Something Was Wrong - S15 E13: [What Came Next Presents] SWW S7 Updates

Episode Date: April 27, 2023

*Content warning: This episode includes discussion of murder, as well as sexual, physical, emotional, mental, and sibling abuse. Amy B. Chesler is an award-winning writer, podcaster, victim advocate, and survivor of domestic violence featured in Season 7 of Something Was Wrong podcast. Her victim advocacy efforts have also appeared on Evil Lives Here, Chicken Soup for the Soul, Scary Mommy, and many more major media outlets. Amy and Tiffany Reese, creator of Something Was Wrong and co-creator of What Came Next, are here to explore what compelled them to develop this new show as a means for healing, advocacy, and justice.Sources: Something Was Wrong, Season 7https://somethingwaswrong.com/season-7/Working for Justice:https://amzn.to/3WwuUBoTrue Crime Isn’t a Fad, It’s My Life via Scary Mommyhttps://www.scarymommy.com/true-crime-my-lifeAmy’s Victim Impact Statementhttps://amybchesler.com/paroleupdate/Evil Lives Here, “What if He Gets Out?”https://www.investigationdiscovery.com/video/evil-lives-here-investigation-discovery/what-if-he-gets-outPetition to Keep Jesse Winnick in Prisonhttps://www.change.org/p/sign-to-keep-jesse-winnick-in-prison-in-loving-memory-of-hadas-winnickSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to something was wrong early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. I'm Candace DeLong and on my new podcast, Killer Psychy Daily, I share a quick 10 minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the cold-butter killers you read about in the news. Listen to the Amazon Music Exclusive Podcast Killer Psychy Daily in the Amazon Music exclusive podcast killer psyche daily in the Amazon music app. Download the app today. What came next is intended for mature audiences only. Episodes discuss topics that can be triggering such as emotional, physical, and sexual

violence, suicide, and murder. I am not a therapist nor am I a doctor. If you're in need of support, please visit something was wrong.com-forod-slash-resources for a list of nonprofit organizations that can help. Opinions expressed by my guests on the show are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of myself or broken cycle media. Resources and source material are linked in the episode notes. Thank you so much for listening. course material are linked in the episode notes. Thank you so much for listening. Amy B. Chessler is an award-winning writer, producer, victim advocate, and survivor of domestic

violence from Calabasas, California. She and I first met at a writing conference in 2018. It wasn't until we discovered our mutual passion for creating ethical, responsible true crime content that we got much closer. Eventually, she shared about the abuse she and her mother Hadas faced at the hands of Amy's brother in season 7 of Something Was Wrong. Since then, her content has been seen on IDTV's Evil Lives Here, Chicken Soup for the Soul, scary mommy, and many more major media outlets. Her experiences, after being on something was wrong, is a piece of what compelled us to create what came next. When we first began discussing the creation of this show,

we knew it was important to keep the integrity of something was wrong's style and mission, while still allowing our guests to tell their stories as they choose. With that said, we also felt it was important for Amy to update our listeners first on what came next for her over the last very tumultuous year and a half of her advocacy. Thank you so much for listening. I just want to start off by saying a massive thank you to you and the something was wrong community for allowing me to share my story on season seven. I don't think people realize that that was only released a year and a half ago or so and so much has changed in that last year.

Before I go into that, I really do want people to keep in mind, my experience is the last year, so inspired us to create what came next. Spoiler alert, by the way, for anyone who hasn't listened to something was wrong, season 7. My brother murdered my mother on September 25, 2007, that happened to become the National Murder Victims Remberance Day in all of America, coincidentally. I didn't find that out until about 2020, maybe. I guess the algorithm sent me other posts about the day, and I realized that my mom's murder

anniversary, I'm also joined with everybody in the country who's lost a loved one to murder. I'm joined in that grief. That's become even more fuel in my fire to share my story. So just to update you on the last year, let's begin with when something was wrong season seven came out. It was released, I believe, in February, 2021, and it was completed around late March. That was officially like the first time I had really publicly on a grand

scale shared my story, all the intricacies of it. I've written about what I've gone through on my blog, although it took me several years to even get to that. At first, I was just talking about grief and parenting. I didn't really have the support to share my full story, to be honest. Eventually, I had to free myself of a relationship, maybe a couple of them, that kept assigning me their beliefs. If you push it down and yes, stop talking about it, it goes away. The person I was married to wasn't comfortable with me sharing all the time. Once I freed myself from that, I had to get it out. I'm a writer by nature. I've always been a reader and a writer, and love movies and I love TV. I love stories.

