Something Rhymes with Purple - Saudade

Episode Date: May 28, 2024

This week, we're unraveling the sentimental journey behind the word 'nostalgia'. Join Susie and Gyles on a linguistic journey through time, where every word is a portal to the past. Enjoy Susie’s Trio for the week: Desiderate: To yearn for something one once had but has now lost. Listicle: Simply, a little list! Natsukashii: A Japanese word used when something evokes a fond memory from your past and that is enough in itself. Gyles' poem this week was 'Growing Old ' by Nanette Newman:       Growing old is like a career only a career you didn’t train for you didn’t expect and you certainly didn’t want. This ‘new’ career – creeps up on you And surprises you.      For instance You find yourself saying new lines, like ‘Everything looks a bit blurry’ ‘Why do my legs hurt me?’ ‘Why do my arms have flabby bits?’ ‘Why can’t I run any more?’ ‘Why do people speak so quietly?’ ‘Why is my iPad such a mystery?’ (even though my six-year-old Grandson has shown me how to work it ‘ten’ times) And ‘why do people hide my house keys?’      Also you suppose this New career (Growing Old) is going to Have a long run, but Showbusiness being what it is It could come to a sudden end (but perhaps best not to think about that).      Anyway - if it does run - You hope the notices are ‘good’ Critics might say ‘you look good for your age’ But - this is not the role you’d chosen to play. Anyway it seems you’re stuck with it And let's face it you have been rehearsing for it for many years!      When you think about it  There’s a bit of ‘Agatha Christie’ about This new part - for instance Skirts hanging in the wardrobe Suddenly get smaller Round the waist - Something mysterious changes The colour of your hair Chairs try and hold on to you - so that You can’t get out of them      Why is print smaller? Why do you look forward to a hot water bottle at night? (that’s definitely climate change) Also, what is filling your body with liquid – So that you have to pee all night? (This definitely needs more research).      Your new career ‘Being Old’ Has a long list of questions Surrounding it - to be Honest – the part is not Really very well written – And doesn’t have much Appeal – ( no wonder Judi Dench turned it down).      You ask yourself Is the character you Are now going to play Wiser? – no – I don’t think so Funnier? Only unintentionally Like – when you forget Where you’re going – or Throw your arms round The plumber, because You thought he was your Friend's husband, come Round because he’d Found your glasses.      Anyway, how long you’ll be Playing this part (You don’t want to play) You’ve no idea.      You don’t feel the Rehearsals have been ‘long enough’.      Some of the cast (the even older members Have already left the Production) –       You miss them. So – this is a step into the unknown in your ‘new career’ a new part to play.      Will it have a ‘long run’? Who knows But there you go ‘That’s Showbusiness’ So – Here we are. A Sony Music Entertainment production.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Annex. Benefits vary by card. Other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to Something Rhymes with Purple. And today I am just simply going to go straight to the subject that Giles Brandreth and I are going to talk about, because it's one of my favourite quotes, which is that nostalgia ain't what it used to be. I love that line. It's so brilliant. It's so good.

Charles, I get the feeling that you are actually quite a nostalgic person yourself. Well, and I'm not alone. I know this because many years ago, I had a big venture in London, and I was trying to get money to back it. It was a kind of theatrical venture. And we did some market research with a big advertising agency, and they revealed to us that nostalgia is one of the most potent phenomena for getting people's attention and putting them in a good mood. Hence, if you think about it, this was the same agency who made the advertisements for Hovis Bread. Oh, yes.

That had a boy climbing a hill with his bicycle and the bread being delivered. Yes. And that music. And if you look at a lot of commercials, often nostalgia features in them. And the reason for that is that it's something that people feel, people always feel the past was better. Famous story. You remember the story of Alice in Wonderland, and you will know that the story was told by Lewis Carroll, who was a don at Oxford, whose real name was Charles Dodgson.

And he took, he had a friend, took three small girls on a little boating trip. And one of the girls, Alice, Alice Liddell, the daughter of the dean of Christchurch College, said to Lewis Carroll, oh, Mr. Dodgson, tell us a story. And he told the story of Alice in Wonderland. And all the people involved on that day remembered it years later as a day full of sunshine and laughter. And then somebody did some research, because the date was known, and found it was an overcast day where there was rain.

