Something Rhymes with Purple - Humpty Dumpty

Episode Date: July 21, 2020

What do Humpty Dumpty, Contrary Mary, and Baa Baa Black Sheep all have in common? Well, you might think twice about reading them as bedtime stories, I’m afraid. This week, Gyles and Susie are delving into those centuries old Nursery Rhymes to uncover their - often sinister - meanings and possible origins. Expect ‘silver bells and cockleshells’ to sound less like gardening utensils and more like instruments of torture, and be prepared to have that image as Humpty Dumpty as an egg dispelled forever. If you would like to get in touch to share your favourite Nursery Rhymes with Susie and Gyles or debate any of the many origin stories linked with the Nursery Rhymes discussed today, please do get in touch at… [e-mail] A Somethin’ Else production. Susie’s Trio: Dispester - to get rid of a nuisance Fornale - to spend money before you have it Avidulous - somewhat greedy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up y'all it's your man Mark Strong Strizzy and your girl Jem the Jem of all Jems and we're hosting Olympic FOMO your essential recap podcast of the 2024 Olympic Games in 20 minutes or less every day we'll be going behind the scenes for all the wins

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With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Something else. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Welcome to another episode of Something Rhymes with Purple. This is a podcast all about words and language, and it's presented by me, Charles Brandreth, and my friend and colleague, the world-class lexicographer, Susie Dent. How are you doing, Susie? Hello. I'm very well, thank you very much. I am going back into studio very soon, which will be quite interesting. Not sure how I feel about it. I can't

wait to see everyone again, but there's a slight nervousness of coming out of lockdown. So how about you? Are you venturing out? I know you're tricycling around London. I am venturing out. In fact, I think we all need to venture out more than we have. As I speak, there have not been any great resurgences of COVID-19, thank the Lord. My instinct is that we won't be into the new normal until actually we embrace, in a way, the old normal. I think i'm going to campaign for the first of september which happens to be the feast of some trials to be a day on which we suddenly say actually let's go on living let's start living in let's open the theatres once more virtually everything else is open now definitely let's just carry on i agree although let's embrace

parts of this new normal which because it's been so much better for the planet and for our heads quite often. That's true. And indeed for hygiene. We've got to keep washing our hands. We've got to be being sensible about things. We've obviously got to shield people who are more vulnerable. But the trouble is, the more timid we stay, the more timid we become. But it is strange at first.

It is strange. I'm still finding getting to sleep a little bit difficult. But I tell you what I'll be doing this week in order to get to sleep is I have been repeating to myself some of my favourite nursery rhymes. I've been going back to childhood. I think I'm doing that generally. Well, I remember you saying your dreams are taking you back to childhood and your mum reading to you.

Indeed. She actually came into one of my dreams. She was reading me a story. And as you know, I've got this tricycle, which I last was riding the streets of London in a tricycle when I was six years old. And I'm back doing it virtually 60 years later, or more than 60 years later. And to get to sleep the other night, I was doing nursery rhymes in my head. You know, umpty dumpty, had a great fall. And then I thought, this is something we should be talking about because they're amongst the things that we learnt first and they're mostly very, very old.

I mean, nursery rhymes have been around, well, certainly from the mid-16th century, they have been recorded in English plays. And most of the ones I think we know today will date from the 16th, 17th, 18th century. I've seen at the Bodleian Library, when I made a film about this for the one show, a lovely little collection called Tommy Thumb's Songbook. And then there was a sequel, Tommy Thumb's Pretty Songbook. And they were published in 1744. And they're just full of nursery rhymes like Ring-a-Ring-a-Roses, things that we know today. different meanings have been superimposed upon these nursery rhymes. And it's very difficult because they were very much part of this oral tradition that were passed on through reading and through, you know, sending kids and you to sleep.

