Small Town Murder - STM Express - ep 1 - Front Porch Sunbathing & Missing Cows

Episode Date: December 26, 2020

This week, on a special Bonus episode, we give you "Small Town Murder Express", where we'll look at some crazy cases, and get right to Shutting Up & Giving You Murder! We check out a murder in East Amwell Township, New Jersey, where a 17 year old girl disappears from her own from porch on a lazy summer day. Where was she last seen? Going out with a strange man to chase down a loose cow... Only bad things could come of that situation. But is it true? Did something terrible happen, or was it just a teenager, taking off for while? We think you know the answer. Along the way, we find out that there are farms in New Jersey, that if a strange man says one of your cows are loose, don't believe him, and that no one believes you when you pretend to be in shock, after confessing to a murder! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasti See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on a special Express bonus episode, we look at a sleepy farm town that gets a rude awakening when a teenage girl disappears while looking for a lost cow with a strange man.

Welcome to Small Town Murder Express. hello everybody and welcome back to small town murder yeah hey an express edition yeah my name is james petrigal i'm here with my co-host i'm jimmy wissman thank you folks so much for joining us yes this is a special holiday just an end of the year thank you give you more just give you a little more an extra something so we found something extra crazy and there's going to be a small town murder piece theater in here and everything else it's going to be so much fun we have a lot of course and a terrible murder obviously as well uh thank you please rate and review on apple podcasts it helps a lot patreon also there's bonus episodes this weekend as well christmas murders from times past yeah we're gonna do it's a lot of fun because

they're all old-timey for small town murder and we have the of course quarterly personal ads episode for crime and sports as bonus you'll want to check that out get all of that at patreon.com slash crime and sports and you'll also be a producer. And if you want to just be a producer, get your name mispronounced. Patreon or PayPal is the way to do that. And use our email address. Crime and sports at gmail.com. Quick disclaimer, because we're going to get right into it.

This is a comedy show. It is. We're comedians. Murders are real. Everything is real. But, you know, we're true. You got to be good about it here. We go out of our way not to make fun of the victims or the the victims families because we're assholes but we're not scumbags

that's how it works so if you think that sounds good to you i think that's a good time you're willing to you know expand your mind a little bit awesome it's great if not then i don't know what to tell you i don't know give it a shot i don't think it's what you think it is but for everybody who's ready for some craziness i think it's time to sit back and shout shut up and give me murder let's do this jimmy all right we are going to new jersey terrific the florida of the north nobody says that no it is the florida of the north as we've called it before and we're actually going to have a full proper new jersey episode here coming up in the next couple weeks that's one of the wildest things of what it turns into it's a a missing cheerleader that turns into quite the tale man

it's crazy but this is a kind of a quicker one that we it's a wild story though that we need to talk about quick we're gonna buzz through the town stuff not really gonna talk how is it too much about the town here well it's it is east amwell new jersey is the town here so there is a north and south there there's a well east amwell township new jersey actually and there's a amwell township it's all of those now i think it's amwell who knows they might say it aim well but if they do i believe that's just wrong because it's am well yeah that's amwell as far as I'm concerned. This is in western central New Jersey.

If you're mad, blame Amway. Yeah, blame Amway. East Amway Township, New Jersey. This is where it all comes from. All your shitty makeup, everything's coming from here. Oh, you knockoff. So this is western central New Jersey. So this is in the middle of nowhere.

Sure. This isn't like where the Sopranos live or anything for people who aren't from the East Coast. This isn't the shore. This is the muck. There's farms. This is the farmland out here. Yeah. This is about an hour to Philly and about an hour and 10 minutes to New York City.

Okay. But it's the farm. Yeah. So that's kind of cool that you can live in a farm and live an hour from each of those cities. Right. It's kind of nifty. So population 3,933 people little pretty small town it's very small and this particular case we're going to talk about

happened in the 70s so it was even smaller back then wow so yeah it's it's it's interesting i have a couple reviews uh just to set the tone a little bit because we're not going to get too deep into the town and the reviews are all positive all i could find is positive reviews people love it they love it here five stars this one i would recommend living here to anyone especially those who would like to raise a family if i could do this all over again i would still choose to live here in the future i would hope to see continued preservation of farmland and wide open spaces the The greenery is one of the best features about this place. I feel like that person's never been west of the Mississippi.

I feel like they've never been out of this town. Yeah. Yeah, too. But that's another issue. But they do like it. Four stars on this one. You know, nothing's perfect here. This is the most negative review I could find.

Really? Yeah, pretty much. No one hears much about crime in this area. There aren't many disturbances at all although the town does not have its own police station the towns nearby are very quick to help hold your tongue yeah that's how you're on a show all about all of that that's how small this town is is they don't have their own police force yeah that's a tiny town that's like somebody being on a dating game talking about there's no single people in the world none oh hang out you're about to hear three there's gonna be some pretty soon yeah unfortunately for you median age here is 50 it's an older town too it's kind of older

people younger people leave places like this to go to philly or new york city and do whatever they're doing and have fun yeah exactly and leave the farm behind uh race of this town 85 almost 88 white so pretty pretty white to be that close to both of those cities uh two percent black 1.4 percent asian so 8.4 percent hispanic not much not much in terms of diversity there it's pretty it's a white farm town i mean and it was even whiter in 1973 when this whole thing went down. The unemployment rate is low here. Household income is high. It's almost twice the national average. Nationally, it's 57,652. Here it is 107,356.

Well, that's why you like it. Yeah, people have a lot of land. There's money to be made. There's money, yeah. There's a lot of farms and shit. Cost of living is also high. $100,000 is regular par. Here, it is $132.8.

Not bad compared to how much money you're making. That's the thing. It's not that terrible, but the housing is the high one at $170,000. That's the problem. Median home cost here, $392,800, which is high. A lot of that is because most of these houses are on land. That's the problem. That's beautiful.

Yeah, they're on land, so it's going to be harder to... Not a lot of... It's like a house sitting on a tiny plot. Yeah. You got to buy 10 acres with it, which is expensive because it's fertile land. But that's great. That's how that works. Yeah, it's not bad, but it is what it is.

And if we've convinced you, you know what? Damn it. Put it all down. You're going to star in your own version of Funny Farm. We have for you the East Amwell Township, New Jersey. I can't say it.

Real estate report. Your average two-bedroom rental here is way too expensive two thousand ninety dollars which is shit breathtaking for a rental that's a lot and i have some pictures for you of these houses and money away first one two bedroom one bath yeah twelve hundred square foot it looks awesome though i mean vinyl siding it's interesting's decent. Got a deck above your garage. Is that what that is? It's above the basement door. Oh, that's not parking. No, no, that's not parking.

