Something Rhymes with Purple - Etiquette

Episode Date: November 15, 2022

Discover what your hands have to do with manners, how the typesetters minded their p’s and q’s, why Gyles wasn’t allowed to issue the Royal Pardon and why some greetings comes at face value.  �� Today, Susie and Gyles will be dissecting the language of formalities and etiquette where we will be taking a trip to court, making a few phone calls and wassailing throughout the evening.    Toodle Pip, Ciao, Adios, See ya, Sayonara!    We love hearing from you, find us @SomethingRhymes on Twitter and Facebook, @SomethingRhymesWith on Instagram or you can email us here: [e-mail]   We currently have 20% off at the SRwP official merchandise store, just head to: https://kontraband.shop/collections/something-rhymes-with-purple  Want even more purple, people? Join the Purple Plus Club by clicking the banner in Apple podcasts or head to purpleplusclub.com to listen on other platforms'   Don’t forget that you can join us in person at our upcoming tour, tap the link to find tickets: www.somethingrhymeswithpurple.com    Enjoy Susie’s Trio for the week:  Nudiustertian: the day before yesterday.   Quomodocuncquize: to make money any way you can.  Williwaw: a sudden violent squall from the mountains.  Gyles reads ‘Who Has Seen the Wind?’ by Christina Rossetti    Who has seen the wind?  Neither I nor you:  But when the leaves hang trembling,  The wind is passing through.   Who has seen the wind?  Neither you nor I:  But when the trees bow down their heads,  The wind is passing by   A Somethin’ Else & Sony Music Entertainment production.   Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts   To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail]  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up y'all it's your man Mark Strong Strizzy and your girl Jem the Jem of all Jems and we're hosting Olympic FOMO your essential recap podcast of the 2024 Olympic Games in 20 minutes or less every day we'll be going behind the scenes for all the wins

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Something else. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. dozens of times, possibly hundreds of times over the years. And I came across a very intriguing survey recently, because I'm sure when I see you, I say, hello, Susie. I might say, hi, Susie. But I saw this survey that had been visited a lot of people and asked hundreds of people, I can't remember how many thousand it was, what their words of greeting were. And the top 10 seemed to be, hi, hello, how are you? you how do you do and then down at 17th i noticed there's a word of greeting piss off apparently people say that to one another when they meet hi really it's off yeah it's i've never heard that it's i think known as jocular i don't think they mean piss off i think i think so too yeah but it was way down the list before we get going because we are going to talk about greetings and thank yous and goodbyes,

we should explain that what people were here today is a bit of the show that we recorded on the 16th of October at the London Fortune Theatre. But unfortunately, we had a technology blip, a mishap, which meant we weren't able to secure a whole recording from the event. But we enjoyed the show so much, we wanted to share it with all the purple people anyway. So hopefully, Giles, that means we've had a moment to rehearse. Oh, I didn't rehearse. I mean, I used to be a politician. I thought our rule was never apologise, never explain. Lee said soonest mended. Well, there we are. So take it away. Take it away. What are we going to talk about? Hi. Hello. Hello. Hello. Well, if I was to ask you, which is the older word, hey or hello, which one do you think you'd go for? I suppose I'd go for hey as an abbreviation of hail, as in hail and around. I would think that because hey is still quite, you know,

very much part of the hip lexicon today, that it sounds really modern to me, whereas hello sounds much more old fashioned. But actually, hey is the winner in the age stakes because hello is less than 200 years old, fewer than 200 years old. And English speakers have been using similar formulations really to greet each other since Anglo-Saxon times, most of them beginning with the letter H.

Now, why do you think this is and what is the oldest of these? Well, Hey and Ho are first recorded in the 13th century. Hi is already there in the 1400s. So, that's some 400 years before hello came on the screen, on the scene. And amongst Anglo-Saxons, a very familiar greeting was, you mentioned hail there, hail, meaning whole or be healthy. So that gave us hail and hearty. And it also gave us was hail, which was a wish that the recipient be in good health. So it was a greeting. It was also drinking toast. And of course, that became the wassail that we remember when we go wassailing at Christmas time. And then, as I say, around the 1800s, hello emerged. Now, can you guess what really secured its fame? No. Hello, hello, hello. I don't know.

