Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Dance Moms

Episode Date: September 17, 2024

We’re baaaAAAAAaaaaack!!! Join us for a 🪐transcendent🪐 new season of Sounds Like A Cult, whose opening episode features Chelsea Charles, one of our sparklingly hilarious new co-hosts. An unscripted TV producer by day, Chelsea joins returning host Amanda to unpack this week’s nightmarish topic: Dance Moms. Indeed, we’re exploring every culty corner of the fanatically followed Lifetime reality show, which centers on a group of competitive child dancers, their high-drama mothers, and their veritable cult leader of a teacher, Abby Lee Miller *shudders*. It mightttt sound dramatic to call this goofy little TV program a cult, but the sky-high exit costs, rampant verbal abuse, lifelong trauma, obsessed fan behaviors, and scandalizing financial crimes say otherwise!!! Tune in as Amanda and Chelsea dissect the show’s cultiest characteristics, and their broader implications, with the help of The Pyramid Podcast.  Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod @amanda_montell @chelseaxcharles @reesaronii Watch the new season of Sounds Like A Cult on YouTube! To order Amanda's new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking: Notes on Modern Irrationality, click here. To subscribe to Amanda's new Magical Overthinkers podcast, click here :) Thank you to our sponsors!  Shop the SKIMS bras at SKIMS.com. After you place your order, select "Sounds Like A Cult" in the survey and select our show in the dropdown menu that follows. Dipsea is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/cult.  Head to Squarespace.com for a free trial, and when you’re ready to launch, go to https://www.squarespace.com/CULT to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Get 20% off your first order of Liquid I.V. when you go to LiquidIV.com and use code CULT at checkout

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for that. Dive into the mystery and celebrate June's Journey's 7th anniversary. Download it for free on iOS and Android today and gear up for thrilling new adventures. To watch this episode on video, check out the Sounds Like A Cult YouTube channel at the link in our show notes. Culties, you know how much I love Skims bras. They're the only bras I wear. Shop Skims bras at skims.com. Now available in 62 sizes from 30A to 46H.

If you haven't yet, be sure to let them know we sent you. After you place your order, select podcast in the survey and select our show in the dropdown menu that follows. Add a little extra spice to your life this fall with our sponsor, Dipsy. For listeners of the show, Dipsy is offering an extended 30 day free trial when you go to dipsystories.com slash cult. That's 30 days of full access for free when you go to D I P S E A stories.com slash cultAStories.com slash cult, DipsyStories.com slash cult. Thank you to our sponsor Squarespace.

Start with a free trial at Squarespace.com. It's where dreams become websites. Head to Squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to HTTPS colon slash slash www.squarespace.com slash cult to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Start a new fall tradition with Liquid IV. Get 20% off your first order of Liquid IV when you go to liquidiv.com and use code

cult at checkout. That's 20% off your first order when you shop better hydration today using promo code cult at liquidiv.com. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. She's doing this thing that a lot of cult leaders do of like moving the goalpost all the time. I, as a child, thought that my job was to win first place, but you're telling

me that it wasn't by a big enough margin. So it would have been better if I had just lost because I didn't win the right way. And so you're always just like, what is going on? It literally reminds me of Scientology because every time you've completed a course that they tell you is the last course that you need to go clear, there's another fucking course along the bridge to total freedom. That mind play! That's insane! It's crazy.

This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Amanda Montell, author of the books Cultish and The Age of Magical Overthinking. And I'm Chelsea Charles, an unscripted TV producer and Sounds Like a Cult's new cohost. Every week on this show, we discuss a different fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist from corporate America to Catholic school to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, But is it really? And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? A live-your-life, a watch-your-back, or a get-the-fuck-out? After all, not every culty-seeming group these days is equally

destructive. The point of this show is to scrutinize how cult influence shows up in everyday life, to poke a little bit of fun at human search for meaning, and to critique how power abuse shows up in places you might not think to look. Like a reality TV show starring children. Okay, Chelsea, new co-host. I was just saying before we started recording,

this is so surreal. For those who did not tune into our little intro episode, mini-sode last week, could you please tell the culties a little bit about yourself? Because I cannot get over how perfect it is that your debut episode is discussing the Cult of Reality TV program. Yes, this is absolutely ridiculously surreal. So I produce the genre television, many of you would deem your guilty pleasure. I've produced on Naked and Afraid of Love, five seasons of Temptation Island. And not even 24 hours ago, I hopped off a plane from Fiji after producing the show

that's taken over all of our, for you, pages, Love Island USA. It's the zeitgeist. I was just telling you, I'm taking a pottery class right now because I'm trying to get a fucking hobby. It's not yet the cult I want it to be.

Like, I really want my fellow ceramicists and I to trauma bond. Yep. The issue is that I'm the worst one in class. And so I feel ostracized. It's okay. It is okay. But last class, we were going around introducing ourselves because there was a new student with our name and a show that we're currently watching. We're recording this in late July of 2024. There are 10 people in class, eight out of the 10 people said they were watching Love Island.

And I was like, Chelsea is the culture. Yeah, it's actually for a period of time, while I was shooting the show, everything I was looking at was geared towards Love Island. And so I was thinking, is this just my for you page because I'm here? Is it tracking my location? And then I started getting all these text messages that now everyone's watching

for sure the show that I'm actively creating. It's kind of weird and icky, but you know, that's that's what it's about right now. You're a cult leader. Yeah. And a follower. Yeah. No, absolutely. Incredible. Well, actually, absolutely. Incredible. Well, actually, I wanted to break the ice a little bit with sharing a few cults that I'm actively a part of. Oh, thank God. Some that I subscribe to. OK, so House of Dragon, Prevail Boxing Club, Niche Perfume TikTok, Cleaning TikTok.

OK, Father Algorithm wants you to tidy up. Yes, yes. I watch people clean toilets and sinks and pools. I don't even have a pool, but I like watching that. It's tradwife adjacent. Yes. Oh, I forgot to mention that I am Nara Smith cult subscriber. Oh my God. Tequila supremacy. Okay. Yes. Sure. That's a John. Nara Smith cult subscriber.

Oh my God. Tequila supremacy. Okay. Yes. Sure. That's a thing. Yes. The people that are like, I don't drink that type of tequila. I drink this type of tequila. Yep. It's a thing.

Okay, great. And then last but not least, humans against the usage of raisins. H-A-T-U-O-R.ins. H A T U O R. Yep. Hatoir. Exactly. You could probably get government funding.

Exactly. And I've gotten a few followers. OK. Because I am very, very vehemently against raisins because they look like roaches. Such a good point. Yes. They look like so many unpleasant things.

