Some More News - Even More News: We Are A Nation Of Truth??

Episode Date: March 1, 2024

Hi. Josie Duffy Rice joins Katy and Cody to discuss Thursday's massacre in Gaza, the self-immolation of Aaron Bushnell, and Taylor Lorenz's interview with LibsofTikTok creator Chaya Raichik, who was completely unable to defend any of her abhorrent views. Watch "Hope In The Struggle: The Josie Johnson Story" here: https://www.tpt.org/minnesota-experience/video/hope-in-the-struggle-the-josie-johnson-story-rmxhet/ And here's the full Taylor Lorenz interview with Chaya Raichik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL-40gDBRx0 MERCH: https://shop.somemorenews.com PATREON: https://patreon.com/somemorenews If you want to take ownership of your health, start with AG1. Try AG1 and get a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D3+K2 AND 5 free AG1 Travel Packs with your first purchase exclusively at https://drinkAG1.com/morenews. Check it outl Good things come in big packages at MeUndies. Get 20% off your first order, plus free shipping, at https://MeUndies.com/morenews. MeUndies—comfort from the outside in. Twitter: https://twitter.com/SomeMoreNews Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/SomeMoreNews/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SomeMoreNews/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@somemorenews

Hello and welcome back to even more news the first and only news podcast. My name is Katie Stoll. Thank you Katie Stoll for joining us once again and introducing the show once again. Hi, I'm Cody. I didn't prepare for this. It's the first one. No, really? How would I know what to do? It seemed so natural.

I'm shocked. It was great. Joining us once again also is writer, podcaster, and co-host of Crooked Media's What A Day, it's Josie Duffy Rice. Hi. Hi, Josie.

Oh, it does sound like a news podcast, but it's different. It's different. Well, we're both the only news podcast. Exactly. Yeah. And I'm not sure how that works, but it is true. It does. There are many, but there's only one.

But there are many. But there are many. Yeah. But there's many ones. But not are many. But there are many. Yeah. But there's many ones. But not the first and only one. Okay. Holidays. We have some holidays.

This actually is a holiday. It's February 29th, which is Leap Day. A holiday I absolutely always forget about because it doesn't happen all that often. Yeah. It's a rare one. But it's actually called – wait, Jonathan, okay, this is just our calendar's version of it. So February 29th is Leap Day, which I guess is not a holiday. It's just something we need to do to keep the sun.

Without this day, the sun would, who knows where it would be. But then because of that, on the national day calendar is a fake holiday called national time refund day where they're like you got an extra day use it to reclaim your time and do something you want to do which you can't because it's Thursday and so you have

you have to work you know what though that should be a thing you shouldn't have to work on leap day I agree it's a free day you agree. It's a free day. You're right. It's a free day. Although we are all here, so we might as well record. We might as well.

No, no, no, no, no. I mean, if this is all we release, this is all we release, people. It's fine. It's so rare. Like, give us a day. Give us a day. Give us a, like, do what you need to get done day. Yeah, I love that idea.

Well, right now I'm just collecting all of the national time refund days that I've had to work through. And I'm expecting that at the end at some point. It's going to take several weeks off. Several weeks off. To refund your time, yeah. To refund my time. I deserve it. Get out there, folks, and celebrate Leap Day.

I don't know that i fully understand the whole leap year thing i think i understand it okay for a second there i was like did i just out myself as being very ignorant or something okay but i think it's the only thing about science that i understand okay i'm pretty sure the year the earth the earth circuit actually does a full rotation in 365.25 days a year okay and so every four years we make up for the 0.25 by adding on an extra day yeah everything's a little off like our time and calendars and dates are like you know we do our best with the size of the earth and all the things that it does um so you have to add otherwise it would be like uh like a whole month off after like yeah a hundred or so years if we didn't do this yeah after a thousand years it would be like june and

january which it is already i mean it doesn't maybe maybe our maths are just off or something and that's what's going on no i don't mean that well it is that's why you have to adjust it josie okay we wanted to ask you uh to tell us a little bit about this documentary you appear in about your grandmother this is my favorite question i've ever gotten um minnesota public television did a documentary about my grandmother who is also named josie she's the third josie i'm the fifth josie and then i named my daughter josie so now there's it's some may say too many but it is very um annoying uh yeah you're trying it's like you can't really not like i couldn't really not name it you can't really you had to continue five yeah you can't

be the one where this tradition ends absolutely not also it's a great name it's one of those i appreciate that i hate it you've heard it so many times though you're just tired of hearing it i've heard it so many times it doesn't really feel like tired of hearing it. I've heard it so many times, but it doesn't really feel like my name. And, like, growing up, it was, like, my first name's Josie, my middle name's Helen. It's just, like, the oldest name. Like, I was, like, I'm 88 million years old. And now I am 88 million years old, so

it works better, you know? I never thought of Josie as an old person name, but that's because I didn't have older people with that name in my family i i did that did kind of change the game a little yeah whenever when everybody you know named josie was born in 1890 yeah yeah yeah but now it feels like a fresh name yeah no people are like it's very it's very back like there are a lot of... My daughter, like, when we go places,

I'm like, check her in and say, this is Josie. There are always, like, many other Josies. Oh, really? You never even had to suffer. You never even knew what it was. Yeah, it's cool now. It wasn't cool when I was a kid.