You're going to have a driveway over there. But you can see, not too bad, 289,000. That was a little steep for 1,200 square feet, I would say. Then we have this house. Two bedroom, two bath, 1,178 square feet. With an upstairs. So that's a tiny fucking house. That's a little house.

It's on 3.23 acres. Hell yeah. So a little bit of land here. That's kind of that house with some land. $354,000, though, still for this house. My God. It's pricey. Then you have this.

Yeah. Let's say. A little estate. Big rolling green lawn up to it. That's pretty. High peak roof. It's nice uh four bedroom four bath 4 475 square feet and b-holes a t-bowl for every b-hole each and every on 3.15 acres too

yeah so you have some space around you 825 000 bucks so that's gonna cost you so must be nice as us four people say that's a rough one so yeah it's a little pricey there and that one's a little overpriced because the zestimate is 815 000 so i don't know what they're trying to pull there's just some that's probably where they want to land maybe they got a credit card they need to pay off james they're like we do it 825 they're gonna offer eight and we're gonna we're gonna bang it out boom there we go we're gonna do 815 things to do yeah in this town i found amwell valley hounds uh this looks like these are some rich pretentious twats over here they've got fucking novelty dogs oh no this is fox hunting jimmy

stop it with your dog hold your mouth you're on horses jimmy horses dressed like a fucking idiot oh no they put an outfit on oh they do riding you have the whole riding gear you're with your dogs you go out look at the house you come out of is it yeah uh hounds meet on wednesdays and sundays throughout january through march wow twice a week look at these people jimmy jesus they have top hats the woman has a goddamn thing flowing off she's sitting side saddle it's like a veil it's like they're all pretending like they're like 17th 18th century british upper class yeah you're not you you live in new jersey you live in the in a in a redneck town in new, you've figured out how to do that. Currently, there are over 150 organized hunt clubs in North America, it says here, where

mounted riders follow a pack of hounds as they chase wild quarry. Well, that's not you doing a goddamn thing. No, you just run with the hounds and they chase it and whatever. Until it tires it out? I don't know if you shoot it then or maybe it'll tell us. Let it free? I don't know. Maybe the dogs eat it. I don't know if you shoot it then or maybe he'll tell us let it free i don't know maybe the dogs eat it i don't know certainly the thrill of riding over the countryside is on a on

a fine horse who meets his fences well is a thrill for anyone also the sight and sound of a pack of hounds and full cry is breathtaking today's hunters have a special reward the permission to ride over magnificent private and public land no group of individuals is more aware of this privilege nor is their group more outspoken their desire to protect quarry and preserve their environment it is a sport enjoyed by people from all walks of life in any age for all rich white people any a all old rich white people of any age protect protect the foxes so we can set our hounds loose on this as we ride over public and private private lands uh to begin hounds are directed by the huntsman to a covert into a covert

uh to locate a covert to locate the scent of a fox and follow it speaking or barking on its path is known as the line the field of riders follow the hounds closely as possible without interfering with the hounds or the fox fox runs through the country cunningly evading the hounds until they eventually lose his scent or the fox uh goes to ground in his den okay so they're just they're just fucking with it yeah they're not even eating it at the end hunting is very is different every day blah blah blah the fox and the scent determine the pace jesus christ we just chase it till it dies of a fucking heart attack what the fuck yeah this is that's if you did that to why is that legal if you did that to a person you know what i mean like you just chased a guy until he ran into his house yay i mean technically i guess

you could say i was just running and then you decided to run too. Doesn't mean I was chasing you. Unless you go, I'm going to get you, motherfucker. That would be a different story. But if you just run and someone else runs too, you're just running. I'm talking about if you got a pack of dogs chasing some dude and a bunch of assholes on horseback

and we're all just chasing this guy until he goes into his house, that's fucking assault, right? Yeah, that's... Stalking? I think that's what's what the clan did that's not good that's terrible shit and you're gonna protect that fox so that you can go do it again in fucking four days hey can you leave him alone we're gonna go chase him again you leave him alone till we get to fuck with him oh my god non-riding members known as supporters can car follow the hunt what is this what are you driving behind so then there's a what a bunch of jeeps and then a bunch of uh upper crust but wig douchebags and

stupid riding outfits on horses in front of you then a pack of dogs and then one little fox out in the front trying to couple of dudes and teslas to keep it quiet so weird you can car follow and also partake in the various social functions such as hunt breakfast after sunday hunts or our annual hunt ball blessing of the hounds on our formal opening day and various private parties throughout the season these people do like eyes wide shut parties right for sure there's got to be fucking involved yeah there's some fingers in buttholes it's everything is covered in jizz after a sunday with this these people this is creepy as fuck what a weird thing yeah i'm done reading about these people crime rate in this town what we're interested in here uh the property crime here is very low it is 71 percent lower than the national average so much lower yeah very low

and then the violent crime rate murder rape robbery and assault the mount rushmore of crime is even lower 73 percent lower than the national average super safe so it's a farm town the middle of nowhere this story is the ultimate you're never safe right that's what this show is about this small town murder from the beginning the reason why i thought it was a fun idea not fun but kind of scary and intriguing to me is a creepy thing is that nobody's ever safe never and you feel like well maybe if i can go here then i'll be safer and if i move to a small town it'll be nice and quiet right no it's still there up twice a week and get on horseback yeah chase a fox for apparently no reason there's no reward no none nothing they don't

even get the fox i mean there's not like i got this pelt afterwards or whatever hunters are after weird shit stuff it and put it somewhere i don't know but you don't eat a fox right you just take the fur from i don't think this doesn't seem like a lot and red dead redemption you do but i don't know if that's real life they eat them it's a video game oh god it's like a ps4 game i don't know but they eat in that they eat the fucking fox and you don't you eat what you know you sell the you sell the thing so it's trading yeah you trade because you sell the pelts right so you sit there and you carve and rip the pelts off and you throw the meat on the ground gross because you don't want it that seems terrible that seems disgusting vicious yeah it is so but this is the ultimate story of you are never safe

no matter how idyllic you make your life no matter how removed you are no matter how perfect everything is anything could happen so that said let's talk about a murder let's talk about a young lady first of all here uh like i said this isn't won't be a long story but it's going to be a good story deborah s margolin is 17 years old okay debbie she's known as 17 years old this is in august of 1973 yeah so we're talking summer vacation summer vacation she's going into her senior year of high school so this is like the golden time of high school if there is one once it sucks right but that that oh we're almost done that feels good at least anyway so she is a straight eight straight a student at uh hunterton central high

school she's uh an officer in the class she's elected you know class something yep and a member of the band as well okay so she's active she's smart she's engaged and talented, apparently talented, doing well, pretty 17 going into her senior year. The life the world could not be more your oyster for this young lady. You know what I mean? In the 70s, in the 70s. As a matter of fact, it's so her oyster that even she even comes from wealth and privilege and nice people. She's the daughter of Dr. And Mrs.