And they weren't always written down. Or if they were written down, there were just hundreds of different versions of them. And, you know, there are people who just love to find historical meaning within them. And, you know, it might well be that a lot of them do have historical significance in terms of current events, et cetera. But that for me is the fascination that we can't quite get hold of them, but that doesn't stop us trying. And Humpty Dumpty is a great one to start with. We should probably say, Josh, shouldn't we, that most of the ones that we'll be talking about today, I guess, are very much of a British tradition. And we would love to hear some nursery rhymes from further afield from the purple people who live beyond Britain,

because there must be some fantastic ones out there that we have no idea about at all. And though happily Humpty Dumpty has gone global, thanks to Lewis Carroll, who turned him into a character in Alice's Adventures Through the Looking Glass and made him a universal figure. Exactly. So Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall. Humpty Dumpty had a great fall. All the king's horses. And all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again. Do you know the history of this one? Is it to do with Richard III? That rings a bell in my head. Well. He had a hump?

He had a hump. No, not to do with anyone with a literal hump. So the real Humpty Dumpty was thought not to be an egg, but a really powerful cannon that was used by the royalist forces during the English Civil War. Oh. was known as the Siege of Colchester, in which the supporters of Charles I almost won the day, all thanks to Humpty Dumpty, because it was basically sat on top of the church tower of St Mary at the Walls, which had in this particular battle, a gunner who, according to legend, was known as One-Eyed Thompson. And he managed to blast away the attacking roundheads for 11 whole weeks. Can you imagine? That's how the story goes. Until, sadly, the top of the church tower was eventually blown away, sending Humpty Dumpty the cannon crashing to the ground. It's said to have buried itself in deep marshland. And sadly,

all the king's horses and all the king's men really couldn't put Humpty the cannon back together again. So it's a nickname for a cannon. Massive siege cannon, yes. Boaty McBoatface, Humpty Dumpty. I mean, it's almost on a matter big. It is. And the reason why he's an egg for most of us is, as you say, because of Through the Looking Glass, because the illustrator's iconic drawing has Humpty shaped as an egg with short arms and short legs. Is that the first time he becomes an egg? That's how he became an egg, yes. Tenniel was the name of the artist. Okay.

That's in the late 19th century. So that's why we see Humpty Dumpty as an egg. He was all top, wasn't he? So it's the impossibility of putting anything back together again because he was just one big blob. Oh. Oh, that's very good. I'll give you some more.

Half a pound of tupperty rice, half a pound of treacle. That's the way the money goes pop goes the weasel it's always isn't it oh that's good oh she that that wasn't a sound effect i could actually see her doing it and she put her finger her covid free finger inside her cheek and popped it oh i don't think i dare do that did you scratch your finger did i scratch I scratch my finger? No, but I clearly wasn't really thinking about COVID. But given I'm at home, I'm hoping that will be okay. So, yes, I love this one because it was really popular in Victorian theatres and music halls.

And, again, various possible origins attributed it. But the one that I really like is all about getting enough money to go in and out the eagle. So there's a third line. Well, let's do the whole verse. It's half a pound of tuppany rice. Half a pound of tuppany rice. What's that about? Half a pound of treacle. These are things on the shopping list. That's the way the money goes. That's what I spend it on. Pop goes the weasel. Now it's thought that weasel here is rhyming slang, Cockney rhyming slang for weasel and stote coat. So to pop something was to pawn it. It was to go to the pawnbroker shop and pawn it to

get some money. So the idea is that this person, in order to pay for half pound of Tuckney rice and half a pound of treacle, they pawned their coat. But also the third verse tells us up and down the city road in London, in and out the Eagle pub, that's the way the money goes. Pop goes the weasel. So the idea is that they are pawning their coat in order to fund both the treacle, the tuppany rice, and the liquor. So there's a model to this, actually. Yeah.

If you waste your money on these fripperies like tupperny rice and treacle and popping in and out of the pub yeah you'll end up having to pawn the very coat on your back yes there is an alternative theory i'll just tell you this one it's it's nice it's generally not as accepted as the um pawning your coat one but in the textile industry a spinner's weasel is a device apparently used for measuring out yarn. And it made a popping sound when the correct length had been reached. So the idea is that it was the pop of the weasel that brought you kind of back to, you know, to life if you were kind of a bit preoccupied or daydreaming. So that's the alternative one.

But I definitely like the Pawning the Coat one. Yeah, the Pawning the Coat was the one I've heard about. Give me another one, one of your favourites. Goosey Goosey Gander. Do you remember this one? This is not so well known. Goosey Goosey Gander. Do you remember the next one?

