Something Was Wrong - S19 E10: [WCN Presents] SWW S14 Updates // Part 2

Episode Date: March 7, 2024

*Content warning: domestic abuse, child abuse, domestic violence, and non-consensual pornography.As shared in Part One of [WCN Presents] SWW S14 Updates, Season 14 of Something Was Wrong began airing on October 20th, 2022 and the last episode aired on January 3rd, 2023. The season highlighted the narratives of Kaylan, Melissa, and Sara and their very toxic, abusive relationships with a man named Jake, as well as the abuse their children faced. As the season progressed, it included several accounts from other victims and acquaintances of Jake as well. Jake continued to leverage his professional connections in the media to add validity to his dating presence and in turn, victimized over forty women. On December 13th, 2022, the guests of Season 14 also participated in a SWW Live event on which they discussed the impact of the season & answered some listeners’ questions. One week later, a petition was created to call for Jake to face legal accountability. And despite the fact that less than a year passing since its release, quite a lot has happened. The Broken Cycle Media team is so grateful for Kaylan, Melissa, and Sara’s involvement, as well as the rest of the guests' of season 14, and the impact their sharing has made. We are also grateful to host this conversation with Kaylan and Melissa about all that’s come next since Season 14 aired.Season 14 of SWWhttps://somethingwaswrong.com/14-2/Change.org Hold Jake Accountablehttps://www.change.org/p/seattle-police-department-hold-jake-gravbrot-accountableThe Stranger on Jake Gravbrothttps://www.thestranger.com/cops/2023/01/06/78802686/after-months-spd-finally-responds-to-allegations-of-serial-sexual-assault'Your Pocket Therapist' Instagramhttps://www.instagram.com/your_pocket_therapist/For additional resources and support, please visit:http://somethingwaswrong.com/resourcesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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As you follow along the stories of those caught up in the hack, unearth societal concerns around privacy in the digital age. Join Sophie Nelisse for Exposed, the Ashley Madison hack. Listen now on Audible. Each week on the Mr. Ball and Podcast, now available wherever you get your podcasts, you'll hear strange, dark and mysterious stories about inexplicable encounters, shocking disappearances, true crime cases, and everything in between.

So go listen to Mr. Ballin Podcast, Strange Dark and Mysterious Stories, on Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. What came next is intended for mature audiences only. Episodes discuss topics that can be triggering, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence, animal abuse, suicide, and sexual violence, animal abuse, suicide, and murder. I am not a therapist nor am I a doctor. If you're in need of support, please visit somethingwaswrong.com forward slash resources

for a list of non-profit organizations that can help. Opinions expressed by my guests on the show are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of myself or broken cycle media. Resources and source material are linked in the episode notes. Thank you so much for listening. As we shared in part 1 of The Something Was Wrong season 14 updates, season 14 of Something Was Wrong began airing on October 20th, 2022 and the last episode aired on January 3rd, 2023. The season highlighted the narratives of Kaelin, Melissa and Sarah and their very toxic, abusive relationships with a man named Jake, as well as the abuse their children faced at his hands.

As the season progressed, it included several accounts from other victims and acquaintances of Jake's as well. Jake continued to leverage his professional connections in the media to add validity to his dating presence, and in turn, victimized over 40 women in and around the Seattle area. On December 13, 2022, the guests of season 14 also participated in a Something Was Wrong live event with Tiffany on which they discussed the impact of the season and answered some listeners questions. One week later, a petition was created to call for Jake to face criminal accountability. And despite the fact that less than a year has passed since its

release, quite a lot has happened since. The Broken Cycle Media team is so grateful for Kaelin, Melissa, and Sarah's involvement, as well as the rest of the guests in Season 14, and the impact their sharing has made. We are also grateful to host this conversation with Kaelin and Melissa about all that's come next since season 14 has aired. One of the amazing things that came out of these women sharing their stories beyond finding more survivors was seeing the reaction to the petition and how many signatures that we got. 31,642 as of today, and we started it on December 21st, 2022.

I just think that's fantastic from a supporting the survivors standpoint. I just thought it was really rewarding for survivors to see that support. The judge had said initially, yeah, he is dangerous to you. That's why they gave me a restraining order. But they said that he was not a danger to Emerson. It is so backwards. These judges, there should be a continuing education

for them around personality disorders, abuse, domestic violence. He has absolutely no impulse control. That's something I've known for a long time. So that's really scary when you're sending your child with somebody that has no impulse control. But most family court judges don't have the education or the training in domestic violence.