Solomon Margolin. Stop it. And nice people. She's the daughter of Dr. and Mrs. Solomon Margolin. She is, Dr. Margolin is a pharmacologist with a business degree from, oh, I'm sorry, with a business in Princeton, New Jersey. Okay. So he makes good money. Pharmacologist?

Pharmacologist. Who the fuck does he do? I don't know. He's a pharmacist or some sort? He makes medicine. It seems like above. Yeah. You're not just counting or whatever. You're like. He's like a surgeon of pills. Yeah. I don't know if he makes medicine. It seems like above. You're not just counting or whatever.

You're like, he's like a surgeon of pills. Yeah, I don't know what the hell he's chopping them up in a little piece and snorting them. I don't know. It's a little bit of Vicodin. Let's cut this in. Advil, how about Vicodinville? Take me to Vicodinville. Yeah, get viked up.

He formerly also served on the east amwell board of education so very very very bright man obviously here and um she is also um oh he owns afflicted medical research oh affiliated medical research of princeton afflicted afflicted it's like people are fucked up we're fixing them sounds like uh the the company that joe rogan and dana white uh yeah contracted every fight yeah the afflicted medical research for to check the guy's heads yeah so yeah that's what he owns so he owns like a medical research company yeah does pretty well for himself right i feel like he does okay the margolins, in addition to having Debbie, they also have three sons. David, who at the time is 25 years old.

He's a mining engineer who was home visiting his family for some time during the summer. He's here in August as well. It's kind of a whole family hanging out at the farmhouse. And there's also Bernard, who's 23, and Daniel, who are 21, and they both still live at home. I think they were finishing up school or something like that. David, Daniel, Bernard, and Debbie. And Debbie. Yeah, Bernard with the B.

Everybody else gets a D. And he's the middle boy, too, which makes no sense. I can see the younger one. They're like, we're not doing it anymore. The older one, they didn't think of it yet. But the middle one? What are you doing? It's very strange.

Not you. Right. You don't fit in. You, you, you. One of these things is not like the others he can't come for ice cream now the morning of august 13th 1973 comes around lazy summer day 11 30 a.m yeah so i mean think about they probably just woke up you know as a kid as a teenager going out there lazy summer day deborah here 17 years old is tough life she's sunbathing on the patio of her parents farmhouse here in east amwell township new jersey hanging out getting ready for

life to become much better for her she's wearing a two-piece bathing suit and um she's just laying out she's hanging having a great time probably loving it yeah she's what is it 73 she's got some sort of terrible music on pop but it's probably some bad pop though from back maybe yeah so i'm not thinking the good stuff i'm thinking the it's not what you call classic rock now no crap yeah um now while she's there a white car drives up to the house and the driver beeps the horn several times several times up and this is it's set apart from stuff so you have to make a commitment to come here this isn't like you people don't pull in and use a driveway to turn around or anything it's a farmhouse for christ's sake they have cows and shit here okay so they have cows uh now the girl's brother uh her brothers daniel and bernard were upstairs and they looked

out from the windows and they saw a dusty white vehicle with what they called two severe dents in the right side of it okay so it's fucked up it's all fucked up and he's like that's drivable yeah someone was like it still drives A tire don't rub too bad. Right. It's only when I hit deep pockets. I mean, eventually that extra will rub off and it'll be fine. They'll clear it. And its trunk is tied shut with some sort of rope or.

This car is barely roadworthy. It's a pile of shit. Yeah. There's a male driver in it, which doesn't surprise me, who wore loose fitting clothing and quote, this is what the brother said, quote, looked like a factory worker. So this is what an upper crud that sounds like. And I don't mean to pick on the guy, but he's a kid. But I mean, to say, like, he looked like a factory worker.

I don't know, some sort of factory worker approached. Disjointed vehicle. Approached the estate. I said, we have no scraps for you. Like Bernard. He doesn't belong here. for you like bernard he doesn't belong here yeah bernard tell him he doesn't belong here then hop in the car and go with go with so you go yeah so uh daniel heard the man tell deborah that he saw a heifer was loose a cow a cow is loose down at the bottom of the driveway.

They have cows, so he was driving by, saw a cow down there, and was like, those people probably don't want their cows to be loose. And in farm country, you see this, you do a neighbor return. If you see their cow, you don't want to let it wander away. Those are expensive. Yeah. Now me, oh, looks like their cow's coming out. Out of my business.

I'm keeping going. Ooh, somebody's gonna hit that thing that cow could be about to steal their car it could be like hot wiring it i'd be like i'm out of my business i don't know anything about so she um deborah ends up uh um saying well okay shit god damn it because this isn't this isn't uncommon if you have cows so she says i'll take care of it fine tells the brothers i got it don't worry about it in her bikini in her bikini she's gonna go round up the heifer that's how this works so it's about 11 30 she takes off um to look for the heifer and um like four or five hours go by and she doesn't come home oh like where the hell is she with this heifer like she should you know an

hour tops to get a cow back here finally at 5 at 545, they are really starting to be like, OK, what's going on here? So they notify police, say, my daughter's missing. Can you help us look for her? The only thing they have is that she told her brother she didn't need any help getting the cow because he's like, you want me to come help you? And she's like, I got it. want me to come help you and she's like i got it and uh she got into uh her the family's car one of the family's cars and drove down the driveway and followed the guy in the white car because he was leaving so that's how that worked and that's the last time they saw her so later that afternoon she doesn't come home like i said they searched the area everywhere um they don't find a cow but they do find in a stream oh no they find uh deborah there

and uh not in a good state of affairs uh deborah is uh very much not alive face down in a stream fuck uh yeah her throat had been slashed severing her windpipe and her jugular ah the worst so a very deep violent that's a violent deep slash. You've got to really put some muscle into that one. It's like an eight-year-old kid didn't do that. That's an angry adult right there. She was nude, except for part of her bathing suit

was around her waist. And this is rough here. Stab and cutting wounds had been inflicted in the pelvic and vaginal area as well yeah um and her right breast had also been stabbed noticeably some attention had been paid to that golly and a lot of times when you get this sort of attack this is a guy who he's rageful against women he's rageful and this is a guy who wants to sexually assault the person and can't right because of their own that's what happens a lot so then they use a an instrument to take it out on it because i can't

