Something Was Wrong - [WCN Presents] SWW S15 E5 Updates // Part 1

Episode Date: June 27, 2024

*Content warning: childhood abuse, child sexual abuse, rape, statutory rape, non-consensual pornography, pedophilia, human trafficking, suicidal ideation, and suicide.Season 15, Episode 5 of Something Was Wrong, [Diana] The Devil in Disguise was released on March 2nd, 2023. In the episode, Diana (mother, medical professional, sister, and friend to many) bravely shares about her relationship with the man who she would eventually find out had sexually abused her daughter and niece. The episode also highlights some of what came next for Diana after the FBI unearthed the truth about her former partner’s abusive behavior and trafficking attempts. The Broken Cycle Media team is deeply grateful that Diana was willing to join us today to share more about her journey, and the recent justice she and all of his other victims have been given. Please note, pseudonyms are used in this episode to protect guests’ anonymity. This episode is in loving memory of Diana's sister, Anne Marie.Something Was Wrong S15 E5 [Diana] The Devil in Disguise: https://wondery.com/shows/something-was-wrong/episode/10716-diana-the-devil-in-disguise/For additional resources and a list of related non-profit organizations, please visit http://somethingwaswrong.com/resources See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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What came next is intended for mature audiences only. Episodes discuss topics that can be triggering, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence, animal abuse, suicide, and murder. I am not a therapist, nor am I a doctor. If you're in need of support, please visit somethingwaswrong.com forward slash resources for a list of non-profit organizations that can help. Opinions expressed by my guests on the show are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of myself or Broken Cycle Media.

Resources and source material are linked in the episode notes. Thank you so much for listening. Hi friends, this is Amy Beechesler of Season 7 of Something Was Wrong and host of What Came Next. If you want to hear more Something Was Wrong updates and other compelling survivor stories, please subscribe to What Came Next on all podcasting platforms and follow us on Instagram at whatcamenext.underscorepodcast. We deeply appreciate the support. Season 15, episode 5 of Something Was Wrong, Diana, the Devil in Disguise, was released on March 2nd, 2023. In the episode, Diana, a mother, sister, and friend to many, bravely shares about her relationship with

the monster who she would eventually find out had sexually abused her daughter and niece. The episode also highlights some of what came next for Diana after the FBI unnerved the truth about her former partner's abusive behavior and trafficking attempts. The Broken Cycle Media team is deeply grateful that Diana was willing to join us today to share more about her journey and the recent justice she and some of his other victims have been given. Please note pseudonyms are used in this episode to protect guests'onymity. I am Diana from Something Was Wrong, season 15, episode 5, The Devil in Disguise. Where we left off, I had found out that I married a man who was also a predator and

a pedophile, without my knowledge, of course. He had been caught on an online kick account with other members sharing pictures and information about my children and my nieces that I was fostering, discussing the things that he had done, what he planned on doing, and he was caught by the FBI. I came home to the FBI at my house after his arrest. The whole snowball effect of what came next that has led into his arrest and his sentencing, really finding out the person that I married was the devil in disguise. When I look back at some of the old episodes that I've listened to from Something is Wrong and What Came Next, I remember the episode about

consent. I didn't consent to marry a pedophile. I didn't consent to be married to a monster. I didn't consent to have my whole life upended. It's such a defraud and his crimes are just so depraved. I appreciate you, Amy and Tiffany, both holding this space for me to where I can give the update to the listeners. I really appreciate it. I can't thank you enough for coming back and walking us through a bit more of the experience. I'm really excited we're doing this today. Your episode was one of the most difficult I've ever had to work on in terms of the weight, the heaviness and the magnitude. Not to compare traumas, but what you experienced and went through was absolutely horrifying. I remember Amy had actually just started working on the production team for Something Was Wrong

in addition to us working behind the scenes on what came next. It was one of the first episodes that Amy helped script. I remember texting her and being like, I'm really sorry that this is one of the first ones that I'm going to have you work on because it is one of the hardest interviews I've ever had to do. It's just really surreal to be the three of us now having this conversation on the other side in a different ear. I'm sure we've all grown a lot since the last time I spoke to you and have been through a lot. I'm so thrilled to be speaking with you again.

