly looking

out for some parental guidance there's nothing wrong with that he needs a dad teach me all your magic i mean you know um if you knew someone a new magic uh turn my heart black which these are all uh take away my conscience to kill for you beware me i can in turn kill again he must die i'm not afraid to shoot strangers in the name of satan your murder will be done maybe for no reason i must kill him satan give me a sign give me the guts to kill for you see your blood as i cut you in little pieces and mail your body parts to your parents in the name of satan your sacrifice will be done that's a lot to write out though it's a lot i mean but this is if you call that from a

huge catalog of writing it's like three spiral notebooks that they found a lot of horrible things to write it's a bunch of satanic fucking poor shit teenager bullshit which like i said you could take that in multiple ways you could take that as those are his thoughts you could take that as he felt like writing some shit down you could take there's so many fucking ways to take this buddy found those and he before i mean if there's if there's no crime and your friend is just over and reads that stuff you're being made fun of forever like that you're never living down i want to walk this world with without a heart yeah that's not even possible no that's hey listen we gotta talk

anatomy didn't you read the coronary report what's fucking wrong with you bro you had that what a dipshit so uh one of the witnesses uh took the stand was michael owings uh the the kid who said that uh you know, he told him everything. He says that he spoke of Brian talked to him about his fascination with Satan and murder. He said, quote, he talked about killing people and raping people. I kind of ignored it. It didn't seem real. OK. He also said that Simmons had asked Owings prior to the killing if that if he wanted

to help Brian blow up the Kopeck home. The Kopeck home. He was like, want to blow it up with me? And so he said no, Michael Owings, he says. Owings also said that Brian pulled him aside the morning of the murder and told him in detail what he did and what type of weapon he used. He said, quote, Mike, I did it.

I shot Jason. I always thought they were friends, but I guess Brian had something against Jason is what he says. This is all very, like, clean. It's all very too clean. There's one kid that he goes up to and just says, I did it. Here's all the details, everything else. And then doesn't say shit about it. Everybody else's girlfriend.

It's a little odd. On the night of the murder, Simmons' mother, Analia Simmons, was up during the night, and she says that her son did not leave. She said she was sick that night. She has a stomach condition. She said she was up a bunch of times that night. Really never got into a good sleep that night. Her son never left, is what she says. She was there the whole time.

there the whole time also his younger sister cheryl testifies that she got up at least twice once at 12 30 and once again at 1 30 and both times she saw her brother brian in the living room which is there's no way he could have done that because stagecoach is 15 miles away so they're saying that there's no way that simmons could have left his home and stagecoach after 12 30 gone to the copax trailer committed the murder by 120 and then been back at his home and stagecoach after 1230, gone to the Copax trailer, committed the murder by 120, and then been back at his home by 130. So they're saying there's no way he could have done all this in the hour that he had doing that. The other part of it is that there's a lot of snow evidence

that doesn't add up in the favor of him doing this, of there being any way for him to do this. One of the things is a testimony of a woman named sonia sacks she's a cook at the at the dayton schools this is what i mean if we were like if we were like if you know npr or something we'd go to this fucking town talk to all these people and this would be a 10 part series because this is there's so much here this is deep this shit is deep uh the sonia sacks she's a cook at the dayton schools she testified she was the first person to arrive on the morning of February 24th at the school. This is where Simmons said that he told Mike or Mike says that Simmons told him that he parked his mother's car there while he committed the murder.

He said he drove to the school, parked his mother's car there and then walked to go do the murder. Somehow got in with one set of footprints and all that sort of thing uh so but mrs sacks the sonia sacks testifies that she saw no tire tire tracks in the snow at the place where mike uh where mike said that simmons told him he parked his mother's car on the night of the murder there was no like you know if you park a car when it's snowing when you leave there's an indent where there's less snow because your car was over it and also there's fucking tire tracks and she said fucking mud that comes through the snow that's all that shit yep she said there was no tire tracks there was no indentation of a car being parked there's no tracks in or out nothing she was the first one fresh clean pristine yes snow there so

that's an impossibility that she he definitely didn't park the mother's car there because that's not possible and as much as that's a great argument for he didn't do it yeah also could be he could have parked somewhere else he lied to mike that's the other thing he's a murderer could also be a liar you never know this is what i mean they're generally not far off from each other that's that's the thing on that and it's insane yeah this is so adnan yeah type you know what i mean it It's like, well, maybe she was in the trunk. Well, maybe Jay was telling the truth. But then why would she wasn't?

Maybe he's who the fuck knows. There's as much chance that this is true as that's true. So she saw none of that shit there. So, yeah, because of the timing of the murder in relation to the snowfall, the tire track should have been observable. Obviously here they would have been left and she would have seen that uh so this is a problem uh for this defense and later on a judge in an appeals court will call this the quote snow problem uh which there's several of them uh there's also uh prosecution places a lot of reliance on on a drawing that was found in simmons school locker okay this uh the student told law enforcement people people that Simmons had drawn him a map of a residence

that he planned to burn down. This was five or six days after the student made the statement to the police. They searched his school locker, and they found that the lock was unsecured, and also that several people knew the combination to the locker. Well, that doesn't. So if you search something six days later. Yeah. Anybody could have put anything in there that doesn't belong to him.

It was never secured. So fucking locked. Yeah. It wasn't secured. You can't. It's not. It's not valuable to you if it's not secured. But they finally do search it anyway.

This is three weeks after the murder. So God knows what the hell was put in the kid who's in jail for murder's locker. If everybody knows, are you fucking kidding me? They recover police from the locker. A crude drawing of a rectangular object, which they claim to be the floor plan of the Kopecks trailer home. It's just a rectangle. You don't have to draw that. I'm going to burn.

See that rectangle? I'm going to burn the rectangle and then it goes up and you can just say that you don't have to draw that i'm going to burn see that rectangle i'm going to burn the rectangle and then it goes up and flat you can just say that you don't have to draw that out it's not complicated i said but nothing about the drawing uh uh can be concluded that this was a drawing of the trailer park home of copex trailer home also it was found in his locker there's nothing to connect him to it it doesn't match any of the the paper doesn't match any of simmons notebooks or there's no writing on the drawing either to match handwriting to it the locker was unsecured for five or six days uh even if that even if they could establish that simmons had drawn a map of some kind of trailer home that doesn't that doesn't mean that he killed anybody so none of this is unless there's flames on the

front of a building and there's like a house with an arrow right yeah dead jason outline of a fucking like a chalk outline yeah in the exact spot in the exact spot and you have like his address written in another little arrow and a 20 gauge shotgun laying nearby yeah uh also they talk about how there's it's very troublesome that there's no gunshot or other unusual sounds heard by anyone in the vicinity of the trailer on the night of the murder. Kenneth Bradley, like we talked about, that neighbor, he testified that he heard nothing and that his dogs did not bark during the night.

If there's a goddamn gunshot that goes off next to your fucking house and you live in a trailer, your dogs are barking. And if your dog didn't do anything when that happened, you don't have a dog, you have a cat. You have a cat, yeah. If they just rolled over. That's a worthless fucking animal that's yeah let's do your job so uh this situation it's it's only 30 feet his trailer from their trailers that's 30 feet away even if the tin reverberation the dog's like

one of those ones that freaks out at the sound of fireworks at least it gives you some sort of report that some shit's going on that's the thing if it does absolutely nothing or something yeah shoot it it's not going to notice. So yeah, I'd be like, huh? So they said a videotape made during the initial investigation of the scene contained the sound of Bradley's dogs barking. So he says his dogs are fucking barkers. He says they are always barking at everything.

If a cat jumps on his shed, they're going to bark at it. Good dogs. Yeah, they're good dogs. So he said the only question, and it was weird, we'll talk about this later, but later on the question, the jury will ask the judge one question during deliberation. They'll send a note asking to be told again whether anyone had heard the dogs barking the night of the murder. And no one had heard them barking. None of the neighbors heard them barking.