just because my body my shit's fucked up so the yeah that's you know the psychology of someone who would do that so this obviously is is insane this doesn't happen around here they go nuts i mean windows are boarded up this is uh strangers everybody keep an eye people are loading their rifles and their shotguns and people are like sitting on the roofs making sure no one's driving up to their houses people are not fucking around about this they moved here to not deal with this shit to your kids especially a doctor this guy figures out christ almighty i got this nice business i'll move my kids out to somewhere super safe they'll go to good schools they'll follow in my footsteps or do whatever the hell they want them to do and keep them out of newark keep them

out of the get a camden and this you know everything's going to be fine and then so who could have done this boy oh boy boy oh boy here now people felt um the brother here bernard he spotted later on because you know they're looking a couple days go by he spots a car fitting um the description of the car they saw in the driveway yeah he sees that car yeah that stands out a smidge it stands out exactly. And the same car, a road crew had halted his vehicle that very same day that he came the same day he had contact that this car had contact with Deborah. This car had been stopped by a road crew and the road crew person said they saw a paper bag, a brown paper bag, which someone else uh saw him used to try to clean off the seat of his car okay they saw him like wiping his car his car seat off with a brown paper bag weird yeah like wiping it down while he was stopped at a road you know you know they make one lane so they can fix the pavement exactly i guess he was the first one in line so they could see what he was doing there and uh yeah there's also right after that there is uh they find out the man

whose car that belongs to and we'll talk about him in a second here his name is frank melvin miller jr yeah of course um if you listen to crime and sports you'll understand what that means but inordinate amount of juniors turn out to be it's it is fascinating it's fascinating i don't know why and it's either them or the dad or they named it yeah the hubris between the two makes a potent violent cocktail very violent and very potent here i met a man recently i his name was junior and i asked him uh i said i have i have a theory how many duis do you have and he goes none he goes but my dad has three. That makes all the sense.

Perfect. You nailed it. I'm still batting 1,000 here. That's what I mean. So this Miller that they find, because they're looking into him because his car matches a description, they do a little poking around. They find out that that very day, or the next day after the girl disappeared, Deborah, that that very day or the next day after the girl disappeared deborah uh he visited a the hospital room of a guy named henry putcher at the huntington or hunderton medical center putcher was there for

injury suffered when his motorcycle was involved in a side swipe with miller's car that's what those dents are so that's probably yeah that's what the dents are and it's here that miller franklin melvin miller jr tried to tell this putcher he goes to the hospital and goes yeah you you left your bunch of your there's a bunch of your blood in my car from the accident so somehow he like blood shot out of his body through the window and all over the seat of the car which is that's some wild blood it came out of his ear on impact just yeah it sloshes out like a cup that's some wild blood. It came out of his ear on impact. It sloshes out like a cup that's too full. You know what I mean? Got a lot of blood in your body.

As he went across the hood, he threw some at the passenger seat. I think he just chucked it in there. That's what he said. So that's an odd visit. He goes, yeah, that's weird. And they do find blood on Miller's car seat. And it turns out that it's the same blood type,

no DNA back in in 1973 as Deborah. So they're interested in Franklin here. Blood in his car, car seen at the scene, same blood type as the victim. They do a little digging into his past here. The description they get, they know once they hear the description of the car, they look for him immediately. Small area, car that stands out. Last guy that saw her. Yeah.

The cops know the guy with the trunk that's tied closed. They pull that car over. They notice it. They're like, that'll be dead on the side of the road one day. So they they find out that he was had been convicted in 1969 as a on a charge of carnal abuse. We'll talk about what that was and it also been arrested a month before this happened with deborah july july 10th 1973 on a morals charge of contributing to the delinquency of a minor he likes young girls it sounds like the record of him is that

he's born in 1940 in his youth he got in trouble in school for pinching girls breasts in school like like like hard yeah not like sexually like oh i'm getting off on feeling your boob like in a creepy weird way violent titty twister just yeah pinching girls boobs i don't know if they wouldn't let him touch him so he got mad and pinched him that's not the way you get him what age is he doing this in In middle school, high school. Yeah. When there's boobs. Yeah.

I mean. All right. For that, it would have been probably pointless. Just the chest. Yeah. And made sexually explicit comments to them. This is in the 50s. So you can't do that at school.

And stole females' clothes when they hung outside to dry. Like Jerry Bruto style style stealing shoes he would go through the neighborhood and steal women's like underwear and clothes off of clothes lines and shit and then fuck them probably fuck them um somehow after this he gets married and has four children what good god help us all yeah and he's divorced thanks shit in 1973 he's working as a laborer at pf and d plastics in flemington oh god yeah it sounds awful it sounds like it stinks yeah it sounds bad smells like burning plastic in up in flemington yeah it sounds like there's phlegm involved everybody is walking around you that plastic it's just stuck in my throat the fumes of everywhere you go in jersey what

are you from flemington it's flemington oh yeah that's where i work at the plastic i can smell it coming off of you so the day of uh the day of the debbie disappearing he showed up for work that day at 3 p.m scheduled as because they wanted to see if he showed up for work because usually murderers don't show up for work that day they skipped the day he showed up at 3 p.m so somehow between 11 30 and 3 they're saying he killed her got cleaned up and got himself composed enough to go to work the plastics factory fascinating that's what it is um he's taken into custody that day the day they find him at work they go and find him and they take him into custody at 10 30 p.m that's when they take him in there um they also find outm that's when they take him in there

they also find out and that's when they dig into his past and find his criminal record yeah in 1968 he was arrested for this is when he's 28 years old for raping a 13 year old girl that's the carnal abuse uh while wearing a woman no this is a different oh my god while wearing a woman's stocking over his head oh you know to make it extra terrifying for the poor kid. For a fucking eighth grader. Oh, my God. That's disturbing. So right away, he's a monster.

An absolute fucking monster. He was convicted of carnal abuse and served three and a half years of a 12 to 15 year sentence that's the carnal abuse charge that's what they call carnal abuse yeah he did three and a half years for raping a 13 year old girl with a woman's stocking on his fucking head and and the charge isn't even no it doesn't even define no what he really did no he should be charged with rape and i mean i don't know what carnal abuse was meant in terms of the law back then because it sounds awful but it doesn't sound like raping a fucking 13 year old child that'll really that's got some stink to it that'll stick

around a little longer stank to it you're gonna put that on a billboard people's eyes are gonna holy shit what the hell are you talking about up there? Carnal abuse sounds like, I don't know, what you should be arrested for, for mounting a horse and chasing a fox. Carnal abuse is like what Mark Shimora did. Yeah. That was like carnal abuse. Yeah. If it's his story and not what she said.

Right. If it's what the court decided, then that would be like carnal abuse. What they settled on. He went in a hot tub with a teenager, but nothing happened. That would be whatever, but not this. so they let him out and subside but nothing you know still a problem and still a charge but not you know not rape it's different it's just gross and it's carnal abuse and still putting you in jail i'm not okay with it yeah that's gonna lead to something we should probably wrap those people up.

