Something Was Wrong - S5 E15: Political Gaslighting | Featuring Stephanie Moulton Sarkis, PhD

Episode Date: October 19, 2020

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Let it go. Let it go. Let it go. Let it go. Hi, friends. I am so excited. And if you follow me on Instagram, you already know I am speaking today with Dr. Stephanie Moulton Sargas, who if you've been a podcast listener for a long time, you might recognize her name because she

wrote the book, Gaslighting Recognizing Manipulative and Emotionally Abusive People and Break Free. So first of all, welcome Dr. Can I call you Dr. Stephanie? You can just call me Stephanie, that's not me. Yeah, that's not it. Stephanie? Yeah, that's great. Awesome. So welcome to the podcast.

I think it's so cool how we kind of like happen to just connect. Yeah, that was a little while. Yeah, yeah, because there's a friend of yours, I think, right? Yes, it's connected us. Yes, so my friend Jill had written a tweet that went viral about essentially gaslighting of the administration and she had a huge response from people that felt that that really resonated with them. And people were asking her for further information on gaslighting. And so she had reached out to me knowing that I had talked about this

at large on the podcast. And she recommended your book. And then we got connected and you said you would be on the podcast. and I instantly was just like freaking out so excited I think I literally sleep I Actually, I actually squeed my husband about it. Honestly, because I was like She does be a podcast. It's so amazing See this great episode. Yeah, so I was like look at this podcast. This is great I also was like woohoo, and I was so excited that we're recording today. So thank you.

So thank you. Thank you. And it's kind of like wild timing because a few weeks ago I had posted on Instagram and with everything going on with the election. I'm just like, I wish that I could find a doctor that would talk to me or a psychotherapist that could talk to me about the gaslighting

and the red flags that I'm seeing, it's almost like politics aside, it's the behaviors. And for myself, I grew up with a father with anti-social personality disorder, which I didn't find out till later in life. And I have to tell you the first time I saw Donald Trump speak, I turned to my husband. I said, who is that? Who does that sound like? And he was like, it sounds exactly like your dad. And it's wild because when you've lived with someone like that and you've seen those behaviors,

the gaslighting behaviors, and the narcissism and different things, it's very easy, I think, to recognize it in other people when you've had to constantly sort of like know the behaviors to survive and also just witness them in your life. And so that's something that's that's been really honestly like quite triggering for me as a human since 2016 and also being a sexual assault victim in my past. Like it's it's really been difficult. I'm not going to lie. There's been times where I felt like legitimately depressed by the politics and the things that are happening in our country, especially this year. I'd like to start, chapter six in your book

is called Mad for Power. And it is on the topic of gas lighters in politics, society, and social media, which is just so incredibly relevant. And what's interesting about your book is that it was written, what was, it came out in 2018, and it feels a lot like when I read this chapter now, like some sort of prequel that you created to 2020,

because it's literally so accurate in each piece that you break down of the sort of profile of this behavior is so accurate that it's honestly kind of chilling to read it again today. I was reading it before the interview and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is even more relevant than I recognized a year ago when I first read it. So on page 95, you say, as we've been seeing gas lighters will confuse, distract, and harm. So as to get away with behaviors that otherwise would draw attention and outrage.

Unfortunately, this is true for public figures as for private citizens. Think about the damage that can be done when gas lighters take to the big stage of politics, traditional media, or social media. The potential to destabilize skew reality, abuse, and control behavior and choices sores. On the national stage, they have the capacity to make or break the rules that hundreds of millions of people live by every day.

They can make laws that affect our access to such services as health care and the safety of our air and water and food supply. That kind of power in the hands of a gaslighting personality is a true recipe for disaster. That's why it's so important that citizens use their sacred voting right and be willing to step up and take action when people in public office are disregarding the needs of the public, which basically summarizes the exact reason I want to just speak with you today. So as you sort of reflect on the time when you wrote this book and what is transpired in the last few years, what do you think rings true for you even more now than when you wrote the book? That this is a pattern that we have seen time and time again in history, in families, in relationships, in workplace issues, that this type of personality has traits that keep coming back.

And eventually, narcissists, gaslighters, sociopaths, which includes anti-social, they eventually trip themselves up and they will take everyone down with them. So I wrote it with the idea that I kind of knew that this was coming. I didn't know how bad it would get. I kind of figured it would get bad, but I didn't realize we'd get to this point where I think last night he was on what a show talking about tiny fish and little windows and buildings. I think that's what he was talking about. I think that's like, I domain him about. Yeah, I was tiny. Yeah, that they're going to be tiny windows and buildings and there's little fish that California's rationing work is there's little fish that need that aren't getting enough water. Like he said something like that. And I remember we just kind of listened to with our mouth hanging open. And I'm thinking, Oh, I wrote

about this. You know, like not like in a good way. But you know, it's it's that narcissists get to a point where they will not listen to anyone. And if people can get out of their grasp, they get to the point where they only surround themselves with yes people. And when you have someone telling you that your behavior is fine and acceptable, you just keep going with it. Until you get called out enough times, and the people that were there, yes people start turning on you, which we're starting to see. But the fact that it took this long for some people to realize or to admit how pathological the behavior is is really shocking, but not surprising. Right.

Because I think it is such a product of his ability to gaslight. And it was funny. It's like, I saw a tweet the other day and it said, you know, the difference between Trump and Pence is that Pence can lie calmly. And I also saw so many gaslighting traits from him. And I'm not, you know, I'm just speaking about what's relevant right now in the current landscape. Obviously, gaslighters can be found on both sides of the aisle in the United States history. And I'm in no way trying to claim that this is a behavior that is only one-sided. Right. However, given what I learned in your book,

it really helped me put words to what I was feeling when I would listen to Donald Trump and relate that experience to how I always had to listen to my father. And one of the terms, I can't remember if I learned it in your book or someone else's but is word salad. And it's like when they're just talking in circles and the buildings and the fish and the best and everything's the greatest. And it's just like that behavior is it's so textbook in a way that once you sort of start to recognize it, as soon as you see that that type of personality in action, you're like, oh, red flag, red flag. One of the things that I

really love about your book is your ability to really break down what the portrait of the overall gas lighter sort of looks like. You know, I think a lot of people think of gas lighting as a behavior as it, you know, as it is, but what I think really helped me when I read your book was looking at it as a whole person and all of the parts that make up that person, that showcases this gaslighting personality. Some of the sort of behaviors that you highlight in the chapter is that they show little empathy.

