Something Was Wrong - SWW LIVE Sacramento!

Episode Date: August 27, 2019

SWW Live took place Saturday August 24th 2019 at The Sophia at B Street Theater in Midtown Sacramento.Donate to Stand Up Placer at https://www.standupplacer.org/ Connect with Psychotherapist Isaac Smith at https://www.wholewellnesstherapy.com/Thank you so much to Alissa Doyle, Sara Lewis, Chivas May, Isaac Smith, Michael Reese and Ryan Doyle for their help in making this evening happen!!! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to something was wrong early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. I'm Candace DeLong and on my new podcast, Killer Psychy Daily, I share a quick 10 minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the cold-butter killers you read about in the news. Listen to the Amazon Music Exclusive Podcast killer psyche daily in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. This podcast is intended for mature audiences and could be triggering to some. Please use

discretion when listening. Let's do this! Welcome everyone to our break for something was wrong live. You're in set for men out. Oh! I'm going to meet Elizabeth Doyle. I'll see you in the next one. So you are not here to see me. You are here to seek the grace of the hour. So please give it up for Sarah and Liziffy Green! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo!

Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo!

I can't see anybody who all agree with me. How are you guys feeling right here? I'm Helen nervous. A little bit. Helen nervous? Helen nervous. That's the NorCal nervous. A little bit. Hell and nervous. Hell and nervous. You're working on it. That's the NorCal Norvis.

My sister jumps in and out of hell. So let's just kick it off. How did the podcast come to be? Let's talk about that. So the podcast came to be through you. I think actually one of our mutual friends had sort of like hinted to me, Alyssa has a story that she needs to tell you when she gets here tonight because I heard like three seconds of it and I'm pretty sure it's a good story and like you're

a notorious good storyteller. So I was already pumped about it and you're like, well my friend was supposed to be getting married. I don't know the story, but like, I know that like XYZ happened. Yes. This was at a diving party, so I don't know if I believe it. Yeah. Yes. It was for our friend's birthday party. And I had smoked probably like two joints at this point. And because like I have three kids, so. And we're in California so suck it and and so we were you were telling me the story and I was just like oh my god and you didn't know all the details but I was just like what is happening and I remember the one thing that I remember for sure was the cellulite text. Oh God

yes everybody remember. You were like all I know is this fucking guy created this And I remember the one thing that I remember for sure was the cellulite text. Oh God, yes. This is so much. You were like, all I know is this fucking guy created this fake person and somehow brought a Purcellulite. And that's all I needed to hear. I was like, podcast right now, fucking get it together. Okay ladies, let's get information because I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And that's what, and honestly, I was like, I need to know no, no, no, no, no. That's what, and honestly, I was like,

I need to know this story. I'm a really curious person. And I was just looked at you and I was like, that would be such a good podcast. And you were like, yeah. And I was like, yeah. And I remember like standing in a group of people and like they were like, oh god,

they're talking about podcasts again. Like, you know, I was like walking away. And you and I throughout the night We just stare at each other and randomly just be like Michael shout out to Michael and check wall in like worries Yeah, I had a podcast for like a hot minute for a hot and it Did you do like three episodes? Yeah, we did three episodes and then football season started So I should have known that I was gonna not be able to commit from there

I should have known that I was gonna not be able to commit from there. I should have known myself better. But it turns out you can edit podcasts while watching football. I learned this past year, so it ended up working out okay this time. Yes, Sarah, what are your initial thoughts when you were approached about this? So you texted me, and I remember the wording was so thoughtful and so diplomatic as you always are. But I knew the source too meant so my first thought was, ooh, like a podcast and I thought, oh wait, this is my, like, it's about my worst nightmare and I kind of like paused for a second and thought about it.

But knowing you, that was, that was what I think caused me to react positively because I knew how delicately you approached it and that you valued me as a friend and you wouldn't suggest something that was you know. And it was really soon after. Yeah it's been been like two or three months it was the same song. Yeah you know you I think you texted me in like June so the wedding was called up and made I think it was either June or July. Comuned at the Reese's home. Yes, so we set it up and then you came over, we met, we turned on a wave, shittier microphone and that in my kitchen, and that was pretty much the majority of the audio from the first season, and then obviously as like more things came out over as

episode started releasing, there was more content to record, so but the majority of it is from that. And that was about a lot of our sitting videos. Six? Six? Yeah, I know that I bought a lot of snacks from Trader Joe's and no one ate the snacks because I had some snacks at the beginning because we were all just like, and I don't know why I bought so many crunchy things like so many things.

And I remember the word The first couple hours we were being really polite and like being very aware of our Right, we have a chance and stuff and by the end I swear to God I was like up Pacing the room I didn't even think about what it would be like for you as a long time friend because we've known each other for what over 10 years ish around there. To hear the story, I'm just, I like switching to storytelling mode and I'm not thinking about it. And by the end, we're flipping tables and throwing snacks and screaming.

Yeah, yelling. Yeah. So what's been the hardest part and the most rewarding parts of this experience for both of you guys? I'll let you go first. Okay. Okay. I'll start with the hardest. It was kind of, I think the hardest part was also the most surprising. I didn't. I'm pretty fortunate to have a lot of people around me that are very validating. Nobody was dismissive, everybody, and I realized that's a gift. I think the most unexpected part was the internet to be honest, which I guess isn't that big of a

shock to the rest of the world, but the internet sucks. So it was really, my personality type, I want everyone to understand. And so what I wanted the world to understand was that he didn't show up in a red suit with pitchfork at my front door. He was, you know, an excellent boyfriend. He wasn't a crappy boyfriend by any means. So I think my frustration at feeling misunderstood or thinking, am I that, you know, do I just have a pension for the dramatic? Is that why I told the story? You know, that kind of thing. They knew by episode three Sarah, sorry.

Exactly. I was like, I knew by episode three Sarah, sorry. Right, exactly. I was like, I knew by episode three, I'm like, because you're listening to a TV show. Well, it is called something. Everything was fine, you know. Yeah, everything was fine. Everything was fine. We were kicking it.

But yeah, I didn't realize how many sleuths are out there. I mean, if only I'd asked the internet. Nobody was there to see the nuances and the connection and the, you know, I mean, we could read each other from across the room. It wasn't like, you know, I mean, I, I think it was really hard to portray the level of betrayal, honestly, because the connection is real. You just have to sort through the fact that the person that you connected with doesn't exist. And that's where the breakdown happens. Kind of. That was the hardest part. What was the best part?

Did you already say that? Hearing Tiffany Reese. Oh no, I can say it exactly how she said it. Do I think that at the Irish Award moment, and the, well, like this, to be honest, I mean, the messages and the connections formed the people that kind of just like literally came out of the woodwork that I had no idea I would have something in common with and people who had gone through so much more and how as weird as the internet was I also saw the compassion that just spans the globe.

There were just so many people that immediately came forward with warmth and understanding and compassion and it was truly beautiful. But my other favorite was like standing at work at the end of the day and I couldn't leave yet and I was watching the Iris Awards streamed online. And co-workers were like videoing me and when that woman said, Tiffany Ries, like on the mic, is just like out of body, everything just froze. So that was by far my favorite. That was a good moment. It was crazy. It was right, you tell me. So I would say the hardest part is also just people putting you in a box and you can't get out of it because they've already made their mind up about you and you're what you think and they know 100%. It's like people just don't

realize that you're real people on the internet and that's part of the reason like well there's a podcast Instagram like I direct people towards my personal Instagram. I want people to see my face like I'm a mom I'm a human being. If you want to talk shit to me call me on the phone, catch me outside. But like any idiot can write a comment and send a message on the internet. And I just think like the hard part is, it's like I have imposter syndrome really bad. And I also am a huge people plaser.

