Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of High Fashion

Episode Date: December 12, 2023

Florals for spring may not be groundbreaking, but you know what is? Today’s brain-tingling interview with possibly the single best speaking voice in podcasting, Avery Trufelman, friend of the pod and host of the critically acclaimed fashion series Articles of Interest. Avery joins our season finale episode for a discush about the “cult” of the haute couture industry, from its elitism and exclusivity to its bonkers sense of conspiracy that (spoiler!!) affects us all, whether we realize it or not. Let’s just say if you’ve ever felt stressed about what pants are cool anymore, you are definitely in this cult!!! Stick to the end for our culty verdict and to hear a brief announcement about next season. Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod @amanda_montell @isaamedinaa  To stay up to date on Isa’s future projects, click here. To preorder Amanda's new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking: Notes on Modern Irrationality, a lead Simon & Schuster title for 2024, click here :) For news about her forthcoming Magical Overthinkers podcast, consider subscribing to her newsletter! Thank you to our sponsors: SKIMS Holiday Gift Shop is now open at SKIMS.com. Get free shipping on orders over seventy five dollars. Go to betterhelp.com/cult to get 10% off your first month.

Believe the hype, Skims has over 100,000 five star reviews for a reason. Skims' holiday gift shop is now open at Skims.com. Plus get free shipping on orders over $75. After you place your order, be sure to let the know we sent you. Select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the drop down mini that follows. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. In the season of giving, give yourself what you need. With BetterHelp, visit BetterHelp.com slash cult today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp,

h-e-l-p.com slash cult. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like A Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable facts. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Today's episode from The Sounds Like A Cult Vault was originally recorded earlier this year. The thing that I say about fashion is yeah, I used to

think it was like, oh, the runways or the advertisements or what gets delivered to on Instagram, but really like fashion is a feeling inside your head when you look at your closet and you're like, I cannot wear any of this. I have nothing to wear. Like, that's fashion. That's when it's working on you. And so it's like a bug in your brain. And it's fascinating because people continue to think that it doesn't affect them. And that like, obviously, obviously, obviously does. This is Sounds Like a Cult.

A show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Issa Medina and I'm a comedian currently in New York City. I'm Amanda Montel, author of the books, Cultish the Language of Finaticism and the Fourth Coming, the Age of Magical Overthinking. Every week on the show, we discuss a different fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist, from flat-earthers to people who are just really obsessed with

trader-dose to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ And if so, which cult category does it fall into? Live your life, watch your back, or get the book out. After all, the word cult is up to interpretation these days. And today, we are going to be discussing the ever-so-styl, elusive, elitist cult of high-fashion Oat Kutur, which may sound a little niche, but honey, it is not. It is surprise, surprise,

a cult that affects us all. We are going to get straight into the interview today because We are gonna get straight into the interview today because you can't see us, but if you could, you would be certain that we are not experts in the cult of high fashion. Yeah, we're gonna learn all about it from a very special expert guest. Her name is Avery Truffleman. Avery is a podcaster, a friend of sounds like a cult. You might recognize her work from the podcast 99% invisible,

and she now hosts the critically acclaimed fashion podcast articles of interest. Avery's gonna tell us all that we need to know about the cult of high fashion and how it affects our culture at large. [♪, hello, Avery. Ah, great. So can you just start by introducing yourself and your work to our listeners? Sure.

My name is Avery Treffleman. I have a podcast about fashion called Articles of Interest. But I don't know, it's funny. When I started, I was like, it's not about fashion, it's about clothing. And then I'm sure we'll talk about this. It's like, wait, no, clothing is fashion. Like, it's not, it's not like a separate thing. But it's like a fashion podcast for people

who think they don't care about fashion. Yeah, the semantics are interesting. There's clothing, there's fashion, there's style. Yeah. Styling, I've learned, is a big thing from the Kardashians, where they're little purse. And they're like, I styled this.

I know, I know. It's so funny. And then to think about the weird world of hidden stylists and the things you see on the red carpet, they weren't bought by the person. It's so weird. The layers of Artifists are bananas. And now that I think about it,

there's so much pretentious fashion terminology. Like, when you pick out an outfit, if you're suddenly in the high fashion world, it's called pulling. Yeah. I'm gonna pull that. I also think, like, I don't know, living in LA has made me feel like,

I do appreciate stylists a bit because, like, I leave the house, like looking like a mess, you know? Right. And then there are people who like pull these tiny little artifacts and put them all together and they look so effortless, but you know they worked so hard to put that look together.

And it's like, I appreciate that. It's an art. It is. So thinking about the high fashion industry in the context of a cult, how would you describe its power structure? So who are the major players and how do they wield their influence?

Okay. When I was thinking about this, I was like, is high fashion a cult? And then I was like, no more so than capitalism itself is a cult. And then I was literally reading a book where they called it the cult of high fashion. It's like, oh, yeah. Okay. It's a cult. It is a cult. And the leader of the cult would definitely be modern high fashion. We can talk about how this is changed, but the leaders Bernard are no. Can you explain who that is? Okay, so he is the head honcho of LVMH, which is Louis Vuitton Moihannissey. And basically, he is sort of the guy who led the charge from turning luxury fashion houses from, you know, the way brands want you to think of them.

It's like this artisan lovingly stitching some leather and a family run atelier to what they actually are, which is mega behemoths in every airport and because all of these companies are now under one corporate structure, they share a lot of the infrastructure. They share a lot of the factories. They definitely share a lot of the marketing and branding arm. I mean, basically ever since the 80s, really, it's become this big sort of Transformers world where all of these companies got bought up by these bigger holding companies and they're all sort of like gearing up and fighting each other for luxury supremacy.