And that's on page 97. And you say one of the hallmarks of gas lighters is their lack of empathy and in politics, it's no different. In the United States, we're seeing this right now as people are actively working to remove healthcare during a literal pandemic. And to me, I think that highlights a great lack of empathy, considering how much people are suffering in our country. One of the examples

you gave in the book was in Venezuela in 2017. The people of Venezuela were starving. They were having an economic crisis. And their dictator Maduro, gave us Maduro, gave us speech in which he pulled an empanada out of his desk drawer and started eating it while talking. And I thought this was such a good example of those sort of mask slips that you sort of spoke about before, which is like the thing that I have been saying to my friends in private since Trump took off, this is like what's gonna be really fun is when he's not in power anymore

and then when all the people come out of the woodworks and reveal all of his behavior that he can't threaten or hold people. You know, he doesn't have that power to be able to keep those people sign like anymore, which I think we're already seeing. I mean, I can't imagine the book that's gonna come out like another five, 10 years.

I mean, can you imagine all the stuff that's going to come out like another five, 10 years. Right. I mean, can you imagine all the stuff that's going on that we haven't found out about? That's the thing. It's like, we're just barely scratching the surface. And that's what I don't think a lot of people understand. And unfortunately, because Trump has been able to use people's core values to manipulate them and to supporting him when I look at people who are pro-life and that's their main reason for staying in support of Trump. But then we see at the debates that issue is brought

up and he's like, where's it going? I'm not going to do anything about abortion. It was very telling to me. It was a mask slip moment that I hope other people notice. He doesn't actually care about being pro-life. He's only using that as a talking point to manipulate you. So I think it's one of those telling signs. In terms of the behaviors that you talk about in the book, another one that you highlight is that they're Magle and Maniacs, and that gaslighting politicians do not see themselves as employees of the people. And I think that this is very true when I look at American politics today.

Like you highlighted in the chapter, there are people in politics that get into it for the reason of wanting to serve their country. And be an example for the people. A force for change. And unfortunately, right now, it feels like we're seeing in the United States as politicians who care more for about dollars and cents and who's paying them and who's lining their pocket. And I think it's always been that way to some extent, but I think now it's just so blatant. And there's so many moral, I guess, interruptions to what the US views in general as morals that it's not being called out by the people that support him, like McConnell, for instance, McConnell has had several opportunities to say, hey, this isn't okay, but he keeps, he's backing him up.

And I think that's one of the other things that seeing the amount of enabling that's happened is really frightening. A enabling is part of, when you have a narcissist gas lighter, there are enablers, but to the extent that these people are willing to burn their own careers down, so they don't have to say no to Trump is again really scary and fascinating at the same time. How do you think he does it? My guess is that

he's quite charming. If you are on his good side, I think that he does. So I part of of kind of like my background is I worked in and Boca Ratona lived in Palm Beach County for about 10 years. And he was known as kind of like like he was nice to you if you if he didn't have an issue with you, but you could tell like he wasn't kind of there like he's always somewhere else. Do you what I mean? Like that? I'm trying to explain that And he's pleasant to people that he thinks he can guess something from or that haven't upset him. But if you do upset him, then he burns everything down at the ground. And the mask slips. That's right. And again, that was my father to a tee. It was like, he was super charming, like super, oh, business guy, like funny cracking jokes, like, you know, even though I despise everything that Trump stands for, there's still times where I'm like, you know, even though I despise everything that Trump stands for, there's still

times where I'm like, all laugh at his joke or, you know, he makes his work because he has an ability, he works so hard to make himself likable. Right. And to make him fight charming. And it's very, it's very effective. And I think also his ability to speak in a way that's relatable and feels less like a quote politician to people. For some reason, they look at that as like this signal that he is real or he's honest, but really it's just a distraction from the actual fact that he has no idea what he's doing. And he's not qualified for this office in any capacity.

Right. I think a lot of people just liked him from TV. Right. And that a lot of people just liked him from TV. Right. And that is a real. Yeah. The amount of trauma that he has caused people or triggering a past trauma is really remarkable. And again, something that's that's horrific. I have people contacting me after the debates that they were having flashbacks that had not popped up in a while from their own history of abuse because of the way that he was kind of steamrolling during the debate and just ignoring people and not shutting up to paraphrase Joe Biden. And it really brought people back to living with someone that everything has to be about

them. And people were, people were waking up and I noticed this particularly, this is across time zones, people told me that they were waking up at 2am, then I have to the debate in a cold sweat having nightmares. And that not happened to them before, all at 2 in the morning. I'm not sure what the significance of 2 in the morning is, but it was something that your subconscious picked up on this. Your conscious picked up on it, and then it brought up all this stuff that we have these

little compartments we keep things in so we can go about our day. And I think seeing someone like that, without the mask on, really terrified people and brought them back to that place when they were with somebody like that. Absolutely. And that's, I mean, honestly, that's how I felt. And in 2016, I think my coping mechanism was just, he's not going to win. He's not going to win. He's not going to win.

And then he won. And I was just like, I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe that more people were upset that a woman. I felt like Kilarie Clinton was judged more for staying with her husband who cheated on her than an actual rapist who's been accused of a sexually assaulting women 22 times. Right. And we don't care about that.