It was the telephone. So the telephone's creator alexander graham bell he preferred ahoy there which sounds quite nautical doesn't it but it was thomas edison who later adapted the telephone who shouted hello into the mouthpiece of his device when he discovered a way of recording sound so that was in 1877. Then the first telephone operators were called Hello Girls. But I actually love the idea of shouting ahoy into our handsets when we answer a call, but much better still, I wish we had adopted an earlier version of ending a call because obviously, I don't know about you, but if I speak to members of my family or friends, you have this entire complicated coda of exchanges, which is, you know, see you soon. Yes. Take care. Yeah. Speak soon. Bye. Love you.

And all of that goes on forever. Whereas actually there was once a very no-nonsense formulation to end a call. Simply, that is all. And then you put the phone down. Oh, I like that. I love that. That is all. What about over and out? and then you put the phone down. Oh, I like that. That is all. What about over and out? Yes, over and out. I think this actually gets sort of real radio experts, really, radio communications experts, very, very annoyed because strictly speaking,

in two-way radio communication, over indicates that the speaker is inviting the other person to speak. So, you're turning the air over to the person you're speaking with. And then when you're done speaking, you terminate the conversation with out. So essentially, over and out, which seems to be an invention of Hollywood and radio scriptwriters, thought it was quite neat to conclude things with over and out. But this would technically mean, you can talk now if you want, but I'm not going to be listening because I've ended the call. Who is Roger? Roger, over and out. Oh, Roger is simply code for R for received. In other words, I have received your message. Oh, very good.

So we've got hello, hi, hi, howdy. Howdy, actually. Howdy doodah. And howdy is a kind of, I think that's a kind of cowboy expression from me watching in the 1950s, cowboy on television. Howdy. It is. And yes, strange, it actually is a contraction of howdy-dee. So how do you do, in other words.

And that was then mangled a little bit to howdy. Much like watcher, which I've talked to you about before because it's one of my favourite things. So I always thought watcher was definitely 80s and 90s, you know, watcher, which I've talked to you about before, because it's one of my favourite things. I always thought watcher was definitely 80s and 90s, you know, watcher cock. But actually, it could have tripped off the lips of Henry VI, because what cheer was once the traditional expression when you met an acquaintance. And it meant, what is your mood? Cheer being a synonym for face, because our facial expressions mirror our soul. So what cheer was eventually mangled to what cha? If you think about it, how do you do is a very funny form of greeting. I mean, how do you do what? I mean, what are you doing? What is the origin of that?

It's strange, isn't it? I think it's sort of how do you do is it's almost like, how do you go? It's similar to what cheer in that sort of how, what is your mood today? What are you, you know, it is similar to how are you? What is your disposition? It's like when you say to someone, you know, good to see you. How are you? And then they tell you, I mean, that is not what you want. You want to hear the word fine, and then you move on. But sometimes you say, how are you? And people then blather on for 40 minutes. I remember this meeting somebody who was a, when I was an MP, I went up to a lady at a party who was the wife of another MP. And I said, how do you do? Lovely to meet you. And she looked at me and she said, I'm so sorry. I'm quite old. I don't have time for new friendships.

Goodbye. Oh. Put me in my place, didn't it? Yes, that is all. Yeah, that is all. But since then, I've come to be quite sympathetic to her. And my wife and I, we go into a room and Michelle, she turns to me and says, I don't think I can face this.

Honestly, I don't want to meet any more people. Yes. And so let alone people who, when you say, how are you, tell you. But anyway, this is, but that was poor manners, I think, to snub me quite like that by saying, I don't want new relationships. I understand. And I'm sympathetic. Speaking of manners, I suppose manners is part of, people do greet one another. People, I mean, that's just the way it works, isn't it? Yes, it's etiquette, isn't it?

And if you remember, etiquette goes back to the French for a ticket because originally people who were attending a royal court would be given a ticket or a card on which were written the rules of the court when it came to courtesy and behaviour. on which were written the rules of the court when it came to courtesy and behaviour. A little card that actually told you when you come in, you bow twice for the king and you walk backwards, that sort of thing. Yeah. And mannus themselves go back to the Latin mannus, meaning hand, similar to manage and manicures and lots of other words, because it's the way in which you handle yourself metaphorically. Yeah. Oh, how interesting. I mean, I think manners, I like manners. I like good manners. When I was brought up, my parents were very traditional people. My father automatically,

if a lady came into the room, he would automatically stand up. I mean, that would be considered old fashioned now. And it can go wrong. I do remember being on The One Show a few years ago when a lovely actor, Peter Bowles, who was so courteous, full of good manners, he was being interviewed. And when the interview began, he sort of stood up to shake hands with the presenter, Christine Blakely. And in standing up, of course, he pulled all the microphones and half the set over with him. Sometimes being courteous is... But actually, when it comes to manners, where are you on people letting you go through the door first and holding the door open for you and getting up when you come into the room? Are you against all that? Is it patronising? I'm not against it at all. I don't see many people stand up for me when I come into a room, but I will hold the door open for someone. So it's lovely when someone does that for me too. I don't see it as being gendered anymore, particularly. Well, I mean, people like me would be