And yet their nostalgia for it had transformed it into something more delightful, more romantic. So, nostalgia. Tell me, what does nostalgia mean to you? Well, what does it mean to me? I think to most of us these days, we talk about nostalgic sort of album covers or nostalgia disco nights with a sort of 80s theme or whatever. So, in some ways, I feel it is rooted in a deep yearning for the past, but it is also quite superficial and a bit of a throwaway. And I am fascinated by the history of nostalgia, which I think we mentioned when we talked about the history of different emotions and what we called them, because it really isn't what it

used to be, nostalgia. So it goes back to the Greek nostos, meaning home, and alge meaning, or algeos, meaning pain. Oh, the pain of home? Yes. Or is it pain for home? Acute home sickness, yes. It's a home pain. Ah, home sickness.

Longing to go home. So that algeos gave us neuralgia, nerve pain, analgesic, not an anti one, etc, etc. So, alger means pain. Yes. And nost means what? Nostos is home. And that's a key theme in Greek mythology because, you know, a lot of it involves an

epic hero trying to make their way home and facing trials and obstacles along the way. So, the Homer's Odyssey, you have Odysseus battling to return from the Trojan War, and he fends off the seduction attempts of the Sirens, etc. And he achieves full nostos. And Achilles realizes he will never achieve nostos. And in fact, his fame can only be, he'd be reaped through death in battle. And he says, my nostos has perished, but my kleos, which is his renown, will be unwilting. But the word nostalgia itself was coined back in 1688. And do you remember, 1688. And do you remember, this was a Swiss physician called Johannes Hofer, and he introduced Nostalgie or Mal du Pays as alternative names for a condition that until then had been called Mal du Suisse, the Swiss illness, because it had been observed amongst Swiss mercenaries who were fighting overseas. And they were going down with this, well, these very bizarre, mysterious

symptoms such as really bad stomachs, excruciating headaches, fainting, vomiting, even on some occasions, death. And military physicians put this down to the, well, two things. One was damage to the brain caused by the clanging of Swiss cowbells, can you believe? And secondly, from an acute longing for home so that their alienation from home was actually causing these physical symptoms. So it was something really, really quite strong. And yeah, so that replaced the Swiss malady or mal du Suisse. And then inevitably, it didn't stay in Switzerland for long or, you know, in that context for long. So I think the same malady was actually diagnosed amongst soldiers in the American Civil War and those who fought in the First and Second World Wars as well.

So it was really quite a serious thing, as I say. And now it's kind of diluted quite a lot to something that can be quite throwaway, when actually nostalgic longing was once, you know, the epicentre of Greek epic poetry and stories. You used the French word

nostalgie the other moment ago, and that reminded me of the phrase nostalgie de la boue. Oh, for the mud. And that, I think, means a romanticization of rough and tough times. Am I right? emotional dictionary yeah it's it's a kind of it's a sort of attraction to kind of earthy basic experiences even degradation um that you will find in certain movements so it's kind it was often called peak consciousness so it's kind of wallowing in mud and loving it are you a nostalgic person i mean do you often look back i don't i think i mean obviously i look back but i don't spend my entire days thinking about the past but i am i think part of the reason i love

german so much is that it is full of longing and its literature is full of longing and they they articulate longing so well from you know i've I've talked before about fervor, the longing to be far away, and just a sort of yearning to be somewhere else or to be someone different. So I think I've always felt that, but I'm not sure it's always been focused on a very tangible past event. No, for me, nostalgia is an emotion rather than something specific. I have nostalgic feelings about the French language. I love the sound of the French language. And I think, I suppose it's because I associate it in some way with good times in my childhood. I went to the French Lycée as a little boy, went on holiday a lot to France. So in the evening, if I'm clearing up in the kitchen, my wife has gone up to bed and one of my pleasures, not a duty, is I don't want her in the kitchen once it's all over.

I want to be the person who does all the washing up or puts the things in the dishwasher and wipes the surfaces and gets things ready for the morning because I now have to mix the yogurt and the seeds. Are you doing your overnight oats? Yeah, I'm doing, exactly. I'm getting me overnight oats, Susie. Thank you for asking. I you doing your overnight oats? Yeah, I'm doing, exactly. I'm getting me overnight oats, Susie. Thank you for asking. I'm doing yogurt. I'm doing yogurt and etch-a-seeds. I think that's what they're called. Acai? Chia, chia seeds.

