SmartLess - "Michael Stipe"

Episode Date: November 13, 2023

It’s a Shiny-Happy-Podcast with R.E.M.’s Michael Stipe on the mic. Default veganism, relocation by earthquake, the confidence of youth, and walking like a human-person. We’re losing our religion together, on an all-new SmartLess.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey guys, my name's Sean. I like long walks on the beach. I'm a cancer. I like sweets, cake, cookies, ice cream. I have a littlearks. Smarks. Smarks. Smarks. Smarks. Smarks. Smarks. Smarks. Smarks.

Smarks. Smarks. Smarks. Will, when we were chatting yesterday, you were on your walk. Yeah. And Jason, I know, I have no if you've ever called Will on his walk, but it's all uphill. Yeah. And it's... So, what's going on? What are you doing tonight?

That whole time. I'm sorry. And I was like, just calm it when you're done. No, but it's a great way what ends up happening is, it's a great way for me to stay out of my head because it is a tough walk. And then all of a sudden, I'm like, I don't want to let him halfway down.

What do you guys talk about? What was, what's on the phone yesterday? Yeah. What we were doing, I was doing that night. We were talking about what he's doing that night, and about, I was asking him if he was going on that trip that everybody's going on next week to see that thing in that place. All right. You mean tomorrow?

No, is it tomorrow? Oh, it's Friday. Yeah, sorry, tomorrow, that you guys are all doing. You can say what it is, why not? Yeah, it's Friday. Yeah, sorry. Tomorrow that you guys are all doing. You can say what it is. Why not? Yeah, it's the GoCe YouTube and the new sphere thing. And you guys are all going. Sean's not. Are you Sean? Not going. J.B. Sean's not going.

And then I was like feeling guilt about it a little bit because I don't know. And... Well, you just got back from London, you know? You just got back. You got a bunch more sleeves to cut off your Liverpool t-shirts. You're going to be busy this weekend. This is an old t-shirt, is it?

Yeah. Oh, it is. Does Justin know that it's missing yet? Or I only do it when I'm doing when I'm on like my walk or working out. Do what? Cut sleeves. Wear a sleeveless. Yeah, just because I get so hot.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, the sun is so amazed by how much you're physically on your biceps. Yeah, just because I get so hot. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, all of a sudden, you're so amazed by how much, basically, on your biceps. Yeah, it gets hot guns. Hot guns. Hot. Hot. I'm going to make a t-shirt for both of those hot guns. I knew guns. I knew what. Can I just tell you something? I was about to, I was walking down the stairs, come down to set up through this record. And all of a sudden, it goes, send it goes, what are you doing?

And I go, well, I'm going from my walk. She goes, but are you doing smartness? I go, yeah. And then she goes, and I was like, fuck, yeah, you're right. I might take some heat. But then I was like, I'm already, I'm already committed. So fuck it. And I'm good for the opening.

I'm getting bigger. Vegas. Oh, see, you would be great at Vegas. Can I wear this to Vegas, do you think? I'm very excited to see the whole sphere. I know it's going to be cool. I wasn't asked to go, but I would love to go. Well, you've got six weeks. They're doing a six-week residence. Oh, sure. Yeah, I'll go.

Sean, maybe you and me and Scott and I will go. We'll go for like, we'll zip in and out. Yeah, fine. Just the day. Just the day. Well, we have to go. It's that night. Oh, well, we'll come back tonight.

I know you two are doing mat nays. Do I go one of you guys like like do you guys? Do you guys like the tables? Are you gamblers? I love it. I live for it. Really? I like Sean likes the gamble. What's your game? Rulette and Blackjack. His game is losing money. Do you remember JB when we did the card game with Coli gas and those guys back in the day and Jack black and those guys and The first time Sean came to the game. We we've been doing it for like a month or two and then Sean comes Just was like I said going I'm all in I'm all in and this is like 20 years ago And he won like $1,500 and then it's like, oh my God, it goes, oh my God, it's late. I got to go and everybody's like, you're not fucking going.

Do you have to win and then walk? I never came back. I know. He tried. Roulette, boy, that's um, I like roulette too. Do you? It's kind of, I thought only people like take cruises, uh, play roulette. Who? Perhaps it's, it perhaps is great. People that take cruises play roulettelette. Who? Perhaps it's great. People that take cruises, play roulette and slot machines, right?

I hate losing money though. I don't really like to gamble that much. Because the roulette, yeah, I love it. I tell you what's not a gamble. Uh-oh, nice, nice segue. Nice segue. I'll just hear you say it again. I tell you what's not a gamble is our guest today.

I am profoundly excited about our guest. I have been a massive, massive fan of this person's work for a long, long, long time. In fact, almost as long as I can remember, not quite, but almost as. This is a, this is the true artist, in my view. Somebody who is, I think, not only created so much incredible music over the years, but also has inspired so much incredible music. And I know that from reading from what other people say about him. And what he has done, you know, people sort of try to at first were saying that they were

the first kind of really great American post-punk band. I like to think that they are the first really great and probably without embarrassing them, really first great sort of indie band in a way. This is somebody who is just in his own right, a great artist, a visual artist, a photographer, a filmmaker, but also an incredible songwriter, singer, band member, just all around great American icon. You guys, it's none other than REM's Michael Steip. No, my God. I was just thinking about him the other day.

No way. Michael, reveal yourself. There he is. Hey, guys. Oh, my God. Michael Steip. So weird. I was just thinking, I think yesterday of the day before, like, we gotta try to get Michael Steip on this show. No shit. I swear to God.

Oh my God. I'm a huge fan. Wow. Good morning. Well right back, I'm a huge fan of each of you guys as well. So I'm really happy to be here. So great to meet you. Well, thank you, Fred. I know.

Good one. I know. Real good one. I've been, I've been, I often listen to a lot of your music, Michael, from over the years. And of course, in the last few days and anticipation of meeting you, I've been listening to a lot and really introducing my teenage sons to sit like this morning waiting for the bus, in fact.