Like we literally have him on tape talking about sexually assaulting women and we still don't care about that and this person is our president and this. Or we do care and the people that should be doing something about it aren't. The people that have the power aren't doing something about it. So I think that's part of it too is that a lot of us know what should be done. But again, we go back to Mitch McConnell that

he could have been doing things in the hasn't. So that's that's one of the biggest issues is that feeling of helplessness that we know what should be done, but who's speaking for us. And such a people that can't speak for us don't have power right now. Yeah, so I think that's some of the major issues. And rarely has someone stepped out of the party line. Like for instance, you saw what happened to Mitt Romney when he spoke out against Trump and tried to just lash out at him and tweet it stuff about him. And you know, it's because that could make her break their career and he has instituted a real level of fear in people which is you know

right about the book and that's to sign an autocrat is that you rule through how many people you can terrify and impose your will and you turn people either into winners or losers that's a real theme of autocrats either you're a winner or a loser. That's it. And all these prejornives he puts on people that upset him. He calls Nancy Pelosi crazy. And Nancy Pelosi has, I wrote an article for Forrest about, it's a master class, not a handle, a gas lighter. She's raised five teenagers. So the lady knows how to deal with stuff. If you've raised a teenager, you know how to deal with some gas later. So the way she handled

him was very much like, I accept that you have some really big personality flaws. And I'm going to go about my business, but I'm also going to call you out on your stuff. And I'm going to hold you to it. And the way she did it was very non-judgmental. And she kind of let him expose his, you know, biggest mask drop on his own and is very masterful the way she did it. And you see that now too when today when she had a meeting about forming a 25th Amendment committee, and for listeners that aren't familiar with what that is, a 25th Amendment basically says that

the president is not fit physically or mentally to hold office and so the power can be transferred. There's a transition of power to the vice president, and then if not the vice president, I think the president of the Senate, which would be Pelosi. So the idea behind it isn't probably that they're going to put Trump to that, but just the fact that it's there that he's already spinning out of control, just the fact that his his San Lee's being questioned. Now he's on some heavy, heavy steroids right now, which can, you know, even the lower dose steroids can cause some behavioral issues, but he's on some high dose ones.

Now, I'm not his doctor. I don't know exactly what he's taking, but I think that's what his White House physician said that he's taking steroids. So just to put the 25th Amendment in perspective, George W. Bush invoked the 25th Amendment twice or did it transfer power twice? Because he was getting routine colonoscopies and was gonna be sedated.

And he knew they couldn't run the country while he was getting sedated for his colonoscopies. So he transferred power to Dick Cheney for colonoscopies. Now we have someone that has COVID that if you listen to the recording from last night, I think he was on Sean handy, I think, on Fox. He sounded really bad. And here's someone that is having physical problems, he's having some emotional problems, behavioral issues, and yet he's still running the country. So it kind of puts in a perspective that people have transferred power for a lot less and we become

normalized to this idea that this is how people behave and if you look back again to you like you were saying like 2016 if you looked ahead to 2020 how many people would have thought things would have gone this far. I mean I was scared they would but I remember so many people that I knew that we're just defying their votes for Trump. Like people I was close to saying, nothing's going to change. He's just going to be a good businessman for our country. And I'm like, you do not understand who is paying for this person if you think that.

And one of the things that you highlight is like the NRA, I believe in your book, you talk about that. And one of the things that you highlight is like the NRA, I believe in your book, you talk about that and how, you know, they spend a lot of money giving money to a lot of politicians campaigns. And so when our policy, when our politicians are being backed by these huge corporations, they have people to answer to and when people are writing new checks You owe them something most of the time and we see that a ton with with Trump and that's very apparent He will look in the face of the truth and lie if it protects the people that are writing his checks Like he will look at science facts figures and just say those are lies when they're even sometimes like his own Party or his own, his own government. And he will blatantly deny it. And I think that, that, that willingness that he has to just

double down on the gaslighting really makes some people believe the things that he's saying in a real way. And it's really kind of sad to see how many people have joined this, his quote, you know, there's a book called the Cult of Trump. And I do, as somebody who's studied quotes, I do see so many parallels. What we call the followers. Right. We don't call them supporters, we call them followers a lot of times. Yeah. And that wording in itself, I mean, the next chapter after chapter six is about cults, and yeah, you see things about not questioning the leader. The leader says that what you're thinking is wrong when he thinks is right. And that's it.

There's a punishment factor involved. But I also see too that there are a lot of people that have realized how disturbing this has all become. I mean, I kind of want to go back to a place where I didn't know the name of the postmaster general. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm like, I know his name is DeJoy and I know he lives in North Carolina and I wish I did not know that stuff. Right. I know way more about government. That's something I didn't really need to know. Like, I'm ready for government to be boring again. And you know, the whole idea of well,

drain the swamp, well, the swamp showed up. You know, so it, and there's a lot of projection too, which is what you see with a lot of narcissists gaslighters, anti-social personality, where when he's talking about himself, he's talking about other people. So if you look at the stuff he tweets about, think about it in the fact of he might be talking about himself. There's so much projection that goes on. Like, for instance, like, like, narcissists are saying, like, oh, well, you're cheating. I'm going to check your phone. And it turns out that they're cheating because they're

Narcissus supply can never be filled. Okay. So if you look at a lot of stuff, he says, think about what's come out since then. And one of the things you talk about too is their retaliation. We touched on this a little bit. But like, if you dared across them or people who are in his party that have crossed them, like you will know it and they will come at you with a vengeance. And one of the things you say is gaslighters know they target you or even worse, they target your family. Gaslighters know that to really get even with you going after your family makes you suffer the most. And we saw that in the first presidential debate. and that was something that a lot of people highlighted when he brought up Biden's son who is deceased and made comments about his other child. I personally I was shocked

that children were even brought up at the debate. I knew I knew he was going so to give you a snapshot of Biden. His wife and his daughter were killed in a car accident. I think his daughter was only a little over a year old. Then his son dies in adulthood from a brain tumor. His other son had an addiction issue and went to rehab. As Biden said, he's really proud of him that he's in recovery. That's the loss that this person has dealt with. went to rehab and as Biden said, you know, he's really proud of him that he's in recovery.

So that's the kind of loss that this person has dealt with. So that was exploited by Trump. And I think for very good reason is because he was trying to find anything that he thought would make him, you know, quote, weak unquote, what in fact, Biden turned it into, you know, with his son, the head of addiction issues, you know, how proud he is and that many families in the US have had someone with addiction issues. So he turned it around into, you know, I'm proud of my child for making this change in their lives.

