Something Rhymes with Purple - Haddaway

Episode Date: October 22, 2019

We’re talking sports this week. What have boxing, horse racing and dart throwing done for the English language? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up y'all it's your man Mark Strong Strizzy and your girl Jem the Jem of all Jems and we're hosting Olympic FOMO your essential recap podcast of the 2024 Olympic Games in 20 minutes or less every day we'll be going behind the scenes for all the wins

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with American Express. Unmissable show coming up? Good news. We've got access to pre-sale tickets so you don't miss it. Meeting with friends before the show? We can book your reservation. And when you get to the main We'll see you next time. Amex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello there. I'm Giles Brandreth and I'm with my friend... Susie Dent. And today we're going to talk about boxing, about horse racing, about darts.

But don't worry, if you're not interested in any of those, about darts. But don't worry, if you're not interested in any of those, Susie will be coming in later with three new or unusual or interesting words to share with us. We'll also be dealing with some of your correspondents. And Susie will be doing most of the talking, but I will chip in occasionally with a bit of name dropping. And given that sports is on the agenda this week, I was reflecting what privileged lives you and I both lead. Because by virtue of our day-to-day existence, we meet interesting and remarkable people.

Who do you think this week is the most interesting person you have met in the past seven days since we were last together? I did sit next to Dan Walker, the lovely Dan Walker from BBC Breakfast and of course, all sorts of sports programmes. Well there we are. This week and it's always great fun. He's so tall though, anyone looks like a just little shrimp next to him, especially me. We had a countdown photo taken in which

Rachel looking fairly pregnant, shall we say, was standing next to me and Dan Walker and it was just a very funny sight. I looked tiny, Dan looked huge, and Rachel just looked round, but beautiful. Well, I take your Dan Walker. And you. And I raise my David Beckham. Oh, my goodness. That is something for a sporting photo. There we are. Yes. On Monday of this week, I don't quite know why I was asked, because I'm not really a fashion icon. But I was asked with my wife. And maybe that was why we were asked to Victoria Beckham's shop in the West End of London, in Dover Street off Piccadilly.

And out of curiosity, we went. We certainly didn't go to buy anything because I imagine the items are very expensive. I have to say, I covet her. Some of her stuff is beautiful, but really expensive. Now, what surprised me, several things surprised me. The first thing is that she was there welcoming us, petite, beautiful, young-looking, really nice. I'd met her before years ago, and it was exciting.

And anyway, so I was thrilled, first of all, to see her. And then I was thrilled by the shop, how normal it was, very stylishly done, great staircase sweeping up. And then how attractive the clothes were, great hanger appeal. Really, really nice. But then, so I thought, well, this is a good start. There's hardly anybody here. It's just me, the champagne, the canapé and VB. And then in came, yeah, David with their children. There's, which which is that what are they called there's brooklyn there's is it no brooklyn romeo's one of them called romeo yeah yeah anyway uh the children were there and david was there and what was interesting about david is uh a that he was

smaller and slimmer than i expected he was, looking so stylish. And the tattoos were not very evident because he was wearing a very sharp suit with quite long cuffs. And anyway, he was delightful. So I am now actually hooked on the Beckhams. So we're going to talk about not football, that's for another day. Boxing. Boxing has given words to the language. Yeah, I'm quite keen on taking up boxing, up boxing actually i just just as one of the things i've dabbled in quite a few different sports um but i need to find one that i'm really passionate about for a while it was um sculling so rowing with two oars um but that was why is it called sculling by the way because the oars are called skulls. Why are they called skulls?

I think it's from, I think it's a Viking word. Right. I think. I will check on that. But, yeah, I like the idea of boxing, I have to say. Anyway, so many expressions. People do have reservations about boxing, don't they? Yes.

No, I'm not talking about beating someone's face up. I'm just talking about kind of kickboxing or just sort of, you know, that more of the sort of keep fit type. Dancing around the ring, but wearing the gloves and sort of punching people. Yeah, maybe just a punch bag. Yeah. Or you.