And we were listening to, we were listening to fall. You should buy a car, Will. I know, it's not high. It is true, but I like the bus. Okay. And I just, you know, it, I started going down memory lane for you, and I can't imagine what that's like for you as people start to talk to you about the sort of,

you know, the entire catalog of music that you've created over the years. Do you, and I've asked people this before, do you feel, I don't know, do you feel the weight of this breadth of work that you've created? Is that something that occurs to you? Do you understand it? Can you appreciate it without, you know, as much as you're comfortable talking about

that kind of thing? Yeah, I mean, I always love it when people walk up to me and say, you know, this or that song really meant something to me at this point in my life. And thank you for being there. And, you know,, it's all it's really always about the music. And but I feel like it's my job, you know, moving forward in time to to be graceful about that when it when it happens. Sometimes people also just don't like me. And that's okay to. I don't know anybody. We get we have.

I live in New York. So I get you know, it's not like LA. It's like you people tell you what they think and sometimes they yell it from across the street. But, and so you get that too. But let's start at the top. I like the sleeveless look, Will, thank you for having me on. I got the memo, so I were read, but I didn't take the sleeves off, so I'm sorry for that. It's not too late. Yeah, it's not too late.

And I'll see you guys in Las Vegas because I got an invitation to come. Oh, that's great. Are you going? Oh, I can't wait. Well, I have to figure out exactly when. So maybe we can, maybe we can, you guys can coordinate that after we're picking up. I'll pick you up and that wills bus.

We'll. I am coming to, I'm coming to the West Coast soon, which is, I'm kind of allergic to Los Angeles. So it's going to be, you know, we can hold your hand at a nice dinner. Yeah, come and have dinner with us, man. I'm a transplant. I lived in New York for over 20 years. I've really only been here full time

for 10 years, I guess, almost. So I get it. And it is, it's always an adjustment. I spent years like living in New York and then working out here. Remember, JB, when we were doing our thing and I was like every weekend, I would go home. Yeah.

I gotta get back to New York. Oh, so I get- When we were doing our thing, isn't that sweet? You can't, but Willie, you couldn't imagine living in New York full-time again right now, could you? You know, I don't know. I ended up, I don't know if I say falling in love with L.A. But I ended up being like, okay, and once I had kids,

it kind of changed my perspective. But then, I spent a fair bit of time back there, especially in the summer. And I don't know, I could. Michael, could you ever imagine living out in L.A. full time? I did live there for a couple of years in the early 90s. That was really fun. And then the earthquake came, and my face got condemned and flattened.

No way and so I moved into Hollywood and I lived actually, I lived out of the Shatom Vermont for a couple of years as my second home. Second different earthquake. Yeah, that's a different all-together situation. But it was really fun and it was really like it was still really shabby and cool and reality TV hadn't happened yet. So things were a little more tolerable. Michael pardon my ignorance.

I know nothing. I live in a hole. I'm under a rock. I was a singer in a band called R.I.M. for 32. That's how people most know me as to my voice. Yes. I've also worked on other things. But with the well-deserved compliments

that Will was giving you, so in reference to that incredible body of work and creativity and forward thinking and pushing, teaching us all had to enjoy stuff that's a little bit more challenging. Where are you pointing that today? What are you excited about pointing that incredible talent at today? My own work? Yeah.

Well, it's multi-directional. Right now, as we sit here talking, I'm putting together a show of artwork that's going to debut in December and Milan at the ICA Milan, which is for me really super exciting because it's the first institution show that I've ever done, and the largest show I've done in Europe. So that's super exciting. It's a painter. No, good Lord.

I'm the worst painter on Earth. I mean, really, really bad. I established that when I was 20 years old in art school at the University of Georgia. I tried philosophy that was really, I'm interesting to me, I couldn't wrap my head around those kind of concepts. I tried English lit, I loved it,

but I was really a terrible student. And so then I finally wound up at the art school, which is where I belonged, because that's where all the really cool kids were. And that's where you got laid. And that's where you sat around and drank espresso and figured out what the world should look like instead of what it did look like in the team. And, um, yeah, so no, I'm a terrible painter.

I'm a terrible painter. Yes, sculpture, it's sculpture pieces. I'm working in concrete and plastic and plaster. Oh, wow. And then, um, and then a lot of photographs because I take a ton of pictures and I kind of, I've never kept a journal or a diary, but I have consistently taken photographs my entire life to kind of remember, like, wow, I met that guy there or we had that launcher dinner. And this is when I visited Lithuania

and that's what it looks like. And I love brutalism and whatever it goes on and on. But that's funny you say that you never come to diary and yet you did in a sense that you pointed out you have this sort of years of photographs that you've taken over time that kind of document you're moving through the world. And also, you have all these great songs that are also representative. I think, probably, again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, representative of where you're at at various points in your life and how you viewed

things potentially. Yeah, I mean, it's certainly details of my political activism and my kind of coming out of, like, you know, a kind of political, like, activist dark place into, like, seeing the light and seeing, like, who we were as Americans to the rest of the world and then trying to respond to that or react to that. But I've never been an autobiographic writer. I mean, I had this conversation with all people,

recently, Patty Smith, and we're talking about writers who are essentially autobiographic writers, and then those who are not. And I tend to fictionalize like everything that goes into the words that I write for songs. So as a lyricist, there's maybe like, I'm not kidding, like eight songs in the whole canon of REM and other stuff that I've done outside of that, that actually are very, very, very personal to me. The rest of it is a lot of imagination. Oh, wow. And Patty Smith was a, if I'm right, not mistaken, was a big influence on you early on, even

before you started REM. Is that right? Like, you were just like really obsessed with her and would just, and I don't know if obsessed is the right thing. But. No, obsessed is not a bad word. I mean, I just, I bought and listened to horses the day it came out. I was 15 years old. And I decided then and there that that's what I was going to do.

And it was, you know, I was 15. It was really a naive choice. But I, you know, it manifested four years later. I was still a teenager when I started Aureum. And we went on from there. I was still a teenager when I started R.E.M. and we went on from there. I was insanely ambitious. And I knew what I didn't want to do, which was hold down a regular job.

