SmartLess - "Rachel Maddow"

Episode Date: October 23, 2023

Grab your CPAP… we’re state-side for a quinceañera with Rachel Maddow. Who’s using the haircut today? Cameos from Alan Dershowitz and Insane Clown Posse? On this week’s fresh ep: Rachel M. helps us understand what’s going on.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Here we go. Ready? Three, two, one. Here we go. One and three. One, two and one. We're going live before we're going to go in seven, eight. Let it go. I'm going to the west coast into three. And five.

And four. Three. You saw it here first. World premiere. And four. And three. And three. Listen to me, I have to apologize for my coldness. Hey, did we do all the 3-2-1s? Yeah. Welcome to Smarlis!

Smarlis! Smarlis! Smarlis! Blast! Oh my God, I'm so nervous. Okay, do we just go or do we practice once or... No, we're just gonna do it. We're just gonna do it. Okay, okay. Ready?

Hey, smartless listeners, this episode is brought to you in part by our friends at Verizon. If you're wishing for the new iPhone 15 Pro with Titanium, you don't need to find a genie in a bottle or I don't know, steal an unsuspecting kid's birthday wish. I get it, Sean, I get what you're doing there. If Verizon is making it easy to get Apple's latest and greatest with an amazing trade-in offer, even if your current iPhone has seen better days,

me, my phone is pristine, but you know, some of us just aren't as careful. No judgment here, though. Shot at you, Sean. That's I got it. And you got another one coming up, too. Yeah. Hey, look, Sean and I are well acquainted

with the excellent service and offerings from Verizon. So believe me when I say this upgrade deal is one for the books. Get the new iPhone 15 Pro with Titanium on Verizon. Plus Apple TV 4K and six months of Apple One Deal is one for the books. details, offer ends November 15th, 2023, and is only available in the United States. So, Will, you're back on American soil. Congratulations. Thank you.

Yeah. Did you kiss the tarmac when you got off your plane? I did. I always do that. So you asked them, as soon as you get off the plane, you say, hey, can I just go down the little stairs here on the jetway? I just need to kiss the tarmac.

Well, yeah, I mean, it's the only way to get off this plane. It was get off the stairs under the jet. Oh, my God. Well, you're trying to do a private joke. It was, you definitely went commercial at least, right? I went from England. Of course I did. I had an incredible, as you guys saw,

I say, that photo had an incredible time at Liverpool. Yeah, with the Yurgen. Sean, Will's doing really well, you know, he's, he's flying private occasionally. He's going, he's on, he's on the pitch in Liverpool. He's got a real, a real porny looking mustache on his face today. I'm, I'm gonna fresh new haircut. He's real boyish. Yeah, I went up to Liverpool. I watched them play at Ann Field, which is their ground. It was like such a dream come true for me. I know. Hang on. Sorry. And I got to my friend Tom took me up there kindly and that Werner Tom Werner and that's nice. Yeah. And Tom on the show. One of these. He's the best. So anyway, so Tom is part of obviously the group that they they on the red socks and

they on Liverpool in the Pittsburgh, penguins. So feisty to say Tom is an old friend. Jason, you know, I've played golf them a number of times. He's a great dude. And he invited me up to the game. I went up there. It was incredible. Billy, hold the end of when they got a big win against West Ham.

So it was all that's fine. Yeah, really cool. I was like, man got a win. They got a big win against West Ham. Oh, they did. That's fine. Yeah, really cool. I was like, man, I'm want to know. I said to your conclop, I go, I want to know. So I'm kind of good luck in, I guess you have to add me back. His his his assistant coach, who's like, so number one right hand guy, this guy, Pep Lenders, who's a Dutch football coach. He's a massive smartless fan. So Pep, I know you're listening. I think he's got a huge fan. He's got a huge fan.

Scotty has a CPAP. And Billy, Billy Hogan, who runs the team day to day, he's also a massive, massive smartless fan, listens to every episode. Really? Yeah. Every episode. So it was kind of like, it felt very good. They were all happy to. Well,

now because let me because like I know I know what a what a what a little you know, boy you are in the best sense the world when it word when it comes to liverpool or so you're you're trying to get one. And if I've said to people in the past, the only good thing about being semi-recognizable is that you can get a good table at a restaurant that's hard to book. But most importantly, when you meet your heroes, there's a decent chance they might know who you are and you can skip all the sort of fan,

like, oh, I'm so sorry, do you mind if I ask you? I said, they wanna talk to you too. So, yeah, would'm so sorry. Do you mind if I ask you? I said, they want to talk to you too. So yeah, was that amazing for you? It was amazing. Wasn't I don't know if it's because Pep had told you're going to or you're going to actually knew, but you're in club who I totally admire. I he comes towards me smiling. And I of course, I do it to everybody.

I do it to my agent. I go, hey, you're going to will will our net and he goes, I know who you are. And he came and give me a huge hug. It was chap, he's with me. Chap is like, what is happening? I know. This is, this is so freaking crazy. That's so cool.

Sean, we got a chap you mentioned. Yeah, we got a chap. And we did, but we're, you know, smartless. We are the official podcast of, of, of Liverpool football club. Yeah, that's so exciting. I got a flat tire yesterday. Should we get to the guest? Yeah.

No, by the way, here's the exciting. I got a flat tire yesterday. Should we get to the guest? Yeah. No. Yeah. Shots. By the way, here's the other thing I was going to say. So I come back state side as we say. Good. Those others more. Shuns juggling his bosoms. Bisms.

I come back and I start watching football and American football. Yeah. I see you two clowns every 10 minutes in your. Sorry about that. Yeah. I see you two clowns every 10 minutes in your, sorry about that. Yeah. In your Verizon spot. Yeah. You guys, I love you guys both. And you're in there and you're hilarious. And you guys have obviously great Kim and the great Will Speck and Josh Gordon directed it. Yeah. Yeah. And it made me so happy. I'm just to see you guys. No. The problem is that, you know, they, they, they came to us because the iPhone in Verizon is a fan of, of smartness. So they thought to come to us because the iPhone in Verizon is a fan of smartness. So they thought to come to us,

the reason listener that will is not on that is because he's got a prior commitment with a phone company. Yes, I have Jason, you're right. I have a prior commitment with a phone company, but what was fun was- There's more money for me and Sean, basically. Yeah, coming home, coming

back and seeing you guys on the air. It was like, I'd been gone and then like, and because it was Monday night football, I was like, look at these guys. Look at these. It was very good. You're not very good that whole day, Sean. Well, likewise. Now, wait, was that the first, Sean, it's the first time you and I have acted together,

right? I think so, yeah. I think it was. Yeah, I did the doc and everything, but that was just us playing. I guess we were playing ourselves in this spot too, but yeah. Anyway, it was fun. It was a real dream. Good God. You made me laugh. Are you both, for sure, you both look and Jason, I want to say that you didn't look great. You look great. You did not look puffy. Really? Yeah. You look very strong. I think I mean, should a little bit of help in post-production. I look like a good man.