Yes. Deer poop. Yes. Oh my God, yeah. You know? Another thing for me to have nightmares about. I'm so sorry. They are a Rorschach test of unpleasantness.

No, they're disgusting. They are, they're disgusting. You're so right. What about like a fresh grape though? I love grapes. Okay. I think it's just the weird little wrinkly. Aches.

Damn. Wow. What an incredibly good idea to introduce yourself to the culties via the cults that you are in. Yes. So intimate. We're really learning so much, but we are here today to talk about the cult of dance moms. Maybe one day, depending on your NDA situation,

we can talk about Love Island, but this will have to do for today. And I'm excited to talk about this show because it's different and possibly even cultier than the reality TV cults that we've covered in the past, including, for example, Love is Blind and The Real Housewives. And I think that might be true for a few reasons.

A, it involves kids who are obviously inherently more pure and thus more vulnerable and easier to exploit than the typical reality TV star. That said, we have done an episode on reality TV families, including The Duggars, where we interviewed Jill Dugger. But Dance Moms is even different from those types of shows because the kids involved here are striving to achieve transcendence in the form of talent and fame.

And at times they really do. So there's this incredible sense of elitism and hierarchy involved here with one super unique charismatic leader at the top. Yeah, so I feel like we need a little bit of exposition for those healthy enough not to know what the cult of Dance Moms even is. The cult of Dance Moms. I just want to put this out there that this cult has a large, large fandom. This cult has a large, large fandom. Okay?

We acknowledge you. We see you. We respect you. We fear you. Although we can't get into every nook and cranny of this cult, we will introduce some guests later on who have made it their business to know everything there is about the cult of Dance Moms. Yeah. Do stick around.

We're going to be chatting with the co-hosts of a Dance Moms recap podcast called The Pyramid Podcast. And it's titled that for a reason. We will get into it. Let me just get into some background. Basically this long running cult fave reality TV series that is Dance Moms premiered on Lifetime in 2011, which is insane, but I guess it does make sense

because the girlies are all grown up. Yeah, they're adults now. They're adults with trauma. And it ran for a long ass time. It ran until 2019 and it centered on this group of very talented dancing children between, at least in the first season, the ages of six and 13. They were members of the Abby Lee Dance Company,

AKA the ALDC in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And the way that the show worked was that every single week these kids would compete in dance competitions all over the country accompanied by their obsessive drama-filled dance moms, like a stage mom, but knows their way around a rhinestone. You know? Yep. And now, a quick word from our cult-followed sponsors who make the show possible.

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this app. I genuinely recommend it to all of my romance novel loving friends. I love how there's truly something for everyone on Dipsy whether you're into like historical fiction or romantic or you're looking for some sapphic themes or I don't know Western cowboy cowgirl whatever you like. I sincerely recommend checking it out this cozy fall. For listeners of the show Dipsy is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to dipsystories.com slash cult. That's 30 days of full access for free when you go to D I P S E A stories.com slash cult. Dipsystories.com slash cult. I wanted to first ask you as an unscripted reality TV producer, yes. What about Dance Moms based on your bit of research and knowledge of this franchise?

What do you think makes it different in the reality show space? So for me, what makes Dance Moms so unique is the villain antagonist, Abby Lee Miller. Before we've never had like that main character be the villain. Rarely ever before that was the main focal point of the show, the villain, the antagonist.

In storytelling, we call that a complex character, right? So a person that you can actually see like in your family members, somebody who is flawed, somebody who, you know, like you show up each week to watch them fail or do good, you know? Yeah. We have that in reality TV. Obviously we've historically seen characters of an ensemble that are that way, but never have we seen the main

person be a complex character. Right, because on The Bachelor, the central character is infallible. Absolutely. Censored beyond watchability in my opinion. Absolutely. And this is like the ultimate anti-hero like low-key the Walter White of reality. Yeah. Which is Abby Lee Miller. That is so fascinating. But do you think she conceives of herself as a villain? Oh, absolutely not. Well, I feel like maybe in the beginning, she did not. And then once the show starts to get this fandom attached to it,

it goes to your head, obviously. Yes. You have to lean more into that. Yes. Yes. So, I mean, I can't say that if I weren't in her position, I wouldn't see all the craze that I have essentially started and kind of lean more into it.

I mean, even I can relate to that. Yeah. Like on this, because if you are on a reality show or if you are on a podcast and get ready to learn this intimately, like your persona and your real life self start to coalesce. Absolutely. And you have to do some very conscious compartmentalization and disentangling and like literal therapy work to like keep them separate.

Yes. But if you may be like, I have a personality disorder, you're like gonna be unable to do that. Especially like if the whole show is built on your back the way that it is for her. I wonder if it was hard for her to swallow that the show was called Dance Moms. Yeah, I would imagine so.

She probably wanted it to be in her name, you know what I'm saying? Yes, yes. I mean, obviously they are ancillary characters, right? But it's not really about the moms. The moms, no, it's not. But Dance Moms is a better title than like the Abby Lee Miller show. Exactly.

And there is actually a spinoff of Dance Moms that was her show named after her called Abby's Ultimate Dance Competition, which was like a dance competition, American Idol style for these kids. Wow. And I have to believe that it had to do with the fact that the original show was not named after her, you know? She needed, she needed something in her name. She needed it.

So I have to say that one of the reasons why I wanted to cover this topic was selfishly, I am actually in this reality TV cult. I don't watch a ton of reality TV, but this show found me in a particularly vulnerable moment. I started watching it in 2013 when I was in LA alone for a summer because I was visiting my then toxic ex. He was always working. He was always drinking.

I needed someone to keep me company. And that summer I discovered Dance Moms and there was something about the complexity of Abby Lee Miller and the talent of these children and the juxtaposition of like glory and pain on the show that was really addictive and like oddly comforting. And so I binged season after season of Dance Moms during that lonely time and cults famously

often find their followers in a vulnerable state. And I can't say that I'm like in the fan forums and shit of Dance Moms. I haven't let it completely take over my life, but I do like the lore and I have kept up with some of the cast members on YouTube and stuff. No judgment. Thank you. Thank you so much. Because it would be fair to judge. This is a fucked up show. This is like probably one of the most fucked up reality shows ever. Okay, but this is the thing. It wasn't the first, because Toddlers and Tiaras came first.

True. And then came Dance Moms, but this show worked so well that it then spawned kind of spin-offs, if you will. I don't know if you were able to get into the cult of Bring It. Did you watch Bring It? No. So Bring It literally was the exact same format

as Dance Moms, except it was geared towards a more urban demographic. Oh. And so there was the same villainous coach character. Yeah. Black lady, I think her name was Diana Williams, Coach D. And it was the exact same show. And you showed up each week to watch Coach D

cuss out these little kids. Little kids. Isn't that like subs love shows like this? This is what I wanna know. Cause I'm just like, I feel Abby Lee yelling at me and it's cathartic. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just like destroy me because my fuetes are not on point.