And it's all trading on this like old idea of what we think fashion is that they've sold to us. But like honestly, you know, they're telling perfumes and keychains. And now sweatpants. And now sweatpants. Well, the other thing is like, there are multiple different levels we could talk about, right? Like, are we talking about like luxury goods? Are we actually talking about avant-garde runway shows? There are lots of different levels of what is considered fashion

and like what parts you're paying attention to. You know, like are you looking at designers as artists who actually are trying to say something innovative and new because like people are still trying, like, and still exist. But I think the way most people conceive of fashion that we see advertised in giant posters is like a giant corporate structure and a cult.

And I love how you were describing it as a result of capitalism because when you look at, I don't even know how to say it. Hot cator, hot girl, like, itot cator. It's like, it's supposed to be that it's these like one of one garments. Like, they're supposed to be like unique for the individual for one client.

Wow. And that's how it started. That is how it started, right? Really quick too, just to define oot cator for those who don't know, I didn't know. It is generally classically defined as this like elite handful of brands who produce what ESA was saying,

these like handmade to order garments that cost bajillions of dollars, not really, but between like 10,000 and $100,000 a piece. And the way I understand it is that you have to qualify to be counted as a couture house. It's like an official designation, the way that champagne is. Yeah.

Is it couture or is it just a sparkling corset? And there are only like a very, very few brands who officially qualify as couture, including Chanel Dior Valentino. Sorry, I just wanted to like establish that. And I read that this is an old stat, but in 2016, there were only about 4,000 Oatkator clients worldwide.

Like hardly anyone is rich enough to be able to purchase Oatkator, but Avery, you were kind of hinting at the idea that that is not how these fashion houses actually make the bulk of their money. They make their money in like a more underhanded kind of culty way. Yeah. There was this huge period where what fashion was was knockoffs, like the way that Dior made money when it was a smaller business,

a smaller atelier, like a huge part of their income came from selling their designs to American department stores to knock off with their label. And so there's always been this like desire for the new looks from France and the companies have always panned her to that. And so the like mass market impulse has been around for a long time. And now they're like, oh, knockoffs are a blight, you know? Like they're ruining our business. Like we should have pity on them. And it used to be actually like way more widespread.

Like more people used to engage in Oatkator, then now, because I think your wardrobes didn't have to be as expansive. I was just reading Deluxe by Dana Thomas, which is incredible. And she was saying that I believe, and I could be getting this wrong, but it used to be that like 200,000 women would go to France to get their dresses made for them. And now it's like, you know, negligible.

Yeah, I don't know this for a fact, but I do think it's like from Bridgerton, like they had one dress in the spring. And that was the vibe. Exactly. And you like build your wardrobe slowly. And you like, yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. And I mean, it's great that now you don't have to fly

to France together. Yeah. Nice looking garment. And we will talk a little bit about how the Cult of High Fashion and the Cult of Fast Fashion can be in the trash shortly. But I think what you've been describing as a sort of key ingredient in the recipe of this cult,

so to speak, is the illusion of glamour, selling someone a feeling of exclusivity through clothing as a gateway to a feeling of superiority in general in life. Just even the idea of the handbag, which has a preposterous markup, as opposed to Louis Vuitton's started as a trunk maker, or a gown, a handbag is frickin' nothing,

especially if you're making it out of vinyl or denim or some of these materials that are not that hard to source. It's so interesting to think about the handbag because it really is this talisman of the religion of high fashion, right? Like, I have one, like, high fashion items that I bought for a very cult-like reason which was to seem elevated, to seem like I was a part

of this community. It's like a frickin' YSL bag, the size of a fucking greeting card that I spent $100 on. But I wanted to be a part of that community to signal like I made something of my life. And the handbag is so small. But listen, that's so real. That is so, so, so real.

And that's everything. I also, the one bag I have, I was like, well, people notice this. And if I'm going to cover fashion, I have to have a good bag. It does mean something. Like fashion is built on communal meaning. And then when you look back at the original cult, the way fashion began, high fashion began, began in Versailles.

I mean, that was extremely culty. And it was all these same reasons. It began as basically an economic stimulus to help French silk makers. Louis XIV was like, I'm going to change the colors that you wear season to season in court. And if you were going to sit in my court, you have to wear these colors. And so everyone was like buying all this silk from Leon. And then it became this little of power to dictate what everyone has to wear. So they were so busy like following trends. I mean, the sort of apocryphal story is that I was to make sure that no one you served the crown that they were so busy like focusing on what to wear.

But it was I think it's so culty. It is very culty. But I do think it was mostly an economic stimulus and that's always been built into Frances model like making fashion this really lucrative industry by building up the mystique and the necessity of it. So it's fucking france, fucking france. So it's been culty forever, but also it's not fake. Like if you're sitting in the court of the king, you're in proximity to actual power. And people are actually judging you for the way you look. And so yeah, totally, like there are moments where people are looking at your bag. So yes it is. Oh my God, this reminds me of an anecdote

that I want to tell really quickly because I can't think of another context in which I would ever tell this anecdote on this show, but I had a hilarious brush with the cult of high fashion once when I was in college. I was interning in the beauty industry at the time at this beauty website. And I was in college. I was interning in the beauty industry at the time at this beauty website. And I was assigned to do backstage coverage

at New York Fashion Week, like interviewing makeup artists about the look that they were creating for the MU MU show or whatever. Which was very exciting for me. It felt very glam. And I was trying to think of what to wear because my understanding was that if you show up to Fashion Week, you have to turn a look.