It's just a little bit. Just a little under the eyes. I think a little post-production. It's called tough production. Yeah, tough production. But I don't know. Listen, you know, you got to be pretty on TV. Yeah. Sure.

You guys. Yeah. Let's get to our guest. Okay. This person's got stuff to do. Today's guest is a Grammy winner. What? Just bring him on. She has a degree from Stanford.

She's a gifted fisherman. She's got part Dutch, Canadian, English, Irish, Russian, she plays volleyball, basketball. She also has multiple Emmys. She's a Rhodes scholar and earned a doctor, philosophy, and politics from Oxford. What's that? She's written four books, had a crossword puzzle in New York Times, had her own radio show,

a couple of podcasts in her own TV show. What's happening? She's a hero to summon inconvenient to others. Please welcome Robert and Elaine's daughter, David's sister, Susan's partner, and one of my personal heroes, America's own Rachel and Maddo. Oh my God. Yeah. Now, America's own Rachel and Maddo. Oh my God. Yeah. Now that's a booking.

That's a booking. That is like a cry. I'm going to cry. Cry on me. This is crazy. This is a top notch booking, baby. I know. How did you get to me by saying you got to be pretty to be on TV?

Okay, let's go. The get that was that was cruel. This is very. Rachel, I've go the guest. I thought that was cruel. That was just so cruel. Rachel, I've been mistaken for you so many times. You should check in in the morning about who's using the haircut today. That should be noted until he talks. I'll definitely got the reminds me,

I'll never forget Will, Amy cracked me up one day. She said, what didn't she call herself? How did she make some cut? She said, I am, I'm the female Chris Matthews. Who said that? A.B. polar. Did she really? She called herself that once.

I thought it was a photo station. I actually, that's kind of a good party game, which MSNBC host are you? That is not bad. I saw you, Rachel. I saw you walking down the street in New York one time, like a couple years ago. And I was like, I'm a pure start to your story. Keep going. I was, I was following closely behind you in a van.

I'm not exactly a peer-to-peer. I could smell you, is you, huh? And I was like, hey, right, screw it. I was like, no, no, I can't. I'm too nervous. I was too nervous. Was I doing something weird?

Or was I just walking? No, you're just walking. You're just walking. Rachel, I am so, so excited that you're here. You, I will, with all respect to all of the guests that have been nice enough to say yes to my invites. I will say you're one and one A with, with radio head for me. Oh, well, Sean, can you attest to that? Yes. Jason talks about you all the time. I mean, all I do is watch MSN. It's true.

It's true. It's 12 hours a day. It's true. Do you think you are Joy Reid if you had to be one of us? There isn't anyone I don't love on that. It's anyway. I think if I am any other host, I'm, I think I'm Chris Hayes. I am Chris Hayes hangs a son for me.

I can't see that. You guys seem, I've seen you guys, I've seen you guys sort of go back and forth a little bit over the years and you seem like you guys legitimately get along very well. You see eye to eye. Yeah.

Very collegial workplace here. People like each other. But now we no longer have the handoff. The A, A, you're only one day a week and that one day a week, you're leading now is Jan Saki. Another past guest party. I love to. So guest with you guys. Oh, good. She's awesome. Now, do you think she's going to be

as good as at the on time handoff as Chris was? He was never late. He was so good about cutting off guests and getting to you on time. So humbling because he made such an effort to always make sure at 9,000,000, I was ready to go. Whereas I'm always traipsing like a minute and a half into Lawrence's show. Oh, you do 10 minutes with Lawrence on his because he makes sure he's got to tell everybody who he's got while he's still got your audience.

Which I get, I would do the same thing. Wait, I got a question, Rachel. When you, it's to the kind of to that point, when you're, what's fascinating to me about what you do is how you fill in the gaps and you constantly have something to talk about endlessly. Like, like, how much of that is like on a prompter or on a car or on a card or you just like, you've done, how much research before every single show? Are you just filled with education in your brain where you can just keep talking

about? I'm weighing in it like we do. I don't have any other life, for example. I don't have like things. It's just this. So anything where it's like me talking to the camera, I have written it down. If it's me interacting with another human, I have not written it down. So that's the way to know if it's in the teleprompter.

But like for instance, your interview with Cassidy Hutchitz in the other day was incredible. You were certainly prepared for that. You had questions that were very specific that we all really wanted to hear the answers on and she was incredible and beautiful forthcoming. I mean, book interviews are great, but it's got, I mean, I'm only interested in talking

to people about a book if I'm interested in the book. And so I've always read the book. And so, but once you've read the book, you don't have to do that much other preparation as long as you rock it and you can't understand what's going on. Rachel, like, explain to the guys what a book is. Yeah, what's that mean? Neither of them reads ever. It's an entire book for one interview. It's alarming.

It's just stunning. I know that. You know how stuff gets stapled together? You move the staple to the long side of the paper. Still long side of the paper and it's left to right top to bottom Right in TV terms just put it in like a television program Imagine a television program but all the dialogue was how else would I crunch into? Q cards you can hold you know what yeah, but what I was saying is just the the ability to like when if something goes wrong Or the satellite didn't connect sorry sorry, we can't get them.

And you just fill the space right away. Well, by the way, I will say, Rachel, just so you don't have to be too embarrassed about why you are so smart. I will say that part of the thing is that because I imagine someone like Rachel is so well-read that she's able to talk on many different subjects at all times, because she has points of reference other than, you know, the Golden Bachelor, you guys. So, which is a bear waiting for the watching match. I know neither can I, by the way, neither can I have never watched any of the bachelor's. No, never. And I want to watch that one too. What does it take to be Golden? How old is he?

