Something Rhymes with Purple - Nirvana

Episode Date: June 18, 2024

This week, Susie and Gyles explore heaven. Join us as we uncover the historical, linguistic, and cultural roots of this divine subject. We love hearing from you, find us @SomethingRhymes on Twitter and Facebook, @SomethingRhymesWith on Instagram or you can email us on our email address here: [e-mail] Want even more purple, people? Join the Purple Plus Club by clicking the banner in Apple podcasts or head to purpleplusclub.com to listen on other platforms' Don’t forget that you can join us in person at our upcoming tour, tap the link to find tickets: www.somethingrhymeswithpurple.com  Enjoy Susie’s Trio for the week:  Splurgundy (Australian English): Sparkling burgundy. Scrouge: To encroach on someone’s personal space. Sardonian: One who flatters with deadly intent. Gyles' poem this week was 'Where We Began' by Irving Berlin Heaven, I'm in heaven And my heart beats so that I can hardly speak And I seem to find the happiness I seek When we're out together dancing, cheek to cheek Heaven, I'm in heaven And the cares that hung around me through the week Seem to vanish like a gambler's lucky streak When we're out together dancing, cheek to cheek Oh, I love to climb a mountain And to reach the highest peak But it doesn't thrill me half as much As dancing cheek to cheek Oh, I love to go out fishing In a river or a creek But I don't enjoy it half as much As dancing cheek to cheek Dance with me I want my arm about you The charm about you Will carry me through to Heaven A Sony Music Entertainment production.   Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts     To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail]  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Heaven, I'm in heaven. I tell you, Susie Dent, one of my go-to things when I'm feeling a little bit low is to put on the television or on YouTube or somewhere a bit of Fred Astaire. And to see Fred Astaire dancing, either alone or with one of his remarkable partners, who, as we know, did it in high heels and backwards, is just fantastic. It gives me the little lift I need and takes me, in a way, to a kind of musical heaven. Do you ever think about the real heaven? Do you believe in heaven? Did you, when you were a little girl, believe in heaven? Absolutely, yes. So, I went to a convent. So, I was terrorised by the idea of purgatory and of hell. And I definitely did believe in heaven. I do still believe in

something. I just don't quite know what it is. What is purgatory? Yes, purgatory is a kind of, well, defined definitely according to sort of, I suppose, different interpretations, but it's the sort of limbo where souls kind of wait in order to be hopefully allowed into heaven. But it's quite often seen when we talk about it as a state of purgatory, it's a state of suffering. So essentially, it's sinners who are required to do penitence before being allowed to go to heaven, so they're expiating their sins. So you're being purified. So are they purging their sins? Is that the

origin of it? Purging, purgatory? Purging, absolutely. Yeah. So it's all about being purified or cleansed. So absolutely, it is about being purged. And we use it more figuratively to mean anguish, mental anguish. You use the word limbo there. I'm familiar with limbo dancing when you go very low and try and get beneath the pole. But what is, I mean, I know the concept of being in limbo. What word is that? Where does that come from? So that's from a Latin word, limbus, which meant the sort of edge of something. So the idea in Christian theology is that you're on the border of hell. And Limbo was the abode of the souls of unbaptized children and of people who died before Christ's coming, I suppose. So that's quite a brutal interpretation of it that children who are not baptized have to then go into Limbo.

And then of course, it developed the sense that we know it has today, the broader sense of an uncertain period of you're just awaiting a decision. You see you're in limbo. And there's no linguistic connection, incidentally, with the limbo that I can just imagine you doing, the dance and that's from the 50s and that is actually a relative of limber as in limbering up because you know that's what you need to do before you do the limber oh you know so much i hope we will meet again in heaven i was told when i was a little boy by a clergyman who i was expressing my anxieties about the prospect of hell and he said to me don't worry you will be going to heaven. He said, everybody actually goes to heaven.