And I'm hell like codependent, which is like probably, you know, how I'm able to also like, empathize with a lot of people who have been in similar situations, but yeah, it's really hard when you feel like but I want everyone to like me, like I want everyone to like me and think that everything that I'm doing is correct. So that's really hard with the internet. Can you say a little bit more about that, like the box that you felt like people were putting you into? Was that like a new experience that kind of like, was that a brand new experience for you with a podcast? Or was it like a new box that you would never put into?

And what kind of what, what did that box look like? Well, it was like twofold because it was one part feeling really protective of Sarah and people judging her because she really went, like put herself out there and trusted me with her story and I felt very protective of her and her family and I know them in real life so I know what amazing people they are. So to hear people just like talking badly about them

was really hard, which is why I don't read the iTunes reviews anymore because I just choose not to, you know, like you don't get to come into my living room and take a shit, like you just don't. I'm not going to do that to you and you don't get to do that to me especially if you don't know me. So like, unless you have a successful podcast, I'm really not interested in your feedback. It's like when I first said, the only people that can critique you are the people that are in the arena. But you have to build up a scab, though, to that.

Like, I had no idea that how people would get. And also we were dealing with this person in the season. And the season is developing. And like, he's threatening us. And there's all this other shit going on behind the scenes, and like, I felt scared at times. I don't know if you ever felt scared. You were like, please show up at my door.

I think you were like, I would love nothing more, which there were no left. It was not like that, but there was some times maybe. Depends on the like a stage we were at, but and I definitely felt like that too at times, especially when I felt like he was trying to locate where we lived and doing different things. And so I was just, that was a low point personally.

But the high points, there was so many more high points. Just like people trusting Sarah and I with their stories and how many people have come forward. And every day, people message us and are sharing their stories and they're like, I didn't even, we've had people leave abusive relationships after listening to the podcast. We've had people that had just stepped out of situations

so similar to Sarah Messages and be like, I felt like I was listening to my own story. And like I feel so comforted by this. And that was by far the coolest thing to me. It just feels like you have purpose. Sarah, if we get it, go back just for a second. Can you touch on a little bit what kind of role the podcast played if any in your kind of grieving or mourning or sort of like wrapping your head around what happened process. Oh my gosh. It's hard to explain

like I don't know where to start but there's a lot of am I crazy? Am I crazy? You know when you're unraveling everything. So the massive amount of validation and confirmation and education and research that this check was doing, I didn't know to do all that. I mean, the research I did, I remember when my family and I, when they took me to Cabo instead of my honeymoon and I don't, I came across some article and maybe my mom sent it to me or something and I saw the term love bombing and started reading and just read and read and started flipping out because I still hadn't figured out what happened.

So that was my first like, oh, there's a label to this, are you kidding me? So I think doing the podcast at times was like, oh crap, what have I done? You know, when people's opinions start flooding in and then you realize, oh, my diary is on the internet. This might get weird. But then people's confirmation and validation

was mind blowing, is that everything? Yeah, that's awesome. Tips, so what is the future of the podcast in your mind? Well, obviously, like season two has started, and I've already recorded the interviews for season three So I have two seasons coming out hopefully by the end of this year and then So there'll be a little bit shorter seasons in the first season obviously because these stories are different in that they have taken place There is distance between the story and present time, which I think can

be, there's like, you know, good and bad about things progressing in real time versus not. But yeah, just people submit their stories on the website all the time and it's really, really heavy stuff and it's everywhere in the world and stories come in from all sorts of countries, you know, of all nationalities, all gender, all everything. It's, the impact is just crazy. Yeah. What are some of the topics that you're thinking of touching on? Really honestly, like, all forms of emotional abuse really interest me.

Yeah. You know, I love, like, colds, I love anything with behavioral science. Like I love just like knowing what makes people, what motivates people to do the things that they do. Not because I want to judge them, but I just want to know. And I think it's really therapeutic for myself in a selfish way because I learn about my own experiences through these people and it's really validating for me as well and it helps me to see like the diseases that people have and

the mental health issues that those individuals have and I think I've been able to become more sympathetic after dick towards those people I think like it's also different when you're like interacting and dealing with that person and knowing you versus like other stories where I will never be in contact likely with that person. But yeah. And I think at least for me it's been an eye opening experience through this to see that there's it seems like there's such a gap in talking about emotional

abuse. Like people don't, it's not really something that you talk about. In my own experience with different forms of emotional abuse, I'm like, I try to find other stories, they're just not there. And so I applaud you for giving these men and women a voice and a place to speak to you and speak to each other. And I just I think it's really important here. So Sarah, before we get to our next little section, do you have any new addictive elements that you can share with us since you were on season one?

I feel like so much goes back like so many random things. Just like you can't even keep up. I'm trying to think of when the last episode came out. I mean other than not like in the Go ahead. Oh, sorry. I'm the ex girlfriend or the girlfriend Anything happened since then? No, I mean, I met his first fiance in person. That's a oh I forgot about that when I was in Nashville, that was fun. She's...it's creepy how alike we are, but then again, make sense. Um, he is currently engaged, rumor has it.

These are engaged. We're into the end of round three, so... No, three. That was a real day. So... So season two has begun and our lovely star of season two is actually here tonight. So I would like to welcome to the stage T. And, no.

So T and Sarah have asked me to. Okay. T and Sarah have asked opportunity to never miss. So T, they have a safe, sparkly conversation. Thank you, Sarah. These are my favorite. She's the best. So T, this is Sarah.

Sarah, this is T, super casual. Super casual meeting. Here, this is Sarah. Sarah, this is Tee. Oh, super casual. Super casual meeting. Here, you sit there. So Tee, how is... So, fly Tee. Welcome. Did you guys listen? Yeah.

Did you guys listen to the shock? Yeah. Of course, you know who got her. Is it? They're here. I know, but I didn't think anyone, I told her, I don't even think a hundred people are gonna hear my story.

She was really concerned. She was like, do you think like a thousand people? And I was like, I'll try a thousand countries. Are there not any? I like not. I think I see crisis in. She's like screaming,

shouting like awful things. And I'm like, I still don't believe you. No one's heard it. So, T, what's the light to me? Sarah, because you listen to season one, correct? Yeah, so, so weird. So, I'm not a podcast girl and I work at a veterinary hospital. One of my cell's reps came in and she's like,

I'm benching this podcast. You have to hear in and she's like, I'm avenging this podcast. You have to hear it and I was like, okay, so I listened to it and this one, she is like a therapist on the air. Like, it's amazing and I've been waiting 10 years to tell my story and I was like, this is the person I want to tell my story and I didn't think she would ever respond to me

and they should ever message me back. I messaged her on Facebook. I'm like 100,000 people listen to your thing. You're never gonna answer me back. I think I messaged you back like right away. I was like, what up? I'm doing nothing. And I'm like, my thing was,

I don't think you're gonna believe me. And she's like, I don't really need to doubt you And I'm like because truth is very much stranger as an infection and then she's like dude I have a lot going on like I just won the Irish award. I'm like I know And so it was like she's like I promised I'll be in touch. I was like I was dead inside at that point I was so tired from season one I was really so dead inside at that point. I was so tired from season one. I really was I was really so dead inside I did not believe that she would ever

One respond to me to that she would ever respond again And then I was like the drug rep that had introduced me. I was like Just take me oh my god And then like no one releases what a it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, It was horrific. That was something that we talked about a lot through season one. As it was rolling out and getting the response and stuff was so overwhelming. And a lot of it was really difficult. And we started referring to it as people wanting their trauma porn. And just like, oh god, what happened?

And being unsatisfied with the ending because no one died. And kind of everyone's kind of becoming a character. It can be difficult because you know there's such a, it's a lie between sharing your story and getting that community and people really feeling seen and understood and also you understand this. This is not understandable. Like what happened to me and my family and my bestie there?