Over 50. He's 72. You know, they had the Golden Bachelor once in Germany, but that was different. It was a different show. Here, get rid of the joke. So, here we go. Nope. It is what you think it is. Great. I've been there.

Sure. No, but Rachel, you have said, and when I say that, I'm talking about my research on Wikipedia, that you think you have an obligation to, since you have a light on the camera, that you need to have something to say when that light comes on. And you're very responsible in making sure that you're prepared

and you're brilliant at doing that A-block where you are giving us some story. We have no idea what the hell you're talking about for a few minutes in the best way. And then you land the plane and contextualize what this story, we have no idea what the hell you're talking about for a few minutes in the best way. And then you land the plane and contextualize what this story and history was as it pertains to something that's going on today. And it's just thank you for that. You hold me hand every night or once a week now.

It's, you know, that's the way that I learn. If something's going on that I think is interesting or important, I wanna be able to say why it's interesting or why it's important. And usually that involves some sort of origin story or some sort of historical analog or something like that. And so that's usually where those stories come from. But when it comes to just having something to say, it's just I really firmly believe in reading widely,

not only reading about the thing you're supposedly researching, but just reading a lot. Yeah, I think, you know, Rich, tell me if you, if this rings true for you at all, if something like you, you went to Stanford, your Rhodes Scholar, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're really well educated, you, obviously,

it can, you know, speak to a number of different, you know, sort of big issues. There used to be a time when somebody like you came along and was so well informed and was so smart, and able to, you know, really deal with a lot of complex issues at one time and blah, blah, blah. They would maybe turn all their talents to the public sector.

They would try in a way to, you know, to serve, you know, in government, et cetera, et cetera. And now, partially, and it's just really a result of where we are as a society, the highest calling almost is entertainment and celebrity. But also, but within that, you get to kind of have your cake and eat it too, because you get to go do that.

But in a way, you get to serve the public by, as Jason said, helping people understand what's going on. You kind of get to do both. Do you see it in that way that you're, that you're, and again, I don't want you to, you know, say that you're doing some great thing for the greater good in that, you know, but you kind of are, of course. It's nice of you to think of it that way.

I mean, I, I definitely feel like my job is trying to understand things myself so that I can explain them for lots of people. And so that is a very satisfying job, particularly at a time when things, I think the news, feels overwhelming or devastating to lots of people. To have it be your job, the thing you get paid to do, to try to understand it and explain it in a way that makes sense, that's real. That's a very therapeutic thing. But in terms of what I'm trying to do in the world,

I was an activist before I got involved in the media and I definitely see a real hard dividing line between those two things. I spent a long time trying to get people to do things, trying to get policies to change, trying to advocate for specific people in trouble or whatever it was. And I stopped doing advocacy and started explaining. There's no money.

There's no money in the table of restaurant. Well, as Jason said, but I get it. But talk more about that Rachel because that's a, that's, was it, I would imagine it was, it would be difficult to turn that switch off of advocacy with the end game being actual change and results, whereas now you're, you're probably able to say much more, which with much more specificity, deeper reach, much more research, but you need to be a little more, I guess, indifferent to whether the results are going to come because you're presenting information and potentially hoping that people react to it and change their patterns from it.

But there's no follow-up to that. Like there is in the other work you were doing perhaps. Yeah, it's interesting. I really feel like what I'm doing now has a bigger impact, but I have to have less ego about what it is. Because I'm not trying to change one pilot. I used to work for the ACLU National Prison Project, and I was in ASEAN ADAP ASEAN, in ASEAN,

in ASEAN activist sort of, hey, day. And we were always trying to get a thing done. And I feel like I know how to do that and I was pretty good at it, but I was sort of average good at it. There was a lot of other people doing it that were better than me. But with what I'm doing now,

I feel like hopefully by creating more understanding, by making what's important about the news and current events really plain to people, it makes it possible for people to make their own decisions about either just participating or doing activism. Yeah. We'll be right back. Smartless is sponsored by ADT.

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are trademarks of Google LLC. Smartless is sponsored by Better Help. So in my life, I'll start talking to Scotty about something and I'll start the conversation in the middle of a sentence because in my brain, I've already said the other half like the top half and he's like, wait, I don't even know what you're talking about. Who are you talking about?

You need to catch me up. So a lot of the times I get ahead of myself instead of stopping being present and catching him up on things because my mind races so fast, right? So do you ever feel like your brain is kind of getting in its own way? Like you know what you should do, what's good for you, but you just don't do it. Therapy helps you figure out what's holding you back. So you can work for yourself instead of against yourself. If you're thinking of starting therapy,

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Miles Davis. There are so many scenarios where Prime could make life a little richer that for me to list all of them would be impossible from shopping, to streaming, to saving, it's on prime. Visit amazon.com slash prime to get more out of whatever you're into. And now back to the show. So Rachel, your latest book, prequel, is a bit of a cautionary tale yet that yes, that is applicable to what we're talking about right here, that in fact America went through this at least once before, right around World War II, is this story that you've uncovered correct?

Yeah, I mean, it's basically, I think it's a positive story because there was all these Americans who fought against it, but there was this really big fight in the lead up to World War II in this country against the fascist movement in this country that in a lot of cases was actually working with Nazi Germany to try to set up a similar form of government here. And we had paramilitary groups,

and we had a Nazi agent working with lots of members of Congress on a big property. And it was seemingly a very big movement that had quite a bit of support. You know, there's lots of documentation to that. Yeah. The, you know, the most famous industrialist in the country, Henry Ford, was part of it. The biggest national hero at the time, Charles Lindbergh, was a big part of it. I'm watching the documentary. He just started watching it last night. It's called the United States and the Holocaust. Oh, yeah, the Ken Burns, yeah. Yes, it's fascinating.

It's just a little more like that. And he has a lot on Charles Coglin and Lindbergh. Yes. So Coglin was the biggest media figure we've ever had in America. And he was a self-described fascist and a rabid anti-Semite. And he set up armed militia groups around the country among his followers. Good guy. Was there a remedy that came from this that we could perhaps learn from to offset what we're dealing with?