Seeing a lot of that, like, sort of, like, going back around, like, yeah, like, Ethel's and Ruth's and... Yeah, exactly. Oliver's, like, a lot of... Oh, so many names are back Maude is really bad um like I feel like I keep hearing names where I'm like I haven't heard that name in so long Lillian Evelyn anyway Lillian Evelyn this is not this is not the point of telling you

my grandmother turned it into me my name so this uh this documentary is not about names not about our names no okay no but my grandmother grew up in texas uh and moved to minnesota in the 50s and did a lot of civil rights work there and was a big um advocate for fair housing and voting rights and all sorts of kind of social justice issues in Minnesota. And so now she's 94. She has dementia. She's pretty still early stages of it. But, you know, like it's been really nice to have this thing that she like records all this history because some of it isn't forever anymore. Incredible. history because some of it's forever anymore yeah incredible what a gift for your for your whole family and the world because she sounds like such an incredible person she's great she's

awesome i see her a lot she's she's seen the documentary like seven times and she's always like i've never seen that you have a lot a lot yeah she's still in kind of the phase of dementia where it's like kind of funny because she's fine yeah it's the little things right it's not necessarily the agitation and all that yeah exactly and she's still and she's very i mean she's 94 like she's 94 she's only coming out although it's late onset she's had a long incredible life it is hard the journey that you're on and i know that saying oh I'm sorry doesn't help anything but I'm empathizing I appreciate it it's but absolutely treasure this and treasure all these moments because that's yeah fucking right it's really lucky it's it's funny too like my kids are

like kind of think she's just dumb because she asked the same thing over and over yeah you know and they're six and three and they're sort of like why is gv asking this over and over again and i'm like we like watched a documentary and you could see my son being like whoa she like you know she lived a whole life yeah right yeah and they can also see the difference they can understand and have that yeah uh with when i was around their age my dad's aunt who raised him, so my grandmother had dementia and moved in with us. And it was a strange thing. But that was it. Sharing stories and pictures and getting glimpses of the person.

And I'm like, oh, this is the person that I know. So they were, yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And the living with. I mean, that's got to be really.

It's a lot harder on my parents, obviously, because there's a lot of like you don't want to go outside you don't and she's like living with them and that's really hard but for me it's I mean she's still doing pretty well all things considered and I think she really appreciated having that documentary and it it meant a lot um it means a lot to us to kind of have that recorded and it's also just a reminder and then I'll talk about this is a reminder of like how not long ago so much of this was yeah like so much of the conversation the political conversation around everything is like just has no kind of sense of time like it's people just i'm like this was yesterday like this was like yesterday you know the older i get the more i feel that i think because when you're younger, everything that's old feels old, including just your parents.

And now that we are our parents' age, you're like, no, wait, I'm a baby, and I can see how much has happened in just my life. And you have the perspective. It is so recent. It's shocking. It's shocking it's shocking and I think you know it's also a reminder of just like how cyclic so much of the stuff is so many of the conversations we're having now she was having then you know it's like which I think is both reassuring in a way of like none of this is new and also depressing in a way of like none of this is new um but yeah really grateful and thank you guys for

asking i'll just also say like how impressive that your whole family seems to be carrying this torch for progressivism in general and more broadly that's a testament to raising kids in these environments where you talk about politics and they grow up to be good citizens yeah I it's I am very I feel like we really lucked out I have my cousin my sister owns a bookstore here my cousin like does this work and we really learned from my grandmother a lot for sure and there was definitely a tone of our growing up that was like you don't get to just do you don't get to just enjoy yourself yeah you know um but it's it's so much of it is her and you know i'm i'm grateful i'm grateful she's 94 years and that's a big deal you know i'm grateful for her too yeah thank you thank you thank you guys

before we move on i want to say her name is. Josie Johnson, and the movie is called Hope in the Struggle, the Josie Johnson story. And we'll put the link in the description if people want to watch it. Yes, thank you. Good call, Jonathan. By the way, also Josie Johnson is a better Josie name than Josie Duffy. Josie Duffy doesn't work. Josie Johnson sounds cooler. Two Js.

Josie Johnson is a killer name. It's so good. It reminds me of Junie B. Jones, which I was too old to read, but my little sister would read the Junie B. Jones books. I'm like, that's a cool name. It is a cool name. Maybe Josie Duffy. But Josie Duffy is still very cool. It's solid. The cadence is very solid.