Chia, thank you. Thank you. Chia, bless you. Chia, chia. Acai, I was thinking, sorry. Chia seeds, yeah. I'm preparing all that, but I do it. I could be listening on the radio to the news, but it's so depressing that I usually don't. Instead, I say, Alexa, play Charles Trenet. Oh, no, you realize what you've just done? Oh, God, I've started all over the house. No, not all over there.

All the purple people. Coming into the room. Devices, every one of our listeners. Oh, you're right. We'll be hearing Charles Trenet. Okay, Alexa, stop. But Charles Trenet was a wonderful singer, and he wrote these lovely songs, the most famous of which is La Mer and Boom. Quand tout le monde fait boom.

Oh, yeah. This music comes on, and it is a kind of oral nostalgia for me. I mean, do you have music like that in your life? Well, I'm with you on language. So when you hear French, I am absolutely the same with German. So I went to see a German film quite recently called Das Lehrerzimmer. It's called The Teacher's Lounge in English. And it's a brilliant film.

I really, really enjoyed it. But I think part of my enjoyment was literally being immersed in German for two hours. And I had huge nostalgia for everything that it conjured up in my, every feeling, every emotion, every sense of being home or being somewhere else, that fernweh, I absolutely loved it. So I think language can transport you almost like nothing else.

I'm transported to a time before I was alive. I have a nostalgia for the 1880s and 1890s, when even I wasn't born then. Even my parents were alive then, my grandparents would have been, which is curious. And when I go around London, I walk the streets and I see Victorian buildings, or I go into a Victorian hotel, of which there are many still existing, where some of my heroes, people like Lewis Carroll, or indeed Oscar Wilde, Arthur Conan Doyle, places I know these people were in the same building. I feel a great nostalgia. But of course, it's sentimental, mind is, because the streets, I think, stank.

There was horse manure everywhere. There was no hot and cold running water necessarily. Electric lights hadn't really been introduced. The smog was terrible. Sentimental is what it was. What's the origin of sentimental? Ah, sentimental. Yes, you were reminding me, actually, before we get to sentimental, of saudade, which is the, I'm not sure if I pronounced that correctly, but it is the Portuguese word for a profoundly nostalgic longing for something which you may not ever have experienced, I think.

It's just longing almost for longing's sake. You find it there in the Welsh hiraeth as well, the longing for home, but it's not necessarily a home that you've ever encountered. It's deeper than that. But sentiment and sentimental, straight from French, but ultimately from Latin, and sentire in Latin means to feel. It is there behind sense and sensation, sentient, and lots of different words in English as well. For me, nostalgia usually gives me a warm feeling. But of course, the homesickness that you spoke of at the beginning, the original nostalgia, induces melancholy and sadness, yearning, doesn't it?

Yes, it does. And melancholy, if you remember, was that the name was kind of inspired by the medical belief that the lowness of spirits, depression, et cetera, was down to excess black bile, which was secreted by the bile ducts in the spleen. It was one of the four humors of the body, which had to be in balance and in regulation in order to make you or keep you healthy and mela um in greek is black or melano melanos um it gave us melanoma for example and um correlate meaning bile uh so black bile and and a preponderance of that was thought to lead to feelings of sadness and gloom and yearning such a strong word it's beautiful And yearning. Such a strong word. It's a beautiful word, isn't it?

Deep yearning. Yeah. No, it's gorgeous. And yearning is, you know, understandably very, very old and it's from lots of different Germanic dialects, but it actually ultimately goes back to a word meaning to desire,

which I think is what yearning is. But actually yearning is stronger, isn't it, than desire, I think now. Yes, or yearning is desperate. I have a desperate yearning. Can I also just add, you know I was just talking about the longing for somewhere that we may never have been. So I picture you in the streets with Oscar Wilde, just sort of yearning for that kind of time and place and fellowship. And in the Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows, which I have celebrated and recommended very often, which is basically a dictionary in which John Koenig, the author, has made up words to match or to fill gaps in our language and or to identify emotions we couldn't

quite articulate and he has anamoya which i think is based on greek so a-n-e-m-o-i-a and it's a nostalgia for a time you've never known oh so there's a word and he invented this word yeah he did yeah and i think that's what you have. And there's also a lovely Japanese word. But actually, I can save that for one of our trio, because I know we've got lots of correspondence to get to. Okay. Well, let's have a quick break, and then we can have lots of correspondence. But there is one word that I want to ask you about that I saw that may be connected with this, and I confused it. I thought it was the word amnesia, which is forgetting things, isn't it? What is anamnesis?