It's not understandable. Like it's not like people don't do this. Like I mean, I was so it was just poetic justice at the timing that the the act came out with Gypsy Rose. I mean, you hear about that, but it's on like night line. It's not for real. This really happened to me. It happened to my family. And it was four years of my life. Like, this lady kept the story going for four years. Wait, episode three is like two years in. Yeah. Wait, what? I'm talking to girl and I'm not giving it away. No, I know. I know. You have to listen. Girl, you can do that. No, you guys seriously. No, no. But it was four years. Well, welcome to something that was wrong with family. Yes, I'm wrong. Let me tell you.

So let's move on to the question and answer time for a little while. So if you have a question, raise your hand. Also, unfortunately, we're not going to direct any questions to tea. We can't do any spoilers. Sorry. I suppose if you do have a question that pertains to the first three episodes, totally fine. Absolutely. But yeah, who's the brave one that starts now? Yes, or? So you might be wondering about how it's kind of air-crued for you to, um, how other people that have been taking your stories. So it sounds like maybe there's stuff that you can do as well. And do you think you might ever tell your story?

Tiffany, do you think you might ever share more of your personal story? You know, I think I'd be a huge hypocrite if I didn't. I think I'm getting there. I think like being around these, you know, ladies and getting the messages from other people, like makes me want to be vulnerable, but I got to tell you, like, I shared such a small amount on the first season about, like, with my relationship with my father, and I got messages from people on Instagram, and they're like, you need to just do this with your life. You need to do this with your relationship. And it was, I was just like, I can't, I mentally just, I don't know. So I definitely want to, but I prefer to talk about other people. So,

we'll see. But yeah, I don't know what that will look like or whatever, but I definitely want to. And I think like it's important if I expect other people to be vulnerable, to be vulnerable myself, otherwise, like, it's pretty hypocritical. So. Alright, it was nice. Yes, we're going to talk. I'm curious, like, settle on the title. Something is wrong because it does contain spoilers.

Everything was fine, is that what you spent? What is wrong? Yeah, why the title, something was wrong? I just stood out to me talking to, just in all the interviews was like, that was the common thread. It was just like, there was just something there that was like, unspeakable. And I think it's, I really believe it's like that fear

that protects us and sometimes we listen to it and sometimes we don't, because we're humans. And I think like, the core of emotional abuse is really hard to pin down and you don't really know what exactly it is because it's so like insidious and so just snaky, I don't know, whether or it is, is that a word? Probably not. Um, it is, but yeah, I just kept people,

I just knew it was something was wrong. I remember specifically Rose, is Rose here? Is Rose here? There's Rose. Yes. She's in the back there. Hi. I just remember it was something was wrong. I remember specifically Rose. Is Rose here? Is Rose here? There's Rose. Yes. She's in the back there. Hi. I just remember her saying that.

And she was up at night, you know? And like, my kids are still small, but I think as a mom, myself, like listening to her, I always like already, I'm trying to get the like word into my kids. I'm like, you need to be 35 before I even meet somebody that you're dating. Don't even come at me. I want them to be happy but it's just like as a mother it's so hard to just like you have these kids and then they

just go do whatever the hell they want at some point. You have no control over what they can do anymore and it's like you know one day you're like hey I'm in charge of your snacks and the next day they're date and dick and you can't do shit about it you know and you just have to sit there and be like I'm so happy for you you know and like I think everybody's so yeah that really resonated with me I got totally out of it so love it and the music can I just say the music? the music that's on. So good. The crazy thing about that, if we have time, I hope so. Yeah, I think I have time. So I just went to, you know, like everything on the podcast that I,

I just learned from the internet, you know, the internet sucks, but it taught me everything I know. So I was just on this random website. It's like freepodcastmusic.com or some like condos. It's like a third page of Google search because I was just like I have no money for this. I had you know and I was just going through pages and that and it said you you know you think you I will listen to it and I remember I recorded it right away with my phone. I sent it to both of you and we were just like like done like that's almost written for this. Yeah, it was true. It was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so here.

My question is, this is the first Sarah, but if you guys all have something to say I'd love to hear what your thoughts are, I'm curious what has been like to learn how to listen to your gut instinction after your gut was you astray potentially. And if that's a little process that you're undergoing. Would you like to listen to your gut and or not listen to your gut?

How do you really learn how to listen to your gut yet? That's a really good, that's a really good question. That's been a very eye-opening and it's helped me to see other relationships and scenarios and people. I work in a place where I see a lot of people all day and it's almost been like a mental game of practicing what I recognize and going, oh, I had that same feeling with this other person and connecting the dots and going,

oh, that's what that feeling means. Because before, yes, I mean, there were times where I know we said in the podcast, I had no red flags, but now I know I did have red flags, but I just didn't know how to label that feeling. Now I know how to label it, and now I can see it coming from a mile away. If I meet somebody with similar traits in a heartbeat, I go, oh, okay. But it was definitely like a comparing contrast game for the past year and a half Yeah, do you guys have do you guys want to touch off at all?

I think gaslighting is really hard to get over I think being told can you can you just talk a little bit of Moan gaslighting is just for a second just like a refresher with gas like I mean Isaac Yeah, you come up here and explain it. This is Isaac Smith. He's gonna be back, but he's gonna be back on stage. You can do a better job. Look at this freaking outfit. Are you kidding me? He'll like call me three days ago. He's like, I'm worried about my own family. Please. So basically, gaslighting is when somebody tries to convince you that your perception of something is wrong

and you really start to doubt your own, you know, your gut like. And I really create, like you mentioned that, like am I really crazy, like this person is the telling me? Am I not seeing this the right way? So it's just a gain in order to get you to doubt what you really feel is your truth. So it's a lot of minimization and trying to sweep things under the carpet as quickly as possible to get you to doubt your own self. Yeah, that's great. Thank you, I thank you so much. Yeah, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good

job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, is that how do you remind yourself like how to do that? I think it's like knowing, I want something that I have definitely had to learn since the jump of the podcast and just like where I was at and sort of like my social emotional

state that I was going through before the podcast even began was just like you cannot let other people tell you who you are. Like especially people who are going to that are committed to not knowing who the fuck you actually are, like who cares what those people think? And it's taken me a really long time to get there and it's something I struggle with all the time, but I just growing up with addicts and alcoholics in my family and you develop a codependency with other people

and something I have learned is like, oh, maybe I'm recreating that shit with other people and something I have learned is like, oh, maybe I'm recreating that shit with other people now. And for me, it was like a lot of like female relationships in my life, which I think you, you know, I really relate to that about season two, female relationships have been really hard for me. So kind of like learning how to like have certain types of relationships for me, but have boundaries and like respect what other people think of me without letting it be the definition of who I am.

And that's where gaslighting can be really poisonous when you like other people not only like tell you who you are but what reality is, you know, it can really be hazardous. Yeah, T, do you have anything? Yeah, definitely. I mean, if you listen to season two at all, like, like the last episode, I was like, that was odd. That was odd. I said like, that was odd like 55 times. But that was odd in retrospect. But when you were going through it,

it wasn't odd because they're telling you it's not odd. This is the way it is. When you're immersed with someone who is manipulating you and lying to you and twisting your head, and people will convince you that what's happening, oh no, this is normal. This is, you know, but try not to let someone in after that. No. My friend circle, it's closed. No, it is normal. This is, you know, but try not to let someone in after that. No. My friend's circle, it's closed. No, it's not. No one is there.

No one is there. Yeah, no, I can't. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, just about me, you're in. All right. Oh, good. To be honest, that's the good one.

And I'm fine with this, I'm fine. Circle of trust. Yeah. It's very fun. It's touching back on what Sarah was saying. For me, it's been an eye-opening experience through this season one, just to get really close to the two of you in a new way. And we're going to talk a little bit

about French, like, the Plytonic friendships in the next part of the show. But I had an experience when we were in the middle of season one, um, with a friend and I, I didn't know what was happening. It was like, I said, I literally felt crazy. I thought, am I, am I, am I complete, am I, is my instinct this shit? Like, I'm, I just completely miss reading everything about this and I felt it literally felt like a cloud was going over my brain, I have like a constant headache and

I was just like maybe I'm completely wrong about this. And Sarah and Tiff. Good thing you had us we're like two minutes and we're like let's break this down. Okay, we've got ourselves a narcissist minimum. To see that you're being gassed, that you're being gassed, that's kind of the whole point. And so when they said it, I was like, oh my God, that's now. This is what this feels like. And that was major for me. And I think I'm just trusting your gut. I look back on that friendship. And there were parts that were incredible, of course.