Right. And are you, we get that. But yeah, sorry, can I just say just about that time, really quickly, Michael, you touched on it before, you know, starting R.E.M. when you were a teenager and you read the University of Georgia, and you met Peter Buck and Mike Mills and Bill Berry there in Athens.

And you guys created REM and your first single, I think, was Radio Free Europe that came out a couple years before your first actual record. Right. You know, it's funny, I listen to, and it's not hard to find just that original recording of Radio Free Europe. And what really astounds me, what I love about it is,

from the moment you guys start, it immediately, Mike Mills bass, Bill Berry's drums, Peter Buck's guitar, and your vocals feel like you guys are shot out of a cannon. This is your introduction to the world. And there's something really fantastic and youthful and exuberant about that sound that I really, the more I read about you guys and where you came

and how you formed the band. And then you re-listen to that song. You guys were, there was so much in those first 30 seconds of that song, man. Thank you. Before the singer starts that song, man. Thank you. Before the singer starts. No, no.

It was a combination of like, you know, like, it was really just abject fear. And then, and then again, like this have absurd, like this is what we're doing. Let's do it. But it's the confidence of youth, too, right? I mean, it's exactly. Exactly.

I mean, there aren't words to that song. I was just making sounds that felt emotional and that carries over to the whole first album. You know, I really was just singing, feeling. I wasn't singing words or narratives until really the second or third record. Yeah, they talk about them. And was that life's rich pageant that you first felt that turning point or trying to think which record it was? That was the fourth album. That was in 1986, I think.

And then the one before that is Fables of the Reconstruction or Reconstruction of the Fables. And that's where I was writing. I started fictionalizing the lives of people around me to try to pull myself out of. You know, I realized that my voice was quite powerful and meant a lot to people, but I also, I wasn't really singing about anything,

so I figured I needed this thing about something. So I did the most obvious thing, which is look around and like, oh, that guy's interesting. How can I tell his story? And then I would exaggerate everything to create some moment of epiphany for the chorus or to make, in the words of Peter Buck,

never let the truth get in the way of a good story. So as Alero says, I was able to do that. As a storyteller, he's much better than I am. But you wrote one of the great lyrics, I think, in Fall on Me, which is a feather hits the ground before the weight can leave the air. And I told that to my son, my almost 15 year old today, and he literally went, wow.

It really hit him. It's one of the great lyrics stuff that I've always just adored. I don't know, there's something about, there's something so magical about that idea to me. Can I pop your bubble, Will? Oh, fuck. No, it's, it's, it was, it had to do with gravity and,

and mass, and it was, it was an actual experiment. I think they dropped a pound of feathers and a pound of, what was it, iron, or what is it in the lyric, I don't remember, but something heavy and then something not heavy. But they dropped an equal amount off of the Tower of Pisa, I believe, and to see if they would land at the same time. Oh, shit.

Well, that's where that lyric comes from. I don't think that actually blows your mind. It did blow my mind. There's something about, I don't know, but even just as an idea, like of using it in a song for me, I find it very poetic and very kind of, I don't know, romantic or something. There's something... He's a very easy label.

He's a label, Michael. That's a... I'm a manchite date. Yeah, if you want romance, you're barking up the right tree. Well, I'm a little bit sentimental and I'm a little bit... Yeah. We'll be right back.

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day. Just go to this exclusive web address right now to try Zippercruder 4 free. Zippercruder.com slash smartless. Again, that's zippercruder.com slash SMA RT LES S Zippercruder, the smartest way to hire. and now back to the show. Michael, is there any draw for you to continue communicating and being creative in the musical space? Any more? Or are you finding all of the sort of the itches

being scratched in other places? No, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. creative in the musical space anymore? Or are you finding all of the sort of the itches being scratched in other places?

I can't believe I'm talking to three of you guys. I'm just gonna start there because I'm such a big fan of each of you. This is really such an honor to be on the show, but I have 75 things I wanna tell you as a fan as soon as you answer this question. Okay, all right. Actually, thank you for asking.

I started with the show and Milan. That's happening. Yeah. That opens in December itself for three months. I'm really excited about it. And I'm absolutely fucking terrified. And so I know that I'm doing something right. I'm gonna do a big Google search as soon as we're done

with this and take a look at all this stuff. I can't. You're not gonna find much, but I can now. I can, it'll, I think I know when you guys are broadcasting this, so I can tell you the name of it. The title is, wait for it, I have lost, and I have been lost, but for now I'm flying high. That's the title of the show.

That's great. That's great. I love it. I'm also working on a solo album, and it's a bit embarrassing because I started this when I was 19, and I'm now, you know, Methuselah. I've become father time as time marched on. But I'm doing my first solo record,

and it's about half done. Can I ask you what sort of world that is in as far as instrumentation goes and band size and all that? Not what you might expect. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love electronic music and ambient music. Opened with a sitar. It does not.

That would be great, though. God, that's a good idea. I knew you'reed with a sitar. It does not. That would be great though. God, that's a good idea. I knew you're going to say more electronic. I knew it. Sorry, keep going. Really? Yeah.

I mean, I really, you know, some of the stuff that we do. These are the shades. These are actual glasses that I need. I guess. We all do. Thank you. I should be wearing it. So more electronic, huh?

Because you, I mean, REM I mean, REM was so instrumental. Yeah, I'm right. I realized really, when I started writing on my own and composing, because I never wrote music, I always responded to what those guys gave me. And I'm speaking to Peter Buck, Mike Mills, and Bill Berry, when he was a part of the band. And so I always just responded to their music. And as a, you know, I hear harmony everywhere. It's actually a little bit of a problem.

And then I would hear harmony and melody, and then I would compose the words to that. But I'd never composed music myself. So I started that only to find out that it's really a lot fucking harder than you think it is. But I'm doing okay. But I knew right away that I couldn't do some airsats version of R&M.