Anamnesis is simply remembrance or reminiscence. So it goes back to a Greek word meaning mindful, essentially. And I think it has quite a deep or profound meaning in the philosophy of Plato in ancient Greece, who saw it as the remembrance of a previous life, which again is lovely. Well, fundamentally, we encourage people to live in the present. The future is yet to come. The past you can't do much about. Live in the here and now. And the here and now means there's going to be a little break. And then we're going to hear from you.

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And I'm Leah President. Every week, you can listen in while we break down the latest pop culture news and dish on what new releases we can't get enough of. We're covering the latest in film, video games, music, manga, and obviously, anime. Get the latest on The Anime Effect. So join us every Friday wherever you get your podcasts. And watch full video episodes on Crunchyroll or the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. This is Something Rhymes with Purple, where people write to us,

and they use our address, which is purplepeopleatsomethingrhymes.com, and that's the way to communicate with us. Who has been in touch this week, Susie? We have a voice note from Nigel Brackenbury. Hi Susie and Giles. I'm a relatively new listener to your podcast, but I'm fascinated by language and love the way your series explores all kinds of interesting aspects of etymology in a fun and engaging way. By way of background to my note, I'm English but live in Germany with my German-French wife and our twin 12-year-old thee, thou, thy, thine, etc. Because we still have the equivalents in daily use in German, du, dich, dir, and French, tu,

toi, ton. I hope you can shed some light on this, and thank you for putting together your podcast series. Love it. Best regards, Nigel Brackenbury. And I love Nigel. I think that's a brilliant question. And depending on your answer, I'm going to start to twang you, Susie, because we're friends. I should be able to call you thou, thy. Should I not? I wish we kept some kind of distinction because I was talking about that film, The Teacher's Lounge, that I saw. And there's a really striking moment where one teacher in particular uses du, which is the German equivalent of to, so used informally for friends, etc. For everybody, bar this one teacher that she doesn't like,

and she addresses him as sie, which is the more formal but slightly more distant term. And you're right, we can't do that anymore. And most speakers nowadays do encounter thou predominantly in the works of Shakespeare and in the King James Bible as well. So, thou is the more formal, I mean, conjugated for us, as it were. Well, it's difficult actually because they were used to express formality but also sometimes familiarity and they they were essentially so if you take thou it was the simply the counterpart to the plural pronoun which was ye if you like and starting in around the 1300, that was when they began to be used in situations when you wanted to indicate singularity, particularly to avoid confusion. And ye and you at the same time began also to be used for singular.

So there was a kind of real overlap between ye and you and thou and thee and it was around the 17th century that thou kind of began to fall into disuse apart from in certain dialects of england and scotland which is lovely so in yorkshire you might still find thee you might still find thou which is lovely and you will find lots of records in wiltshire as well as well as northern regional english it is still used. So they were kind of in regular use, independently often, of the status of the person you were addressing or the register. So it was a bit of a kind of mismatch and mishmash indeed. And in Middle English, as I say, they were gradually superseded by ye, you, your and yours. And those were used originally for respect, indeifference, or formality, but gradually they

became the usual forms in the standard language. But it's very difficult to kind of carve out an exact timeline for when one started and the other stopped because they coexisted for quite a long time. But I wish we still were able to preserve some of our distinctions because as we We've said they're really useful, I think, for all sorts of things. I've worked out that quite a few of our listeners internationally may be suffering from nostalgia in the way that it was originally meant, the pain of home. And they're listening because though they live overseas, they feel a yearning for the English language

because we've just heard from Nigel, who lives in Germany now with an international family. And we're about to hear from Cathy Ellis, who lives, I think, in Sydney, but originally comes from Surzat, though, as she points out in a postscript, a letter from Surzat, but without the accent. Let's hear what Kat has got to tell us. Hi, Giles and Susie. As a Brit who emigrated to Australia 20 years ago, I love tuning into your show and hearing your English accents. I love Susie's wicked sense of humour on 8 out of 10 Cats Does Countdown.