Everyone step in here. Got in a hot tub with somebody else's 13-year-old. That should be a carnal abuse. That's bad stuff. So he's paroled in September of 72. So not very long. This is July of 73. He's arrested again.

This is for fornication and contributing to the delinquency of a minor which was the 16 year old daughter of a co-worker my christ so he found a co-worker's 16 year old daughter got her fucked up and nailed her so this is disgusting and she i guess she did it willingly so it's yes so it's not right it's not right it's still disgusting disgusting and it's still statutory and it's still absolutely gross. He receives a two to three year sentence for the crime to run consecutive to a sentence received for violating parole. So he's still on parole from his first offense and on bail from his second from a month ago here. They let him out on bail for some reason.

They didn't just violate his parole and keep him in right he's arrested for doing the same fucking thing again yeah but since it's not with someone so young they let him bail out not so young and uh sans uh uh pantyhose yeah on his head so if they would have just violated his parole right here he's not out a month later yeah for this whole thing which is exactly with charles manson same thing if they would just violated him on his parole any of the 10 times he was arrested that year this none of this shit would happen so he's jailed on july 10th uh there that was the the one the month before he was released on a 2500 property bond put up by his parents who he lived with so the arresting officer in that case a month before is also participating in the deborah margolin homicide case here now noted the description

of the car seen in the driveway he goes i know that guy and i know what he likes and it's young girls and it would be her in a bikini on the goddamn porch when he pulled up he probably saw her from the road right it was like circle back what a beeline. Pass, circle back, what can I say? Loose heifer. Loose heifer. Also, the appearance is the same one, the description given by witnesses. So they question him. They bring him in at 10.50 p.m. that day, right from the plastics factory in Flemington, right from the phlegm factory. And they have some conversation where he gave the officers permission to examine his car, which was parked there.

He agreed to accompany them to barracks for questioning. They arrived at the barracks at 1149. The questioning began a little bit later and lasted for only 58 minutes. Okay. So it's late at night, but he's a second shift guy. He doesn't go to bed. He's not normally asleep. This is four in the afternoon for him he gets off of work at midnight and then gets shit-faced probably all

night and goes to bed at six and then wakes up at two and goes to work that's probably his schedule yeah so uh he stayed read him his miranda rights and he expressed his willingness to talk without an attorney being present however he asked for and was given reassurance that his right to stop at any time and remain silent if he wanted to so he then signed and was given reassurance that his right to stop at any time and remain silent if he wanted to so he then signed and dated his miranda rights card and in the beginning he he denied any involvement in the episode with debbie margolin at the farmhouse or the death or anything don't know shit about it never been there uh nothing so uh this goes on a little bit they talk for a little while like i said not very long

the whole thing takes 58 minutes luckily though there is a taped transcript of this whole thing hell yeah that went down and uh the transcript was ends up being read in its entirety to the court as a matter of fact oh yeah uh later on there on, there is a... Now, we'll start here with... We are going to do an edition of Small Town Murder Peace Theater, which is our little back and forth. Jimmy, you are the D. That's for defendant. And I am the T for trooper.

We just made you be dickhead. For dickhead. I only made you the criminal or the alleged at this point before the end of this confession criminal because it's less reading yeah and i'm a stronger reader it's the only reason why honestly i swear to god i oftentimes struggle once in a while jimmy will struggle with that i did think recently that my daughter might be uh dyslexic because she's struggling with reading. And then I was like, maybe she's just, I don't know, my daughter. Maybe she's a wistman.

So this, as you can see at the top, I circled the first two because I accidentally. Okay, there we go. I got a D. I can read Ds. Yeah, that's good. I can see that. So he said, this went back and forth a little bit

and there was a minor discrepancy in Franklin's timetable. So the trooper pressed a little bit and he said, OK, now this is a problem. I realize this is a problem. And he pointed out that the vehicle had damage and all that. And then he goes into this small town murder piece theater. An idiot being confessed. An idiot being tricked.

Here we go. Quote. Here we go. There was Quote, here we go. There was blood on the left front interior portion of your vehicle tonight. Fresh blood. Fresh blood? Yes, sir. This is very, very serious.

I don't realize this. That's the point here. We have a witness, Frank. Now, this is the point. This is point four. We have a witness who identified your car who, no, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, let me, I shouldn't say your car, who identified a vehicle that fits the description of your car at this girl's home, speaking with her, telling her something about a cow being loose or something like

that. Someone who was there who wanted to help her and they didn't want to hurt this girl. That's what I heard. They didn't want to hurt this girl, Frank what i heard they didn't want to hurt this girl frank they wanted to help her you see i know this i know that yeah yeah because i can appreciate that because i would have done the same thing if there was something to be rectified if somebody had a problem i would have done the same thing i would have wanted to help her the that vehicle came on to the property yeah right fits the description of your vehicle it does yes now that's the fourth

point and when i say fits the description what i mean frank it fits the description to a t and we talked about before remember we talked about how many other vehicles are there like yours in the county right there shouldn't be too many if any if any because of the damage on the right hand side now what would your conclusion be under those circumstances if someone told you that i'd probably uh i'd have to say the same conclusion you got which is what that i'm the guy that that did this that did what committed this crime okay now he talks about the description talks about that a little bit we'll get into that now he says frank i don't think you're a criminal i don't think you're a criminal i don't think you're a criminal i don't think you have a criminal mind as a matter of fact i don't even i know you don't have a criminal mind because

we've been talking now for a few hours together haven't we right right right right yeah so you don't have a criminal mind no i know you don't but I noted before, we all have problems. Right. Am I right? Right. Yeah. You did this over there at the plant. You said, wait, you said this over the plant. Yeah. And you agreed with me. Yes, sir. I have problems and you have.

Right. Right. Okay. So now how do you solve a problem? That depends on the problem. Your problem. How do we solve it? How are we going to solve it?

This I don't know. Do you want me to help you? Yeah. Do you want me to help you solve it? How are we going to solve it? This I don't know. Do you want me to help you? Yeah. Do you want me to help you solve it? Yeah. Yeah. Do you want me to extend all the help I can possibly give you? Don't you? Right.

Right. Are you willing to do the same for me? Yeah. Okay. Now I feel. Yeah. Whoever, whoever's responsible for this act. Yeah.