But you know what? I loved Toddlers and Tiara's also a deeply toxic show. So toxic. So toxic. But I think the reason why Dance Moms and its sister shows like Bring It developed more of an obsessed fandom around them is because the kids on the show are like truly so talented.

Yes, they were. Yeah. Yes, they were. Whereas like, you know, the Toddlers and Tiara's, I can't say the same. But what I think was very interesting about these dance moms at the ALDC was that they would sit perched in this like glass mezzanine watching down upon their children, every single class and they would like persnick it every little move and get into fights with Abby. The main kids on the show, the ones known as the OGs,

are now, as we mentioned, in their early 20s. A couple of them went on to gain slightly more mainstream fame, including Maddie Ziegler. She's a little girl in the Sia Chandelier video. She's also now an actress, and I actually just saw her walking down my street. Oh, wow. Yeah, with long, long black hair.

She looked gorgeous. I wanna be like, excuse me, will you be my guest on another of my fucking podcasts? her walking down my street. Oh, wow. Yeah. With long, long black hair. She looked gorgeous. I want to be like, excuse me. Will you be my guest on my fucking podcast? And then I rehearsed that in my brain and also Jojo Siwa. Jojo, my girl. Really? I love Jojo Siwa.

I think maybe I do too. Why do you love her? Oh, I think that she's ridiculous. Right. And so I love ridiculous things in people. And I also love the fact that JoJo is just, she leans into the cringe. And I'm down with that. There is something to be learned from that.

Absolutely. In small doses. Yeah. I mean, she has been completely ruined by the cult of capitalism, the cult of Nickelodeon, the cult of Hollywood, have like put her through a Willy Wonka machine and spat out someone who is like put her through a Willy Wonka machine and spat out someone who is like scarcely human.

She has probably a whole cornucopia of personality disorders. But at the end of the day, karma slaps and was in my head after I watched the video. I've never watched so many YouTube deep dives on like the corruption of a child star. Yeah, I keep doing the choreo. Do you? Yes. Let's see a little bit. She invented it. She invented it. I'm convinced of it. Okay. There was actually just a Dance Moms reunion special, which my friend and I like raced home to watch. Oh, so you were deep in. I guess I am. I'm not deep in enough not to have enjoyed it.

That's the thing. A lot of the deep, deep fans were disappointed by the Dance Moms reunion, but I didn't take it that seriously. I was just like, oh, look how beautiful they all are. And they're all unpacking what happened to them, and they're crying, and that was enough for me. But the deep, deep fandom, the discourse was discoursing.

I wasn't truly a part of that. So Chelsea, there are a lot of personalities on Dance Moms, but as far as cult analysis is concerned, could you please tell us a little bit more about what made Abby Lee Miller a true cult leader type? So as soon as Dance Moms premiered, it immediately had fans in a chokehold. Abby Lee Miller was the company's owner and she had the traumatize you to make you a star approach. That approach to teaching included love bombing, crass language, screaming, manipulation, and ultimately legitimate criminal activity. Her approach gave fans this addictive car crash of talent,

abuse, and drama to tune into week after week, season after season. Abby tore down dancers and moms alike to build them back again. Why do people love this? I mean, there is an Abby Lee Miller in every family I think. My grandmother is the Abby Lee Miller of my family. As you were reading that list of culty teaching slash manipulation techniques I realized I think one of the reasons why watching

the show comforted me is because there was a nostalgia in it. I remember being a theater kid, having these tyrannical community theater directors who would scream at you, humiliate you in front of your fellow performers for what? Not having your faux lashes on, right? Or your crow's feet drawn on perfect. And obviously that's not correct to like treat children that way. But when I think about that really passionate,

highly connected time in my life, I think like, oh, that was actually a really good time. Even though there was like some power abuser at the helm, we were all like really bonded. We were really driven. There was a lot of meaning. The like hostility contributed to that. Absolutely. And so like, I get it.

Yeah, I'm a theater kid as well. And so the relationship that I have with my mentor to this day, when I describe it to other people and I'm like, no, he used to like literally tear into us. But it still gave me the audacity to show up in like work spaces No, he used to like literally tear into us, but it still gave me the audacity to show up in like work spaces and be so confident in myself because I like trauma bonded with a whole bunch of people over hating this person, but also loving this person.

Yes. It's weird. Yes. It's so weird. It is. And when you watch it as an outsider, like when I watch Abby Lee Miller treating these kids this way,

my instinct is to be like, you need to get the fuck out. Or the parents need to get them the fuck out. But then my inner child knows why they keep going. Absolutely. Cause you want their affection. Cause as much as someone says, you know, says all the bad things, it makes you want to show up and do better.

Yes, yes. Like low key, I want Abby Lee Miller's approval. Absolutely. And we want to get revenge on her. Yeah. We want to stick it to her. Yeah, absolutely. So one of Abby's most notorious and emblematic displays of culty behavior was her infamous pyramid. And who better to help us get into this culty analysis

than two very special guests who are dance moms obsessed in the cult, leading a certain portion of the cult. It's none other than Eli and Amanda, hosts of The Pyramid Podcast, a Dance Moms recap pod, which dissects each episode layer by layer. Please welcome the host of the Pyramid Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the best, point blank.

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Yes, I'll go first. Hi, my name is Amanda. I found my way into the cult of Dance Moms when the show was originally airing. I found my way into the cult of dance moms. When the show was originally airing, I was kind of in that era of my life where it was, you know, toddlers and tiaras and my strange addiction. And then like dance moms just kind of naturally

was like a part of that. And it was like this really weird time in like the 2010s where reality TV was just kind of about this quote unquote weird category. So it was like toddlers and tiaras, look at this family and how they're weird and my strange addiction and that kind of stuff. And so Dance Moms was kind of born into that era. And I grew up a theater kid and a dance kid, choir kid, band kid, all of the artsy

fartsy stuff. And my sister also did all these things with me. And so we would TiVo Dance Moms and we would sit down and watch it when we you know, had a free 30 seconds at home. So yeah, I watched them as they came out. The way that I interact with Dance Moms is through Amanda, I did not watch Dance Moms at all. When I was younger, I was not a part of the dance community. The way that this happened was Amanda started our podcast, The Pyramid, a couple of years ago

and would have like rotating guests on. And then eventually was like, it's too difficult to schedule my friends because sometimes they flake out, Eli, do you wanna just be here all the time? I was like, yeah, I live three minutes down the road, let's just do that. And so I've learned a great deal about Dance Moms

through recording our episodes of the podcast. But prior to two years ago, I had no exposure to it whatsoever. His exposure is against his will. Yes. Truly. I'm held hostage. Yeah. Again, this is a cult ultimately.

