SmartLess - "Willem Dafoe"

Episode Date: September 4, 2023

Animal husbandry, Wisconsin, the craft of acting, and most importantly, the craft of being a good human being. Welcome to da show with Willem Dafoe.This episode was recorded on June 29, 2023.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello, my friends, we are here today. Listener, before you change your channel. Sorry, I was just trying to do, I thought that we had an international market. So I was like, you know, trying to say hi. But now I could do like this as well. Welcome to Smarlas, maybe I'll come here and I'll have a take one coffee. It's a wrap. Thank you.

Or maybe I'll go see my mistress and I'll hit every cliché in the book. And welcome to a... one coffee, a cigarette, and a bag of beer, or maybe a coffee by mistress, and I'll hit every cliché in the book, and welcome to a, is an onus, Marles. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.

Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. This is smart.

Bless. Will, you fired up about your guest? Actually, oh my god. Wait, let me guess. It's an on Janu, and that's why you're trying to be nice and cool. Okay. A little gel in his hair. Yeah, your hair looks amazing.

Yeah, it's banging. I got... Is this somebody... Is your guests... Is somebody that you have a crush on? Do you have a crush on your guest? I have a major talent crush on this person, yeah. And...

Oh, man! It's a man! And he's got a smoky laugh. Don't laugh, don't laugh. Don't laugh, your laugh is too disdainful, man. Don't laugh! Now he's fart is too distaste man don't let oh Now he's farting Oh

No, now you guys you'll definitely get it now you guys. Oh my god First of all that's's Cargolio, Bungwater, right? Go ahead, Sean. I was trying to tell you about my birthday dinner last night. Yeah, let's hear that. Yeah, hey, happy birthday, Sean. Happy birthday, Sean.

Thank you, thank you. Did you finish all the cupcakes, Will, and I sent you? Yes, that was incredible. I didn't finish them, but yeah. Whatever sweet treat it was. I got the second, the second I opened it, thank you, by the way. The second I opened it, I've,

a port of glass, I'm giant milk and I went right into it. Okay. But the next night, so Scotty gets this, so Scotty gets this reference to, I mean, I'm sorry, referral to this restaurant that's on Billionaires Row in New York City, right? You know, on 57th. Central Park South.

Yeah. Whatever it is. It was Central Park South. Yeah, whatever it is. Right, it was Central Park South or on 57th Street. You keep going billionaires, right? Is that what they call it? Now, I never use that term. I don't know.

That's what I heard. I have no idea. I'm not a billionaire. But so you have to get a reservation. The conversation's over. Yeah. You have to get a reservation, right? So Scotty asks this person who asked this question.

We want you to go to the Russian T-Rome. That's right above it, actually. Yeah. So the, uh, so we go into this building who asked this person. Who would you go to the Russian T-Rome? That's right above it, actually. Yeah. So we go into this building. It's crazy. It's got all the security. We're scared to walk in. And we walk in.

We're like, hey, I have a reservation. And it's on the 100th floor. Yeah. 100th floor. Oh, Will, I think I sent you the video. Yeah, you did. That's why I keep going. Yeah, I know.

Oh, gosh. Hang on a sec. Let me check. See., it must be my trash. It was really late. Jay, it was really late. I didn't want to disturb you. Oh, wait, I'll show you. You should have looked them. They looked like a couple of dudes are in from Scenectady. You know what I mean? Like, they were so excited to be there. Look at the heights of this. Wait, does this restaurant rotate slowly? No, look at this, Jay. Look at this. Look at this. That's Scotty.

And that's you. By the way, they just look like animated LinkedIn profiles. Look at that. Both you guys. So it is rotating. No, the camera's rotating. Oh, isn't that wild? That view.

It's what I never want to do it again though, because it was heights. I couldn't go. So guess what? So I said to Sean, I talked to Sean before he left, and he goes, he's telling me he was going, and I said, are you scared? He's like, yeah, I'm scared.

I mean, well, you were scared. I was so scared. I was really scared. I don't need to do that. Are you guys okay with that? I'm not okay with that. I don't want to be up that high. I don't need it.

I don't really. The food was good though. Yeah. But it's kind of good for weight loss, right? You go up there, you lose your appetite. You don't really want to eat a bunch. Yeah, love it. Is that why the weight loss, right? You go up there, you lose your appetite, you don't really want to eat a bunch. Yeah, love it. Is that why is it the restaurants for skinny folk?

Yeah. By the way, there's only five tables, not even kidding. There we go. Because it's a restaurant for the residences. I can clearly spit tag on my microphone at the loop around to weight loss. Guys, this body is no fluke. Okay, I've told you before. Sure, isn't. That's what makes it worse is that it's by design. Hey, you know what's great

by design? Oh, here it comes a nice segue into it. But it turns out that it's really organic is a career that is just full of incredible performances, of varying sizes and characters and the grease, the things and things. Somebody who started Sean, you will enjoy, because we know you love the theater, we know you're on Broadway, still currently.

Like the Alaska theater. Tony Award winning, hold for. Plot in Oscar. Tony Award, I love you. Is that what's called? For Good Night to Basko, the story of hot sauce. But that good night Oscar. And so this person, you're going to have, you're going to be able to get some great theater

stories out of because he started in the theater. Not only he just started in the theater, he also ended up starting a theater. And which he went back to and performed for, you know, 40 years or more in this theater group, a very well-known theater group. He did a lot of incredible performances. He's then gone on to do so many iconic roles over the years. He's made 147 feature films. No. He's been in some of my favorite feature films, some of my favorite performances of all time. He's been nominated for four Academy Awards and Golden Globes and Sags and all the other stuff.

But for me, apart from his incredible performances in some of my favorite films, Like To Live in Dianna L.A. or Platoon, he was also Bobby Perou, maybe my favorite character, who I went as for Halloween once. Guys, it's Willem DeFoe. No way. That's a booking.

No way. Good morning. Oh, God. Willem DeFoe. Wow. I almost pulled the thing off the little camera. Every time you said, well, I reach for the camera. Oh, my goodness.

He knows how to respond to a cue? Yes. Yeah. What a pleasure to a cue. Yeah, well, yeah. What a pleasure to meet you. Hi, everybody. Thank you. Yeah, it's so nice to meet you. Tell me a crushed thing, but thanks. Oh, well, it's such a, it's such a thrill to meet you.

And I did say it. So I want to kind of get it out of the way. I did in the 19, the year that Wilde and Hart came out, I went like a month later, I went as Bobby Peruv for to a Halloween party. And I bought some vampire teeth at a store down on Eight Street. And I took a lighter or something. I mean, I'm like flat and dark and I put them in. And I wore a Bolo tie.

And I won't say what he was, what he kept saying. What were you kept saying like catchphrase? Yeah, it's catchphrase, but he kept saying is like, what is he talking about? You're pussy or something. I don't know, it was terrible. It was something terrible. So that's when you were just barking all night?