I don't need electric guitar and bass and drums because it's just going to be a pathetic comparison to being a part of, in my opinion, and I'm gonna tune my own horn here. But I was a part of one of the greatest bands and I'm gonna to my own horn here, but I was a part of, you know, one of the greatest bands of all time. And those guys, I know. So I'm looking for a different arena

to place my voice in. Are you gonna do all of it yourself? Like are you doing playing all the keyboard, like all the electronic stuff yourself or you? No, I can't play a single thing. I'm okay on the cube. I start, everything starts with synthesizer, and then

and drums. So it's it's it's pretty beat heavy. I mean about half of the work is is you know basically disco. I can't wait to hear it. Yeah no kidding. It's just I'm super excited about it. Yeah there's some really unexpected things are coming uh lyrically. I'm going into some territory that is actually deeply frightening. But but again if if I'm terrified then I know that I'm going into some territory that is actually deeply frightening. But again, if I'm terrified, then I know that I'm doing something right. And I'm absolutely terrified, so that's good. I think that that's the greatest place to be. I don't know how you guys feel about it. Those moments, you know, you've had those moments where you're doing something

or you're taking a risk or you're at an olem and you're like, God, I'm so fucking scared. And yet, I think this know, you're taking a risk or you're at an olem and you're like, God, I'm so fucking scared. And yet, I think this is where I should be. Because if I'm comfortable, then right on the edge of what you think you can handle is a good spot to be. Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh.

You mentioned Harmony and one of the things that for me was one of the real hallmarks of REM. And I agree with you, one of the great American bands. And anybody wants to challenge me, I'll meet you online. But one of the real hallmarks of REM was the incredible harmonizing you did, especially you and Mike Mills. I challenge anybody to find something that's more,

I don't know, musically pleasing than listening to you and Mike Mills harmonize with each other on songs like Like Follow Me or on Superman, which I didn't realize was a cover. And I saw the video of you guys with the original writer back in 86 from In Illinois where you brought him on. But also one of the great harmonizing, it's just mind blowing, man. Well, that's Mike. That's really, I mean, Mike has a... Mike and though are incredibly musical and... But encyclopedically knowledgeable about music, I'm not. I'm a complete... Like, I really don't know the first thing about music.

I hate to break into you. I hate to break into you. Really good. And so, as uncomfortable as that may be, send me some R&M albums, well. I will. But what would you, what would you, what was that first moment like

when you and Mike and Bill potentially did harmonize? Like how did that come up? Do you remember that? I remember the moment when vocal arrangement became a concept that I was like, oh holy shit, that's a thing. Like I knew about musical arrangement, but we were working in Memphis in 1986.

And we were in a studio that was a kind of mostly country music. But in the other studio was Mavis Staples and her producer Reverend Al Green and And then this guy who I saw all the time at the coffee machine. So finally, I was like are you are you a musician? Are you seeing what do you do? And he said oh, I do vocal arrangement and it hit like it's like this Like seismic blast like took my face off and I was like, fuck, you can arrange vocals. You can arrange vocals. Did I say that right?

Did I mess it up? No, you did. He was the vocal arranger for May the Staples in Reverend Al Green. And I was like, wow. And so then I was like, hey, I have an idea. I have an idea. I have an idea.

Mike would sing most of them. But eventually the band were making fun of me because I was doing all these harmonies that were essentially the Beatles. And I famously or kind of infamously didn't grow up with the Beatles. So I love the monkeys and I love the Archies and I love the banana splits. But I was a kid and I didn't have an older brother or sister who really loved music. And I have an older sister who I love immensely and she's got incredible taste. But at the time, you know, we weren't no one listened to the Beatles in my household.

So anyway, I wound up kind of recreating something that it was always in the background for me. But Mike's the secret sauce there. Mike is true. But you were doing it before you knew what you were doing. I guess it's my point. Well, they knew, he knew. I didn't know.

But I also love your candor, because you know that thing where people go, like a reference like a song or like a film or a book or something, and they go, you end up just go, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. And you're like, no, you don't fucking know. And I love that you're just like, I didn't know the Beatles.

I didn't listen to them in that way. And I think a lot of people have revision as history when they talk about their own story. I don't even know how to spell it or why they were called. I thought it was Sean just found out why the Beatles were called the Beatles. What was that Sean? Spell spelled B-E-A. Yeah.

I thought it was a shock. I didn't know it's like the beat. They're making a beat. Oh, yeah, I think so. I thought it was. That's a funny thing to not know. That's why it is a funny thing to me. We have a shock in hanging out with this guy, Michael.

It's a really funny thing to not know. Yeah. And he thought Kennedy was assassinated in DC. So it's just, it's a fountain. He did, Michael, we went on this tour and we went and we walked, where were you drove by? Like the Washington money, you mean or something, JB? Yeah.

And he said, huh, isn't this just about where Ken as he's looking over both shoulders, Kennedy was assassinating right around here. Oh, Jason goes, no, that was in Dallas. You fucking idiot. Welcome to America. Um, hey, I'll go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. No, no, you coach. No, Sean, it's your turn. Because I know we're all. Yeah. I can't wait to go ahead. Michael, hi, I'm Sean and I'm a huge fan of yours.

You know, when I was in high school, you basically were one of the, you know, we had to Peshmoan on us. Failing out of high school. Just asking. And high school. Yeah, were one of the, you know, we had the Peshmoan on us. Failing out of high school. And high school, yeah, 88 was the first time I heard, oh my God, the album so embarrassed. In 1988. The album that came out in 88. It would be green. Probably.

Green, right, green. I know, in a song every word. And so, anyway, so you along with the Peshmoan and all these, but like Tori Amos in 10,000 maniacs and all these other groups that I absolutely loved. I was like a, I was a music major. So I try to listen to as much music as possible and you were part of my defining, you know, young childhood, young adulthood.

You were a major in the music army. It's, yeah, it's a big deal to meet you and you mean a lot to me. So that said, I have just a couple of things I want to say. That said, I have some notes. Yeah. One is, I sat right next to you with our friend Jimmy Burrows and a play that Woody Harrelson was starting and,

and I sat right next to you. And I don't think you knew who I was or whatever. And you had glitter on your face and I thought these are coolest guys in the world. And I was so nervous, I never said hello. So I'm glad I'm from hello now. And I was so nervous. I never said hello. So I'm glad I'm from the low now. And I was like, Jimmy, I said to Jimmy, I was like, that's fucking Michael's type sitting right next to me.