So some of the expressions that we have are really obvious ones. Saved by the bell, out for the count, blow by blow account of something, having a fighting chance, ducking and diving. But there are some surprises as well. So you might talk about something being the real McCoy, if you ever wondered who Mr. McCoy was.

I did. Well, there was an American boxer from the 1890s and he used the name Kid McCoy and he was hugely popular. Is he American? And triumphant in the name Kid McCoy. And he was hugely popular. Is he American? Triumphant in America. Kid McCoy. Kid McCoy. But there were so, there are many stories about how there were so many imitators of him that when he himself fought, he called himself the real Kid McCoy.

Like on Twitter, people say the real Donald Trump, as if anybody would want to be an imposter. Yeah. That's the same thing. So that's one of the theories. But there is a more likely origin. And that is it comes from an ad slogan for a whiskey that was called Mackay's Whiskey. Incredibly popular in about the same time, about the 1870s.

And they used a slogan in their ads, the real Mackay, a drop of the real Mackay. Okay. The drop of the real Mackay. And so it's possible that these two stories kind of conflated. They got mixed together. So the real Mackay and the real Kid McCoy, somehow their stories merged. And that's how we ended up with the idea that he's the real McCoy. It's amazing. We use phrases that we don't even know. Well, that's the point of Something Rhymes with Purple.

So that's boxing. That's boxing. And in early bare-knuckle boxing, a line would be scratched in the ground, sort of midway between the two fighters. And one was knocked down. He would be given 30 seconds to stand up. So this might sound all familiar. And he'd have to return to the scratch. The scratch was knocked down. He would be given 30 seconds to stand up. So this might sound all familiar. And he'd have to return to the scratch.

The scratch was the line. So to start from scratch possibly goes back to that. We also know that a scratch was a line scratched in the ground in horse races. And if the horse is veered off track, they'd have to start again from the scratch. So it definitely is sporting origin to start from scratch, back to scratch. It's a scratch in the line. You're either starting from that scratch or in the boxing match,

you've been knocked over and you've got to go back to the scratch, which is where you begin the bout. Throwing one's hat into the ring. We were talking the other day about having a chip on one shoulder, which may go back to the idea of picking up a piece of wood chip

from the ground, placing it on your shoulder to signal that you were ready for a fight in North America, sort of frontier land, or to throw one's hat into the ring, signalled in the days of prize fighting that you were willing to take on a challenge and that

you would enter the fray. You literally did it. You said, I'm ready for this. In the days when people wore hats. You indicated it. Yeah. So many, so many. I mean, he can run, but he can't hide. That was obviously one of the phrases from boxing used by Joe Lewis, I think, of his opponent, Billy Conn, who boasted he could run rings round him.

So that kind of whole pre-match hype has even given us some expressions. Well, when we were younger, there was Muhammad Ali, also known as Cassius Clay for a while. Stings like a butterfly. Yeah. No. Yeah. No, what's he do?

Like a butterfly and stings like a bee. Flies like a butterfly, stings like a bee. Dances like a butterfly. Does he? No. He flew like a butterfly. Floats. Thank God.

We have our team here. This is Lawrence. What is the phrase again? Floats like a butterfly, stings like a bee. Yeah, apparently he stings like a butterfly as well, if I had my way. Sorry about that. Floats like a butterfly, stings like a bee. Yeah, apparently stings like a butterfly as well, if I had my way. Sorry about that. Floats like a butterfly, stings like a bee. It's interesting.

These terms and phrases come part and parcel of the language. Yeah, they do. So many, yeah, I've come into English and boxing and horse racing as well. I should just say here that I don't really agree with horse racing. I don't know how you feel about it. Just things like the Grand National just make me flinch because there's just a lot of fatality and carnage, isn't there? I'm a great animal lover.