I love helping people tell their stories. In essence, I had heal first and then I had to release my story. I knew that about myself. My degree is in psychology and because I've done a lot of therapy, I knew that in order to get to that step of really divulging everything, I had to bastion myself with tools and the right people around me. So February of 2021, something was wrong was an incredible experience for me. I can't thank you enough Tiffany for opening your heart and your platform to my story.

That was the first really big step. The support that I received was immense. Your community is beautiful, supportive and loving. I think that they have their hearts in the right place when they consume true crime for the most part. And that just made me feel bashed in going into my book release. My book came out April 6, 2021 to be exact. It was greatly received. My first book review ever was from my ninth grade English teacher. It was so touching. I got so many people that found the story

because they were friends with mom. They thanked me for writing it. Even my dad's brother reached out to me. He was one of those people that I was really worried about receiving our story. I didn't know how he would feel about how honest I was about my dad, but probably within the first week of it being released,

he contacted me and said, thank you for writing your story. Things that you shared and named, like sibling abuse, was something I faced at the hands of your dad, and I didn't even know there was a name for it. So that was so cathartic, it was mind-blowingly validating. And then April 16th, 2021, I received notification of my brother's first pearl hearing. 10 days later, exactly, I received notification of my brother's first parole hearing. 10 days later, exactly, I received notice that my brother served 85% of his 15-to-life sentence.

He was given the ability to see a parole board and be heard for parole. I was given that notification at saying, hey, it's coming. We'll give you a date soon. That parole notification was the largest slap in the face for me. I realized this journey that I'm going on on sharing and everything. That was just a tip of the iceberg for things. I realized that this story, quote-unquote, our family history, this situation that I'm stuck in legally, criminally, in the media, it's forever. And that started hitting home with that parole hearing. I heard within the next months that August 3rd, 2021

would be the actual hearing. In preparation, I obviously applied to speak there. I had never been able to be heard before then. No victim impact statement. That's another reason why I do all these media interviews, podcast interviews, and I'm sharing our story because I never have been heard in all of this. Mom never got hurt, obviously. Right before I was approved to speak at the parole board hearing, I got an email a few weeks before saying,

hey, you've been approved. And I found an error. I know it sounds absolutely made up, but I have the receipt. I found that I was approved for the wrong parole board hearing. I caught the error in email and I wrote back to the lawyer and I was like, excuse me, no, that's the wrong inmate. I don't know that person." And they went, whoops, sorry. So I wonder what would have happened if I didn't catch that. Anyway, the day came, August 3rd, 2021, and I had to face the man. It was on Zoom in In the middle of COVID, the Pearl Hearing itself was absolutely the most traumatizing thing outside of my mom's murder and the abuse that I faced beforehand. It's actually on level with all the abuse that I faced throughout the years. I will give you a rundown of the highlights of the Pearl Hearing.

My aunt was with me, thankfully, my mom's sister. My brother is already on the screen talking. When I get into the room, after maybe 10 minutes of technological issues, which was so unnerving, I'm petrifying to be honest. I get inside, you know, in the chat room, my aunt is sitting next to me. She and I have both been cleared. I considered having someone there to record, but it just didn't align in time. I had to rely and just assume that they're recording.

Right off the bat, it said, this meeting being recorded, fabulous, I love that, I always love proof of everything that I go through. I just had no idea what proof I needed of that day. They kinda just dig right in, my brother is talking, they allow him to speak first so he starts by saying, I came here a bad guy and I've just gotten worse. I've stabbed over 90 more people. He said, you know, it's been mostly for money, as if that justified it. I'm fuming, I'm angry, I'm sad, I can't believe he's allowed to speak first. I can't

believe he's saying these things and he's up for parole. So I actually interjected, even if I shouldn't have. I said, you already did the worst thing you possibly could. You murdered our mother. At which point, he said, "...oh, I could do a lot worse." And he recited a former address of mine, which means he obviously has kept tabs on me somehow. He said, "...I could have your whole family killed." Which was shocking and gutting.