I was freaking out. But anyway, and then talking about her. Tell me, I always need to know place first. What city was that in New York City on Broadway? New York, what do you hear, Olsen was starring. What was it? I don't remember the name. It was really about years and years ago.

I go into blackout with like weddings, funerals and plays. I have to work on it? I don't remember the name. I was really bad with years and years ago. I go into blackout with like, Wedding's, Finals and play as I have to work on the title. I don't know. I think I was the real. Jason wakes up in a blackout. Yeah. Jason can't remember anything. You can talk about something we did last year and Jason go, I was there. Yeah, I can really.

Yeah. But anyway, so the other thing was harmonies. What Will was saying, you know, I'm something is out of reach that 10,000 maniacs on that you saying backup on That's when I was they came I was on the entertainment committee in college We'd get all the bands. I would try so hard to get REM to come But we got 10,000 maniacs to come and I was practicing piano in the rehearsal room where there's like 10 pianos because that was a piano major Right and Natalie merchant is right across me playing at college. I'm like, oh my god because she was performing that

I actually need a break and I thought I dreamed that Michael's type was gonna come on stage and seeing Harmony to that thing. But my last thing I wanted to say, but you didn't show up. But the last thing I wanted to say was I was dating this guy and losing my religion, you know the chorus, oh god, how does it go? I'm soon nervous now. I think I thought it, yeah. I think it's not a chorus, not a chorus. I think it's not a chorus. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I thought you tried it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, so I was dating this guy, and we were trying to send your harmonies, right? And I think I started trying to try whatever, and he couldn't do it, I stopped dating him. That a little good, yeah. Good move, good move.

Way to go. I was like, what are you talking about? How could you not? It's just a third. It's just third. and he couldn't do it, I stopped dating him. That'll do. Good move. Good move. Way to go. I was like, what are you talking about? How could you not? It's just a third. It's just third. You sound like you had a pretty wired though. Oh, yeah.

I was just having a good time. I thought I had a bad time. Not a shred of bloody shit. Michael, am I right in remembering that you dipped your toe in film producing for a period there in the 90s or early 2000s. 25 years. Yeah, I was a film producer for 25 years. Really? Yeah, I kind of stopped. What did you did you love it and then didn't love it or always hated it or miss it and loved it the whole time? I loved working with I loved working with people in the film industry, with all the creative people, but all the money people drove me up the fucking wall.

And it's just so fraught with compromise, you know, with music and with art and with photography and with all the things that I really kind of express for myself, I'm able to really be as wrong as I want to be and completely uncompromise with film and TV. It's always a compromise. You guys know that much more than I do. And but that said, you know, I worked with some incredible people. I made some incredible lifelong friendships and along with what he, Harold Sin, being one of them,

we're very, very close. He and Laura are like the dearest people to me. And Natalie actually speaking to Natalie. I saw her perform recently in Chateau, New York with a symphony of the place. I'm a play star. She's incredible. But yeah, I did, I produced Beane John Malkovich. Yeah. I'm really proud of that.

That's incredible. I executive produced Velvet Gold Mine with Todd Haynes. And you talked to Todd or to Spike at all in your? I talked to Spike all the time. We used to live across the street from each other. Oh yeah. I love Spike. He's one of the funniest dudes.

Yeah. I met him when he was a teenager with through Jane Pratt. Actually, she was doing a magazine called Sassy. And they had a skateboard, like boy version of Sassy. And Spike was one of the two guys that were a part of that. So he was a kid when I met him. I was also a kid, but anyway. It's such a filmmaker.

Yeah, we kind of grew up together, and he's amazing. And then my best friend, Jim McKay, that's kind of more, the Hollywood at part of my film production was much more truncated than the work that I did out of New York, was much more truncated than the work that I did out of New York, which was more independent film. Did you ever think about maybe scoring a film?

Yeah, actually the band scored a film called Man on the Moon with Milo Shoforman. Oh, right. Oh, yeah. Based on a song that we wrote called Man on the Moon, which was about Andy Kaufman. Yeah. And the comedian, and it kind of brought Andy back into as he had died and had kind of been

forgotten. And this friend of ours brought some VHS tapes to Studio and Seattle and we were there working and I watched the tapes and then there was this piece of music that the band loved but I couldn't I couldn't find it couldn't find it couldn't it. And I went on a long walk the last day that we were in the studio, and I wrote Man on the Moon walking around the blocks of downtown Seattle. And I recorded it that night, and we gave it to the record company the next day, and that was that.

No, no, no. It's crazy, it's crazy. I mean, that really happened. That's super nuts. That's magic. That is crazy. I love hearing those stories when bands, I remember the story of reading

somewhere that Paul Weller talks about writing that entertainment in 10 minutes coming home from the pub and I'm like, you know, one of the jam's great songs and being like, wow, that's amazing. Or like you writing Man on the Moon a song that everybody knows it massive hit that was so like, and that you wrote it walking around and gave it to the record company the next day. and that you wrote it walking around and gave it to the record company the next day. But then someone heard the song, fell in love with Andy Kaufman all over again, wrote a script and it got into Milocious Hands and he's one of my heroes. Yeah, but I felt like he was. And he put together a great cast and did a great, made a great film, I think.

But the band wound up scoring that. Yeah. I want to ask you about Thomas, if you don't mind, and we don't have to, if you don't. But just being in a relationship, I'd say. Oh, yeah. My boyfriend. Yeah, I just, just being in a relationship

with another artist. We'll thought I was going to say with another man. But with another artist. A different. A different. A different man. What does that like? Because you're both photographers.

Obviously, he's very well respected. He's much better than I am. Tell Tracy and me who Thomas is. Thomas is Toma, his, his, his, his French Thomas Dozle. And he's an artist who works mostly in photography. And he's, he's a master portraitist. So he puts me to shame.