It's one of the joys of my life that I get to meet so many amazing people like you and then stay in touch and hear positive updates. Getting to hear how you're doing on the other side of this bullshit now. I just can't wait to hear the good stuff. That makes my heart so happy. I love that I've been able to stay in contact with you girls

and give you all the updates. Your story reached so many people. What was it like to hear your episode back and then have people in your network and your community and support hear that as well? It was very empowering to hear that other people had listened to it and what they took away from it. Tessa listened to the podcast and she said it was very empowering to know that her story was out there, possibly to help other young girls who also listened to the podcast. She said that your voice, Tiffany, is very soothing. She listened to all your other seasons just because she loves the sound of your voice

so much. Gracie, she's my daughter. She was also a victim of Paul's. Family members, they didn't know the full extent of what had happened to Tessa or Gracie. I think it has also been very educational for them as well to understand what we went through. Whenever I went back to work after the podcast came out, I remember I was speaking with one coworker and she's like, Diana, I was standing in my kitchen and I was washing dishes and I was like, that motherfucker. It's just like, yeah, I know, tell me about it. But just being able to have the support and knowing that everybody was behind me, I had a lot of people coming to me and they're like,

this happened to a friend of mine. Can I share the podcast with her because she doesn't want to leave the perpetrator? Talking to coworkers and friends or family who've also listened to the podcast, hearing how it had impacted them, how even other single mothers view certain red flags ahead of time. This may happen to a friend of theirs and they listen to the podcast and be educated about certain things, they can possibly be a light for that other person's darkness and getting them through this traumatic event. And the commonality of it is even worse. Now I've reached out to another woman who has gone through a very similar case. Her ex was in the same kick account as Paul. While she may remain anonymous, she is very near and dear to my heart.

We've developed a friendship that we can come to each other and talk about certain things that are hard subjects. We have been able to form a support group for other women who are in the very beginning stages of navigating how to handle this. Because where I am now, two and a half years after everything, there's women out there who are on day one, just like I was the same day that Paul was arrested. I didn't know how to navigate that, and I found certain things to be able to navigate that. Now, her and I, we can give that information to other women who are in the fire. It's been very rewarding for us to be able to do this. We meet over Zoom once a month, and they know me as Diana.

We talk about their different cases. There's a lot of soundboarding going off of it. This other woman and I try to give advice on how to navigate the legal process, their anxiety and going into the courtroom. We try to walk them through it, okay, this is what you can possibly expect. The different resources that we have found out there, whether it be local or national, things that we've experienced, a little bit of advice that they can use in their own communities because I'm in one state and these women are all across the United States. So there's not a cookie cutter guideline for who you reach out to. We try to give them tips and clues and who to look for. I wish there was more resources out there,

but there just isn't. I think it's so profound, especially because when I connected with you, I connected happenstance with a few other survivors who had been through similar experiences and weren't able to share their stories on the podcast because various reasons, it wasn't the right thing for them at that time. And the number one thing I heard besides the horrific feeling of shock and the trauma of what took place, but the loneliness. There's not often a support

group for this. That was a huge thing that stood out to me was I didn't feel like I had any support. I didn't feel like there was a group for me to join or a message board for me to join. So it makes my heart so happy that you guys have started this support group and you're now able to advocate for the next person. It's amazing that you were strong enough to be able to already begin your advocacy journey before you had even been able to do all of this that you're going to talk about today. I hadn't even shared my story. That's what's so weird to think about too. Not only was seven months ago, your season was 15. I'm just thinking,

wow, I didn't even know I was going to be telling my own story when we were working together yet. And it's people like you that really led to inspiring me to feel strong enough to do so. Thank you. Tiffany said the perfect word, profound. You've spoken to the community that wrap itself around you, but there's a very big difference between loving support and to have somebody that understands as much as they can what you've gone through as well. That's another level of support that is so necessary.

So thank you for creating that for other people. And thank you to the support group leader too. Thank you. I still listen to the episode. I have it bookmarked on my phone just because when I'm having a really, really bad day dealing with the trauma, I go back and listen to it just because I want to remind myself just exactly how strong I am, remind myself of what I have been through and how far I've come.

I hope you often reflect in that power and really commend yourself. I do. I really do. It deserves celebration. I know your kiddos and your loved ones see that as well. Thank you. I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter Frankenpenn.