Like I've just been seeing the if you show up to Fashion Week, you have to turn a look like I just been seeing the people who show up to Fashion Week to be photographed for like street style stories, you know those. So I was like, oh my god, I have to dress to the nines just to go backstage. Yeah. I showed up wearing a head-to-toe, thrifted, bright, blue outfit, a gigantic royal blue felt hat,

and a dress covered in birds. Ah! I get backstage, everybody back there is like, running around wearing designer, all black hair, and a low tight, chienille. I look a fucking mess, I'm like a bag lady, couldn't have looked more out of place. At one point, I guess I must have been really standing

in the way because this is very severe. She's looking woman in these little loafers. Teeters by me, bumps into one of my tote bags, whips around, and like a scene from the double wears Prada. She looks me up and down and goes, move it, blue. Wow. I guess I was wearing all blue. I was just like, oh my God,

I am such an outsider stumbling into this cult that is entirely too fancy for me. That's so funny. You know, something I think about all the time is like the way that what we wear has sort of bifurcated there's like real life and then there's picture life. Like social media life and like whatever. We don't have to talk about whether or not social media

is like dying or whatever, but I do think that there are these ways that people are like, oh, this is me presenting myself, dressing up to photograph or to like be somewhere, and then there's like, oh no, these aren't real. This isn't real me. I'm just running to get some groceries. Like this is not actually dressing.

I was just looking at the window and looking at people walking by wearing shorts and jeans and t-shirts. And like, do we call this fashion? Like when we look back at our era, is this what we're gonna think about? Or are we gonna think about the world of like, what people were wearing on Instagram?

You know, like on a big fashion world versus like real world. That's so true. But something I wanted to bring up really quickly was like this conspiracy theory I saw on TikTok about why handbags exist. And I don't know if like you can confirm or deny, but it's like these high fashion companies like don't give women pockets.

And so like they're like if we give you pockets, then you can't buy a handbag. That's the reason that they do it. Is that true or false? No, I mean, historically, that's super true. I don't know if today anyone sitting in a room like, muah-ha, then they must buy a bag. But yeah, historically, if you Google old pockets,

pockets used to be so huge. They were like these satchels that you tied around your waist, and they were like these two penjalous bags that hung from this belt, basically. And so in old garments, they didn't have pockets. They just had holes that allowed you to reach into your satchels that were swinging from your hips. And then basically, I mean, that's what most models look like they have that. Exactly, then you have to go take a milk bath

in a spa and in Switzerland. Just like carry a candle stick around and like read chaucer and waste away by the sea. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So that look comes in style. And there's no room for these big pockets which were seen as super matronly

It's like oh, that's you know my mom or our housekeeper walks around Keeping like bits of food and like odds and ends and her big pockets like that's not cool What's cool is not having to care about? Money or like needing these big pockets, you know if you're if're partying, if you don't have chores to do, if you're not carrying around like a sewing kit or whatever, you don't need a pocket. So the first handbags were these little tiny things called reticules, and it's not a coincidence

that that also sounds like ridiculous, but they almost look like little draw string. Or ridicule. Or ridicules, yeah, exactly. And they almost look like little draw strings. And now again, I think we're back in this area. I'm like, that's so chic. Like this little draw string.

Yeah. Dangle from your wrist. I always wondered where the idea of a small handbag came from because I was like, what's the point? An iPhone barely even fits in there. But it's like to prove that you don't need a bag. You don't need a bag. Because back in the day, they had like assistance

or things like that. And even today, I mean, coming back around to like, I don't know, celebrities and things like that, they have people to carry their things for them. So they're like carrying a tiny little clutch. It's like, I don't need anything. And that's why when there was all this succession discourse about like, oh my God, her bag is so big.

It's like, that's what they're talking about. It's not just the conspicuousness of the label. Wow. It's that she's like, what is she? Oh, that's fascinating. She's carrying around what could she possibly have? Like, what do you need? In there.

I love that scene. That's so funny. It's so bang on. But I also have to say that like, that's the Western version. There's also like a version of this that exists in Japan. And these are my favorite. These like tiny handbags that also sort of look like reticules that Gatius would have. And my favorite, these tiny handbags that also look like reticules

that Gatius would have, and they look like bobbles. They sort of hang from the wrist like a bracelet. And it's really, really elegant, especially if you go to the Met and they have these beads on them. Again, just stuff that now you'd be like, oh, I want it. And it's a universal ideal, ideal, this fantasy of like not needing anything. For sure, and this pervades even more traditional

classic infamous cult, full of people who grew up with a certain amount of privilege, who've then decided to take a vow of poverty or minimalism. Yes. Because like they've been set up by the system, not to need much So it's quite easy for them to leave all of their belongings behind because they're like I'm good I'm ready to cultivate my own vegetables now

So this sort of rejection of Over the top displays by privileged people who are in a position where they can do that in a chic way That plays a role in so many different cults. Yeah, and that's a good point to say that it is like those people that come from privilege because they always have that privilege to fall back on. Yeah, exactly. There's this fantasy of not needing much in the world of fashion, which is obviously not true because fashion wants you to keep buying things.

Yes. Always does. And even like the crazy thing about that is that like every time trends start changing, I'm like, I'm not gonna do it. Like I've been dead set on not doing low-waste genes, and like low-key, I'm like, I might start. I already started with a little bit under the belly button,

you know, and it like, it gets into your brain and like convinces you that if you're not wearing that, that your other or that you're not cool. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Lord knows the holiday season can be stressful. It can bring up conflict in the family.