It's just that the bad people don't enjoy it. Oh, that's quite a nice way of looking at it. Which is a nice idea. Yeah, I think I do remember the lovely occasion where when someone's pet had died and my daughter was quite upset about it and she asked she was about five i guess maybe and she said has it gone to devon which so for a long time going to devon was our was our euphemism but then um now that we do actually go to devon because we have family

there obviously we had to change it but that was quite sweet, I forget which great wit it was who said, you go to heaven for the climate and to hell for the company. We will come to hell, I think, another week. Let's stick to heaven this week. I don't think when I get to heaven I'll be allowed in because I won't know the password. I'll be pressing the buttons frantically. But anyone who knows Giles and tech would probably agree with that. If there is any QR code or a password involved,

I think you might just struggle. But I trust there will be St. Peter at the gate. The pearly gates, which is mentioned in the Bible. It's such a clear picture of heaven. We have St. Peter at the gates with a great big book as your name is in it, you're allowed in. And you step into a world where suddenly you sprout wings, you've got beautiful white robes, and you're living on a harp and playing, I'm forgiving, living on a cloud and playing a harp. It's a wonderful notion of heaven. But take us to

the word heaven itself. Well, it's interesting, actually, in terms of the contrast between heaven and hell. So, the ultimate origin of heaven is unknown, really, but it's kind of more recent history in linguistic terms we do know, and that is that it's related to the German Himmel, which of course most of us know as a swear word in sort of war movies, etc. But that- My God in Himmel. Exactly. Yes, my God in heaven. you know, war movies, etc. But that- Man got in Himmel.

Exactly. Yes, my God in heaven. Himmel is exactly that. So, heaven is always referred both to the skies, we talk about the heavens being dark or clouding over, and the abode of God, which is regarded as being beyond the sky. And of course, in different faiths, it takes different forms. So, in Christian theology, there's just one heaven. Some Jewish and Muslim people consider there to be seven, of which the seventh was the highest, hence the seventh heaven, because that is where souls enjoy a state of eternal bliss. So, it differs, of course,

according to different creeds. But there's no, I somehow, looking at the word, thought maybe haven was related to it, you know, a safe haven where you feel secure. Yeah, that's a lovely idea. And that heaven and haven might be it, but no. No, that actually is from another German word, Hafen, which means a harbour. And, of course, we use harbour in the same sense. It's a kind of safe place, the port. And how old is the English word heaven?

Does Shakespeare use it? Does it predate Shakespeare? Yes, it's interesting. So, for the sky, and sometimes for the heavens as well, we used to have a lovely old English word, the welkin, which I rather love. And that's related to the German wolke, meaning a cloud. But yes, it's been around in old English. And again, because we don't know its ultimate origin, it's difficult to tell quite how far back it stretches, but probably very far. I thought Welkin was something like the roof of the world rather than heaven itself. Well, it's used for the skies, but occasionally for the arch

or the vault of heaven overhead. So it's the sort of firmament, I suppose. But I rather like World War I, I think it's quite nice. I know Shakespeare uses the word Elysium, because I remember in Twelfth Night, when somebody is asked, I think Violet is asked, somebody is in Elysium, meaning they're dead, meaning they're in heaven. Is Elysium a synonym for heaven? Elysium is, yeah, so that's from Greek mythologies, really. And it comes from the Greek, when it was put together with Peleon, which means a plain, P-L-A-I-N. It was the place of the blessed, really, or the blessed. So in Greek mythology, it was not just a state of perfect happiness, but more the place at the ends of the earth

where heroes were conveyed by the gods after death. So that is where they hung out. So, of course, we have the Elysian Fields as well, and we have the Champs-Élysées, which is a direct translation of that. So, yeah, it appears in lots of different places. The idea, of course, of heaven, of paradise, is an old one. And the idea of finding happiness on earth is a new one. I've written a book called The Seven Secrets of Happiness.

Yes. And doing the research for that, it became clear to me that modern happiness really begins with the American Declaration of Independence, where, you know, it was set out, life, you were supposed to be allowed the pursuit of happiness, life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness were legitimate human aspirations. But before that, people didn't expect happiness on Earth. That was for the next world. You know, life would be a veil of tears. It wasn't until you got to paradise, that's why it's called paradise,

that you would find happiness. And blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. So almost sort of those who are humble and submissive and kind of expect that almost. And yeah, just sort of the gentleness, I suppose. So yeah, you're absolutely right. Paradise itself.