And the court does not account for narcissistic behavior. I think that there's this misconception of parenting plans and child support. People that don't have children don't quite understand, like, well, why were you still letting him have visitation? Well, I went back and tried really hard multiple times to get him to just have to have supervised visits because I was scared. He only had her for six hours at a time and could exercise that four days out of the month. But even still, he would come

like once a year around that, but it was traumatizing for Emerson. But I did not have a choice because I would be held in contempt had I not allowed the visit. I could potentially get fined, lose custody. All sorts of terrible things could have happened. You don't have the option to just not cooperate. You either cooperate or you get in really big trouble and potentially lose your children. In my case, if he ever did come, then we could kind of work through it in therapy.

It was really hard. Her therapist, she sent me a statement arguing no visitation would be best for her, which I was a little bit surprised because I feel like the courts will do anything to keep the kid with the parent. Whether it's supervised or just regular visitation, they very rarely will terminate rights or terminate visitation. In my situation, I went to the judge. I was asking for supervised visits. The judge looked at me and said, he's not coming anyway. I don't know why you're here. And I said, yeah, but he can come. And it's so traumatizing. I tried to explain that I have complex PTSD and

that it's so hard every month. I'm panicking because he has to tell me by the 15th of each month and Every new month I'm stressed out until the 15th because he could tell me that he's coming and it's scary and Jake actually showed up to that court hearing But probably because he showed up the judge threw it out He just dismissed it and so it wasn't until he hit Ivy that he agreed to no contact, no visitation. I went and filed right away, because he said he would agree to whatever I wanted. Honestly, I wrestled with it for so long, like, Oh, did I make the right decision? Because I don't ever want her to hold resentment for not allowing her to have a relationship with her dad. But the fact in this scenario is her dad is not a safe person. And so I made the decision.

He needed to be out of our lives completely. I think that that is the best decision I ever made. It took the Instagram account and going on the podcast to really cement that for me. Yes, that was the best decision I ever made and he is so much more dangerous than I ever imagined. I did call and file a police report for him raping me before I left Seattle.

Just to be clear, even saying that is hard. I have never considered myself a rape survivor and I would much rather the Seattle Police Department not spend time on me per se. I just wanted it in there documented in case anybody else comes forward so that there is a history of it. But I told them at that time, I don't want anything to be done.

I just want this recorded so that you have something on file for him with sexual abuse. I was given an advocate. She basically was like, I don't understand why you weren't provided an advocate when you first went to court. There's clearly domestic violence, financial abuse, sexual abuse. I shouldn't have had to go to court without an advocate. I definitely wish I had one at the time. I had a lawyer, so I felt a little bit safer. But at the same time, he would still do all sorts of terrible things that I feel like should have mattered to the court when it came to custody.

We definitely talked about it in the live event, but I think that family court cares more about parental rights over child safety and welfare. That's a hard thing to hear when you're a parent and you're so worried about this person getting visitation with a young child. Jake took me back to court to lower the child's court. So as it stands right now, we haven't been back to court since he signed everything over after the first child support order. So that order went through when she was three. She will be 13 next month. The amount was set at 650. There were several years he just paid next to nothing. Going into court, he was behind $23,000. When he filed to lower his child support, he has to provide me six months of bank statements. Going through it, I don't have a full six months, but they don't even

care. I feel like that should matter. It didn't. But there were so many Venmo deposits into his bank account that were like $500, $600 at a time. So he has money in these other accounts that he's putting into his bank account when he needs money, but he isn't providing those bank accounts to the courts to show what the balance is in his PayPal or his Venmo or in his Cash app, people can use those accounts to stockpile money that they don't have to provide proof of. I know that he still is getting money from Patreon users. It's not a lot. He says now he doesn't make any money from photography,

but I know that he's been paid in PayPal and in Venmo or in cash prior. So this is what I tried to explain to the judge. He's making all these deposits and he said, okay, show me where he's making the deposits. So I showed him the first one that comes up in his financial documents and it's a $500 Venmo from himself to his bank account. He said, oh, well, that is from Omari paying me out. It was a one time thing.

And then the judge just moved on. But in court proceedings, judges definitely don't like it when you point things out. So it's one of those things where you have to tread lightly. The prosecutor for the state, she came out with a really strong opening argument that I really thought that they were gonna not lower my child's sport and or impute him

at the gross median because there is financial abuse and she said that there is a history of it. So I naively assumed they will take this into consideration. This is where he's like, I wear the same brand of clothing and shoes quite literally for everything, except for socks and underwear. These are the purchases you will see from North Face Outlet. I also get outdoor gear here as well and camping needs.

