Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Flat Earthers

Episode Date: June 15, 2021

We always thought of “flat earthers” as nothing but a bunch of spoofable Devil advocates with too much time on their hands... but after closer examination, this community of conspiratorial believers sounds a whole lot more like a cult. In this episode, we engage in an enlightening, guffaw-worthy interview with Abbie Richards (@tofology), a Tik Tok sensation known for her knowledge of conspiracy theories and misinformation, to try and determine how destructive the flat earth community *really* is.

I mean, think about it. Like, think about it. Like, okay, I, guys, you don't even know. You don't even know. I think I am a, what do they call it? Um, I think they call it a flat earther. Anyway. Everybody's saying the earther's not flat. How do you know? Because did you know? And I'm not even gonna say it because I'm probably gonna be shut down on Instagram or something. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Issa Medina, a comedian and documentarian. And I'm Amanda Montell, an author and linguist. Every week here on the pod, Issa and I take a deep dive into one zealous group from the cultural zeitgeist, from Peloton diehards to celebrity stands, to try and answer the big question.

This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And just before we start this week's episode, Amanda here, I just wanted to make a little announcement that today, June 15th, is the day that my book, Cultish the Language of Fanaticism, comes out. If you like the podcast, you will like the book. Go on to the episode. This week, we are going to be talking about drumroll please. Flat Earther's. Flat Earther's, man. When you suggested that we do this topic, I was just like, ugh, those dudes. She did not want to talk about it. I just thought they were dumb. I was like, what is there to say about these bros? Yeah, especially in Los Angeles, everyone has one roommate that like doesn't believe that the earth is round. I just wasn't buying that they truly didn't believe it, you know? I was just like, this is some devil's advocate bullshit

that white dudes who don't have anything better to talk about say, you know? Yeah, especially when you meet a singular flat earther, you're like, you're just an idiot. But then, when you start looking into the fact that it's an entire community, it's a bit scary. Most people I know have vaguely heard of these fringe conspiracy theorists who don't accept the science proving that the earth is round, who think it's all a lie, but I didn't realize that Flat Earther's is actually this whole lifestyle. I came across this documentary on Netflix called Behind the Curve. It came out in 2018 and it's about the Flat Earth community and it details their leader, Mark Sargent, and how he has led the Flat Earth community to become more of a united front in a way.

He has a YouTube channel and a podcast and everyone idolizes him. He started to make merch. I mean, right off the bat for me, the thing that struck me as culty was the fact that no matter how hard they tried to prove that the earth was flat, they did multiple experiments and time and time again, their experiments just proved that the earth was round. And at the end of the day, they just kept saying, well, this wasn't the right experiment. When you first forced me to watch this documentary, my eyes were just rolling right out of my head because I thought it was a joke at first, you know? But starting to watch this documentary, I realized how flawed that thinking was and how naive that was. And that was after two years of me researching cults and conspiracy theories for my book, Cultish, many of which are founded on ideologies that are so outlandish, so silly, so ill-informed,

that your instinct is to just say, how much harm can these people really do? It's just easier to ignore them. But then I realized just how much these people really had in common with the members of some of the most destructive cults in all of history that I looked into, for example, Mark Sargent, this protagonist that you were talking about, he admitted himself that he was this seeker who was looking for something alternative to believe in. And he talked about how he flipped through all these different books of conspiracy theories and finally landed on flat earth and decided for whatever reason that that's the one that really spoke to him. He even said, I didn't choose flat earth, flat earth chose me. And I was amazed by the sheer intensity of their us them ideology.

Like, the guy wouldn't even breathe Neil deGrasse Tyson's name, the astrophysicist, just as, you know, anti-vaxxers refuse to say the word vaccine. They'll say jab or use an alternative spelling. And I realized that it's not even about the belief for them. It's really more about this online community of video content makers and live streamers. Yeah. And when you start looking into their personal lives, you start seeing that, you know, a lot of these people are middle aged, not married, no partners. Mark Sargent literally lives at home with his mom and he's in his fifties.