Me too. And I'm a vegetarian and I love animals. I know horses do. They seem to quite like being ridden. They seem to quite like racing. The one thing I do know is that the race course is one of the most egalitarian places in the world. All human life is there and you get all types,

all classes, all ages, all sorts of people will go there. Literally from the monarch to everybody is there. So that's quite nice. And I've been to Old Windsor Racecourse, which is absolutely beautiful. I remember seeing Albert Finney there and being incredibly excited oh i'm pleased your name robin now good oh no i didn't say hello to him he's just from yeah i just looked at him from afar but um yeah that's just something that just doesn't sit right with me but i have to say from

an english point of view we should be very grateful because you mentioned race course horses for courses obviously that's an obvious one you need to match a horse to to the track it's suited to um your horse might be running on the inside track um you might be on the fast track um all of those we don't really think about fast track the same fast tracking something yeah probably does go back to that idea because i think it predates motor racing and things um it goes back to that idea of or possibly greyhound racing because i can see those little those rabbits though greyhounds are most beautiful creatures they are it's just what happens to them afterwards well exactly i've done a few things charity things for the retired greyhounds yeah well it's a pleasure because i have to tell you the most lovely dog is a greyhound and people think they require a huge amount of exercise they don't know and they are so affectionate and easy i could just say if we're

throwing in charities i've been doing stuff for guide dogs actually which is a wonderful wonderful thing but also fantastic charity called dogs on the streets and i went and joined them on a really rainy wet miserable night near home the other day and they basically look after the dogs of the truly homeless and give them food coats um veterinary care give soup to those um you know to the homeless themselves and they're just i mean they're lifelines these dogs to um to many of these people that's just the best charity ever so dogs on the streets i salute you anyway get back to the horse get back to the horses um so we talked about being up to scratch um etc that again can be applied to um horse racing riding rough shod over something if a horse is going over slippery terrain it can be rough shod

so that's shod with the nails projecting outwards to give the horse a better grip i've got the turn up for the books whip hand exactly turn up for the books. Whip hand, exactly. Turn up for the books. Turn up for the book. That's from racing, we think, because a book is a record of bets laid on a race. So kept by the bookkeeper. Bookies could often go out of business spectacularly if a well-backed horse won. So sometimes they could get bankrupt in a single race meet, I guess. And so what they needed was the reverse for an unfancied horse with no bets placed on it to romp home and sometimes sometimes bookies and horse owners would work together and the owners would allow a champion horse to run under completely different name and then win beat the field and save the bookies business so that was a turn up for the bookies books and that horse could be called a ringer

um a dead ringer actually began in horse racing nothing to do with ringing bells once you're buried alive and of course that horse that was um riding under a different name was a dark horse that's where we get that from as well so winning hands down winning hands down as well sounds like an emission poker but it's the idea of a jockey who's in front, can relax his hold on the reins and let the horse sort of do its own thing. Winning hands down. So you put your hands down, you're not putting it. Winning hands down is you've got such an easy margin that you can relax a little bit.

Wonderful. Relax the reins. Yeah. Gosh, I mean, just so many. Cantering. Canter began as a shortened form of canterbury pace or canterbury gallop which was the pace at which mounted pilgrims would make their way to the shrine of saint thomas beckett at canterbury in the middle ages so cantering is all about canterbury

but that is interesting because cantering is quite fast i know it's not that leisurely is it because if you think if at school you did the canterbury Tales by Geoffrey Chaucer, which is how most people are introduced, I suppose, if they are at all, to the idea of the pilgrimage to Canterbury. You think of them in a leisurely way, trotting at most along the road and telling stories to one another. I agree. But if they're going at a canter, wow. Well, you can have a sort of fairly gentle canter, I suppose. Anyway, that's where it comes from. Good.

Ask me not the reason why. And a steeplechase, the original steeple was, a steeplechase was one that had a church steeple in view as the end goal. So it would go over all the countryside's traditional obstacles like fences and ditches and ponds and always with that steeple ahead. Well, look, we're getting all these phrases straight from the horse's mouth. Very good. Is that a gambling expression? As it were, the horse himself has told you he's going to win. Is that what that original is? Absolutely right. In the horse race,

yeah. If you hear it from the horse, you know you're all right. Good. Well, if you hear it from Susie Dent, you know it's true. Whatever she says, fact. Let's have a break. Bumble knows it's hard to start conversations. Hey. No, too basic. Hi there. Still no.