And so it made what Trump did even look worse because here's someone that's saying, you know, my son, yes, this happened, but, you know, he's, he worked on it and he's okay now. And how beautiful is he's okay now? And it really emphasized that, yeah, Trump went there. He went there. He went after his dead son. And that's what narcissists do, especially when they think that they're losing ground on something. They will throw anything that hurts you at you. They collect ammunition. So they will ask about what your vulnerabilities are. They will ask about what's your worst fear or tell me about why you and your sister are

talking or whatever, and they will bring that up at some point. So they're not asking you because they want to develop emotional intimacy with you. They're using it so that they can spear you with it later on. It's emotional ammunition. Yeah. Well, I was going to say too, it's very telling that when they decided the second debate was going to be virtual because, you know, Trump has COVID, that his reaction was, I'm not going to debate in that format because that's not a real debate because narcissists don't like being muted Because the the presidential debate committee was going to start enforcing a muting rule

because of the fact that Trump would not stop and so he said that's not how you debate You know, I can't keep going on if it's on virtual and so that's he refused So that says a lot about, you know, the fact that narcissists feel like they have a right to steamroll over people. And that's not a good point. That's not a good point here. Yes, and they don't know how to operate without it.

They can't. They can't. His methods don't work without it. Right. And the Lincoln Project too has been really instrumental at figuring out how to how to thwart the narcissist. They have, and I don't recommend these techniques,

cause this stuff you don't do when you live with a narcissist or work with one. But there was a video they did of, you know, when he came out of the helicopter after the hospital and he's like going up to steps so the, like usually the presidents don't go up the steps and I think that's the South end of the building. They go through a ground floor door on the other side, but you went out the steps and

he was filmed and all this stuff. Well they did a video of Evita, you know, the Broadway show Evita, but they did it with with a song about him and his insatiable need for attention. And I guess he got really mad at this. So, so what they're doing basically is they're provoking him into exposing his narcissistic weak spots. So again, I don't recommend people do that, but they figured out a way that it's interesting that he's taking his, I just saw a graphic that they're taking money from their presidential campaign in states or swing states.

So those are states that are, you know, up that we don't know how, which way they're going to go. And they have put money into the DC ad market. And I think it was Rick Wilson with Lincoln Project said, well, part of the reason they're doing that is because they need to show Trump these ads are running because he's looking at all the negative feedback. So they're spending millions of dollars advertising in DC, which is heavily Democrat, to put Trump ads on. So they're wasting all this money. So Trump can be happy watch that they're doing these commercials and you can watch them on TV. So think how much money they spent on that. Yeah. So this is where the narcissist

eventually kind of just falls apart because they are, he's torpedoing his own campaign because of his own and satiable need for attention and power. And this is usually what happens. Absolutely. I agree 100% and I think another sign to me of that was when the COVID crisis began and he delayed some people's checks so that he could sign them. Or if you got auto deposit,

I got a letter from him with his signature. And it's like you're literally, like people were literally evicted because their checks were delayed, but you care more about the fact that they, you want people to know that you wrote them that check. Like they owe you something. Right, and he couldn't even sign them.

He couldn't even sign them because the department of treasury doesn't allow prison to do that. So he put his name on the memo line. Yeah, or today or yesterday, he said, he referred to my department of justice. It's not your department of justice. It's the US's department of justice. It's the citizens department of justice.

It's not your department of justice. And that's also very telling. It's like this possessiveness thing, like mind, mind, mind. And you know, there's a real kind of ownership territorial thing to it that no, you work for the people. You don't work for you or you know, people, they're supposed to serve us. We elected them. But the same my department of justice is just so far removed from how things are supposed to be. But we've been on the slippery slope. So at this point, when Trump literally says,

I didn't say that or what you saw in her or not what happened, we were already halfway into his term. So we start going down the slope and at this point, we've got someone that we don't know if, you know, I woke up when we're asked, you know, we don't know if he's dead or not. Like is he dead or alive? We have had no response from anybody about his hospitalization at all.

And, you know, usually if, if the president has, you know, I forget who it was, it was one president had like a fairly minor medical thing. And the doctor came out and said, this is what it was. It was one president had a fairly minor medical thing. And the doctor came out and said, this is what it is, this is the course of action. Because the idea is that the president is elected by the people. And so if he has a medical issue, the doctor has an obligation to be straight

with the people. So this doctor, I think it was a connoissee. Again, I don't want to know the name of the White House doctor anymore either. Right? Right. Right. So he's like, well, was he given oxygen? You see again, I don't want to know the name of the White House doctor anymore. You don't have to worry about it. You don't need to know. But so he's like, well, you know, was he given oxygen? Well, you know, like he was hedging on that and he was hedging on this and that.

And it's kind of like, well, you know, we kind of need to know if he's alive or not, you know, like we got that part down. And then it was like, well, how sick is he? And then we find out he's given supplemental oxygen, which means he, you know, was having a hard time. So I'm at the top of the stairs. When he took off his mask, again, affecting possibly all the people that work at the White House that were there before him, which is a largely black and also Latino population working at the White House

that have been there for years, and he's possibly affecting them. People are disposable to him. Absolutely. And then when he was at the top of the stairs, you could see him like, like, we were talking about, like, you have asthma, I have asthma, that you can tell when someone can't breathe, because we use all these, you know, what are called accessory muscles to help yourself,

you move your diaphragm and get a breath, and you can see him having problems breathing. So, we know that what the doctor's saying is not the full picture, but we've also kind of gotten used to the fact that, well, we're's saying is not the full picture, but we've also kind of gotten used to the fact that, well, we're probably not going to get the full story. And that's where the issue is, is that this has been normalized, that this is how the present operates.