Nobody heard them barking. They think that Bradley says he would have heard a gunshot and his dogs would have definitely barked. Also, the state's case. Also, the state's case. Basically, the state's case rests on Mike's testimony. If you take Mike out of it, he's the J of this case. Like if you're a serial listener, he's the J. If you take Mike out of this scenario, there is no case. There's literally there's a kid who has some metal lyrics and some satanic shit written in some notebooks and somebody dead and

the way the snow prints go you're looking at his dad as the as the killer first there's one set going in and nobody coming out and somebody shot him and here's the thing i don't get too and i don't i'm not trying to blame this guy's father because i hate when people during serial made wild accusations everybody he's the killer this one's the killer i'm just saying that i'm kind of doing that but i'm not trying to i don't want to incite this but the best suspect is the dad dude if if it's very not likely that someone came in and out of the house and the kid was definitely shot in the living room which he definitely was and the dad is 10 fucking feet away in a tin trailer and would probably wake up from a shotgun

blast and he's saying he didn't i'm'm suspicious of either that or this was some sort of supernatural shotgun blast. Nobody heard and dogs didn't bark. This shit's fucked up. Now, Mike, they try to impeach his credibility a little bit because there's several facts about Mike that are kind of, you know, kind of under the radar. Unsavory. One, that he's been hospitalized for various psychological problems. radar unsavory one that he's been hospitalized for various psychological problems uh he says that he was put in an institution for a while because him and his dad were quote having some problems um problems that i've had some problems with my parents i never ended up in an institution

so that's more than some problems if you got problems with your parents and they're not fucking beating you unmercifully or sexually assaulting you you're just an asshole you're just yeah you're just a kid you know what. You're just a kid. You know what that's called? Being a kid. You know what happens? You graduate and you get the fuck out. Eventually, you'll be 18 and you'll leave and then it's all cured. Time cures all with that. And I'll bet you'll love

him later, too. Yeah, and you will. I was kind of a dick when I was a kid. I'm really sorry I gave you so many problems, Dad. Remember when I said that we had problems? I had problems. I had a lot. I was fucked up. I'm really sorry I gave you so many problems, Dad. Remember when I said that we had problems? I had problems. I had a lot. I was fucked up. So Mike has been hospitalized for that.

He's had drug and alcohol addiction. He's expressed also, he has expressed to other people outwardly, people at the facility that he was at and everything, a desire to kill his parents. Jesus. So he's not exactly a, he said like, I to kill i've had you know fantasies of killing my parents and shit like that so he's not a perfect guy that you're taking and he had like i said he could have had just as much motive just as much availability just as much everything as this brian simmons kid but he is positive that it's all brian and nothing else he's as stable as he

is reliable at this point at this point he he's the he's the he's the hayman's boyfriend don he's the don the other one's the j it's so it's it's insane so uh at the trial uh he testifies that uh that he used narcotics uh since the preliminary hearing so between the hearing and and this trial which is less than a month he has used narcotics uh since then he says uh about three weeks before the trial so he's saying i've used drugs recently he also admitted to smoking weed approximately a week prior to jason's death which doesn't mean anything at all but he's just trying to say that they're trying to say hey you're not some perfect fucking upstanding little honor student that this kid came up and told you about

a murder you're just as much of a scumbag as he is as far as kids go which is a dumb way to to get them to it's an asshole but you kind of have to do you know you have to say yeah they're gonna they're gonna dress the kid up in a suit and put him up there looking perfect like he just came from sunday school and say this this horrible satanist kid told me he killed another guy and you have to go hold on a second you smoke weed right you got a crack pipe in your pocket right like what the fuck here uh so he they also said that uh he was on probation with juvenile authorities because of his drug violations at the time this was going on as a term of his probation he'd been required to provide urine samples for testing uh once he became an informant for the state he had never had another urine test again and his probation

all of a sudden that went away also he was never brought to court after that to answer for his admitted drug offenses in the past that he was on the hook for at the time that's all that shit went away that's too much which you would expect yeah the defense proposes that mike is the murderer they said he's a fucking murderer that's their alternate theory is that mike did it uh they said that mike had a motive to try to frame Brian, which if he's the murderer, then that would be a motive at that point. They proposed that Mike had every reason to try to give the state what it wanted in terms of evidence against Brian. He was frequently in trouble with the authorities. His cooperation with the police in this case gave him an opportunity to get his own charges taken off.

And he was very forthcoming and very helpful just open just open and for a kid who's had problems with the cops a lot in 1993 that's not a guy that's gonna speak that's not a guy that's looking for cops to talk to i was one of that kid i was that kid and i was not gonna fucking tell the i could have seen somebody kill someone in front of me i would have been like i didn't see shit yeah not happening no what are you going to listen to fucking uh body count cop killer and then go ask him because that's what he was listening to probably no i'm just saying it was 1993 yeah so who knows what the hell's going on they're just they keep saying that well yeah he could keep he he said he just admitted that since

he started talking to the cops he's been able to do drugs again because he doesn't get drug tested anymore and now his other drug charges are dropped but all been able to do drugs again because he doesn't get drug tested anymore and now his other drug charges are dropped, but all he has to do is go, Brian told me that they killed. Could be true, could be not. Who the hell knows? Also, they talk about the student

who discovered the trailer home sketch. They said that this child had no motive for fabricating testimony, but the only thing worth noting about that is that he is Mike's brother's best friend who found this. This is all very, he's the only kid in the school that found this thing. Why does Mike keep coming back to being the hero of this story? That's what I mean. Everything. His brother's best friend. Find it. It's so weird. This student

testified further that he had heard Brian talk about murder and mayhem and Satanism, as he put it. He also testified that he believed Simmons was all talk murder and mayhem and Satanism, as he put it. He also testified that he believed Simmons was all talk. He said that his bizarre rantings were, he thought, this was a child speaking. This kid's smart, by the way. He's on the honor roll and shit. He said that he thought, in his teenage mind, that the rantings were a defense to cover up his adolescent insecurities.

Wow. Which, yes, good. That's beautiful. You've been to therapy, son. up his adolescent insecurities. Wow. Which, yes, good. That's beautiful. You've been to therapy, son. You've been watching a lot of fucking Sally, Jesse, Raphael, or whatever the fuck was on

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If you like this show that you're listening to here, then check out the Steve Austin Show each Tuesday and Thursday exclusively on Podcast One. Join the Pro Wrestling Hall of Famer and action movie star as he shares tales from his new life, unbelievable past adventures, and covers all the happenings in the pro wrestling world. So don't miss the Steve Austin austin show each week on podcast one and also remember to rate and review and now back to the show now one more thing simmons younger sister testifies that that she saw simmons like we said between 12 30 and 1 30 uh they also said that her story, the defense says if their story, if her story could be accepted, there's no way that he could have done all this killing. But they also say that Cheryl gave four different versions of her observation of her brother,

which isn't good. Her first story was that she did not get up at all on the. She said, I didn't get up at all. Then she said that she could possibly have seen him during the time. And then under cross-examination, she said that related her second and third versions, which included that she told a friend that she got up at 2 a.m. to get something to eat. And then she said that she saw her brother at 1.30. So she said she got up at 2 and then she said she got up at 1.30.

And then on a redirect, she delivered her fourth story, which was that she was up at 12 30 and at 1 30 and saw him on both occasions so we don't know what the fuck she saw uh the uh who knows basically the defense is saying the fourth one sounds good and the the uh the prosecution's going whatever any of the rest of them are good for us we're good with that so who the fuck knows here was the fifth one she's been like i stayed at a friend's house that night i wasn't even home i didn't see shit i don't know anybody i don't know who's brian again i do i have a brother wow i'd love to meet a brother wow that sounds awesome oh he's in jail shit uh so uh they said that they they uh they said that they they she got up she says she got up to put her hamster in the hamster den and then got a drink of water. And then she said she had got something to eat earlier.

Also, it's a school night. So the prosecution's trying to relay like, hey, all this is happening on a school night. So all this is probably she probably slept through the night. And they were. That is weird that there's so much on a school night. There's all these people up at one thirty in the fucking morning. Everybody's up all the time. Good God. Brian testifies on his own in his own behalf here.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. You probably have to as well. Plus, he's kind of cocky, too. He was like, I want to tell my story. He's they said he was calm and composed and expressionless, which I don't know if that's the best way to go. No.

Right. They're saying cold blooded murder. Right. If you're sitting there. Yes, that's the one. Yeah. But if you're going up, yes, that's the one. Yeah. But if you're going up to talk, maybe give some personality. If someone said you went into a rage and started slashing people, then you want to stay calm and cool.

But if someone said that you calmly murdered someone in the night, you probably want to act like somebody who's got some energy to you, a little bit of bounce. Hey, a little happy-go-lucky action here. So he said, he acknowledges, Brian does, that he has told other students that he was interested in Satanism. He described, he said that he's described by other people think he's shy. And other people have testified in the trial that he's a shy kid. And he talks about Satanism. And other people besides that one kid have said, well, everybody thinks it's just a defense mechanism because he's super shy. So it's like, no, no, I have something.

