Something Rhymes with Purple - Fascicles

Episode Date: April 16, 2024

This week, Susie and Gyles unravel the intricate history of dictionaries, those indispensable guides that serve as gateways to language. From ancient lexicons to modern compendiums, we explore how dictionaries have shaped our understanding of words and the world around us. And Gyles lets us know how his weight lifting is going... We love hearing from you, find us @SomethingRhymes on Twitter and Facebook, @SomethingRhymesWith on Instagram or you can email us on our email address here: [e-mail] Want even more purple, people? Join the Purple Plus Club by clicking the banner in Apple podcasts or head to purpleplusclub.com to listen on other platforms' Don’t forget that you can join us in person at our upcoming tour, tap the link to find tickets: www.somethingrhymeswithpurple.com  Enjoy Susie’s Trio for the week:  Idioticon : A dialect dictionary. Limbeck: To rack the brain and exhaust yourself in an effort to come up with a new idea. Proggle: To poke, prod, or grubble about. Gyles' poem this week was 'Shakespeare at School' by Wendy Cope Forty boys on benches with their quills Six days a week through almost all the year, Long hours of Latin with relentless drills And repetition, all enforced by fear. I picture Shakespeare sitting near the back, Indulging in a risky bit of fun By exercising his prodigious knack Of thinking up an idiotic pun, And whispering his gem to other boys, Some of whom could not suppress their mirth – Behaviour that unfailingly annoys Any teacher anywhere on earth. The fun was over when the master spoke: Will Shakespeare, come up here and share the joke. A Sony Music Entertainment production.   Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts     To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail]  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to Something Rhymes with Purple. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. your company today. And well, for me, it's one of my special subjects. But before we get to the subject of today's episode, we thought now would be a good time to just mention our extra special subscription podcast where each week Giles and I head on over to what we call the Purple Plus Club at the moment. And we explore even more lovely nuggets about the origins and evolution of words. Right now, Giles, we're nearing the end of our Wit and Wisdom series, aren't we? We certainly are. And I think we've almost reached Elizabeth Taylor. When I mentioned that to my wife, she said, oh, it's a bit predictable, Giles. Elizabeth Taylor,

that's a bit old. And I said, no, no, no, no, no, not Elizabeth Taylor, the actress, Elizabeth Taylor, the remarkable English novelist who was witty, had a wonderful way with words, and is not as famous as she ought to be. So we're talking about her. Absolutely. So do head on over. It's £2.99 a month, which our lovely producer Naya has assured me is the same price as two packets of Percy Pigs. I say assure because I actually know that's true. Do you eat Percy Pigs? Well, actually, maybe not. We shouldn't be giving an advert to Percy Pigs. I say, sure, because I actually know that's true. Do you eat Percy Pigs? Well, actually, maybe not. We shouldn't be giving an advert to Percy Pigs,

but they are a bit delicious. Oh, I do know. Somebody gave me some Percy Pigs. Was it you who gave me some Percy Pigs the other day? It might have been. They were all chewy and I couldn't cope with them at all. That's the point. I'm eating something called Vau Creatine Chews

that my son has given me since I started weightlifting. And he says, you need these, Dad. Have you started weightlifting? Okay, sorry. Yeah, I have. Hang fire on the subject for today, which I will say to people is the next installment in our series on dictionaries and the history of lexicography. So as Giles munches on his creatine is it creatinine creatinine isn't it

or creatine c-r-e-a-t-i-n-e i have no idea what it is yeah my son gave me a packet of these and said dad now you're doing the um and i am i didn't know you were tell us about this because i'm eating cheese i'm moving from five kilos to 10 kilos and i do these and I've got a big dumbbell thing for solo work. Yeah. Where does this take place? In this very room. You have noticed I'm in a different room. Have you noticed that? Yes, I haven't seen it yet. I can't see your placement. I've moved to the top of the house. And this is a room right at the top of the house that was one of the children's bedrooms. And I'm now in this room because it's a small room and I'm going to start on a new book soon. And over the years, I've learned that the

quality of the book is in inverse proportion to the size of the room. So if it's a huge room, the work won't be very good. The smaller the room, I find the better the work. So I've got my back to the window, my nose to the desk, and I'm up here. But online, I meet my physiotherapist and she has got me lifting weights. We began doing it because I remember I broke my arm and now it's to get my core strength going and to anyway. So I'm lifting weights. They're not very high, they're not very heavy, but I keep doing it. I'm taking these creatine chews to help me on my way. I'm extremely impressed. Let's just hope that you are not ingesting steroids because who knows what your father's giving you. But no,