Where do I wander? Upstairs, downstairs. It's Whither Do I Wander. That's it. Goosey Goosey Gander. Whither Shall I Wander? Whither Shall I Wander? Upstairs, downstairs, in my lady's chamber.

There I met an old man who wouldn't say his prayers. Is that right? I took him by the left leg. And threw him down the stairs. Kicked him down the stairs. I'm so impressed that you remembered that one. No, threw him down the stairs. I was given a proper childhood.

My parents were good people. Yes, they really were. I wouldn't have remembered Goosey Goosey Gander. Well, shall I tell you the theory behind this one? Yes, do. Who knows if it's true? So again, I'm not saying this is fact. I bet Dr. Floyd could say some interesting things about this. Goosey Goosey Gander up in the bedroom, go on. Well, exactly. Okay, so it's said to go back to 16th century England and the outlawing of Roman Catholicism by Elizabeth.

And that led many noble families to declare themselves to be Protestant, even though they privately remained Catholic. Obviously, if they'd been caught, that would be considered treason. The idea is that Goosey Goosey Gander in the rhyme was a priest. His geese have long been associated with Rome and the Catholic Church. It's said that in the 16th century, well, we know this, priests would hide from authorities, wouldn't they, in priest holes built within the large houses. And if a spot check was carried out, then the priest would run to the priest hole and the authorities would search everywhere, upstairs, downstairs, and in my lady's chamber. If they found the priest hole, the old man, they'd force him to swear allegiance to the queen.

If he wouldn't say his prayers and refused, he'd be tortured or punished, thrown down the stairs. So really sinister origin, potentially to a very innocent seeming rhyme. But as I said, with all of these, there are so many versions which would completely contradict that because a lot of them are very innocuous. It's very hard to get a grip on them, but it's fascinating, isn't it? Georgie, porgygy pudding and pie kissed the girls and made them cry i don't know where it goes from there but i do remember that when the boys came out to play play georgie porgy ran away yes like all bullies fundamentally a coward what's

this about georgie porgy well again i can only tell you the history potentially the one theory georgie porgy was thought to be George IV, so Prince Regent at the time. Tad on the tubby side, potentially, Georgie Pordy, pudding and pie, fell in love with someone who Maria Anne Fitzherbert, who was a commoner and a Roman Catholic, but he persuaded her to have a secret marriage, apparently. He then went on to marry another one, Caroline of Brunswick,

who he then didn't like and banned from his coronation. And so George made both the women in his life miserable. So he kissed the girls and made them cry. That's him. Who knows? Who knows? It's like sort of Bob's your uncle, although we potentially have a good theory as to

Robert Balfour being behind that one. Robert Balfour. Yeah, I'll tell you about that another time. I'm going off piste, but you know, it's very difficult to say this was the single inspiration for this one. But you think it's George IV, the Prince Regent, married, as it were, secretly to Mrs Fitzherbert. I think they had on to marry. Then he actually officially married Carolina Brunswick. They didn't get on very well. She couldn't get into all that. What a rascal. And this is all about him.

Yes. Fine. I mean, it's not, you know, it's not too far from plausibility, given that, you know, if you remember all Grimm's fairy tales, etc., they were so dark. And so it's quite possible that some of these really grim nursery rhymes well sorry the really apparently innocent seeming nursery rhymes I should say had sort of slightly grim backgrounds or inspiration and many of the ones certainly the

English ones seem to have a royal connection Mary Mary quite contrary how does your garden grow yes with what's it bells and cockle shells and little maids all in a row? Pretty maids all in a row. Yes, I do remember this one. Could this be Bloody Mary and her murderous treatment of Protestants? So some will tell you that the silver bells and cockle shells were torture devices. Silver bells being thumb screws and cockle shells, instruments of torture that were attached to the genitals. Yeah, who knows?

And maids, under this theory, could potentially be the maiden, which was an early form of guillotine. So who knows? But it could quite possibly be Bloody Mary. Are you fond of Bloody Marys? You're not, actually. You're fond of Virgin Marys, aren't you? I am.