Look, don't you should be afraid of me, too, like everybody else. So that's the other thing. He said that it's a means of appearing weird. So other people would leave him alone and not fuck with him, which was another thing that you do when you're a teenager. If you're don't have a lot of friends and if you're not real tough, you act crazy. So no, it's like, what are you doing? Jail like i'll act crazy so nobody fucks with me that is very strange that jail is very much like high school it's exactly like high school maybe that's what they call it when you're off to college yeah no shit yeah when in the mob when you're in the it's so weird that

well you they're training you to be okay with institutionalized horseshit sorry i have a problem with all systems and and uh institutional craz At minimum, it's interesting. Yeah. Even if it's not a conspiracy theory that you buy into, it's definitely very interesting. I mean, you're essentially being conditioned to just listen and do what you're told from the second you're born. To go here on this time and then there on that time, and it's just like a job. You go here on this time and you go to lunch at 12 o'clock and you come back and you check out. And then at 30 years, you can retire and go do whatever the fuck you want. But they want you to be. So you can retire and go do whatever the fuck you want. But then when you, by the time you retire, you can't afford to do whatever the fuck you

want. So you got to do it. You don't have the energy to do it either because life has grinded you down to a nub and now a yay world. Yay. So around and around we go have goals guys. That's come on. I don't fucking matter.

That's everybody have, Hey, small town murder. Have goals because they don't fucking matter that's everybody have hey small town murder have goals because they don't fucking matter so don't bother have them but then ignore them yes have them and then don't achieve don't achieve a thing you'll just be disappointed in yourself so uh also uh brian uh denies any connect he said that he did never had a hit list he said that they never found a written hit list that's's just what Michael Owings, Mike Owings said that he said. He said he had a five man hit list

and one of them was gone. Brian said, I never had a hit list. I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. He said that the list that he had was lists of real people interspersed with the names of their fictitious characters

from D&D is what he was saying. So he said that the real names were those of other students with who we played the game with. So he was saying that like anything he said about anybody was their characters in D&D because it was in the D&D section of the of the thing. This is all very confusing and very, you know, muddy and doesn't matter to the fucking case. This is all garbage.

But they're saying that's a that's a that's a to kill list. And they're running with this and they're running with it he says quote it was not people it was their characters is what he said so he's like i don't know what you're and i don't think these prosecutors know what the fuck any of this is too uh he also denied telling other students that he wanted to kill jason at any time he said he's saying it was only jason's dungeons and dragons character that he intended to kill because that makes sense the other students either misunderstood him or were lying he said which it sounds like it's so full of shit and then it also sounds like fuck it's like why would Jay make all that up but then again it sounds like

he's making all that up so to say Mike is fucking it's so weird Mike is Jay it's fucking crazy and dad is Don for sure say it's the's the weirdest shit. So that's all they concentrated on. They concentrated a lot on the on the Satanism in his opening statement. The prosecutor talked about Satanism, Satanism, Satanism, introduced the spiral notebooks. Simmons, Brian admitted to having copied from a book in which with witchcraft assorted curses and and satanic invocations and ways to call up demons. So he copied. All that shit was literally copying out of a book into your book. He's a hack.

Yeah, that's it. So he would have that, and then he could maybe freak another kid out by having a thing. It's like having a fucking Ouija board, but next level. Also, let's go back to the murder. Where are the fucking Raven's claws and chicken claws and chickens yeah let's draw in blood none of this also makes blood trails trails and snow theories of the crime that don't fucking add up none of that means any of that shit does it mean this is all this is what was the distraction though and everybody too like letters to the editor and these local papers were all like well all the kids now are into the satanism and this

is what's happening and we gotta to nip it in the bud. And this is the exact same time as the West Memphis three. And when that was going on, where they convicted those kids who didn't do shit because they listened to fucking music and they were the same kid as this kid. That was just Metallica. Yeah, that was just another shit. But they were the same kids, though. These are all the same kids.

They're that kid. They're the weird kid. That's 1993. Yeah. Especially. all the same kids. They're that kid. They're the weird kid that 1993. Yeah, especially. Yeah. Jesus Christ. Especially then. By 93, they were commercial.

They were what your parents listened to. Kill them all is long gone by then. Yeah, it's not Ride the Fucking Lightning at that point. This is the problem with closed-minded thinking, though. In small towns, in the world over, it's just small. Fucking open your mind and think and listen and understand a fucking thought because marilyn manson does not promote any sort of murder by any stretch no he just promotes being unique and if that happens to be you fucking yank your eyebrow on the left side

whatever he's just he's like the alt lady gaga man that's all he fucking is he's a guy who figured out marketing and figured out yeah that's what exactly i just meant he's he's alt and she's like mainstream was all which he turned mainstream on it right but he that's just because he was so weird that people took to him right he didn't go to the mainstream like his sixth cover song yeah stop it stop being a just be original you fuck yeah that was better so uh that's all they talk about, though, is the satanic shit. Now, Brian admitted to placing in the notebook pages of the Bible with the word God crossed out whenever it appeared. Oh, no. You must be a shotgun murderer if you did that. That's who cares.

Honestly, it's so stupid. But in that notebook contained, I guess, the writings that appeared. They said that it appeared original and not copied is what the that's what the prosecutor said, which is I don't even know what he's a ghostwriter for whoever wrote that. They said that doesn't seem copied. Sound like you wrote that out of your mind. It's like, how the fuck do you know what I know what's in every book on Earth? So I know you didn't copy it. They said he said to Simmons, the prosecutor said, quote, you ask for the ability to kill later you're saying you want to kill in every case you're directing these requests to

satan which is fucking funny simmons acknowledged he had written those statements but that he said it doesn't mean anything another testimony his parents uh simmons parents steven and analia said they believed their son was home all night the night of the murder because both said they believe their son was home all night the night of the murder because both said they saw not saw no evidence they said when they went out to the cars in the morning there was no footprints and there were both cars were equally covered in snow with no tire tracks indicating that anyone had taken the cars during the night the cars did not fucking move right so they're like we went outside in the morning no fucking i mean they obviously could be saying that to cover up for their son too but they also could be telling the truth other people could be lying to cover up for murder so this whole thing is a fucking disaster did the cops go and investigate that like their fucking job would entail you know

what i mean yeah that would have been after they left already that's the problem yeah who knows you can't fucking use this no fucking no so miserable they say to the best of their recollection they would have definitely noticed if their car had been moved in the snow. They said that would have been a red flag. They would have went, hey, who took our cars in the night? So the mother also testified she had been up most of the night with an illness and heard nothing out of the ordinary

to indicate that her son leaving. She didn't hear doors open. She didn't hear cars starting. Nothing at all. She sounds like the nervous type who would have noticed that shit. So the day he took this, he ends up taking the

stand like we said and denying all of this shit he also denied taking his mother's car that night going anywhere at all that night he also denied taking the shotgun from his father's closet uh because he said he didn't and he said that a lot big part of the defense is how would his parents not have noticed him coming into the room and getting a shotgun out of the back of the fucking closet like they would have probably woken up especially if the mother was sick and not really in a deep sleep all night. She's up and up and down all night. Yeah.

You're going to you're going to. Honey, where are you going with that shotgun? Totally. Hey, where you'd at least see his silhouette walking out of the door. Hey, Brian, why you got a shotgun in your hand? This is right around Tombstone, too. She'd probably scream Johnny Tyler tyler johnny tyler madcap so he uh he uh brian said that the statements that people have made against him were either misunderstood or they're lies and uh yeah he just said it's all

dnd anything that you think is murder is dnd He said the last time he used his father's shotgun was in January. The 20 gauge in question. He said he only shot it once. And since he couldn't remove the expended cartridge, it was stuck in there, jammed that he didn't. He didn't end up using it again. I never got fired again. He said one of the other weapons removed from his home was a homemade pipe bomb, which he stated was to be used to blow up some rocks behind his home, which, like I've stated before, when I was like 13, we used to blow shit up.

All the time. Nothing bad. Constantly. But it was shit, you know, just a bunch of rocks. Cool. Boom. Eat your hand. That was less intentional.