Yeah, I mean, I met a lot of friends as you're gonna manage. Sure, yeah. And let's go see if you guys know that. So I want to get that out of the way. But Willem Dafoe, what a thrill to meet you, man. Great. Thanks. So, yeah.

Nice to be here. We have no questions. We have no questions. Okay, ciao. No, we do. So, it's true, right? I was right in the intro, Willem, that you started. Let's start at the beginning.

You started in the theater. I know that you're from Wisconsin and then you moved to New York and you got a meeting. Well, you're doing sort of theater in Wisconsin, Milwaukee, in some avant-garde theater, and then you moved to New York and started doing that there. Am I right in that? That's right. That's right. I still do theater, but last because for many years, I had a company, so every day I was going into work, you know, the way, you know, regular people do. Yeah.

You know, really every day that I was not on a movie set, I was either at the theater working or we were on tour. It was really a whole life. One thing that's worth mentioning, yeah, I did start doing theater in Milwaukee with a small group called Theader X. But then when I moved to New York because I had ants in my pants and ambition. And also it was a time where a lot of things were happening in New York. And I felt like I wanted to be there, particularly the music scene, not that I'm a musician.

But it felt like stuff was going on. So I went there, but I think it's fun to tell you that I really intended to be conventional theater actor, audition and all that. But that's what year was this? Well, initially I went in 75, but then this company in Milwaukee that had seen me in my brief period at school called me back to going tour with them. I did work with them for a couple of years.

They were called Theater X. It was a company run, small company. We did original work, which was very cool. We toured mostly internationally, not so much in the States. And, yeah, that's what I did for the past. Just doing a bunch of different plays. Or, we were making plays, you know, generally. Right, original.

We had a writer that worked with us. And occasionally we'd do plays, but they were kind of unconventional. Where were you going internationally? You just take your merry band of... Mostly Germany and Holland at the time. There was a very good place called the Mickery in Amsterdam. And it was really where I got my education because they brought in theater.

They had lots of money. And they brought theater from all over the world. And when I was there, I'd see things, you know, from Japan, I'd see things from Africa. I'd see a lot of the great Peter Brook. I'd see lots of great theater companies from Europe. Peter Brook, who's sort of, you know, with like one of the Godfrey, if you guys don't know,

one of the Godfathers of sort of avant-garde theater and he's just incredible. And of course, Amsterdam may beda maybe great place because everybody's all knocked out on grass, you know what I mean. Yeah. You do it all, so it's crazy. But so everyone's doing these plays in English, obviously, even though they're from Germany or Africa or... No, not necessarily.

Not necessarily. Because it's also the kind of... They're the kind of performances in place that don't necessarily lean too heavily on the playwright. Not always, sometimes yes. But it's more about the production. Because it's a theater that is more based on other elements, not just on the playwright and on conventional elements. But what I was gonna say before, and you guys are so fast, I'm a little slow,

when I moved to New York, I really intended to be like a guy or a dish name and go to Broadway and that kind of thing. But I just found myself going downtown, and going to loft performances and just getting really attracted to these people that were working down there. And I felt like as a kid from Wisconsin,

it really transformed me. You know, it really made me see theater in a new way and made me see performing in a new way. And that was really exciting. We're in Wisconsin. My sister lives in Wisconsin. Is she doing okay? She's doing okay.

Thanks. I just want to know if you grew up there anywhere close to her. I grew up in Appleton, Wisconsin. She lived for a long time in white water, but she's not there in water. There's a university there. Yeah, that's where her husband worked.

As a, yeah, that's usually the reason someone's in university there. Yeah, that's where her husband worked as a... Okay. That's usually the reason someone's in white water. And white water. We have a big... And this is not even a bit, well, this is... We have a huge following in Wisconsin. We're like the number one podcast in Wisconsin. So it's quite a trophy.

It's actually a true story. It sounds like a weird thing to say, but it's kind of true. So Willem, your choices in style and talent and everything is so always fresh and surprising and could even say avant-garde. Do you think it started there with what sounds like a very atypical theater scene that you've been able to carry on and and kind of um you know we're the beneficiaries of that you always seem to take a very fresh take on any of the characters that you play and you and you pull it off. Thank you.

Thank you. Start back from back then? Yeah you must have I mean because really performing in the theater really formed my taste, my nose, the things I was interested in. So that definitely, you know, is shaped to I.M. as a performer and what my appetites were. But always when people, quite frankly, I feel flattered when people say, oh, you choose well or you choose interesting things. That sounds good, but I always maintain that projects find you and you find projects. It's not like it's not in my control.

True, but when you are given a script that has a Willem Dafoe character in it, which is to say something that's not simple. You, and these are not auditions at this point, you're showing up on set with this incredibly gifted take on something. What is that process like for you? Is there an anxiety that you have still to this day about,

oh my gosh, is the first time they're gonna see this big swing I'm taking. Now, I'm gonna pull it off, but they gotta hang in there with me before they tell me not to do it and trust that I can get there and deliver it in full. Do you think about that stuff? I don't try to do that.

You don't? No, I try not to think about myself. I hide behind other people. Yeah, yeah. Like directors are very important for me. And I feel like at least whether it's true or not, I trick myself to saying, I'm just this guy that's going to go there and help this person realize what they're doing. And it's, I never have like, I never have ideas, I go to a place, you know, I prepare and I have something up my sleeve and I have certain kind of tendencies of taste and things I'm attracted to. But really,

I go there and I see what's there and then I try to have an adventure. And usually, as far as self-consciousness about how am I doing or my choices or this is a risk or this is not a risk or what are they going to think of this. I really trick myself into not thinking about those things. Well, I read this interview from you when you're younger talking about this very thing, about your relationship to the audience or like going for something and like going for a result or we're inhabiting a role, all these kinds of ideas that you're talking about.

And you talked about this idea that, well, first of all, one of my favorite quotes that I found when I was reading about you, which is whenever you talk to actors and they've done special preparation, whether it's putting on lots of weight or hanging out with junkies or being a junkie, they go on and on about it

and it makes good copy for people magazine and all that, and people like the irritant, but inevitably it gets self-satisfying and precious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was, yeah. Which made me laugh, because I was kind of with you on that. But what struck me was,

and this kind of goes to Jason, I think what you were getting at, which is like, you said that you don't inhabit a role. You are for moments while you're doing the role, taking the character through the sort of, within the context of what you've been giving the character is gonna do in the scene, you do that. But it's not you, is that kind of right?

Well, it's all me because it's not anybody else. But, you know, you kind of figure where all people, we have the capacity to be all people. But I don't like this idea of choices or interpretation. I like the idea of doing actions, like an athlete. And when you give yourself to those actions, it puts you in a place where there's a kind of logic. And if the world is built correct, and if you enter the world in a correct way,

and aren't too obsessed about saying something, but being there, then I think you learn stuff. You have a special concentration and a special relationship to what's going on in that room. The trick I think always is, yes, you've got to prepare something, but the people that really turn me on when I'm working with them is people that work with what's there. They are pointing to stuff outside. They aren't thinking about the audience outside.