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about a new podcast I've made. How to Write a Book is for anyone who wants to get their story out there. Fronted by a best-selling author, a super agent, and a powerhouse publisher, this 12-week masterclass will take you right through from developing an idea to nailing the plot. If you want to get all episodes at once and completely ad-free, subscribe now. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. You've been boasting, Susie, about your friendship with Dan Walker. I've not been boasting. You asked me who I was sitting next to. I was just teasing you. And I love Dan.

And I used to love Jim Bowen. Oh, yeah. He was a schoolteacher and who became famous for a darts program called Bullseye. Yeah. And he was great fun to be with. And I think he lived in a railway station, in a converted railway station. Anyway, he was a good guy. And he tried to get me interested in darts.

He did not succeed. I liked him. The whole world of darts is a strange world to me. I don't even understand the language. But has it contributed from the dart board into the world beyond? Well, this is one where actually I think the kind of vocabulary has pretty much stayed on the board and in the darts room. I'm with you.

I used to have a darts board in my garage as I was growing up and used to love it. But I was not immersed in the whole vocabulary. But what a vocabulary it is I mean it's incredible the hockey that's a really strange one and it's inspired so many stories as to where it comes from some people believe it to stem and I love this story from when the throwing line was marked by three beer crates which were branded with the logo of a brewery hockey and sons which I love.

But the OED, which is my Bible, as you know, suggests that it's a corruption of the hog line used in curling that a stone has to cross in order to count. And maybe a reference to the laziness of the pig. I mean, it's quite convoluted, all of this. I prefer the brewery Hockey and Sons. So that's the one. But nobody knows. Nobody really knows.

And it's spelt. C-H-E. Simple as that. And you must be on the hockey and not be on the edge of it. Yeah. To be valid for your throw to be valid. Exactly, to start. But honestly, the equipment has got, you know,

it's got its own lexicon, as you would expect. The house is the double or triple zone. The bed is any scoring segment of the of the board but it's the scores that are so wonderful i mean where else but darts would a rubber which is the final game of a match be called the prophylactic wow brilliant much of the lingo comes from the east end big ben is a 10 beehives is a double five um two whores not good double four bed and breakfast um which is 26 from three darts which is based on apparently the standard price of b&b in england in the early 20th century so that was two shillings and sixpence 26 that's good isn't it um and then

you've got the bug button the bunghole you've You've got all the varieties, which I love, which is a score of 57, because that's from the ad slogan of Heinz. All the varieties. What's a trombone? I don't know. Tell me, what's a trombone? 76 points. I've got it here in my book.

As in 76 trombones in the big parade. It's a song. Is it? It's a song. The show's called The Music Man. Oh, I just throw these things in. I know quite a lot, but people prefer to hear it from you. No, I don't think that's true. Oh, I just throw these things in. I know quite a lot, but people prefer to hear it from you.

No, I don't think that's true. Oh, Annie's Room. Annie's Room is a lost cause, apparently. Quite a sad story attached to this because the player has nowhere to go but double one. And it's said to originate in the First World War

when somebody up in Annie's Room was whereabouts unknown, missing in action. It's quite sad, isn't it? These are nice phrases, but intriguingly, not many of them have gone beyond the hockey. They've stayed close to the dartboard. I think that's true.