Like, you know, they're not standing at the door of the freaking pitch, work them all in. Like, it's not how it is. And for me, looking back and knowing that there were always those moments, I'm like, that's not right, that's not okay. But I excused it. I mean, you know, I have reasons for saying,

like, that was fine, whatever, that's just who she is. For years. And then I got out of it and I was like, ah, I can't do that myself again. I know. I think that we have time for two more questions, two more questions.

Yeah, right here. So, Dix, real identity, it was revealed that some places you could have asked. I'm wondering if there were any professional interviews or other than about that. Were there any repercussions of Dix's real identity being revealed? Other than him asking for our mailing addresses for legal purposes, that I don't think that he...

And then he created a fake... of several fake accounts, like like Instagram try to communicate, try to communicate with the he was he still did that he created fake accounts to join the Facebook group created fake accounts to then start talking to women who are sharing their vulnerabilities in the Facebook group. Oh yeah. And trying to steer people falsely in the Facebook groups. And I'm like flying to the Iris Awards at this time. And I remember he had made up this fake girl. And her name was so-and-so at that camera.

It was called with an angel. It was called with an angel. Like bitch. And then he worked at Temple. He picked up that temple. Yeah, he picked these local Sacramento spots, but the cover photo was the Dallas skyline, which he loves Dallas.

It was just kind of the same. No, there were three photos and they weren't the same girl. And so then we were like, I remember sitting in the airport and we were like trying to figure out how we could determine if this was him. Cause I was just like, you know, I'm not in the Facebook group, but it was like, there was enough communication. It was communicating with somebody who like basically reached out to the admin and the group, Jen, who's awesome. And so we were investigating it. So I was

just like, I can't handle this anymore. So I picked up my phone. I'm like, in the airport, I'm just like, yeah, temple cost-fear-ostors. Yeah, does Sarah work there? You don't have any Sarah at this location. Okay, next location.. Hi Sarah there. Is she working today? Oh So then I got the HR guy who was happening at Temple at the second location I called shout out to Temple their coffee's great And I was he is like I'm actually making a schedule right now, so I have the employee Sorry to guy on blast I don't know your name, so I'll keep that a secret. But I was like, hey, so yeah, when Sarah working, and he's like, we don't even have a Sarah here,

I'm looking at our employee roster for all three stores, we do not have a Sarah, and I was just like, we're, she must have got a job at Starbucks, okay, bye. I'm like, we're never scared. Yeah, yeah, there were times. There were nights I had a tough time going to sleep, but I was also at my parents' house, and I have a lot of prickly plants outside my bedroom. We've had this conversation, but anyway, no, there were nights that it was tough,

but I relied on my family and my faith. And also, it really, I was relying on experiences of when I did corner him, when I did kind of point a finger at him, every reaction every time was just kind of to go deadpan into back away. I hadn't had any proof that he would be, that he would be like go on the offensive. Yeah, I get aggressive. All right. You've got time for one more question. Yes, seconds. I was just wondering how you thought when we made it to the Irish Awards and that kind of process and you could take a few years to hear that.

Yeah, did I just say that Irish Awards? How are you? I love that I could see your hair outline right now. Yeah. Like that's how I am with you. So I have gone to the Irish Awards for many years, actually since the first year it started and I have watched many of my friends Received their trophies and I never thought I would be nominated for one

But I was like, you know what if I was gonna try and get people to vote for me This felt like the year because I knew I had worked my ass off. So And Sarah was excited about it. So we were like, we'll just put out there and see what happens But we all were just like, if we get nominated, that'd be super cool. Like never expected to win. Still don't know how that happened, but really excited about it.

You're amazing. I remember the whole conference being like, people would be like, are you excited? And I would just be like, I'm really nervous because I know I'm going to make a face when they call Ashwin Kutcher's name or whatever his name is. What was that? That's not the other guy. So I was like, I just was like really concerned and talking to everyone about like, does this face look convincing that I'm happy for this person?

It's like not, because I was just so fixated on that. Like that was all I could think about was like, I didn't want people to not think that I was happy for the actual person that was gonna win, because there was no way that was gonna be me. I remember that was your main concern in our text stories. Yes, my ghost you guys were like, you know what I'm saying? You're like, no one's gonna be looking at the losers.

No one's gonna be. No one's gonna be looking at the losersoser snowman. I'm just kidding. No one is gonna know. But yeah, I was cool. Yeah, amazing. Alright, well, if you guys would give these lovely ladies a hand. We have our hands take a quick, timidly break. We good. Here we go. We'reid break. We good. Here we go, here we go.

We're in great, welcome back. Gonna change things up a little bit and speak to a couple of experts on these topics. So if you guys wouldn't mind just producing yourselves. Hi, here we are. My name is Shabba Smays and I am a domestic violence expert. And I call myself an expert because I do have lived experience as a survivor.

And now I work in the field and I have been working in the field for 22 years as one of the Board of Directors for the State Coalition, which is the California Partnership to End Domestic Violence. Great. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you. My name is Isaac, and I'm primarily a therapist

in private practice. I've got a cozy little spot here in Midtown, and then also in Farrokes. And I also do some work at a local homeless shelter in Roseville and in Auburn. Thank you. Welcome. Thank you.

I have some questions for you. So on the bonus episode, you talked to me a lot about leaving domestic of users. Can you talk a little bit about any tips that you have for leaving a relationship that's not romantic, such as a friendship that you realize is toxic? Yeah, so it's like a lot of the same things apply. If you notice that you're in a toxic relationship or friendship, the first thing that I would probably tell someone to do is to focus on that reconnecting with that with themselves. A lot of the times like if you think about an abusive relationship somebody's been telling you what to think and what to feel and how to act for so long and you need some space to get reconnected with your gut to learn to be

able to trust that again. And I think that first being able to take some space to get reconnected with your gut to learn to be able to trust that again. And I think that first being able to take that space to do some grieving around that, you know, a lot of people that I work with, their main coping strategy is just to go to distraction. And that's a useful strategy, but when it becomes something that you apply to everything, you miss out on that space of connecting with the pain, and pain can really teach you a lot of stuff. So, reconnect with yourself, and also start to build or reconnect with some of those relationships

that with people that have been there for you the entire time, right? People that don't just love you when you're doing your best best but have been with you when you've been at your lowest. And when you're in abusive relationships, abusive people try to pull you away from those healthy relationships because it makes their job easier. So reconnecting in that way I think is the first step and then just taking some space to do some of the grieving that needs to happen. Yeah, so if someone comes to you and says, I don't even know how to reconnect with myself anymore. I'm that lost.

What are some good start points for them? Yeah, I mean, this is not a fun one, so this is not a Disneyland answer, but it's learning to actually be with that pain and that's really scary sometimes. And you have to do that your own pace and kind of let that out and doses that you can handle but learning to sit and locate I believe a lot a lot of the work that I do with people is about with mindfulness and getting them to tune back in with their body.

So figuring out where some of those feelings hang out in the body and being with them again in doses that you can handle and then go to your distraction. I think writing, like downloading your brain can be a really useful tool to help you get reconnected to that inner voice. Sometimes if you've been in abusive relationship long enough, you might subconsciously not even know that you're looking for somebody to be like your life coach, right? Like even people that have really good intentions, like family members that are close, you might look for people to kind of lead that way and you'll have to resist some of those urges, right?