frightened of doing that now, you see. I mean, I was brought up to stand up when the lady comes into the room and now I wouldn't. I think because I wouldn't want to seem to be old-fashioned or patronising, I'd be nervous. Someone's nervous about how you behave. I have the advantage now of being older so that people stand up for me because I'm old. But when it comes to going through a door now, if I approached a door with a woman when I was younger, I would automatically have stepped back to let her go through. But now, unless it was somebody who was a female of my age or older, I would go through myself.

Whoever hit the door first would go through first. You've got to mind your P's and Q's. Oh, minding your P's and Q's. Where does that come from? Oh, one of the great mysteries. We're not completely sure. Usually people think it refers to a child beginning to read and trying to distinguish between the lowercase p and q. And of course, typesetters probably have that problem as well.

Timing doesn't quite work for that. Lots of other suggestions. But I think most people would say it's a shortening of pleases and thank yous. But again, the timing doesn't work. So to be honest, we're not completely sure. I think I'd go for the P's and Q's with the typesetters. But that is just my best guess, really. Oh, very good. Thank you for that. Thank you. Ha ha.

What's thank? I suppose that's a contraction of I thank you. Simple as that. Yes. I thank you. Simple as that. Absolutely. Yes. So thank actually goes back to a very ancient root, meaning gratitude or thought. So the idea is if it is to do with the mind, when you thank someone, you're saying, I will remember what you've done for me, really, which is quite lovely. And there's just lots of lovely thank yous in other languages as well. Obviously, And there's just lots of lovely thank yous in other languages as well.

Obviously, Spanish you have gracias, in Italian, grazie. So lots of those merci in French. And that goes back to the French for reward or gift. And it's closely linked to mercy because you are rewarding someone with kind of compassion, if you like. And again, it's the idea of I thank you. I give you my thanks as a gift. And grazie, there's a connection there with grace, isn't there? Grace, exactly. Yes, it's got quite sort of, you know, very hefty beginnings, really, if you think about it, which are quite lovely. In Japanese, you have arigato, which comes from aru meaning to exist and a Japanese word meaning difficult. So it kind of means that something is quite difficult to achieve when you say thank you.

It means it's rare and precious. So receiving thanks, a little bit like receiving mercy, is a very rare gift. Are you good at saying thank you? Do you do thank you letters? I do thank you. No, I have to say I've come unstuck a couple of times. I send thank you emails,, I have to say I've come unstuck because a couple of times I send thank you emails, which obviously not quite the same.

To older relatives, I do still try and do thank you cards. Yeah, I really should. I think I need to up my game on that really. I'm very good at apologising though. Yeah, we all need to up our game on the thank you thing. I mean, when I began, for example, in radio, 50 years and more ago, if you did a radio show, the producer would always send you a postcard afterwards saying, thanks so much for coming in.

Yeah. The fee was hardly, you know, it wasn't much thanks. And I remember for many years I did, worked with somebody called Ned Sherin. I was just going to say, he always wrote lovely cards. I got a lovely card from Ned. He always sent a lovely card. Yeah, he did. Well, you see, what's interesting- A little caricature of himself on the front.

You remember that. And so it's worth saying thank you because people remember. Yes, it's true. He did a weekly show for many years on the radio and he sent a card to every single guest. Yeah, it was lovely. Every single one. And wrote a personal comment as well. Yes.

Oh, you do get nice emails though. I do get nice emails from people saying thank you so much for coming on. Yes, you do. You do sometimes and you notice them because they are the exception, not the rule. That's true. Forgive me, I'm bad as well. I mean, I went to have a lovely lunch

with somebody on Saturday and I've been waking literally in the middle of the night knowing that I haven't sent at least a thank you card. I've got some lovely cards that I could send. So anyway, I think people should say thank you. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers must be to do with raising a glass. I mean, it's the same thing, I think people should say thank you. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers must be

to do with raising a glass. I mean, it's the same thing, isn't it? Yes, absolutely. Raising a glass. And again, it goes back to that what cheer. So, you know, to your mood, really. So may you be happy. But I think we need to take a break. And then when we come back, shall we go back to apologising? Because I really need to reduce my... Sorry, sorry, you're right, we must take a break. I'm so sorry. Do pardon me. Please. I do apologize. Actually, people in this country say sorry more than anything else. I think I'm sorry. We're overrunning. Oh, Lord. Wherever you're going, you better believe American Express will be right there with you. Heading for adventure? We'll help you breeze through security. Meeting friends a world away?