That sort of thing. So that's not. And he didn't use the pipe bomb to kill the kid. So, you know, whatever. That's right. Was the kid exploded in the trailer? No. He was shot with a shotgun that's the thing and also during the cross-examination you can tell this is how a prosecutor would never ask to say this to an adult on the stand he said uh to

simmons quote do you want to end this right now do you want to tell us what really happened like they never say that to an adult because an adult will go fuck you fuck you talking about you which this kid said quote i already have so right he held his ground there uh uh the the they keep bringing up the dungeons dragons game which i think is fucking nuts dungeons and dragons is not murderous uh is this this may be the only case that dungeons and dragons is used as like a motive it's fucking crazy yeah it's so stupid he said that uh he never told that he never told he because there's also rumor that he told jason's girlfriend that he was going to kill jason but he says he was it's about his dnd character is that about everything holy shit man uh simmons also said that mike owings and mike boheimer were two of the main witnesses against

him for the prosecution were lying during their testimonies uh that sort of thing here so uh loomis asked about the statements he made in a tape conversation one of which is simply quote this is what he said on one of the things i saved this for the end this is this sounds terrible for him for brian simmons he said quote i'm innocent under brian's law which i don't know what that is, but you can't make up laws and say you're innocent under them. I know that's bad and that does not sound good. That's what he said on tape. On tape. But that could also be fucking.

Because Brian knows the truth. And it could also just be bluster. Arrogant. But he was like, I'm getting out tomorrow. He was the whole thing was a fucking acting like it was a joke, whether he was serious or whether he thought it was a joke. He was putting out that he wanted it. That's the image he wanted to set forth. In the closing argument, the state used the conversation to depict Simmons as a threatening and anxious to inflict punishment on people who conspired to put him in jail.

The phone conversation. He's saying that was him saying he's going to lash out at people. He also said the also said uh the state said to the jury quote is that tone you heard on that conversation is that consistent with an innocent boy wrongfully accused of a serious crime absolutely not that tone is consistent with a person who has committed a murder and is doing everything he can do to desperately work his way out of it i didn't get either one of those i didn't get i didn't get innocent boy and i didn't wrongfully accused and i i didn't get i didn't get innocent boy and i didn't wrongfully

accused and i also didn't get hardcore murderer who's working desperately to get out of it i just got teenage boy that doesn't know shit about the law i got two jerk offs talking on the phone who are 15 fucking years old and all 15 year olds are idiots yeah it's just the way it is so i got sorry if you're 15 if you're listening to this and you're 15 you're probably actually not an idiot you're probably a pretty fucking cool 15 year old. You're probably trying really hard to not be these kids. Yeah. You agree with us. You agree with us.

I got like guy that tapped into the phone lines and was like, fuck, I'm going to listen to this now. I'm trying to catch somebody's phone fucking. I wanted to hear some whacking. I wanted to hear some, I wanted to catch a housewife doing some shit. Rubbing one out on the kitchen table. Behind her husband's back. That's what we want.

And instead I caught these two assholes talking about Dungeons and Dragons. This is boring. This is stupid. yeah uh doing something on the kitchen table behind her husband yeah that's what we want and instead i caught these two assholes talking about dungeon and dragon boring yeah this is stupid so uh june 13th 1993 yeah the verdict is read uh this that's the verdict day like we said the jurors submitted a note to the judge asking did anyone hear the dog barking uh that night and uh the court said no they gave him an answer of no. The court discussed the question with the counsel, and they all agreed that they wouldn't answer them, though, about it. They just said, basically, whatever you remember is fine.

So they didn't tell the jury. When the jury asked about the dogs, that was the only question they had. One question. One question they had. One. While they deliberated, they sent one note. And usually they send a lot of notes. Hey, this little thing. Hey, did we clear that up? Did we get this straight? They want to get it straight. They had one while they deliberated. They sent one note. And then usually they send a lot of notes. Hey, this little thing.

Hey, did we clear that up? Did we get this straight? They want to get it straight. They sent one. Did anyone hear dogs barking that night? And they said, we can't tell you. We can't answer that. You have to go back and look through the testimony.

What is this, a test? That's what I mean. No, this is a kid's life, goddammit. It's fucking so stupid. So they didn't do that. The jury deliberates for 90 minutes. Jesus. 90 fucking dude it takes 90 minutes to fill out the paperwork and a murder trial it literally does relying on memory of whether or not the dog barked that in 90 minutes there's there's no discussion okay well

yeah there's no discussion you don't have time to discuss in 90 minutes literally it's that's the time for a vote and quickly to fill out the paperwork and say we're done. That's fast. In 90 minutes, they find him guilty on all charges. Wow. That includes first-degree murder. That includes with use of a weapon, burglary, this, that, all sorts of shit they find him. It's fucking nuts.

Seven men, five women, first-degree murder with use of a deadly weapon, also guilty of burglary and possession of an explosive device. Wow. This is fucking in an hour and a half. That's some small town justice. Yeah, I would say. There are some reactions that are a little stiff to this, including one person, a resident of the town that said, quote, the jury I sat on spent more time on a DUI than they did

on this murder. No doubt. That's right there. Quote, I'm not surprised about the verdict, said many of the, a lot of people just said they weren't. A lot of people just said justice was done because they didn't hear the trial or anything either. They didn't know.

Some people said they read the story and they saw some reasonable doubt presented by the defense, especially the one-way steps in the snow and all this technical gun wadding evidence, too, which we didn't get into that much. Like we said, if we did a 10-part series, there'd be a whole episode on gun wadding and gun mechanics and how this comes out of this. Like the cell phone towers. Exactly what it would be.

That would be our cell phone towers. It would be shotgun wadding. July 15th of this year there's he's supposed to be sentenced but they give him a continuance on the sentencing because they bring up some shit here the motion for the continuance uh they they bring up the defense brings up new found evidence they state that on july 2nd they were given a copy of a report that states on uh between 4 30 p.m and 5 30 p.m. on the day of the murder, February 23rd, Michael Owings was at an apartment located at 369 Dayton Valley Road. Rogers feels that the

fact that Owings was at the apartment the evening prior to the death of Kopech is contrary to testimony given by Owings, because this apartment is right by there. So Owings was known to be at a very nearby Kopechx residence the night of the murder the night yeah the 23rd that night so that's fucking crazy like right before the murder also they state that several uh tenants of this apartment said that on the night of the murder between 1 30 a.m and 3 a.m they heard various noises coming from an apartment which had recently been vacated by owings girlfriend and that all the keys they found out were not returned upon her moving out of the apartment. So there's one out there.

There are outstanding keys. They also said in the motion that the information has been relayed to the Lyon County Sheriff's Office by the witness within a few days of the death of Jason Kopach, but was not given to them until July 2nd. Not until after the trial. That's when they got this information, which seems like it may have been valuable at trial, possibly at least to add another peg of something. They said the failure to provide this information was prejudicial to the ability of the defendant to effectively cross-examine Michael Owings, which is absolutely true regarding his activities

the evening prior. Owings, which is absolutely true regarding his activities the evening prior. Also presented to the court was a report from Lieutenant Ken Barnes, who's with the sheriff's office, requesting the district attorney's office, requested by the district attorney's office, which he states that a party may have taken place at Owings' girlfriend's house during the night in which Kopech was murdered. So there may have been other people there also. Too many. So you're putting more people into the fucking mix.

It's a goddamn party. Yeah. The evidence in question is also there's a pair of Reebok tennis shoes that they say belong to the victim but weren't taken into custody the day of the murder. Now, the lawyer, defense lawyer, contends that the shoes that they have in a video of the crime scene are different from the ones presented to the court during the last part of the trial. OK, this is crazy because they're saying that they're Reeboks and there's a big they bring in a guy from Reebok to talk about this. It's fucking nuts here. Like, again, shoe prints would be a day, a whole episode, two hours on shoe prints.

So Rogers here, the defense lawyer had the photos of the shoes reproduced from the video and in the photos it shows a black or dark blue pair of high top shoes with a very light colored sole uh so they bring in a reebok sales representative from sacramento named keith dairy who says uh that he looked uh that he took all the still he said that he looked at the still photos and all that sort of thing, and they had a regional meeting and stated that Reebok had never made a dark high top

with a light-colored sole. So they're saying that there can't be Reeboks. We never made that shoe ever. Yeah, he added it was definitely not a Reebok shoe in the photo. He couldn't obviously answer whether the shoe or the photo had been altered, but he said that's not a Reebok, and they're saying there's reebok prints in the thing and that it's fucking ridiculous this is what i mean there's so many things uh also uh uh the the

barns the police officers spoke with the manager of the apartment in question she said that she had not had a problem with owings at the complex between january 13th and february 28th and that his girlfriend had moved on February 19th. The manager said that she had not received all the keys back to the apartment and that she did not know of any party that had taken place. But a noise similar to closet doors being slammed shut was reported on the morning that Kopech's body was discovered coming from that supposedly vacant apartment, which is obviously strange.

She said she was and then she said she heard that. So she went and looked at the apartment and the manager of the apartment found unable to find anything out of the ordinary in this vacant apartment. So they might have cleaned it up so she wouldn't lose her security deposit. Now, the police, Barnes's report also went on to state that on that day, on June 10th, he spoke with another tenant who said he, too, heard noises coming from the vacant apartment in the very early morning hours. And then he also recalled seeing Owings between 430 and 5 p.m. the night before the murder and then didn't see him after that. So he's been in the area.