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I want to talk more specifically about the cult leaders in this space. I feel like high fashion designers truly have a sort of guru, like Halo surrounding them, like Karl Lagerfeld, for example, the creative director of personnel for almost 40 years, was truly the fashion industry's equivalent of a charismatic cult leader, this kind of like all powerful, untouchable figure who people literally said they worshipped.

Yeah. Despite the fact that he was super problematic, I mean, he said horrible things about women's bodies. He totally dismissed the Me Too movement and yet he's still this celebrated icon. He doesn't seem to be like V-Colt. I mean, he's dead, but he doesn't seem to be like V-Colt leader of the high fashion world. Yeah. You mentioned Bernard Ardnod, I'd never heard of the dude. So I wanna hear more about him. Who's in Coo-Hood's with him?

Who secretly has power? And how do they interact and wield it? He definitely secretly has power. All of his contemporaries, I'd be so embarrassed to try to pronounce their name because they're all like French and Italian. It's like five people who run, like most of the luxury brands that we know.

And honestly, if you're looking for cultish behavior, like Ardnod definitely ruthlessly kicked people aside to get to where he is. And this way that was like very unfrench. It was considered very American, the way he went about building his house, including promising the sweet elderly couple who ran Celine that they could stay

and then just like kicking them to the curb. And they were like, we wouldn't have sold it to you if we knew you were going to like kick us out of our company. I mean, he's really, really. That's very American. They call it a... They have all these great nicknames for him. They call him like the wolf and cashmere.

And he also plays into it in this major way. Like he doesn't have a fashion background. And this was really new that he wasn't like, I'm a fashion man. He like didn't dress well. He didn't seem to care about it. And he was just seeing it he wasn't like, I'm a fashion man, he like didn't dress well, he didn't seem to care about it and he was just seeing it as like a business game. What era did he emerge? I wanna say the 80s or 90s,

I have to look at the exact year, but it's something like that. It's like big corporate power player. Who are the followers in the cult of high fashion? Like the models, the consumers, what draws them to the cult and what keeps them in, do you think? The thing that I say about fashion is, yeah, I used to think it was like, oh, the runways or the advertisements or what gets delivered to on Instagram, but really, like, fashion is a feeling inside

your head when you look at your closet and you're like, I cannot wear any of this. I have nothing to wear. Like, that's fashion. That's when it's working on you. And so it's like a bug in your brain. And it's fascinating because people continue to think that it doesn't affect them. And it like obviously, obviously, obviously does. Which again, it's not a bad thing. There's this great game online where they show you

a picture of an era and you have to guess what year it's from. It's really hard, but it's really fun. And the interesting thing is the only way you can tell is like the cars and the clothes, and that's it. And that is how we look of our time. That is how we like express ourselves as individuals in a zeitgeist. So it's not totally misguided. And I don't think we need to like beat ourselves up for falling the cult of fashion, but I do think admitting it and like being aware of it and doing exactly what you're saying, being like, oh, I'm noticing this, I'm feeling this and interrogating it

and being like, well, why? Instead of just mindlessly being like, oh, I need new pants. I'm gonna be like, think about it. Don't you already know pants that fit you? Like, why? The pants thing is so relatable. I last year when I realized that I didn't know

what pants were trendy anymore. I kept telling people that I was having a pants essential crisis because I was just like, is it cargos, is it flares, what the fuck even is it? Someone tell me, please. Yeah. Who is immune to the pants essential crisis that the fashion industry creates?

Yeah, we are all the victims and the beneficiaries. Are there different levels of follower? Because there are people who are closer to the industry, and then there are people who, like we were saying, who don't think they're affected at all, but they actually indirectly really, really are. Like, who are the levels of followers? We're all affected by it, 100%.

I think the people on the innermost circle, like, high fashion people, the people who you're talking about who, like, leave the house effortlessly like look amazing and they have this wardrobe that they've been building up their whole lives. I think those are the people who are like, I don't follow fashion. It's like, yeah, because you've cultivated your personal style and you know exactly what you like and you don't no, the real entity that's sort of controlling things. In a way that's also not Coltie, is this company called WGSN, which now doesn't stand for anything. You used to stand for Worth Global Style, and that's where it's very Coltie. It's very Coltie. So Coltie.

To not stand for anything. Get ready, this actually blew my mind. This was the first time I was like, oh, it is a conspiracy. But there's high fashion, right? There's what's on the runways. And this is stuff that, according to the business model set up by Bernard Arnoh, is meant to get headlines and press coverage and sort of engage with fashion in this art world

way that generates press and generates prestige, which ultimately sells sunglasses and perfume to us plebs. But then like the clothes we all see on the street, if you're just walking down the street, and you look at all the store windows and whatever I'm trying to think of like, I'm the Everlane J crew, like normal brands, almost all of them, I guarantee you, use this company called WGSN. And what WGSN does is they are a trend forecasting company. They compile these large dossiers of like, this is what's going to be in.

They project two years out and they talk about materials and they, you know, go to Coachella and they're like, hello fellow kids and they like see what everyone's going to do. But the part that's fascinating is they actually, you know, a subscription to WGSN costs tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars. I mean, it's very, very, very expensive for a company to buy. And one of the perks of like being a fashion student is they're like, oh, they let you look at WGSN. It's like not everyone has access to it.

And the biggest thing other than the trend reports that they have are like ready-made designs that you can basically use and click and drag. So be like, okay, these are the colors for the next two years. Pick the shirt style, pick the color, and you just sort of like make designs. And obviously every design wing, always with it, messes with it. And it's a really useful tool because being a fashion designer is hard. It's like really, really difficult work to have to turn stuff out all the time.