I'm only kidding. Well, back to my favourite subject, and I think also not one that you are averse to because it's dictionaries. it's the history of lexicography and in our first part which is called treasure house and is already out there we spoke about the first ever dictionaries which were primarily glossaries usually from latin to english also from french to english we talked about the tensions between prescriptivism and descriptivism. So people wanting linguistic government and English not having one. And we talked a little bit about thesauruses. And we mentioned, of course, Roger's thesaurus, if you remember.

Yeah. So today, I thought I could introduce you to the delights of the English dialect dictionary. And I say introduce because you will already be more familiar with it than you know, Giles, because so many of the words in my trios actually come from this amazing work. Explain to me, what is a dialect? Okay. So, a dialect is, usually people think when I say dialect, they think of accents only. They just think it's all about pronunciation, but actually a dialect is very much vocabulary as well.

I thought of Doctor Who. That's what I thought it was about. No, nothing to do with dialects. Not a dalek, a dialect. A dialect, yes. And it's also known as idiolects. And idio here means sort of pertaining to one person. So it's kind of peculiar to a certain person or a group of people. So for example, an idiom is something that is also spoken by a particular group of people. And an idiot, believe it or not, which is linked to idiom was originally applied to citizens of Rome who were private citizens as opposed to ones who took part in public life.

And over time, the idea is that they actually were ignorant. They weren't kind of educated. They were amateurs. They weren't involved in the all-important stuff. So that's had quite a journey. Anyway, idiolects and dialects, pretty much the same thing. They are the special sort of reforms or varieties of languages that are peculiar to a specific group of people and usually a specific geographical region. So is Cockney a dialect or is it just a slanguage used by people who come from a certain part of London? Well, you have actually come up with an extremely important question because the lines between dialect and slang are really blurred, actually. And you could just say that dialects are local slang because they are viewed as informal varieties of language rather than standard.

But increasingly, dialect is being recognised, you know, not just by us as English speakers, but also by dictionaries. And I've mentioned this before, it's been incredibly difficult for dictionaries such as the Oxford English Dictionary to record local varieties of language because they were so much part of a spoken oral tradition. And so they weren't often written down. And the OED relies very much on printed evidence for its records. But now, thanks to the internet, they are being written down and people are swapping the sayings of their parents and grandparents, either explicitly and saying, oh, my gran used to say this,

or they're just using them themselves. So actually, we are really on a good trajectory at the moment to capturing dialect, which also is beginning to, I'm not sure if I would say flourish, but it's definitely not in the doldrums. Very good. And is there a dialect dictionary that you prefer? Is there an original dialect dictionary? We've talked about Dr. Johnson's dictionary being the most famous early English dictionary. What is the most famous English dialect dictionary? It is called just that, the English dialect dictionary, which is the most comprehensive dictionary of English dialects that has ever been published. And it was compiled by a man from Yorkshire, a dialectologist called Joseph Wright, and greatly supported by his wife,

Elizabeth Mary Wright. And when did they live? When were they doing this? In Victorian times? Yes. So, 1855 to 1930 was Joseph Wright's dates. And he was a scholar. He approached the subject just as the editors of the OED might. He provided full evidence of his sources. He gave proper grammatical analysis. It was a living thing, so he would go back and what we call, if you remember, anti-date, so give an earlier date of a particular word if he found one. And it is absolutely extraordinary. And it is now available online thanks to an Innsbruck University research project, which produced the EDD online. And it's absolutely wonderful. And Joseph Wright had to battle against

those who didn't think that dialect had much academic value. And much as I've talked before about Samuel Johnson, who always looked to the greats for his examples of use, he wanted to preserve the purity of the English language. And I'm not sure dialect would have fitted into his conception of standard English. So can you give me an example from this English dialect dictionary? I mean, they're words that come from Yorkshire or from Lancashire, from Dorset or Devon. I mean, how does it work? They are just gorgeous. So it's alphabesical, obviously.