Be mindful to some of those urges to look for somebody else first, right? Who's on your board of directors urges, right? Be mindful to some of those urges to look for somebody else first, right? Who's on your board of directors inside of your heart? And putting... I'm right. That was just... Wow. I would sweet say that one more time.

Just like, people put folks on their board of directors to be like, this is how I'm supposed to live my life, like, without trusting their own voice. So... It was good. I really liked that. Sorry, I just like, when we how I'm supposed to live my life, like, without trusting their own voice. So. That's good. I really like that. Sorry, I'm not really like when we came to come out. That's great. Thank you.

So any tips for toxic people that you can't avoid, a boss, a coworker, a relative, and what are some strategies that you have? Okay. What are some strategies that you have? Okay, so first of all, I would probably ask someone, a difficult question of like, do you really have to be around this person? And is this job really worth it enough to continue to be abused on a daily basis? You know, if it's a situation where you're feeding your family, right? You're going to have to manage that while trying to look for something else. But I don't think that anybody should sign up to endure that.

And the same right, and this is not a popular answer as well, so I'm sorry. But what is the rule that you have to like your family? You know, some family members are toxic people that haven't earned the right for you to be around and to speak truth into your life at all. Again, like in my life, I try to look for people who have been there for me at all stages and really pay attention to what they say.

Say like, hey Isaac, you're being a knucklehead here. Like you need to get the shit squared away, right? I'm gonna listen to them, much more than I'm gonna listen to people that don't know me as well. I might still like take what they say and evaluate and say like, is there any truth to that? But it's not gonna hold as much weight because there's extra vulnerability over here

with the people that have been there for me. So, okay. You talked a little bit about the self-care. I know that's kind of like a buzz word right now. But can you talk about the importance of that as well as talking a little bit about how codependency can kind of defeat us? Yeah. So, if you kind of notice that you have some of those codependent tendencies, okay?

Which one possibly would have liked? Mainly, it's like, if that person's in a happy mood, you're in a happy mood. tendencies, okay? Which one possibly look like? Mainly it's like if that person's in a happy mood, you're in a happy mood, if they're in a shit mood, you're in a shit mood, you know, it's really like your moods are all dependent on that other person or all of your energy goes to trying to take care of someone else, right? Like lots of people are caregivers, you know, nurses, therapists, anybody in a helping profession can have caregiving tendencies. So that can be burned you out like nothing else. And I think that when you're there too, that's when you've lost a lot of your own voice as well.

When you're just focusing on taking care of somebody else. So, you know, doing, figuring out ways that really bring you life, things that you like to do, those can all be self-care activity, you know, talking to a therapist. You can be a self-care activity. This is a tough one for me. The line between vilifying someone in your life or someone that was in your life

that has narcissistic or toxic tendencies, vilifying them, and like where's the line between that and excusing their behavior because it's just who they are and the tools that they have because of trauma or poor parenting. That's a really great question. So, we better not get an answer. Yeah. Yeah. I think.

I think. So all the world's probably. I think a lot of times, yeah. OK, so I'm sure lots of you guys have heard this really cliche therapist thing to say, which is that hurt people, hurt people, right? Sure, everybody's heard that, okay? So unfortunately, sometimes people use their painful past

or whatever as a license to treat people however they want or as an excuse. So I think that there's understanding, like you can understand why somebody might have behaved or treated you in a certain way, but that doesn't mean that that behavior is okay. Also, like if you've been in abusive relationships for a long time, another reason why it's important

to reconnect with yourself is because the fastest way to find out what your your triggers are or what lights up is to get into a relationship whether that's romantic or another friendship. So sometimes your own past and your own traumas can make you can color your your lenses a little bit and you might think that something is going on that's not actually going on right and the way to work that out is in a context of a healthy relationship where you can talk about like okay I was I was triggered by this thing that it felt exactly how I felt before when I was in this kind of bad relationship

so it's good to take some of that space you know I work with a lot of people that are struggling with addiction, whatever your party is. And in AA, they have this kind of rule where they say, it's not a rule, but they say, hey, maybe you should take about a year off of romantic relationships, why are you getting sober to give yourself some space. And I think that that same type of thinking

is really helpful if you've been into a toxic romantic relationship. Like you should not be running off and getting into a relationship quickly. You need to pull back, take space, tune in, listen to yourself, and then maybe explore those things. Thank you, Jonathan. Yeah. What kind of help is out there for people with personality or behavioral disorders? Yeah, so therapy again. I would say with personality disorders in particular like you need some pretty intensive therapy You know Sometimes it can be there can be a tendency to build nice people that have some of those things But I've worked with a lot of people that have recognized that they have some of that junk and they want to work on it. And they want to get help and they know that they've hurt people. So I think intensive therapy is needed for personality disorders. That's

just my thought, I believe. Yeah, you mentioned that you do some work with the homeless community. And what are some of the impacts of emotional abuse that you see in the whole community? I mean, I, a lot of the people that I've worked with have dealt with abuse at some point in their life. I think like this is the thing about abuse, kind of like addiction, is it doesn't really discriminate at all. It affects people all walks of life, socioeconomic statuses, you name it. People can look great on the outside, and there could be horrendous things going on behind closed doors.

So abuse can impact and affect everybody. And I wrote, I was writing about this for a blog on my site, but this idea of people being strong enough, like you're strong enough you won't suffer from abuse. Or if you're strong enough you would leave that relationship. And I think that's bullshit. It's not about strong enough. Sarah was like saying, you know, she didn't recognize a lot of these things because nobody does. You're in the early stages of love. You don't recognize red flags because

I could geek out on the brain and what's going on. But there's all these hormones and chemicals that are firing to bring you together like oxytocin and dopamine. It's a reward thing. So in the beginning, people get obsessive about that person and they just ignore a lot of things because it feels so good to be in love. That's why I tell everybody that I work with that starting a new relationship. Everybody puts their best foot forward. Nobody shows you their shitty side up front very rarely, right? They're just kind of like peacock in and you know, I love bombing, you know, like all these great things. So I think it's good to like enjoy that and take time and watch

and get to know somebody. Shabbas, you were very much in agreement a lot of the eyes of the saying, is there anything that you would like to expand on, touch on, that you mentioned? Yes, the main thing that I would like to touch on is for those of you on the wrong that our survivors or know someone that is a survivor, the number one thing that you need to know is that the abuse was not and is not your fault. Come on. Let's go. Let's go. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on.

Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on.

Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on.

Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. just know that because there are times when you know we could be triggered or thoughts could come up in our mind and we feel like gosh I should have did this different I should have did that different and there's absolutely nothing you could have done differently to stop the person that harmed doing what they did so it's not your fault. Thank you so much. So can you talk to us a little bit about stand-up law? Yes. They are what is their mission and what do you do on a day on a day-to-day basis? Okay, so stand-up cluster is a domestic violence sexual assault and human trafficking agency that has been in business for 41 years for Placer County.

Our mission is saving lives by empowering survivors and educating the community to stand up to domestic violence sexual assault and human trafficking. Excuse me for getting time. I'm excited about the work I do. And yes, so much that we provide, we have a 24 hour crisis line where you could call in anonymously and talk to a crisis counselor.