You guys are really nice, but don't tell my mom that you feel that way because i am still really rubbing it in that i hate my name and i need it to like you know well like i've gotten absolutely don't let her listen to this episode have her skip to this part what a stupid name you have josey thank you thank you for telling the truth please Please tell your mom that woof. Bummer. Normally, I would never insult a mom like this. But come on. But this is the one time I will.

Mom, you have to go to 1235 of this podcast right before the ad. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Well, I guess here's an ad. Tippy tap tap, putting on my ad shoes. Do do do do do, tap to tap tap. That's me tapping. Boy, gosh and heck, taking care of your health isn't always easy, but it should at least be simple.

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Tippy tap. Okay. All right. Well, now we've got to talk about some news and we were just laughing but this is not something to laugh about i'm gonna throw to jonathan to set this up we're gonna congratulations for getting to yeah um we this morning uh thursday morning uh we saw the news that at least 100 people were killed and more than 700 injured after Israeli forces opened fire on Palestinians in Gaza who were waiting for food aid. Still details coming out as we're recording here. waiting for aid in Gaza were surrounding some of the trucks as they were coming in when Israeli tanks, Israeli snipers fired at them and Israeli tanks fired shells. These are, you know, people who are starving and have been, are desperate for any aid.

Multiple news organizations, including CNN and the new york times described the scene as chaotic um which i'm sure it was but also you know the the first bit of news you're seeing about this is always like well at a chaotic incident many people were killed in a skirmish where uh israeli forces open fire so violent adjacent event yeah yeah so that was one of those this morning um and which president joe biden says is going to potentially hinder um the the ability to agree to a ceasefire which he had previously said would happen by monday while eating an ice cream cone yes just adding that in yeah if we want to talk about the biden thing real quick or skip over it or like is it it's unimportant but it's still so weird to me the flippant way the like it's unfortunate that he was filming a seth meyers bit i guess

um and was asked this question while doing the seth meyers bit eating ice cream but it's very unsettling seeing a president like casually eating ice cream and then talking about these serious issues uh and i don't know it bothers me i do I agree. I don't want to skip over it. I also don't want to skip over everything we just discussed, but I think that's a very important point. It was unsettling to see. It felt very flippant. Just put it down if you're going to take that question. I don't know.

Or take the question after you're done filming the bit. Yeah, that would be better. I feel like there's a weird thing where we can't like it constantly feels like people can't admit the thing we're seeing like if i'm eating ice cream and someone asks me and i'm gonna be like this is a terrible time to answer your question but here's what i hope you know yeah yeah you can still answer it while sort of like at least acknowledging that like you're aware that this is a weird like we're talking about like so much death and destruction um and we're just having a little having a little ice cream um and you can I don't know he could it's just the idea of him having a little treat while discussing the thousands of children that are being killed and the massive, you know, just, I mean, where do I begin? All of the destruction and the starvation and the appalling reality.

While filming like a little bit for a comedy show. It's not good. But circling back to this, this is something that kind of took my breath away this morning. And I get it. Yes, there was a stampede of people that were starving. And so you're going to be opening fire on them? I don't... I honestly don't have the words.

I mean, that's the thing. If a rock is thrown... I mean, it happens the thing that if a rock is thrown, I mean, we, you know, it happens at like American protests too, but like a rock is thrown and then the tear gas comes out or in this case, the real bullets come out. It's not necessarily like they're looking for an excuse, but there's so many scenarios like this where it does seem like just any excuse for this kind of response. If you're have a stampede of some kind like that, that's not going to help the chaos. If you have a stampede of some kind like that, that's not going to help the chaos. It's true. It's like so much of American policing culture and American military culture where you're taught that your life is the one at risk at every second, even though just logically speaking,

it's the opposite. Other people are more reason to be scared of you than vice versa. And it just results in so much bad decision making and i feel like it's part of the kind of like myth you know the mythology of these systems is like you're fighting the enemy and the enemy is going to get you any second so you have to be ready to react when like it's so much harder to be like we're actually like these people couldn't fight us if they want to do they haven't eaten in days like we're you know right right right they're literally starving we have all this firepower um it's this sort of like weird sort of internal conflict um and juxtaposition of having like because they're all like and this is american police too of just like

trained to sort of believe like you're constantly in danger actually you're gonna you can die at any moment you need to act fast but also you're a superhero and you can do whatever you want to and it's this like are you a superhero or are you like a small like scared little guy who when an acorn hits your car you open fire on a public street for uh for 20 seconds or whatever i don't know anything about these these soldiers in particular but it's also a reminder that like a lot of people who fight in the israeli army and really kind of in all most militaries are kids they're children yes like you're giving you're like sending 18 to 22 year olds who just have no judgment we know that they're like not good at life yet. Right. And they have no appreciation of human life really. And they just are not,

you're sending them into war and asking them to like use judgment. They don't have. Well, they don't. I think that probably makes the best soldier. Yeah. The one that doesn't. Yes.