And I can give you how many examples do you want. Well, what's the first word in the dictionary? Well, the very first word, actually, it's a very good point. I don't know what the first word in the actual dictionary is, but the wonderful David Crystal, who you and I both know, wrote this lovely, it was essentially just a treasury of words that he took from the English dialect dictionary. And his first word is abby lubber. And an abby lubber is somebody who is basically somebody who loafs about, a loafer. And originally was a lazy loiterer in a religious house.

And where was that? Does that then tell us what part, which dialect that comes from? Yeah, that was Somerset and Yorkshire and also nautical slang. So it had quite a fast stretch. Then you have the wonderful Afloof, which is from Scotland. And that means straight off. So without any kind of forethought, straight off. How do you spell that?

So A-F-F-L-U-F-E. Now that could be controversial, couldn't it? Because I've met people in Scotland who say there isn't a Scottish dialect, there's a Scottish language, or there is English, which contains some Scottish words. Oh, absolutely. So Scots, yeah, recognised as a language. We talked on this, if you remember, in our Purple Plus Club, where we discussed the poet Lampeni.

Ah, yes. So, yes, there are many Scots words in here, actually. There's another one, great one, from Cumberland, Devon, Somerset and Yorkshire, buzzknacking. And buzzknacking means fussing or gossiping, which is lovely. There's kabobbled from Cornwall, mystified or confused. There's fandandering. I think most people might recognize that one these days. That's from Northumberland. If you're fandandering, you're kind of good for nothing, really. Grumptious, meaning irritable and sullen. I mean, a lot of these, as I say, I've mentioned in my trade, this is one of those, just to finish off with, NURBLE, N-U-R-B-L-E, and it describes the wearing away of shoes. And would these words also be in the Oxford English Dictionary?

Because they've been used. I mean, grumptious is a word that I feel I've heard. Yeah, some, but not all. So some will be in there, but yeah, I'm pretty sure not all of them will be. so some will be in there but yeah pretty sure not all of them will be but the wonderful news is that Leeds University has been very active in the field of dialect and their research into not just the English dialect dictionary but sort of continuing its endeavour has been really valuable so they have had teams of respondents going around to people up and down the country and asking them for, for example, you know, you'd ask a respondent, well, if you were cold, how would you describe it? And somebody might say, well, brassic. Oh no, brassic is actually skint, isn't it? They might say nithered or shrammed or I don't know, nesh, which is, as you know, one of my favourite words. Or you might say, what would you call being hungry?

And so they will collect all of these dialect words and they will note not just where they come from, but whether they're still in good use or whether they're fading away, etc. So there is hope. There is real hope in capturing our local vocabulary and sayings as well, of course, as our accents. I mentioned the Oxford English Dictionary there. Is that the oldest English language dictionary that was certainly the most famous, I suppose? Yeah, no, because Samuel Johnson obviously came first, and then the glossaries that we talked about in part one were the earliest English dictionaries. But yes, I think probably the

most famous. I mean, I always call it the mother of all dictionaries because it really has spawned and given birth to so many others. It's got such an amazing history that I can't begin to condense here. But essentially, it was commissioned by Oxford University. It wasn't really commissioned actually. They agreed to publish a work that was put forward or proposed by the Philological Society, which was a London-based society devoted to the scholarly pursuit and study of language. And they wanted to essentially address the deficiency in this country of proper dictionaries because in Europe, dictionary and lexicography, dictionary making lexicography was a long way ahead of us and

national dictionaries were being produced in a way that we just weren't over here. So in 1879, the OUP agreed to publish the work and a new editor was agreed, James Murray famously, who thought that the dictionary would take him 10 years to complete. And after five years, the first part of it, which is called a fascicle, so the different parts of a dictionary called he'd done in five years. So you can get just how extraordinary an endeavor it was. And what was wonderful is he relied so much on correspondence from other people. So there was an army of readers right across the world. And if I may, I would love to recommend a book that is written by Sarah Ogilvie called The Dictionary People, in which she looks at the extraordinary personalities from across the world who contributed

to the Oxford English Dictionary, who gathered words and crucially gathered evidence of how the words were being used. And honestly, there are some characters in there. I mean, there was one man, I think in Australia, who would just shove little bits of, oh no, I think he read his local newspaper every single day and was constantly sending in records from there. But I think he also had, I think he also sort of stuffed bits into his pockets amongst kind of chewed up bits of biscuit and that would be sent in. There were murderers, there were thieves. Murderers? People in prison? People in prison, yeah.