So the tool like WJSN is really helpful. But when you walk down the street and you look at the windows of like Everlane or J. Crew and you wonder why everything looks the same, That is why. And it's really bananas because the existential question is, are they predicting the trends or are they setting them? Because if everyone's looking to this one company to like tell their designers what to make, then is the tail wagging the dog? We don't know. They are a huge beneficiary of this whole system.

Completely. That's like what is so culty about it is that like it's like you have this leader but you don't actually know whether they're the ones implementing it or not. The whole thing is just giving QAnon. It's like a big tent conspiracy that every fashion trend much like every conspiracy theory falls under. You know, it's like, what even is QAnon anymore? What even is high fashion anymore? Who's leading it? Who's following

it? It's very, very confusing. It's a total mind-fuck. And it does also like Amanda saying, like, what is QAnon? Like, who's leading it? Who's not? That makes me think of like, when you were like, they go to Coachella or they're looking online to like decide these trends, it makes me be like, oh my god, like when you were like they go to Coachella or they're looking online to like decide these trends, it makes me be like, oh my God, like I'm like, could I possibly start a trend? Like could a normal person like be the person to start the trend and then it's like why these people maybe,

I don't know, I'm assuming get into influencing, you know, like they wanna be the trendsetters, but the question is, can they even be? I mean, it's funny, that's an experiment I've always wanted to do, but I'm not on social media, so I feel ill-equipped to do it. But I do feel like the recent trend in trends has been this sort of like, perfusion of post-lockdown cores.

I feel like the vibe was like, what are we doing now, guys? I was like, whoa, we all just came out of fighting, what are we wearing? And it was like Barbie core, gnome core, bistro core, like coastal grandma, like, what are these? And I think at one point they just became like fun because it is fun. It's like fun. And so in a weird way, I do think that people sort of seized the reins and made, remember there was that whole meme of like starter packs. And so I do Remember there was that homie, like starter packs? And so I do think there was a way that people, like, took control in some ways. Yeah.

And the gaze came out winning. Like the Lesbians, because like the trend now is like, like a lesbian fashion is like a very in right now. And I feel like it was this thing of like, everyone kind of like shot at the dark and then Lesby and came out with like pantsuits are in bitch. Bye. That is so interesting. It's like the trend that I saw winning was like I call it before and after Disney Princess. I feel like everyone is either sort of like to shovel like falling apart. I mean,

I feel like this is more like pop stars and like runway like high fashion stuff is like straps that are like Barely staying on your shoulders and like the way fish covered in water thing or the like love shack fancy Like big poofy Frilly, you know what I mean, but like you see people doing the like before and after Disney princess But I feel like that's again like talking about this like separation of worlds. I do feel like it's like, let us be in in real life before and after Disney Princess for like special events. Okay, that reminds me of this really funny TikTok that I saw that was like, I feel like gay men

are now dressing straight and straight men are now dressing. And the funniest part about it was that for both examples, they used Shawn Mendes. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. This is hilarious. And because straight men are getting more put together

and gay men are like, I'm a carpenter. Yeah. I mean, so then it sounds like high fashion has obviously a huge amount of top-down influence. But that doesn't mean that there's no grassroots power anymore at all. Like there still is grassroots power when it comes to style and fashion.

I mean, social media is a double-edged sword, but it's like there are these secret, powerful entities who are setting the trends, but then at the end of the day, especially if you're queer or if you're in a space that has, you know, one eye open all the time, like don't trust the man, you can still have autonomy over your look to some degree. I wanna believe.

Yeah, like, yeah, I wanna believe, but I don't know, like, hmm, I feel like I'm feeling so dark on this shit, but I was reading this book that's so great, it's called The Conquest of Cool. So we talked about the court of Louis XIV and how the cult was always about wanting to look rich and powerful. That dynamic changed in the 60s and that's when High Fashion really took the tumble because it was less about looking rich and more about looking cool.

Like a hippie, yeah. Like a hippie and everyone's like, what is cool? You know what, when you see it, but it's very hard to classify. It's not as easy to follow as like, well, that person has the most money, so I'll follow them or like that person's from a higher social class than me.

I'll follow them. It's like, what's cool? And it led to this, you know, that's sort of the seeds of the discourse that we are picking up now. Just like, where is it? Like, what's the inspiration? Oh, Just like, where is it? Like, what's the inspiration? Oh, no.

Like, where is it now? And the interesting thing is this book goes into, basically, he was like, what did corporate America think of the hippies? And sure, there's this like madman idea that they were like, oh my god, the youth, or like every parent character in a Beatles movie. He's like, oh my god, this crazy, or like every parent character in a Beatles movie is like, oh my god, this crazy rock and roll, or so scandalized by it. But really,

you know, if you think about the advertising world of Madison Avenue in the 60s, like those guys were cool. Like, they smoked pot, they listened to rock and roll, they dug it, just like the hippies, they listen to rock and roll, they dug it, just like the hippies, and they used cool marketing to sell shit. Like you see these ads from the time they're like, this is not an ad selling you a Volkswagen, you know, it's like we get it. And you know, like Pepsi that the youth,

like it was cool advertising, and they were like, ads will always be cooler than you. And it's such a small little thing that totally blew my mind. Because now when I see ads pop up, who's in it? The coolest, most cutting-edge-looking people

shilling for product, like ads are very good at hiring cool people to make things look cool. So what is cool? What you're describing is so important in cult history because the 60s and 70s, a time of incredible socio-political uproar and unrest, Kennedy assassinations, Vietnam War, civil rights movement. This is when alternative groups and fringy religions came in being like, fuck the man.