They aren't sending messages. audience, I'll say. They aren't sending messages. They aren't, you know, nothing exists. The world drops away. And this is your life. If you can get behind that, then you're actually free. I was going to say kind of actually again to what Jason was saying was about taking the big swing. I guess you feel free if you're not worried about, because I, yeah, I agree, you're not, if you're not worried, if you're not encumbered by that thought of taking a big swing, because in your mind, there is no swing. You're just being in the moment, right? Yeah.

That's one way to think about it. You know, it's, it's funny. Everybody's different. Yeah. And, you know, you touch different buttons and you're interested in different things. I like all kinds of performances So when I say this stuff it's not a right way to be I'm trying to figure out what makes me tick in this context You know, so I'm just trying on some stuff for size not to create a method, but really to think about

What the consistent things are when I enter a movie or I do a play or something or what performing is about for me. Have you ever showed up on a set to all of this point? Have you ever showed up with taking a swing? All you did all this prep and the first take happens and the director goes, can't talk to you for a minute. And uh, far less. Well, yeah, I was going to say on that, do you, uh, and, and I obviously met no disrespect with saying big swings, but like, there are only a few actors. You are one of those few that can take a swing that is something we've never seen before or imagined

and completely executed flawlessly. Do you have conversations with the director in rehearsals where at least they get some sort of a conversation or maybe even a creative negotiation to make sure that that particular take on the character fits into the other many, many plans that a director has for that film as far as tone goes, what the other actors are gonna be doing,

what the shape of it creatively is going to be, and make sure you're in line with that before you get on the set. Yeah, you bring up something interesting to me, and you don't have those conversations. You kind of intuit it, but I'm really struck by, bring up something interesting to me. And you know, you don't have those conversations. You kind of intuit it. But I'm really struck by, you know,

the beauty of making movies or doing places every time it's different. So it's very important. Part of your job is to look around, see who's there, see how they work, see what their tendencies are, see what the world is, and fold in. Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah.

So many people decide how they're gonna do the part before they even see what everyone else is, and the fact that you're malleable is, that's amazing. That's the theory anyway, maybe I'm not. But Willem, do you ever kind of do that? Do you ever come in and then go like, okay, so wait, so I had like Jason was saying, like I have this idea come in, and then you go like, okay, so wait, so I had like, Jason was saying, like, I have this idea come in and then you go like,

oh, everybody's kind of here like, okay, well, maybe I'm gonna kind of shed a little bit of that. Now I'm gonna kind of move it this way, like in the moment. Absolutely, yeah, that's cool. But I don't come with too many ideas. I don't believe that. No, no, really, listen, sometimes you read a script

and sometimes you say, wow, I have special information on this. I want to be there for this. Or this is so far away from me. I got to do some research. I got to go through something to, you know, be in this world. And both are good. Yeah. We'll be right back.

Smartless is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, there are times in all of our lives when we've had things pop up that we don't know how to deal with. And it's left us kind of wondering how we're gonna get through it. Do you ever find that just as you're trying to fall asleep, your brain suddenly won't stop talking?

Do your thoughts start racing right before bed or at other in opportune moments? Well, it turns out one great way to make those racing thoughts go ways to talk them through. Therapy gives you a place to do that. So you can get out of your negative thought cycles and find some mental and emotional peace. If you're thinking of starting therapy,

give better help, a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists at any time for no additional charge.

Because that stuff does come up. I've had over the years a few moments where it just felt like there were too many moving pieces. There were too many things that felt overwhelming and I wasn't sure how I was supposed to react to them. And maybe because I was old enough, but you know, I think even if I were younger, I would have had the same thought, which was like, what do I do about this? Because I don't feel comfortable. And I can tell for me, if I don't feel comfortable,

that I need to go and talk to somebody about it. And I'm really grateful that I was able to have the opportunity, or just the, I don't know, that I took the initiative to go and talk to a professional about it, because it completely changed the, that I took the initiative to go and talk to a professional about it, because it completely changed the way that I looked at whatever was going on in my life. And I could walk away thinking, you know what? I feel more clear, and I don't feel

as emotionally kind of spun out as I did right before I started the session. And, you know, for me, it works. Anytime I've gone and talked to a professional, I've just felt so much better and all those things that felt so huge and insurmountable kind of got brought back into a right-size place. Get a break from your thoughts with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash smartless today to get 10% off your first month. That's better help, H-E-L-p dot com slash smartless.

Smartless listener, we are supported by FanDuel. Snap into action this NFL season with FanDuel America's number one sports book. Right now, new customers get $200 in bonus bets guaranteed when you place a $5 bet. That's $200 in bonus bets guaranteed when you place a $5 bet. That's $200 in bonus bets winner lose. If you've been thinking about joining a fan duel, there's no better time to get in on the action.

The app is easy to use. There's a wide range of betting options, including spreads, player props, overunders, and more. You know, Sean, by the way, would have a lot of fun if he could bet on musicals, you know, odds against maybe costumes or set design. So I don't know, I think that that would be something that Sean would enjoy. I'd love to see him actually try to set up the odds and I'd love to see him bet on that. So that's something that I am going to look into. You know, for me, I'm a fan of duels and I'm also a fan of fans.

I love a fan. I love meeting a fan. I like getting a cool breeze from a fan. So, you know, for me, this really adds up. And if I can have dual fans as in two fans, then even better. And I've also been known to go to a duel that I was involved with, and I fanned off

both participants in the duel. So really, it's just like multi-pronged for me. So visit fandool.com slash smartless and kick off the NFL season. Fan-dual official partner of the NFL, 21 plus exclusion supply, C show notes for full disclaimer. partner of the NFL, 21-plus exclusion supply, C-Show notes for full disclaimer. SmartLess is supported by Zip Recruiter.

Did you know that? If you're an employer who's hiring, the average cost per hire is $4,700. If you're investing that much money into each new hire, you want to get it right. So, what's the most effective way to find the best people for your roles? Zip Recruiter. See for yourself. Right now, you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com slash smartless and experience the value ziprecruiter brings to hiring.

Zip Recruiter lets you try before you commit. There's no cost to try Zipper Cruder. You can post jobs for free, so you can see for yourself how effective Zipper Cruder is at helping you hire. It's simple. Zipper Cruder helps you get hiring right. Four out of five employers who post on Zipper Cruder get a quality candidate within the first day.

See for yourself. Go to this exclusive web address to try Zipper Cruder, get a quality candidate within the first day, see for yourself. Go to this exclusive web address to try Zipper Cruder for free before you commit. Zipper Cruder.com slash smartless. Again, that's zipracruder.com slash SMA. RTL, ESS, Zipper Cruder, this smartest way to hire. All right, back to the show.