I started crying, obviously. The Pearlboard asked me to mute and turn off my camera at that point, which I did. I'm not there not to comply. I'm just there to make some valid points I haven't been able to make yet. He also was slicing his stomach across his throat over and over and over again and pulling down his mask and sneering at me on camera. Then he says, I hear there are some things that are happening in COVID, the parole hearing process is changing a little. I hear that I can postpone my hearing. Is that possible? They said,

yes, you can postpone it for six months, a year, or two years. I believe those were the time frames. And he said, cool, I'll see you in two years. He starts waving a stack of letters. He says, I have a little bit of support. I just want to move up north. I would love to move prisons. They said, sure, you know, I don't see why not. And Then they said, okay, well, your sister still gets to make a statement. He said, well, do I have to legally listen to it? And they said, no. To my understanding at this point, it's because he postponed his hearing, not because he doesn't have to hear an impact statement.

He'll have to hear it eventually. His disease is going to hear it at like 16, 17 years after murdering our mother. After he asks if he has to listen to me, he gets up and he walks out. That was the Pearlboard hearing. I was sobbing, obviously. The Pearlboard said, okay, it's now your turn to talk. I said, I don't want to. That's crazy. He's not here to listen. And they said, we still have to listen. We will file your statement. He'll get it transcript. And he can read it. I'm assuming he didn't. After that Pearl hearing, the Pearlboard said, off the record, quote unquote, yeah, he

could have stabbed 90 more people, but you know, once you're in prison, people kind of turn a blind eye and they let you get away with things like that because no one wants to be the quote unquote rat. So I'm left with, oh, okay, well, that's that. After my book just came out, trying to talk about all this abuse I had faced in the legal system, here I was being re-interjected into the abuse and victimized all over again. And my brother was being empowered, moved, prisons.

It was just crazy. I didn't stop promoting my book, though. I kind of felt like now I have an impetus for all of these platforms to help me share. A lot of the questions I get from producers or people in the media are, well, what's the urgency of sharing your story? And I think there's plenty of urgency.

In the process, I was gifted some more support in the media. I had a wonderful woman from the New York Post reach out and cover our story. I hate saying the word story because it's not a story. It's our lives, but a lovely woman reached out and she covered my book and gave a lovely review. That article led to a couple more opportunities, including some newspaper articles that supported the book a little bit more and talked about sibling abuse, especially in our community. And then also, I was gifted the opportunity to be on evil lives here on investigation discovery.

That was a very shocking experience for me too. I think that this is where we started really getting inspired with what came next. Once I shared my story on Eva Lives here, that was my largest scale telling of what we went through on a show that gets consumed by all kinds of true crime consumers. I say that because people receive victims' stories in such a different way. And a lot of people are really responsible with our content, and some people are not. Eva lives here aired at least 10 times. It also aired all over the world. I had people reaching out from so many different

countries, continents, each time. I have an influx of people. I have to start by saying some people that reach out to me are amazing. Just like the community in something was wrong. They are supportive, they're saying, thank you for naming something I've gone through. Or saying, you made me realize what I feared all along is really possible. This is why I'm doing this.

I want to give people tools. I want to be an example. However, in that, I'm also an example of how cruel consumers can be. What if you were trafficked into a cult over shot nine times, or fell in love with a vampire, or went into a minor surgery and woke up one week later, paralyzed? What would you do? I'm Whit Missildine, the creator of this is actually happening, a podcast from Wondry that

brings you extraordinary true stories of life-changing events, told by the people who lived them. From a young man that dooms his entire future with one choice, to a woman who survived a notorious serial killer, you'll hear their first person account of how they overcame remarkable circumstances. Each episode is an exploration of the human spirit and personal discovery. These haunting accounts sound like Hollywood movies, but I assure you this is actually happening. Follow this is actually happening wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wonder app. After Evil Lives Here came out initially, I hopped on all the social media platforms because I'm a social media person as well. I liked the power behind these things because they can do very good. But in the wrong hands sometimes, or with the wrong perspective, it can be really harmful. Like the people on Twitter who were saying, oh my gosh, her lips are so chapped, she must be on drugs. The lights are really harsh, I'm crying, I'm parched, and I'm thinking I'm a mother,