But it isn't only that he's a seeker. He fell into this charismatic leader role and he loves the attention. Yeah, for sure. But he didn't seek out to be this charismatic leader. You know, he wasn't this brilliant mastermind. A lot of the time we give cult leaders way too much credit and call them these brilliant evil geniuses. But really, there are these buffoon opportunists, you know,

just like Billy McFarland, the guy who started Firefest. Our standards for white men's charisma are so low that the second a white guy says anything with confidence, we're like, follow him. Literally. And like biggest example today, Donald Trump. Exactly. And the thing that this flat earth ideology gives people is really compelling. Like it's not just the belief, it's a sense of purpose, meaning, ritual, community. And these are the four qualities that this theologian that I quote all the time,

Tara Isabella Burton says are the four qualities of a religion. You know, a religion doesn't necessarily have to involve God. And I thought it was remarkable that one woman said when flat earthers get together, it's like a family. And I think, you know, the business aspect is also something that keeps people attached because flat earth has become really profitable for these people. There are all these like flat earth products, license plates, coffee tables, clocks, merch. There are flat earth dating sites.

Like this is a robust community. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I feel like all of a sudden when you start adding all of these different elements to the community, it becomes their entire life. It's just another thing to keep them attached. And if they were to start believing the factual truth, they would lose significant others, businesses, money with Mark Sargent specifically. He had a relationship as the documentary shows with Patricia Steer.

The like the like haughty of the flat earth community. She wasn't is the haughty of the flat earth community. Sorry. I don't know if I say is it means like I'm attracted. I'm not. Do you secretly have a crush on Patricia, the flat earth? No, because her last name ends with CIA, which everyone knows means she's in the CIA. Yeah, that was something we were talking about earlier in the documentary.

As soon as Patricia started gaining popularity in the flat earth community, gaining authority and power, people started coming up with these offshoot conspiracy theories that because her name ended in the letter CIA, that she was secretly a member of the CIA. Once you start thinking conspiratorially, there is just no limit to how outlandish your beliefs can get. Yeah, and when you see the interviews with Patricia Steer, she's like, how could people say I'm in the CIA simply because my name ends with CIA? It's so blatantly untrue. And then she is like, it makes me wonder am I following something that is blatantly untrue.

And then she's like, no, I'm not because the earth is flat. Yeah, she's just like, I just know I'm right. And that's what's really dangerous. We can write off these people as these fringy believers who don't really have much in common with the rest of us. But I learned researching my book that there are a few psychological quirks that are inherent to human beings that really drive conspiracy theory belief. For example, we have this craving for uniqueness as well as comfort and control during crisis-ridden times in the culture of like now. We like to think that everything happens for a reason and we like simple answers.

I mean, think of an answer more simple than the earth is flat because it looks flat. Scientists think they have it all figured out, but they're actually brainwashed. We're the ones who know what's true. Trust us and not them. Yeah, but what confused me is that they came up with scientific experiments to prove that the earth was flat. And they literally proved it wrong. And that's not simple-minded to me. Like they went out of their way to like-

No, that's not simple-mindedness. That's classic confirmation bias, you know? That is our innate propensity to seek and pay attention to and remember exclusively information that confirms what we already believe and refute, ignore, dismiss information that contributes it, which is something that none of us can really resist, you know? Yeah. I think the difference between someone who is just skeptical and somebody who is dangerously irrational is that someone who is skeptical is willing to believe they're wrong. But no matter how many tests these people conducted, their confirmation bias was so raging,

evidence meant nothing, and that kind of makes this flat earthing more of a faith, more of a religion than anything else. Yeah, I wonder if like flat eartherism is a religion. Like do they have holidays? Oh yeah, like Earth Day, but Flat Earth Day. Where everyone just eats like flat food all day? Oh yeah, like pizza and pancakes. And everyone wears little flat earth hats. Yeah, they should really hire us to do their marketing.

In the documentary, Patricia was asked during the documentary like, what sources do you trust? Like what data would you trust? And she goes, hmm, what sources do I trust? Myself. And that's similar to Donald Trump too, you know? That's such an American mindset. It really is. Like it's just like I'm the smartest person in the world, I'm the greatest country in the world, and I only believe myself.