I mean, there's confusion with me in paradise. Paradise I see as being heaven, but I also think of the Garden of Eden as paradise and that's at the beginning of the world and on the earth. So unwrap paradise for me, would you? Yeah, so if you look at the Quran, the paradise is a sort of gardens of pleasure, and Muslims believe, I think, that they get to paradise by living a religious life, asking Allah for forgiveness, and above all, showing really good actions in their life. It's a really sort of gentle faith.

But you're right, it's also the Garden of Eden. And paradise itself has always meant that, but it has also been a park or an orchard, as well as the sort of dwelling place of the blessed. Oh, did that come, I mean, is paradise as a park or an orchard, as old as paradise being heaven or the Garden of Eden? That's a very good point. Let me have a look, and we can trace its history. And also, I want you to unpack the word paradise, as it were. Is para part of it, as in parapluie, something that covers you? Oh, interesting. Okay, so it looks like, yeah, so the post-classical Latin was the garden of Eden, Yeah, so the post-classical Latin was the Garden of Eden, the Judeo-Christian heaven.

In ancient Greek, it was an enclosed park or orchard. In Hellenistic Greek, it was the Garden of Eden. But again, it was also an intermediate state where the souls of the just await resurrection, I suppose. But if you take it all the way back, and this is really ancient as you would expect, it seems to be both the park of the Persian king, but also this sense of the abode of the blessed. And it comes in some very long etymology here. So it seems to be from... Yeah, the para bit is always there, but it's not really... Hang on, you keep talking and I'm just going to look at an older source. Good.

Well, as I keep talking, I'm just looking at the word paradise. Yeah. And I'm sure that the para, well, my instinct is that the para will be as in something that covers you. Yeah, so kind of around, maybe. It's almost like a wall around you, which would fit with the orchard or the park. And what is the D-I-S-E then? Because I'm right, yes, as in parapet.

Yeah, so I have got it here. So the D-spit of paradise is from a very ancient word, from the Proto-Indo-European, which I talk about a lot, from a root there meaning to build. So it's all about building something around you. So again, it's the idea of shelter, isn't it, which seems to be common to all of these. When you were saying you were thinking about paradise, do you remember that song, I've been to paradise, but I've never been to me? Do you remember that? I don't remember that song, but it's one i must discover one for

quite a lot of purple people now i apologize i remember going to a stage version of paradise lost the great mighty poem by the great john milton yeah and uh it was remarkable because they were doing the words of milton yeah and there there were two actors playing Adam and Eve. And my wife and I, we had bought, because I think they were cheap, seats in the very front row. You know, some of those theatres where the first two rows are quite cheap and then it got more expensive.

So we were sitting in the very front row. Because it was Paradise Lost, the theatre wasn't very full, John Milton's Paradise. Anyway, the curtain goes up and there are these two people stark naked because they are in the Garden of Eden. Yes. And they perform this. And it was quite interesting. We were slightly aghast at first, but particularly because we were in the very front row, but we got used to it. And what was

interesting is when they are turned out of paradise, you will recall in the Bible story and in Milton's great poem, what then happened is they were turned out. They each opened a little suitcase on stage, and they put on clothes. And it was so shocking to see them dressed as they left paradise. That's really interesting. It was very, very... That's lovely symbolism. It was startling. I do recommend, even if you don't understand all the words, and I certainly don't and didn't uh reading milton he is amazing do you remember the the one word that i think a lot of people associate with paradise lost um to come from there do you remember that pandemonium

oh is that a word coined by coined by him um and he coined it to mean the place of all the demons. And in the first book, because obviously Paradise Lost tells the story, as you said, of the fall of man. And in it, the angels who rebel against God build Satan's new palace. And the capital is called Pandemonium. And it's from there that we get the idea of sort of, well, originally centres of vice and wickedness and then something that was really unruly and disorderly. Oh, celestial. Speaking of places that are named, like you were saying about the Champs Elysees and the Elysee Palace, I seem to remember that Babard, the elephant, lived in Celestiville, named possibly after his wife, Queen Celeste. And I imagine that's all to do with celestial, which is the sky. Yes, I think it's ciel in French, absolutely.