Desired, you know, but you are completely correct. It's very like cruel. I mean, it's cruel to them too i mean absolutely but it's like we're like we know what happens when people come out for more we're we are like you know the america is helping a government screw up its own people as well because that's

what's going to happen i want to ask a little bit about this media framing here, because to a certain extent, I understand where CNN and the New York Times are coming from in the sense that a incident happens, they need to get something up on the website very quickly. authority says that this thing happened and then the other says well there was looting which created a stampede which created this so this is not a massacre this is an unfortunate incident and so i understand they're in that they have they're in a little bit of a pickle within an hour of something happening and being told about it but then as more details emerge it always seems like the language gets softer and on the new york times if you go to their like live kind of scroll where they're doing updates on this it says as hungry gazans crowd a convoy a crush of bodies israeli gunshots and chaos right where they just like put some commas in there and just say like a bunch of stuff these things happen and i think they do it knowing

they're gonna get criticized by people like us by saying like well why didn't you say what happened but i think they're like it's just easier that way because there's no footage well there is footage but there's not like direct footage that like is irrefutable that gives us this specific knowledge we're gonna get a lot of blowback in a bunch of different ways so that's why we have as as this the as the subject as hungry gossens crowded a convoy all this other stuff just happened there were just gunshots yeah what did the gunshots do yeah it just feels like whatever the phrasing it should be culminating in that.

I mean, the most important thing is, yeah, the gunshots that killed people. Part of it, too, is like you can just say what happened. If you don't know why it happened, you don't have to tell us yet. Just tell us. A hundred people died. We can assume it was chaotic. assume it was chaotic but also it's very hard to imagine a misunderstanding that where a hundred people like reasonably die in a misunderstanding just doesn't make any sense it's actually not that easy to kill a hundred people like it takes a minute it's a lot of people it's a lot of people

most of the time those people are probably running in the other direction like hungry people yeah there's a weird thing that often happens american press especially when we're talking about other countries and like military action where like everybody abandons their own understanding of how humans operate it's like people in palestine are like people here if the gun starts going off they're probably going to run away from the gunshots yes probably not yeah of like, there's no way you killed 100 people thinking all 100 of those people,

like, it doesn't make any sense. It just doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make sense. Also, you know, there's a stampede, a crush of people.

First off, why is there a stampede? Why is there a crush of people? Right. Very important context here. But, you could make a loud sound. You could fire into the air maybe to

kind of startle people to break up you know there's lots of tactics to break up chaos chaotic scenes like that other than firing of course totally right at people specifically well it's going to make more chaos if you were piling up and stampeding you're going to make more chaos. If people are piling up and stampeding, you're going to create more bodies on the ground. That's very counterintuitive. Again, it's like that thing. It's like, it just seems like always Can you loot humanitarian aid if it's for you? I mean, I suppose they want to hand it out in an orderly fashion. Sure. And hungry people are going to crowd the truck and try to get on there and get stuff. But I'm not sure you could call it looting if it's... If you're there to do that, do you think shooting those people is going to get them food?

Just the idea of calling it looting is like, mean complete malpractice it's crazy to like it's like you think of looting it's like stealing televisions from best buyers and like it's right what do you mean looting like you think this isn't some company's property yeah and like we're not people are not just trying to like get something for free they're starving and they can't like we know that so what are we what is the language we're using here it's so crazy well that is specifically an israeli official describing it as looting well right and i'm not even saying that the new york times shouldn't include the statement from the israeli official of course they're gonna get the statement and yeah put it in quotes and give it yeah like right and and so they didn't do that they said uh crowd a convoy instead of looting so but i i just i don't know i think the the officials making the statements just think we're

stupid yes and that pisses me off so much why do you you think I'm so dumb? They don't think that you specifically, if enough people are dumb enough, then that can be a narrative that catches on. And that's all that matters. They don't have to convince everybody. They just have to convince some people, enough people to go be dumb about it online. Well, they don't even need to convince anybody.

It's just sort of like playing to like, if you already agree with this assessment, like in this scenario and you know you have your clear thought about this conflict then i they can say they were looting and you'll be like yep they were looting it's not it's just like you're already on board with the narrative so um they can do that and it's worked for so long um we've talked about this before but like i do feel like it's it works less now um because a lot of people can see uh actual reporting and look at the language and like i just feel like more people are aware of the little rhetorical games that are played and um looking out for them um

but doesn't do any good it's just nice some people are more aware we also this is what we had planned to talk about uh before seeing the news this morning um a senior airman in the air force on sunday 25 year old aaron bushnell set himself on fire outside the israeli embassy in washington dc in a live stream of the incident he said he would no longer be complicit in genocide and shouted free palestine as he burned and a police officer pointed a gun at him. He was transported to a local hospital and died seven hours later. I'm also interested in seeing what you all think about the way this is being talked about. There have been a lot of accusations, I think, in places like The Atlantic and Time Magazine suggesting that the left is valorizing