Dude, we tried. I mean, I don't know if you've seen, but there's been other people who've come in and take over the media. And they're not necessarily American. Oh, yeah. And it's like you were saying, we keep making the same fucking mistake. What is the change? What is the change that needs to happen? Yeah, how did they get through it then that maybe we could kind of draft off now?

That's why I wrote the book is that I actually think there's a bunch of like lessons learned, things to, post it notes, things to remember for 80 years from now and this comes around again. I mean, obviously the Nazis are, there's nobody like the Nazis. That's not the analogy. The analogy is a domestic government. That was their slogan. That's a hat.

That's a hat. That's a hat. That's a hat. That's a hat. That's a hat. That's a hat. That's a hat. That's a hat.

That's a hat. That's a hat. That's a hat. That's a hat. That's a hat. That's a hat. That's a hat. That's a hat. That's a hat. That's a hat. maybe a, um, uh, a, anoculate ourselves from a possible future or, or, or, are there many small things? It's, it's that there can't just be one thing. And so there, it's just, everything has to happen at once.

So there has to be, when it's crimes, when there's violence, there has to be prosecution, like the criminal justice system has a role. And it's really important to protect them from being intimidated. The risk of violence that I was talking about in the 1944 sedition trial, which I write about in the book, the attorney general was actually pressured by a senator who was implicated in the plot, was pressured by that senator into firing the prosecutor in that case. Like it worked, like that's terrible. We have to make sure the Justice Department and the legal system is protected from intimidation. But then it's also activism, people infiltrating these groups,

good journalism about it, you need the military, to court martial people, you need the bar associations and churches to police their ranks. When the Catholic Church is who shut down Fr. Cogland and had they not, he'd still be preaching anti-Semitism all through World War II. So you're saying that we could live in a world where a president could escape punishment because potentially like the Southern District of New York would refuse to...

I mean, I'm just... Look, I'm trying to... I'm dealing in hypotheticals here. Well, maybe what might be even more apt, another book that you wrote, bag man, correct me if I'm wrong, is the spear agnew that there was a deal offered him that may or may not potentially be a precedent for what could shape the possible conclusion

of any sort of Trump sentencing? Well, what happened with Agnew is that they hit him with a 40 count federal indictment, which sounded amazing at the time. And now we're up in the 90-something count federal indictment and so he sounds like a piker. But yeah, they're hitting him with that felony indictment

and he so didn't want to go to jail that his very able lawyers negotiated a deal where he plead no-low, he plead effectively no contest to one felony. And he would avoid jail time, but the penalty was that he had to resign from office. And agreeing never to go into politics again, correct? You know, I asked the prosecutors who were involved in that

if that was a contingency, if they said, you can never run again. And they said, we'd ever thought that we would ever have to put that in writing because who would ever think of voting for somebody who'd been charged with that? No, but wasn't this right at the moment where they were pretty sure Nixon was either going to resign or be impeached and that spirit agni with all of these, what was a tax fraud or something like that, the possibility was strong that he could end up in jail as a result of that prosecution,

but then be appointed president because Nixon was on his way out and they didn't want a president to be incarcerated because it would just be a nightmare. So they offered him this deal. Am I getting any of that? This whole idea that you can't bring a prosecution against a sitting president. Yeah. That whole idea really was crystallized and formalized at the Justice Department around Nixon and Agnew because the Attorney General at the time, Elliot Richardson, is one of the people who was getting like middle of the night drunk in phone calls from Nixon, ranting and raving and seeming like a crazy person.

You are. The Attorney General thought he was in such bad shape that he was gonna die. And that Agnew was gonna be elevated. And it was tax evasion, but it was also bribery and extortion and all these other corruption crimes. And they thought, my God, we've got to figure out a way to get him out of there. But there's also nothing they probably never imagined

at Rachel because there was a thing back that people had that was called shame. We just certain point. And now where the people are so ashamed. I just felt it, just. Yeah, yeah, where they'd say, they'd be like, even a guy like, he's like, I'm not gonna fight. I'm not gonna go fucking do that.

I can't do that. That's indecent at the highest level. I've done a bunch of other shit, but doing that, now it doesn't matter. All of that is out the window because of, you know. Yeah, my, my, I think assume that, you know. I think such a dumb, dumb question. All of that is out the window because of, you know, you have my fancy suit. I think such a dumb, dumb question to all of this is like, why do people go into politics?

I don't understand. The second you get elected, you got to target on your back and then they're involved in everything we're talking about where I'm going to get you. I'm going to sue you. I'm going to sue you. And it's just, it seems like an endless game of that. I mean, you can do good stuff in politics.

Yeah, I mean. Government can do good things, but a lot of people go into politics because they want power and they want ego. You know, they don't have a very good structure. It's certainly not for the money, right? Doesn't average, the senator make far, far less, probably a tenth of what they could make in the private sector, being a lawyer. Most of these senators would be the top lawyer in their district, So they're taking a big pay cut. So it must just

go down. Although they all seem to do very well after they leave office. Yeah, no kidding. Yeah, yeah. You've seen a poor ex-senator. Yeah, yeah. What do they call a manenta? They go gold bar Bobby or something? Now, all, well, Rachel, let's go back. Let's go back to the volleyball and basketball days. And getting sort of the, now your father was Air Force, I believe, and your mom was in education. So yeah. Yeah, OK.

So then she worked at the middle school. OK. But there was clearly, there was that great sort of cocktail of those two things at the dinner table for you to start get interested in those worlds. Yes, and did politics was it an early passion or do you find it later? No, not at all.

It's interesting. I didn't, we weren't like a kid's book kind of family. We didn't have that, that wasn't the vibe. My mom is from, grew up on a farm very poor in Northeastern Canada. My dad was the first person in his family to go to college. I'm on the roll. Where do you say, well, where do you say, where do you say, where do you say, where do you go?

Where do you say, where do you say, where do you say, where do you go? Where do you say, where do you say, where do you say, where do you say, where do you go? Oh. Your mom's Canadian. Here we go. She's from Newfoundland. She's from Newfoundland? Yes. Oh, they're by, I'm going to say, you know, I'm Canadian from Toronto. We're going to say hi to all of our buddies out there, Newfoundland, there by, hey, there. Hey, Torre Bay, hey, Gander.