I am outdoors a lot. I walk about seven to eight miles per day and have found over the years that the shoes from this brand are the most comfortable for my feet, especially since they're a large size and not commonly found. My reason behind purchasing these from this brand is their products are made from recycled clothing and they fit more of my athletic and explorative nature. I can't comfortably do my job, my walking and my hiking in jeans. In doing so, I helped do a small part to be a conservationist towards our planet.

Are you joking me? You're telling me that you had to spend $500 a month at North Face because you have to buy clothes from there. However, when it comes to my child, there were times before I was married to my husband and I was a single mom that I could barely feed us. And here he's like, this is why I can spend $500 a month. I'm saving the planet. Come on. That's his justification for spending $500 month after month

at Northways because he's helping the planet. Or he can't take better jobs because it interferes with his exercise routine. Before we went to court, he was working with the contempt team where he needed to pay X amount of dollars each month for all the kids. It was just like one lump sum of child support so that he didn't go to jail. That was $700. And that wasn't something that we all agreed on. It was something that they agreed on with him without us. This is after he's posted online. I've made more this year than I've ever made and it's

like, okay then why aren't they making you pay your full amount in child support? So when we went back to court for him to lower my child support, the prosecutor, she did come at him pretty hard. It felt good to have all this in public record what his history is. She said that he's been working with the child support contempt team, that he's been making regular payments with them, but when she reviewed our whole history, that his payments were very infrequent

and he rarely paid the full amount. She brought up that the approximate debt for just my case was $23,000. She brought up how difficult it is to assess his income because he does freelance work and jumps from project to project. He never sticks with the same thing for a long term. He's had a photography business, a marketing and production business. He sells things on Craigslist and he was a hairstylist. And at that time he was choosing not to pursue that.

She said that he appears to prefer jobs where garnishment is a challenge or completely unavailable. The prosecutor said, we do have some history in this case of financial abuse and manipulation that should be taken into consideration. She also said that there's a history of him living off one girlfriend after another after another and has been extremely selective in the work that he does. All of these things, the state currently considers to be a luxury. In this case, the state's position

is when you are legally responsible for supporting a child, your first obligation is to get steady money in the door. It really is a luxury that few people can afford to make sure that their job fits all of their needs, making sure that they are happy and that they're being creatively stimulated. The father is creating a pattern

of not entirely invading child support, but evading the full payment of child support. After her opening argument, she did say, she was hoping this would create special circumstances so that even if they went with the lower amount, which was $421, so from $650 to $421, that he would have to pay an additional amount to go to the back amount because it was so large. So we go through the whole court proceeding. It's quite a while. We both have our cameras on so we can see each other. That was uncomfortable because I obviously

don't want him to see me. He basically blamed Melissa and I for ruining his life. He did bring up that he lives with his girlfriend and their son. With that said, I worry that son is potentially in danger of his temper. In the final orders, the official judgment is they lowered it to 421 from 650, but he has to pay an additional $150 each month that goes toward the back amount. I think the prosecutor wasn't fully aware that this is not possible for it to go to me alone, so I see $77 of it and the rest of it goes to Melissa and the other mom. The court took judicial notice of the fact that the father owes excessive $23,000 in

back child support, in this case alone. Therefore the transfer payment will be a total of $571 each month until further ordered by the court, which means he now has to pay $850 each month instead of the $700 that he was being told he had to pay. I was going to ask, does he have to pay off the $23,000 until she is 18 forever? It's actually forever. He has to pay because he agreed to waive. Normally it would be until they graduate from high school, but in order for him to get his passport, he said,

I'll pay until whenever, so long as I can get my passport. That actually really worked in our favor because he does owe me so much money that he's going to be paying it probably for the rest of his life. He has to or he'll go to jail. But each state is different. It's been with contempt of court already for the last three years or something. It's been longer than that, because it was before 2020.

With the prosecutor's office, right? Yeah. What if your partner developed 21 new identities? Or you discovered that your friend who helped you through the darkest times was actually a conniving con artist? Or what if you began seeing demons everywhere and happening people around you, including your son? What would you do?