And then a third witness that was interviewed stated that he also heard noises coming from the apartment, but he didn't feel like there was noises that were consistent with a party. He just heard noises. But either way, no one's supposed to be in this apartment. Outstanding keys, some shit going on. It's all very suspicious. Somebody saw him for sure. A couple people definitely saw him. Also, Simmons' team discovered that they finally discovered the Bradley interview, that he was interviewed by investigators the morning of the murder,

discovered the Bradley interview that he was interviewed by investigators the morning of the murder and said that uh he lived 30 feet away and uh he slept on the side nearest to the to the Copac trailer and that his dogs barked quite a bit he didn't know that that conversation happened earlier because they never told him but the dogs did not bark that night but the dogs didn't bark that night uh so this this whole fucking shit is crazy so they're they're they're done with the trial this isn't this is a penalty this is penalty phase and pre-. So they're they're they're done with the trial. This isn't this is a penalty. This is penalty phase and pre penalty phase. They're saying, hey, we want to have a continuance so we can try to basically get a retrial before you're even sentenced. The D.A. opposes the request, stating that the defense was asked at the beginning of the trial if they were ready to proceed.

And if they but they're saying, well, we didn't know this information existed because you fucking didn't give it to us. So how the fuck could we know that we weren't ready yet? We would also like continuance because we didn't think this would fucking be possible for this to be the outcome. This is insane. Yeah, crazy. The D.A. says, quote, there comes a time when we have to get on with things. I don't know if this is the time. The defense lawyers described the witness witnesses as, quote, two individuals who are outraged at how the trial was handled because they say they have new witnesses that are coming forward.

At some point here, a district court judge asked both attorneys, isn't there some law that says at some time this trial has to be over? They're kind of being a wise ass about the whole thing. They get a continuance, but then they end up sentencing him on August 2nd, 1993. Simmons' mother, Annalita Simmons, describes her son for try to get some sympathy for him describes her as a sensitive forthright considering caring child she said quote he's a god-loving person and i'm proud he's my son uh they they talked about all the uh you should read his articles hon well she said at this point uh quote, the question is, is he a murderer or not? Is he a Satanist? Which is very fucking fair.

He gets on the stand and he gets up and pleads his fucking pleads for mercy. He says, quote, I did not kill Jason Kopech and I asked the court. I asked that the court grant mercy and give me life with the possibility of parole so I can possibly start a new life over when the recommended time is over.'s what he says he's 16 that's a tough thing

to say to a judge though when you were just convicted you can't maintain your fucking innocence that's tough well you have to for later for your appeals but then that that's what's so tough about then you get a stiff sentence and then you're trying to appeal it i mean just don't bring up the fact that you're innocent just be like i'm begging you for this yeah because i gotta try to get out of this mess let's find out if the judge is uh is uh as nice uh the judge says you young man i guess i don't fucking know may fuck off uh you child may fuck off sentences him to double life in prison with no parole oh my god that's steep a life sentence for the murder and then it's doubled for

use of the weapon in the murder a double life sentence no parole to be conserved consecutively also uh now that's life without parole it's over so just in case so if he accidentally knocks somebody up through the mail or something when that kid's born he's done for life and forever so consecutive life sentences with no parole. Jesus. Done for forever. Post-sentencing, Kopeck's father said, quote, age doesn't matter. He's old enough to know right from wrong. He said that Simmons was dangerous and a menace to society. And before delivering the sentence, by the way, the judge read excerpts from his writing,

including the choicest from that excerpt I told you about before with all the Satan shit. And then he sentenced him. That was like his reason for sentencing me. He re-read that shit. He re-read it to tell everyone that that's why he's getting a lot. It was because of that. So, fucking nuts. It was the first murder case brought to court in Lyon County since 1972, which is fucking wild.

So 21 years? 21 years. And it was this judge's first murder trial in this county. So he's not used to this. He says, the judge said, quote, any life sentence in any rural county is unusual, which I guess so. So he will be evaluated, Simmons will, at the Reception Diagnostic Center at the state prison. They're going to figure out where to place him based on psychological shit, legal,

social evaluation, his age. 1996, in March, he has an appeal, and on appeal he assigns some error, obviously, on appeal. One was refusing to exclude the taped conversation between Simmons and Mike Owings. Two was admitting the book on witchcraft

as part of the trial. That's so ridiculous. So fucking stupid. And three was denying his motion for a new trial after he was convicted and before he was sentenced. That whole thing. Now, they talk about this. The state argues that Mike was not a state of a state agent when he took the phone call

from him and incriminating statements that Simmons made to his friend were used as evidence without violating his right to counsel. Because if he was an agent of the state, then Simmons would have a right to counsel is what they were saying here. Uh, they said the state did not enter into any type of agreement with Mike or instruct him how to proceed other than tell him not to make it, not to seek incriminating statements and entrap the kid. Basically, uh, that the also said the, uh, He also said the witchcraft book, Simmons contends the book Witchcraft,

is the name of the book, was illegally seized and should not have been admitted at trial because the book was not listed in the search warrant and neither the plain view doctrine nor the good faith exception applies, which it does because it was out in the open and they're trying to connect it to some horse shit.

That should have been, that's so fucking ridiculous, man, that whole thing. Anything with a book that just, it's like, come on, man, really? What a fucking Fahrenheit 451 type of life. This is stupid. And there's books like, we've seen where killers have had books

that were like literally how to kidnap and dismember and tie up women. And then they kidnapped and dismembered and tied up women. That's a different story. There's no witchcraft involved in this. That's what I mean. It's witchcraft. So silly. Let me fucking break here. So the state

also about the fact that they didn't tell the defense about that Bradley neighbors interview the morning of the murder. And the state maintains that the Bradley statement was immaterial because evidence was presented to the jury that the neighbors heard nothing out of the unusual,

and that would have been dogs barking if the dogs were barking. So it didn't matter, which is so stupid. They talk about the blood trails, like we said, large gunshot wound. They said the blue fibers matching the blood. Everything we talked about physical evidence-wise, that's the scene of the death is the trailer. There's no way he was dragged there no blood in the snow shit like that uh they but they upheld the convictions of him and uh that's

pretty much it for him the the appeal produced it's a four to one ruling in the appeal on the the panel of judges here which not even close uh the majority said that simmons had reportedly become preoccupied with satanism and uh just he just wanted to kill him because of satan four of the five go yeah this was right that's what i mean absolutely right the dissenting opinion though is fucking uh fire this dude is on fucking fire he is not taking any fuck any shit here i'll read some choice excerpts from this guy here uh they said he says this this is how it should be said. Quote, Simmons' conviction of first-degree murder

is based almost entirely on the testimony of his teenage acquaintance, Mike, who claims Simmons admitted to him that he shot and killed Jason Kopach. The problem with Mike's story is that under the facts as they were unfolded at his trial, Mike's story is impossible. Mike claims that Simmons told him on the night of the murder,

Simmons walked up to the trailer home where Kopech lived, opened the door, shot Jason with a shotgun, walked back to his parked car, and drove home. The reason that Mike's testimony cannot be true is that there was snow on the ground the night of the murder, and in fact in a number of respects establishes irreconcilable inconsistencies in

Mike's story. As an example of such inconsistency, police investigators at the scene were unable to trace footprints made in the snow on the night of the murder, which show that some person walked into the trailer home but not walk out of the trailer home. These footprints were the only footprints in the snow that surrounded the Kopeck trailer home on the

night of the murder. Whoever was walking into the trailer home on that snowy night did not walk out, not at least until the morning after the police investigators completed their investigation of the pristine murder scene. This and other doubts created in my mind by the inconsistency between Mike's rendition of Simmons' confession and the physical evidence at the murder scene prompted me to make a more careful inspection of the record in this case than I might have ordinarily made. After doing this, I came to the conclusion that a jury could not have properly

reached a guilty verdict based on proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And he goes on and on and on. But this guy fucking lights it up. I mean, he says the biggest problem is trying to believe Mike's story is the snow. Simmons' father testified that he brushed snow off of both his and his wife's car, as they call the, quote, murder car in the trial testimony. On the morning following the murder, both cars had the same amount of snow uh this this indicates that no one including student as simmons trot out of the copec trailer home the night of the murder and used a car it's really really fucking difficult to uh the the rebox based on the evidence that's that's at hand

you can't convict on this this This is crazy. The other evidential concerns that cast doubt on the truth of Mike's testimony. The investigator who first found the snow prints at the scene testified he believed them to have been laid down by Reeboks.