this person instead of having a deep, profound sadness about why it happened. about why it happened yeah i have complicated feelings about this and how it's being framed um and i don't have a clear answer for the question but i do have thoughts this was i mean i find that this was a very brave and profound uh act that he chose to do. I did have some worry about the glorification of it in some capacity and some of the way people are framing it, because I know how upset so many people are about this, but I don't actually judge the choice. I have a big issue with the way so many people are specifically saying that it's glorifying suicide and that he was probably mentally ill in some capacity or immediately going there it discredits you know what he was actually trying to do and say so like i said no specific answer to your question but a jumble of thoughts that i'm still kind of parsing out well let me read this quote from

graham wood in the atlantic uh and this is like the subhead to his article he writes the tendency to celebrate and encourage this behavior or even to be moved by it strikes me as deeply sick and i think there's a difference between celebrating and encouraging the behavior and being moved by it because self-immolations have been have are common in wartime not common like every day but they have been it's not like this is the first time even for this it's happened well right and I think to have some sort of a regard for what it takes to do that without wanting other people to do it I think there's a difference between being

moved by it and celebrating it I actually don't know anybody that's celebrating like everything about it is deeply tragic I don't think anybody is like that I've seen is like yeah i mean i've seen people like honoring and like sort of like praising in a way in like sort of what you're

talking about jonathan of like the what it takes to do something like that and to feel and believe something that deeply um is uh you know and people like sort of, um, you know, holding like vigils and things for him. I don't know if that's the same as like glorifying or valorizing this act and encouraging other people to do it. Um, in that same quote from, uh, Graham Wood,

Graham, Mr. Wood from the Atlantic. Um, uh, there's other part of that passage that I, that first one is, is I think very striking and odd.

He's talking about as willing to suffer this way, certainly demonstrated his determination and sincerity. It also showed his numbness to the suffering of others. What? That is so, what a weird, like assertion. It's just the opposite of that. Like, and to give context, he points out that since bought their Hamas burned people alive on October

7th, that there was a, this was an ironic act and that he was numb to the memory of that suffering is what he is suggesting. He says his cinders should inspire action, but the much larger piles of cinders of whole families in the Kfar Aza kibbutz somehow should not. This is logically incoherent. Like, put the kind of total immorality of it aside. Your subhead says being moved by someone's death. We should not be moved by this death, right? It's sick to

be moved by this death. And then later it's like the person who died wasn't affected by these other deaths sufficiently enough for you it just feels so evasive emotionally yeah absolutely you actually aren't allowed to care about this yeah it's like they're playing like an emotional referee and like you need to be feel this way about this and feel this way about this and feel this way about this and And if you don't, then like, I guess you're deeply sick is the phrase. It's actually kind of making it seem like if you care this passionately about Palestinian lives, then you don't care about Israeli is kind of the framing of it, which is so fucked up.

Also, I just have like a lot of questions. I'm like, so does that mean if I said it was related to October 7th do I not care about other people have burnt like like no death is more or less important than another death right and like the fact that this person has but but like objectively but from a policy standpoint some deaths were like complicit in if you're a u.s marine and some you're not and some like there are just so many kind of like layers to this where i'm like this again feels

like an attempt to to justify the writer's own like uncomfortability with all of this right yeah yeah i mean you know this person you know in a way laid down their life for this cause they believe in. They continued fighting in the war and died. Right. They would have also laid down their life for the cause and their belief. Well, the reason he didn't take such drastic action after October 7th is because the United States military wasn't taking part in that. And the United, I mean, we are not sending troops over, but the United States apparatus is complicit in what is happening in Gaza.

And he seems to just like not understand that. That's what I feel so frustrated about by so much of the framing is like, well, why aren't why aren't you calling on hamas to do this aren't you like i my tax dollars do not go to hamas right that we have established like hamas does not care what i call for because like i my i'm not complicit in any foreign policy involving hamas's decisions. There's no letter writing campaign to Hamas that's going to do anything. Like we are part of this. This is like,

like what? Yeah. Well, that's what, I mean, that's what, that's what he said. Like we're complicit.

He specifically said that it's, it's not a, it's not a mystery as to his motivations, but these kinds of pieces totally purposefully misinterpret that to add to the noise. I just find the reaction to be very odd, too. And I do want to – I've been wanting to look into this a little more and see the reactions to any other act like this. Yeah. uh act like this yeah um because i was i mean even there was a something that uh did this uh about climate change uh semi-recently too and i don't recall a bunch of people like

gathering together to say this is a mental health issue that we need to address and it's just very interesting that this is the one time i feel like i've ever seen that reaction to it um like even if it was like if somebody did like a hunger strike are you gonna frame that as like a month's long suicide because they're like like it's just the framing is so odd um and sudden um yeah yeah i agree with you completely related to that it feels like a gram wood like the Graham Wood piece. I'm like, you should sit with this. Why don't you sit with this for a few weeks and then decide how you... Like, this doesn't...

Your feelings about this don't make any sense. There's something else here. So just like, wait, you know? You don't always need to write something immediately and publish it immediately in a very large publication. You can sit with stuff. Yeah. I included this tweet here just because it really stuck with me this week. It's from at labor seller.