No way. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, big family, lots of sisters who are nuns. She didn't want to be a nun, didn't want to be a nurse, afraid of the sight of blood, and didn't want to be a nun, didn't want to be a nurse, afraid of the sight of blood, and didn't want to be a teacher, didn't much like children. So she left, came to the United States,

ended up meeting my dad when he was in the Air Force. But yeah, I grew up reading the newspaper. It was more interested in news. But then by the time I was figuring out who I was in my teenage years, it was the real height of the AIDS crisis, and I was coming out as gay and I was growing up in the San Francisco Bay area. So I got really swept up in AIDS activism really early on. Did you guys talk about current events and stuff at the dinner table?

Were you that family? Were you talked about what was going on? No. Not really. It wasn't really like that. No. I mean, my parents are fantastic. They're my favorite people in the world. But it just wasn't that kind of a vibe. Like I think they were as surprised as I was. I also didn't start doing anything in the news media until after I was almost done with

my graduate degree. I just was on a totally different plane. My first news job was I did an open on air audition to be the news girl on the morning zoo radio show To town that I was growing up in no way dry time no original matter on the morning. So is the greatest news girl was my title All right, we're here with the weasel and Woody in here with the weasel and the Woody and here with Rachel. Here you go. Wait, Sean, your dad was in the air for it, right? Yeah.

He took off. No, not just because he took off. Yeah, he took off. That's why I thought that. Rachel, what drew you to like want to even do that? What drew you to be like, oh my God, I want to be, I want to try that zoo news girl news review. It was a dare.

I was staying with friends. Zoo news. I was, I was staying with friends and I was staying with friends and I was doing odd jobs and I was terrible at all of them. I was doing deliveries, but I had a car with an electrical problem. So, every, unless I could leave my car running and it would not stall out, I could, I needed a jump every time. I had to go to a new door. I got a park on the hill, pop the fludge. I was really bad at that. I had to come too. I was, I worked at, friends had a coffee roasting company and I installed some plumbing backwards in their plant and made a faucet blow up.

And I just had a really bad job. It's on my friends who I was staying with said, oh, this morning show we listen to, they're doing this audition. And I auditioned live on the air and I got hired on the spot and started the next day. And I just loved it from the. I was just reading associated press like Rip and Read, top of the hour news copy. And you just couldn't get enough. Yeah, that's so cool. Amazing. But then though I'm going to jump way forward then now flashing forward you find yourself as a

panelist on Tucker Carlson show on MSNBC. And how I don't remember him on MSNBC, I, you came on my radar when I was, because I was a big, big still am an Obermann fan. You were, you were on there often. And, but what was it, was Tucker the same Tucker back then or was he on the left? No. He wasn't on the left. MSNBC wasn't really, I mean, Keith is what made MSNBC liberal, right?

He showed, he did great. He sort of came out as a liberal, did a great job. This is incredible broadcasting talent. Yeah. And he, with especially the special comments, kind of created, cut the path through the jungle in terms of making MSNBC have kind of a liberal identity. Before that, it really didn't.

And so Tucker doing the late night show on MSNBC, it was, like MSNBC was just politics. It wasn't any one lane in politics. I think it might have been his immediate post-Botai job. Like I don't think it was, I think it was post-Botai. Post-Botai, yeah. That's the delineation. I think that he became the Tucker that we all ended up knowing when he realized how well it paid to be that guy. And I know that's a cynical

thing, but I truly believe that. I don't know the guy at all, but I'm really good at judging people harshly. It's kind of a talent. You hear me talk about Elon Musk, but I will say. I love that. I will say, let me ask you, Rachel, when it comes to Tucker, do you miss him? I'm real busy. Yeah, I know. Well, that's good. Hey, and Bill O'Reilly must be doing something, but thank God that Keith came along and exposed us all to you and was such a big advocate for you. And you ended up being on a key show quite a bit and then guest hosting for him quite a bit

and enjoying it and him enjoying you and MSNBC enjoying you. And then your show took off, yes? Yeah, so it was interesting. One of the things that Keith did for me was he said, you should use my agent, and I never do that. I stopped my agent from representing anybody who I compete against, but you should use my agent,

which was a very generous thing. And she's fantastic. Her name's Jean Sage. She was my agent forever and ever and ever. And Jean convinced the president of MSNBC Phil Griffin to hire me, and the fact that I had done so well and perceived who have done well on Keith's show,

I think was absolutely the on-ramp there. But then I started at nine o'clock right after the 2008 election, or right at the 2008 election. And then that's what I've been doing ever since. Only recently did I scale back from five days to one day, but this is, we just turned 15. Yeah, that's awesome. Congratulations. It's a great, great accomplishment. Yeah, and, but now you're leaving yourself open to pursue

all the many other things that you're doing with the writing and the podcasting and, and, et cetera. And also finding time to live a life and fish with Susan. And, right? And what do you guys do something? So that's your way. Yeah, you're comfortable telling us that it just dums it all down. I mean, are you waiting with Bated Breath for the Golden Bachelors? Crap like that?

I say with all respect. We are such old. I think it's as much respect as you can muster. What do you guys do to dumb it down? We are, are you familiar with the Great British Baking Show? Yes, of course. Yes. I think it's the greatest television show I've ever made,

but I also haven't watched much television. No. So I don't know, but it's my perfect drug. It's my perfect drug. Does it get you then to the kitchen to try your talents at the same stuff? Oh no, I can only make drinks. Do you read a book while you're watching TV? What's your favorite drink? If someone's going to bring you a bottle of something as a gift, you're coming over to Rachel's house for dinner. What do they want to bring you? Is it wine? Is it? Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of, I don't drink vodka, but other than that, I'm pretty good.

I'm pretty, I'm pretty equal opportunity. But you know, I also feel like I need to be. What's the vodka story? At what point was someone holding your hair after vodka? No. I just don't like it. It tastes like a cleaning product to me. You know how like some people have that with cilantro?