You can use your travel credit. Squeezing every drop out of the last day? How about a 4 p.m. late checkout? Just need a nice place to settle in? Enjoy your room upgrade. Wherever you go, we'll go together. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamx. Benefits vary by card. Terms apply. Hi, I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson, host of the podcast Dinners on Me. I take some of my favorite people out to dinner, including, yes, my Modern Family co-stars, like Ed O'Neill. I had friends in organized crime. Sofia Vergara.

Why do you want to be comfortable? Julie Bowen. I used to be the crier. And Aubrey Anderson-Emmons. I was so down bad for the middle of Miranda when I was like eight. You can listen to Dinners on Me wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to Something Rhymes with Purple, where Giles and I were just before the break talking about how much we apologise. I just do it way too much. I apologise to inanimate objects

that bump into me, etc. And sorry itself, Giles, goes back to, again, another sort of fairly weighty word in Old English, meaning distressed or grieved or full of sorrow. So ultimately from an ancient root meaning pain. So yeah, it's all pretty weighty stuff. Likewise, pardon. Someone said pardon. If you think about how pardon came to us through religious references, papal indulgence or the forgiveness of sins, etc. And that ultimately is from the Latin per meaning thoroughly or through and donare to give as a gift. So you are forgiving with the giving bit in there. It's a serious word because in ancient times when people were executed, they waited in hope for a royal pardon. It reminds me of my favourite joke when I used to write jokes for

Tom Smith's crackers. I submitted this one and they said, no, no, you can't do this. Oh, no, no, this is les majestés. And the joke was, what does the queen do when she burps? She issues a royal pardon. They wouldn't allow that. I think it's quite good. Les majestés. That's a phrase we don't often hear. Yeah, explain that one. What does it mean?

Well, I think it means, it's L-E-S-E, majesté. It means not treating majesty properly, treating it less than... Insulting a monarch, essentially, isn't it? Yes, I think it is. Yeah, so I think it's les... It would be injured in that sense so you're you're injuring the sovereign excuse me excuse me what what's that is the excuse the same word as excuse no yes it is actually so the x means out or away and the

cues goes back to the latin cause that meaning an accusation so you are again accepting another's plea of excuse essentially and taking your accusation away by excusing someone now goodbyes obviously we haven't even touched upon but goodbye one of my favorite etymologies because it's it's really hiding in plain sight goodbye god be with ye and he will find that obviously in adieu in french uh chow is an is a sort of strange one though in italian i think i've mentioned this to you before because chow the italian farewell is an alteration of an italian dialect word scavo meaning i am your slave so i am your slave until we meet again then you have so, which is quite sort of yearning. You have toodaloo. Oh, toodaloo, ta-ta.

Yeah, I think there's probably a riffs on a tout à l'heure in French, which is, you know, I shall see you soon. Tout à l'heure, tout à l'heure. And then toodlepip. I like to think of the pip-pip being the sort of toot of the car's horn as you're pulling out of the driveway in the days when we used to have driveways. You've got hasta la vista, baby, if you're Boris Johnson. See you later. And you have also, well, obviously that's Arnold Schwarzenegger as well. And sayonara, another Japanese one, which is lovely. It's if it be thus,

and it's kind of used to express the desire to meet again, if fate allows you, if it be thus, I think it's quite lovely. I remember Kenneth Williams, who you knew as well, I think. Kenneth Williams used to say sayonara, which is goodbye in Japanese. Sayonide is goodbye in any language. That is very, very true. Now, I think we've got some correspondence with which to say goodbye this week, haven't we? I hope so. Who's been in touch?