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Because once again, Mr. Ball and Podcast, Strange, Dark, and Mysterious stories is available everywhere you get your podcasts. Each week on the Mr. Ball and Podcast, you'll hear new stories about inexplicable encounters, shocking disappearances, true crime cases, and everything in between. Like our recent episode titled White Dust. After a middle-aged couple fail to answer their daughter's messages and calls, the daughter drives the few hours to her parents' house to check on them. But after arriving and seeing both her parents' cars in the driveway, the daughter gets an

uneasy feeling and just can't stomach going inside. To hear the rest of that story and hear hundreds more stories like it, follow Mr. Ballin podcast on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Prime members can listen early and at free on Amazon Music. Jake preemptively discredited us so that he would be the victim so that when something did happen, then nobody believed us.

One of the unfortunate truths is abusers often hide pretending to be the victim. I think that's one of the things that kept Kailin and I so silent for so many years. He preemptively had made himself out to be the victim. We all had the narratives attached to us. Kailin was the bitter, crazy ex. I was the obsessed stalker.

Mimi was the abuser. He had these narratives to who we were and he preemptively convinced everyone that he was a victim of us so that if we did go to them and tell them the truth, they think we're the abuser and they think he's a victim. I think in a way that it's a hard conversation to have because those people believed that he was a victim

and they didn't question him. I don't know the right way to have that conversation, but the truth is that sometimes abusers do hide as victims and it's another way that they further victimize their true victims. I think that would be a good leeway into the MXPX stuff because it's exactly what Jake did. He played himself to be the victim to so many different people that we stopped even trying to like speak out in his court statement with Kalen's child support stuff. He actually talked about how we've had

this decade long campaign against him. I kind of laughed at that because Kailin and I for the most part, we never spoke out publicly against him. And Instagram was the first time that we publicly shared our stories. We weren't sharing that online. We weren't running around telling people.

The last person that we tried to warn was Mimi. The only other person that we tried to warn was Mike Herrera from MXPX. Kalen's boyfriend had connection to him. We were concerned because Jake had already assaulted Ivy at that point and Mike was bringing Jake in to stay at his house around his little tiny kids. And we thought, oh man, if that was me, I wouldn't want someone to tell me that this person isn't safe. It was absolutely ridiculous. The response.

Their response was that they already knew about it ahead of time. And so this was nothing new. They were kind of expecting to hear from us and that he had been blackmailed by us into pleading guilty. The most shocking part to me was within the first few sentences, I recall it saying something to the tune of, we've been expecting this message. I just thought, wow, that's your opener. It was so embittered. This was his manager at the time that

responded right, not him himself, just to be clear. They were talking to the manager and then I spoke with somebody else in the band. And they said, here's what happened. He said something prior. He said that you guys blackmailed him into pleading guilty. And he feared for his life. He framed it as he didn't even commit the crime that one of us actually hit her and we framed him.

And I was like, that's the craziest shit I've ever heard. And I sent them all of the court paperwork. He said he was going to show the rest of them, but Jake still was around. My career has never, ever come forward and said anything about Jake, ever. Or responded to my request for comment, to be clear. I did reach out to him and he did not respond.

But I think it shows what he would do. Preemptively discredit us or say that I was crazy or I'm just mad because he cheated on me and got somebody else pregnant. No, I'm concerned that you're going to do what you did to me to somebody else or I'm concerned that you're going to hurt another child. I just think it's one of those things where it keeps the actual person that's been abused or the victim quiet because they learn really quick that if they say something, they're not going to be believed because that person has already come up with a story ahead of time.

One tactic that I recently learned about that a lot of narcissists, especially coercive narcissists or abusers uses called darvo. And it means deny, attack, reverse, victim and offender. Jake loves this. Basically it's a consistent reaction and manipulation tactic used by perpetrators of abuse or other types of wrongdoing. It works by shifting the focus away from the original issue and attacking the actual victim. It attempts to switch the roles of the victim

and the perpetrator to allow the actual offender to receive sympathy and compassion publicly or privately as well as to avoid consequences for their actions. Deny attack, reverse, victim and offender. I can't tell you the amount of times that I've heard something like that. And I was like, holy shit, that's what he did. victim and defender. I'm still learning so much and I feel like I know a lot about this subject. But then I hear something like this and I'm like, of course. While we're on the topic, I saw this TikTok that was shared on Instagram and it's by a

therapist called your underscore pocket underscore therapist and she's talking about why and I think this can be applicable here. One of the reasons that it's hard to walk away from emotionally unavailable people is that you get this dopamine response that's really uneven. The example she gives is somebody pulling a slot machine. You sit there and you pull it and you pull it and you pull it. And then when you finally win, you get this huge spike of dopamine. And that is more physically addicting to your body than somebody giving you consistent love slash dopamine over a steady period of time with secure attachment.