Simmons, however, customarily wore combat boots. He wore Docs back then, not Reeboks. Mike accommodatingly testified. This is the thing. Mike had, oh, every but maybe he had an explanation for it mike

did which how does he know so much about everything he said mike accommodatingly testified that simmons told him that on that particular night of the murder he happened to be wearing rebox instead of his usual combat boots that would be the 50th detail you know why do you why are you providing everything that's what i mean oh i know what that was he told me that that night he was wearing rebox as a matter of fact this is terrifying i have a friend named mike owings and i don't want to be friends with him anymore uh whether mike's testimony about what kind of shoes simmons said he was wearing on the night of the murder is true or not it's very difficult to tie these footprints in any way to simmons yeah very true uh the police investigator who discovered the one-way footprints did not bother to photograph

or make a mold of the fucking prints. Not one. How do you not make a mold? As a consequence, he says, we do not know what kind of shoe laid down those shoe prints going into the trailer home or what size it was. Because we don't. Very easy to tell at that point. Is it a size fucking five?

It's probably not him. This is what I mean. They didn't even photograph it. The whole Reebok thing, they're not even saying they're going with brand they're literally going the investigator said he thought it looked like a reebok and they didn't take a picture or document it or anything and then they're going well that kid has reebok so he killed him that guy said it looks like a reebok who knows if he said that looks like a reebok after they found his fucking reeboks i mean what are we doing this is crazy shit uh so yeah how does it how does a detective uh just know

shoe prints by the way how does he just like look at what looks like a Reebok yeah what kind of sneaker head they got because it was snow over it like in the in the Dana Gray case in the in California that we talked about they had her Nike print but you could see the swoosh in the fucking dust you could see that's a Nike print and they took copious photographs of it i had a shitload of pictures those generally uh stand out that swoosh a reebok you actually the rebuff brand is written right it's the letters so they said the judge goes on as a consequence we do not really know what kind of shoe lay down the prints going into the trailer home or what size it was the officer did go back to the scene however after he realized that he should have preserved the footprints uh but by this time the original prints had been obliterated by the foot traffic of law enforcement personnel

and the emergency personnel that had responded to the 911 call made by the father undaunted the investigator proceeded to approximate the footprint that he had seen in the snow and based on his recollection testified not only the footprints were reeboks but that they resembled those pair of reeboks that they found in simmons bedroom you can't do that bullshit you can't fucking do that i'm sorry not when life without is on the fucking table no it's exactly right and strangely he also says officers found another single reebok lying on the floor of the victim's trailer home next to the victim's body okay what the fuck and so he owns those two yeah he said i don't know the significance of this fine because the shoe print has the shoe that

shoe has disappeared from evidence and it like the shoe prints were never photographed none of this shit was photographed this is small town inadmissible fucking jesus this is why we do small town murder, because this is infuriating. This is crazy. I don't care who killed this kid at this point. I just want to kick every one of these cops in the dick. Get your fucking shit together. In a big city, these fuckers are fired every day. Every day.

Well, this hasn't happened in 20 years. They don't have procedures. They don't have routines in place. They don't go in like Bunk and McNulty on the fucking wire. And you know, you set up here and I get that and they just never mind so so yeah he says it was never photographed he said the defense has understand understandably been very concerned about the disappearance of that reebok found at the crime scene and only and it has about the failure of the police to preserve any of the evidence as to the nature of the one-way footprints which is a huge sticking

point in this case for everybody uh they said that a lot of this the jury if the one-way footprints, which is a huge sticking point in this case for everybody. They said that a lot of this, if the jury were to believe that Simmons was not wearing his usual combat boots on the night of the murder, and believed Mike's story that Simmons was wearing Reeboks of the kind the investigators remembered the footprints to resemble, then we arrive at a point where we might suspect that Simmons entered the trailer home on the night of the murder, but never came out.

So, like, even if he wore the Reeboks you said he wore and those footprints were Reeboks, did he fly away? Right. Did he fucking literally beam back? Did Satan fucking make him grow wings so he could fly home? Is he Satan? Is his D&D character, does it fly? Does it fly? Let's check.

That's what we need to get background on. See, this is the type of thing we'd check out if we had 10 parts of this fucking thing. Netflix needs to figure this one out. This one's fucking crazy. Well, maybe we need to figure this out. Maybe we need to get background on. See, this is the type of thing we check out if we had 10 parts. Netflix needs to figure this one out. This one's fucking crazy. Well, maybe we need to figure this out. I don't know. This is fucking crazy. This is we got to tell our somebody about this.

But yeah, this needs to be fully investigated. This is fucking crazy. At least we looked at. Jesus. Yeah. They said this, of course, would be entirely inconsistent with Mike's story. Another permissible inference would be the one way footprints were laid down by some occupant of the trailer home, someone other than Simmons, who entered the trailer home on that snowy night and remained in the trailer for the rest of the night.

So the judge is all but saying his father could have killed him. I don't see any other way. He said, quote, in my judgment, once we get rid of, and he's a judge, by the way, once we get rid of Simmons. In my ability to judge judge because i'm a fucking that's kind of what i get paid for people go how'd you get this big house you go i judge judging a lot of shit let's just say that i will judge you right fucking now bring a kid up here let's see if he does anything bad so uh he said uh uh in my judgment once we get rid of simmons supposed confession to mike the prosecution's case collapses and it becomes impossible for a

jury to find guilty on a reasonable doubt. And then he says, I'll still I'll go on to discuss other aspects of the case, which we'll talk about excessively briefly because we got to be done here in a minute. But he said, aside from the police investigators recollection of the one way footprints, what they might have looked like, the only other pieces of evidence that might place Simmons at the murder scene are a cigarette butt found at the scene at the scene and an expended shotgun shell seized at Simmons house. That's the one in the in the chamber. The only reason that the cigarette butt has any significance in this case is that Mike reported that he told this is fucking funny. Mike told police that

Simmons told him that he'd smoked a cigarette in the victim's father's car just before the shooting so he said he got there mike says simmons told him he drove there in his in his own mother's car got out got into jason's father's car smoked a cigarette then went inside wearing these rebox uh killed him and then flew away home on his Satan wings. That's the theory of the case at this point. So did they find the cigarette in the car? So, well, he says here, even if we're to assume that Mike's testimony about the cigarette butt is true, there's great doubt as to the value of this piece of evidence because, again, the snow enters the picture.

Weather records show that it was either snowing or it just stopped snowing at the time the murder was committed, an estimated 1.20 p.m. on the morning of February 24, 1994. The cigarette butt was not found by investigators when they first went to the crime scene. 1.20 a.m. 1.20 a.m., yeah. The following day, the investigators went back to the scene, deciding to do so because of Mike's statement to them that Simmons said he smoked a cigarette while outside in the Copac residence. So the states then went back to look for a cigarette. But they then found the cigarette bot to do DNA testing. DNA tests revealed that 11 percent of the population possessed that kind of cells that were retrieved at the cigarette bot.

And by the way, both Simmons and Mike Owings fall into that category. So this is a mind fuck of epic proportions right here. So his father doesn't though. So what the fuck? So it's not him that smoked that. But how the fuck did someone get out of the fucking trailer? This is a mind fuck. This is what I've been doing.

I'm going crazy. I'm so happy to tell all you guys about this because I've been losing my fucking mind about this shit here. So, I mean, they talk about all this shit. They said that Simmons would have had to smoke the cigarette sometime prior to 120 and dropped it on the ground into either the still falling snow or the recently fallen snow. The forensic seriologist who conducted tests on the cigarette butt found traces of saliva would have been would have been removed by contact with moisture or precipitation. According to their testimony, it's highly probable that any cigarette butt dropped into the snow on the night in question would have been so saturated with water the following day that all traces of saliva and DNA would have been gone. So they're saying shit got dropped the next morning not

the fucking night before they came back this guy said oh there's a cigarette but then the cops went back and went hey we found this cigarette butt and he said oh did he tell you about the rebox it's like this is fucking crazy uh i don't know i don't even know here there's too much that just doesn't doesn't it doesn't solidify a yes no that's what i'm saying too much doubt how do they fucking how did they convict on that yeah they said the dna evidence in this case doesn't solidify a yes. No, that's what I'm saying. Too much doubt. How do they fucking how did they convict on that? Yeah. They said the DNA evidence in this case doesn't reliably can place him at the scene, doesn't reliably to place anybody at the scene. It's fucking nuts.