I have a question for Jason. Have you ever been in a situation as a director where we're talking about this? Where somebody where you're the person, you're the director is like, can I talk to you for a minute? If you're doing great. Listen, we are thinking about maybe, like have you ever had that experience and what do you do about that? Yeah, it's, well, I mean, I'm sure we've all been

part of these conversations where there's sort of a delicate tonal conversation because there is no bad, you know, but there are just different flavors, you know, you can have like a Mel Brooks type of comedy or you can have like a Woody Allen type of comedy. They're both tonally very, very different. And some actors, maybe their day players,

somebody that hasn't been exposed to the personal process or maybe not even read a full script. And they come in and they think they might be doing a Mel Brooks thing here, but actually the whole film has been going the Woody Allen direction. And so we need you to kind of tone it down, basically. Right. And those are delicate conversations. You don't want to insult an actor because then you get really bad stuff.

But I've done that before where I've come in and I've like had to talk where I go like, hey, listen, I want to make sure I'm not coming in at a different volume from everybody else. So I'm kind of doing this bit, but this bit, the grips aren't laughing at the bit I'm doing. So, yeah, yeah. Only because like Jay from like, I asked that because from like a casting standpoint, like, if you, if you're a big, big, big, big star, like a plus, you know, mega international superstar and they're not going to obviously audition or anything, and you cast them.

Yeah, everyone's guess. That's what you get. Yeah, that's, and that was my question, is you know, you're guessing now, in Willem's case, he's got the kind of talent where he can, he can be reactive to that, what he was saying, is that he can kind of sniff it out and make adjustments so that he isn't the same movie

and still doing a version of the character that's satisfying for him. You try. Well, I'm speaking of the last temptation of Christ, which I loved. You played Jesus. You played Jesus Christ. I was research on that. I played A. Jesus Christ, not Vod Jesus Christ.

You played A. Jesus and by the way, not your first time because right before that a lot of people thought that your character... Alias. Sergeant Alias was, right? There was always... Yeah, yeah. Which was cool. Both were great opportunities.

By the way, Sean, you got to know that I read this interview. This other interview we were talking about, Alias, Sergeant Alias, and they asked you about the Jesus thing, the comparison, the platoon, and you were like, well, I don't know if Jesus went in the jungle and shot people up before. So I don't know if that comparison is. I think that's a pretty good answer.

They both seem like tough shoots. Which set was more uncomfortable? The jungles or the arid desert? Listen, they were very different because of what my role was, but they were both great because they were full on. Both of them were extremely low budget movies. People don't expect that of last temptation of Christ, but that was made for a nickel. And both of them were about as far from Hollywood as you could get in terms of no trailers, no very little makeup, no, you know, you dressed yourself, you showed up and were in the jungle.

Are you showed up? You were in the desert. And they all had modest schedules and modest frills and you just shot away and both were full immersion so that always helps you because if you're in it you can't be out of it. Yeah, you find that more satisfying than when you go and then you go because you have made independent films you've made these these art house pictures with you worked with with some of them. If I read you guys the list of the directors that will have this work, it's mind-blowing career. I mean, so, that, I'm so ambious of all these people

that you've worked with and that they've gotten to work with you. But when you go and then you work on some huge, huge budget film where the money is spent that is just wasted. Like, you could make a movie for their catering budget every day, right? You know what I mean? Yeah, I see that and that bugs me, but I get a let it go because I say, you know, it's not my money and this is how they make these films. And, you know, I like being a part of that too.

And it does things that other movies don't do. Yeah. It gives you the opportunity to make less on a smaller film. You know, I've always had, for the most part, I feel more comfortable when I've got more involvement and not more control, but there's more collaboration. We're in bigger films, not always, but in bigger films, there's a tendency to have lots of cooks

and lots of concerns. And you just accept that, see what it is, and do the best you can and try to have fun. Speaking of big films in that way, and this is like one of the first, I don't know if you guys knew this. Well, I mean, you're barely in because they cut out your character, but you were in, and I didn't know this, you were in heaven's gate, man. Wow. Oh, really? And you shot him in like three months? Yeah.

And I was fired from it as well. No. No. Oh, you were? Yeah. After three months? After three months. Oh, my God.

You know, I was, I was a guy working in the theater and someone said, you should, should audition for this movie because they're looking for ethnic faces. Oh boy. And I remember the audition was, and I wasn't going up for stuff, I was just identified totally as being a downtown theater actor. You know, I had my ambitions, I, you know, when I heard that, I thought, cool, I'm going to check this out. So they asked for a monologue in English and a monologue in another language. I didn't, at that point, I didn't know any other languages.

So I asked a friend who was in town who was flemish to translate in Dutch. Well, you know, I don't know why. It was just, because he was in town. So I did it fanatically. I got the role, but the role was like a nonscripted part. There was a core of people that Chimino was gonna fold in the movie, because the idea was you'd see these people, you'd create a community so in the end, when they all die in this war, you'd feel a connection to it.

Not a bad idea. And it was interesting because, you know, the first day we, like, became a week behind because he kept on inventing things. And it was fun. I enjoyed it. You know, it was really, you were working with great actors. You were, he had just come off the Academy Award. There was a lot of excitement about the movie, the art direction was beautiful, all that. But it got really extreme, as far as, you know, getting dressed and then makeup and sitting in your trailer all day and not shooting for four days. This kind of thing.

Anyway, it became extreme. They saw, the studio saw it was a runway production and the pressure mounted. And I think by three months there was so much tension that Chimino was a little squirrely. And we were in a lighting setup all day. We weren't even going to shoot. We were in full costume in a lighting setup. And you had to raise your hand to go to the toilet like a little kid, you know, but you were there all day on your feet. And to kill time, you know, we talked to each other a little bit not loud, but we talked to each other a little bit, not loud, but we talked to each other. And a woman next to me told me a dirty joke, and I laughed. And Chimino heard my laugh and turned around and said, well, I'm step out. And that was it. No, it's, wow. That's like, I always,

so you're basically doing stand-in, where you're doing your own stand-in work, yeah? Oh, yeah. Because they were lighting the shot. But good with that, you know what? I always do. But it's a very hard thing to do well. It's a real talent to stand there, stared in other actor's face, not say a word, don't play on your phone, stand still,

so that they can like the shot for a half an hour. It's a lot of discipline. I really admire that there is. I always stand in for myself and I must also say, and I'm bragging here, I don't ever bring a phone to that. Really? Wow. Not allowed.

Not allowed. Takes you out. Yeah, I take you out for sure. So Willem, tell me, I have to, I always ask people who come on that, I have a theater background. Do you have a theater nightmare story that we would love? I have tons of them, something that went horribly wrong,

something that you'll never forget. Man, this is the story of the Worcester group. I mean, it was exciting, but we always had lots of problems and then with touring and I think, I'm trying to thank so many, so many. I think we did one burlesque. My partner at the time was the director,

and she, her father died. And we stopped work on a piece and needed to do something light and easy. So we decided to do a dance piece piece which we called a record album interpretation. And we took an old Hawaiian record from the 50s, really coronate, you know, Hawaiian music. And we got some grass skirts and some lays and someone painted a backdrop. And we invented these dances. We just made them up. and we'd do the dances to this music, you know, and between a woman elegantly dressed

with give a little instruction, you know, to give it a cultural context. Well anyway, the gag was to make it stick under our grass skirts. We weren't wearing anything. And also it was two men and a woman, and she was also not wearing anything and bare-breasted. Well, we did this show. It was very popular.