He's not a criminal. Does not have a criminal mind. I think they have a problem. Uh-huh. Do you agree with me? Yeah does not have a criminal mind i think they have a problem uh-huh do you agree with me yeah they have a problem right right a problem and a good thing about that frank is a problem can be rectified yeah i want to help you i mean i really want to help you but you know what they say god helps those who help themselves frank right we've got to get together on this you know what i'm talking about don't you yes especially if they're trying to say that you know like that like you say i'm identified and my car's identified and uh we got to get we got to get together on this yes we do now there's not

it's only a few of the items that we have now your problem i'm not let's forget this incident okay yeah i bet he would like to let's forget this incident let's talk about your problem this is what this is what i'm concerned with frank your problem right if i had a problem like your problem i would want you to help me with my problem now you know what i'm talking about yeah and i know and i think that uh a lot of other people know you know what i'm talking about i don't think you're a criminal frank no but you're trying to make me one no no no i'm not i'm not i but i want to talk to you i want you to talk to me so we can get this thing worked out and that's that's what i'm saying this is what i want frank i mean it's all there it's all there i'm not saying this is uh you know this this is

whatever if she the victim was was to walk in here now i wouldn't know i i wouldn't know that that she was the girl you're talking about but you were identified as being there talking to her minutes before she was probably this thing happened to her how can you explain that i can't why i don't know why you know i you know how can i explain something that i don't know anything about frank look you want you want help don't you frank yeah but yes but i'm i'm not i'm not gonna admit to something that i wasn't involved in we we don't want you to i nobody wants that all i want you to do is talk to me that's all i'm not talking about admitting to anything frank i want you to talk to me i want you to. Nobody wants that. All I want you to do is talk to me. That's all. I'm not talking about admitting to anything, Frank.

I want you to talk to me. I want you to tell me what you think. I want me to tell you how you feel about this, what you think about this. What do I think about it? Yeah. I think whoever did it really needs help. And that's what I think. And that's what I know.

They don't need punishment, right? Like you said, they need help. Right. Right. They don't need punishment. They need help you said, they need help. Right. Right. They don't need punishment. They need help. Good medical help. That's right.

To rectify their problem. Putting them in prison isn't going to solve it, is it? No, sir. I know I was in there for three and a half years. That's right. That's not going to solve your problem, is it? No, you get no help down there. The only thing you learn how to do is, you know.

Well, let's say this, Frank. Suppose you were the person who needed help. Let's say it was you. It helped me. What would you want somebody to do for you? Help me. In what way? In any way they see.

You know, fit. That would help me. Okay. Well, then did you still feel this way that something might happen uh that might happen it would be their fault because as far as i'm concerned if something did happen it's not your fault it's their fault right right uh now listen to me frank this hurts me more than it hurts you because i love people it can't hurt you any more than it hurts me okay listen frank i want you i mean even even being involved in something like this.

Okay. Listen, Frank, I pro if I promise to, you know, do all I can do with the psychiatrist and everything, and we can get the proper help for you and get the proper help for you. Will you talk to me about it? I can't talk to you about something. I'm not. All right. All right.

All right. Listen, Frank. All right. Honest. I know. I know what's going on inside you, Frank. I want to help you. You know, between us right now, I know what's going on inside of you, Frank. You've come to forward and tell me that you want to help yourself. You've got to talk to me about it. This is the only way we'll be able to work it out. I mean,

you know, listen, I want to help you because you're in my mind. And in my mind, you are not responsible. You're not responsible, Frank. Frank, what's the matter? I feel bad. Frank, listen to me. Honest to God, I'm telling you, Frank, I know it's going to bother you. Frank, it's going to bother you. It's there.

It's not going to go away. It's there. It's right in front of you, Frank. Am I right or wrong? Yeah. You can see it, Frank. You can feel it. You can feel it, but you're not responsible. That's what I'm trying'm trying to tell you that's what i keep saying but you've got to come

forward and tell me don't don't don't let it eat you up don't don't fight it you've got to rectify it frank you've got to we've got to get together on this thing i mean really you need help you need you need proper help and you know it my god you know you know it. In God's name, you know it. You're not a criminal. You're not a criminal. All right. Yes, I was over there and I talked to her about the car and I left. I left in my car and I stopped up on the road where the cow had been and she followed me in her car.

Okay, you killed this girl, didn't you? No, I didn't. Hon it's got it it's got to come out you can't leave it in it's it's hard for you i realize i realize how hard it is it's difficult i realize that but you've got to help yourself before anybody can help you and we're going to see to it that you get the proper help frank this is our job frank this is our job this is what i want to do by sending me me back down there? Wait a second now. Don't talk about going back down there. First thing we have to do is let's let it all come out.

Don't fight it because it's worse, Frank. It's worse. It's hurting me because I feel it. I feel it wanting to come out. That's the thing. But it's hurting me. Frank, you're my brother. I mean, we're brothers.

All men on this face of this earth are brothers frank but you got to be completely honest with me i'm trying to be but you don't want to believe me i want to believe you frank but i want you to tell me the truth frank i and you you know what i'm talking about and you know i know you know what i'm talking about you've got to tell me the truth i can't help you without the truth, Frank. I'm telling you the truth. Sure, that's her blood in my car. Because when I see the way she was cut, I wanted to help her.

And then she fell over and I got scared to even be involved in something like this, being on parole. I realize this. I realize this, Frank. It may have been an accident. Isn't that possible, Frank? Sure, it's possible. Well, this is what I'm trying to bring out, Frank. It may be something that you did and you can't be held accountable for, or this is,

I mean, I can help you. I can help you once you tell me the truth. You know what I'm talking about. I want to help you, Frank. I like you. You've been honest with me. You've been sincere, and I've been the same way with you. Now, this is the kind of relationship we have, but I can't help you unless you tell me just the complete truth. I'll listen to you. I'll understand. I understand, Frank. You have to believe that. I understand. I understand how you feel. I understand how much it hurts you inside. I understand how you feel because I feel it too, because someday I may be in the same situation, Frank, but you've got to help yourself. Tell me exactly what happened. Tell me the truth, Frank. Frank, please. I'm telling you the truth. Let me help you. It could have been an accident. You've got to tell me the truth, Frank. You know

what I'm talking about. I can't help you without the truth. Now, you know and I know that's all that counts, Frank. You know and I know what that's what that's all that counts frank you know you know and i know what that's what counts and that's what it's all about we can't hide it from each other because we both know you've got to be willing to help yourself you know i don't think you're a criminal you have this problem like we talked about before right yeah you you say this now but the thing goes to court and everything no no no listen to no. Listen to me, Frank, please. You know, the issue now is what happened. The truth is now.

The truth is now. The issue is now. Truth is the issue now. You've got to believe this. And the truth prevails in the end, Frank. You've got to believe that. And I'm sincere when I'm saying it to you. You've got to be truthful with yourself.

Yeah, truth. You say in the end, right? That's why I done three and a half years for. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. For a crime I never committed. And one stinking detective framing me. Frank, Frank. The name Morocco.