We're gonna start our own thing and these are the new rules that you need to follow in order to make your life meaningful. But then, once the man found out about all of that, it was able to capitalize on it and monetize it and that's why now that podcast like this can exist because it's really hard to tell what's fringe, what's cool, what's mainstream, what even is a cult. A cult can be a corporation, but a cult can also be a fringy group

on the edges of society. It's so hard to tell because of that moment that you're describing when corporate advertising and fringy coolness coalesced. Yes. And I think because of the access of social media, like social media is adjacent to marketing now, and social media can be attained by any individual.

Therefore, the marketing of coolness is now accessible to the public at large, which actually is making me think that fashion is less culty because of the decentralization of power in marketing. And so the way that I hear you talk about it is, in the 60s, yeah, there was cool and they brought in cool, but still only a handful of companies had access

to decide what is cool. And now it's like, you can post with the most confidence on your Instagram page, and you can exude coolness to the people that follow you and then grow from there. But who's controlling you? That's the question, too, is like... That's the other thing. to like the people that follow you and then grow from there. But who's controlling you? That's the question too, is like... That's the other thing.

Like, yeah, with fashion, you're always following something or someone unless you are dressed up as a giant, if you're wearing like a balloon dress, if you're wearing something that just does not exist in the world. Yeah, I do actually think that there are some people in this, like, particularly, like, younger people, like, Gen Z, like, I, and even younger than Gen Z, that, like, I, as Gen Z cusp millennial, don't relate to, like, I see them and I'm like, that outfit is ugly. I'm like, what are you wearing?

But they are inventing that outfit from scratch. So I do think that it's possible to create new trends from the ground up. And do you think that these are grassroots things that they are styling themselves or is it like brands they're buying? The ones that I'm saying on my algorithm at least are grassroots because there's such a movement with thrifting. It's like for the thrifting culture has, like, putting pieces together from scratch. And if you're thrifting, you're pulling from, you know, a causative, like, all looks in all of history. I guess thrifting is an antidote to the cult of high fashion, right?

Maybe? Can I tell you something really messed up? I had it on authority from someone who worked for a very big brand that I can't say, that they were like, oh, sustainability is in. We are going to make these t-shirts out of plastic bottles, but in the supply chain, it was too labor intensive to gather all the plastic bottles. So they first had to manufacture plastic bottles. then stop it. Stop it. So that's the thing. That's the scary thing about trends is like I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade.

Like I do still think we have power and I think we can control it for ourselves. Like we all have autonomy over what we put on our bodies but they're like way larger players who are very very very invested very invested in this. And I think about this a lot with the trend of quilting, whenever I see a quilted jacket, mass-manufactured at some big target or something, it's like, oh my god, they had to, they didn't gather all those fabric scraps, they made all this extra product to make it. That's the thing, I do hold that hope, and I do love that people are finding their own style. And I do think you're right.

I do think there is sort of a new movement and a new aesthetic and a new sort of freedom that's a foot that I love and I super admire. I'm just super skeptical of the corporate side. When you said, can I tell you something? And you said that like sustainability is in. I thought you were going to say that companies are like selling their clothes to thrift shops.

I thought you were going to say they were planting their clothing items at thrift stores. Brilliant. You're genius, devious, brilliant people. And you should sell your services to some giant multinational. Yeah, well, they're listening to this. Yeah.

Do it, but only if you pay us. But don't do it because it's that for the environment. Yeah, that's what's tough about knowing about cults is that like you hold so much information about how to start one. So how does the cult of high fashion compare to the cult of fast fashion in your opinion? Well, it's interesting because like the line is blurring with essence and I guess essence is sort of the biggest one. It's easier than ever to get high fashion clothes. And it isn't the best for small designers.

I mean, they are also working in a fast fashion system. And the joke about essence is that it's always on sale. It's always, always, always on sale. And so obviously, fast fashion is impacting high fashion just at like the rate that things go out of style. And I mean the nest of Friedman just posted this video that's like sort of conceptually brilliant but also a little horrifying of the latest Mark Jacob's runway show. And it was 30 seconds long. It looked like the end of a show where all the models come rushing out, but that was the whole show,

which I mean, you have to hand it to him as a little brilliant because it means it can go like viral more easily and like everyone can see all the looks, but it was just so emblematic of the ways in which high fashion is impacted by fast fashion. I mean, fashion shows used to be three hours long and then they were 20 minutes long and and everyone was like, 20 minutes is so short, and I think that's gonna be the next move. So yeah, I think because of everything we're saying, that fashion is social, I think if more people change their looks depending on their budget.

And now I'm like, is that a way of people seizing power that fast-fascens impacting high fashion? I don't know, it's so hard to be like, what's empowering and what's just like playing into the hand of the market? For sure. For sure. I want to ask, so cults often host splashy events

to make the group look more alluring from the outside. And I wonder what you think are the most cult-like aspects of high fashion events like the Met Gala? And how do they work to keep this larger cult in power? Oh my god, that's such a good point. I love all these connections you're making. Like, oh shit, it really is a cult. I mean, like, fashion's built on that, right? Like, that's the bedrock of fashion, like every advertisement, every, you know, couture loses money. Like, runway shows are not money makers.