Yes. So, it is from actually the Latin word for heaven. So, it is used both more broadly, but it's kind of either in the sky or even in astronomy terms, I think it's outer space, but in religious terms, absolutely belonging to heaven. Are there any other synonyms for heaven from either different faiths, different languages that we've adopted into English? Well, I suppose this isn't a synonym for, but in Buddhism, they have nirvana. And that actually is, I think, rather beautiful because it's from a Sanskrit word, meaning almost extinction or the vanishing. And the idea is of a sort of a blowing out.

So it's almost, you know, the sort of, well, it's the same idea of extinguishing life, but not in a perilous sense, but in a sense of the individual soul kind of merging into the universal one, which I think is lovely. And from there, we get the idea of perfect bliss. Well, do you know it's perfect bliss talking to you. I think we should take a break and then do some more talking. Wherever you're going, you better believe American Express will be right there with you. Heading for adventure? We'll help you breeze through security.

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Visit amex.ca slash yamx. Benefits vary by card. Terms apply. X-Tree, X-Tree, your favorite anime is getting a new season. Hi, I'm Nick Friedman. And I'm Lee Alec Murray. And I'm Leah President. Every week, you can listen in while we break down the latest pop culture news and dish

on what new releases we can't get enough of. We're covering the latest in film, video games, music, manga, and obviously, anime. Get the latest on The Anime Effect. So join us every Friday wherever you get your podcasts. And watch full video episodes on Crunchyroll or the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. This is Something Rhymes with Purple. I'm with Susie Dent. I'm Giles Bradworth.

We've been talking about heaven, but we've got so many heavenly letters to get through. Is there anything more you want to say about heaven? We'll do it. I think we have to keep hell for another day. Keep hell. Let's put hell on hold. Let's put hell on hold forever, please.

But yes, no, I think we will definitely come back to that in the next episode. But we have some great emails coming in. And the first one, Giles, is basically very politely picking me up on a mistake. Dear Susie and Giles, my name is Dave Todd, an Englishman living in Brisbane, Australia. I have discovered your podcasts only recently, and I fear I may be listening to them back to front or latest to oldest. I listen while I'm in the gym to provide a positive distraction as I exercise. I fear I may be a closet pedant, but I try and keep this characteristic in check. I do have one query in this regard, however,

which I'm hoping you can clear up for me. It seems that the words home, as in home in on, as in a guided missile, and hone, as in hone one's skills, as in sharpen like a knife, are increasingly being used interchangeably in English, including in the media. English, including in the media. My question to you, Susie, was prompted when I bought your excellent book, Modern Tribes, the Secret Languages of Britain. In the introduction, you used the phrase, to hone in on the banter of, which to my admittedly pedantic way of thinking should rather have been to home in on. Am I correct in my belief and the current apparent interchangeability of home and hone is one of the instances where language is gradually changing or am I mistaken in my understanding of the two words applications? Whatever the response to my query I congratulate you both on a great podcast and I will be eternally grateful for your easing of my passage of time in

the gym. Many thanks, Dave Todd. Well, I should say thank you to Dave. And yes, strictly speaking, I used, do you remember the word eggcorn, Giles? I do. Yes. So an eggcorn is a kind of slip of the ear that then goes into a slip of the tongue because we think that one version of a phrase is correct because it seems very plausible when actually we are slightly adjusting the original and quite often... We're like someone going to Devon when you thought we were going to heaven. Exactly. And quite often the wrong, in inverted commas, version becomes the right. And so David's right. The original is to home in on something. And the mishearing is to hone in on something because when you hone something, you are sort

of whittling it down, aren't you? You're kind of making it sort of more polished, I suppose, or just, you know, you might hone a piece of wood. But in my defense, there's only 10 years in it. So I did check the dates in the OED and to hone in on something is first recorded in 1955 and to hone in on something as early as 1965. So there's just 10 years in it. And it's a little bit like, it reminded me of, again, a common confusion, if you like, which is, or confusable, which is another thing coming or another think coming. And most people nowadays say, well, she's got another thing coming. But actually, because the G and the C have kind of combined and merged in some way, conflated in some way, but it was another think coming. In other words, you'll have to think

again. But they are so close in terms of when one became the other that there's virtually nothing in it. I never knew that. I've always said another thing. No, it's another think. It's another think. Which makes more sense, doesn't it, in a way? It does make more sense. And it's a reminder of how important diction is. Well, true. Volume, consonance for clarity. Clarity comes with the consonants.