The only other piece of physical evidence in the case connecting Simmons to the murder scene is a 20 gauge shotgun seized at the trailer home of the Simmons. The shotgun contained an expelled federal shell in the chamber. The evidence here, though, is also problematic. He says the shell wad recovered from Jason's body came from a factory-loaded 20-gauge shell. The primer in the gun's expended shell, however, was that of a reloaded shell. In fact, every single shell found at the Simmons home was a reloaded shell. Not a single factory-loaded shell was discovered anywhere. Good thing they were cheap.

Cheap as fuck, thank God. That's what I just thought, too. I was like, that father being a cheap bastard is really helping a lot. Well, it's not because he's still in jail. The state tried to put together in a way with non-factory. The state tried to put together a way in which non-factory primer might be found in a factory loaded shell. However, an expert witness testified he did not believe a primer could have come out of a factory loaded shell and been replaced with a non-factory primer.

It's not likely that Jason was killed with a federal shell which contained a factory wad, which is not distributed to the public for reloading. You can't reload those, only the factory ones, and a non-factory primer. Those two don't go together. Thus, it appears highly probable that the shell in the gun seized at the Simmons house was not the one that killed Jason. Because a shotgun does not leave distinctive markings, no ballistics for that, the way other kinds of guns do.

Yeah, you can't, yeah. That's why Omar uses fucking shotguns. That's what he says. That's a smart move. Yeah, so you can't be tracing my pumpkin balls That's what he says. That's a smart move. Yeah, can't be tracing my pumpkin balls, is what he says. Oh! Then you don't fuck around. That was clever.

That's clever. He's a clever motherfucker. So no ballistics. The judge says, quote, what we are left with then is the fact that Jason was killed with a 20-gauge shotgun shell and that the 20-gauge shotgun was seized at Simmons' home. But the shell that was in the gun was almost certainly not the shell that expelled the projectiles that killed Jason so uh what the fuck and one more uh doubt that casts fact one more fact that casts doubt on the theories a state's theory of the case is the

claim that the shotgun had been stored in Simmons bedroom parents bedroom closet if this were the case he says Simmons would have had to have crept into his parents bedroom after midnight without waking his parents removed the shotgun then replaced it when he returned after the shooting. That's the other thing. He would have had to do all of that, which is all very hard to do. If you remember sneaking around as a teenager, you weren't going to if you were going to steal the car and sneak out, you were going to first sneak into their closet and take something, especially something large. A gun. A gun.

Yeah. And it makes noises when you hold it. It's, you know know that sort of thing here uh so he said although it would not be impossible for a teenager to creep undetected into his parents bedroom and remove something from the closet it seems unlikely in this case because simmons mother annalia testifies that she suffers from fibromyalgia uh which causes her to experience chronic muscular pain and she testified that night that she had been up it had been a particularly restless night and was frequently in and out of bed and had great difficulty sleeping uh it's given it's unlikely given her fitful condition that he would have

been able to get a shotgun out without his wife noticing so that is the appeal on that or that's the dissenting opinion uh the response from the state that the other judges you should hear the other judges be like well what the dissent does not take into effect account the only thing that they really talk about as far as the uh uh in like what he didn't get right was they talk about uh they bring up his simmons little sister's testimony that was all over the place which she was like 12 right and you know fucking she's in the middle of the night based on age alone yeah who knows if she mixed one night up with another night i mean who the hell knows here uh they also talk about uh uh the father walked out in the living room and

didn't detect any gunpowder which i don't understand how that's good for i don't know how that's bad for brian simmons that doesn make any sense to me. And they said that the dissent also views the failure of Sonia Sachs to see tire tracks in the snow at the area of the school where Simmons allegedly parked his mother's car. They use that as a thing. But they said aside from the fact that Sachs left work between 445 and 515 when it would have been dark and the differing intensity of the snowstorm could have resulted in tracks left in a light snow that were covered up by a heavier snow. But like we said, you can see a pristine parking lot. You just can't. You see when there's indentations from snow and you especially see it in the dark with

headlights on. For sure. That's when you see it more. Shadows like crazy. Exactly. In the day, you see it way less. You can see a fucking pine cone buried in snow. It's crazy. They're trying to act like that's a disadvantage for her seeing snow. But it's actually if you've ever fucking driven in snow, you know that you see everything in the snow, every little track, every everything. And it's like you said, shadows. It's all shadows.

The this is Simmons told him the testimony. Also, they said they're talking about Mike Owings testimony here, also indicating that Simmons told him that he would use his mother's car. However, Mike also testified that Simmons told him that he had a little Toyota, but that Mike had never seen Simmons drive the car. So now they're saying that Mike all of a sudden now remembers that Brian said he also had another car, not saying that that's awfully convenient for Mike to remember that. Brian said he also had another car, not saying that that's awfully convenient for Mike to remember that now. They say, well, that's evidence that Brian must have done it because he used that car that Mike just remember. This is not be Mike that did anything or it was whatever. We're not accusing Mike of anything.

Like I said, this isn't to make wild accusations of people. Mike's stories just are shit and convenient. Yeah, this is just this is just one of these cases where I feel like this has to be fucking looked at closer and this i'm telling you guys like normally your bigger cases and anything that anyone has noticed or has been out a lot it's on like murderpedia has just about pretty much just about probably minus three of them just about every case we covered you can see the bones of it on murderpedia and then you got to dive a lot deeper obviously you used yeah yeah not bad but this isn't even

on murderpedia i had to search for murder appeals in this state and be like on page fucking nine before i came up with this case and then i had to read the case and be like what the fuck is going on yeah in here and i was like i never heard of dayton so that's a small town perfect we'll do that and then this whole shit comes up and it's awful awful. And as I'm doing it, I'm like, what is what? Normally we have a cut and dry. And I apologize, everybody, if you wanted a cut and a dry. And that's usually how we do it. I mean, if you like justice and you wanted it, you got it.

Yeah, it's something. Apparently. Yeah. So, I mean, but that's that's that's the that's this case. That's Dayton, Nevada. That's the Simmons and Kopech and Mike Owings. He's still in prison. This kid after that appeal in 96.

I've really seen nothing else about him. This is nothing. He's 40s now. He's in his 40s. He's been in jail for 15. Maybe he kills him like we don't have any idea, but it hasn't even fucking looked at. Unbelievable. And I feel like I don't know, man.

Someone should look at this shit and not us because we're not qualified for this. I don't know how to do this. Well, I mean, we're us, because we're not qualified for this. I don't know how to do this. Well, I mean, we're not cops. We're not. I could call him. We've said a million times, we're not journalists. We're not attorneys. We're not police officers.

We're not private investigators. We're not this shit. We're comedians. We tell dick jokes. And we tell dick jokes. And then we find something like this. We're like, oh, God, I wish I had skills that would help a lot with this. I wish I knew some law stuff.

Yeah. I mean, I'm sure if we had a team around us and if we had, I don't know, like a Netflix show that had it, it would probably fucking work. People like that behind us. I don't know, man. This is like, this is fucking more messed up than making a murder or anything like that. I don't know what I'm saying.

We're joking around to pitch a show, but this is just seriously messed up and I'd like somebody to, oh yeah, we'll take it. Don't get us wrong. We'll take the fucking paycheck. I'm just saying there is less evidence that convicts this kid in this case than that fucking son boy in Wisconsin. Oh, God. Yeah.

That creepy. Yeah. Fuck. Looks like looks guilty in comparison to this. Oh, yeah. There's shit. You can explain shit with him. Like a why.

This is this is off the charts. Bullshit. Like, I don't. And it might not even be bullshit like we said he might be guilty right we don't know but the way they convicted him not good they did not find him guilty behind a fucking beyond a reasonable doubt no way in the world justice that is absolutely not justice and uh i don't even know what to say about that it's the first time he deserves it uh he deserves it i mean justice not yeah not to be dead no he deserves

justice and and no one should sit in jail from the time they're 15 to the time they're in their 40s on a questionable thing either way you didn't make your case prosecution whether he killed him or not yeah you fucking i call it a false conviction even if he did it because you didn't prove it get back to work you lazy so somebody get to work on this and i don't even know if there's any appeals left or any way to handle this or if i'm sure there's like i said adnan got all this after all this time but somebody needs to look into this anyway so that's small town murder uh no one's gonna sleep well tonight i'm sure knowing that who knows anything could happen there could possibly

be a murderer out there someone could be a dude named mike owings and i know a guy named maybe it could be you could have Satanist creeping around the snow and flying away from your trailer or maybe your father or your friends or who the hell knows who's going to kill you but someone's going to kill all of us. If you like that show and if it doesn't bother you that you'll be murdered for sure within the next six months

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Because it makes me shake. Me too. So you guys buying tickets and coming to see us and hanging with us, it means fucking everything to us. Absolutely. And we don't leave, like fucking the guy from Snatch says, we don't leave until the job is done. That's it, man. We aren't leaving. If you guys want to hang out, we'll hang out.