And people always say like, oh, vodka has no flavor. I'm like, it does. And it tastes like you should be to me. You know how like some people have that with cilantro? And people always say like, Oh, vodka has no flavor. I'm like, it does. And it tastes like you should be. It's under the rim. It's amazing. I have this image of you and your partner Susan because our friend Eli is a friend of all of ours. He used to always say we'd watch you

when we were in Atlanta, whatever. And he'd say, I just want to go to Rachel's house and have coffee in the morning and have her just talk me through everything that's going on. Just that's going on and just make me feel okay and break everything down because there's so much information that just want her I just want to sit on her porch I go yeah Eli I don't think that's gonna happen buddy but also that's not what coffee with me is like it's the different it's a pretty nonverbal experience until I'm into cup two you know you know what Rachel you know I find

interesting what I really enjoy is watching you, when you do, when you're on TV and you're talking about a subject, your cadence is second to none because it's often quite broken up and you take pauses that I, what I've sort of gleaned from your pauses that you're thinking, which is extraordinary.

Because a lot of people just catch up, though. Well, yeah, it's suggesting that there's no prompt or for whatever subject that is that you're kind of using on, and that we live in a world where people are so quick to have an answer. It's not just about being right, it's about how quick you can be right. And it's so odd, and I think it's so powerful to take a moment

when you're talking about something to really think about it before you, it's kind of the thing when people say when we had Biden on last year on our podcast, the president Biden, and people say, well, what was he like? And I said, you know what? He's a really thoughtful guy. And yes, he's a little bit, he's older than we are.

However, I do like the idea of somebody who's in that position. Taking a minute to think about it, when presented with a problem. And that is something that is really undervalued. And I think I see you do it in real time. And I find it very interesting. It's very powerful, right? Yeah, very well said. Well, I mean, I think it's important do it in real time, and I find it very interesting, it's very powerful. Right? Yeah, very well said. Well, I mean, I think it's important not to

black through stuff that you don't know. If you don't know, it's okay. Like, it better, don't make it up, it's okay. We can find somebody else who does have the answer if you don't. Yeah. But even if you're being asked your opinion on something, I think there isn't value to just like singing it out in the right tempo.

You have to, there's has to be a reason that you're there. There has to be a reason that you're worthy of being asked and worthy of the attention. It's why I don't put on, I never on my shows, I never put on people to fight. And if somebody lies on the show, I don't invite them back, that I feel like I'm offering my audience a chance to hear from somebody

because I think they have something valuable to say. All right, I'll do it. Enhance, all right. I understand. I can see. Yes. Boy, you really misplaced that, Sean. I'm sorry.

She was... We'll be right back. Thank you to Audible for their support. We'll be right back. celebrity memoirs, mysteries and thrillers, motivation, wellness, business, and more. As an audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog of thousands of titles. I can tell you, I've been looking at all these incredible titles. I mean, listen, if they're all as good as the covers look, and now I'm trying not to judge a book by the cover, but I've got, I'm thinking about just planning

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All right, back to the show. Wait Rachel, do you think because, and then we, I want to get back more to you, but do you think now is the time more than ever in a long, long time for an independent to win next year? Because it doesn't seem like the, what I'm feeling is people aren't excited about one side, but a lot of the people seem like they're not excited about either side. And I thought, well, gosh, when it perfect storm for somebody to break through right in the middle and run as an independent. We really have a de facto two-party democracy, though. And so trying to bring about an independent candidacy at a practical level, all you're

doing is deciding which of the two parties you want to have that proportion of the vote shaved off of. So if you bring on an independent who's gonna appeal to Democratic candidates, you're just making it more likely that President Biden will lose. And if you bring on an independent candidate who's more attractive to Republicans, that you're making it more likely

that probably Trump will lose. So it ends up in real politic just being that. And we can reimagine the American political system using instant runoff voting and other things that are now being tried in some states so that there isn't that spoiler effect. But right now, while it exists, the only purpose of an independent candidate is to take votes away from the major party candidate who they're most likely. of an independent candidate is to take votes away from the major party candidate who they're most like. Well, there ever be a world in this country

where they will blow up the electoral college, that system. Will that ever happen? Maybe. I mean, there's all sorts of counter-majoritarian things, like things in our system that where the majority votes for a thing, but they still don't get it. That are starting to be really, I think,

overexploited by people who want different types of minority rules. So that's Jerry Mandering, that's the electoral college, that's other forms of abuse of the legislative system. The ways Congress are changing. Republicans, broadly speaking, are using them in ways that are against voting at a very level. You know, a Democrat selected governor of North Carolina. And so the Republicans in the North Carolina legislature

take away all the powers that the governor has. Yeah. Yeah. Eventually, that kind of stuff reaches its limit. If we're going to be a democracy and not a country where you rule by force, then people are going to have to stand up for democracy. And that might mean the countermajoritarian stuff, like the Electoral College,

is gonna get some pressure. And we're now seeing how vitally important it is to maintain control of the Supreme Court, and what happens when you don't. Yeah, and using underhanded and duplicitous and hypocritical tactics to get your majority on the Supreme Court, pays off for the life of the justices. underhanded and duplicitous and hypocritical tactics to get your majority on the Supreme Court pays off for the life of the justices. So that's a bad precedent to set

because you've now set the bar that any means necessary for getting a justice onto the court is effectively justified by what the Republicans did. Right, and we're not talking about necessarily, by the way, it should be noted to our listeners or listeners who were put off by us talking in this way. We're not, we're not saying that having a conservative judge is bad. I'm really not suggesting it.

If it's done within the framework of what is fair, then that's fine. What we're talking about is rigging the system to, you know, affect the outcome. And when you do that, that is not fair. That is not a democracy working and it's best, it's, it's, it's functioning at its best. And you should also be opposed to that because we're to work against you. You'd, you'd feel very undermined and you'd feel very cheated. And you'd feel like this system is. But unfortunately, it seems like we're having to start, start to sort of workshop and brainstorm what else we can do now that fair

is becoming less and less common in the political space. And do we take the bait and start playing by their rules and thus sacrificing our own values and ethics? Or do we continue on the high road and get comfortable with the losses? You know, I'm not sure what the future is gonna hold for that. I feel like the lesson of history here is to have one load star, which is protect democracy.

And that means make sure that everybody knows and everybody believes, and we reify every way we can that the way we solve problems in this country is through democratic process. And anything that is about, you know, what we're saying about the, you know, the fair process of, of which justice is ended up on the Supreme Court, if you vote for a conservative president, part of what you are voting for is if there is a vacancy on the Supreme Court, while that president in his office, that president will appoint a conservative to the court, or conversely, with a liberal.