And so do you guys, what, what are the, the heated discussions like? Like do you guys get injured about? He'll do it. Yeah. Voices. Voices. There's a story here. Well, I mean, it's an ongoing saga, but both of us love art.

And as I said, he's French. And so he has such a different perspective on art. And everything growing up in France and growing up the way that he did. And so yeah, we really get into it, but it's absolutely supportive, you know. But he has opinions, that's for sure. As do I. I mean, we have the type of relationship where we're able to say really difficult things about everything,

but we're speaking here about work. We're able to say, you know what, that's not, you know, you could do better or try again, try again, or... Do both of you work with film or with digital photography? He works with mostly film for the serious work that he's doing. We're in our first show together, actually not our first show together, but we're in a show together that's opening in Cincinnati

in October. It's a group show about collage. And just this morning before we got on the phone, he sent me the two images that he's putting up there. It's two noods. It's a woman named Rihanna Kubik and a guy named Jesper Jost, both very, very different, both working in art, but they're this incredible. I wish you could see them, but they're these

really, really stunning portraits. So he's a great portraitist along the lines of Peter Huzhar, or Gasha, I can't even think of who else, maybe Richard Abadon. And I, as a, I'm more of, I'm more of like a snapshot guy. Like, I snap pictures as a diary, and sometimes I'll see something that catches my eye. I see things differently than regular people, and so I'm able to kind of present a different perspective. But, but what he does is profoundly really thoughtful. We'll be right back.

profoundly really thoughtful. We'll be right back. Smarlers is sponsored by BetterHelp. It's the end of the year. It's all the seasons are happening. And guess what else is happening? Weather changes. And it gets a little gloomy outside. It gets overcast.

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when you use promo code SmartLess at liquid-IV.com. All right, back to the show. I want to say two things. One of the things I like that you kind of talked about was in kind of getting into things and whether it's about work or in your personal relationship. I've just recently in the last week been talking with a friend of mine about this concept, this idea that when a relationship, if you will, between two people is strong enough that it can sustain each other, being able to feel free to do what they need to do and express themselves in a way that's okay. And when it can support that, there's something really magical about that.

When we can be comfortable enough to have differing opinions on things, because I think so often, I don't know, I don't know about you guys, but I've been in places before, in relationships where it wasn't strong enough, and so that when you do kind of strike out and have a differing opinion, it kind of falls apart. There's something really great about when it is strong.

In that way. Well, luckily politically, we're and that makes that makes dinner conversation much easier. We've been together a quarter of a century so we've worked out the King. I mean there's not a place where I mean I think with any you guys know this. I mean you've been a you know I'm a bit further down the Mathusel trail than you are, but by about 10 years, I think. But, but, um, you know, you, you, you, you, communication is everything. And if you can't, if you can't, if you don't have that, then you're just kind of screwed, you know.

Yeah. Okay. Wait. Here, Michael, you like times and dates. I ran, I didn't run into you. I saw you once. It was a great, I was 24 and I was on 7th Avenue. None of it exists anymore, but I was on 7th Avenue in 20. I lived between 7th and 8th on 21st Street in Chelsea for years. Okay. And I saw you at this weird rush, and I'm like, what the fuck is Michael's type doing there?

And you were having coffee outside at this really, and anyway, it was a great sighting. And I remember just walking by, trying to be cool and going around the corner and saying to my friend, like, yeah, yeah. On 21st, I can't picture. You were on 7th Avenue. It was 1994.

On 7th, okay. There's no way you remember it. But it was like for me, a great like, you know, just trying to, you know, those like, trying to walk cool and be like, is my walk look stupid? Am I walk? How do you walk?

How do some walk do something walk normally? Just walk normally. Walk like a human person. Oh, that's weird. Oh, that's weird. Wait, so Michael, I have a question. How old were you when Murmer came out? 22, I think, or 21, 22.

22, which means you started writing. Like you said, you're 23. Wait, I think, yeah, no. I was born January 4th, 1960. So I'm every decade, I'm like four days behind. So I'm now 63. It's really hard to remember. So you were, I was 13, so you're 23.

I think it came out in, I think, yeah, 23. 23, yeah. Yeah, so you're 23. And meaning, like you said, you started writing in high school and when you were a teenager. And so my question is because I'm always fascinated by people like you who, how did you get in touch with your emotional side at such a young age such that you could feel fearless

about expressing yourself through music? Like most teenagers have angst in our naturally emotional anyway, but to feel safe enough to write them down and then sing is a whole other level. How did you achieve that? Wow, that's such a good question. Maybe unanswerable. I mean, well, I love what you said earlier, Will, about radio for Europe, because it was

you know, it was fear. I mean, there was everything was an ambition and audacity. There was, it was all the A words. I mean, there was everything was an ambition and audacity. There was, there was, it was, it was all the A words, except for F, which is the fear word. But we grew up in public, you know, we didn't know what we were doing. Peter couldn't play guitar. I didn't know.

I didn't, it didn't occur to me that to be the singer in a band I had to write words and then sing them. Like, I mean, I was like, yeah, this is great. But it's, it's a lot of work. The Ramones emerged intact. They were like this remarkable thing that just the second you saw them or heard them, they had a sound, they had a look, they had names, they had an attitude, they had the, they had all the photography down, they were locked from the first moment we ever saw them. I am grew up in public and so it took me a couple of...

I mean, people don't believe this, but I repeat it over and over again. We were working on our second album before I realized that the bass guitar was the one that made the low sounds. I didn't know the difference between a bass and a guitar. The bass has four strings on it, so that's what I wanted to know. That's how I knew that was the base. It had four strings. But you knew you could sing. No, I didn't.

I only figured out, and like, what was the second to last record that we made? How did you find your way into a band? Well, how did you start the band? It was, is my right was Peter Bach? One of you was working at a record store? Was it Peter was? Yeah.

He was working at record store and used to come in and buy Patty Smith records or something. You're never gonna believe this, but at that record, that record store is still there. It's in Athens, Georgia. And you'll never believe who's going to be there in early November. Who's that?