And in our series, Legacy, we look at the lives of some of the most famous people to have ever lived and ask if they have the reputation they deserve. In this series, we look at J Edgar Hoover. He was the director of the FBI for half a century. An immensely powerful political figure, he was said to know everything about everyone. He held the ear of eight presidents and terrified them all. When asked why he didn't fire

Hoover, JFK replied, you don't fire God. From chasing gangsters to pursuing communists to relentlessly persecuting Dr Martin Luther King and civil rights activists, Hoover's dirty tricks tactics have been endlessly echoed in the years since his death. And his political playbook still shapes American politics today. Follow Legacy Now wherever you listen to podcasts. Divorced beheaded died, divorced beheaded survived. We know the six wives of Henry VIII as pawns in his hunt for a son,

but their lives were so much more than just being the king's wives. I'm Arisha Skidmore Williams. And I'm Brooke Ziffrin. And we're the hosts of Wondery's podcast, Even the Royals. In each episode, we'll pull back the curtain on royal families, past and present, from all over the world, to show you the darker side of what it means to be royalty.

We rarely see Henry VIII's wives in their own light, as women who use the tools available to them to hold on to power. Some women won the game, others lost, but they were all unexpected agents in their own stories. Being a part of a royal family might seem enticing, but more often than not, it comes at the expense of everything else,

like your freedom, your privacy, and sometimes even your head. Follow even the royals on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Go deeper and get more of the story with Wondery's top history podcasts, including American Scandal, Legacy and Black History for Real. When your episode came out, it was before you were going to see him in court and read these victim impact statements that you're going to share with us today, right? It was several months before. I did have a victim advocate. I was introduced to her about

two months before we had our sentencing. Once we had a date set, she had reached out to me and she said, okay, we have this amount of time. This is our court date. Any questions, concerns that you have, let me know. We had emailed back and forth. I had sent her my victim impact statement. She had a couple changes that she wanted me to make. I had said in there a couple times that Paul is a monster and my victim impact advocate, she's like, you can't say that in court, the judge won't allow it. So I was like, okay, fine, I'll change it to pedophile because that's what he is. She said, you can't direct any kind of comments at him. You just need to speak strictly to the judge. You can't turn and look at him and say, Paul, you did this or anything of

that sort. She had told us, you can't have facial expressions. We can't have outbursts. You can't roll your eyes. You can't do certain things that is going to potentially cause a problem with anybody else in the courtroom. She just really walked me through the process of what to expect when we go on the courtroom, what to expect after court, just getting me familiar with everything. It's exhausting because I felt like I was put in this box where I had to be a certain way and act a certain way in giving my impact statement and how his crimes have affected me, my children, my family, my friends. I feel like

I can't even truly tell you exactly how I feel and what he's done because you're not allowing me to express that. You're putting guidelines on what I can and cannot express on how his crimes have affected us. It's just not fair. It brings up so much how difficult it must have been when you're in court literally facing a monster. It's really emotionally exhausting having to be in the room with your abuser, the court process in general, going through the detectors. I'm so sorry that you had to go through that. Do you recall the date of the sentencing? I gave my victim impact statement the same day. That was November 13th of 2023. It was really surreal having to go into the courthouse knowing that he was in the same building. Because

keep in mind, from the time of his arrest to sentencing, it's been nearly two and a half years. I haven't seen this person and I'm anxious, I'm nervous, I'm sick to my stomach. I don't want to have to see him, but I know that I needed to be able to stand there and give my victim impact statement to the judge so that the judge knew how much he has forever changed our lives and the severity of his crimes. It was very nerve wracking being in the courtroom. My hands were sweaty the entire time. I constantly felt like I was gonna get sick. Luckily, his court hearing was a little bit closer to afternoon time, so I was able to

have my coffee and calm down and mentally prepare myself for what I was going to have to do. Going into the courtroom, you go through the metal detectors, you can't bring in your purse, your phone, you can't bring in anything. This is a federal courthouse as well. So they're a little bit more stringent on their rules. We were in a holding area before we were able to go into court. And once we were able to get into the courtroom, you have the defendant's side and you have the plaintiff's side. Our

side of the courtroom was just completely packed, not only with me and my small army, but other victims. Tessa was there along with her oldest sister. Some other family members were there as well, along with the FBI agent who arrested Paul. He wanted to see it through. The other side of the courtroom was completely blank. There was no supporters there for him, not even his family was there. But it was really surreal knowing that he was going to be walking through the door at any point in time. Honestly, whenever he walked through the door, I didn't even know it was him. I didn't recognize him.