Okay. Yeah. Exactly. And it's good for the dynamic to have an outsider because if you two were both equally a part of this cult, it would just to the listener it would sound like two Scientologists speaking in tongues. You know what I'm saying? Like, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then that wouldn't be interesting. It would be inscrutable. But to get serious for a second off the top, when we say the cult of Dance Moms, what does that mean to you exactly? What rituals, power dynamics, crimes, fan behaviors, etc. might spring to mind?

I think for me, it's about the longevity and the staying power of something that is objectively ridiculous. We as a society understand that Abby Lee Miller as a person is in the wrong. She is not of the highest moral fiber. But for 10 years, going on 15 years, if you go back to the beginning episode was in 2010, almost 15 years, people are like still interested in what she is doing as a person in a way that people are like, oh, I wonder what happened to like this group of people, this like Google search of like, next CM cult, where are they now kind of thing does happen when you Google Abby Lee Miller. And I think it's not even that people agree with her. Like you'll always have people who have left

or escaped cults that still are like, I trust this person. I still think they're right. I still believe all the stuff I believe. It's not that. No one thinks that she like is God's gift to education. No one thinks anything like that allegiance wise. People are just interested.

And there's this like lasting lingering kind of like, I can't not think about this woman and these kids and these moms and what happened to them. So to me, it's that over time thing, that like brain worm thing that is really cultish to me. Overall, I think Dance Moms is kind of indicative of just like reality TV in general, that kind of is its own cult as well.

And what is interesting for me about Dance Moms is that like, and Abby Lee Miller particularly, I don't know anyone like her. I have never interacted with, like, you know, I was not only was I a student for most of my life, but then a teacher as well. And so even in education with all the exposure I had to it, I don't know anyone that's like her.

And so like, I find myself being kind of like awestruck by just this whole dynamic that she has. And she has this like gravity to her as like this, you could say cult leader. There's a reason that everyone like wants to stay at this dance studio and be a part of this thing and watch this TV show. She's got this like magnetic thing about her. Something that like a lot of cult leaders have is just this it factor that everyone's just drawn to them for some reason. So I think that's a large part of what the viewership

is about is just like, wow, I'm just so like drawn to this person. Yes, I have completely taken for granted how like, I believe that the Abby Lee Dance Company is the best place for someone who wants to be a star dancer to take class. Like I've just accepted that. We haven't even scrutinized that. Until this very moment, I never thought about it,

but like, do we know her educational background? Like what's her level of expertise in dance? Yes, there's, yeah, there is so much that is unknown and I have so many questions for this woman. And also there is like a lot available on the internet about her background. And like, when you get into that space emotionally of like what gives her the right,

there was a time when she had the right. She may not have it anymore, but she did have this like experience. She did have a mentorship. She did have sort of credentials. Like she did know what she was talking about. And then at a certain point, how you treat people obviously begins to weigh a lot more than what you know.

It's not what you know, it's how you make people feel kind of thing. So yeah, she was accredited and backed up by this like dance masters group that has chapters all over the country and it's like this network of dance educators and she was accredited by them but in like 2011 she had that accreditation revoked because the dance masters board they were like she doesn't represent us she doesn't represent good dance education we're taking that back so she started out maybe potentially knowing what she was talking about. And then cult of personality takes over your education.

It doesn't matter how much you know, you are acting crazy. Yeah. And yet she is so compelling. Like she has the oratory stylings of certain problematic, overconfident populists. I'm not gonna like give her the credit of saying, it's giving Jim Jones, but it's not not giving Jim Jones. Yes, I think about her and I think about Keith Renieri really similarly from the Nexium group,

because Keith Renieri would say just like the most jaw dropping, if it were out of the cult context, it's like, what is this man saying? And why do people just like agree with him? And then you add in the context of like the cult that was around him and you add in all these different extemporaneous factors and it's like, oh, okay, I can understand how people would just buy into this. But like standalone poll quote wise, crazy stuff being said by both.

Yeah. Well, it just goes to show, I mean, with these populist leaders, it's never about what they say, it's about the energy, it's about the delivery, and it's about the exhaustion of their followers. Like, no one was more exhausted than those Nexium members playing volleyball

and who knows fucking what. Yeah. Grants on their hip bones. And no one's more exhausted than these little kids learning a new dance every week, not having a hot second to question shit. Right. Yeah. So at this point in the conversation,

we have to talk about Abby Lee Miller's Pyramid, which was this centerpiece of dance moms. It ranked these child performers on a visual pyramid based on their performance for the week. Apparently filming these pyramid scenes could take all day, I have heard, and they were legitimately traumatizing for participants. Chloe Lukasiak, one of the fan favorite dancers on the show, one of the OGs who was framed as Abby's favorite dancer, Maddie's main competitor was treated like shit the whole time

and abruptly left the show in season four due to a contract dispute, et cetera, has reflected in years since about how messed up the pyramid was in a screen rant article. She was quoted as saying, quote, let's rank children and tell them how horrible they are. The pyramid is harmful to young dancers and promotes an unhealthy environment, raking children.

Whether it is on a pyramid or not, it is harmful. Every child should be seen as an individual and be seen for their strengths and talents. For real. Yeah, that was a huge problem. The first episode we saw was like, wait, she's openly ranking the children in front of one another.

And so that whole process is, Chloe said it beautifully there, but that whole process is so harmful because it doesn't allow you to think about ways that you need to improve as a dancer, as an artist. It instead pits you against your fellow performers and ways that you can beat them. Not that you can be better yourself and improve.

