Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Mormon #MomTok

Episode Date: October 1, 2024

Who’s your #mommy culties: Taylor or Whitney? That’s right, fresh(ish?) off the release of Hulu’s Secret Lives of Mormon Wives reality series (for which Amanda and Reese attended a blissfully tinsel-adorned premiere party #notsponsored lol), this week we are covering the cult of Mormon MomTok. This coalition of young Mormon mothers turned TikTok stars raises a truly baffling number of questions: Are these girls really Mormon? Does that matter? Where are their garments? Are they even friends? And most importantly, will MomTok survive the "swinging scandal" that overtook headlines a few years back, earning these gals their own TV show?!?!?!??!?! Grab your heaviest Stanley, fill it with Fruity Pebbles ;) and settle in to have all of your most sacred prayers answered. Potentially cultier than the sum of its cults (and trust us there are plenty), Reese and Amanda are determined to get to the bottom of the drama-filled, diet Dr. Pepper flavored mom-strosisty that is #MomTok. Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod @reesaronii @amanda_montell @chelseaxcharles  Watch the new season of Sounds Like A Cult on YouTube! Thank you to our sponsors!  Head to Squarespace.com for a free trial, and when you’re ready to launch, go to https://www.squarespace.com/CULT to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Visit BetterHelp.com/CULT today to get 10% off your first month. Dipsea is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/cult.  Go to stopscooping.com/SLAC and enter promocode SLAC to save an EXTRA $50 on any Litter-Robot bundle.   To order Amanda's new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking: Notes on Modern Irrationality, click here. To subscribe to Amanda's new Magical Overthinkers podcast, click here :)

The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Mormon TikTok feminism must be one of the strangest forms of feminism that exists. On one side, you've got the Mormon wackadoodliness. On the other side, you've got this like swinger pseudo scandal. It's just like TikTok cotton candy. Yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host Amanda Montell, author of the books Cultish and the Age of Magical Overthinking.

And I'm Reese Oliver, sounds like a cult's coordinator and today's co-host. Every week on this show, we discuss a different fanatical fringe group from the cult role Zeitgeist, from manifestation to Montessori schools to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really?

And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? Live your life, watch your back, or get the fuck out? After all, cultish influence can show up in so many unexpected cultural pockets these days and not all of them are equally destructive. This is so true, Reese. Thank you, Amanda. What's up? I've been watching the actual live television news.

Oh, no. It's so addicting. It's like the telejournalist's dialect. It's such an earworm, and it's so bizarre. Today, we are discussing the cult of Mormon mom talk. It is a story like this. Yes, yes. It's like the transatlantic accent of today.

It's just artificial media voice and I love it. I know and I've been doing it to Casey. I'll like wake up in the morning and I'll be like, good morning Casey for breakfast. Would you like eggs or toast? Oh my God, me tradwifing. I don't actually make Casey breakfast. I'm all like, let me know your options.

Yeah, that more like it. I'll be like, tell me your options and I will see you in five minutes, Casey. Anyway, the point of this show you're listening to currently sounds like a cult is to unpack different culty corners of society in a lighthearted tone, okay, to try and figure out if they're relatively harmless, albeit culty, or more sinister than that. And today we are buzzing with delight and cognitive dissonance, to discuss one of the most curious culty niches and sounds like a cult history, a bizarre intersection of Mormonism and social media that could really only exist in 2024.

Yes, folks, today we are frothing at the mouth to discuss the cult of Mormon mom talk, or hashtag mom talk. The discussion of mom talk is a discussion that comes on the heels of the new Secret Lives of Mormon Wives show that recently premiered on Hulu. And we would like to make it very clear right from the jump that this episode is by no means Hulu sponsored. We are not sponsored by Hulu. We did get invited to go to the wackiest premiere event you could ever imagine for this show that we will roast shortly. I might need to bust out my denim jacket.

Oh my God, same. And actually the main thing I wanna tell you today is that I still have tinsel in my hair. It is indestructible. Immediately upon arrival, Amanda was peer pressured into tinseling her hair. I was, I was whisked. It literally, it felt like when I was 19

and I got kidnapped by the Scientologists allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, we like walked in the door. We wanted to go to the goddamn cheese table. They were like, no, you're getting tinsel in your hair. Do you want the Utah curl, the bubble braid or the hair tinsel? Pick one. Yeah, no, it was so aggressive, but it was actually also so gentle, and that's how they get you. So we really got into it. If you have not understood a single word that we've uttered so far, don't worry.

It's okay. We're going to hold you like a temple garment holds in a Mormon's junk, okay? Don't you worry. Don't worry at all. Not for a minute. Thank you to our sponsor Squarespace. Start with a free trial at squarespace.com. It's where dreams become websites.