That's what makes it so difficult, oftentimes, for people to break out of the cycles with an emotionally unavailable or abusive person, not only just all the manipulation tactics, all the abuse tactics that we're discussing here, but also those physical manifestations, the literal dopamine release that you get when that person texts you or when they call you, the way they make you feel in between those moments where they're gaslighting you or ignoring you, physically has effects on your body. We're always learning about that science too. To add to what Tiffany was saying, my therapist had told me it's very similar to what the

brain goes through like with a gambling addiction. People in abusive relationships, it's almost like the same type of addiction. They would start teaching these mice to like press a button to get a piece of food. And when they first started, they'd get one piece of food for every time they would press this button with their nose. Then over time they would make it so it did it only every other time. And then like every five times and then 20 times. They did this over and over again until they were literally up to where this mouse would have to press this button like hundreds of times to get one piece of food. And they were hurting themselves pressing this button for that one payout of that one

piece of food because they were now addicted to this process. It did something to their brains where now it's an addiction. The payout is such a high that it's worth it for them to hurt themselves over and over and over again for that one payout of that one small piece of food. Also what you're describing, that's behavior modification. In essence, what they're doing is they're grooming us to stay in that narcissistic relationship. Not only is it an addiction if you're looking at it one way, but also it's almost like they're modifying and ingraining that behavior.

There's all these different ways that abuse and different attachment styles can really influence the way it impacts victims and the reasons why the average time of leaving is seven times before someone gets out of an abusive relationship if they're lucky. Absolutely, but I think that's what's so great about this podcast.

We learned so much. I know I learned so much from what Melissa's therapist told her. But think about all the people that are in situations like I was in that are seeing a therapist and that therapist doesn't know anything about narcissists. I don't think that there's very many therapists, unfortunately, that understand this behavior. Melissa went to therapy and she was able to learn all these things about narcissists and gaslighting. But I went to therapy at the same time and my therapist knew nothing about that. I think in general, we understand the terms, but do we always know what to look for or do we always know why we are doing certain things?

The education pieces, we're still learning so much. I'm really lucky because I haven't had any contact with him. It's almost seven years now. The last contact indirectly that I had was right before that live event, which I don't know why the live event was such a thorn in his side. He didn't seem to have a problem with the actual podcast, but us going on that live was too much for him. So that was the last actual interaction, court-wise, that I've had with him. I did want to talk about that we have had more people reach out to us since the podcast aired.

We've had other women come forward. We've had some of his former coworkers. I even had a couple of his friends from high school reach out to me. More of those stories of I had a bad experience with him and ended our friendship and never really thought about it again. It really speaks to the type of person that he is that he's been pulling stuff like this and just screwing people over for so many

decades. One of the women that had contacted us she had an ongoing on and off casual relationship that went on for over a decade through all of this. So we kind of know that there's still probably so many women out there that we probably will never even know about. I can't even imagine the scope of how far his reach was, but I'm just thankful that the information is out there now. We don't have to continue to tell our stories over and over again. It's out there.

He can't run from it. He can't run from it. He can't hide from it. You Google him. All of this comes up. The change petition comes up. The stranger article comes up. All of it comes up. There's nothing that he can do that he can hide from that. He can try and change his name from Jake to Jacob. It still comes up. So he can't lie about all of this stuff the way that he did before. I think on some level he's always going to be manipulating people and we can't obviously stop all of that, but we were able to put the truth out there. At the very least, anybody that is googling him can now make an informed decision about who he is. I noticed a major difference in myself when I was in Seattle last.

I went in August with my husband. I had been a couple of times prior to that after I moved, but this was the first time I'd been back and felt safe. I think part of that is having my husband with me, but I do think that I wasn't as anxious. I wasn't looking over my shoulder. I wasn't like, oh my God, what if I see him or is he going to track me down? I just didn't feel scared anymore. And I think it came from sharing my story. It didn't have as much of a hold on me anymore. This season on a personal note, working on it with the survivors and the relationship that I

got to build with them, the trust we were able to build and the care that they brought was one of the joys of my lifetime from a creator standpoint. They were like the dream to work with both professionally and personally. You want everybody to get it and support them the way that I feel that they deserve to be supported. And it was hard to see them grappling with those things. But they're so strong. I feel like their strength and their ability to take people's public opinions in stride and continue to know who they were and stay