Reading the newspaper and sending in clip cuttings? Yes. How did that work? Well, very famously, there was, I think, even a film actually made of this. So there was an inmate of Broadmoor Hospital who was a contributor. He was called William Miner. And he was actually one of the most amazing contributors to the OED. He was a retired surgeon in the US Army. And it wasn't made clear until quite late on that he was an inmate of Broadmoor, which at the time was called

a criminal lunatic asylum. And he was incredible, actually, in terms of what he produced. But anyway, I do recommend that book because it just shows you in a very accessible, but also very scholarly way, just how important these contributors were. They're called readers. And the OED still has a huge, vast team of people who are contributing every single day. So the OED is my Bible. It's a living thing. It's not finished. Famously, the longest entry is for set, but run, I think is giving it a good run, excuse the pun, for its money. And it's got the most amazing dedicated team who are now not just consulting the evidence that's sent in by the readers, but also consulting these vast databases of current language and

seeing how words have evolved. Because of course, what they're doing is mapping the trajectory and the journey of every single word. Well, not every single word. I sound like the blackadder sketch that we discussed in our last episode on nonsense verse, but as many words as we can possibly capture. One of the words you just mentioned was fascicle, for being a section of the dictionary, a part of the dictionary. What is the origin of that? How do you spell it, that word, fascicle?

Okay, so the spelling is F-A-S-C-I-C-L-E. Gosh. Sorry, it's not one. So it actually goes back to a Latin word, fascis, F-A-S-C-I-S, meaning a bundle. And believe it or not- As in the fascist symbol, yes. Exactly. Because, yes, that goes back to a bundle of sticks, and it was the name given to many

political organizations in Italy, because that, I think, was the sort of emblem. It's certainly the ancient Roman symbol of the civic magistrate was a bundle of rods tied around an axe, and that was known as the fascio littorio. And yeah, so weird that there's a link between the dictionary and fascism, but there is in terms of, you know, etymology. Well, we've wrapped up our bundle of dictionaries. And so let's take a quick break. Perfect. you better believe American Express will be right there with you. Heading for adventure? We'll help you breeze through security. Meeting friends a world away?

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This is Something Rhymes with Purple, where today we're dipping into dictionaries. But it's not like it used to be. I, at home, you've been into my room where I keep my dictionaries here in London, Susie, and I've got shelves full of books that are dictionaries, and I enjoy still putting them off the shelf and just dipping into them. Whereas if you do it all on screen, you can't do it quite the same way, can you? No, it's absolutely true. In fact, I went to listen as part of the Oxford Literary Festival to the writer Ali Smith, who was talking about the joy, the sort of tangible, physical joy of actually holding a book and how that will never go away. And she was just holding it in such a way that it just looked like a butterfly. And she just saying we are you know we are physical we need something tangible so that's absolutely right

and you take a dictionary down from your shelf and you read it but the only exception I would make is the OED because it's so vast 20 volumes in print that I just don't have room for it anymore sadly on my shelf so I consult it online and I still feel that sense of threads because the way that it is presented online, you can still wander. You can let your fingers sort of almost riffle through virtual pages and wander to the next entry. And then you can click on the historical thesaurus, which I'm always telling you about, where you can look for synonyms over the ages for particular things. So it's a joy online as well. And is it kept up to date as it goes? I mean, does the dictionary now change every day?