Mickey Dolan's from the monkey. Wow. No way. Has covered four REM songs and the last one on an EP. And they are fucking fantastic. And he covered one of the songs and we lost them on an EP. And they are fucking fantastic. And he covered one of the songs that we only wrote because it's called Shining Happy People. It's very fruity.

I love that one. B-52's Kate. I love that song. With Kate Pearson, yeah. I love Kate. But you know, that was us working out our like, like, you know, like Super Pop kind of, I love it.

Bubble gum, kind of bubble gum music. It's because of it. Was that on green? Oh, God, you're asking the wrong person. I know. It was on one of those records around that. If we could find somebody in the band. I love how much you don't know your own.

He has what we call turn the page. It's fucking rad. I think it's so rad. And you know what else is rad? Is that you, you know, you mentioned the runs, how to look and everything. You guys, you, clear, had no runs, how to look and everything. You guys, you had no look, almost by choice.

It seemed very like, there's no artifice, no nothing. We're gonna plug these instruments in and we're just gonna sing and play music that sounds good and it's challenging, but it's not alienating. It's, especially, by the way,

JB, think about this, especially in a time, Michael, you can attest to this, where MTV was exploding and a lot of music was about how your video played. It wasn't necessarily about your music. And you guys were all about the music. To me, music was, music was like one of the one places that you could go and not have someone tell you what to think about and not tell someone, Like when I hear music, this is also, I get a lot of stick for this, but it's really what happens. When I hear good music, not bad music. When I hear good music, I see a landscape and I see a vista. And for me, it's a very visual thing. And when I write, I'm like putting people in that landscape.

It's like, it makes that makes sense to me. I see when I hear. So for MTV to come along, and suddenly you're looking at like, whoever, you know, Chrissy Hind and the pretenders version of what you're supposed to see when you hear this song, it really robbed me of something super important to as a music fan.

So what changed your mind? Washington, Ado Connor, it was when I saw nothing compares to you that I started lip-syncing. And the first video that I lip-synced to, lip-synced to, is losing my religion, which was the biggest hit that we had ever had. It was the song of the summer of whatever year that was. And I'm so proud of that song, and I love the song to this day,

but it was watching her performance that I realized, like, okay, this is complete artifice, but we all know that it's artifice, and you can actually be moved emotionally by watching this person perform the song, even if she's up syncing. Who are your bands? I mean, who were, you mentioned the monkeys, et cetera,

but like when you were, other than Patty Smith, who also mentioned when you were 18 or when you were 25, who are the bands that you still, like I have like a sort of like rotating list of like 10 bands that I always go back to of which REM is one, that's always on my playlist. Oh, and it's always, it's you guys, and it's the Smiths and it's pavement,

and it's like that's where I guys and it's the Smiths and it's pavement. And it's like, that's where I kind of live. You have good taste. Yeah. I'm well thank you. I mean, I don't know. I just like music. Not in the shirts. I've never. Yeah. Like when you were bopping around the Grammys and the MTV of awards and all that stuff, who, which bands at that time were you kind of really excited to be bumping shoulders with? I'll tell you the truth. I was really excited to be bumping shoulders with? I'll tell you the truth, I was really excited to be meeting the actors.

I'm really, yeah, I'm a real fanboy in that regard. So like I scared the life out of Dennis Hopper, I went, and I didn't mean to, I was just so excited and so jacked on adrenaline and here there he was. And I was like, oh, you're amazing. And I scared, I came up behind him, you know, and he completely, like he looked at me with that look of like Frank, you wow, you're amazing. And I scared, I came up behind him. And he completely looked at me with that look of Frank.

You know, it was so scary. I was like, ah, I scared it. I scared it to his hopper. Yeah, he was a prosecutor. Frank from Blue Velvet. Yeah, he called me a prosecutor. He called me a prosecutor. I loved Elton John as a, as like,

I was like a protozoa. You know, I, so, like, when I was like a protozoa, you know, um, I was maybe 13 when, um, Bidney and the Jets came out and that song to me, I was like, what the actual fuck is going on? What is it? Like, I couldn't, I knew even then, like, I didn't know the first thing about pop music or radio music or nothing, but I was like, this is something I've never heard before. And the same thing happened when I heard Patty Smith.

And then Patty, you know, uh, I knew about the CBGBC in New York in the mid 70s, and all the bands that were playing there. So when each of them released a record, I was the first guy in line to buy it. So television, the Ramones, the talking heads, blondie, and then the dead boys, and all these other people sort of coming X from Los Angeles

because that we won't talk about. And I'm kidding. I don't despise LA. I just don't know who I am there. It's a real problem. We're gonna help you find yourself here. You're gonna come out here soon. I'm free on the ninth.

So let's have to. We're gonna have Dennis. And this is, we're gonna change the way that you look at Los Angeles. First, you're about to meet the most dynamic people you've ever met. And they're all here on your screen. And they're all here on your screen.

No. It's gonna be incredible for you, to meet us in person. It's gonna be so incredible, my God. What am I? To watch how little Jason eats and how much Sean eats, we'll blow you away, just cancel each other out.

And we're both the same weight. I don't know how it works. It's true. What do you do? Because we always, what is the thing that you do that is, I don't know, the thing that you do. We'll be surprising to us. That's not why.

That's not why. Yeah, yeah. To me, you are the embodiment of sophistication. What is the opposite of that? What? You're looking at it, buddy. Yeah. What are you talking to? I'm the least sophisticated person you know.

You've ever met. But you're creating a lot of art. You've created art in so many different mediums now. And so for guys like us, I'm in awe of how you do that, and it's really inspirational, to be honest, hearing. This is not false humility, I really mean, I'm really... No, yeah, of course.

It means so much to me. But I'm also saying it because... So what is the thing, like, as Jason said, that we'd be surprised to know that you do... That you... That you simple-ten might do, you know? I became a really good cook through COVID. I think we all did.

I didn't bake bread. Good for you. I play solitaire a lot. Solitaire, there you go. There you go. There it is. But what about cooking? What's your go to?