We have a 24 hour shelter that is all gender inclusive where pet friendly, we are in an undisclosed location where survivors can stay up to 90 days, which in most shelters you can only stay 30 days. Another service that we provided the shelter is it's a 55 bed facility. So even with it being a 55 bed facility it's still not enough space because our crisis line is raining all the time throughout the day and there's people that we cannot get into the shelter because of her full. So one of the beautiful things about stand-up plaster is when that does happen

we do have some contracts with different hotels in the area until we could bring those families in until we can get them in our shelter. That's a good thing. Wow. And as far as what I do, I am the housing manager. I have a 24 month program to where I bring people in my program,

give them life skills, financial coaching, support groups, and I pay their rent up to two years while they're rebuilding their lives. So they can also receive services. One of the programs that I oversee is this called a one-time assistance program. And this is where if they don't have, they might have housing lined up, but they can't afford to pay the deposits or even get into a program, we can help them with that assistance. As well as keep them for maybe six months, maybe keep them for the year just depending as long as they're fleeing or have had the experience and they are a

Placer County resident, we can assist them and we do also accept out of County. It just really depends on how many beds we have available. And they can live anywhere they want in Placer County. So we don't cherry pick where they live. We let them be the ones to pick where they want to live counting. So we don't cherry pick where they live. We let them be the ones to pick where they want to live because it's about them taking control and us being trauma informed. How do you see organizations like standard plaster impacting the community as a whole? Domestic violence it affects communities like no other. So if I'm a survivor of

domestic violence and I've reached out and the community is helping me it helps my family, it helps my neighbors, it reduces crime and it reduces harm. So that's what stand up classroom focus is is to help harm reduction. When one person coming out of DV can save a whole family and community. And the domestic violence is on the rise, especially in Placer County, especially with human trafficking. We're seeing them very young. We've already had two human traffic seniors.

We've had to turn away 500 people from our shelter because of no space. Domestic violence and sexual assault, it costs Placer County $500,000 for one incident. So supporting this cause and not to stand up Pl plaster, but any DV agency. Your dollars count, your volunteer services count. Anything that you feel like you can shop it at our thrift store, facilitating a support group. Just whatever it is you feel that you have, it makes a difference in the community

and it does reduce harm. And I'm a living witness because when I was in my baby situation, I knew nothing about a domestic violence shelter. I just had to endure. And so it was just by the grace of God that I somehow had a head-to-protection around me to be able to flee that situation and then find out in being in that situation. I learned this was my passion and this was my purpose.

Thank you so much, I feel like you would be good. Thank you. So how can allies get involved or support the work of nonprofits such as Stand Up Plaster? Okay, well, you could start by liking us on Facebook, following us on Instagram, Twitter. You can go to our website, which is standupplaster.org. You can donate your gently used items

to our thrift boutique in Roseville, Santa Clara, drive, if you know where the Hobby Lobby's at. We're right in there. And just, you know, have us come give a training at your organization or at your clubs or things like that. Yeah, yeah. And if Craig, you have me around you, do we have a donation?

Yes, there's a donation jar in the front. If you are a person who is mature enough to carry cash, or you can go to the website and donate. It's very easy to access. It will be linked in the show notes. There is for people who are here, there are pamphlets and things like that. So, you'll find these out there and some pamphlets.

So, more information about donating, volunteering, and I assume is on the website. Yes, it is. Great. You guys are at standup plaster. Standup plaster.org. Standup placer, that award. And then for like Instagram, Twitter. Yes, standup placer. Great, great. And then I said what is your record and find you online? I also have one of those face books. So you can find me at whole wellness therapy.com. Also LinkedIn shows. LinkedIn show notes, yes? I'll try to remember.

Okay. So time for questions. I think you guys must be really good questions. Yes. So if there's someone in your life who you think is struggling with your mental illness, but is resistant to it, it's out taking that, and it's really

negligent in affecting their life, what are some strategies to thrive this by his resistance to its outtake, and it's really negatively impacting their rival, whether it's one strategy to thrive and help them seek help. Yeah, that's a really tough one. It's a really tough position to be in. I would like frame this kind of like through that lens of dealing with some sort of addiction, right? If you were struggling with an alcohol problem, chances are that friends and family coming to you and saying, hey, you've got a problem, is not gonna work, unfortunately.

It might get you to start to think about something like that, but the tone of that is really important, how you approach that. Until that person is really ready to face that stuff in their own life, there's unfortunately a little that you can do other than just say, hey, I think something's going on and I see this thing potentially impacting your life and I don't know you know because you're dealing with it, but I'm here for you if you need anything. And just kind of show up.

Not a lot of people these days show up for people and sometimes the best thing you can do is just give your presence to somebody else without trying to dictate anything. Can I kind of piggyback the reason? And I also think that removing the stigma because there's a lot of stigma surrounded you know around mental health and stuff and so if we could like just reduce that stigma not reduce it but just eradicated You know let people know you know if you're not feeling well help is available and it doesn't mean you're crazy or that Doesn't mean any of those negative things I am the best pastor I've ever done. And I feel like the student conference is going to change

where I can fail survivors of domestic violence. People with an environmental safety and that person might prefer to do with her own. Her own, her own, or an injured, and today, so the contact with her and it's over here at the support of the individual pictures, they will be talked to you when she's called to she's from back. So I believe that's the kind of

the national passivizing by Brian, either, which is a right. So what can be done to start seeing change happen? So people can be underserved for those. One of the things that I would like to say about that is I'm one of them like radical people that's always at the state capital amazing hell I want to be on people and so you know that's one of the ways that you know to get involved is you know happy stories for your state

legislatures. And when they have public hearings, Matter of fact, just last year, I was at the state capital asking for a $50 million increase for housing, for mental health services, not for just victims of domestic violence, but also for the people that harm, because you can't help people heal

if you're just healing like this. So that's one of the things that you can't help people heal if you're just healing like this. So that's one of the things that you can do. Get involved, get involved with the partnership. That's a great platform. When we have those conferences and when we're asking survivors to be at the table, that's exactly what we need. We need those voices at the table so that we can take that before hearings to make the change. We need you to be a stakeholder in it. Hmm. Well, preach. Alright, what else in this case? What about Placer County? Do you think makes domestic violence higher? What are

what are the what do certain counties that have those higher rates have in common? So what makes Placera County such a higher place for is because people feel it doesn't happen there. Because Placera County, there's money there. Whereas in the inner city, if expected to happen in Sacramento, because there's a whole lot of Sacramento's's very diverse. Class for counties not. So that's why that's one of the number one hubs. When you live in a nice house, no one checks on you. Exactly. Because that was my experience growing up. No one checked on me. Exactly. My parents had a nice house and a track home in Fassar County and they

were Republican voters and had like 3.5 dogs or whatever. And it's like, it's just no one worried about that person because of the stigma that we're putting on this behavior is that it's like this only happens to others and this doesn't happen to my neighbor and that's that is I think part of the problem that's how people get away with it. That's exactly how people get away with it. One of the main people are traffic is by the gallery of all. Sun splash, gallery of all.

Yeah, absolutely. And we're seeing traffic as youngest 10. Yeah. And we're seeing them traffic as youngest 10 youngest 10 and Elderly so yes, it definitely happens in all of our backyards none of us are immune So we're both teachers actually in bus or county and the city So we see a lot of signs of kids Teenage parents getting involved in abusive relationships, but they have no reference point.

A lot of times they either have never seen it themselves or in their mind this is just, you know, they see it in a TV show and it was romanticized to them. So they think that something like checking on some of those phone or the time is regular or, you know, things like that, that once you've experienced a little bit more, you start to understand the signs a little better, but, you know, 15-year-old doesn't always. So, what advice would you give about helping

kids sort of start to see those things and understand those things in such a way that going forward, they're more aware of how to either avoid those situations or get out of those situations before they become too engulfed in those situations. So one of the things that I recommend, as I also oversee our outreach and prevention program, and we're in the schools. So if you would like us to come and do a workshop for your school,

we're more than happy to do that. And it's called teaching healthy relationships, healthy boundaries, the warning signs, the red flags to pay attention to. So, and we're from middle school all the way up to college. We're now in Sierra College to where we're taking that. We have the athletes program to teach them how to be advocates. So we're starting at that level and we're bringing it on down.

We've got to start young. We have to really get into our institutions and give the education in order to break the cycle. I guess. You have anything to add to that? I mean, yeah. I worked with high schoolers for a long time and I think it's sad that we don't talk about emotional intelligence in our education system.