Because the one I've got, the printed one, was given to me, as I think I've told you, by Robert Birchfield 40 years ago when he was the editor of the OED. But of course, it hasn't changed in 40 years and there are lots of new words. Does your online version change on a daily basis? Not on a daily basis that I would notice, but revision is underway all the time. So you can see online, it'll say last revised and it will give you a date. And then they have quarterly updates. I mean, with current English dictionaries now, you might not even know about an update. You might not get a list of words

that have gone in because that can happen much more quickly. Whereas, as I always say with the OED, once a word goes in, it stays in and it never comes out. So the inclusion criteria are a little bit stricter. Well, if you've got thoughts about dictionaries, you've got a favourite dictionary you'd like to recommend, just as Susie's been recommending hers. Do feel free to get in touch. It's purplepeopleatsomethingrhymes.com. Have we had communications from around the world this week? We do. We have heard from Sandeep, who is a long-time listener. Hi, Susie and Giles. I'm a long-time listener and I love the show. I've actually written in and received a shout out a couple of times before and I've long been spreading the word around my friends to listen. I'm also a huge football fan and that's what my question relates to. One word that gets thrown around a lot nowadays in the game

is bottle. Teams that lose or choke in games bottle it but equally a player that performs well in a high stress situation has bottle. So when did the use of the word bottle come into play? And are these two opposites related? Thanks, Sandy from London. Very good. That's a good question. Can you have a guess? Have a think if I told you Cockney rhyming slang. Oh, bottle, bottle, bottle top? It's bottle and glass, arse. Oh no. bottle top it's bottle and glass ass oh no yes so in fact in cottony rhyming saying your aris is your bottom because it's aristotle bottle bottle and glass ass so you're

two removes i know i love it i absolutely love it but the idea is that if you have bottle, then you have courage and determination. And it's like you have guts, to use another part of the body. Where if you bottle it, I think the idea is that perhaps you can't quite, how shall I put it? You can't quite hold everything in. Or contain it within your aris. That is your, exactly. Yes. Oh my goodness.

So yes, they are related. And it's a very strange thing that takes us from courage to your bottle and arse. But I'm just looking to see now when the first mention, yes. So in full form, sometimes with connotations of courage or nerve, rhyming slang for us. So bottle and glass buttocks, 1935. And it's a glossary of the criminal underworld, the language from there. Then you've got a novel from 1962 where a character is lifting one leg and scratching his bottle. And there's one in 2011, if you've got plenty of bottle and glass, you've got plenty

of arse when you're confronted with a career-defining test. So yeah, so there you go. But I'm not sure that's at all what Sandeep expected, and I apologise if I've offended anybody, but that is its origin. It's completely fascinating. The English language is fascinating, as we're going to discover as a result of Leona from Bristol's question. She says, which is very nice, thank you for the brilliant podcast and for being linguistic legends. I'm writing with a question that has perplexed me each breakfast. that has perplexed me each breakfast. It seems in all of my favourite toasty toppings, there's an element of mar, M-A-R, marmite, marmalade and margarine. Is there an etymological link between these or is it just coincidence? All the best, Leona from Bristol. Well, thanks, Leona. They're not actually related, but I can totally see why you thought that,

not least, as you say, because they appear on your breakfast table. So I'll start with Marmite. And I love how Marmite has actually become a word in itself, meaning you either love it or hate it. But if you look at the label of a traditional bottle of Marmite, you will see a black cooking pot, a sort of earthenware iron cooking pot. And that is where it takes its name because the French marmite means just that, a cooking pot. So the clue is on the label, even though you wouldn't necessarily know that. And no one actually knows where marmite comes from in French. So that's a little bit elusive. On to marmalade. And I think we've spoken about this before, Giles, because early marmalade was nothing like the marmalade that we enjoy today. It was

like a solid quince jelly that was cut into squares. And you can still get fruit jellies where you do just that, very sugary. In 1524, we know that King Henry VIII was given a box of marmalade. So we kind of know from that exactly what it looked like. But it actually comes from a Portuguese marmalade, quince jam. So it's all about quince essentially, which is what was chosen for the first fruit. Forget oranges. It's all about quince. And there is the famous story that marmalade was originally made for Mary, Queen of Scots, when she was ill, and that it comes from Marie Malade, ill Mary, but no foundation in that at all. And the Scots really invented the kind of

marmalade we know today, because there was a factory built in Dundee in the late 18th century. Finally, margarine, again, not related. This comes from French, but actually goes all the way back to a Greek word, margaron, meaning pearl. And that's because the early margarine and the early ingredients had a sort of slightly pearl-like or pearlescent appearance. Gosh, you know so much. I think it's extraordinary. Well, if people want, yes, you do. Well, I don't know. I look up in the OED, so big shout out to the OED. But between you and the OED, you've got it all covered. If people have got queries about favourite words, particularly unusual words, weird words, wacky idioms, and if you've not known the origin, do send us a voice note.