Frank, Frank, you're talking to me now. We have a relationship, don't we? Have I been sincere with you, Frank? Yeah, you. Have I been honest? Yes. Have I defined your problem, Frank? Have I been willing to help you? Have I stated I'm willing to help you I been honest? Yes. Have I defined your problem, Frank? Have I been willing to help you?

Have I stated I'm willing to help you all I can? Yes. Do I mean it? Yes. Whenever I talk to anybody, I talk the same way because you have a very, very serious problem. And we want to prevent anything in the future. This is what's important, Frank. Not what happened in the past.

None of that. It's right now. We're living now, Frank. We want to help you past. None of that. It's right now. We're living now, Frank. We want to help you. You've got a lot more years to live. No, I don't. Yes, yes, you do. No, I don't.

Don't say you don't. No, you've got to tell me. Not after all this, because this is going to kill my father. Listen, Frank. Frank, this is where the truth comes out. Your father will understand. This is what you have to understand, Frank. If the truth is out, he'll understand.

That's the most important thing, not what has happened. Frank, the fact is you were truthful. You came forward and you said, look, I have a problem. I didn't mean to do what I did. I have a problem. This is what's important, Frank. This is very important. I got to get closer to you, Frank.

I got to make you believe this. And I'm sincere when I tell you this. You've got to tell me exactly what happened, Frank. That's very important. I know how you feel inside, Frank. It's eating you up. Am I right? It's eating you up, Frank.

You've got to come forward. You've got to do it for yourself, for your family, for your father. This is what's important. The truth, Frank. Just tell me. You didn't mean to kill her did you i thought she was dead or i'd have never dropped her off like that i mean frank this is hurting me god listen i just want you to come out and tell me so i can help you and that's it and then she he goes on to say that uh sure that's the blood in the car and he goes on to say that uh basically he was stabbing her uh then he goes on to say he stabbed her with his pen knife oh god a little bit

yeah just a little bit just just he goes on to say cut her up in like the chest and in the back well he says that um wow here it is right here he says that he's been that was a lot of fun i'm gonna be honest with you that was good yes i really want to be the job i don't think you want to be that guy but uh i want to play him yes he's a lot of fun he was he's so short he's so he's he's an idiot straight to the point yeah so uh he says that um he was unable to get it find the car the girl the cow the girl got into his car to go down the road to see if the cow was there. They drove down by the bridge where he took a penknife from his pocket and started cutting her. He said that he had no real recollection of what he did to the girl or why, although he remembered throwing her body off the bridge.

So he tossed her off the bridge into the stream. After the incident, he said he drove home and using a hose, he washed the blood from the seat of the car. In order to answer the officer's inquiry here, he said he would be willing to write it all in a formal statement. At this point, at the end of the interrogation, before a written statement could be prepared, he collapses on the floor. Collapses. In his testimony, the troopers described it as quote a state of shock unquote he'd been sitting up in a chair and slid off the chair onto the floor maintaining a blank stare on his face staring straight ahead and we were unable to get any kind of verbal response from him at the time catatonic what a fucking asshole That is just sheer panic. That is pathetic.

That's pathetic. Oh, my God. So they said he had a nervous breakdown. His eyes went up in his head and he keeled over as if he had fainted. A first aid squad was contacted and he was taken to the hospital. Our concern for the treatment of the defendant and the patent denial of due process is substantially tempered by our conviction of the defendant's guilt. That's them talking about this. He's going to be fucking guilty, but it's basically what they're saying.

And yeah, he goes to trial. And the whole thing about it is that they he says that the confession shouldn't be in because the cop tricked him. Okay. A tricked him because the cop told him he cared about him and was on the path to saying after this is all over we should get an apartment yeah like i'll come visit you and i'll get your christmas presents sunday it's gonna be great hey the patriots game this is new jersey the last one was uh new haven giants will be on soon hey the jets game's coming up it's more more of an eagles fan

you know it's an hour in between so this this is like his whole thing is like he said that also that he had a witness and he said well he lied to me about the witness and all that but i don't know how it was in 1973 the laws were because i mean miranda had just kind of come in so the laws were a lot different nowadays you're allowed to lie like a motherfucker. If you read the homicide book, put your hand on a Xerox machine and that's a lie detector test. That's that's fine. Thing is, if you got nothing to hide, just tell the truth. Yeah.

I mean, obviously, some things are coerced and shit like that. But this this is that's not coercion. That is talking someone into telling you the truth. How else would you how else would you interrogate a person? Yeah, how else do you just come in and go, I think you did this. No, you go, no, I didn't. I got to go. Yeah.

Did you kill her? No. All right. That's all I got. I can't lie to the guy. Uncuff him from the desk. What did you say? I didn't do it.

I don't know. What are you going to do? That's all the words I got for him. You sure? I don't want to push it. Don't you lie to me. Don't you going to do? What am I going to say? It's all the words I got for him. You sure? I don't want to push it. Don't you lie to me. Don't you lie to me, boy. I swear to God I'll come over that desk choking on the young girls.

So that's what I mean. This is like, this to me is a standard modern day police interrogation. This guy's just ahead of his time. And he, this is exactly exactly he gave him the window he that little window it was an accident wasn't frank you didn't mean it you wouldn't do this you don't have a criminal mind you're not a bad guy you can do this it's oh maybe i can get out maybe if i tell him i can talk my way out of this he gave him every little trick i'm your brother i'm this i'm that it's fascinating too watching the the de-evolution of his statement go no i didn't do nothing uh

she was already dead yeah well i saw her i mean she was already dead i thought she was dead that's why i threw her there i don't remember i don't remember stabbing her in her private parts that turns into there exactly so in court they go yeah no that's in you're fucked and uh he is convicted of first degree murder wow and sentenced you sir may fuck off life with with a chance of parole why did they why would you give him a chance why is he getting so many chances he progressed exactly the way you expect someone to progress and sorry asshole so much for strike three uh 1984 appeals, and it's the confession is the big thing. He says that it's trickery, cajolery, dissembling, and exaggeration. And they have a complete deal of the transcript.

And the state court overturns the conviction based on the confession being coerced out of him, which that's the least coerced. It was like an hour long. It's an hour long. You can't coerced out of him which that's the least coerced it was like an hour long it's an hour long you can't coerce someone if someone can't fend someone's not even physical anything just verbal assault for an hour then you're not tough enough to be a murderer sir i'm sorry what's gonna happen in prison so um this is this is goddamn ridiculous and uh um she uh they do this so the cop who did the interrogation he says he did it fine he said that's how you're supposed to do an interrogation he said quote i would not

have done it differently he noted the state police receive instruction on the technique of interrogation he said the compulsion to confess is there the only problem is to find the proper key the window it's a little window he added you proceed with caution you try to find the proper key the window it's a little window he added you proceed with caution you try to protect the state's rights the people's rights and his rights miller's rights this is what i tried to do it wasn't as if uh miller had not gone through this all before he'd been this isn't his first time in an interrogation room remember he's got two forcible whatever the rape offenses he said he could have stopped it at any time i read read him his rights. He said, you know, you told him you want to stop, we can stop.