I know, it is this like toxic individualism and pride and ego for no good reason. I think, you know, we can't talk about flat earth without talking about the fact that when it becomes acceptable to mistrust science so egregiously, especially during the age of the internet with rabbit holes, you will inevitably be sucked into some offshoot of QAnon, you know, which is like this black hole sucking in every breed of conspiracy theory out there these days. Mark Sargent, the protagonist of the documentary, even used the phrase paradigm shift in the exact way that QAnoners do. There were other people in the flat earth doc that were talking about other conspiracy theories like mistrusting vaccines and public schooling. These beliefs are rooted in antisemitism fundamentally, you know? And as much as like people say paranoia is something that you were born with, I think it's also something that you can feed into.

And when you start feeding into one conspiracy theory, it is like food for your paranoia. And it only grows that paranoia further and all of a sudden you start mistrusting everything. And first and foremost, dangerous, but second of all, who wants to live in that kind of world? That's a stressful world. You're living off of fear. And when you're living off of fear, you're susceptible to people taking advantage of you 100%. And it's funny because they would tell us that we're living in fear. We're the ones who are living in fear. Ironic coming from a bunch of buffoons.

I know. It's also just like, what's so scary about the earth being round? I know who gives a fuck. Honestly, I'll walk right the fuck off the end of the earth. That's dark. Sorry, things have gotten real dark. I'm fine. I meditated this morning. Is that too dark? Well, I think like, wasn't there belief that there are different denominations of the flat earth religion? Some people think there's a dome, which that would prevent you from being able to jump off the end of the earth. That actually would be fun to bungee jump off the end of the earth.

Part of me wants to get high and talk to one of these idiots about it all, but the other part of me is like, I feel like I'll end up getting in the community. That always happens to me. It depends on what drug you're on, you know? Yeah. It's funny because every time you come up with an excuse that's like, so why hasn't anyone fallen off earth? They're like, well, because it's a dome. And then I'm like, well, if it's a dome, what happens when you get to the end? You just bounce back? They always, I mean, this is what conspiracy theorists do. They come up with convenient explanations for things that are really complicated or just made up and make no sense.

Conspiracy theorists are truly just creative writers that just didn't take the right class. Dude, it's funny you say that because so many of history's kookiest new age cult leaders are literally just like sci-fi buffs who took their fandom way too far. That's what Elron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology was. He could have just been like JRR Tolkien. He was a writer of space fantasy fiction. He just took it way too far into exploitative cult religious territory. He could have just been a sci-fi writer. God damn it. But he wanted that tax deduction from the religious community.

Yeah. Money should be limited. Sorry, that's another comment. Mommy, no, no, I'm not. I'm an immigrant. I'm a believer in capitalism. That's totally fair. In a minute, we're going to be chatting with a special guest, Abbey Richards, who is a TikTok sensation and a climate science student who talks a whole lot about conspiracy theories and misinformation. We're going to have a quick convo with Abbey. We're going to play a couple of games. It's going to be a blast. So, Abbey, you were explaining to us earlier that you've sort of found yourself in a position of being a disinformation influencer.

Yes, our very favorite type of internet human. Thank you. Thank you. So you went viral at the end of 2020 for this amazing graphic that you made ranking the danger of a whole bunch of conspiracy theories on a pyramid. We were just wondering if you could talk a bit more about how you assembled that glorious graphic and what went into the ranking system. Yeah, definitely. I really did it for myself to make sense of the world. I had been talking to somebody on Tinder about conspiracy theories, and I knew a bit like going into it, obviously about anti-semitism and where all these conspiracies came from. And it just made sense to me that these always ended in anti-semitism, but I realized that didn't necessarily like make sense to everybody else. So I really drew it in the way that made sense to me. You know, you start from like reality, like what actual conspiracies look like, and then you kind of work your way up to these grandiose conspiracy theories.