And they're reacting to the quote, the thing that people have been saying like, oh, self-immolation isn't the most strategic move. And they wrote, it's okay to take a five- minute break from analyzing the world so you can actually witness it. And I mean, yeah, that's the, the mm is exactly like what has kind of been rattling around in my head since I read that. And obviously this is a podcast. We like, our, this is our job is to like analyze stuff, but it does feel like there is this immediate need. We need like 10 op-eds about this right away. That's how you make your money. Instead of, yeah, they just like sitting in it and yeah.

But that's what's so difficult about this ecosystem and Twitter and the internet in general. And, you know, we get news really quickly, but also you have to respond immediately. You have to have and you get rewarded for being the first to the story. You get the most attention. And online, if you're quick, whoever's quickest and most, say, splashy with how you get your tweet out or whatever, then you're going to get the most attention to it. The other thing about it, too too is like everything is so binary. It's like, was he mentally ill or was this great or was this strategic or was it not? People are complicated. And the reason that people make decisions are complicated. And maybe the way you feel about them is complicated.

You know, like you probably should feel complicated about someone setting themselves on fire. You know, it shouldn't feel good and comfy. Yeah, it's messy. At the beginning of this section, we were talking about all this. And we're talking about the soldiers and how young so many soldiers are. And they sign up for service. Or, you know, if you're Israeli, there's mandatory service, but you're young. As you get older, you have more perspective, and you understand things differently. And you start to see the consequences of your actions. I feel bad for the soldiers firing on a bunch of starving children because I don't think they're going to feel good about that in 10 years. I think that Aaron, from what we know, left a Christian community and then became part of the military and he believed in what he wanted to do. He cared about – he obviously is very principled and moral. And now he has a hard time living with what he sees and what the reality is.

And it is complicated and messy. There's a bigger conversation to be had here in general, I think. And we get mired down into some of these details and instant reactions. Yeah, sort of use it for whatever political project you have going or whatever, like, little, you know, online slights you have perceived over the years from certain groups and stuff. I already see so many people like, look at, oh, he's such a tanky leftist. He was poisoned by all the leftists online. It's like, this is just, you're just mad from some conversation you had online and somebody, and like, you're using it to, to manufacture this thing instead of like that tweet says, just like witness this and like, think about it and feel, you know, complicated. I think, you know, I, I have some sympathy for people right now who are so unable to grapple with the choices Israel has made in Palestine. I think a lot of people had seen Israel in this very specific way and felt tied to it as part of their identity in a very specific way, in a way that I don't relate to as, like, from, like, the state. Like, I don't feel, like, tied to any state being good or bad, but like particularly my own. But like, I think it's really complicated.

Like I see that this must like this moment of this dynamic that people, lots of people knew existed in some level for a very long time for people who are kind of just coming to it. It must be really devastating. And it's probably in some ways easier, or it feels easier to do the mental gymnastics to be able to maintain this belief than it is to kind of grapple with maybe the state is a state. I mean, I think that that's pretty gracious, but also true. Yeah, I mean, this Yeah, every so much of this comes from that discomfort of seeing like the, the different conflicts and contradictions

and the reality sort of make itself clear and then you're uncomfortable because you had this other view of uh and belief system i've seen i've seen even seen people uh just straight up say like i i'm ashamed that i put i like gave israel the benefit of the doubt at the beginning of this. And, like, seeing it unfold and coming to that realization and just working through that discomfort to acknowledge, like, yeah, I shouldn't, I was wrong. And this is a horrific situation. If there's one thing I would love for the world, everybody to be able to learn is reflection and accountability or the ability to have those moments and those conversations. Because it's very difficult, it seems for people to be able

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This will be, well, I mean, it's lighter than the last story. There's still. I will tell everyone how light or dark it will be. Yes. You decide. Journalist Taylor Lorenz published a new article in the Washington Post this week called How Libs of TikTok Became a Powerful Presence in Oklahoma Schools. this week called how libs of tiktok became a powerful presence in oklahoma schools um and she interviewed libs of tiktok creator chaya ray chick for about an hour and then posted the entire uh video online and there's one clip from this video that i would love to play a portion of

that's being uh shared around a lot because i think you learn a lot about Chaya Ray chick from watching this. I've cut this. It's a little over a minute. So learn more than she did. If transgenderism doesn't exist, which it seems like you're, that's what you believe. What happens to all the people living happy lives as trans people?

Well, first of all, the whole trans is it's based on a lie. You can't change your, you can't change your gender. Okay. But so they can, they your gender. Okay, but... So they could go live their life.