And there's a lot of inherent kind of emotion myths that we face in this country in particular. You know, that they're good in their bad emotions, and there's a right way and a wrong way to feel, and that showing emotion as weakness, and all this garbage stuff, so being able to like model that when you can, when appropriate, is really healthy for kids because they're watching you.

And figuring out what those emotion myths that you've bought into in your own life are, and addressing that. I really feel like the more that we get, you know, I've said this already, but the more that my big belief is the more that we get connected, right, to ourselves that improves our relationships with other people. So being able to check in and start to see emotions as what they are is these things that are there to protect you, to keep you alive and to listen to them and see what the son. In advance to kind of a work that needs to happen. She was a therapist, I can figure it out, but she was a therapy in the hospital for life.

We just set her up in college this week. She's doing all this for her. What can we do for her? One of the things that I would recommend is always giving them that talk of how much you love them, how worthy they are. And knowing your worth does miracles. And it is sometimes just that.

Just that right there, just, you know, no, I love you, know that I'm always gonna be here for you if you ever need to talk. And it's sometimes just that. Just that right there, just, you know, no, I love you. Know that I'm always gonna be here for you if you ever need to talk. You know, the door is always open. Safety is always first. And not be so quick to judge. I think that's where we mess up as parents.

I know when I was in my situation and I told my mother what was happening to me, her response was, well what did you do? She said, you got a smart mouth. You know, you problem like, wow, there's nothing that I could ever do to anybody to make me make them hurt me the way they did. So if her message would have been different, more like, I'm sorry that's happening to you when you're ready to go. I'm here for you. Whatever you need, there's never ever going to be a door close to you. And that I love you. Those are the most powerful words you can say. And they might not

always come to you in the beginning because your mom, your dad, but as long as they know they do have that platform. Yeah, and just I'm hearing a little bit of what you said, like you, I think you probably did a lot more than you've realized. Just by you and your husband being invested in therapy, you sort of normalize that it's okay to get help. The unfortunate part is like you can't protect like the people that you love from pain. It's about teaching them how to deal with that pain and being able to process and like

when we see someone hurting, right, we want to take that away as quickly as we can, but sometimes that can be the wrong thing to do because there's a lot of lesson that comes in in pain. And it's become to your point too. Validation goes a whole long way and sometimes people think validating is like agreeing with someone's viewpoint and saying like, okay, this behavior is all right.

It's not that, it's just about understanding like why they might be thinking and feeling and behaving the way that they are based on what they've got going on. The teenage brain brain is a fascinating thing because it's developing in some really cool ways and then they still can have impulsivities that seem totally logical and justified to them. A lot of us look for only external validation to make us okay. And you know, I do a meditation group at the homeless shelter that I work at and

at the end of it I always tell them that you are worthy and that you are loved and you're more than enough just the way that you are. And the thing about abuse is it really starts to make that inner critic like even louder. And that's a hard thing to weather and deal with and recognize. And it takes a lot of intentional work, a lot months, sometimes years of paying attention to that spot inside of you. So I am always just amazed by people showing up in my office or calling me and saying like, Hey, I need some help because that's such a gutsy courageous thing to do. And I tell my clients like, look, I went to therapy school, right? Even when I go see my therapist, I've had tremendous anxiety about that experience. So it's like such a

empowering thing like I feel I feel like that space is so sacred and I feel honored to be in a part of it because it's such a strong and powered move to make to say, hey I don't know what to do with this but I need a little bit of support. Um, as a people, these are in someone that does a poor vaccination from people and also trust, I think the main thing is I trust people for the community. So, how would you, what's the most healthy way to take action and express to a relationship relationship that is toxic or that it is not helpful to your life, do you want to cut off? Yeah, that's a really good question. I think it does depend on a number of factors. that is toxic or that is not helpful to your life. You do want to cut off?

Yeah, that's a really good question. I think it does depend on a number of factors. Like if doing so, having that conversation is gonna cause you more harm, then just, you know, cut ties and move on, you know, same things, block them on social media. Also, sometimes when we do struggle with that people pleasing part,

we're spending all this energy because we're trying to tell that other person like, look, look, like if you just understand, like, I know you won't feel this way, I know you won't treat me that way, right? And that doesn't work, that's a losing battle. So I think that just being able to recognize when that urge is coming in, like being able to say, like, I'm doing that thing. Like, that's why I tell people to tune in because you can get a lot of information by just paying attention and doing so in a non-judgmental way to what's going on in here. One of the things that works for me is being someone who has been through a lot of, you know, pain and rejection and, um, I, in a sense, I had become numb to it. But then I had to just tell myself, you know what?

Mm-mm, it stops right here. So I have prayed and asked for the gift of goodbye. Yeah. Yeah. That's so good. That's so good. I'm going to go to stress. I'm going to stress.

I'm going to stress. I'm going to stress. And I have it. If people come into my life and I feel that negative energy and that toxicity and I'm like, no, I don't owe you an explanation for anything. It just stops right here and could buy. And there's no look back. But it took a long time for me to get there.

And because it took so long, I really guard that and I protect that. Your peace is priceless. Let's understand that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's so good. That's special matter.

So I know firsthand in watching The American American American, there have been a lot of affirmations around two people, the exact same positive affirmations. And one person who can move back to the internal belief of themselves, and it can change their life. And one person does not. They continue to believe my non-worthy. What would you say as like a potential like

encourage yourself, and how can we deliver those positive affirmations in a way that will encourage internalization and help you change the platform? I have one word for it. It's just don't even let it be your words, let it be your action. Action is everything.

Sometimes, you know, people hear affirmations, but it doesn't saturate, so just show it. If you tell someone you love them or that they're worthy, you show them that. You give them that little nugget. Sometimes it's just planting that seed. And then we just have to believe that someone will bring the water and it will blossom.

So things have to sometimes, they gotta die in the ground before it could have life. So I'm one of those metaphor type of people, but just keep doing what you're doing, show the love, don't let your words be action. When I'm working with people that are kind of struggling with some of this stuff, sometimes I have them doing exercise where I want them to identify what their values are,

like what's important to them. And I think when people do that, you know, it's like the first time they've ever done that. And one of the main reasons I have folks do that is because when you understand like what your core values are, like what's important to you? You can then hold those values up to any relationship, any job, any big decision in your life and have a lot of clarity on whether or not those relationships or people or that job lines up with those values and if it doesn't, it's probably a good time to like trust your gut and be like, ah this looks really good but there's all these things that aren't lining up and maybe go the other way

But I think people have to find that for themselves like you can be that encourager Sometimes people get energy too from when they're at that space of that poor self worth Feeding into like no, no, you're not that way. You're not that way, right? And then you get in this role of trying to convince them over and over because and they might not even recognize but they're getting energy from that sort of dance like that negative energy is still attention right and that's a hard thing today because I say that but I don't want to be like oh that's what everybody does all the time sometimes that's what goes on like an alanon I, Alonon is like for those that don't know. It's like a support group for people who are in relationships with alcoholics and addicts. One thing that they talk

about in their support groups a lot is like how you can become addicted to chaos. And especially if you are sort of grown and created in that chaotic environment. It's really all you know, and so you don't know how to decipher sort of how healthy relationships work, and so you're kind of figuring it out. And so like sometimes it just takes time and experiencing real healthy relationships

that just hasn't happened for those people yet. So they just literally don't know what that looks like, but like you can show them. Yeah, that's precisely why like it takes most people that are in abusive relationships in average of like seven to 12 times to leave before they actually do, because that abusive environment becomes your new normal, right? And like there's this really cool protective thing in your body called homeostasis and so your body is going to work really hard to resist change of any kind, right? Even when that change is a good change. So these are things

to be aware of that that can become really comfortable and so those signals, those alarms are turned off. I'm praying to the process seems so much and not too far to the list, so someone who is so into it, and indeed you, like, let it dig. That's what she says. Oh, something was wrong. Everything was right. Oh, something was wrong. Everything was right. So, what's the reason why you change?