They are just exactly what you're talking about. They're splashy events that like create a lot of cloud and generate a lot of buzz and make the brand look cool again so they can sell like sunglasses and wallets. But like, I don't know. I have a soft spot for the Met Gala personally because I'm just like, it's a fundraiser for the Met. Like I love supporting the costume institute

and like supporting the archival display of garments. I'm like, yes, the coverage has gotten out of hand, but it's also like a fun event. Exactly. It's like, can we even have fun anymore? And I'm just kidding. No, but it is. Like at least you're watching people like

who will around and be themselves, even if they are addressed by like stylists who pull things, at least. I don't know, you are watching people sort of be themselves and not be in a fashion advertisement or walking down a runway. So I don't know, I think, like, fashion in a world that's so built on parties and artifice,

like, I like the Met Gala. Even the end people scoff, they're like, it's just a costume ball, that's not real fashion. I'm like, yeah. So. So what? I love it. It's a scape-ass. We all need as much as scape as the music we can get. I love that it's like on the front page of the New York Times, that it like constitutes a news that like Gerlato or a giant cat costume like great, put it in my veins. There's so much written about like the death of monoculture. And I do think that the Met Gala is one of those monocultural events that like brings everyone together to have a discourse, which is nice. It's so silly because so I'm very lucky I get to go to the press preview at them.

Like obviously I don't go to the Met Gala, but I go to the press preview, which is so funny because like we get to see the exhibit before all the celebrities do. And it's funny when you walk there and you're like, it's a exhibit. Like, it's a museum. Yeah. It's like very funny that everyone's lining. And then you see people lining up outside. And you know, the press preview is at 9 a.m. And the gala is at night.

And you see people lining up to look at this. Which, yeah. You could be like, oh, it's sort of pathetic. And it is a little pathetic. But it's also like, I don't know. I love pomp and circumstance. Yes exactly. It's an event And just like remembering that we do all care just like everything you're talking about You so like the idea of like oh, I need new pants and I need to figure out why like I feel fashion working on me

And I need to understand it. I do feel like the Met Gala is one of those moments where we're like oh, we all care Why do we all care like yes? Yeah, it reminds of like, I went to a baseball game the other day, which like, I don't do that often, but I do like famously love sports in general. I think they're like so exciting. And I went to a baseball game and like, I literally was like not even looking at the game. I was just looking at the view

because like behind the Dodger Stadium is like, there's a beautiful sunset with like these mountains. And it's like so gorgeous and I was just like staring at the sunset. But then when everyone cheers, I cheer because it's just exciting to be a part of something and to be at an event. Yeah.

And there's nothing inherently wrong with that until people start exploiting those human drives, you know? Exactly, exactly. All right, we have two more questions for you and then we're gonna play a little game. Excellent. So do, we have two more questions for you. And then we're going to play a little game. Excellent. So do you think the industry of high fashion has had a net positive or a net negative impact on the greater culture and how so?

It's so interesting. Because like, as we said, there are like all these different eras of it and all these different sort of economic configurations of it. And I think we're going through like the throws of a new one right now with social media. Yeah. Shit like that.

So I don't know. It's really hard to categorically say because it's meant so many different things and represented so many different economies. But over time, net positive, I love clothes. And it's fun. And I do believe in it as an art form. Like, I guess that's the other thing.

It's like when you talk about the economics, it's easy to remember that it's beautiful. And it's like a beautiful, meaningful thing. Hearing you talk about that, it reminds me of like, when I was a little kid, I always wanted to wear a uniform to school. Like, I was always jealous of kids who went to private school because they got to wear a uniform. Because. Like I was always jealous of kids who like went to private school

because they like got to wear a uniform because I didn't want to think about it. I wanted to wake up and I wanted to just like my personality to like be my outfit, you know? And like that would be so easy. But I do think that would be hard on society because then people don't have like this form of expression of like telling others others who they are,

even by not choosing to be a fashionista, you're telling someone who you are. Yeah, exactly. Trends come from wanting to be individuals and wanting to be in society. Because if we all want to be individuals, we'd all be wearing whatever addresses made out of balloons. And if we all wanted to be in absolute lockstep,

we'd all be in uniform. So what are these like waves of change that's like us navigating our social landscape, which is cool. That's cool that you can see it on people's bodies. Net positive. Yeah. Not positive. We landed in an optimistic place. It's so interesting to think of like, you know, people will say who their style icons are or whatever. And it's interesting to look at whether those style icons are people who more toe the line or fuck the line, you know, like there are people like Bjork, you know, God bless Bjork,

who wears swans on the red carpet and whatever, who's just like totally living outside the margins. But that comes with its own challenges. It's like, if you wanna be a member of the cult of society, you kinda have to conform to some things. And the way you dress also signifies what other cults you may be in, like the cult of Swifties have outfits, the cult of Silicon Valley has a look, you know?

Like every sub-culture has some kind of uniform. And that uniform tends to say something about how much room for individuality there is in that particular cult. Our last question is, so many different individual high fashion brands have had scandals over the years. Which high fashion brand do you think is the cultiest?

I mean, hmm. Well, obviously, as I was going to give it was like Lou Vuitton, but I think it's Telphar. Like the way that Telphar trends every time there's a backdrop, people lose their mind over Telphar. I think Telphar is the cultiest. Oh wow. For good reason. And they have like not a lot. So like, I don't know, I'm not speaking English well today, but it's doing great. They don't, they sell out very quickly. So true. I also think Balenciaga, we have to say,

is like, I mean, the traditional definitely. I'm really sure. Yeah, I'm like, where did Balenciaga come from even is kind of my question. I'm like, truly, I feel like overnight it became this thing. But it's been around for a while? Well, it was around for a while. And, you know, Crystal Bob Balenciaga was a Spanish clothier who had believed in brands.

And then one of the interesting things was in the 60s, he actually closed his house. He was like, I can't do this anymore because Oatkator seemed like it was dying. And everyone freaked out. You know, this old guard of women who used to go to friends and get their clothes fitted were like, that's it. It's the end of Katoor. And then obviously, you know, his brand was revived. Like all these brands get sort of revived years later.