I'm a murder victim. How dare you say things like that to me? How dare you say things like that about anybody really, like chap lips equate to drug use? I'll be honest when I read those comments about my lip-sping chap, guess what I did? I hopped the fuck on to that comment, and I corrected that person. I said, excuse me, I'm a human, I'm right here. My lips are chapped because the lights are hot, I was crying for a long time, and I was really overwhelmed, and who are you to make a comment about me being a druggy when I'm a mother and I have a career on the line. Whether that person's comment is out of nowhere or not, troll or not, no one should be making that comment. No one should be putting that into the universe. I also found a Facebook group where someone in the group was saying,

my mom had actually known my brother was going to hurt her to a certain degree, and got in the life insurance that only protected me. And the woman in this Facebook group was sure I had murdered my mom because of the money. She also went on to say she hopes that karma was real. So I found that comment and actually hopped on it too. I said to her, I hope karma is real too. Number one, number two, I think the fact that you think I would kill my mother, my best friend, for any amount of money. I don't even give a shit if it was the little amount that I got, or $100 million. I don't give a fuck what the amount is.

It would not be worth killing my mother. But the fact that you think I would speaks more volumes about you and your intentions with people and what you need out of them than I do. There was another person who reached out to me on Instagram after the show came out and literally wrote to me saying, I am a Satanist, I watched your show, and I believe you deserve to die. How somebody stepped away from our episode thinking that, or having the impetus to send that, is just insane to me. Whether it was just dumb, trolling or not.

As simple as victim-shaming when they don't realize it, like, oh man, why didn't she call the cops? Well, we did, like lots. I've even had men reach out to me that watch the show, and then they hit on me. My favorite response was a man that messaged me that said, are you married again now? Because I mentioned that I was divorced at the end of evil lives here.

I said no. He said, okay, so will you go on a date with me? As if there are only two options, I'm either married, taken by someone, or free for him, like no, I'm a human. I am not a person on TV, I'm not a character. This is not a story. This is me, and I have choices. Another thing that's happened is that there is somebody who is making a fake account of me, and they've actually created relationships with men that have devoted their time and I think some of them money in order to be in a relationship with me and it wasn't even me, it was somebody who is catfishing them using my persona because they know people feel for me. I'm in this vulnerable state of sharing about murder and they're taking advantage of that. It's

pretty fucking sick. On the same side of the coin, Facebook, an Instagram refuses to verify me, so these accounts just keep popping up. These people keep victimizing other people by using my name, and that's what makes me totally fucking sick, because I'm trying to be a victim advocate. People are just overall kind of careless with their consumption of true crime, and I think that's because a lot of true crime is relatively careless at times. I felt like evil lives here was responsible with the way they told my story. For the most part, I kept in calm to act with the producer. I really adore her. She let me even film a little update on the parole hearing, which meant a lot to me because then people are like, oh gosh, I'm gonna find her and I'm gonna sign a petition if there is one out there. That was another thing that I did was I kind of leveraged all of this attention for a petition

that I finally started a month or so ago. To continue with the updates even after all of this, I received an email, two emails actually in the last several months about my brothers being moved prisons. So when he requested that move, he was given that move twice over, actually. When that hit me and I saw that email, it was a smack upside the head. I'm getting a notification he's being moved prisons and I'm thinking, this is not fucking right.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. What can I be doing? The parole board I feel should have educated me on what I could do with that threat. But if they're not, I better. That's one thing I learned through my guests on what came next. I've had the beauty of recording with some really powerful people and some people that just didn't take no for an answer sometimes.

So I reached out to the prison that he's at. I wanted to find out some more information about the station in life. Could I file something? Give me some help. At least, maybe next time there's a parole hearing, I can be media at that and record it myself. Let's do this. What am I going to do to bash it myself?

But took me many calls, to be honest, to hear back from the investigative services unit from the prison, many calls. Like I was calling day after day after day after day, leaving messages, the people were saying, oh, well, he said he'd call you back. Sergeant Blubba Blah said he'd call you back? Sargent blah, blah, blah, blah, said he'd call you back. Never did. They should be advocating for me in filing something for death threat. That same day, I actually spoke to somebody in the investigative services unit.