I don't drink alcohol. And I'm thinking about this maiden. I think this is a torture thing where I don't know that it is like the guillotine. I think it's a kind of metal cage in which you are imprisoned, in prison called the Iron Maiden, I think. Oh, there was the Iron Maiden, that's true. Let me look this up because it will be, I'm sure it will be in the OED. Maybe there were two maidens.

Either way, they were pretty torturous, weren't they? An instrument similar to the guillotine used in Edinburgh for beheading criminals of higher social status, as opposed perhaps to the gibbet. Is it gibbet or gibbet? Gibbet. Gibbet. Gibbet, I think. But the Iron Maiden definitely does exist. Of. So, but the Iron Maiden, definitely, it does exist.

Of course, we know that Iron Maiden themselves exist. And I'll tell you about that one too, because as you guessed, it's another pretty horrible thing. Yeah, it's supposedly used during the Middle Ages, an upright box lined with iron spikes into which the victim is shut. Hideous. What about Baa Baa Black Sheep? Have you any wool?

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Three bags full. One for my master, one for the dame, and one for the little boy who lives down the lane. I think there were some very politically incorrect versions of all of these. Well, potentially the wool trade, well, huge businesses, we know the textile industry in, well, throughout the Industrial Revolution, but before then in medieval England. It's interesting. Apparently, English landowners began to count their wealth in terms of sheep,

whereas before then, people would count their property in terms of cows. So, at some point, we should go into the etymology with cows lurking behind them because peculiar and fellow both have cows at their heart, which is quite quite interesting all because we used to count our wealth in cows anyway at this time apparently they began to count their wealth in sheep which is relevant to bar bar black sheep but after the crusades edward the first imposed new taxes on the wool trade to pay for his military expeditions and it said that one third of the price of each sack was one for the master, the king, one for the dame, which is possibly the church, and none to the poor shepherd, the little boy who lives down the lane. But it does say one for the little boy in my version. Does it you?

And one for the little boy. It could be a nun. Oh, bar bar black sheep, everyone in the world. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Three bags full. One for the master, one for the dame, one for the little boy. Yes, there was one for the little boy. Maybe an original one. It was none for the poor shepherd who had tirelessly tended the flock.

Oh, actually, yes. Here it says, I'm reading some very helpful notes here in this particular text that until the late 16th century, the final lines of the rhyme read, and none for the little boy who cries down the lane. Thank you to Harriet, who gave us some notes on that. To remember the words, I've been having to almost tickle myself because I remember when I was a little boy, when my mother was teaching me these or reciting them to me, she used to, when the little boy ran down the lane,

she'd do a little tickle you down your legs. Oh, that's This Little Pig Went to Market. Oh, it is. This little pig went to market. Remember that? Oh, it is. This little piggy went to market. This little piggy stayed at home. This little piggy had roast beef. This little piggy had none.

Yes. This little piggy went wee, wee, wee all the way home. I can see you're such a good grandfather. After the break, let's have a break, shall we? And then shall we go back to oranges and lemons? Because I used to love playing this in the playground. Oh, yes. Now that is to do with Richard III, I'm sure. Okay, let's go back to Oranges and Lemons? Because I used to love playing this in the playground. Oh, yes. Now, that is to do with Richard III, I'm sure.

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It's a sweet, sweet dose of satirical news coverage, some of which will sound pretty familiar. He defended him saying he broke the lockdown rules on a father's instinct. And I just think if Boris had shielded his a** as much as he's shielding Cummings, he might actually be in a position to give parenting tips. And some of it is just pretty weird. Air and space is becoming much clearer, Alice. And it's wet fucking because there is no air and space.

It's empty space. So join me every single day alongside great comedians from around the world, including Andy Zaltzman, Nish Kumar, Tiff Stevenson and Will Anderson. Good luck to you. I love little pussy, her coat is so warm. And if I don't hurt her, she'll do me no harm. Now, this may seem inane, but as I think you know, my wife, Michelle, and I, we have a cat

living with us. She's called Nala. She's the cat that belongs to the people next door. And she's been living with us now for several years. It's a very satisfactory arrangement because they go on paying the vet's bills. But curiously, whenever this cat comes into the room, either my wife or I find ourselves singing I love little pussy to her. Isn't it interesting how these things enter into one's soul and come out? I hope that's a simple nursery rhyme that is as innocent as it sounds. I don't know it. Sing it to me again. I love little pussy cat, her coat is so warm and if I don't hurt her she'll do me no harm. I've never heard that.