Sure. It was a little chamber piece, but very popular. And at the time, someone said, would you come and do like one number at a party? And they offered us like, I can't remember like a thousand bucks a piece and at that time we're all really poor that was like wow yeah we can do that. So we went to this party you know they had dressed us we got dressed in like the toilet and then we came out without the set

only with the music and with our non costumescostumes. And we did the stance, you know? And they started throwing singles at you. At the end, yeah, people started coming up and saying, okay, let's go, come with me. They thought we were like a stripper, Graham, and then some, not wow. That's his miracle. But did you, Willem, did you, you've been living in Europe for a number of years now?

Yeah, I still keep a place in New York, but yeah. It really depends on work, but where I... Are you in Europe now? Italy. In Italy. That's where you live? Oh, wow. Yeah.

What part? North or South? Rome. Oh. Wow. So then where you live. Oh wow. Yeah. What part? North or South? Rome. Oh wow. So then you know Italian. You speak Italian? Yes, I do better. Yeah. How long have you been living? Not well enough. Everybody gets the six-year-old version of me when I speak Italian. How long you've been living in Rome? Well, to be fair, I've had a place here for 20 years and I'm married on Italian and we've been going back and forth for 20 years. But just lately, I seem to spend more time in Italy because I've been working more abroad, even on American movies. I mean, people shoot a lot outside of the country and those seem to be the movies I end up on.

Yeah. Yeah, well, that makes sense to me, but I don't know why. But also, I guess my question is, and it also, if somebody says to me, Willem the foe lives in Rome, I go, right, that makes sense to me. Of course. And because, and I think that you have this, I don't know, there's something very, you have a progressive sort of sensibility

about you sort of artistically. And I wonder, how do you feel as an American living over there? Do you notice a difference? Do you feel a sense of more calm when you're in Europe versus here? or vice versa? I don't know. I mean, I'm forever a Wisconsin boy, you know, you can't lose that, you know, you can't even if you want to. Except they have they've got to have better cheese in Italy. So yeah, it's a tight fight.

Dude, are you start, are you guys gonna start a war with Wisconsin? What are you doing? No, no, no. Let's stop it right there. I don't know what you got. I'm one of those guys. Where were we? That blue one.

About living in Europe. About living in Europe, though. Listen, I've always spent a lot of time traveling because even with the Wester group, we spent a lot of time traveling, because even with the Wussel Group, we spent a lot of time touring, mostly internationally. So, I'm not even making a stake for, you know, a sensibility or I feel more comfortable. It's just my life.

That's where my family is, you know? I mean, my new family. And I mean, I have son who lives in the States, but, and I'm always happy have son who lives in the States, but and I'm always happy to come back to New York. I love New York, and I'm happy to work in the States. I don't know. I always feel a little bit like an immigrant here,

partly because of the language. But I like that because it's sort of humbling and you know, it keeps you away from yourself. It forces you to always be, you know, be in the place where you're not putting, you're not telling your story or you're not putting yourself forward. You got to hang back, you got to see how people do things and you've got to not be the best at stuff all the time. And you get used to that. And it opens up a different view for you. So I think that helps. So in some ways, I love it because once again, it's like a mask, it's something to hide behind. But also it takes a certain kind of ego pressure off and

you learn how to be an idiot. Like recently I just did something where well anytime I deal with like Italian workmen or something you know they defer to my wife because she speaks so much better than I do and I'm like the idiot. because she speaks so much better than I do. And I'm like the idiot. You know what I mean? And that gives you a different orientation and really helps you to re-know kind of cleanse yourself

of getting barren down on what you're doing, what your history is, you know, taking, you know, flattery, you know, you take the criticism as well as the flattery, you know, taking, you know, flattery, you know, you take the criticism as well as the flattery, you know, it helps you. It helps you because I don't think that's, that's, uh, naturally our nature. Yeah, folks would fall in all over you in the states. I'm sure you're very, very recognizable in the states. Are you, are you stopped in, in Europe as much as you are in the states? I'm better known internationally than I am. Are you?

Why? In the States. But you make something like Spider-Man movie, and it's so widely seen, that's true. For a lot of people, that's where you get recognized for. Well, your first name is actually William, and Willem was a nickname. Yeah, oh really?

And people are always curious about that, because they think it reveals something, you know? And like there's a time I was interviewed on a TV show, I can't remember, I think it was Jimmy Fallon or something, and this was brought up. And it gets lots of clicks, it gets lots of visits on that YouTube thing. People really are fascinated by that.

They're like, oh, you're busted. You've been telling us, you've got a fake name, you know? It's crazy. It's like the irony is, it was a nickname. And by the time it was time to put my name on a program, I thought, well, I don't feel like William. That sounds a little formal. It makes me sound, it sounds formal in English.

It's not who I am. And Billy, I, or Bill, I haven't used in years, and Willie, forget that, particularly in England, although I do love that name. So I say, okay, I'm Willem DeFoe, you know? So then to choose my birth name then, almost feels like a stage name. Yeah, right, right. Hey, Willem, let's just, sorry, go back to Bobby Proof for a second

because I love, well, at heart, and I love that character. Right, right. And it has one of my favorite scenes in film history actually is when, near the end, when Nick Cage is surrounded by all those guys and he lights his cigarette and he's like, what the fuck do you guys want?

Then they beat him up, right? And it's such a hilarious moment. But I love that. Talk to us a little bit about you're getting involved with that and with David and Bobby Peru. And by the way, it kind of goes back to Jason's point. How the fuck do you come up with that character, Bobby Peru, man? Like that's...

I didn't. I didn't. I mean, it was on the page, as you say. And also, I like that movie a lot. And Bobby Peru is a magical character for me. And there are some beautiful scenes in there. The writing was great, David was cool. And the thing was, I always say often that the best directors really give you a world,

and then you enter that world, and you know what you got to do. Well, and while that hard, it's like, I came, it's like not a big conversation about the costume. It's like, here's your costume Willem, and he gave it to me, you know, and I put it on and it was absolutely right. You know, the writings, language I related to, its placement is perfect. I did very little. And then I talk about this a lot too, but those teeth. When I read it, I just assumed they'd put some funk on my teeth. But when I saw David, he said,

well, we've got to send you to the dentist to make those teeth. And they made these dentures that didn't allow me to close my mouth. So, you know, you're always like this. You're a mouth-cream there. And that makes you immediately like, lascivious, like you're ready to suck on something, you know? Yeah, yeah. And you don't have to do much more.