He wasn't the person that I remember. His physical attributes have completely changed. You can tell he's obviously not seen sunlight for two and a half years. His skin is gray and ashen. He doesn't even look like a person anymore. I thought that it would affect me differently, that I would be more emotional having to see him. But being able to find that inner strength and pull from that, I did not shed a tear. It was just everybody, as far as attorneys introducing themselves, because this is the first time that I'm meeting the prosecutor and meeting his attorney. There's a lot of introduction on that part and who certain

key people are in the courtroom. The district prosecuting attorney had said that there were several people in the courtroom who had victim impact statements. Some would be read by those people and some she was going to read herself. She gave a layout of how this was going to happen. I had a little bit of a small army of friends around me who volunteered to come, a couple of my work best friends, some family was there. They were all there for me just as support. I had one on each end and one behind me with their hands on my shoulders trying to comfort me. My work best friend, God bless her soul, she kept squeezing my hand and she said, Diana, fix your face. You're starting

to give dirty looks. I did not shed a tear the entire time. I'm so proud of myself for that because I thought for sure, especially reading my victim impact statement, I was going to cry, but I didn't. That was huge. It was strange. It was kind of an out-of-body experience. This is my victim impact statement that I read in court on November 13th of 2023. Your Honor, I want to begin by thanking you and the court for this opportunity so that I can read my victim impact statement. My name is Diana, and I was married to the defendant at the time of his arrest. We were married April 12th, 2018.

When I met the defendant, I thought that I had met the love of my life and my soulmate. On the morning of September 30th, 2021, the world that I lived in came crashing down in an instant. I honestly thought that I had the perfect marriage that my own friends envied, the perfect family and the perfect home.

That is until I found out about the man I married and let adopt my two daughters. September 30th, 2021 will forever be seared in my brain. Even after two years, it is almost impossible to get out of my bed because I don't want to have to relive the trauma that the defendant put me and my family through. On that day, I was notified that there was a very large police presence at my home. After numerous attempts to contact the defendant and no answer, I left work to find out what was going on. I was worried that with the defendant's history of PTSD from his time in Iraq, that he had

done something to himself. I rushed home hoping that I wouldn't find my husband dead. But looking back now, that alternative would have been a lot easier to deal with and a lot more welcome than the hell I was about to walk into. I was met by two FBI agents. One I remember as Sam Sawyer. He had arrested the defendant that day. I was sat down by Mr. Sawyer and he explained to me that he had been observing the defendant in an online group and he was sharing pictures of my children and my nieces, and he was speaking to the things that he had been doing to them

and what he was wanting to do to them sexually. To say that I was in shock is an understatement, perhaps a little bit of denial too. Nobody wants to believe that the man of their dreams turns out to be a pedophile. I remember specifically telling Mr. Sawyer that there had to have been some sort of mix-up because the man that I married was the moral compass of right and wrong.

He was a retired cop, a retired Marine, and retired MP with the Army. There had to have been some mistake. I was informed that the man I married was being charged with sexual exploitation of minors and production and manufacturing of child pornography. My head was spinning and I was trying so desperately to be strong because something inside me told me that this was going to be a true nightmare and that my life would be forever changed. Mr. Sawyer told me that on the following day, they were going to have to bring all of the kids in the home to a child advocacy center. They would have to all be interviewed. And after this was done, he was going to show me the

proof so that I knew I had truly married a monster. I walked into my home that day that was now a disaster because a search horn had been issued for things in my home. I felt violated having strangers in my home going through our personal things, including my own. I understand why they had to do it, but violated still. My world was crashing down right before my very eyes. Everything seemed to be burning down right in front of me. Every promise he ever made to keep me and my daughters

and nieces safe was a complete and utter lie. The following day, I had to take my daughters, my stepson, and my two nieces to be interviewed by the FBI. This was one of the most gut-wrenching experiences of my life. I was told by several other officials that the man I married had been raping