I love her and pet her, and I can't remember how it goes on, but it's very sweet. Oh, it's very sweet. Well, hopefully it is just an innocent little rhyme about a pussy. There is another one, isn't there, about going up to see the queen and fighting the little cat under the chair, fighting the little mouse under the chair. There's also little Miss Moffat, I've just remembered. Yes, who sat on a tuffet eating her curds and whey. Yes.

And then a big spider comes down and sits by her side and that ends up in a law court. I'm sure. Can you imagine all the historical ones

that would be attached to that? You are. I can't imagine. Just to let you know that a tuffet was a footstool or a hillock or a mound

that she could be sitting on. Anyway, something round and soft. I hope some of these natural rhymes are innocent, but some of them aren't. What were you going to tell me about next? Oh, oranges and lemons. Well, British listeners will possibly remember older British listeners. I don't know if this one is still performed in playgrounds up and down the country,

but essentially children form hands to form a little archway. Not under social distancing they don't know you can't touch no touching of course not and then the other kids form a line to pass under the arch and then on the last word which we will come to they kind of let down their arms and there's a chopper to catch the child passing through do you remember this one do you remember all the others go on i'll try to okay oranges and lemons say the bells of saint clements you owe me you owe me five farthing three farthings say the bells of saint martin's uh how shall i pay you say the bells of old bailey how will you pay me how will you pay me say the bells you pay me? Say the bells of Old Bailey.

What's next? When I grow rich. When I grow rich. Say the big bells of Shoreditch. And when will that be? And when will that be? Say the bells. Says the great bell of St. Mary.

Stepney. Stepney. I do not know. Says the great bell at home. Bell of Bow. And then this is the key thing. Bells in the churches of the city of London. Exactly.

London, England. And then it finishes with, and this is the bit where the chopper comes down and the kids' arms come down in line. Here comes a candle to light you to bed. And here comes a chopper to chop off your head. Chop, chop, chop. And if you're going under that very moment, you're the one who's caught and is out of the game. Exactly. Well, it was very, very old, like us.

It was first published in 1665. And in the rhyme, the bells, as you say, all London churches, most of which withstood the great fire of London happily. And so it plots a journey through London using these churches as landmarks. They're all very, very nice. Let's just go through it again. So it's oranges and lemons, say the bells of St. Clement's. Why oranges and lemons? Well, potentially, St. Clement's was close to the docks where cargos of citrus fruits, so oranges and lemons, arrived from the Caribbean.

And this is why the drink is called the St. Clement's. When you order a St. Clement's, it's orange juice and lemon juice. Oh, well, there you go. And according to the Dickens in the Pickwick papers, porters would collect their fruit from those docks and then use the churchyard as a shortcut, potentially paying St. Clement's church a toll as they did so. But just to add one sinister note, condemned men were also unloaded at the docks and taken through the streets to a public execution. So, of course, the bells of churches might well have rung their death knell. And that could be the theme that goes on throughout.

So the Church of St. Martin's was apparently an area that had lots of pawn shops, I owe you five farthings. At the Old Bailey, as we know, the old law courts, the clerk of the church, was given the responsibility of ringing a handbell outside the condemned cells at midnight, urging them to prayer and penance. I'd call him the clerk of the church. Clerk, not clerk. No, that's American, sorry, American English.

Clerk, absolutely. And when will you pay me? Potentially in that sense, it could be the payment of the debt that the prisoner is about to make was not going to be in money, but with his or her life. So, yes, potentially sinister, but once again, lots and lots of different versions of it. So who knows? But I do think these are all really fascinating. Well, we've been very Anglo-centric, because I think these are all British in origin. They feel very British. And we have a global audience, which is very exciting for us. So if you are one of our listeners in South or North America, in Australia, in India,