And this is not how a present operates. I couldn't agree more. One of the things that you also highlight in the book on page 98 is that gaslighters in power fail to take responsibility. And I think that this is very accurate when I think about today's political climate, especially with the COVID-19 crisis and how it's been dealt with in the United States. The fact that our president and vice president knew that there was a deadly virus in our country and did not tell us for weeks and then minimized it to protect their own interests and their stock market and whatever else they were trying to protect is it lacks empathy and

And he actually said I don't take responsibility literally said I don't take responsibility I mean I can't get any clearer than that. I mean, when someone tells you who they are, believe them. Right. So true. The wonderful Dr. Maya Angelou said that first. And I had heard the quote so many times and I didn't know it was attributed to her. And it's, yeah, it's so poignant. They always point the finger at someone else is another thing that I highlighted when I was reading the book as it stood out to me. And the next point that you make is

that they det test intellectuals. And I think about this a lot, when I think about Trump and how he responds to scientists. Did that stand out to you this year as we've moved through this crisis? I saw that even from the beginning that he was starting to do that. And that's also what Nazis did too.

They especially targeted intellectuals because those were the people that could speak truth to power and had the most authority to speak truth to power. So those are usually the first people at autocrats and also that Trump tried to dissuade. Like I wrote for Forbes article about, you know, the basically paraphrasing, we're really lucky that Dr. Fauci is still around.

Now this is a man that has served what six presidents, seven presidents, and he has received accolades, he's had several published articles, he was commended, I think he got the presidential medal of freedom, I think, from the George H.W. or George W. Bush. So this is someone that's very highly regard

in the community, in the scientific community. And you can tell that the way he gives information is much clearer and much more concise than when you see him next to Trump. I think that was so evident when he would speak and then Trump would speak. And Trump would contradict him. There was a, I think it was, was a chief of staff that wrote us op-ed in USA Today questioning Fauci's ability to you know to do his job basically that he's been doing for decades and the USA Today editors basically wrote on there that this article does not meet our fact checking standards

basically saying like this op-ed is so like not true that we have to let you know that and he's tried several times to Undermind Fauci and to the point where you also had just an anonymous staffer So this this is stuff happens. So he sent out staffers to Basically badmout sometimes and so he so some of the anonymous staffers said hey, I have this piece of paper with these 16 points as to why Fouchy is, you know, like not the right person for this job. And the reason why he was doing that is if Fouchy was telling the truth, he's saying, this is bad. It's going to get worse. You need to practice social distancing. You need to wear masks. And Trump's like, eh, we're good. The US search general said, you don't mean mass. You're good. You know, and said, you don't mean mass, you're good.

And then, and then Trump, who recently just had this whole video about how much he appreciates Dr. and nurses said, oh, well, I've heard from a very important person, which he never, he never names his very important sources. Keep in mind, that's a real gasoline technique. Right. And he said, well, yeah.

And he said these, he said, I've run a lot of mass and PPE stuff is going out the back door of hospital. So he's basically accusing hospital staff of stealing PPEs, and that's why they're low on them. Okay. Yeah. So it goes beyond just, he's accusing innocent people of doing stuff.

And especially when it comes down to the fact that, yeah, he could have provided more mass for people, but he didn't. But instead, and the nerve to say that he thought the medical personnel were stealing them. And then goes on a video recently saying, Oh, I really appreciate all his doctors and nurses. Well, where were you when they didn't have enough PPEs? Yeah. And when you were insulting New York and their response when they were just people dying nonstop for months, you know, he went after Quambo, right. So you know, there's there's a lack of personal responsibility. And then now he's saying that, oh, well, I got he said, well, I got

COVID from the soldiers right, gone from Gold Star parents. He went after Gold Star parents. The Gold Star parents are parents who have lost He went after Goldstar parents. Goldstar parents are parents who have lost a child in combat. Wow. He didn't even have that. So he has said now on record that he thinks that he got it from Goldstar. I mean, there's no limit. There's really no limit. There is even say that.

Like, what is it just so that he could say that it didn't happen at the Amy Kong ACB year, wherever we're calling her? That's part of his. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. The Rose Garden Master. He would literally rather insult parents of a dead soldier than take accountability. Right. Yeah. The progression of his COVID from when he said he had a positive test and when he had to be hospitalized is very quick. So the doctor still has never confirmed when he got his first positive test or when he

last tested negative. That still has not been confirmed. So it's very possible that he knew he was sick during the debates. That's what I also read in the New York Times made a timeline that I read this past weekend and they said that it's very likely that he attended also a fundraising event knowing that he was feeling under the weather and that someone else who had traveled with him on Air Force One had just tested positive, which okay, yeah, which like of course and he still continues to completely downplay the virus and gas

light us again saying this is not a big deal you you get it, you beat it, whatever went to a hundred and ten. I think I'm immune. Oh my gosh, no. But that's something else that they do too. They'll make it look like they're Superman. Now, this man has access to healthcare that you and I would never receive. He got a cocktail of drugs, or I think it's antibodies. I believe it was from a donor in Singapore, I think it's what I read. And he got that immediately.

That's something that you and I would never have access to. Even if we were in dire circumstances in a hospital, you wouldn't have access to that. And to say like, oh, I think I'm immune to it, that buys into the whole narcissist gas layer thing of, if you are strong, you are better than everybody. And if you, you know, this gets into real ableism kind of issues. And then if you saw when you made fun of the disabled reporter, I mean, it is whole thing is like thing. Yeah, you have to be a special,

like a physical specimen of amazing this, you know, to qualify as worthy in his book. And so you saw that when he's like, I think I'm immune to it. And you know, I've, Dr.'s never seen anything like it, you know, all this hyperbole and stuff. And again, he had access to medical care, you and I would never receive. And he still sounds pretty sick.