Once I told people that I'm going to be filing to be media next for all hearing, and I'm going to record it myself, things shifted a little bit. People started advocating for me more. It's just shocking how our system works sometimes. Finally, I found somebody at the prison, who, ironically enough, her name is Karen. Karen was finally like, you know what, I'm sick of hearing all this shit. Not in those words exactly and not with that anger towards me, but she was like, I hear you. This is not fair. I'll tell you this. I highly doubt your brother will get out. You should keep

doing everything you're doing. You have to write all the letters. You have to file everything. But just so you know, your brother's actually under investigation for attempted murder right now. On Yem Kapoor, I found out that he was up for attempted murder. That's exactly virtually 15 years to the day of my mom's murder, which was gutting and shocking to find out it was confirmation.

I had a feeling I knew this about my brother. I had always hoped that maybe prison had been rehabilitative for him. It wasn't, clearly. It's just been an experience. So at this very moment, I'm actually filing something against him for that additional death threat. Hopefully something will happen before the plural hearing he has. I'm trying to do all this now and really make myself safer stepping into that plural hearing, because I didn't realize something before all of this leg of our criminal justice journey. This shit doesn't end, but goes on forever. It's kind of always ever-changing as well. The laws are changing, people are getting out, people are going in. Just everything is changing, and so the healing and the process people are getting out, people are going in, just

everything is changing. And so the healing and the process of getting through it is always changing too. Unless somebody's got 120 years in prison and sometimes as we'll hear so many people had the comfort of a sentence and then didn't. And all of this I really just came to realize how media can be used. It was shocking for me to find the intersection of justice and media. If there's something happening, then the media can cover us more and then justice will even be kicking in more. I'm finding, in my experiences, that the media and our criminal justice system are often laced together. I think that the way people receive our stories in the true crime

spear is heavily affected by the way these stories are told. A lot of productions like to put this nice, neat little bow on things. They love, for people that are consuming this story to feel like it can't happen to them, and that it's all over. There's a safety in that storytelling. Or they're glorifying the perpetrator and they're telling us why he did it. As much as we need to know why people do things, what the warning signs are, and how we can better equip ourselves in the future, I think that's only a portion of the story. Of any story. One of my guests said something brilliant, she said, more in Jeff's, the leader of the FLDS church who often these documentaries are about,

he's the villain of the story. He's just a small portion of the story. We, the victims from my perspective, carry the valuable lessons, but they're getting lost in the content. Many of the documentaries exist don't even have the capability, let alone the interest in highlighting all of these aspects

of what it takes to really survive after all that comes next for us. I think the true crime space has to change. It took me 14 years to get my story out. I wanted to heal. Pealing gave me the ability to consume true crime content again. I am a fan of the genre of true crime, because I think it's important. My mom and I, we read a lot of true crime. I think that I took a long pause because of the trauma I went through and the side of it I had to face consistently and constantly. So when I finally was able to get the story out and I healed enough, I was able to consume true crime content again. Watch the documentaries, listen to other people's stories. It was a

comment actually from a something was wrong fan that said to me, I actually thought it was really sweet. They said to me, something like, I think what you're doing is important, when are you gonna try to help other people tell their stories? And I thought, oh, I'm gonna have to be in a good space for that too. I'm gonna have to be done talking about my shit to help other people talk about their shit in a responsible and thoughtful way. Otherwise, I'll be too triggered. So finally being in that space to consume stories, I saw all the holes. I saw the documentaries that gave things from the perpetrator's perspective. I saw the documentaries try to glorify the perpetrator. I saw documentaries that gave half a second of important people's stories that

need to be heard. Their experiences need to be heard. And then I saw really great docuseries or documentaries that I needed more of just because they were so powerful. And that's what led us to create what came next. With all of those pieces of true crime and our experiences coming to the light as more victims share their experiences

in these documentaries, I had to share these people's stories. I had to get some of these people's perspectives on their journey from the back end, meaning how did sharing their story in the media really affect them? I said it took me 14 years to heal, but most people don't have that luxury, right? Most people have to pursue legal things while pursuing things in the media, just to get justice, meanwhile, they're trying to heal at the same time. And I just think that these people are fucking amazing. That's the lesson from True Crime that we need to be taking away all the time. Where people, where victims, we've gone through hell, and we go through hell, even more hell some of us, sharing our story.