I'm vegan default. So most of what I make is vegan. But then I'll see a piece of turkey bacon and just shove it in my face. I'm not proud of that, but it does happen. I'll shove that in my face. Michael, I do want to ask you just really quickly, not because I just want a quick answer, but just because we haven't gotten to it yet, I don't want to take it any more of your time. But you, one of the great things that you're also known for throughout all this time, and you've used your music to advance a lot of causes and things that you believe in, and your activism is, start it was just such an early part of your trajectory as a person through the world.

And has that continued? Imagine that's continued. And where is it taking you now? What are the things that your passion about in your activism? I try to encourage and support younger generations and the work that they're doing. I thought that my generation, which was, I'm really just,

I think I'm about 10 years older than each of you. Yeah, you're exactly 10 years older. I really thought that my generation was going to be, you know, I took a course when I was in seventh grade, I believe. I remember the teacher was Miss Enoch, E-N-O-C-H. And the entire year's course was about environmental science. And it was about how, it was about pollutant and energy sources and how my generation was going to be the one to lift us out of this darkness and to move forward into this progressive future where, you know, we're not dependent on on on on oil or gasoline and and the air is clean and the oceans are, you know, the plastic situation that we have now never existed in whatever it was, 1971. And I really believe that. I mean, I'm that naive.

But moving forward, there is that energy that youth has and audacity to actually pick something up and place it somewhere else. We find ourselves faced with much more than environmental disasters right at the top of the list, but there are so many things as Americans that we have, you know, I just think we're like, we have really shitty karma as a country. And that has to be addressed in some way. And we're seeing that happen in real life right now. I'm very concerned for

the future, but that said, I'm an incredible optimist. And so yeah, there's, I mean, I don't know what, it's quite scatter shot, but I've been in the band and continue to be actually as a non, we're no longer together for about 11 years, but we continue to be a business, and we support and encourage as much progressive activism as we can. Think about it, man. I mean, we have, if there's one thing I want to say to this younger

new generation is, the only place you can start is a feather hits the ground before it's weight can leave the air. And when you can fucking understand that, we can solve fucking everything. Michael's type, we have absolutely monopolized your way too much of your time. Yeah, I think for out of time. Oh, very nice. Very nice. That's why I'm here. What an absolute honor and thrill to meet you.

Huge honor. Again, just been such a fan of yours for so long, so much of your music. Right back. Played through various stages of my life. I can think of them vividly and how much you are. You are. You and your voice and your songs are part of my soul. Same here.

Well, you guys kept me going along with Team America. I think you guys kept me going on the tour of us for tour after tour with my former band. So the gratitude is returned. Thank you very much. And thank you. I'm really pleased to have been here today. Yeah. gratitude is returned. Thank you very much. And thank you. I'm really pleased to have been here today. Yeah. Thank you very much. Thank you, Michael. We're going to see you for dinner. I'll see you for dinner. Yep. Yeah. Done. We're coming. All right. We're coming to get you. Thank you, Michael. All the best. Enjoy your day. Bye, bye.

Bye. Well done, Willie. Thanks. That's so weird. I truly was. I was listening to an R&M song in the car yesterday of the day before and I was like, oh, perfect guest. Yeah, perfect guest. I just bought like three of his albums because I, just the other day on digital because I never had them. I've only had them vinyl. Oh, yeah, I, they are one of those bands for me, R&M, where I have owned them on vinyl and on cassette and on CD and on digital.

I've owned them in so many, every available format, because you want to keep, you know, listening to their music wherever you are, I just... Yeah, he's, I miss his brain, his creativity, you know, is the subversive sort of take on things through music and sound and lyric. Those are the kind of people that we need who being our pop stars. I mean, I guess your pop music is so big and vibrant right now and God bless them, but I feel like we're missing a little bit of a counterbalance there or maybe I just need to look at them.

No, I think you're right. I think that we need rock stars and musicians who are creating music that's, you know, that's so important who also have something to say who are, you know, that have some depth to it and have some meaning. And it's like all hands on deck right now to try to trigger a better thought. Yeah. Sean, you've yet any thoughts triggered you? He's just working on buys over there. He's probably not. I love him.

I'm with by. He is. Read. Re-submit. No, I am. Hey, that was that. I would like all the all the music people you both bring on. It's so cool. Like it's. No, I, um, he that was that I like all the all the music people you both bring on. It's so cool.

Like it's no, I don't have. He's going. He's going. I do. I think like I'm so surprised. You know, I fucking fell into my chair when the Peshmoe came on. I fell out of my chair when, uh, when Michael Stype just came out and all these people come on and well, I'm falling out of my chair with it.

It's it really is. I'm sitting there watching. I was like like I can't believe I'm talking. I know the podcast is such a gift. I know officially for the three of us. Listener, it's all your fault. Thank you so much for giving us an opportunity to sit here. And hopefully we're asking some of the questions that you would ask if you were trapped in an elevator with one of your heroes too, like we are for an hour each day. It's just such a gift that we could talk to these folks. I can tell we're for hours and forgive us sometimes because I know that people are like, oh, you know, you didn't, you guys didn't let them finish or you were fans as well.

So we trip over ourselves. I know that I do. Sometimes I'm not as, we fight for the next question. Yeah, because I'm like, I just, we only have him for an hour and I just wanna tell him how great I think he is. And stuff and people are like, oh God, how annoying.

I know that's how I, that's how I, I gotta tell him all this time. I ran into you. I sing the song. The blah blah blah blah. And this song means, I could go on and on about it. And we could go on and on with him,

but because it's always so sad to say, oh, you're good. Bye. Bye. Well, let's harmonize like how the audio would, good. Bye. Bye.

Hey, we did it. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smartless is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Rob Armjurf, Bennett Barbaco, and Michael Grandterry. [♪ INTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Smart, blessed! Our next episode will be out in a week wherever you listen to podcasts, or you can listen to it right now, early on Amazon Music,

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You know what my biggest memory from that tour is? It was your birthday. Yes, and you brought me to Shoday Life Size Hardware Cutout. This is Class of 88, the story of a year that changed hip hop. Listen to Class of 88 wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge the entire series right now on the Amazon Music App or Audible. right now on the Amazon Music app for Audible.