You are voting for a liberal president. It is with the understanding that if there's a vacancy, there'll be a liberal appointee. Right. When that system gets broken, you are separating outcomes from the vote and you are making people feel like the vote doesn't matter. And in fact, you are making it so their vote doesn't matter, which means our democracy is getting weaker. Whatever whoever wins or loses any particular fight, the connection between people's desire and the outcomes they get from their government Should always be the load star because that's the thing that's under assault from people who want authoritarianism and rule by force instead of rule by vote.

That's right. And so to that, can you, I hate for you to make a prediction, but what do you think is the life, we're going to be the lifespan of Travis Kelsey and Taylor Swift? Is there any way that was saying the same thing to the playoffs? Right. I mean, I'm all in. You know, it's, it's all hard not to live. Really. It's a very large man. He's a very large target. There's a lot of ways to make him.

Yeah, you're good to avoid an answer on that one. Now, Rachel, I'm sure that there's a team of incredibly gifted people that you get to work with every day, or maybe not every day now for your show. But yeah, what is your favorite part? I want to ask you to take us through your entire day because I'm sure it's a lot. But is there a favorite part of the day that is potentially completely imploded when there's some breaking news and you got to toss it all out?

What's your favorite part of that collaboration? Part of the reason that I left doing five days a week and went to one day a week is that I felt like my thoughts were getting shorter, that I was starting to think and short thoughts without law. I wanted to think book length thoughts instead of tweet length. Lots. And so now that I have this new schedule, I'm spending a lot of time and I'm working on a

lot of projects that involve me reading a lot of books. And so, I'm often kind of, I look like I'm going to get smothered by a collapsing pile of books about Nazis at any time of the day. But to have to like dig myself out of my home library where I'm dug into, you know, something going on in the 1920s in Mexico. And then have to jump into like, wait, the bankruptcy court judge said, what about Trump Soho?

Can't be a little weird. Yeah, so you must have an incredible team of researchers that can keep you up to date and or answer questions when you have them about where the legal ramifications of XY or Z. I mean, it's probably never ending. Well, MSNBC made a good decision. I mean, in the Trump era, everybody in the news had to become like a jailhouse lawyer. Like we all had to learn. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, the same way that we all became medical experts through the pandemic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. We all developed, or that's expertise. But the MSMDC did a really good thing and they hired a bunch of lawyers, both as on-air correspondence,

but also as off-air consultants to help us process and understand and be correct about analyzing. You know, it used to be just Supreme Court decision, you'd have to deal with, or an occasional like true crime thing that captured people's attention.

Now, it's, you know, the president in potentially going to jail in four different jurisdictions, you need to know a lot more, with a lot more specificity. You might enjoy this. This is a little bit of attention. We can always cut it about six months ago.

I was in Atlanta with Eli, and we got in a normal argument at breakfast over there at the okay cafe, which is a terrific diet. Xring, you and Eli in an argument is all over the field. Yeah, and our buddy Bob, and we were sitting there, and I said, I made the point that, was Chappy out there? Chappy was, no, Chappy was not there.

He was at the infield with Greg and Clop. And I brought up the point that ignorance of the law is never a defense. As you might know, Rachel, you know that probably. And it's just not. Eli and I went back and forth. So I ended up calling Jeff, who's, I work with, who's also an attorney.

He agreed with me. Eli said, well, I don't think he really knows, eh? And Eli's from Halifax. So then we call my dad, who's retired for many years. And my dad said, well, actually, Willie,'s from Halifax. So then we call my dad who's retired for many years. And my dad said, well, actually, will he? Yeah, yeah, right. It's not ever a defense, et cetera. Eli didn't believe me.

So we were able to time Eli went to the bathroom. Bob goes on, what's that cameo? Sure, oh god. And we find out that for $100, we can get Alan Dershowitz to do a cameo. So we put in the message and he said, Hey, everybody, just graduating from law school is kind of an inside joke. Tell everybody Eli about whether or not ignorance is the laws of defense. And Alan Dershowitz does this fucking cameo within 20 minutes that we said to Eli in the job.

By the way, he did it from his home within 20. We're in, we're still in the argument and he gets an email from Alan Dersuit saying, it's never fucking great is that. So what did Alan say in the cameo? He said, you know, I was just getting a massage. I just, you know, I never took the clothes off. These are close. Well, what a cameo.

And any, but he agreed with it. He said it's never, you know, ignorance of the law is never a defense. Whether or not you're wearing your underpants. Whether or not you're wearing your underpants. How fucking great is that? That's the best thing. Anyway, sorry.

We should use cameo more for inside. Stuff like I know. Settling inside jokes and arguments. We should use cameo more for inside. The stuff like I know. Settling inside jokes and arguments. How good is that? A good idea. I got one once from the guy from Insane Clown Posse. Did you really? That was really good.

It was thanking me for having done a thing for a pal. But it was just this magnificent font of like every iteration of the F word. I had ever heard used every other, like every possible way. It was like, it was mech and you did, and you did not have a beef with any of the juggalus, right? That's what their followers are called. I'm pro juggalus.

Is that true? Yeah, that's true. The juggal? Yeah, I'm kidding. Do you know what it means to be anti-juggal-o? That you can't get that, don't say that. Really, don't say it. Rachel, when you're home and your pile of books

reading a stuffed is, is it something you ensues and chat about? Like, do you guys like, Susan's like, hey, honey, what book did you read today? Or is it something you completely do by yourself? And she does this all by yourself. And then you meet for dinner at the end, and you talk about the day,

but you don't talk about your books. Pretty much the latter. Yeah, I mean, what I do, which is a horrible thing, is that we'll be out like in the woods on a dog walk or something, and I'll go, hey, do you want a Nazi story? It's always, no. No, really. This one's burning a hole in my pocket. thing is that we'll be out like in the woods on a dog walk or something and I'll go, hey, do you want a Nazi story? It's always, no.

No, really. It's always burning a hole in my pocket. Wait, can I tell you please? Like, she'll occasionally indulge me, but I cannot overstate the importance of having a partner who does not value your work. Yeah. I think it's really important. Jason knows.

She likes me, but she doesn't care. Jason's well aware. Jason's well aware. Jason's well aware. Yeah, exactly. My daughters, they don't give it up either. They're like, they could not be less interested. It's very good for you.