Oh yeah, because there are actual true conspiracy theories out there that have been proven. Like I saw on TikTok that during prohibition, the government would put poison in alcohol to get people not to drink and lie about it. Damn. That is true, right? I do not know, but it's definitely true that not all conspiracy theories are created equal. Like, you know, who doesn't enjoy indulging ironically in the one-off celebrity conspiracy theory? Like, you know, that Katy Perry is really Jean Benet Ramsey all grown up. I'll jokingly like run with that.

And I think some people sort of erroneously think that conspiracy theories are kind of harmless, but you very astutely note that they have these deep roots in anti-semitism. You wouldn't think like, oh, people who think that the earth is flat blame Jews for all their suffering, but that's what conspiracy theories are, right? Like, they're the theory that there is like some cabal of dark forces controlling everything and ruining your life. Yeah, conspiracy theories work on a sliding scale. Not every single conspiracy theory is anti-semitic, but like all of them kind of act as gateways towards this final conclusion. If you keep following that track of everything is a lie, everything you've been told is a lie. There's a mysterious group that is controlling the world. It's always anti-semitic.

And that's just because of the history of conspiracy theories. They all kind of end up there. Totally. And especially, you know, like, where do these groups assemble? It's online and the algorithm likes to push you into a more extreme version of where you began. They do like to do that, don't they? It's interesting because you kind of have to sign up for conspiracy ideology, which is bigger than leaving in a single conspiracy theory. And once you believe in one conspiracy theory, the evidence shows that you're more likely to believe in others.

And you can believe that like two contradicting things are true at once. So really, they are signing up for an ideology of history is a lie. Science is a lie. Everything you've been told is a lie. And that's being manipulated by somebody. And those are always kind of end up in scapegoating narratives that we see time and time again. With flat earth, like there were so many great jokes about it. And like, yes, it's kind of outrageous and it's very fun to mock. But at the same time, what they end up doing is like, it's not just the earth is flat and that's the end of that belief.

It goes the earth is flat. You have been lied to. There's a group that is controlling the narrative, right? And like those are globalists, which is a dog whistle for Jews. And here we are. And then a lot of their top leaders are like Holocaust deniers. Big yikes. I mean, must be nice to not have to make anything make sense anymore. I really wish I could, dude. I wish I could. It sounds so relaxing of just like, I can hold all the beliefs in my mind at once because anything could be true. Although cognitive dissonance like will cause your hair to go prematurely white. I feel.

I mean, in general, these ideologies, like it would be nice to be able to just like believe a bunch of things at once. But at the same time, there's super anxiety provoking, like you just live in a constant state of thinking that like an evil cabal controls the world. And it's like not a great mental state to stay in. No, that's what I was saying earlier. It just sounds scary. Very high anxiety. Can you just like generally comment on what you think the overlap between conspiracy theories and cults is? Extremist groups as a whole tend to have conspiratorial beliefs because it's a really good way of solidifying in group versus out group. If like you are within this group and you want to keep that group afraid of outsiders, conspiracy theories are a really effective way of doing that to solidify those sorts of beliefs of like they're out to get us.

It turns you against other people. So I think that they're kind of like necessary in solidifying those belief systems. Totally. I mean, when I think of some of the most notorious, dangerous, destructive cults with survivors who I've interviewed, every single one of the leaders from Jim Jones to L. Ron Hubbard always scapegoated someone typically the media. Classic. Stereotype. The media is run by Jews. I mean, it really all does go to the same place. If you want to keep people afraid, telling them that there is an all powerful group that's out to get them is a really good way to keep manipulating them. And it's believable too. Like when the world is so complicated and there's so much turbulence, it's such a simple answer like, oh, there's actually a group purposefully controlling everything and making everything bad. Oh, yeah. And then plus, like, I mean, confirmation bias will just go crazy on it. You see that with like these claims of censorship all over social media of people who are like, you know, spreading anti-vax misinformation and claim that they are being censored. And they see it, they genuinely do see it as censorship because they've already bought into a narrative of like, there is this very powerful government that is trying to suppress your beliefs completely.