And that was the key. You know, you're always looking for these triggers. And these triggers either hit something in your imagination or they open you up to something that you didn't know before. And then you go and you ride on that. They grabbed you by the neck, you know. That's not a decision. That's something you invest because it falls into your lap. So there was something magical about Bobby Prue. I mean, I don't want to get too crazy about it. No, please.

That was fun to do. It wasn't a lot of work, not a lot of conversation. Just hit the ground running, and I liked it a lot. Oh, that blows me away. We'll be right back. This episode is brought to you in part by Top Golf. It's golf. It's not golf, it's Topgolf. Here's the deal, you'll get clubs, balls, teas, turf, ball picker, upper, cart thing.

But you also get loud music, giant targets in their, in their giant fairway, giant TVs, in a handcrafted food and beverage menu, put all these things under one roof, got yourself a good time. So consider this, your formal invitation to grab the fam, few friends or some co-workers and come play around. Don't golf? The matter. Yes, golf can be kind of hard, but no one is not good at top golf.

Everyone can play top golf, even if you've never swung a club before and I keep telling this to Sean, the food they're alone should get you there. Because we'll go, we'll hit some bombs, you know, maybe hit them, I don't know, I don't want to get into numbers because I don't want to start getting a lot of feedback from people like, oh, you only hit it 310 or whatever it is, you know, that's what my three would. But the point is, Sean, while I'm doing that, Sean can be on that menu and just, and it'll be on me.

I'm happy to pay for his, which, by the way, is, you know, very generous if you knew how much he would eat at one of these plates, because the food is delicious and also drink. And he could also talk to other people if he wanted to, you know, strangers, because Sean loves strangers. By the way, it reminds me, literally,

all you gotta do is contact Sean for an autograph and he'll make you chicken fingers. And by an autograph, I mean, he wants your autograph, just approach him if you see him in an airport on the street, if you see him in his car. Just be like, hey, Sean, I know that you're pretending you don't wanna talk to me, but here I am. Anyway, Top Golf, it's a good time to go with your friends

and hit some balls and have some laughs and have some great music and have some great food and just hang out. Visit topgolf.com slash smartness to book a bay and come play around. That is topgolf.com slash smartness. I'm not afraid to tell you we get support from Audible. Okay, it's the home of storytelling. Now, I'm not, you know, a great reader.

Okay, I've for a bunch of reasons that I'm not going to bore you with. But so this Audible, these people, they're on to something here. All right, I may not read, but I will listen. Now, you're going to discover thousands of podcasts from popular favorites to exclusive new series. You're going to, you're going to find guided wellness programs with audible. You're going to find theatrical performance is comedy and exclusive audible originals from top celebrities, renowned experts and exciting new voices in audio.

The audible app makes it easy to listen anytime, anywhere while you're traveling, working out, walking, doing chores, you decide. All right? Now, for instance, this book, the Suttler Art of Not Giving A Fuck by Mark Manson, this is a potential key to life. It is the, you know, they talk about on the show,

the sexy indifference is an obnoxious term, but it's better said by Mark Manson here, or better heard on Audible. New members can try Audible for 30 days. Visit Audible.com, slash SmartLess, or text SmartLess to 500-500. That's Audible.com slash SmartLess or text smartless to 500 500 that's audible.com slash smartless or text smartless to 500-500 to try audible free for 30 days audible.com slash smartless

and now back to the show. Are you the type of actor that when you're walking around just living your daily life, you're keeping both eyes wide open to absorb certain caricatures or traits of interesting people and kind of put it in your back pocket and just like, I mean, I don't mean it is contrived is that, but more just like, no, listen, I probably was like that when I was younger. But now, I'm just trying so hard to be a better person. Sure, but a better person that that fades into it. Yes, and I don't think that those things are mutually exclusive in that it seems like you are, you love people, you love mankind, you think people are really interesting, and I'm social.

Right. And you're trying to always keep yourself kind of growing and what not. And as you said earlier, you're all all these parts are always a part of you. And so just by expanding you, you're widening your abilities and your spectrum of characters that you can play, the older you get in the question? Yeah, I think, you know, it's like I was at, I was doing a film in London and just the other day, and I went to the tape modern. I had some time off, I thought, what do I do, you know, today and I walked to the tape modern, you know, took me like an hour and a half

where I was staying. And I went there and there was an exhibit up and there was a thing about what's her name? Damn. Alice Neal. I paint my time using the people as evidence. Uh-huh. Yeah. And that was there was something good about that. And I think, you know, we're here as witnesses. We inhabit these things. They aren't us, you know, film television, these things where we come together and make these things, they're so collaborative

that, you know, you just, you just put it out there and it's a reflection of your experience. It's not even an explanation of your experience a lot of time. That's why I get crazy about interpretation sometimes. You know, be there to have it happen. It love to happen, Marcus Oralius, right? So that's what I like. And I do love people because, you know, they're all fighting this struggle that we all have in common. I think, you know, when I feel sweet and really compassionate, I really do believe our job is to walk each other home.

You know, that's what the story is here. So to be fair to you, Jason, your question about do I observe things? I don't like, I'm sorry if I was naughty about that. It was just like, I don't see like me the guy and say, hey, he's got a cool accent. I got to log that. Right, right. I'm taking it on because I'm, as a person, I'm taking him on.

Yeah. And I am, I am him, you know, I'm trying to imagine his life. He's lying him. You're experiencing him. Yeah. And that, I think that I think that's the fountain. That's the fountain. Do you watch what you do?

Some actors, incredibly talented actors, never do watch their films or their dailies or what not. I do, but I don't go back. I mean, I've watched them when they come out, you know, like, you know, when you have to do press for something. And you're also curious how things turned out, you know, because a lot of times you're not involved in the post. Yeah, exactly. And that was going to be my follow-up.

Sometimes you are. You give such a beautiful contribution to every film that you do. Is there, I won't ask you what your favorite film is or your favorite part is, but I will ask you which film that you've done do you feel that your contribution happened to slot in once you saw the finished product. A lot of the execution you weren't there for, as the director finished this thing up later, that you were most excited about like, oh, that ended up fitting in a really satisfying way. To me as an audience member.

That's hard, because, yeah, it's a good question, but that's hard only because when I see the movie that I'm in, I can't watch it. I mean, I do watch it, but it's like watching a home movie. It's an association of making the movie. It always happens to me. It's very rare. I will say there are exceptions.

Like I recently saw poor things, this Yorgos Lentham movie. That isn't out yet. What a great filmmaker he is. And that's one of the few times I saw the movie. And maybe it's because I have prosthetics and all that, where I didn't see myself. And I didn't remember because there's a lot of fantastical stuff in post on. And that was pretty interesting to watch this movie, which I love, and to feel like I was watching someone else. That's quite rare. Normally, when I watch, I say, oh, God, I remember that day. So, and so we had a fight or that lunch was terrible.

Or, you know, we ran really late that night. Or, you know, that day player, K-Man, and I had a nervous breakdown. You know, these are the things you remember. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I would imagine Spider-Man has the same type of thing where you can't really see what's going on around you

because it comes in later. Is there a satisfaction in seeing that? Oh, that's cool. I was pretending to see that and they made me not a liar by making that monster super big and matched my reaction. It's true. You know. It's true.