And of course, Giles is a British institution. I love hearing your extensive knowledge and Giles's name drop stories. Perhaps you can explain something that has been bugging me for longer than I can remember. Australia introduced me to the word practicable. Every time I had to study something work health and safety related, which is a surprisingly large amount of times here, it would come up. Again, it is in many laws. For a long time, I couldn't find it in the dictionary, and I was baffled as to why we were always having to say that things were practicable when the much simpler practical

seemed to suffice. Susie, where has this not-so-practical word come from, and how does it really differ from practical? Many thanks, Kathy Ellis, Sydney, but hailing originally from Somerset, without the accent. So, what's a practicable answer to that one? Well, it might surprise Kathy and you indeed, Giles, to know that practicable is pretty contemporaneous with practical. So there's only a century in it, which, you know, in the terms of English evolution is not that much. So practicable is first recorded in 1593, when it means able to be done or put into practice successfully. And that's how I see it. Practicable, it can be put into practice. It is able to be done or put into practice successfully. And that's how I see it, practicable.

It can be put into practice. It is able to be put into practice, which of course can then mean practical. But practical was first recorded in 1425, roughly. And it was used primarily of a distinction between speculational theory. So it means relating to practice or action as opposed to something that is theoretical. And then came to designate that area of a particular subject in which ideas are applied in practice. So there is a bit of nuance between the two. I would still personally, I don't know about you, Giles, but I would say that's not practicable if something really couldn't be put into practice, rather than to throw away, well, that's not practical. Because practical then, to me, has all sorts of different connotations and is slightly looser, I think.

In other words, if it's not practical, it's too complicated, it's speculative, it's theoretical, it's not going to work. I agree. There was a phrase that I heard years ago from a very old actor who was telling me about how tough life used to be for travelling actors. They had to supply their own clothes. They were paid very modestly. And famously, there was a contract.

Somebody was engaged to appear as an actor, and he was told the fee would be two pounds a week for appearing in the play. But there is a practical pie in Act Two. And a practical pie meant there was a pie that was a real pie and you could actually eat it. Oh, wow. It was part of your salary.

You were at least getting something you could eat. A practical pie in Act Two. I love that. It's good, isn't it? Real as opposed to prop, I suppose. But something you could eat. A practical pie in Act 2. I love that. It's good, isn't it? Real as opposed to prop, I suppose. But thank you, Cathy. And thank you for the lovely things that you said about us, because that really made us smile, inevitably.

We so appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. And whatever reason you listen to us, whether it's nostalgia or to find out really what makes the language tick from the world's leading lexicographer, who is Susie Dent, please keep in touch. It's purplepeopleatsomethingrhymes.com. At every week at this point in the show, Susie comes up with a trio of words that you can actually find as well in the program description blurb for each episode. So if you feel, oh,

it's gone before I'm able to write it down, we do note it there. And we usually try to note the title and author of whatever poem I'm sharing. What is your threesome this week? Well, this one, I make no apologies for repeating. I know I've had it in my trio before, but it's perfect for today. And it's such a beautiful word that for some reason has disappeared. But desiderate is to long or yearn for something one once had, but is now lost. So it could be linked or kind of inextricable from nostalgia, I suppose, but I see it as more of a yearning thing. It could be something as basic as a lie-in, or it could be something much more profound. You desiderate for something that is no longer with you, which I think is lovely. The second one is beautiful Japanese words. So you mentioned, Giles, that nostalgia is often sad and full of melancholy, but actually there's a Japanese word,

sad and full of melancholy, but actually there's a Japanese word, which is natsukashi, n-a-t-s-u-k-a-s-h-i-i, which indicates joy and gratitude for the past rather than his desire to return to it. So it's a beautiful memory that is suddenly evoked from your past. And it is just a snapshot in itself and it is enough in itself, which I think is just beautiful. It doesn't make you sad because you don't necessarily want to return to the place that created it, but you are so happy to have remembered it. I absolutely love that. So that's my second one. And the third one just always makes me smile. You will see this often online because a lot of websites, and I'm guilty of this as well, will come up with a top 10, whatever it is. And those are listicles. Anything

that is a little list of things is a listicle and it just makes me smile. Lovely. A listicle. There we go. So tell us about your poem because I know I can see you looking down. Well, I've got a special poem. You're right. I'm getting ready to read this poem because I want to read it well, because it's a poem by a friend of mine. And last week, I read a very short poem by Haley Graham.