and molesting my oldest niece. I wanted to throw up. Everything I thought I knew about my life had turned out to be a blatant lie. Your Honor, I have read the full transcript of the defendant's indictment. I was sickened to know that these things were happening in my home without my knowledge. I was disgusted knowing that young children were violated in nearly every room of my home. I still live in this home and I can tell you that every day I walk in there and I cringe knowing what he did. Every room I walk into holds memories

and those memories hang heavy in the air. It is something that is pure evil. Since the defendant's arrest, I have learned more and more of what he was doing to my own daughter. She was scared to say anything when she was interviewed and thought that she would get into trouble. The grooming techniques the defendant used on my daughter is sick and twisted.

He told her that she wasn't going to say anything about what he was doing because her mommy wasn't being abused anymore and that her mommy was finally happy. We had a nice home, nice things, and if she said anything, all of these things would go away. How can someone put that on an innocent child? How can a man who swore to love and protect her and go as far as adopt her be so evil? The things that he has done to these victims has caused so much damage to their still developing minds. My niece is still in the process of healing as we all are. My own daughter has wanted to take her

own life. She began cutting herself to get rid of the pain that she felt having been abused by him. The pain of wishing that she could have said something and even blamed herself that if she had said something, maybe she could have prevented her cousin from being raped. This kind of trauma does not just go away. My two daughters and myself have gone to trauma therapy sometimes even two to three times a week. We've been doing this for two and a half years. The trauma of having your adoptive father on the news and the crimes he committed

is beyond embarrassing for my children. They were bullied so badly that when the news of his arrest came out, I had to take my daughters and my nieces out of school for two whole weeks, and they had to do online learning because it was so bad. Both of my daughters, along with myself, have been diagnosed with complex PTSD and anxiety.

I could not eat for months. I lost over 30 pounds in just the first two months following his arrest. I myself have severe nightmares and night terrors after knowing what he did to these victims. I cry out in my sleep all the time and wake up terrified that he is broken out of jail and come back to take my kids across state lines like he said he was going to in the online group. I had to replace all of the beds in the home because I was not going to force my children or myself to sleep in a bed knowing someone was violated in it. Over the last two years, I have come to understand that we are all victims in this case. I was told that for a predator to successfully groom a child, that predator has to first groom the parent. That is exactly what Paul did. He found me and chose me because I was an easy target with two young daughters.

I had low self-esteem, just came out of an abusive marriage, and he used the fact that he used to be a cop to gain my trust. He has and always will be a wolf in sheep's clothing waiting to prey on the innocent victims. He knows what to say and how to act to gain someone's trust. He is a true sociopath and he's good at hiding his true self. This is his first arrest, but I have no doubt that we are not his first victims. You don't just wake up one morning, decide to get into a pedophile group, and share what you are doing and what you have done with perfect strangers. He has perfected his crimes over time and the whole time hiding behind a badge and a uniform, knowing that people won't suspect him at strangers. He has perfected his crimes over time and the whole time hiding behind a badge and a uniform,

knowing that people won't suspect him at all. This has forever changed us and how we view people and the evils in this world. Trust is something that we don't give away anymore. We are cynical of good deeds and questions people's motives. I personally have a very hard time letting anyone get close to my children. This is a trauma response due to what Paul has

done to our entire family. We have lost so much and it isn't anything that you can put a dollar sign on or hand over a check to make the pain and suffering go away. Nothing will ever make things okay and nothing will bring my sister back. My sister was the mother of my niece who Paul raped. My sister struggled with her own mental health,

but after finding out what Paul did to her own daughter, after he swore to protect her and show her how a real father treats their children, it was just too much for her. On October 21st, 2022, my sister, Anne-Marie, mother to Tessa, Avery, and Mackenzie, and grandmother to Willow, left this world. My point is, there are endless victims to Paul's crimes. He has hurt so many people with what he has done, and I don't believe for one second that he has any remorse at all. From the very beginning, he has taken zero accountability for his crimes and even blamed it all on my niece. He claimed that my niece was blackmailing him for sex and that if he didn't comply, she was going to turn him in. Who in their right mind is going

to believe the lies that came out of his mouth? You see, Your Honor, a long time ago, Paul told me that he knew that he was never going to be able to enter into the kingdom of heaven. He claimed it was because of the war and the things he had to do over there. But we all know that that's a lie. I know that he never saw any combat and he made it all up to cover up the fact that he was a coward and he couldn't hack it. He is not the hero and he made it all up to cover up the fact that he was a coward and he couldn't hack it. He is not the hero that he made himself out to be. Deep in the back of his mind, he knew why he wouldn't be able to go to heaven.