Horse racing has given us more. I think that's very true. The shouts and darts, mind the waiter, or father's boots, or webby, or moccasins are all warnings to a player whose toes are over the hockey. Oh, that's nice. And also, just taunting jibes so one implying a throw is making a girly shot is ladies and children halfway don't approve

that one either we don't it's brilliant and a cuckoo of my favorite a dart that lands in the wrong bed i like that a cuckoo a dart that lands in the wrong bed do you still have it in your garage i don't have a garage anymore oh don't Gone are those days. What's happened to the dartboard? I've no idea. This is when I was about 12. No idea. We might clamber up into the roof. It may be upstairs. Have you got an attic? I've got a loft. I will challenge you to a game of darts. In my loft? Well, no, we'll bring it down. We'll bring it down because you need a bit of a distance. Yeah. Okay. It's time now for our for our listeners questions and who's been in touch with us this week and what have they had to say robin hoyles enjoy the podcast have you considered doing something on the harm down to the english language by football in fact you could probably do a whole program just on glenn hoddle's onslaught

on english as we know it i used to to write for Hinge and Brackett. Do you remember them? They're a lovely drag act. Yeah, yeah. And Dame Hilda Brackett always said her ideal holiday was going up Glen Hoddle. But that would exclude my personal favourite, bounce back ability. Yeah. That's clever.

There was a big campaign to get that in the dictionary. Coined by Ian Dowie when he was manager of Crystal Palace, my team, as we had a habit of winning from losing positions. It even became a regular chant. It did get into the dictionary eventually, but not through the petition, just through use. Bouncebackability. Yeah.

I've got one from Suzanne Bays, who asks about the origin of rucksack. She says, is it a sack in which to keep rocks? Which is quite interesting. And the answer is no. It comes from the German ruck or ruttensack, which means backpack, literally. But she also asks about duffel coats. And she was wondering about those.

That goes back to the Dutch duffel, which is a province of Antwerp in Belgium where cloth, thick woolen cloth was made. Well, it has been made since the 15th century. Brittany Tenhage writes, I have a quick question for you both. I've been playing baseball this summer and I got used to being told to slug it whenever I got up to bat. This made me wonder, how did using the word slug or slugger in relation to sport come about? Answer is, I genuinely don't know. I mean, it's quite a sort of forceful word, isn't it?

To slug something. Well, it's interesting because the slug, the animal, is actually rather a slow creature on the ground. Slug, you know, and you could use somebody being a slugger bed, lazing in bed. I in bed so you have at one hand slug meaning something that is sluggish which is slow another slug as though you're fighting so what's the origin in the sense of a sluggard it goes back to norwegian dialect slug a large

heavy body um a slug of whiskey is probably the same word but to slug someone is not and is related to slog um and we don't know the origin of that slog as in hard labor yeah and we don't know the origin of us we don't know slog but it sounds very onomatopoeic to me it's heavy slog slug yeah don't you think i know i mean i don't. No, but that's only because I'm here to question, you know. Do you? We don't want easy answers. No, always. What intrigues me is how many words we really don't know.

Even, you know, people at the OED really research these things. Oh, we're always, always, always looking. So the work goes on and that's the joy of being a word detective. And sometimes in the lexicographical community, there is, you know, there's a real sense of excitement because someone has finally worked out where hot dog originated, for example. Oh, just give us a little bit of a buzz. Where did hot dog come from? Hot dog began on American campuses. We've just found the sort of first record, so about 150 years old.

And it was just a joking, malicious joke about the meat that was served up in these sausages, in these kind of vans that would come and stop near the campuses. It tasted like a hot dog. Yeah. Yeah. So it began as a sort of nasty rumour. A term of abuse, as it were. This is so revolting. It's like heated.

Heated dog meat. Yes, exactly. Do you remember somewhere called Scarpa Flow? Scarpa. I know about Scarpa Flow. I think it's a body of water up somewhere near the Orkney Islands. And of course, there was the terrible defeat during the Second World War. Seventy-four German ships were guttered at Scarpa Flow. They were scuttled, yeah. Horrible memories.

I say the Second World War. I think it was the First World War, Scarpa Flow. Anyway, is that to do with Scarpa? It is to do with Scarpering because Scarpa was rhyming slang for go. So Scarpa Flow, go. That was a question from Drew Hales. Thank you very much, Drew, for sending that one in. So that dates from the First World War, from Scarpa Flow and the sinking, destroying of the German fleet. Yeah.