So it really, all this stuff I wrote about chapters X unfortunately is happening and I wish it wasn't but this is usually throughout history if you look at autocrats this is usually how things go that they reach a point where even their most ardent supporters turning against them and the people that were their yes men turning against them. So I think we're getting to that point now again it took a really long time for it to happen. And there's still people that are, again, Mitch McConnell, another one, where he had many opportunities to say, this is not right. And this goes against the Constitution, everything,

but he was silent, or he actually backtrumped up. And now they're trying to push through the Supreme Court nominee when in the past, they basically blocked, well, and they basically did block Obama's nomination for the Supreme Court. And they are doing all this stuff. They spent so many days like holding up acts. They held up the Violence Against Women Act. That frozen incentive because they wouldn't approve it. So, I mean, there's all sorts of stuff that's been held up that was for the betterment of the people, especially women in domestic violence situations. The Violence Against Women Act said that if you're in a domestic violence situation, you do not lose your job if you have to take time off of work to find safe living conditions

or safe place to live. So that is now gone because it froze in the Senate. So they take all this time to not push things through, but yet they're going to try and push through a Supreme Court nominee with, you know, just a couple of months left if he doesn't win the election. So there's this real, it's a really immoral way to do things. And again, the people that can call the bound on this aren't the people in power. So I think that also brings up a lot of issues for people about their own abuse and that feeling of helplessness that no one's listening or that no one's doing anything.

I think people, there are a lot of good people are trying to do something about it. And one of the best things we can do is vote and fight voter suppression. If you go to a voting place and they have a touch screen, ask for paper ballot. If they don't have a way to process a paper ballot, you ask for one and you follow along when you before you submit your touch screen, you follow through with your own ballot to make sure that the the items that you selected are correct. So there are a lot of issues that Georgia has just come up with new software for their voting machines that was not I think it was invented. So you have first you got to do paper ballot. If you can't do paper ballot, then you do, you know, confirm your touch screen items with a paper, you know, with like a mock ballot. confirm your touchscreen items with a paper, you know, with like a mock ballot.

So there's all these things you can do, you can contact, I think it's like vote411.org and you can look up and see if your voter registration is active. I, the experience of going to a polling location where I had my voters card with me but I was not registered on the rolls. And I was told it would take up to 30 minutes to get a supervisor to come over to straighten it out. And I was told it would take up to 30 minutes to get a supervisor

to come over to straighten it out. And I said, fine, I'm staying right here because one of the things that happens is sometimes that they'll tell you you have to wait and wait and wait and they figure you're just going to go home. After that, I did vote by mail. But I waited the 30 minutes and they had to do this whole like thing to get me on the voter roll. And here I had my voter voter card in my hand and my ID. So make sure you check them, see if you're even registered. I would recommend that people do. So there are things we can do. Maybe we should get into that too, is that what can we do when we're feeling hopeless.

You don't have to watch the debates. I tell people, again, I wrote about this on Forbes. If the watching the debates gave you flashbacks or really hindered your anxiety or just made you feel pretty helpless, you don't need to watch them. You don't need to watch them. If you decide you're going to vote a certain way, the debate's probably aren't going to change that. You're not missing out on any. So just don't watch them. We have to really practice good self-care. And that means being this radical self-care, we are so good to ourselves and we treat ourselves like the most special beings on earth, which we all are.

So, you know, we really need to make sure we're getting up sleep, we're eating okay. We're talking to people if we need help, you know, consult a mental health professional. Takes some time to do fun stuff. I know that's hard too when you're really not feeling good. But I think that we really need to look at the fact that, you know, too, that the pandemic, it's gone on way longer than it should have or, and, but it is temporary and eventually it is going to end. We don't know when, but it is going to end eventually. And again, it's not the way that it should have been done or how we'd like it, but it is temporary. And again, you know, encourage people to vote. I think when we do things that, where we take action against kind of this authoritarian kind of

when we do things that where we take action against this authoritarian kind of government that's happened, I think that we tend to be healthier for it. When we feel like we can do something, otherwise we just have this feeling of helplessness and it really can kind of get us stuck. Absolutely. Thank you so much for highlighting all of that. I will absolutely link to some resources to help folks check their voter registration. If you're at all in doubt, I'm in California. I will absolutely link to some resources to help folks check their voter registration. If you're at all in doubt, I'm in California. I went to the website. I moved this year. I know I'm registered because I voted many times, but I wanted to make sure that I was going to have an updated address in the system. The system couldn't find me. So I just followed looked at the instructions. It said, just go ahead and re-. And thankfully I got my, because I'm in California

in a mail ballot this week. By the time this episode airs, we're going to be really on the last minute timeline unless you're in the two states that allow you to register up into the final day. So I will absolutely link to that as well. But if you have any doubt, please register to vote. Your employer and many states are obligated

to give you time off to vote. If they are trying to make you wait, stay as long as you can. I will personally be getting my, I got my mail-in ballot. I'll be dropping it in person at the polling location myself. But it's really, really important. And I am hopeful for the future. And I am encouraged

by the amount of people that I'm seeing get involved in our political process and voting for the first time. Even Shaquille O'Neill came out last night. I heard a shack saying he had never voted in his life, which I thought was a very brave thing to admit. Oh yeah, especially as a celebrity. And he said, and I will be voting this year. And I've been surprised by people I have in my own life, like learning that they hadn't voted before, and they're voting this year. And I think 2020 has really highlighted

how important the people in power are, especially when we need them in big, huge ways. And our children need them. we need to feel safe. And that's the part that really has made it hard for me to stay silent is the future for my children. And the decisions that politicians are making and the things that are being covered in the Supreme Court, like that's my children's future.

I miss it feeling like being bored by government. Do you wanna mean like, peace ban used to be so boring. Right. Yeah. Or you go, you go a whole day without hearing anything about the federal government. And you're like, that's cool. Okay. You know, like, like, like, there's a, there's a stability in there. And that's what helps me the country run is that there's a stability. Yeah. Now, I mean, a, a, a long side, all of us as citizens, but there's a clockwork to it that when the clockwork goes off

and things get tripped up, we've seen what happens. It's a very disconcerting feeling, especially, you know, for the older folks, like I'm thinking my parents generation, baby boomers, this is really caused a lot of depression, anxiety, because first, you have the government that you have known this has really caused a lot of depression, anxiety, because first, you have the government that you have known since your child is no longer what you recognize. You know, they went through Nixon and everything,

but this is Nixon pales in comparison to what's going on now. And also, you know, they've been cut off from their grandkids because of the pandemic. You know, there's a real issue with loneliness. I'm talking like 70 on up. And so there's a lot of people that have just gotten to the point where they're feeling really disheartened. And it's going to take us some time to heal,

is going to take some time. If Trump does not win this election and Biden wins, it's going to take us some time to heal. And be prepared for that. This things are not going to change overnight. It's going to take some time to rebuild. And also, keep in mind that if you're being told about ballots being stolen, which isn't true,

or voter fraud, which isn't true, there are documented studies on that. It's not true. The purpose is to make you feel like your vote doesn't count. And that's voter suppression. And there's a site that I'll tell you probably, I'll look it up after we talk, but there's a site you can report voter suppression. And there's a site that I'll tell you probably, I'll look it up after we talk, but there's a site you can report voter suppression to.