We'll hang out. Even if the venue starts saying we got to go, we'll go out on the sidewalk and show up. We've done it multiple times before. We don't leaving. If you guys want to hang out, we'll hang out. We'll hang out. Even if the venue starts saying we got to go, we'll go out on the sidewalk and show up. We've done it multiple times before. We don't care. Tell the venue to shut up. These people bought tickets. We'll say sidewalk party and we'll go out there and we'll hang. So we don't care, man.

We just thank you guys for everything that you do for us. Thank you for your donations. Thank you for getting these tickets and just supporting us and allowing us to go this far with it. Thank you guys so, so much. And Jimmy, why don't you tell us a list of the people who we are thanking more than so much. Hit me with that list, Jimmy. This week's executive producers are Gavin McFarlane,

Frankie, no, Frank Tripati. Oh, yeah. Frank Tripati. Thank you. Yeah, maybe. Tripati, I like Tripati. Hey, Frankie Tripati. I figure he's super Italian.

The problem is he comes like Paul Calhoun to clean out your shit pipes and it's a competition. So, you know. We got to keep him on the low. That's right. Keep your shit pipes, and it's a competition. So, you know. We got to keep him on the low. That's right. Keep him down low. But he's a great man. Thank you.

Jackie Schumacher, TJ Daly, Michael Stein, Melanie Steinley. Oh, yes. Yes, it's Steinley. She's wonderful. Thank you. Craig Cole and Greggy J. Thank you guys so, so much. Thank you so much for everything.

Thank you. Milena? Yeah, Milena. Milena Slater. Is that an A? Fuck. I think it is. Milena Slater. Is that an A? Fuck. I think it is.

Milena Slater. Vincent Giardelli. Yes. Thanks, Bison. Kate Ives. Kelly Higby. Sean Hartley. Kate Myers.

Rachel Pack. Colleen Shambaugh. Yes, Shambaugh. Cool. It's probably Shambaugh. All right. Whatever. Owen Witherspoon.

Preston Letterman. Paul Ruest, of course. Of course. Amanda McKelvey. Thank you again. Amy Nicole upped her donation. Thank you, Amy. Thank you so much. We appreciate it.

Catherine Brinker. She also upped hers, I believe. Geez, thanks, guys. Under the Sea Fabrics. Janae Compton. Eric Mauger. Jesse Hartman. Again, every week they got him still.

Thank you so much. Paul Saunders. Rachel Kiskaden. Richard Rose. Donna Sittler. I almost called her Sittler. That wasn't very nice. No, no. She's probably been called that before. I'm sure she has. Yeah. Jay Bart Carpenter, Todd Crago, Alex East, Lucas, Lucas Minton says some terrible things about me. And then there's money. That was nice. Thank you so much. I remember that one. That was funny funny that's kind of a dicky thing to say to me okay and then fucking uh yeah but here's some money here's some cash so uh we'll make it all it was like sunny corleone beat you up and broke your camera and threw a couple of fucking bucks on it clean yourself up kid i kind

of admire that so good job sunny zulamar lucina uh samantha borghi uh bryant tool jay mullins i don't i don't know what the j stands for but thank you thank you uh laura laura menson mess meant yeah it is menson damn it uh margie coonsey she's terrific yeah she is thanks margie she's been listening to start uh victoria jernigan britney nichols uh emma emma kate cassandre cosson it's awesome yeah uh paula paula sala fucking damn it paulaala fucking damn it. Paula Sala fucking damn it. Jesus Christ. Paula Salamanca. That's a name.

There you go. That's a damn name. That's a good name. That's tough. John Love or Lowe? I think it's Lowe. That's right. Holly Hoffman, Laura Wood, Eric Waters, William McClain, Connie Christian.

And Connie actually wanted me to say happy birthday to Kyler Christian. Well, happy birthday, Kyler. That's what she wanted me to do. Happy to kyler christian well happy birthday kyler wanted me to do happy birthday to you yeah uh fuck uh hannah simmons uh i've lost my place with a happy brianna denue uh eland ford forslund yes forslund it's too close you almost said foreskin i can see your eyes going please don't say foreskin please don't say foreskin it's too close and she probably she probably dealt with that her whole fucking life. I'm sorry, Elan. Lucky Jean.

Monge Senga, who's going through some tough stuff. Monge. Sorry, Monge. We love you, brother. Hey, Monge. We got your back always, man. You're fantastic, buddy. You are the man, Monge.

Roe Slingleff. Yes, Roe Slingleff. Dave Anderson. Craig McGeechan. I think I said that already. Laura Yarnell. Leah Kelly. Ted Cyrus. Willie B, Sean Hartley, Jess Landgren's going through some shit, too.

Hey, sorry to hear that, Jess. It's really nice of you guys to reach out. All of our favorite people, damn it. You guys reach out and tell us when you're having struggles. I know Tiffany Robertson does that, too, about her struggles and everything. It's nice to have you guys around, and we're pulling for it. Thank you, guys. We're here for you if you need us.

Well, we really probably can't help you at all. As much as we can, you know. But we'll make five hours a show, and hopefully you'll laugh a little. I'll give you 10 minutes of banging on a keyboard to tell you I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah. That's good. Barbara Felker, Ben Sidry, Jess Langer. Barbara Felker.

I said that. Why do I keep doing that same line? What is wrong with you? Like a stroke. Get your head out of your ass. I mean, Gene Baptiste, Yasmin Chaudhry, Holly Barnes, Jake LaBeer, Access Apparel. I don't know what that is. I didn't Google it.

So Google it up. Fuckers. Send us some shirts. You fuck. Yeah, there you go. Key Sardi, Lewis T. Lewis T. Drick.

T. Drick. Yes. Michaela Smith, Melissa Coyle. Ariana Folsom. She tells me to tell you guys to Google her. I don't know what that means. Maybe she's on a porn site.

Google her. Go Google her. Who knows? Maybe you'll see her boobs. Or maybe she has a candle company. We have no idea. One or the other. Either boobs or candles.

You're going to find one or two. Either way, your house will smell nice. True. Eric Michael Showers. I guess he does. Kim Shang, who I imagine is Asian. I'm guessing just... Kim Shang?

Yeah, it's becoming very fun to guess the... Yeah, I'm going to go with Asian on that. I mean, I'm not an expert, but I'm going to say Asian. Todd Miller, Cameron Blanche, Nathan Little, Donna Birch, Kelsey Hebert's back. Hey, thanks, Kelsey. Crystal Dinger, Sarah Shefalo. Fuck, Marcus White. That's what it is.

Ashley Vio, Alex Eldridge, Jesse Wilson, Zachary Cornell, Corin M., Amy Crawford, Margaret Essig, Sour Kraut, which is fucking amazing. Which is delicious. And Chuck Cook. And if you guys want to see me tell some dumb dick jokes, if you're in Phoenix, you can find me at the House of Comedy this weekend with Jesse May Peluso.

Come out and hang out. Thank you, folks. Again, amazing. And every dime you give us is so appreciated. It just keeps the lights on, guys. You have no idea. Life happens and things happen. And you guys really, really, it seems like whenever we're in need of something

or down from something, it's just there. Somehow it comes back. Somehow, yeah. You guys, it's like you know. And we can't thank you enough for that. Plane flights and hotels are coming up and you guys are fucking amazing. Thank you, guys.

So we love you so much. Thank you for everything you do for us. And what if somebody wanted to thank you for everything you do for them, Jimmy? How could they tell you that? You can find me at Wisman S sucks whisman sucks on twitter instagram and snapchat and uh find me there yeah that's where it is like where else am i i don't know shit you're about to give out your address and your phone number and shit there's my license

plate number number is this is where i'll be hey you can uh find me at jimmy p is funny uh anywhere like that or you can copy and paste my last name from the show description because no one wants to spell Petrogallo. It's a tough one. It's a tough one. So do all of that. Find us everywhere. Keep coming back.

Buy those damn tickets. Keep an eye out for tour dates. Next week, everything will be live and you can do pre-sales and all that kind of stuff. But never mind all of that, everybody, because until next week, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max starting April 21st. Bye bye. one and watching along with part two as it airs on max starting april 21st bye bye the official jinx podcast listen on max or wherever you get your podcasts