It's very good for you. The other day, the other day I was with Jason, and is one of his daughters, so I absolutely love. And I said, Jason, it's like, wait, what did you say? I'm like, Jason, I texted that to you like a week ago, and he goes, and I never responded. And I go, no. And his daughter turns to's like, wait, what did you say? I'm like, Jason, I texted that to you. Like a week ago and he goes, and I never responded. And I go, no. And his daughter turns to me and she goes,

that's okay, never response to my text. See that? Oh, not sure. I'm just, he's the worst. I just, I don't think. You're the fucking worst. The ones that are important get the rest. T times.

T times, T times. If you said that, you've got to work well. If you ever wanted to get a response to that, Jason, you just go, how's next Thursday at 10 look for you to tee off and then he'll answer you and then you've got him and then you say the real thing. I like to stay occupied during a strike you know I'm trying to keep the brain fresh. No no Sunday dinner when I was out of town is that it still happened dinner happened when I was. Yeah life does keep going.

Fuck man it's shocking. Yeah Rachel we love you. We can't love you enough. Such an honor to meet you. I can't believe I'm so busy. No, you're so cool. Thank you for having me. You guys are really awesome.

And I'm very, it makes me, I have to say, just briefly, little earnestness. There's a lot of crappy podcasts that have a lot of listens in the world. And it makes me happy and heartened that you guys are so successful with this because you guys are nice and interesting in kind. And that is not usually what sells in this world

and you guys are doing, your success in this world makes me happy. Thank you. Oh, thank you. Thank you, thank you. Yeah, we feel the same about you. You've done so much for so many people and I think you're doing,

I think you're doing a great service to the world. So thank you. Thanks guys. Yeah, rest up. You've got a busy year ahead of you. Thank you for spending a little time with us. Yeah, and one of these days I'm going to stop you in New York and then we're going to have a proper meal.

Just to have the van pull over and get it out. A little ether cloth. You just put it right over my nose and throw me in the van. That's how everybody else does it. What? That's hysterical. Enjoy the rest of the day. Thank you Rachel.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye. Wow, JB. Well, that was, yeah, I don't think my, that's the first time my pit started sweating before we started the podcast. Yeah, I was like nervous too.

But you didn't even know who it was. No, when she came on, I was nervous. Oh, yeah. I was like, I'll start shit. That's so fucking smart. It's so scared to ask anything that you're gonna, because I'm gonna sound like a dumb shit. Well, but I mean, that's, I think,

you don't need Rachel Maddaw for that, John. Well, we have the title of the podcast to cover all that. You know, we're not claiming to be investigated journalists. Nobody's having us on MSNBC, okay? Yes, sure. But I'm so glad the way that that went, because I knew that, obviously, it's kind of baked in that it's going to be political. And we try not to be overly political on this show.

But so it was nice to have a conversation with somebody who is so political to have it not be, you know, kind of burn it all down. Well, and also not just political, but also really fucking smart. Yeah, really smart. And also, like as I said in the thing, it's like, it's not left versus right

and right versus left. It's really more about everybody's in total of the country. Yeah, it's just about like, let's cracking it open. People like crack it open and shed light on it and go This is actually not the way this is this is not actually quite fair. Let's look at it and be honest about it That's it. Yeah, that's it. Yeah And she does make the medicine go down real easy too. I just love the way she shapes stories and points of view. And she just, she helps my brain get a little bit calmer

based on the way that she's able to articulate some of the stuff that's going on. And maybe some of the things we might need to watch out for. How much, you watch her every night or when she's on. When she's on, yeah. But I'm watching Nicole Wallace and Chris Hayes. And I don't know.

How much more do you think that you could get from it if you had less gummy? I just, what I'm trying to do is gummy to news. I'm trying to, I'm trying to see there. There's a combo there that trying to get right mix. Well, it's the perfect, I'm not able to really comprehend a lot of what I'm listening to or looking at. So it needs to be a ton of information coming.

I is be Jesus. It's not true, listener. He's really taking a run at me. I took one on Sunday. It was delicious and it was amazing. Did you had one? I had one on Sunday with Jay. Not Jason didn't have one when I had one.

Yeah, right. Yeah, no, I watched. Yeah, he watched me. So you did have, you guys did have dinner on Sunday with Jay, not Jason did now when I had one. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, I watched. Yeah. You watched me. So you did, you, so you guys did have dinner on Sunday without me? Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we do it again too. Next time you want to go out of town and not be with us. Yeah. Yeah. But you know what? Like, to your point, we'll have a good time here. Here we go. Fuck me. No, nobody, nobody, you know, see you come.

Nobody knows. Everybody. But you nobody, nobody. You know what I mean? Nobody, nobody. It's like, everybody, everybody. It's like, you left her with. It doesn't matter like. Fuck, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter where you are left or right. It's like, we all have to get along. We all have to let bygones be. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.

Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. SmartLess is 100% organic and artisantly handcrafted by Rob Armjurf, Bennett Barbaco, and Michael Grandterry. Smart, less.

Our next episode will be out in a week wherever you listen to podcasts, or you can listen to it right now early on Amazon Music, or early and add free by subscribing to Wondry Plus in Apple Podcasts or the Wondry app. Okay, so if you had a time machine, how far in time would you need to go back to be a dominant basketball player of that year? I need to go to when Bob Coosie was playing. Back in the plumber days. 27 year old Shay would give Bob Coosie the business.

He's not guarding me. Hi, I'm Jason Gutsup's young. And I'm Shay Serrano and we are back. We have a new podcast from Wondering. It's called Six Trophies. Woo! And it's the best. Each week, Shay and I are combing through all of the NBA

storylines finding the best, most interesting, most compelling ones, and then handing out six pop culture theme trophies for six basketball related activities. Trophies like the Dominic Toretto, I live in my life on quarter mile and a time trophy, which is given to someone who made a short-term decision with no regard for future cons twins. Or the Christopher Nolan a time trophy, which is given to someone who made a short-term decision with no regard for future cons Twents. Or the Christopher and all Intennet trophy,

which is given to someone who did something that we didn't understand. Catalina Wine Mixer trophy. Ooh, the Lauren Hill you might win some, but you just lost one trophy. Follow six trophies on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Equalist to six trophies,

and free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Now, they're joining Wonder E+.