He didn't want to stop. Did you see anywhere on that tape where he said stop? No. So the reaction was, after that getting thrown out, Mrs. Margolin is very upset. Sure. She says, what bothers me is we're no longer concerned

with guilt or innocence, but just a technicality. What difference does it make if you punish Miller or you don't? We have to eliminate the sickness in society my husband's making the drugs for it she said i'd hate to think what a new trial would be without the confession she was barred from the trial because the fear that her distraught state at the time might somehow cause a mistrial so they had her banned from the room her husband here is the developer of contact what the drug contact are you serious yes that's what he did that's the uh acid reflux shit is it okay well he did that yeah a manager of a drug refurb wow he told the press contact money yeah

he's got dough we all know who did it. The problem is to find a proper legal frame. So at least they're smart and they understand what's going on. But the state, they appeal the appeal of that. And on this appeal, they say, you know what? After all, no retrial. Good. Fuck off. Get fucking off, you scumbag asshole.

Yeah, good. Because this guy's a dickhead. I have no sympathy for this guy whatsoever. I mean mean even if there is let's say for the sake of the argument there's some gray area in the in the confession that that makes it feel a little a little iffy without that it's there's no way to retry it no this man is dangerous as fuck oh he's gonna go out let's tow the gray line on this one yeah especially because we we know he did it right we know what

he's capable of he did it and he had blood in his car and all the he did it absolutely no and this is his pattern he's a he's a serial predator if he didn't get caught for this he'd have done it again and again and again and again somebody else's daughter is going to disappear it would have gotten worse and worse and younger and younger probably too as he got more and more brazen um it's absolutely ridiculous um they said that they his lawyer tried to say they improperly used mind-bending psychological compulsion did that sound that's the reason why we read that all out yeah because i i you i wanted is that mind-bending not a bit i have done i have done more to convince my kids to eat a food they don't like like i've cajoled more than that to get my son to eat a vegetable than i have for that the words

the detective said were not a bit of it even led to i would never go down the path of of the confession from the words that that guy no never once never if i didn't do it no i'd be like what do you fuck i are you fucking deaf i don't care if someone does have a problem it ain't me and i'm going home i got off my shift at the plastic factory i went out of here so he goes up for appeals and parole became eligible for parole in 1991 oh my god but was given a 12 year fuck off basically but they have to see him again in 1998 even though it's not 12 years because of a law that was passed in 1980 that tells you that uh that if you are convicted for life with you have to get a hearing after 25 years so it's 25 years from 73 to 98 so he can't

be held longer so um they do that they look at him they go i don't think so back to jail with you since 98 he's received annual review hearings um he has received a one month reduction in one of his things uh following each hearing that could be conducted where he see i don't know even know what that means so they they see him again in 11 months next time yeah that's pretty much what it is here um but he was up again for parole they had a whole thing you couldn't write to the parole board saying don't let this fucking guy out um somebody said here i'm writing back reminding the parole board that we had an informal hearing and that i vigorously oppose his release that's the district attorney i've done everything i can do so far

i'm going to monitor this closely it's everybody's scared that he's going to get off in 2010 he argues that on appeal that in 1998 and all subsequent annual review hearings information pertaining to a different inmate with a similar name mistaken identity to the max frank t miller yeah not frank m miller but a different criminal history was utilized as a consequence he wants to reopen the 98 hearing because they're saying that he was he was reviewed as somebody else somebody else basically who's been worse in jail and it has worse crimes than him somehow than murdering a teenager after you sexually assaulted um so he says that he's an alcoholic. He's completed the 12-step program.

He doesn't deny or minimize his crimes. He says that he's ready to be a part of society. And they go, I don't fucking think so. Not yet. We don't like you. Take a hike. And then I've lost him. I don't know where he is.

I can't find an obituary. I can't find him in jail. I can't find an obituary. I can't find him in jail. I can't find anything. I can't find an article saying he was released because they have. It's very well documented. All of his hearings and all this shit. If he was released, I would assume somebody would go, hey, this monster's out there. Be careful.

Yeah. You know, whatever age he is. Who cares? He's now, right? He's 80. He'd be 80. So he might be dead. And if he's 80, he's going to be it's going to be harder for him to assault and attack and obviously that sort of thing.

But still, he's a dangerous old pervert. So if he's out there, be careful. In your 80s, you can make somebody much more vulnerable, though. Oh, yeah. Because they're guards down. They're guards down. That's exactly right. You're not pulling up with your trunk tied closed.

You're a feeble, oh, can you help me? And then next thing you know, you're diddling're diddling oh boy so that is that case there east amwell township new jersey and like i said that is just a bonus thank you for being our people bonus reminder that you're never safe and you're never this to remind you in this holiday season when you're home uh cozy with your family you're not safe your children aren't safe none of you are safe so that's our message of holiday cheer that's what this show is all about and uh if you like the show please review on itunes apple podcast the purple icon get on there give us five stars it really does help a lot head over to shut up and give me murder.com right now check out our

live show virtual live show january 29th anywhere in the world january the 29th and it'll be available for three days after that we're doing a real show just like in a theater except just from a studio minus a theater minus a theater but we're going to pretend like you're all in a theater and we're in a theater we got the mics and everything for the aesthetics the visuals are going to look great you're going to see the pictures bigger i wish i had the idea to get cutouts people could buy cutouts and put them in the fucking studio yeah that would have been amazing that would have been great too late though uh head over to uh shut up and give me murder.com for those tickets also patreon patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you go

for all your bonus stuff extra bonus stuff this week the christmas murders all throughout history and small town murder a lot of fun that is they're crazy and then the of course much beloved personal ads from newspapers throughout time and some sales thrown in there as well get all that at patreon.com slash crime and sports also jimmy will mispronounce your name and you'll be a producer but you can also be a producer at paypal using our email address crimeinsportsatgmail.com. Thank you, everybody. Honestly, we'll just end it with that, and shout-outs are on the regular show.

Thanks for everything you've done for us all year, really, and hope everybody's enjoying the holidays with their families, and just thank you guys so, so much. We really appreciate it. You've been amazing in the crow's nest uh navigating these icebergs thank you so much that titanic sails on uh it's been great it has thank you see you later everybody Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity.

The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+.

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