This is true. I always thought it was homing in, interestingly, not as in a guided missile, but as in homing pigeons. Yes. Coming home to the, you know, coming to the right place, coming to land to the right place. Well, that, strictly speaking, that was correct. So,

Dave is totally right to pick me up on that. And I will be more careful in future. Dave, you're no longer on your tod. You're part of the Purple family. On your tod, by the way, is T-O-D on its own, isn't it? And does it mean on your own? It does. So it's rhyming slang. So it began with a jockey called Todd Sloan, who had an incredibly illustrious career, but then we think rather unfairly, history will relate that this wasn't fair, he was charged with betting fraud. And having been one of the prince's jockeys, or the king's jockeys rather, he ended up dying

pretty much on his own and a very sad death. I think of cirrhosis of the liver, I'm not sure. But anyway, to be on your Todd was to be on your Todd Sloane alone. You're brilliant. You know so much. Well, let's see if you've got the answer for this. It's another message. This is from, well, we were in Australia a moment ago. Now, I think we're going to be going to Canada. Hello, Susie and Charles. My name is Debbie and I live in Calgary, Alberta. I've only just discovered your podcast and I love it. I am binge listening to try and catch up and have so many questions I'd love to ask you. But here are two for starters. Could you please tell me where the phrase Stone the Crows comes from and wind your neck in? Thank you for a great show. It makes me feel closer to home.

Stone the Crows. It's such an old-fashioned exclamation, isn't it? It kind of... It is wonderful. Yes. I'm not sure anybody would use it these days, apart from maybe older generations. I feel...

I got to know it in the 1950s, watching Tony Hancock on television. There was a famous British actor, entertainer, comedian called Tony Hancock, who did a wonderful TV series, radio series. One of his expressions was, oh, stone the crows. Anyway. Well, it literally is, unfortunately, referring, and it was Australian English, actually. So, we did go back to Australia from the early 20th century, and it did refer to people watching over

cornfields and literally throwing stones at crows that attempted to plunder the crop. And then it kind of crept into exclamatory language as so many of our phrases do. We use them as euphemisms for something a little bit ruder. So it is as literal as that, Debbie. And then wind your neck in. I love that. I think it's probably just, you know, if someone sticks their neck out, they are not only taking a risk, but also perhaps being sort of a little bit of a busybody. We also have the term rubbernecker, don't we? Somebody whose neck is so elastic because they're looking at an accident on the road or something where they're just sort of a little bit too inquisitive

so i'm just looking um to see i couldn't find um in the oed i couldn't find the expression winding montenec in so i can't exactly tell you how long it's been around, but I'll keep investigating that one. But thanks for reminding me of Stone the Crows. I haven't heard it for a long time. Good. I think people are always saying to me, wind your neck in.

I think it's more, not so much the same as rubber neck in. No, it's not. If you're being, you know, loud and objectionable. Objectionable and just... And full of yourself. Wind your neck in. Full of yourself. Exactly right. Yeah, we've heard enough from you. Exactly right. We've heard enough from you.

Well, we haven't heard enough from you, Susie, because this is the point in the show where you give us three intriguing words. Susie's trio. Tell us what you've got this week. I love how we've been down under for a lot of this episode. I'm going to start with an Australian English word, and it is splurgundy. What's splurgundy? Splurgundy. And apparently,

Australians really like sparkling red wine. I don't think I've ever had sparkling red wine, but it does sound quite delicious. No, it doesn't to me. You haven't either? Sparkling red wine. I mean, I used to drink red wine, but I can't picture it sparkling. A rosé, sparkling rosé. I mean, I think of red wine as being quite sort of heavy and rich. Yeah, I think I would quite like a light red wine, sparkling red wine. I don't know. I'm going to try it anyway. But it used to be called sparkling Burgundy, just as it was. But then there was a EU trade agreement that was passed in the 90s, and European regional names for Australian wines were phased out essentially. So Splurgundy was coined to take its place in the late 90s. And it just made me laugh and also made me think I'd

like to try it. And the next one, I'm sticking with the S's today, to Scrouge. Sounds painful, S-C-R-O-U-G-E. And I have a bit of a personal phobia of this. It's when someone really encroaches on your personal space. So talks to you too closely and it just takes a step too far, which means I back off and then I continue to back off until I'm up against the wall. Have you experienced this? Well, yes, but I think I may have been guilty of this. I remember being interviewed by somebody and they took me to a bar, which was very noisy indeed. And so both to hear them and to be heard,

I had to push my face towards theirs. And this was then reflected in the interview. The interviewer complained about me, say the word again? Scrouge. Scrouging. Yes. Is it, can it be scrounging? And this was then reflected in the interview. The interviewer complained about me. Say the word again. Scrouch. Scrouching. Yes. Can it be scrouching? Yeah, is that what they said? Can you say it?