To go was to Scarpa Flow. It was. How amazing. I mentioned Drew. He's got a favour to ask of you, Giles. He says, I'd like to share also a Geordie gem of a phrase with you, which is had a way in shite. What? Can you do a Geordie accent?

Remind me how it goes. Which is Geordie? Geordie. It's Newcastle. Lawrence, how would you say had a way in shite? Had a way in shite? Had a me how it goes. Which is Geordie? Geordie. It's Newcastle. Lawrence, how would you say Hathaway and shite? This is a love... Hathaway and shite? Hathaway and shite.

Oh, I do now. Hathaway and shite. Hathaway and shite. I watch... He wanted you to say it, basically. I have to say Hathaway and shite. Hathaway and shite. Well, that is basically your new term for something boulder-dashy and piffily.

Hathaway and shite. Yeah. Hathaway and shite. Oh, Josh, help. Stop. Yeah. Hadaway and shite. Help, stop. No. Thank you, Lawrence, who went to Newcastle Uni. Hadaway and shite.

If you enjoyed Giles and all the shites today. Do you know what we could do with this programme? Hold on. We haven't given your trio of words yet. I know, I keep doing this. What we could do, if we recorded these on separate tracks, then people could have a button and they could turn one or other of us off and they could just hear me saying for 20 minutes, Haddaway and shite.

Haddaway and shite. That's definitely Irish. I'll do my Welsh version now. Oh boy, Haddaway and shite. No, I can't get that. Can I get it to us again? I don't know if I can do it. No, it was great.

Haddaway and shite. Haddaway and shite. Haddaway and shite. Welladaway and shite. Hadaway and shite. Well, thank you so much for listening today and thank you for staying till the very end. It's not the end until the slim lady has given us her trio

of wonderful words. What are they this week? Trio. Okay. Well, if you have an irrational fondness for saying things like Hadaway and shite, you have an engouement so i'm putting in a french word there it's a bit pretentious maybe but i like it so i have an engouement for what would be an irrational fondness cheesecake for breakfast maybe an irrational fondness an engouement an engouement an irrational fondness for something. My second one, some people may like to connect the next verb to a particular person, to gove,

in not old English, but quite a few centuries ago, is to stare stupidly. Oh, how interesting. To stare stupidly. And do you think that is the origin of the surname Gove? No, I don't think it is, actually. It was also known as Gorming, which will account for gormless and that kind of thing. To gove is to stare stupidly. Yes.

And my final one, which is perhaps appropriate for getting to the end of this podcast, to noggle, old dialect, for achieving something with difficulty. Oh, he noggled away at it. Or you could just say, I couldn't get out of bed this morning, but I just about noggled it. Very good. Well, we could barely get through this programme. We just about noggled it, didn't we?

Now, give us a review and help us spread the word about Something Rhymes with Purple. And if you've got a question you'd like us to answer, or you just want to get in touch to get interesting local phrases spoken to you in dialect by me i'll give it a go you can also email us at it's purple at something else dot com that's something without a g and can i just say all the wonderful tweets i've had asking me questions i will get to those as well i've got so many to come to you've got hundreds to come to can i say hundreds don't make promises you can't keep what was that phrase again the phrase i've got to do what's it

right had a way had a way and shite had a way and shite okay you give the closing credits i think mine sound is gottage too yes closing credits are something rhymeshymes with Purple. This is a Something Else production produced by Paul Smith, Lawrence Bassett. Thank you, Lawrence, for your help today. Steve Ackerman and Gully Hadaway and Shite. Oh, it has indeed been a load of Hadaway and Shite. Hadaway and Shite. That's West Country now.

Is it? Well, there we are. We've had everything but you. Oh, we haven't done an American version. And we are international. Oh, I ought to explain that. We are international. We are global. We have listeners all over the version. And we are international. I want to explain that. We are international. We are global.

We have listeners all over the world. And we can see from the map what countries they come from. It's amazing where people listen to this. Even some people up on the edge of Scarpa Flow have been enjoying being mentioned. And if you come from America, he or... Hathaway and Shite. My God, Hathaway and Shite.