And in this way, she very much entrenches herself as a cult leader because she is not the enemy anymore. Her approval is the thing to be desired. And the only way to do that is by taking down all those around you to become the favorites. And we're almost to the end of season three at our point in recording. And at this point, like the kids still all like

love each other. So like, despite her best efforts, the kids are still like all getting along, but they're very much still is that element where they just want to impress Abby, they just want to make Miss Abby happy. They want to do whatever they can to get to the top of the pyramid. The moms talk about getting to the top of the pyramid. And I chuckled as you

were introducing this question, because you said, you know, it's based on like the dancers performance and like 80% of the time, it kind of isn't. It's kind of based on the moms at the end of the day. Like you're on the bottom of the pyramid because your mom said something kind of sideways to me. And so I'm going to punish you for the next six months. Sometimes it's based on them and sometimes based

on their moms and sometimes it's based on nothing but vibes, which is even worse. There is a lot of the time that the pyramid is like the central thing. It is what they desire. Like, do I have Miss Abby's approval or not? But at the same time, like, I think part of what enhances this pyramid experience is like what Eli was saying,

that it's not based on the same thing every week. And if you are, quote unquote, talented enough or maybe your mom was quiet enough to the point where you got to be at the top of the pyramid, Abby would tell you like jokes on you, idiot, because it's hard to get to the top, but it's even harder to stay there. So she's doing this thing that a lot of cult leaders do of like moving the goalpost all the time of like, I as a child thought that my job was to win first place. But you're telling me that it wasn't by a big enough margin. So

it would have been better if I had just lost because I didn't win the right way. And so you're always just like, what is going on in a room with all the lights off feeling around for like, where's the approval from the adult in my life that's also yelling at me? Oh my God, it literally reminds me of Scientology

because every time you've completed a course that they tell you is the last course that you need to go clear, there's another fucking course along the bridge to total freedom. Mind play, that's insane. It's crazy. I mean, if we go down the checklist of red flags,

it's actually so hilariously on the nose. It's like, what makes a cult, this is very subjective, but there are certain things that you can definitively say are cultish, like an extreme sense of hierarchy, the cult of personality, that sense of approval that you mentioned, the constant false promise of like, if you achieve this, you will finally reach enlightenment, that like creating chaos among your members as a way to retain ultimate power. Yes. Keep them very like divisive, you know,

keep everyone in constant competition with each other. For your approval. Yeah. And I didn't even notice the symbol of the pyramid as like a cultish red flag. It's like, come on, man. She's not even trying to hide it. I'm like, girl, you could at least try a little to be sneaky. And she's not. She's like, I'm ranking you based on whether or not I like you. And that's trying to hide it. I'm like, girl, you could at least try a little to be sneaky. And she's not.

She's like, I'm ranking you based on whether or not I like you. And that's just kind of it. But don't you think that's one of the main characteristics of a quote unquote cult leader? They kind of do things where they're like hiding in plain sight. Cause to me, I feel like the pyramid thing

was just so on the nose, but I kind of feel that way with most cult leaders, like they do things just because they have the audacity to do it. They're getting in front of it almost. Yeah. They're like, you can't call me a like psychopathic nonsense cult leader because I'm getting to it first. Right. What's really interesting about that is like, they no longer can say that like, well, Abby, you lied to us. She's like, no, I've been telling you this whole time.

She can claim honesty. She's like, you knew what you were signing up for. And so by being honest, quote unquote, she's like putting the onus back on them. Like, oh wait, we did decide to do this. Oh wait, she did tell us that the pyramid is kind of arbitrary. This is our fault that we were confused or whatever right now. And so it's another manipulation. It's gaslighting. Yeah. Oh my God. Not to like completely foreshadow or to jump to the punchline too early, but like this exact phenomenon that you're naming is one of the reasons why it's so difficult to hold classic cult leaders

accountable legally, because they can always make the argument that their followers consented to this abuse. And so like being emotionally abused, manipulated, and exploited for years on end, there are a lot of ways to frame that as perfectly on the books, not illegal whatsoever. And speaking of Keith Raniere, the only reason he was put in jail was not because he like Psychologically fucked people for years and years and years, which is damaging enough to follow you for the rest of your life extremely traumatizing it's because he was convicted of this unprecedented dual charge of racketeering and sex trafficking and Similar to Abby Lee Miller and we'll get to this later

trafficking and similar to Abby Lee Miller and we'll get to this later, you cannot imprison her for screaming at children. You have to convict her of a financial crime as a cult leader. Right. Yeah. But let's talk a little bit more about Abby Lee Miller's quote unquote charisma question mark. In a 2013 article in the Guardian titled Dance Moms Awful but Addictive, Abby Lee's toxic behavior over the years is dissected and put on display. Writer Sarah Dempster talks about how Abby would yell curse words to pre-pubescent teens and coined the problematic mantras that continue to live

rent-free in these girls' heads for years later. She screamed phrases like, more butt! Or, everyone is replaceable. First of all, can you imagine how detrimental that is to a teenager or somebody who's not even a teenager yet. These impressionable minds. It's insane. The author writes, It's impossible to overstate how unpleasant this woman is. Her MO is breathtakingly simple. She shouts at people until they agree to do what she wants them to do. In one of many orchestrated fight scenes,

Abby tells an exhausted infant to suck it up. I don't want to see those tears. And to another, she threatens to take this all away from you while doing hand symbols so violent that Christy's head vibrates like a gong. I mean, when written in black and white ink, it is absolutely confounding to think that we've all consumed so much of this series.

And yet, we've been trying to get to the bottom of why this is not only addictive, but acceptable. We got into it a little bit in terms of her background, but could you tell Abby Lee Miller's story as a cult leader? Where did she come from and how did she transform into this leader at the helm of a massively popular reality empire? Yeah, so these are the things we know about Abby for sure. Abby, like most cult leaders, is an unreliable narrator, so you kind of have to take everything she says with a grain of salt of like,

I don't really know if you started your dance company at 14. We do know that her mom was a dance teacher and Abby herself didn't really find a lot of success as a performer, but she thought like, oh, I can kind of fill in the same educator role that my mom plays. And as I kind of mentioned earlier, she was a certified member of the Dance Masters of America and her membership was revoked in

2012 because of the way that the show framed dance education. They put out a statement. She does not go here. She is not a part of our group. Absolutely not. And then like the show kind of picks up speed. She starts getting the money and she starts getting the celebrity guest appearances on the view and like all these different things. Abby Lee Miller was arrested in 2015 on some different accounts that are connected to her filing bankruptcy. And what I think is so interesting is that Abby filed bankruptcy in 2010, before the show aired.

So Lifetime, I think kind of came in and found this like at the risk of dying kind of dance studio and Found out that maybe it was because Abby sucks and they were like, oh, let's make a TV show about this and how she's like a nightmare of a person and then she like started getting money and then What I think is like the most interesting thing about the downfall of Abby Lee Miller. This is all kind of like I think it's like the most interesting thing about the downfall of Abby Lee Miller. This is all kind of like speculation. Again, we have to take all this with a grain of salt.

But allegedly there was a judge who was working on her bankruptcy case, who was scrolling through like channel surfing one night on TV and saw a commercial for Dance Moms. And he thought, that's the woman who's filing bankruptcy. How is she filing bankruptcy if she's on my TV? And that is how she got got. She was arrested for like secret bank accounts

and withholding evidence of bankruptcy and all these things. So this overly terrible personality that she has is what led to her downfall. This like flying too close to the sun, Icarus kind of thing. If you had just like sat back and had a TV show, you would have been terrible baseline, but now you're terrible and you went to prison.