Like, Shaparelli has just come back and it's like, huh, why? Like, someone decided it was a good time to revive the brand. And so it's funny that it's always been this sort of like bell weather popping in and out. But yeah, there was a period where when it shuttered, I believe, who is it? Diana Rieland was out of friends house and she was like, she didn't come out of her room

for three days. She was mortified. That's what I got closed. So, yeah. People have cared. But the recent look is very different. Yeah, so we are going to play a game. So this is a classic sounds like a cult game.

It's called Cultie Quotes. Okay. So we're going to read you a list of quotes. And you're going to have to guess whether each one was said by a notorious cult leader from history or a high fashion icon. Okay. Okay, Cultie Quotes. Who said this? A cult leader from history or a high fashion icon. Okay. Okay, Coltie quotes, who said this? A cult leader from history or a fashion icon?

Those who want things always to stay the same are not living in the real world. Fashion. Correct. It was Anna-Wan-Wan-Joy. Ah, also Coltie. Okay, second quote. You know, a long time ago, being crazy meant something.

Nowadays, everybody's crazy. Ooh, that's such a good quote. Fashion. Uh. No. Everyone always guesses this one wrong because it's such a good quote, but it's a classic Manson quote, Charles Manson. Oh, it's so good.

It's a really good one. Yeah. Okay, next quote. Vanity is the healthiest thing in life. Man, you really have me don't second guessing with that Manson quote. Okay, fashion, fashion. Yeah, it was Carl who I don't know on a pronounce it doesn't even Lagerfeld?

Lagerfeld. Lagerfeld. Oh, he would. He would. All these views, I'm like, oh, they are culty figures. Are they? Or are they? Or totally.

I mean, they like make some people's lives and ruin others. They build a lot of power. They make us. Okay, next quote. A man's lives and ruin others. Yeah. They build a lot of power. They make us. Okay, next quote. A man's got to make at least one better day. I'll see, could be walking around lucky

and never know it. Oh, yeah, that's Jim Jones right there. Okay. Also a great orator. And some might say of a style icon. Some people thought he was hot. I don't agree. People are weird.

Well, they're taste. Okay, it's no good to be too easily swayed by people's opinions. You have to believe in yourself. Fashion. Yeah. Donate. I love Asachi. I don't know why I say that. Rock on. How could you not? Yeah. Okay, and the last quote, if you can think psychographically and not demographically, you can really target a lot more audiences. Ooh, psychographically, fashion. Yes, that was.

Yeah, I mean, the word psychographically is so absurd, but this was a fashion icon and the icon was Tyra Banks. Yeah. Incredible. Yeah. Incredible. I mean, Tyra Banks has so. Incredible. Yeah. Incredible. I mean, Tyra Banks has so many iconic lines. Like, what was the season where she was yelling at Tiffany?

I believed in you. We were rooting for you. We were rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. She's so dramatic. Oh my God. So dramatic, so funny. Well, thanks for joining us.

Oh, this is so funny. Yeah, this has been so much fun. Can you tell our listeners where they can follow you and your cult? Oh my God. Articles of interest is available wherever you get your podcasts. Oh my goodness, I think. Thank you.

You're welcome, Savory. Yeah, this has been so much fun. Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey!

So, Issa, out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. What do you think about the cult of high fashion? I do still think, even after talking to our guests, it is for sure a live your life. Everything we cover is a cult, but it's a live your life. Like, it's fun, it's exciting, and it just doesn't seem dangerous.

You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, it is manipulative. We established that. It is elitist. It's got rituals, but it's not like that harmful. Yeah. Territively, when you think about all the cults we discuss, it is culty for sure, but it's got to be a classic live your life.

I guess the only thing is like you can't really get out of it, but being in it doesn't really ruin your life so much, other than my pants a central crisis. But we can live with it. Well, that's our show. Thanks so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next year, speaking of next year, Esa announced the other week

that she is moving on to focus on her comedy and her new podcast, and you can keep up with more announcements about that at the link in our show notes. And I'm moving forward to to focus on my new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking, which I'm so proud of and excited about. And my new magical overthinkers podcast, those things will be out next spring. But for those who still enjoy this podcast, for those who believe in it, still have high hopes for it, it turns out I'm going to be continuing this show too.

I want to thank you listeners. It is because of your listenership and encouragement that the show has a future. It's going to be a little bit different. I didn't know how it was going to turn out, but I've been conducting interviews for several months now with these absolutely amazing guest hosts who are not only experts in each subject of the week. They are so charming and they're people who really get the tone of the show, who know the show, who love the show. The chemistry has been chemistry. These guests are going to make you laugh.

They're going to make you think we've got so many juicy topics coming. The Cult of Amazon, the cult of K-pop, the cult of the CIA, I had a former CIA analyst come on the show and she was hilarious and she's a fan of the show. So it was just perfect. I'm excited to hear what you think of these episodes and I really hope that you come on board for as Marshall Apple White from heaven's gate might say,

the next evolutionary level of sounds like a cult. We're gonna take a little break until then, we could all use a break. And in the meantime, y'all know you better stay mother fucking culty, but you know, nott Pud. Sounds like a cult was created and hosted by Amanda Montel and E. Samadina. This episode was edited and mixed by Jordan Moore of The Pod Cabin. Our theme music is by Casey Colt. To join the Sounds Like a Colt, Colt, follow the podcast on Instagram at Sounds Like a Colt

Pud. And if you like this show, feel free to give us a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts. That's Anytime Fitness. That's really F. Visit anytimefitness.com.