If you want to be in touch, by the way, want to say hi, hello, hail to us, it's purple at somethingelse.com. Well, Pat Stanley has been in touch. Hi, Giles and Susie. I've recently bought a set of measuring spoons, two of which are labelled Smidgen and Tad. Can you tell me the origin of these words, please? I am from Derbyshire and I'm aware of the terms, but don't know their origin. I'm addicted to your podcasts and find them fascinating. Every day is a school day when I'm listening. Long may it continue. Best wishes, Pat Stanley. Thank you. Well, we hope you enjoy school. Long may it continue. A Tad, a Smidgen. They're both small things. What's the origin of both of them? Yes, they're both small. I didn't mention mickle as well, which I like. A mickle in

Scots being a large amount. But actually, in the phrase, many a mickle makes a muckle, we use mickle to mean a small amount. So we got that slightly wrong. But smidgen, we think, sounds Irish to me. But actually, again, we think this is another Scots word, smitch, meaning a small amount. And tad, now i didn't know this one so i'm very grateful for this question because although we're not completely sure where it comes from it did originally denote a small child and so it might come from tadpole a little thing and if you remember tadpole the literal etymology of that is toad head, because it looks like it's a creature with just one big head and nothing else. So that's possibly where a tad, meaning a tad embarrassed, for example, somewhat,

or just a tad of honey or sugar, a small amount of something, we think that's where it comes from. Great. Well, we've also heard from David Sawyer, and he's asking about, well, Uncle Tom Copley and all. This is not Tom Sawyer, this is David Sawyer. And he's asking about, well, Uncle Tom Copley and all. This is not Tom Sawyer. This is David Sawyer. And he writes, hi. Hi. That's how it begins. My brother, Michael, introduced me to the podcast. He's always going on about how much he loves the podcast and how in-depth your research is. Well, mine isn't, but Susie's is. So I was wondering if you could look into the history of the saying Uncle Tom Copley and all, as I hear this has some convoluted origins. That rings a bell. I think we may have discussed this before. Tell me, what's the answer?

Yeah, I don't know if it's convoluted as such, but I think it goes back to the old folk song, Widdicombe Fair. and it's the last name in a very long list of people who are traveling to the fair essentially which you know bill brewer jan stewart peter davey harry hawk and then finally old uncle tom cobley and all and so that phrase came to be a kind of humorous byword for anyone and everyone essentially so um yes it's not too convoluted just a folk song from devon that's where it came from a folk song from devon well wherever you come from if you want to communicate with us, you know the email. It's purple at something else dot com, something without a G. And every week on our podcast, Susie Dent gives us three intriguing real words. That's what amazes me. But sometimes they are so odd, the words,

that I can understand how they didn't gain general currency. What have you got in your trio for us this week? Well, the trio today are prime examples of that, really, because I'm going to start with an old marker of time, which, as you know, Giles, I love, the ones that have slipped away, like overmorrow and yestreen for last night. This one is really never going to catch on, but it's useful because in German, they have vorgestern for the day before yesterday. In English, we used to have nudiestertion. I'm not even sure how we pronounce it.

N-U-D-I-U-S-T-E-R-T-I-A-N. Just a bit of a novelty that we did once have a word for it. And I think we need a better one. The next one is kwamod kunkwise again who's ever going to use this cuamodo kunkwise which is to make money any way you can and i just mentioned that because i think a lot of people are feeling that right now that we have to cuamodo kunkwise honestly be careful how you pronounce that one third one's a little bit easier. I love this one. A willy war. Willie, W-A-W at the end. W-I-L-L-I-W-A-W. A sudden violent squall from the mountains. Love that one. Oh, a willy war. It is rather an amusing word. I can see that gaining currency and also causing some confusion.

Yes, I can too. Have you got a poem for us, Charles? I think rather a special, simple poem this week. People who join us in our special Purple Plus Club will know that we've been doing a kind of alphabet of poets. And you've quite rightly reprimanded me, because I've suggested a lot of the poets, for not including enough women poets. of the poets for not including enough women poets. And we're going to get soon to the letter R. And when we do, I shall be advocating talking about Christina Rossetti. Oh, yeah. This is a very short poem by Christina Rossetti. And the weather this morning made me think of it. Who has seen the wind? Neither I nor you. But when the leaves hang trembling, the wind is passing through. Who has seen the wind?

Neither you nor I. But when the trees bow down their heads, the wind is passing by. Oh, she didn't even mention a woolly war. But isn't that interesting too? Christina Rossetti, we're talking about somebody who lived more than 150 years ago, and yet the simplicity of the language, you understand every word, it creates a mood, and it asks us deep questions. We never see the wind.

We see the results of the wind. Very interesting. I think that's a deep poem from a fascinating person no i love it thank you so much and thank you too for listening to us if you're a member of the purple people uh we we do genuinely appreciate you all and we particularly appreciate your emails as charles said please do recommend us to friends and family if you have enjoyed listening today something rhymes with purple as is something else and sony music entertainment production produced by harriet wells alongside chris skinner jen mystery teddy riley and well he's a kind of human willie war yes he is a gust a gust that he's got he blows in and then he just um yeah he's certainly full of wind