And that's really awful. You know what I mean? That is such a fascinating rise and fall story. And yeah, it reminds me so much of this cultish pattern that I see time and time again, which is like our attraction to watching cult documentaries. And one could argue that Dance Moms is a cult documentary. Is we're scanning to see if these characters are a threat to us. That's like the rubber necking of it all, right? Like we cannot look away from this car crash, not because there's some fucked up,

bloodthirsty voyeur inside of it all, right? Like we cannot look away from this car crash, not because there's some fucked up bloodthirsty voyeur inside of us all, it's because we're like, oh, what would Abby Lee Miller think of me? Have I ever met someone like Abby Lee Miller and is that person going to reenter my life? How can I prevent someone from Abby Lee Miller in me? And so I think that's part of the addictive relationship that so many viewers have to these dynamics.

Yeah, I think too, something that I always revisit is that for most of the episodes, there is a dance competition that they're attending like every week. The dancers are good. Like it's not like she is berating and degrading these children at all hours and then they go to these competitions and they constantly waffle or they constantly lose. Later on it's pretty apparent that the competitions are cooked up for the

benefit of the show but in the first like half I would say they're like honest competitions where the students are going to compete to perform and they are so good and that to me was always the draw like as it was airing like as an original watcher yeah she's screaming but like is she right? Yeah it's so strange to me how like constantly like new dancers are coming in from across the country like your nightmarish personality is on display on tv every single week. People are like, yes, I want to be around that. I would never want to be a part of something like that. But people are like, I don't know if they think that like,

she's a legit good dance teacher, or they just want to be a part of this phenomenon that's happening on TV for better or worse. But it is so strange how she draws people in. And kind of a follow up to that, I would ask is obviously as a child, you see an adult as an authoritative figure. So you trust her expertise in that area, but I feel like it's hard for them to kind of discern what is toxic behavior. But as an adult, as a sentient adult, why do you think the parents still tolerated the behavior?

Yeah, so Eli and I both have backgrounds in education. We were both performing arts teachers before we do what we do now. And I remember the weight of that responsibility. Like this child in this creative setting is coming to me and they are concerned about their confidence or they think that their best friend is more talented and should have gotten the role that they got. Stuff like that and you feel as an educator,

like I am helping a person shape how they view confidence and how they view self-esteem and self-actualization. Like that power dynamic is inherent. With adults, it is so much trickier because girl, you can just leave. And like, I know that is such a non-criticism for cults, because no, they can't, right? And I don't know, I struggle with like,

how culpable are the moms? Because the moms purport that their dream and goal in life is for their child to be successful in the world of dance. If we're operating on the basis that that's the goal, being on reality TV got a lot of them there, right? Like they all are stars. And Jojo Siwa, who's having her moment, she's doing her big one right now,

she started on Dance Moms, you know? like Maddie Ziegler was in West Side Story and like got to work with all these great people. And it's so frustrating because again, they want their children to be successful, which is why they claim to stay. Their children are successful. So it quote unquote works, but at the cost of your child's mental health. Maddie has like openly said in interviews and stuff like, I don't remember most of my childhood. We're learning about like in the larger

conversation of the Quiet Onset documentary that was put out via HBO, that like child stars that have been through significant amounts of trauma will just forget. They just like block it out because of the way that your brain copes with immense amounts of stress. And so yes, your child was successful and yes, your child is like a 14 year old zillionaire, but at what cost? I know to bring it back to the culty comparison,

I'm just like, is Melissa, Maddie's mom, the Alison Mac to Abby Lee Miller's Keith Riniere? You know, it's like, does she deserve her own little prison stint? A little bit. Yep. What's so bizarre to me, and you brought up a really good point, but like the moms, while this was happening, did not have the benefit of hindsight. They didn't know that this was actually going to work. And so you can't say like, yeah, they're famous. And so like, was it all worth it? They didn't know that at all. They didn't know that fame was right down the road.

And so that's why you see so many times, like you'll get moments of realness with the moms. We just saw one with Kelly recently where she's just like sobbing and like breaking down because she's like, why am I doing this? This is horrible. I'm certainly causing lasting damage, which spoiler alert, Kelly, you did.

And all for what? Is there a level of fame that they could potentially ever achieve that would make all this worth it? To Eli's point about them not having the benefit of hindsight, we're actually seeing that play out in real time with the vlogging parents and how kids who grew up vlogging against their will, they didn't consent to be put on display.

They're having all these issues with their self image and always being scrutinized from the internet, from their parents who everything has to be perfectly curated. It's terrifying. Yeah. To live your life on display, that has to be like, you know, I I'm 34. So like, we didn't have the internet in my house until I was 13. I think we're a little behind the April on that one. But my entire childhood was like, I'm probably one of the last ones that was totally untainted by social media and having like your life on display and having spent over a decade in

education, I see so many kids that their their self worth is so dependent on the public approval of others. And they're living their life on a figurative stage. And so like these kids are being on national television, that's crazy. And then you're trying to have this normal childhood interaction with someone that should be a trusted adult. And even if something crazy is happening, you're like, I'm being watched right now. I can't stick up for myself because then I'm the crazy one or whatever.

This actually bridges into the sort of next line of questioning that we wanna pursue, which has to do with the culty fandom and how that fandom is constantly replenishing, like skin cells renewing because of like the whole rewatch culture. What would you say the cultiest thing on the Dance Moms viewership side? Like, are there any rituals or red flags that stick out?

To me, as an individual, you know, Eli alluded to this earlier. I did the podcast for about a year before we linked up permanently. And when I tell you, if I said this episode came out on April 4th and it came out on April 14th, I would get an email about it. We got an email today correcting me for something that I said that was factually inaccurate.

And they're not mean, but they just know so much about something that is so goofy. Like what Abby Lee was, she was wearing the purple headband and not the red one is really inconsequential. And I think- It's beside the point. It doesn't matter.

And I think that like, to your point, like that regeneration, it's like this constant need in the rewatch culture of like i'm gonna follow all these tiktok recap accounts and i'm gonna find the youtube videos this information that is 15 years old it's like it's coming out on tv right now people are that interested in well and and speaking of being 15 years old when they were going to competitions, there were crowds outside of dance competitions of people like holding signs and chanting Abby or Kathy, the rivals name. It was so bizarre then. And it is so bizarre now. What's delightful for me is I'm not in the lore like

that. You're way more in it than I am, but there are people like we get emails almost weekly from a couple of people who are just like, Oh, just FYI, you're about to record this episode. Here's 14 paragraphs of backstory on a couple of interactions. There's Oh my god, it's like this isn't Lord of the Rings. Also, the show's not on anymore. So it doesn't matter. Like it's over. You know what I mean?