Yeah. That's a special. It's weird that you say that because don't you guys do that too when you watch something you go like, oh, I remember I had a head cold that day and I could barely, I was blowing my nose between takes. And I remember doing this thing where this is about 10 years ago, I was doing one of those Ninja Turtle movies and we had, I had the runs, I had like a stomach virus. And the director says, yeah, great, I've never told this story. And the director says, yeah, great. I've never told this to and the director says, we're doing reshoots. And I had to run with Megan Fox. We had to run across this parking lot. And the guys like, okay, you're going to jump out of the

thing and you guys got to run across the parking lot. And I said, and I go, man, I'm not running anywhere. I said, if I'm in my pants, I said, I can barely, and we both had it. And I said, if I move from this thing, it's, it's, it's over. I'm back on the trees on these pants. Yeah. Do we need quadruples on the pants here, dude? So I go, I can get out of the van and I can talk here and I can maybe slowly walk and you got to fucking cover me. You can't even get a wide because you can't see how I'm walking. Otherwise, you're going to know that I'm, you know what I mean? Yeah, but those are the things I remember when I watch it I go. Oh, that was when I had the runs diarrhea My advice always keep a bucket close by nice

I'd like to stay on the set Maybe you can cut that out. Get loose. Get loose. Get loose. By the way, I love it. And you know, Will and we have a mutual friend who's a big friend of the podcast who said, I said, you know, he's like, you got to get Will and he's Bradley.

Oh, Bradley, sure. We had a good time. And I kept in touch with him and we've seen each other since and he's always said something interesting to say or interesting to show where he loves you He loves you, man. Oh, we had a good time and yeah, I enjoy seeing him. What did you what did you? You made this you made a few movies with Wes Anderson, right? And now you're in this asteroid city But really a cameo. I mean, that's not an apology. It's just a fact. Yeah, okay.

And explanation, an explanation, if you will. But what is that relationship with, with notwithstanding just being a cameo, with Wes Anderson in his films and. You know, I it started my first film. I think I've made five with him and you know, in varying degrees of. You know, some are bigger roles, some are cameos, but it started with life aquatic. Yeah, and that actually is what brought me to Rome because I met my wife on that shoot. Oh wow. In Rome. So that kind of changed my life. But life aquatic was so much fun. And it was

basically kind of like heaven's gate in the fact that it was a role that was barely scripted. Well it was scripted, but he kept on sliding things, me enter things, and then we kind of inventing stuff. And that was really, really fun. And I like life aquatic a lot. It's me too. I like life aquatic. It's kind of slippery for a long, long, for a lot of the movie. But at the end, surprisingly, it has an emotional effect.

I think that sneaks up on you, and I love when you're able to do that in a movie. Something where you think, ah, this is fun, it's goofy, you know, you're kind of following it, and then it slaps you across the face. Or really, you know, lets you know what all that led up to.

That's very cool. So I worked with Mon Life Aquatic, you know, all that led up to. That's very cool. So I worked with him on life aquatic, you know, just to dork him. So when you have a good thing, you know, whether it's Robert Eggers or Abel Farah or Paul Shader, when you have a good thing, you know, at the end. I just worked with Tim Burton, you know,

and you say, hey, that was fun. Let's do it again and call you again. Do you have, we talk about this all the time, the three of us do, and on the show and stuff. Do you have like goals in mind, when I mean goals, I mean stuff that you go, like, I wanna go and do something like this. I wanna work on a project like this,

or not so much. No, huh? No, you know, and why don't I say directors are very important? Because it's probably why I'm not a director, okay? And that is I like going towards something. I don't like having an idea and then I want to accomplish it, you know? I like being put in a situation and I have to flirt, punch, kick, slide my way out of it.

Because I think for me, that suits me. I mean, I like doing that. But if you say, oh, you know, I'd really like to play a union organizer. I'd really like to play Joe Stalin. I'd really like to play, you know, Reverend Moan or something. You know, it kind of finished completely itself because you have this idea and it's like your idea. I suppose you could pursue it and it would change. But I'd rather, I really like attaching myself

to someone else's idea. And then it's like somehow they take the responsibility and you can be irresponsible as an actor. You're terrifically responsible to performing because you wanna be there, anything else just doesn't work. It's an opportunity. It's a blessing to be able to be given this situation where you have this super supercharged consciousness you know because when you're performing in the best of situations you're more alive than you are in life

sometimes. It's sad but you know what I'm talking about. All of you know what I'm talking about. No, of course. So you look for those situations and to get those situations, I don't think you can set yourself up. You've got to be surprised and you've got to work from a place of not knowing initially, and then you go towards something, and then you learn towards something and then you learn something and that changes how you think and that that change of thinking opens your door to like be born as a no person and then you apply that energy, that kind of mind-blowing

noonness to what you're doing and if all the stars align and if everything's correct and you don't get distracted or you don't shoot yourself in the floor or you don't get fully yourself and all these little temptations and things to fuck you up, then you get something, you know? And is it something to sell? Is it something that people love? You don't know, but I always trust that I'm not a Martian. So on somewhere, if I'm something's happening to me and it's transparent enough that someone can identify with it or can go with me on that trip, you know? Then it's worth doing.

It's worth doing. Sean, you can't believe the disappointment on Sean's face when he found out you weren't a Martian. Because he just loves Sean's life. He loves outer space. Well, when you're not doing your work, your acting work, what is your next favorite thing to do? Do you have a hobby that you're super passionate about?

I don't have hobbies. I feel like I'm always preparing for something. I try to be. I have certain disciplines that I do daily, you know? And also, I have a farm now. So, I never had animals or pets or anything like that. But now I have lots of animals and I grow my own food. So that's so true. Wow. So that's a big deal. So it marries it marries that kind of the simple tasks of of doing like chores and and cultivating things and eating out of your own place. Yeah. Are you, is that in Italy that you're doing that? Yeah, yeah. But the animals are a big deal. And we don't eat them because I'm basically a vegetarian. And we keep them.

And sometimes I check myself on this. This is really correct. But we try to give them a good life. And we try to enjoy them. And they're a beautiful reminder, you know, they connect you to nature. And when you can be connected to nature, I think you can be connected to things beyond this life. Yeah. Yeah. Amen. What's your favorite thing to do with the with the animals? Are you milking cows? Are you grabbing eggs from chickens? I don't milk cows.