All of that needs to be honored and recognized so we can heal that note that I got from that supporter saying, when are you going to help other people tell their story? I didn't see it as like a, you're not doing what you should be doing now. It's more of like a, you could help people, victims of all types of crimes or situations. These stories that we're going to share on what came next are incredible. They're all very different. Their experiences are different, but at the heart of them all is that mechanism of coercive control that we need to be acknowledging and knowing how to survive after.

Some of these people that share their stories, you're going to be shocked by the things that they've gone through in the legal system. Probably even more shocked by the things they've gone through in the media or in the court of public opinion. But the first step to all of this is awareness. We need to be able to tell that last piece of the story to make legal change, to make emotional change, to keep this trend of making society better. I'm really, really, really excited to share this show with you all, because to be honest, it's a piece of my healing too. I love that what came next will continue, Broken Cycle Media's intention of bringing survivor stories to the forefront and uplifting and amplifying survivor's voices, hearing about their stories directly from them.

And I love so much that we are building this sister podcast to something was wrong together, and I can't wait to see how many survivor stories get told through what came next and how we continue the mission together. I just thank you so, so much for all of your hard work and how much thought and care you have put into these episodes. You have done an incredible job. I am so thankful.

I know you have given 110% and you care so deeply about the survivors, their stories, and your approach in telling them. So thank you so much. I love you. Thank you, Tiffany. I really, really love you. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. What happens after the experiences of true crime survivors have been shared with the world?

Does the media truly capture all the entails to survive such tragedy in the public eye? What comes after the convictions are in, the cameras stop rolling, and the court of public opinion has spoken. Can sharing our stories lead to justice? And is there ever really justice? These questions and many more are answered on the new True Crime Dock You Series podcast What Came Next? co-created and produced by something with wrongs, Tiffany Reese, with host award-winning writer,

victim advocate, and True Crime survivor, Amy B. Chessler. This season on What Came Next, you'll hear first-hand accounts and behind-the-scenes insights about what came next for survivors of some of the world's most infamous crimes, such as Elisa Wall of Keep Sweet, Kray and Obey. So much has been told about Warren Jess, and the horrors inside of the cult a lot hasn't been shown of life after, and what it really takes to adapt. Jacoba Ballard from our father, I shouldn't have to have pied a part of myself

because I'm not ashamed of how I came here on the surf. Ron Schnackenberg of Dirty Money. This conversation was only the second conversation I've had on it and it's only the second conversation where someone didn't offer me money. I didn't feel like it was a moral thing for me to benefit off of the backs of people that were defrauded. The vows Sarah Edminson, we woke up,

we figured out what was going on, enough to get the New York Times to read an article about it. Call your Landry from a murder in Mansfield. I'm trying to answer a question that has haunted me my entire life. Why did you murder my mother? Dirty John's, Tara Newell. There's all these people that don't believe me. Basically, screw you, it happened. Dirty John's Terranuel. There's all these people that don't believe me.

Basically screw you, it happened. I'm gonna tell my story, and I'm not gonna be shamed for it. PJ Mastin from the Secrets of Playboy. It was very triggering, really hard to watch, and every week we had a tune in to see what we said. Charlotte Laws of the most hated man on the internet. Whether it was media, politicians, law enforcement, or ordinary people, everybody was blaming the victims.

So I ended up calling the FBI. Koeha Johnson from the Housewife and the Shaw Shocker. I will continue that healing process even up to now where she's led guilty. That's another step to healing and coming to a point of peace with myself. You'll hear how incredible survivors find purpose in adversity and how they're leveraging the spotlight to elicit societal change.

Subscribe now to What Came Next, wherever you get your podcasts. What Came Next is a broken cycle media production, co-produced by Amy B. Chessler and Tiffany Reese. If you'd like to help support What Came Next, you can leave a positive review, support our sponsors, or follow Broken Cycle Media on Instagram at Broken Cycle Media. Check out the episode Notes for sources, resources, and to follow our guests. Thank you again for listening. Hey, Prime members! You can listen to something was wrong early and ad-free on Amazon Music.

Download the app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.