Oh my God. Truly like people who are still that obsessed with this cult are those like Nexium survivors who are still dancing outside of Keith Renieri's prison window. I think too with Jojo Siwa really taking off, seeing Jojo Siwa and being like, where did you come from?

And how did you get this famous? And you know, like before this last Pride season, a lot of people were unaware of who she was. And then she did, she started this new music career with this like Karma song. What a simple time five months ago. I know, I miss it every day, truly. Everything I know about Jojo Siwa, I know against my will. I know I miss it every day, truly. Everything I know about JoJo Siwa,

I know against my will. I've never sought it out. I've just absorbed it through osmosis. But people see her and they wonder where she came from. And the trail I think actually begins on toddlers into Yara's and then she gets picked up by dance moms. But like, then you usher in this new wave of like, you want to know what like dark corner of the internet JoJo Siwa crawled out of? Come watch dance moms. But like, then you usher in this new wave of like, you want to know what like dark corner

of the internet Jojo Siwa crawled out of? Come watch Dance Moms. It's worse. So the next thing I want to talk about that we simply cannot skip over is the fact that there is a cult episode of Dance Moms. We have to talk about the fact that in season six of Dance Moms, Abby Lee Miller had the dance team perform a contemporary piece called The Cult. I know it's so absurd. This dance was based on the Jonestown tragedy and was composed of horror story solos that gave some of the mothers pause, as you might imagine. Abby Lee Miller's response to this skepticism was, I think every parent has concerns about their child falling prey to a cult. And sometimes they're even brainwashed to drink

the Kool-Aid, which is an insensitive but common cliche that references the fact that the victims of Jonestown died by ingesting a mixture of grape flavor aid and cyanide against their will. It's a fucked up thing, but we say drink the Kool-Aid. Abby Lee Miller said it. So Holly, who is the only black mother on the OG dance team of dance moms, Holly said, I have heard people reference this experience as a cult. And in an article by the International Business Times, backstage at the competition, the moms bring up the fact that their girls

are somewhat confused by their dances theme. Jojo Siwa's mom goes on to use the ALDC as a reference. Abby is not even in the room and look at us sewing our head pieces and worrying about this because our cult leader looms over us everywhere we go. Mackenzie reveals she disagrees with their definition. The moms are really bad at explaining the cult. I think it's just a bunch of moms fighting, she says. I'm just ready to drink the Kool-Aid and dance.

A producer fed her that line for sure. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I love when our kids dance as a team together, and I think that's what's important. Kendall's mother, Jill Vertes says, maybe the ALDC being a cult isn't a bad thing after all. She would say that. Jesus.

After the competition and following her feuds with the moms in the studio, Brynn's mother, Ashley, presents the team with cups of Kool-Aid, which they accept. Oh my God. Ashley presents the team with cups of Kool-Aid, which they accept. Oh my God. The ALDC is a cult and they need their own Kool-Aid. So I got some.

She says, I think they should drink their Kool-Aid every now and then. So what we just read is directly pulled from this article in the International Business Times, and I know we talked before about like, how they were getting in front of the narrative by setting up this clearly super culty hierarchical pyramid. I mean, all of these are such red flags, but it's like, if we call ourselves a cult, then you can't. I feel like this was that incarnate. Yeah, Abby just consistently when she thinks that she has to like bring the heat, she's got to like we got to do like the dance to end all dances, whatever, she will do something that is like crazy racist, shocking, or like downright

offensive or whatever she will do something like that. And so it's like you said, the Jonestown, it's like, I just, I was like, that's yeah, that's right. It's shocking, but I'm not like surprised by it. That's tracks. That makes sense. I kind of feel like, I don't know. There's some part of me though,

that feels like Abby Lee is in the business of rage baiting. Like I kind of feel like there's a part of her that you know that people are watching, they're tuning in because you're bat shit crazy. So now let's give them a little something else, you know, to tune in for. Yes, there's, when we were talking about specifically Dr. Holly, who is our favorite mom,

she has a doctorate in education. She is capital T, capital G, that girl. Love Dr. Holly. And there's an episode where they're in the mirror room and they're doing the pyramid. It's the very beginning. We're hearing the group number, the solos, all these things.

And at this time, the only dancer of color who's a part of the squad is Nia. And Abby says, this week we're going to do a number that's about Rosa Parks. And she says, I don't know who's going to play Rosa Parks. I'll figure it out later. Yeah, I agree with the face that you're making right now. It's that rage baiting. And then another comment that we were giggling about Jill,

because Jill has never known when to not speak in her life. She just is always saying the most outlandish things. She says, like, I think Kendall would be a really great Rosa Parks. And she goes in and she asks Abby, she goes on this tirade about how great of a Rosa Parks kindle, my little kindle would be. And as a viewer, I have to know what happens. Like I can't turn it off. I need to know.

And eventually Jill kind of like, it takes a step back and she's like, okay, let me sit down and be quiet. And she gives the role of Rosa Parks to Nia and they do Rosa Parks number and they went first place and it's great. But that rage baiting, that commercial poll quote clip of like next week's Rosa Parks, I don't know who it's going to be. And then you get like the very rare occurrence of Dr. Holly rolling her eyes and it's like, yeah, and I'm going to buckle up and I'm going to watch every time.

Oh my God. I mean, I cannot believe that that episode of television is less than 10 years old It actually does go to show like how much the sort of like cultural discourse has shifted Because there's no fucking way that that would be on TV right now I mean, what is there in the space? No, there's no way we're so precious with everything now Like there is no way that would have ever made air Yeah precious with everything now. Like there is no way that would have ever made air. Yeah, no, that is such a good point. The rage bait of it all. And I think Abby Lee Miller as a cult leader figure, I mean, we'll just call it as it is. Like she is the ultimate

narcissist. And attention is her drug of choice. And I think probably what's motivating her is like, if it captures attention, how could it be bad? Like if it's making everybody money, if it's making everyone a star, how could it be bad? Okay, so before we get into a little game, I want to ruminate on what the future of this cult might be. So most of the former Dance Moms cast members have these extremely conflicted thoughts and

feelings about their experience on the show now that they're adults. Like they value that they met their best friends on Dance Moms, that they all became extremely bonded, but of course the pressure and trauma still haunts them. They did say on the reunion that they can still hear Abby's screams and mantras in their heads. But despite all of that, they felt terrible when they heard that Abby was diagnosed with cancer, which is just another plot twist. Well, as cancer often is, and they mentioned that they even thought about reaching out and reconnecting, even though she was so horrible to them and it was heartbreaking for me to watch them work through this cognitive dissonance One dance moms alum however still does unabashedly contend that her time on the show

Wasn't it positive that is of course Jojo Siwa who has said that even though the show had a negative impact on her mental health It was worth it because it made her one of the cool kids It made her the star she was always meant to be. She explained to Yahoo News, quote, there was a lot of tears, a lot of blood, a lot of sweat, but look at where it got me. It is a massive part of my career that I will always and forever be so freaking grateful for. Oh dear God. What is she 20? 21. Yeah. She doesn't fucking know. She doesn't know how like how she's going to feel about this 10 years from now. I was an idiot when I was 21.