in the Far East, and you have a nursery rhyme from your part of the world that you'd like to share with us, either to see if we can research the origins or where you know the story, please do let us know. And also actually correct us because some of what we've been saying, we may have been regurgitating urban myths. Oh, totally. I'm sure I am in some cases, but quite knowingly. But I think in some ways, that's really fascinating. But I'd love to hear other theories if our listeners have them. Can I just also say, just as a personal touch, that for years and years and years and even today if my youngest daughter has nightmares I will sing my bonnie lies over the ocean because that was just

a traditional song that I would sing over and over we knew that it was a long song and we've forgotten some of the verses so we looked up and we found a scouts version and now we sing the scouts version which has always makes me laugh and this is the one that just really has us in giggles always, which was last night as I lay on my pillow, last night as I lay on my bed, I stuck my feet out of the window in the morning, the neighbours were dead. My mother makes beer in the bathtub. My father makes synthetic gin. My sister makes fudge for a quarter. Would you believe how the money rolls in? And so it goes on, but this is the Scouts version and it's absolutely brilliant. It hilarious it's absolutely brilliant i didn't know that's what modern scouting was all about it's fantastic no it's very very good have we

had any correspondence this week anybody been in touch we have so much correspondence i know we always say this but it's important to say this that actually the show would be nothing obviously nothing without our listeners but also nothing without all the emails that come in. It's very simple. If you want to get in touch with us, you simply contact us, purple at something else.com. That's something without a G. A very amusing letter here from Jack. Hello, both. I wonder if you'll be able to help me with the origin of this saying. My friends called me at 11pm steaming, and my boyfriend asked me what the commotion was. I replied that it was my friends pissed as a fart, meaning they were drunk.

We both knew what I meant, but it got me thinking about how bizarre and nonsensical the phrase is. How can one be pissed as a fart? Do farts get pissed? And how does this relate to being drunk? I hope you can shed some light on this for us. Much love and many thanks, Jack. Excellent. Oh, it's an excellent one. I wish that I could, but it's just completely nonsensical, as so many of these similes are. Someone asked me on Countdown the other day about writer's reign,

you know, what's writer's reign? So I looked it up and actually it's not just reign, it's been and actually it's not just rain, it's been right as a trivet, right as a banister. I mean, just very odd objects that have been chosen for the simile. Well, right as rain. Rain falls in a straight line. Oh, well, that's true. Right as rain.

It's both alliterative, but also stair rods. Exactly. Right as rain. Whereas pistas of fart, well, I suppose a fart is the breaking of wind. It's noxious. Oh, my God. Yes, not intoxicating, though. Do you know what?

I think it's just, you know, it's one person's riff that then kind of took off. Do you think it's a variation of pissed as a newt? Well, pissed as a newt is another. They were so pissed. They couldn't even say pissed as a newt. It's pissed as a fart. I was pissed as a fart. I don't. I just don't know. What would you say? What would. I don't, I just don't know.

What would you say, what would your simile be then? I don't know. Pissed as the, pissed as the... He is young. I'm pissed as the night is young. I think, you know, they're about, they're schnockled and schnockered and munted and, I mean,

there's just, you know, there's so many words for being drunk. I'm pissed as a pig's whistle at midnight. It's just a just so many words for being drunk let's face it. Pistas are pigs whistle at midnight is it just a sort of silly phrase isn't it? Yes that's a good one. Just looking up now when the first quotation for pistas are fart is it's not actually listed as a separate thing in the OED but it's in 1990s it might well go back earlier than that pistas and newt would be earlier, but still 20th century. But you know what? In Roman times, I think I might have told you what they used to use as a simile for pist. It was pist as a thrush. And it's possibly because of the thrushes that used to teeter around the vineyards and drink from the vats of fermented grapes. And so you would

be as drunk as a thrush. So that was their simile. So we've had very many over the years. Well, there you are, Jack. Not totally satisfactory answer, but an answer of sorts. Of sorts, yes. Can you do better with this? Question from Justin Boxhill, Susie. I'm surrounded by tennis players comparing how they bludgeon people with good shots and don't feel bad. What is the word for saying sorry when you aren't sorry? And where did the term come from? Oh, interesting. Well, the only thing I can think of is a really old, like 17th century word term, which was merry sorry. So if you were merry sorry, you're kind of, yeah, you know, you're kind of brushing it off, but you're sort of giving an apology because it's required. But yeah. So it's like, I'm pissed as a fart, sorry. In fact, I'm very

happy being pissed as a fart. I don't mean the sorry, that's it. I'm merry sorry. I like that. Merry sorry. Yeah, I like that one. But that's as much as I can do. I can't think of a modern one. I think it's calling out for a kind of blend. You know, the way that we really just produce new words all the time is by blending and putting existing words, parts of existing words together. The origin of the word sorry, the apology sorry, is to express regret. It comes from sorrow. And the origin of sorrow is what?