And like the fact that I just think it's funny that they think everything is about them, like who's going to go out of the way to suppress your beliefs. Okay, a couple more questions. You are very funny. Well, also, I mean, I think it's a tough balance to strike and you do it so well that of being funny while also talking about controversial things in a smart way. And I'm sure that you find yourself having to deal with all kinds of trolls and just like triggered internet turkeys from all across the political spectrum. Are there any common idiotic comments that you tend to get quite frequently or even just one that sticks out to you? And what has been your favorite rebuttal to those types of comments like a rebuttal that makes you feel nice and smug? I mean, first of all, thank you for calling me funny. I live for that. We love to compliment here. It sounds like a cult. Yeah, it builds me up. I think my favorite is the people who convinced themselves that I am like a government shill or like I'm like a George Soros shill because it's just like, I wish like I wish someone were paying me like I've been doing this for like free.

Like, why have I not gotten my check from Soros or Gates or whoever is supposedly funding my social media. Bill Gates, sponsor her. Sponsor me, Bill. Give me a microchip. I need one. Yeah, no, I think that that's my favorite because it's just personally going after me in a way that I'm just like, it's just not true. I'm just not sponsored. I'm just a lowly disinformation influencer. I'm just a silly little TikTok girl. Okay, well, speaking of smugness. I'm sure you're very familiar with the concept of the Dunning-Kruger effect, which is that good old cognitive bias where the less people know about something, the more they think they know about that thing.

So in your opinion, who are some of the most egregiously ill-informed, grotesquely confident Dunning-Kruger effect up the wazoo public figures out there? They can be pundits, celebrities, thought leaders, whoever, who are currently wreaking havoc in the culture. And why do you think that these people are the worst? There's just so many to choose from. How do I pick a favorite when they all give me constant content to work with? There's like the disinformation dozen, who are the 12 people who spread the most disinformation specifically about like COVID and vaccines. Who are the disinformation dozen? I can pull them up if you want me to. They literally call themselves that?

No, they got named that by Counter Hate. They're a really great organization, a center for countering digital hate, but they do a lot of really incredible work in combating disinformation and online hate. And one of the things that they have found is like the disinformation dozen, which is, let's see. Yeah, name some names. Who are these little fuckers? Okay, just 12 anti-vaxxers are responsible for almost two thirds of anti-vaccine content circulating on social media platforms. This new analysis of content posted or shared to social media over 812,000 times between February and March uncovers how a tiny group of determined anti-vaxxers is responsible for a tidal wave of disinformation and shows how platforms can fix it by enforcing their standards. Let's find the 12. I wonder if I'm aware of any of these people I might be.

Okay, I have the, I have the list of 12. Goodie. I'm probably not going to like pronounce every name right. I'm definitely familiar with Kelly Brogan y'all stay vigilant. Wait, there's someone who named themselves Robert Kennedy Jr. No, Robert Kennedy Jr. is like he's an American anti-vaxx advocate conspiracy theorist. He's the son of Robert F Kennedy and the nephew of former US president JFK. Wait, shut the fuck up.

Like a literal Kennedy is an anti-vaxxer. Yeah, like in one of the worst. What? Shut up. Yeah. That's insane. I'm like absolutely shook out of my mind. I thought someone was like trolling and named them after the Kennedys.

No, it's like a literal Kennedy. Like people are very much obsessed with him because of that. Like he uses the fact that he is a Kennedy to push that agenda. Oh, I hate that. I'm going to have to go down a rabbit hole later. Oh, I'm so sorry for you. Let's like, let's lighten the mood and play a game. The game is called which celebrity thinks the world is flat.

Ooh, we're going to do three rounds. Okay. Oh my God. Okay. I'm actually, I'm very excited for this. This is a fun game. The theme of the first round is washed up celebrities. Which celebrity thinks the world is flat?

A. Holly Madison of the Girls Next Door fame. Former Playboy. Former main girlfriend of Hugh Hefner. Oh, okay, okay. You might be too young and didn't watch the Girls Next Door on E. I'm 24. Yeah, it might have been a little before your time. I mean, it's a little before my time.