It's simply purplepeople at somethingrhymes.com. And who knows, you could be featured in a not too distant episode of Something Rhymes with Purple. Well, have you got three words for us? Are they dialect words? Are they mainstream words? What are the words you've got? Well, a mixture of both, really. I'm going to start with, now I mentioned idiot and idiom and idiolect. Well, I'm going to add one more to the mix, which is an idioticon, which is a dialect dictionary, not a dictionary for idiots. But idioticon, I think is just quite lovely. Then I'm going to go to a word from Lancashire, which is to proggle. And to proggle is a bit like prod and poke together. It's to kind of poke about. So particularly, there's also known as grubbling. If you're looking for something in a handbag, for example, or at the bottom of a cupboard,

you might proggle and grubble and fossick. I mean, lots of words for the same thing, but all of those come from English dialect. And my last one is, well, I actually put it out on Twitter because it absolutely described the way I was feeling one afternoon. To limbeck, L-I-M-B-E-C-K, is to rack the brain and exhaust it in an effort to come up with a new idea. Oh, that's very interesting. It is a really interesting one. So it's basically fatiguing the brain in an effort to extract anything useful from it. And it is actually a riff on alembic, which is an alembic, which was an early apparatus that was used for

distillation and for extracting liquids. So it's all about extracting the essence of something. So is it a noun describing what's happening, or is it a verb? It's a verb. It's a verb. To limbeck is to struggle to get something out of you and to persist. Yes. You know, Napoleon, the Emperor Napoleon used to say, in fact, he apparently used to have the ability to concentrate on a problem for up to six or seven hours on one problem. Wow. To really waddle it through. And that is to limbeck. To limbeck, exactly. Very good. Exactly. Very useful word. Would I be right in thinking that Shakespeare

is the author most often cited amongst early words in the Oxford English Dictionary? Yes, he is. There is great energy behind actually anti-dating Shakespearean neologisms. I mean, Shakespeare never claimed to be a great neologizer. And actually, what is probably true is that many of the words were out there anyway. He was simply documenting them. But yeah, currently, he is credited with the most first records. Well, that's what's led me to choose this week's poem, which is called Shakespeare at School. It's a poem by Wendy Cope, and it's written in the form of a sonnet, which is appropriate,

but it's about Shakespeare at School. Forty boys on benches with their quills, six days a week through almost all the year. Long hours of Latin with relentless drills and repetition all enforced by fear. I picture Shakespeare sitting near the back, indulging in a risky bit of fun by exercising his prodigious knack of thinking up an idiotic pun, and whispering his gem to other boys, some of whom could not suppress their mirth, his gem to other boys, some of whom could not suppress their mirth, behavior that unfailingly annoys any teacher anywhere on earth. The fun was over when the master spoke.

Will Shakespeare, come up here and share the joke. Perfect. I love that. That's excellent. Very good choice for today, I feel. Well, thank you so much for everybody who has joined us. Please do keep following us wherever you get your podcasts. You can find us on social media, at Something Rhymes on X and Facebook, or at Something Rhymes With on Instagram. I must remember to keep calling it X.

For more Purple, there is also, as we mentioned at the top of the episode, the Purple Plus Club, where you can listen ad-free and you can get some exclusive episodes on words and language. Something Rhymes with Purple is a Sony Music Entertainment production produced by Naya Deo with additional production from Charlie Murrell,

Jennifer Mistry, Matthias Toreth-Sole and Ollie Wilson. I have to tell you, Matthias is a prince and Naya is a queen. The queen of the universe.