And they will literally come out to you. If you're staying in the poll line, they're trying to shut the poll location doors. They will come out and they will speak to the poll people. So there are ways that you have support, but we really need to speak with our votes. That's there's so many countries that don't get the right to vote.

And so like I said, it's a sacred right of ours as US citizens. So people live here, we need to speak out. And if someone tells you that your vote doesn't count, it does. We've gotten into elections where maybe not presidential, we've gotten into local state elections where it comes down to like a few hundred votes between people. So your vote does count. And I would really read up on what voter suppression is. And there was somebody that's Canadian on Twitter that said they automatically vote. They don't have to register.

And her point was that, you know, the US has gotten so used to voter suppression because her thought was that registering to vote is a form of voter suppression. I was thinking, you know what, she might be right because how come we all just don't get a right to vote when we show up with her ID or something? You know, isn't that odd that we have to register? I mean, we've even thought about it. No, I know, I know, right? And so because we've gotten so used to that, so look out for ways that voter suppression happens.

A lot of countries get a whole day off for the entire country to go vote. So there are a lot of ways of voter suppression happens, or like Texas, where they have one ballot what turn in for a county, which means that Houston, the county of Houston's, and only has one ballot return location. Wow. And the purpose is, again, to disenfranchise you from voting.

So it's so important that we speak out and we encourage others to vote too. So important. And stay safe while you're doing it too. So if you're voting on location, make sure you wear a mask, keep your social distance, all that stuff. Because we need to start believing in science. That's the other thing. Yeah.

Is that when you have people telling you that science isn't real, we have a lot of good hardworking people that are helping us try to figure out what COVID is, how it works, they figured out the DNA of different strains of it. So there are a lot of people that have worked their whole lives to be able to do the research that they're doing. So we really need to listen to them and believe them. And I think that's really important that, you know, again, these are people have given up their entire lives

to being epidemiologists, to being immunologists, to doing the best work they can to help everybody. So listen to them. Listen to them. If you're into true crime, the Generation Y podcast is essential listening. We started this podcast over 10 years ago to dissect some of the craziest and most notable murders, crimes, and conspiracy theories together, and we'd love for you to join us. Generation Y is one of the longest running true crime podcasts out there, and we are still

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or you can listen ad-free by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app. Listen to them, like Fauci. Fauci has no reason to not be truthful about stuff. He really doesn't, right? There's no impetus for him to lie to people. And I think, like I said, you can tell when he's talking to people that he's being honest with people.

If he doesn't know something, he says he doesn't know. That's the other thing. Gaslighters and narcissists will never say, I don't know. They'll talk around it, but they'll never say, I don't know. Are they'll never apologize? Or apologize, I was going to say, or admit any sort of wrongdoing at any point. Or right. If you look at Mike Pence, for example, I asked my husband the other day, I said, has he ever admitted that Trump could have done something differently, not even that he did it wrong, but just like, you know what, that's a good point. I haven't seen that from either of them.

And I thought it was really telling in the VP debate when Pence brought up something that had a case that involved Biden, Obama, and Harris said, you know what, I know they regret that. And that's something that they, you know, like expressed remorse and like validated, like, yeah, that didn't, that was not handled correctly. That was not okay. The feeling of it is different. And it is, like you said, just so incredibly important to vote.

And one of the things that I wanted to talk about that you highlight in your chapter on page 99 towards the bottom, you say they turn citizens against marginalized groups, gaslighting politicians compare their opponents to the worst evils, these types of politicians feed off of people's fear. If you turn people against a particular group, be it a political party, race, age, or culture, by inciting fear, you get those people to align with you. You then also conveniently have a target for all the woes you claim are happening in your country. And when I look at 2020 and George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and all of the things that have happened

and the fact that at our presidential debate, our president still was not willing to denounce white supremacy and white supremacists and would not even say it. Not even say it. Not even say it. Call them to action. Call them to action. Literally call them to action. And then try to pretend, which this totally reminded me of my dad and then try to pretend, I don't even know who the proud boys are. It's like, you literally call them to action.

Right. Right. Like, who do you think we are? What else do you think we are? What do you say, stand back? And what was the stand back and stand by which and my husband Yes, and my husband said he just wrote he just addressed them like he's here their leader and I said cuz he fucking is It's just like it's so telling and if you are if you are

Considering yourself a person that cares about a quality in way, if you do not see our president's behavior and his add it towards black, indigenous, and people of color, since even before he took office, you're just not trying to see it. I'm sorry, you are just looking at racism and saying, it doesn't matter enough to me to change my vote. And you can send your mad emails to me, not Stephanie on that. Well, let me tell you what I do with those emails.

So, you know, I wrote an op-ed for USA Today. This is Trump's and an abusive relationship with the US. I believe I wrote that, you know, where I'm on the book came out, around 2018. And also other things I've written on, you know, like we met through Twitter, the stuff I've written on Twitter. I only get some pretty horrible voice mails, emails, and what I'll do now in tweets,

and what I'll do is I will post them because my feeling is we need to bring lightness into the things that are usually hidden. And when people have been attacked like that online, you know, people usually feel embarrassed about our shame, but no, I say, you know what, if you're willing to put your name on this, it's going out. So I will post it. I'll post a screenshot online. I may blur out some names, but it's interesting. People

leave their name, their address, their phone number on these emails. I mean, they usually call me by a nickname, which I find really interesting. And this is kind of true narcissists too. You know, they don't call you by your name. So like you did, you said, like, which I find really interesting. And this is kind of true in our system, you know, they don't call you by your name. So like you did, you said like, can I call you Dr. Sarguss or Stephanie? That's like kind of what we're supposed to do with people, right? Like what name you want to be known by.