I mean, I can't tell someone what to do in their house. Sounds like you do want to tell people what to do in their house. I never said that. So you're totally okay with people being trans, just not as long as they're in public. No, I never said that. They could... The whole thing is based off of a lie and i think that um the fact this lie cannot be mainstream in our in our society it's just it's a lie and what harm is it causing do you believe um i like the truth i like truth right but i'm saying what what's the what's the harm

of people expressing their gender identity differently than you believe it to be what harm are they causing um like i said we are a a um a nation of truth and i i seek the truth. Oh, it's painful. First off, I just need to commend Taylor. Taylor keeps her cool and is so good. It really is so funny how like we've been made to believe these people are, they must be like kind of smart. Thinkers at all. It's not even like, it's so wild to watch

because it's like, it's not like smart and dumb. It's just like, you haven't thought about this. Like you don't seem to actually think about this at all or care or like have an opinion on it yeah you also like didn't even do any prep at all you knew that this was gonna happen her prep was printing that shirt or whatever when i first Yeah, I know. It has Taylor's face on it. The clips get passed around. I thought that it was like an ambush. I thought that like Taylor like showed up and was like, I'm going to interview you right now. It was planned. Right.

It's so embarrassing for her. It is satisfying to see her face being like struggling to. She's not. There's nothing there. She didn't say anything yeah i mean you can see the sort of recognition of like i like i just saying i didn't say that over and over and over again well you didn't say anything say something you're not saying anything right and you are contradicting yourself with everything that you say. Oh, yeah. Well, that's the thing, too. The challenge.

The challenge. Like, so many of these people, if you do ask them, like, straightforwardly what they mean or what they intend by the meaning of their words, they can't address that because it's either they need to admit that they don't really feel strongly about it and they're doing it for like fame and money, whatever it is, or they're very, very hateful and want these people to not exist anymore. And they know they can't say that either. So when, you know, Taylor's like, well, it sounds like you are saying that you don't want people to like live how they want in their homes. Like I didn't say that. You need to say something because otherwise you, we seem, we're going to assume that you want these people to not exist anymore or you're a fraud.

Yeah. There's also just like, I mean, look, I find Matt Walsh to be like the most horrific person in the world. But I also find him to be consistent. I'm like, you are just consistently awful. You hate who you hate. He's a true believer. That's the thing. Yeah, you're pretty straightforward about the fact that you understand the terms of this war and you are waging them on real terms that are the exact opposite that I think the world should work.

But I can follow your train of thought. Whereas it's like, I'm like, you haven't even thought about you want to be in people's homes. You haven't thought about any of this. You're kind of following something that I guess is elevating you and you can make money and whatever. And so there is no sincerity. There is no, not a true believer um but your point

is very well taken josie of how we the way people talk about them like these are these intellectuals these thinkers these people that are experts in some way and she's not never has been what makes it extra alarming is that she's been appointed to the Oklahoma Library Media Advisory Committee to, you know. Weird, since she hasn't read a book. Right. A state she has visited once. Yeah. Right.

While they're sipping tea in Studio City, California. Right. Talking about how, yeah, the wokes are destroying our cities. Ma'am, you're in Studio City, California. Right. Talking about how, yeah, the Wokes are destroying our cities. Ma'am, you're in Studio City right now. I think that, like, I was thinking about this the other day, that we kind of grew up in this era of, like, the Karl Rove, like, Dick Cheney, beginning of like the Republican party is run by these like behind the scenes masterminds who like are so smart and they, you know, we have to beat them because they're so manipulative and smart. And it's like,

regardless of whether or not any of that was true, I, I don't know anything about Karl Rove personally, but I, that's not my impression, but it's like, that's not what's happening now like this is all vibes based oh 100% that's the thing yeah it's all just like

yeah vibes and hatred and uh like various grievances um and online stuff like that's the thing about sort of like you what you're talking about we're like yeah we're sort of told or made to believe that these people are like great thinkers or or thinking at all um but she's a poster that's what she does she just posts other people's things and it's like don't you hate this isn't doesn't this gross you out or whatever and so her preparation for this interview that she knew she was going to have was to print out a photo of tay of Taylor on her shirt because that's a meme. That's posting, right? She's like, oh, the internet's going to love this, but not recognizing

that she's going to be asked questions and she's going to look foolish even though she's doing the meme shirt or whatever. But it feels like nobody else recognizes that either. I'm like, not to give them any ideas, but I'm like, if you were evil and smart, wouldn't you be like, let's make sure this woman who's getting the most engagement of anybody in the, like on the right right now, like driving the most hatred towards like, let's make sure we know who she's talking to. Protect her at all costs.

Give her a list of talking points or something. Some media training. Well, right. Cause I could, I disagree with her on basically everything she says. I assume everything. And I could have, like, been interviewed by Taylor as Libs of TikTok and, like, given the basic, like, right-wing talking points better than she did. Like I could make the arguments that they make, even though like they're bullshit and illogical and like they're bad

arguments, but like, I know the phrases that they use. Like I could pick some things out and just blur them out and would look better than how she did. Right. Yeah. I mean,

it just feels so like, I'm like, we're a nation of truths. It's like, that's what you're, that's what that's like. Also, you know, a nation of truths it's like that's what you're that's what that's like also you know just like a nation of truth no we aren't since like she says some things in this video where it's like oh you the nation of truth she's like we weren't allowed to leave our

houses and that's what radicalized me and this vaccine has killed people i mean she goes into like you can predict everything that she says in this, even if you haven't watched the whole thing. She hits all of them. And, like, and then after saying, well, the vaccine's killed so many people. Anyway, we're a nation of truth, don't you know? Yeah, right. It just means nothing.