You're an idiot now. I'm even more of an idiot now. And so she does not have the benefit of hindsight as we've talked about before. Like, you know, you said like, how's this all gonna end kind of and I wonder like we're not at the end obviously. The group is still rather divided and I wonder if it stays that way, but I can't help but imagine that the opinions of the majority are gonna kind of sway one way or another.

Either like when Abby, hopefully not soon, but when she inevitably passes at some point, if they'll look back and be like, you know what, like we're older, we're solid in like who we are as people and where we are in our lives and everything. I hope she rests in peace and like there were some good memories and we're going to choose to focus on those and blah, blah, blah. I think that there's a good chance that that happens. The alternative, which is, you know what? No, she sucked and we still are going

to therapy into our forties or whatever. And blah, blah, blah, go to hell, Abby, whatever. I think that it is far more likely, because the thing about all this is that the children, now adults, are still good people. And so, of course, they're not gonna be glad that somebody has cancer, even someone who is horrible to them. They're not gonna be glad about that.

And so, regardless of what they might feel on the inside, they're certainly not gonna vocalize that. And they'll still like say the right things, like, you know what, we'll write her a card, make a social media post, and then that's kind of the end of Abby Lee Miller. That's like the last that we'll hear about because the kids aren't gonna bring her up again.

I just feel like that's how it's gonna end up. That's what it looks like online. ["The Last of Us"] We're gonna pivot to the Pent-Ultimate segment of this episode, which is a brief little game. This is a classic Sounds Like a Cult game. It's just simply would you rather. So we're gonna read a sequence of culty would you rather dance moms scenarios and going to very gravely ask you which one you would rather choose. The first round goes like this.

Would you rather have to be berated by Abby Lee Miller every time you recorded a podcast episode, or have to go on a week long mission trip with the Mormon church every year for the rest of your life? Okay, I don't know if I can speak on this because I grew up fundamentalist Christian where we did go on mission trips all the time, oftentimes for weeks on end. And honestly, given what I gained or lost from my religious experience,

I might pick the Abbey thing before I do the fundamentalist thing again. I can handle that no problem. Bring it on, Abbey. And I get to go home after the Abby thing. But if I'm out with the Mormons like that, I'm stuck for a couple weeks. So I might pick the Abby thing. That's my dog too much.

Frudent choice. I think I would pick Abby as well. Me too. So next one, would you rather have Jojo Siwa put you on blast or have to wear a drink the Kool-Aid hat for the next six months straight? That's a really good question. That's a really good one. See, now, so I'm,

the problem I would have with the Jojo Siwa thing is she's putting me on blast, that means like hundreds- Jojo Siwa's messy. She knows your secrets. Exactly. She knows where you live. And that means that hundreds of thousands of her little minions are coming, or her little cult followers are coming after me. I'll wear the hat. I'm not a hat guy. And people would just assume I lost a bet.

I'm taking the hat one. I don't know. I feel like there's a certain freedom that comes in being exposed. Just fried. So it might just be like a big old reset button for me. You know what I mean? For JoJo Siwa to just like air out my dirty laundry and for me to be like, yeah, I did that next. You know, I don't know, six months and a hat might kill

what I've got going on with my curls. And we're on a curly girl journey. We're getting the curl pattern to extend to the root and I'm making progress. So I might pick Jojo Siwa putting me on blast. Oh my God, keeping the curls intact. That's what matters. Okay, last round. Would you rather have Abby Lee Miller as your personal life coach or have to shave your

head completely bald? How often do I have to see her as my personal life coach? Up to interpretation. I feel like we're going weekly. Oh, you're gone. Yeah, you have to. Oh, boy. I'd go bald. I'm already, yeah, I'm already starting to thin out up top. I'll just shave to shave it all.

I would be Q ball, full on Mr. Clean, Anthony Carragut, just like go on. Just wear a white t-shirt. Okay, so based on the last round, I'm learning that you would rather have JoJo Siwa put you on blast than have Abby Lee Miller as your personal life coach. Yeah.

Because that's a one-time thing. And I don't have to be bald either way. That's a good one. That's Dan's mouth. That's real. Okay, the very last question, the very last question we have for you is the ultimate sounds like a cult question. And it goes like this out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back and get the fuck out. Which cult category do you think the cult

of dance moms falls into? Like for the people involved, get the fuck out. For the moms and the kids, get the fuck out for sure. Yeah, I think so, especially at the center of this are young impressionable children. When McKenzie starts dance moms, she has, she's missing teeth. And she says in the second episode, I don't want to dance. I want to watch Justin Bieber and eat chips, which same every day of my life. I want to be doing both of those things,

but that's how little she is. And she grew up in this. She grew up in this cult. And so I think for the kids and the moms, you need to get the fuck up out of there now. For the fans, it's proceed with caution. Live your life, proceed with caution. I think it's live your best life.

Just watch the show, but be aware of what it is. What do you think? Definitely get the fuck out. For everyone? For... I think watch your back for fandom. I don't know, because it can become a slippery slope, right? You can get a little too deep in it, in my opinion.

I think so too. Just because of like the children of it all, you know? Not to sound like a QAnon anti-vax mom, but like save those children. Yes. You know? Yeah. Watch your back if you're listening.

And if JoJo Siwa is listening, cause something tells me she has a Google alert, just like take care of you JoJo. Drink some water girl. You've been outside a lot. Well, that's our show. Thanks so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week.

But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. In the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Sounds Like a Cult is hosted and produced by Amanda Montell and edited by Jordan Moore of the PodCabin. Our theme music is by Casey Cold. This episode was co-hosted and co-produced by Chelsea Charles. Thank you as well to Reese Oliver and Katie Epperson

and to our partner, All Things Comedy. And if you like the show, please feel free to check out my books, Word Slut, A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality.

If you're a fan of Sounds Like a Cult, I'd really appreciate it if you would leave a rating and review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.