This is a longer poem, but it's a special poem because it's written by somebody you may know or may have heard of, the actress Nanette Newman. Oh, yes. Beard in at least nine films, lots of television, beautiful person. And she is going to be 90 later this month, which is amazing. Thinking of Nanette Newman, age 90, seems to be incredible. But on the 29th of May, she'll be celebrating her 90th birthday. And she's written a poem called Growing Old.

And I felt this was the week to read it because we've been talking about nostalgia and looking back. This, in a way, is a description of growing old by somebody who is turning 90 very soon, Nanette Newman. Growing old is like a career, only a career you didn't train for, you didn't expect, and you certainly didn't want. This new career creeps up on you and surprises you. For instance, you find yourself saying new lines like, everything looks a bit blurry, why do my legs hurt me, why do my arms have flabby bits, why can't I run anymore, why do people speak so quietly, why is my iPad such a mystery, even though my six-year-old grandson has shown me how to work it in ten times? And why do people hide my house keys?

Also, you suppose this new career, growing old, is going to have a long run, but show business being what it is, it could come to a sudden end. Perhaps best not think about that. Anyway, if it does run, you hope the notices are good. Critics might say you look good for your age, but this is not the role you've chosen to play. Anyway, it seems you're stuck with it, and let's face it, you have been rehearsing it for many years. When you think about it, there's a bit of Agatha Christie about this new part. For instance, skirts hanging in the wardrobe suddenly get smaller around the waist. Something

mysterious changes the colour of your hair. Chairs try and hold onto you so that you can't get out of them. Why is print smaller? Why do you look forward to a hot water bottle at night? That's definitely climate change. Also, what is filling your body with liquid so that you have to pee all night? This definitely needs more research. Your new career, being old, has a long list of questions surrounding it. To be honest, the part is not really very well written. It doesn't have much appeal. No wonder Judi Dench turned it down. You ask yourself, is the character you are now going to play wiser? No, I don't think so. Funnier? Only unintentionally. Like when you forget where you're going or throw your arms around the plumber

because you thought he was your friend's husband. Come around because he'd found your glasses. Anyway, how long you'll be playing this part, you don't want to play. You've no idea. You don't feel the rehearsals have been long enough. Some of the cast, the even older members, have already left the production. You missed them. So this is a step into the unknown. In your new career, a new part to play. Would it have a long run? Who knows? But there you go.

That's show business. So here we are. I love that. And you know what? You have actually granted me through that a really lovely memory of my dad because Nanette Newman was married to Brian Forbes and his book Notes for a Life was one of my dad's favourite books. I think he secretly really loved Nanette Newman and who wouldn't? And I remember the cover of that book so well. And it just takes me straight back to the house I grew up in. So thank you for that bit of nostalgia. Lovely. Well, and my thanks there to Nanette Newman.

Now starting an old age, we wish her luck. We hope she enjoys it when she hits 90. So that's it, isn't it, for this week? Our little trip down memory lane. Yes. If you enjoyed the show, keep following us, keep spreading the word. We might actually pop into the club room now because we could go on chuntering about nostalgia. We could. And somebody, a little bird told me that you really have nostalgia for the 1950s.

I do. Of periods I've known, the 1950s is the one for me. What would it be for you? I think 1980s. So let's go into the Purple Plus Club and have a chat. And if you want to join the Purple Plus Club,

what do people do? They just sign up somewhere and it doesn't cost very much and they get ad-free episodes and these extra, it's all ad-free and extra episodes. It's fun to do. But it's, I hope, fun for you to be here with us

in Something Rhymes with Purple. Yes, however you listen to us, we're really grateful for your company and Something Rhymes with Purple is, of course, a Sony Music Entertainment production. It was produced by NIDEO with additional production from Dom Tyerman, Jennifer Mystery, Matthias Torres

Solle and and Ollie Wilson. I'm feeling sentimental about Gully. Do you remember him? Long time ago. Nostalgia de la boue ou de la barbe?