Well, words are meaningless. Meaningless. I feel like Chris Ruffo is trying to be like, I'm the smart one. I'm going to say what our whole strategy is. What we're going to do is we're going to take this thing, DEI, and we're going to connect it to this. It's going to poison. But if Karl Rove was doing stuff like that, he'd keep it to himself. He didn't want everyone to know.

And also, Karl Rove, I mean, I don't want to deify Carl Rove over here but like let's just say like some decent strategist decent at strategy evil and views would like be able I think to see that they are like waging culture wars to distract from this other thing whereas like it is a weird thing where I'm like you guys like really believe DEI is like causing you all these troubles that they're actually not and like you're not actually solving you're like screwing a whole bunch of people over you're racist obviously but it's not like you're like okay we're gonna like do this over here we're gonna make everybody look over there while we're doing this over here it's like that's just what

you're doing right right they're not distracting people with dei they're using it it's like actually their focus and like trans people like like and you know they could just feel i'm like what what is this strategy here hate mostly hate yeah right because i feel like there's so many just so many people in the the movement now or whatever and these big figures who like yeah they're gonna believe all the you know mrna made my blood trans or whatever um and they're they're going to spout that stuff off. And because they're just like, they're uncomfortable and they're full of hate and they, uh, do enjoy the spotlight and making money. Um,

and so like you don't have this other apparatus of like institutionalized, you know, uh, machinations. You just have like random fucking people and posters who got famous because x boosted them or whatever reason um right and the only media training they have is going on tucker carlson who's gonna ask them how they feel that day and that's it right so they're not gonna be prepared to answer any real conversation you know the other thing about this video that reminds you brought up chris rupo like when i first saw chris rufo on tv i was like oh like you are charmless you are annoying you're like weird like i wouldn't want to hang out with

you like you don't have a good personality in fact and like on twitter you can sound however because it's twitter but like it this was another reminder i was like oh you're you're not enjoyable. You're unpleasant. Unpleasant person. You're unpleasant. It's nice to have those reminders, though. They used to be like, who's the guy we want to have a beer with? And now it's like these weird, unpleasant people. Who are the worst people in the world to hang out with?

Would you not want to hang out for anything ever? Yeah, who's the very bottom of your list? Let's get that guy in charge. I could both agree with them politically, and I would be like, ugh, these are awful. And the internet makes you forget that. Yeah. There are people who, like, you would disagree with who you might get, like, you might like their personality and vice versa. And it just, this is a great example of, like, oh, it's so nice when someone I hate online, I also know I would hate him.

Oh, yeah. And it's like, oh, I was right about you very affirming it's the desantification of yes i was gonna say it's that that uh it's like the poster's dilemma like we all you know you want the attention you want the thing everything you get from posting but eventually you're gonna have to go on tv yeah yes and that's not gonna be fun for anybody better be able to back it up you better be able to smile without weirdly licking your teeth beforehand or right well however does santa's like to smile because it's like it can't last forever like it's just you only have so much content like you'll have a lot of content it's all the same vibe like it's all the same thing and like what's your plan like you can't even have a conversation like what are you gonna do next you know i'm

saying that as a journalist you're like giving it and that's you're giving yourself a pep talk yeah this what are you gonna last forever yeah no no what could possibly go wrong this was so fun having you here i really love being here with you guys let me know anytime I can come back. I'm always happy to be here. We will. Absolutely. We're going to keep holding you to that. I work at home alone. So I'm always around. We'll be your friend.

Please. Please be my friend. But also, can you tell our listeners where they can find you, promote anything you've got coming up, et cetera? Oh, boy. I'll just promote the last big thing I have. I have some stuff coming up, but not enough,

not in the near future. Okay. That's fair. Well, you'll come back when the next thing is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, you can find me on Twitter, sadly, um, and other social media as J Duffy race. I am no longer on Facebook, but that's pretty much the only thing I got off.

So yeah. Um, and, uh, I'm on what a day, uh, the only thing I got off so yeah and I'm on what a day the only news podcast the only other news podcast two days a week and I you can check me out there and I have another podcast called unreformed and that's a limited series

about a school in Alabama it includes no libs of TikTok although it does include some pretty conservative monsters from the old days but yeah I just read that down

yeah no they would I'm glad I'm those yeah those are the real quote-unquote thinkers yeah

yeah exactly thank you guys so much for having me thank you thanks to our listeners. And gosh, I know you know this, but I need to make sure that you hear it for me today.

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