That's so mean. That's what I do worldwide. And it's messy. But I believe that people can change. So I think one happened and then I realized I feel like for someone who is made by the user emotionally, maybe it's not so intense, it's impossible.

Like, you care about this person, how do you help walk through this? Like, I care about you, and I want you to not do this. But yeah, it's like, how would you have tools to do that? Mm-hmm. So the first part of your question, it's really rough and it's really painful and ugly. And the main requirement there is a willingness to be one to do the work. If there's no willingness, then nobody is gonna force anybody into any kind of change.

The second part is like sometimes the best thing you can do is walk away and remove yourself from something that's toxic that's harming you, right? Because then you're committed to this certain outcome of that's happening. And this is what happens in abusive relationships like they think, okay, if I can just love this person more and enough and better in all of these ways, they're gonna change. They're not gonna change until they want to. And sometimes compassion is metaphorically, you know, given somebody a right hook, it's like getting the hell out of there.

Sometimes that's the most compassionate thing to do is say enough is enough, I'm not going to allow this. I love you, but you need to get some help for that. I always think like what you allow you approve of, so the best way that you can teach someone to stop acting abusive is to say you don't get to... Get help, Greg Lewis. Yeah, that's the thing, that I had to do is I had to walk away from everything. I mean, I walked away from my place, I walked away from my car.

I literally became homeless in order to get out with my three children. Because I had no family in this state or my family was in Indiana. But I said I would rather sleep under a bridge with my three kids before I put up with this another day. I'm leaving and I did not look back. It's not easy because we become accustomed to a certain way of life and you know it's hard starting over and being a single mother with three kids and what you know it goes on and on and on but your life has meaning and not everybody makes it out and I had to tell myself, Chevy Stairs, two things is going to happen.

Either you're going to leave and you're going to struggle and you're going to rebuild your life or you're going to get your first set of flowers from your person that's harming you and it's going to be on top of a casket. Now, you choose what you're going to do. And it's hard as it was says, I had to do what I had to do. And you can rebuild your life after domestic violence.

I am 22 years into the DV movement, living a violent, freed life. Happy, healthy, and single. LAUGHTER CHEERING healthy and single. Again, just like a little bit about that validation piece that I was talking to earlier, you know, we as humans, especially if you're in a relationship, you can be abusive to the person that you love from time to time, say the wrong thing out of anger, okay?

I love how you always say knucklehead. Anyone can be a knucklehead. That's right. It's like a really nice way of putting it when I talk to people. Yeah. Um, I always give this example, but if I came home and had a really stressful day at work and I was like jerked to my wife, right? An example of validation of her being her saying like, hey Isaac, I understand

you had a stressful long day and you can't take it out of me, right? It's like she's validating where I'm coming from and then setting a limit. Like you're not going to pop to me. You can't be short with me just because you had. And so I think that that's being like, if somebody's trying to work on it, like we can't expect that they're going to be perfect. So it's giving a little bit of grace for, you know, when I work with the couples, you know, it's really teaching them some of that and how to like, emotionally regulate before they try to have like tough conversations. So you can validate those things, but set your limit also.

I get where you're coming from and it's still not okay. Like, I get that you grew up from and it's still not okay. I get that you grew up in a really abusive home and you can't be abusive to me, right? Yeah, I'm very used. Yeah, that's something that I've actually been talking about here a whole lot about as I've been learning about abuse and emotional abuse

and have my own experiences with emotional abuse and grew up in emotional abuse of home, which was a huge light bulb for me and to even know is it's like I have all of this information. And now there are times when I, I almost am like, oh God am I being abusive? Oh God is an offending abusive? Oh God is my husband being abusive?

Oh God we're all abusive. I'm like, I'm sorry. But yeah, it's like we, yeah, you know, you are in a good head, you have a long day, you can latch out, but that's when I'm like, I come to my therapist and I'm like, am I these? And she's like, no, let's talk about what actual abuse is. And she reminds me what that is.

And reminds me, you're okay. You're working through your stuff. You're safe. You're in a good relationship. And that is so helpful for me when I'm working through and learning about all of this stuff is like having someone there to be like talk to me and my crazy my abusive and you know having a cousin that knows what's talking about. So I think that we have time for one more question. There's anything else I can hear. Maybe it's much easier to talk about spiritual years. Oh yes. I'll be talking about a lot of different ways. I'll be talking about other places and I'd grab boring school. But I see a lot of different types of different forms of school.

So we can do this short. Which is why I said all my actual needs, sexual needs, which is so common. I've been here a few years ago, and I've been through that. And I know it's a special one. It's a very story. And I then I know it's a special one, Sarah's story. And also, like, do you see that a lot? I hear some big sounds and, you know, we got that full day by the end of the month

that I was very nervous, please, didn't that. So, thank you so much for sharing that. Thank you. Yeah, well, we definitely do see the spiritual abuse. It's how it's intertwined with the other dynamics of abuse. And maybe Isaac can speak to this more, but I know that it does show up in a lot of ways for our survivors to where they're being manipulated and controlled by the Bible and different, you know, ritual types of things. And we do connect them with therapy. And it's kind of like pulling back the layer of an onion. You know, you, you, there's so much

that's there and we just have to be mindful and delicate and understanding that trauma of just pilling it back. And I'm gonna let you take that one. I'm so appreciate you bringing that up because I don't think that it's something that people talk about too often. I have a whole section on my website devoted to spiritual abuse because, you know, people use religion as a tool, as a weapon, sometimes to do some really horrible things.

When you study some of that, it's like always usually the antithesis of what the message of that religion is trying to say. So it's like mind-boggling in a lot of ways. But it can really cloud a lot of things, right? If you had this vibrant spiritual life, now like that's in question. And then when that's in question, like, you know, you feel like a part of yourself is missing

because maybe something that could have brought you joy and meaning in your life has now been colored in like this really awful way. So the work starts with like trying again, like I always start with people tuning into their own Self like I can't fix anybody. I can help them figure out and see patterns and support them in that But they're gonna have to do that hard work And I will sit with them and be with them in that

But there'll be a lot of that on your own that you have to kind of go into those spots that are really painful that maybe you haven't you've kept a lid on for years and years and to do that in a way that's very honoring of where you're at too, not trying to rip the bandit off. Like we want a lot of quick fixes in this culture, right? And you cannot quick fix when you've suffered abuse of any kind. It'll show up in other relationships

if you don't take a look at it now. Thank you guys. I know we've been loves to talk to them all night. Oh, you only have the space until 10. So let's give a show us, and I say, I have a hand. Can I have a hand? Woo!

And let's keep having a conversation. Let's keep normalizing these conversations. But let's keep looking at each other in the eye. It's so important that we can connect online, but it's so important to connect, flesh to flesh, face to face, and talk about that stuff, it's so important. So Tiffany, I would give you the last word.

I just want to say thank you so much for coming. And when we talked about doing this months ago, we were kind of like, I hope someone comes. So, the fact that you all came, it was like so awesome and I'm just thank you to everybody that was part of the event tonight and I just really appreciate everyone's vulnerability and honesty and it's just really fucking cool that you guys came. It's really really cool.

Yeah, and we'll be here in like space until like 9.30 like hanging out and then we have to like, I guess clean or something. Yeah. Alright, thank you guys so much for coming to help me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, Prime Members. You can listen to something was wrong early and add free on Amazon Music. Download the app today. Or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery's podcast American scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history, presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our newest series, we look at the Kids for Cash scandal, a story about corruption inside America's system of juvenile justice. In Northeastern Pennsylvania, residents had begun noticing an alarming trend. Children were being sent away to jail in high numbers, and often for committing only minor

offenses. The FBI began looking at two local judges, and when the full picture emerged, it made national headlines. The judges were earning a fortune, carrying out a brazen criminal scheme, one that would shatter the lives of countless children and force a heated debate about punishment, an America's criminal justice system. Follow American scandal wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wonder App.

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