The origin of sorrow is definitely Old English. I'm trying not to look this one up but i think i'm gonna have to yeah old english it's related to the german it's germanic and it's related to the german zorga the zorgan is to sort of have cares and so that it probably then goes back to the same proto-indo-european ancient root but yeah old english it was quite funny i went to tesco on the tricycle yesterday and to do the shopping because i've now i've got this tricycle i'm sent to do all the shopping that's the downside i got the road like looking like miss marble and with my basket to the front basket

the back and i fill up with the shopping but in our socially distanced tesco there's sort of we're all in little sort of two meter square blocks with the stripy lines. I counted, I was only in there for about five minutes. I counted more than a hundred people saying sorry. Because as I went in, I said, sorry, someone said sorry to me. I then tried to go past somebody, they said, sorry. I then was trying to reach something, I said, sorry. The person who was actually putting their thing back said, oh, sorry, I mustn't do that. Oh, I'm so sorry. Oh, sorry, they said, putting it in the basket. And by the time I got to the till where I found I'd forgotten my card and had to say sorry,

and I said, would you take cash? And they said, sorry. It was a sorry state of affairs and more than a hundred sorries had been said. Do you think it's the British who say sorry more than any other country? Well, let's ask the purple people what they think. Are we, we probably have more to be sorry about,

but are we the sorriest lot on the planet? I do remember when I went to Germany, when I lived in Germany for a while, I did say Entschuldigung a lot to people. And I don't remember. That means sorry. And I don't remember so many people saying it back to me, which suggests it might have just been me translating my sorry.

Do you know, for years, that would say that word again for sorry in German? It says, the Ent is a bit swallowed, it's entschuldigung, but it comes across as entschuldigung. Oh, this is so embarrassing. I thought the word for sorry in German was gesundheit. Oh no, that's when you sneeze. That's bless you.

It means health, but it's what you say when someone sneezes. Oh Lord, I've been going around Germany for years saying sorry, meaning, say gesundheit. Oh, gesundheit. Didn't mean, oh, gesundheit. No. years saying sorry meaning say gesundheit oh gesundheit didn't mean oh gesundheit oh bless they think i'm a sort of latin day martin luther going around giving blessings everywhere i go oh i love that yes that's now any more questions we got we got time for one more uh we have got time for one more oh this is one from david morgan hello is there a technical term

for the i think it's a hashtag symbol. It's that two lines vertically and then two lines horizontally across it. I call it a hashtag signal. Anyway, he says, I've heard it called the hash sign or the pound sign. It isn't a pound sign at all, is it? I think the latter is a reference to weight rather than currency. However, a long time ago, I was told the proper name is octothorpe. O-C-T-O-T-H-O-R-P-E. However, I cannot find any

source for this. Love the show. Thank you, David Morgan. Well, if you look it up in the dictionary, they will indeed tell you that it is an octothorpe. Octo meaning having eight component parts or eightfold. The thorpe bit is very strange so most dictionaries will say that the origin is uncertain it was apparently coined in the early 60s by an employee of bell laboratories who this is what one person says is that there are eight points on the symbol so wachter was a natural but then they needed more letters or another syllable to make it a noun. And as someone who was active in the group, this is where it gets very strange, was trying to get a swimmer called Jim Thorpe's Olympic medals returned to him.

Let's call it Thorpe because it would be unique. Sounds slightly strange, but there is one person who said they were there at that time. Others have said it arises from the use of the symbol in cartography, where a Thorpe represents a village. But then others who also worked at Bell Laboratory said it was completely arbitrary. So the answer is, who knows? I don't think Octothorpe is a very satisfactory term at all, precisely for that reason. It does not tell you what it is. And, you know, it does seem completely random. Knock, knock.