How are you milking cows? Are you grabbing eggs from chickens? I don't milk cows. I do take care of chickens. I've got alpacas, and they're the sweetest animals in the world. But it's challenging because they're a little delicate. Like today, I was nursing one who was sick, and I was very... I worry more about these animals, sounds messed up, and this is why I never had animals before, and I thought people that were so attached to their animals were sick. But I worry so much about them. You know, I probably worry about them more than I did about my children, because they can't talk to you. Right. And you know, when you see that animal suffering and you look in their eyes, you. Right. And you know, when you see that animal suffering and you look in their eyes,

and you've got a relationship with them there, you know, you feed them, you put them in when the weather's loud so you take them out, you know, in the morning, you've got a relationship. They're dependent on you, but it's not like, you know, a sloppy dog that just gives you love unconditionally. These like these alpacas are very regal and they're they're very sensitive and they're gorgeous. But sometimes I wonder, is this, you know, maybe they should just be in the wild. But I try to give them a good life. Could be hostile out there though. That's true. That's true. And it can be hostile here. We've got, we've got wolves. We've got Foxes. We've got lots of boars. You know stuff happens the other day. Fox took five of my chickens. I'm gonna work with these two boars every day. Hey listen.

I spelled a little differently. Willem, I know, Willem. You know, I've never told anybody about the farm. I've really laid low on that. So I like the way you speak about it. It sounds wonderful. It doesn't sound like it's in Braggie or anything. Okay. No, it's awesome. Well, what I was going to say was,

and I was going to say this earlier, but it really came out in that thing as, I like the way that you talk about, it's kind of like the way that you talk about working on something or a character or the way you break it down or not break it down or just allow yourself to me. It's kind of like that's your lesson that you bring to your life. You seem like you're really honest with yourself about or you're hold yourself accountable

often, the way that you talk about it. And I like that. I respond to that. I like that idea of being honest with you. Well, hang on. I got a guess. I know we're almost finished, but hang on. I hope it's not a paca.

Please be honest. Hey, tail. You want to see a beautiful dog? Just real quick. Yeah, I love this dog. Yeah. Can you see him? Tail. Oh, wow.

He's a rescue Greyhound. Don't be eating that. He's a rescue Greyhound for the track. He finished coming of, baby. He's a rescue Greyhound for the track. He finished coming up, baby. He's a sweet dog. You know how people look like their dogs? Uh-huh. Yeah.

Oh, he's so beautiful. Tell your camera down a little bit, well, I'm so we can see the dog a little bit. What's that dog's name? Tail. Like, T-E-O. Like, excuse me, God. The dog seems very serene.

Ah, he's had a tough life when he arrived. You know, obviously they don't treat them so well at the track because the bottom line is they've got to run, run, run, run, run. And now he's, they're like cats, really. They sleep a lot. When they go, they go, but most of the time, and they're very, they're very looph. They time. And they're very, they're very loof.

They aren't sloppy, you know, they're very regal. Wow. Anyway. Man, I tell you, I tell you what, Willem, we could, I can just talk to you. The more I talk to you, the more I want to talk to you. I've been a, I've been a such a fan of yours for so long. And I just, I love everything you do.

Like, I can just keep doing it. And you're so authentic. And, just I love everything you do and just keep doing it. And you're so authentic. And I'm nothing to say other than just thank you for doing this and spending this time with us. Yeah, sure. I hope, yeah, I hope it comes off kind of easy and warm. Like it was a great conversation. Yeah.

When you come when you come to the States again, we'll swap more theater stories. All right. I think I'm going to be there in September because we're going to do some promotion for this poor things that comes out, which is, I can't wait to see that. I can't wait to see that.

He's such a great director. He's fantastic. And I worked with him a second time since. Oh, yeah. Another film, yeah, called And. And that was funny because we were shooting in New Orleans and like the Spider-Man crowd would come up and say, hey, what are you doing here?

And I'd say, I'm making a film. And they'd say, yeah, what's it called? Assuming, they assume maybe I only make a film every five years in it's Spider-Man. Right, right. So they're like, what's it called? And I say, and, and they're like, yeah, yeah, but what's it called? Yeah, exactly.

And they're like, no, no other questions. Just that. This goes on and on and on. So finally, I learned, you know, yeah, I'm shooting a film here. What's it called? Untitled. Yeah, yeah. This is film here. What's it called? Untitled. Yeah

Man, well again, thank you Will and what an honor and what would it treat to talk to you good nice nice talking to you And I listen to a couple of your podcasts and I really enjoyed it. Well, thanks. We enjoyed you Yeah, so keep up the good work and keep up your good work. Okay. Thanks. Well, thank you, buddy Cool. Yeah, thanks. Thank you, buddy. Cool. Yeah. Bye. Bye. Wow. Wow. Yeah, that's a nice, a nice full person guest there.

Yeah, nice full person. Everything I was really especially at the end there. I started to realize that like when we he were interrupted by Theo, the track dog. But all jokes aside, Willem is just one of those guys who just seems so authentic and hearing him talk about his life. And what I was gonna say is like,

he's authentic in talking about his thing, but he's also just feels like he's constantly searching for or being honest about who he is as a person. Yeah. And kind of holding himself accountable. Did you guys get that sense at all? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and it seems like a lot about our business, our city,

our country even. It's like a little bit at odds with the journey that he's on about authenticity. Yeah. And which kind of runs also counter to what he does for a living, which is pretending to be someone else. So I mean, if we're going to do another hour on that, I would have asked him, you know, like, it does he battle with that about trying to really be true to himself

and really participate and be open and authentic. And yet his profession is convincingly being somebody completely other than himself. And also interesting like, yeah, living Italy and New York and Los Angeles, like wherever I couldn't do it. I have to like, what do you mean you couldn't do it? You're doing it. No, but I can't like just go living in another country and be okay with that and then come back here.

You're up or you sighed instead of, a fork. You're up or you sighed? I'm not a fork. You're up or you sighed. You're up or you sighed. I'm going to go to Del Monaco's and what's the name of that market over there? Instead of whole foods? That's tough.

Yeah, maybe guys, maybe when you come here, you can. You come to the city we can stop. Bye. Bye. Smile. we can stop. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. and artisanally handcrafted by Michael Grant Terry, Rob Armjarv, and Bennett Barberco. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Smart, less. This episode was recorded on June 29th. Our next episode will be out in a week wherever you listen to podcasts, or you can listen to it right now early on Amazon Music,

or early and ad-free by subscribing to Wondery Plus wherever you listen to podcasts, or you can listen to it right now, early on Amazon music, or early and ad-free by subscribing to Wondry Plus in Apple Podcasts or the Wondry app. It is every parent's nightmare when folding in South Jersey. The search is on for an 11-year-old Kate May County boy missing since yesterday afternoon. So far, searchers have found only his left sneaker near his home. It's hard to imagine losing a loved one, a wife, a husband, a child. For many, it's their biggest fear. Amarissa Jones, host of The Vanished, a podcast that tells the stories of often overlooked

and unsolved missing persons' cases. Every week, I dive into a new case, sharing the details of their mysterious disappearance, including interviews with family, friends, law enforcement, and even suspects in an effort to reveal the truth. And I'm proud to say that this podcast has aided in a number of arrests. It's important to me to remember the human behind the headline and help family members find their vanished loved one, or at least a sense of peace. Follow the vanished wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app.