I was too young to watch the Girls Next Door. But anyway, Holly Madison is a YouTuber now. Of course she is. Yeah. She's a beauty guru now. Is it A. Holly Madison, former Playmate turns beauty guru. Is it B. Tila Tequila or is it C. Corey Feldman, the washed up 80s heartthrob.

Ooh, you know, I mean, I believe it for all three of them. Tila Tequila has a bad history of antisemitism. So I'm like leaning towards that. She has just consistently been so problematic that I can a hundred percent see her saying that. I mean, maybe it's you've put in a red herring for me there because you're going to know that I know that, but I'm still now I'm going with it.

Final answer is Tila Tequila. That is absolutely correct. I am not diligent enough to throw in a red herring or am I? Maybe. Okay. So the theme of round three is people who peaked in 2010. A. Mike Posner. B. The rapper B. O. B.

Or C. David Guetta. It is B. B. O. B. Homie is a flattered there. You are quite correct. I'm impressed with your knowledge. Unsurprised, but impressed. Yeah. He wrote a song about airplanes and still doesn't understand how

they stay up in the sky. It is truly impressive. Yeah. I mean, don't his lyrics literally say, can we pretend that airplanes in the night sky are like shooting stars? I feel like he's just doing a lot of pretending. Flat earthers are the ones who like believe that specific flights don't exist.

They're like, no one's ever taken that flight. And you're like, I did last week, but it's fine. Yeah. We'll just pretend. The theme of the last round of which celebrity thinks the earth is flat is obnoxious TV stars. Okay. Fun.

Is it A. Roseanne Barr. B. Courtney Kardashian. Or C. Millie Bobby Brown from Stranger Things. Oof. I mean, I could see Roseanne doing that.

That's believable. I'm the least confident in this answer, but I'm going to go Roseanne. It was Millie Bobby Brown. Oh my God. Millie Bobby Brown announced her status as a flat earther during a social media live stream. That was alarming. Yeah.

Not the Gen Z role model the world needs. I think I am a flat. I think they call it a flat earther. Well, Abby, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and for playing this game with us. Where can our listeners keep up with you and your content? I am on TikTok at Topology. I'm on Instagram at Abby SR.

I've been doing some infographics, some memes recently. Yeah. Get all your stuff from our girl, Abby Richards. Yeah. So out of the three cult categories, live your life. Watch your back. Or get the fuck out. Which category do you think flat earthers fall into?

Okay. Well, actually, before you keep going, I think we're both on the same page here and I want to test a little theory of my own. Oh, do you? I think we should say it at the same time. Okay. Like on the count of three? Like on the count of three, what level of cultiness do you think flat earth

community falls? Okay, I'm down. Okay. Ready? One, two, three. Get the fuck out. Yeah. Yass.

I think it's pretty cut and dry. I mean, these people seem like harmless turkeys on the outside, but are actually incredibly insidious and essentially just represent everything wrong with our culture right now. It's the perfect example of what can go wrong when you get a small group of people together that can recruit more people based on a fictional ideology. It is literally a recipe for disaster. 100%. This is the perfect example of like the cult that we need to discuss in this podcast.

Yeah. Because in five years, if you're listening to this podcast and you're part of the flat earth community, you can bet your bottom buckle of that. You can bet your bottom buckle. Not my bottom buckle. You can bet your bottom buckle. I see a documentary about it in eight more years about how much worse it's gone. That is so true.

It's like five years before the nexium documentary came out, people were trying to publish pieces on the danger of nexium and everybody was like, these jokers. Yeah, exactly. And that's what the flat earth community is right now. Well, that's our show. Thanks for listening. We'll be back with a new cult next week. And in the meantime, stay culty, but not too culty.

Sounds like a cult was created, produced and edited by Amanda Montell and Issa Medina. Our theme music is by Casey Colt and our production assistant slash intern is Courtney Archer. And if you like this episode, feel free to give us a rating and review on Apple podcasts. Thank you.