And they will call me Steph, Stephie. And that's something that only my family can do or my close friends. So it's a way of like kind of quote unquote, putting me in my place. But what I'll do is I may blur out somebody's name, but I will post the email. Or if it's a Facebook thing and they've put their name on it, I'll just post it as is with their name on it.

Because I think that that needs to come to light. And I think when Twitter said, well, no, nobody can say anything bad about the president, you know, hoping they'll die and everything. And you know, we'll we'll take that off if there's any threats. And I'm thinking where were you when a bunch of women reported stuff to you? Because there have been a lot of women, particularly women of color that have said to Twitter,

I'm getting threats. And Twitter was like, yeah, this isn't serious enough. So that's part of the issue, too, is our social media platforms. We need to hold them accountable for allowing things like white nationalist groups to post or Facebook. There's the whole issue with Russia, which is in the book too, but they don't move fast enough to condemn, you know, hate groups. So we need to hold social media accountable. You know, when this is all kind of we're settled,

which again, if Biden wins, this will start, it will start healing, but we need to hold social media accountable for what they allow to be posted. Because that can sway people. And again, when a social media platform does not take death threats against users seriously, we've got a problem. We've got a big problem.

A big problem. And I'm so glad you brought that up. And it is in your book. And again, it's like I think, I think, I think like how was this rid in two years ago? Like you, there's, I know there's a part where you talk about social media. And I think we could do a whole episode

on how social media gas lights us. And those algorithms, remember when we used to see what we wanted to see in order of time it was released? Remember that guys? No. Social media has decided we don't get to determine what we see. I just think the work that you've done and this book, like I've recommended it and I will keep recommending it. I've listened to it on audible like five times. I've read it at least three times. No, I it five times. No, I just, I really, really, like it really changed my life. When I read this book, I was working, I think on the second season and third season

of the podcast and I had been going through something personally and I couldn't understand why I was so hurt and I couldn't figure it out and I was just spinning and I was so depressed and I literally felt suicidal because of the way this person made me feel about myself. And I read your book and I was like, so validated. And I've been able to like, pay that forward to so many like listeners. And I just think like anybody who has been in an abusive relationship should read this book. No one is immune to gas.. I think it's really polarity. No one is immune to this. You may think that you're, you've got a high emotional quotient and you are pretty street

smart and you are vulnerable to gas light. Everyone is. Yeah. And I it is just a you know, people, people like this will seek out your weak spots. We all have weak spots. We all have those tender parts of us that we really don't want exposed, right? And so people, they will go after those. So, and that could be, you know, like you said, you know, a variety of settings. We friends, family, work, politicians, you know, so,

yeah, and so if you're saying, I don't think it never happened to me, it probably has already, you know, so I like it never happened to me, it probably has already. You know, so I think it's important to look at that that again, you know, no one is immune. Absolutely, I'm so glad you highlighted that. Thank you so much. And lastly, the overwhelming thing that I heard from listeners

when they heard that I was speaking with you today is to tell you thank you on behalf of like our entire community. The work that you've done has really saved lives. You're gonna make me cry Tiffany. I'm so serious. I got a message from a woman who said the information that she heard from you that I shared on my podcast and sharing your book helps her recognize that she was in an abusive relationship with her parents and started to heal because of the work you've done.

And I know there are tons of other people. So, I think that means so much to me because especially now with how things have been going, help her people have had a lot of people that are in distress. And so knowing that someone read the book and it changed their life makes such a huge difference. Especially with the amount of people

are suffering right now. So thank you so much. I really appreciate it. You're making me cry. I do that a lot, not intentional, but I like to pay where it's doing. But you know, they're happy tears. They're definitely happy tears.

I'm so glad that people are finding that there's hope after having these kind of people in your life. Yes. And you can rebuild here. And I always say, the best revenge is a life well lived. You know, absolutely. Go out there and you deserve the best, everyone.

And you're wonderful people. And thank you so much. I really appreciate it. OK, where can I'm going to link to all the things when I go through and edit the episode, all the websites and like I usually do, I don't know all the sources and stuff, but where can people find you? So StephanieSarkis.com and that's S is in Sam, ARKI, S is in Sam, and the podcast is Talking Brains. There's a link to them, the website and also anywhere the podcasts are on Twitter. I'm Stephanie Sarkis. On Instagram, I'm Sarkis PhD. I think on TikTok, I'm Stephanie Sarkis or Sarkis PhD. That's

basically like videos of my dogs. I'm sorry. I was very important. Very important, yes. And then let's see on YouTube, I'm Stephanie Sarkis and on Facebook, I'm Stephanie Sarkis PhD. So I think those are the main ones. But I can't figure out my TikTok. I think it's the Sarkis PhD, there's every Sarkis, but anyways.

I'll find it and make sure the right ones linked. And I love that you're on TikTok. That's so hip. Thank you again, Stephanie, so much for being on the show. Something was wrong is produced and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese. Music on this episode from Glad Rags. Check out their album, Wonder Under. If you'd like to help support the growth of something was wrong, you can help by leaving a positive review, sharing the podcast with your family, friends, and followers, and support at patreon.com slash something is wrong. Something was wrong and now has a free virtual survivor support

forum. That's something is wrong.com. You can remain as anonymous as you need. Thank you so much for listening. I never think of the things that don't make you don't know me, you don't know me You think you know me, you don't know me well You think you know me, you don't know me well I'm a little bit more, little bit more I'm a little bit more, little bit more I'm a little bit more, little bit more I'm a little bit more, little bit more I'm a little bit more, little bit more I'm a little bit more, little bit more You don't know anybody, you don't know anybody

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