centered and who they are was extremely inspiring to me and helped contribute to me having the nerve to share my own story on my season later. So you're not only strong for what you survive and brave for being able to tell it. It takes a very strong brave person and a lot of people were moved and inspired by that. I don't think you'll ever even be capable to know the full extent of the positive impact that you have made. I just want to say that is one of the joys of my life working together with you guys on this season. The best part of all of this is that my daughter has aunties in all of you and Sarah, that she just has more people that love her. And with her background with Jake, I feel like the more people that are in her

life loving on her, the better. I'm incredibly proud of her. She just started seventh grade and is volunteering at the library, is doing ASB and is in all honors classes, has straight A's and she's just crushing it. She's empathetic and it's a testament to all the people that are around her that have helped raise her that that has overshadowed any type of nature that might come through? No, she's fantastic. She is an incredible little human being. Kaylin and Melissa, you're both just incredible parents. And I get to not only see you, but your children and the incredible mothers and parents you

are. You have such a fantastic community. And I know I've said this a million times, but I just love the way that you keep them in each other's lives and really foster that relationship. That human connection and support is so important and has far-reaching positive effects, not only to them, but I think the world and just other people who also get to see it and how beautiful it is. Yeah, I'm really thankful for the whole community that our girls have. It's a hard situation for them to grow up in. They're going to live within this forever, but I feel like the positive so far

outweighs any negative that has come from it. The relationship that Emerson and Ivy have is The relationship that Emerson and Ivy have is so wholesome and healthy. They love each other so much and I'm just so thankful to Kaelin that we can continue to foster that and help it grow. I can't say enough positive about the community that we've created, especially for the girls. That's so powerful and I also think that speaks to what you did for the other people that were messaging you in your sharing. Not only did you bring awareness to your friends and family, and they might navigate other relationships differently with more awareness, but you also gave that gift to other people. Not everybody can share their experiences on a podcast.

Got themselves, lay all this out there, those people messaging you, that was their liberation in sharing. Look how much freedom you've caused in that. Thank you guys again so much for being willing to do this and thank you for being in my life. One of the greatest things about being able to share my own story after doing the season with y'all was being able to receive y'all's love and support, whether it be seeing you guys in person and you sharing a kind word or sending me a text message or Sarah, she couldn't be with us today due to her busy work schedule. Shout out to Sarah.

She'd send me a text just checking on me throughout the season. It means an incredible amount to me. And I know Amy's gotten to get together in person and y'all are now friends as well. And it's a really, really beautiful perk of a very shitty traumatic situation. I just feel incredibly blessed to have y'all in my life. Honored still to this day that you trusted me to do this with you. I'm going to get emotional, but I recently saw those street interviews that you see on Instagram and it was this street interviewer asking this random dude, what's the weirdest

thing that happened to you? And it was this young kid and he had had a traumatic brain injury of some kind and he was in a coma. He literally died for several minutes and came back to life and he's like 26 years old. And this guy's like, wow, totally caught off guard. And he's like, can you explain to people who have never experienced it? What happened to you when you died?

He was like, there was the warm light, but I saw this video presentation of every happy moment that flashed before my eyes in my life. I didn't think about anything negative or any regrets. I just saw all the people who made me feel the best and the warmest, the highlights of my life and the best parts. You guys are a part of that. I truly mean that in the most genuine way. I just think what you have done, not only for me, but the universe is very significant.

There's not enough thank yous in the world. I think that we all feel the same, really grateful that we were able to accomplish what we set out for and we couldn't have done that without you. It's a privilege. You guys are amazing people and it's just wild that something so shitty can bring also so much joy to and it's just a surprising benefit of this process. Absolutely, and I want to say thank you ladies for trusting Tiffany so deeply that you would trust me

to then open this wound again. You are deeply appreciated. I've loved getting to know both of you and the kids and the dogs. Thank you for having us on and giving us an opportunity to further educate and talk about the things that are important to us. We're both just so grateful for being given a platform

that we could have shared and just hoping that that could reach anybody that it needed to. Thank you to both of you. For more Something Was Wrong updates and other impactful survivor interviews, please head to What Came Next wherever you listen to podcasts. What Came Next is a broken-cycle media production co-produced by Amy B. Chesler and Tiffany Rees.

If you'd like to help support What Came Next, you can leave us a positive review, support our sponsors, or follow BrokenCycleMedia on Instagram at brokencyclemedia. Check out the episode notes for sources, resources, and to follow our guests. Thank you again for listening. Hey, Prime members. You can listen to something was wrong early and add free on Amazon Music. Download the app today.

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