Who's there? Hacienda. Hacienda who? Hacienda that section. Let us move on now to your favourite words of the week. I did think, I love knock, knock jokes. And, you know, I've been sharing a few gems that my, one of my grandchildren has been providing me with. And I thought we might explore the world of the knock-knock joke. And also, actually, we'll have more serious stuff as well. I want to talk a bit more about Dr. Johnson. And maybe we know he introduced some interesting words to the language. Doctor Who, the TV show, has introduced some words to the language.

The TARDIS. The Dalek. Exactly. So I thought we might have a Doctor Doctor episode next week. That sounds good. Do you know there's a knock-knock joke in Shakespeare, I think? We can talk about that. There is. It's in Macbeth.

It's the origin of the knock-knock joke. There you go. It's the first ever knock-knock joke. But they don't actually use that formula, do they? They don't have the payoff. No. But we'll explore all that, okay? That sounds good.

So we've got some good ones coming up. I'll just do one more. Knock, knock. Who's there? The interrupting cow. Oh, I know what's coming. The interrupting... Moo!

Well, someone was easily pleased, even at our age. To raise the game, what have you got for us this week? Three interesting words that are not in our current vocabulary, but that's what they are. Okay. This one just tickled me. I have a feeling it may be on the minds of many people who have put up with someone in their family or in their flat or whatever for too long during lockdown. And that is to dispester, which is a now obsolete English verb, meaning to get rid of a nuisance.

To dispester yourself. So manyisance, to dispester yourself. So many people longing for dispesterance. This is another really useful word, I think. I don't know why it's not better known apart from the fact that it's not a very obvious word. It's Scottish from the Scots dictionary and it's four nail, F-O-R-N-A-L-E. But it just fills a gap really because it means to spend money before you have it. Ooh, to afford a nail. So you nail something before you actually have the wherewithal to pay for it. But it's not spelt like nail, N-A-I-L.

It's N-A-L-E. It is N-A-L-E, although the dictionary does also have N-I-L, A-L. To afford a nail is to spend before you can afford it. Yes. Yes. For a nail. Yes. Yes. Fornail. And then avigilis is another really obscure one from the OED. It's A-V-I-D-U-L-O-U-S.

Avigilis. Or avigilis, you could say. And it means somewhat greedy. So not totally greedy, just a little bit. Somewhat greedy. I think that's what I am. That's why I have to be on the low-carb diet. You are somewhat. little bit somewhat greedy i think that's what i am that's why i have to be on the low-carb diet because i'm somewhat i am somewhat greedy that's that's the problem i can't resist things anyway so those are your words i've got some poems for you this

week some nursery rhymes little jack horner sat in a corner eating his christmas pie he put in his thumb but instead of a plum he squirted fruit juice in his eye. Bear in mind, these have been... Who's that one from? Is that from your grandson? Yes, these have been provided by a seven-year-old. Mary had a little lamb, its fleece was white as snow, and everywhere that Mary went, the lamb was sure to go. Mary had a little lamb, its fleece was black as soot, and into Mary's bread and jam, its sooty foot it put. Mary had a little lamb, you'vece was black as soot, and into Mary's bread and jam its sooty foot it put.

Mary had a little lamb, you've heard this tale before, but did you know she passed a plate and had a little more? Mary had a little lamb, she ate it with mint sauce, and everywhere that Mary went, the lamb went too, of course. Oh, for vegetarians like us, that's actually quite sad. Yeah, Oh, for vegetarians like us, that's actually quite sad. Yeah. We will never eat roast lamb again. Well, after that, please, can you write in your reviews, your questions, whatever you would like to say to us.

You can tweet either Giles or me at our Twitter addresses. We're quite easy to find on Twitter, actually. Or you can email us at purple at something else dot com. And as always, no G in something else dot com. Something Rhymes with Purple is a Something Else production produced by Lawrence Bassett with additional production from Steve Ackerman, Harriet Wells, Grace Laker and the man who, interestingly enough, when I asked him last week what the last television show it's seen was, because that's apparently the name he has to give to his penis, told me it was 40-Year-Old Virgin. Yes, it's gutty.