He knew that he had always been a person praying on children and violating them. This is why he spoke so much about how much he hated them, because he hated himself. He knew what he was. He would tell our children the same thing, that the family name stood for honor and integrity and how much it meant to not disgrace the family name. The whole time he was disgracing the entire family name. He is a disgrace to law enforcement, the Marines, and the Army. He has taken so much away from me, but that ends today. He will not steal my joy, my laughter, and my light. I will not give any more energy to his memory and what I thought we had or the life that we could have built together. I will not give any more energy to his memory and what I thought we had or the life that

we could have built together. I will go on with my life and I will love again. I will move past this nightmare that he has put me and my family in. He called me two weeks before I found out about this sentencing hearing, and he told me that he wanted me to remember all of the good things he did for me, how he lifted me up and encouraged me to go back to college, how he held me when my mom died, and so on and so forth. All these things are null and void at this point, Your Honor.

He has shown his true colors, and he just didn't want me to stand up here and slander him and tell the court about the true pedophile he is. Your Honor, this man is a fraud, a pedophile, and a severe risk to the community. I ask that you impose the harshest punishment possible for him. He is a wolf in sheep's clothing, and I know in my heart that if this man is able to get out of jail, he will commit these crimes again and maybe worse. In my heart, my children and nieces are not his first victims, but please make them his last victims. Thank you." When I read it the first time in court, the judge had to tell me a couple times, ma'am, we want

to hear what you have to say, but you're talking very fast. We can tell that you're anxious and you have every right to be, but we want to get everything documented. So, slow down, take a breath. I think it was just a lot of anxiety knowing that Paul was right behind me. I didn't know if he was looking at me. I didn't know what was going on. Having him right behind me was a little unnerving, but I felt a lot of power in being able to say what I needed to say to the judge. I could see the empathy from him in his eyes. I made a point to look up frequently to make eye contact with the judge because I wanted him to know how serious I was. I really felt that he heard me with that statement and even reading it

now, it's very empowering to be able to say those words out loud. When I was giving my statement, I was at a podium and Paul was behind me and off to the side. Even when I was walking to the podium, I did not make eye contact with him. I didn't want to. My friends who were back in the pews, they said the entire time he just stared at the floor. He made no eye contact with the judge, nobody. We're so incredibly sorry for the horrific loss of your sister. Thank you.

I remember hearing the first version of your impact statement that you read on the podcast. I'm actually really glad that you got to read the first version on your impact statement that you read on the podcast. I'm actually really glad that you got to read the first version on the podcast, even though they made you change certain parts of it, because he is certainly a monster. I'm so sorry for everything that you have gone through at the hands of this monster. He's a monster.

And the fact that they would not allow you to say that word does not negate the fact that he is a monster. Absolutely. That's what he is, he's a monster. In all reality now, I can say it here on the podcast and millions of people will hear it. Whether or not the judge hears it, he is a monster. As you highlighted in your statement, there are endless victims and ripple effects in this story. It's endless harm that this person did. And as we know, trauma of this kind has lifelong consequences.

I agree. It's not just me and my children and my nieces, it's his friends, his family, people he served in the military with people he was on law enforcement with. They were also victims in this because he defrauded everybody. This episode is dedicated in loving memory to Diana's sister Anne Marie. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. Next on What Came Next. Listening to the judge, his tone was getting stronger and stronger and louder and louder until the point he was

screaming. He handed Paul his ass, and rightfully so. I got the full transcript from the court. That way, all of the listeners know how the judge felt about this entire case. Yes, Judge. Hell yeah. What came next is a Broken Cycle Media production co-produced by Amy B. Chesler and Tiffany Reese. If you'd like to help support What Came Next, you can leave us a positive review, support our sponsors, or follow Broken Cycle Media on Instagram at Broken Cycle Media. Check out the episode notes for sources, resources, and to follow our guests.

Thank you again for listening. on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.