They didn't use the word. But they complained about me, as you were putting, invading their space. It's very difficult. But I had no choice. No. Well, I don't have the sort of voice that will carry it partly. So when I was judging a book prize, the Nero Book Awards quite recently,

I went- The Nero Book Awards? What's this? Nero Book Awards are wonderful. You fiddle while you read it, do you? No, it's the Nero Coffee Chain. And they have, and that's a really important

and exciting book award series. And I was judging the overall prize. And at the awards ceremony, I met some of the authors who had been shortlisted and was very excited to meet them. And honestly, they could not hear a word I was saying. So I ended up kissing their ears, literally shouting into their ears, which was not what you want to do when you've just met someone. So yeah, I'm with you. I think I was probably scrounging, but it's the only way I could be heard, and it was a bit embarrassing. Anyway, that's the second S. And then the third one, I'm sure I've mentioned this to you before, not that you are a Sardonian yourself. A Sardonian is one who flatters with deadly intent.

I quite like that one. Is that related to Sardonic in some ways? And sardonic was another example of folk etymology, actually. But for the Greeks and the Romans, so sardonicus, they thought it was related to a plant of Sardinia. And so, the legend grew that this plant of Sardinia, the island, it was so poisonous that it caused these horrible facial convulsions, giving you a sardonic smile, a bitter smile, and then death. So that's what it's linked to. But Sardonian, thankfully, only metaphorically someone who flatters because they have very evil intents at heart. Well, that was rather a troubling trio for this review this week. It was a bit. I know. Actually, I should have reserved that for the hell episode. You should. More heavenly things.

Maybe I'll swap it and be more heavenly for the hell. Well, I'm taking you to heaven now with my poem. I was torn. There's a poem by Shelley. I thought, I can read this. It's all about heaven. Then I thought, I don't actually understand it. Then I found another poem by A.E. Housman, who wrote, well, they were quite complicated, his poems, and I couldn't understand that either. So I thought, I know. I could have read you something in the Shropshire Lads. I love that collection. Oh, yes, I should. I love that poem. I do. But no, I've chosen some lyrics by Irving Berlin. In fact, it's where we began. Heaven. I'm in heaven, and my heart beats so that I can hardly speak.

And I seem to find the happiness I seek when we're out together, dancing cheek to cheek. Heaven, I'm in heaven, and the cares that hung around me through the week seem to vanish like a gambler's lucky streak when we're out together, dancing cheek to cheek. Oh, I love to climb a mountain and to reach the highest peak, but it doesn't thrill me half as much as dancing cheek to cheek. Oh, I love to climb a mountain and to reach the highest peak, but it doesn't thrill me half as much as dancing cheek to cheek. Oh, I love to go out fishing in a river or a creek, but I don't enjoy it half as much as dancing cheek to cheek. Dance with me. I want my arms about you. The charms about you will carry me through to heaven. I'm in heaven, and my heart beats so that I can hardly speak, and I seem to find the happiness I seek

when we're out together, dancing cheek to cheek. Oh, you opened with that, and you're finishing with that. I absolutely love it. And who can't, nobody could help but hum that tune. It's gorgeous. Well, Irving Berlin, he was the best. He lived so long and he kept all the money, wrote the words, wrote the music, kept the copyright. Well done, Irving.

Well done, Irving. And well done to you. Thank you for listening to the show. We never take it for granted, as we always say. Keep in touch. We love you. And we'll be back next week in hell. Meanwhile, let me share with you the fact that Something Rhymes with Purple is a Sony Music Entertainment production produced by Naodeo with additional production from Jennifer Mistry, Richie Lee and Ollie Wilson.