Head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to https://www.squarespace.com slash cult to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. If you're a fan of spicy movies, TV shows, or books, you have got to check out Dipsy. For listeners of the show, Dipsy is offering an extended 30 days of free trial. Dipsy is a free trial that's free to watch on YouTube, YouTube, and YouTube. Dipsy is a free trial that's free to watch on YouTube, YouTube, and YouTube. Dipsy is a free trial that's free to watch on YouTube, YouTube, and YouTube.

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Dipsystories.com slash cult. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Rediscover your curiosity with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash cult today to get 15% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash cult. They say that robots are taking over the world. And when it comes to my litter robot, I am all for that. As a special offer to listeners of the show, go to stop scooping.com slash SLAC and enter promo code SLAC to save an extra $50 on any Litter Robot bundle. That's

an extra $50 off any Litter Robot bundle at stop scooping.com slash SLAC and enter promo code SLAC at checkout. Stop scooping.com slash SLAC and enter promo code SLAC. The Cult of Mormon mom talk. Let's get into it. What the fuck is it? Let's deliver some fast facts. Let's provide some much needed exposition. I myself would describe it as the cult of hype houses meets the cult of mom fluency meets the cult of purity culture meets the cult of Stanley cupsencing meets the cult of purity culture meets the cult of Stanley cups all of which of course are Underscored by the cult of Mormonism. Yes. So just to be absolutely clear

Hashtag mom talk is a coalition of several 24 to 32 let's say year old Mormon mommies who make tick tocks together hashtag mom talk a group created slash originated by Mormon mommy, TikTokker creator, the infamous Taylor, Frankie Paul. She currently sits at 4.1 million TikTok followers by the way, according to the show, her co-creators of mom talk are Whitney Leavitt who is, Ooh girl, she is your reality TV villain. She was having the time of her life at this event, by the way, and I loved

to see her having the time of her life. Michaela Matthews and Macy Neely. There are some other characters here that are not present in the show that were very much present in the real life hashtag Mom Talk cult, which I find really intriguing. But yes, apparently this group was created, Taylor claims, to reclaim some feminine agency in like an otherwise strict and patriarchal community maybe? Or to redefine modern Mormonism on their own terms? Or to sit around in sweatpants and make cute little videos? The purpose is really unclear. Merky as a dirty soda filled with heavy cream.

Murky as a coconut cream, Dr. Pepper, a lime twist, whatever, but it's diet, so it's fine. Anyways, there is now a whole American Girl Doll line of Mormon mommies that all make mommy content together. So this is a small clique of Mormon mom talkers, but the reason that there's any mainstream media attention on this community whatsoever, the reason they got their own Hulu show, the reason they got their own, I don't know, let's say $200,000 allegedly launch premiere event is because two years ago, the queen bee, the alleged founder of this Mormon mom talk community, Taylor, dropped a bombshell, in scare quotes, via TikTok Live, that quote unquote, everyone in the Mormon mom

talk group had been quote unquote, soft swinging with each other. Okay. So basically there was like a flurry of headlines in actual mainstream media sources about two years ago after Taylor revealed that there was this Mormon mom talks swinging arrangement going on. But the confusing bit is that there is a dispute surrounding who among these Mormon mommies was actually involved with the swinging. Many of the gals deny being involved. Also, the swinging kind of just seems to have consisted of like a little making out. Like I don't, I don't, I don't really know what went on. Basically it was just like the way they make it sound like it was everything but all the

way in front of each other, but then Taylor breached this agreement by having presumably penetrative sex with not her husband and forming an emotional attachment to him as well. And that was the big no-no, the catalyst for her going on live and spilling the beads about everyone. S. And this also makes it very clear why there was a confessional booth at the launch party. Yes. So yeah, we will get into this later, but like there is this aspect of Mormon mom talk

of like, if I don't confess this on TikTok live, it wasn't a real experience. It's not a valid experience. I need to be perceived in everything that I do in order to legitimize my life or something. Long and short of it is that like most of this reported swinging kind of just seemed like college coed behavior. It would literally not be interesting, much less a scandal if it weren't for the Mormonism of it all, right? For sure. The Mormonism piece makes this fascinating

because there is such a clash of values and behaviors. We will analyze that in full shortly. Basically, this drama though that was made so public caused a rift in the friend group, especially betwixt Taylor, who the reality show positions as the protagonist, and Whitney, who the reality show positions as the antagonist. And this is real, the hullabaloo resulted in three divorces. And as a result, a whole swath of dysfunctional relationship issues with Mormonism generally, but also this specific friend group were exposed. So that's that's kind of the 411. Yes, that's the gist. And all of this has born a television show on Hulu, which follows basically the aftermath of this and follows this group of women trying to navigate the future of

mom talk post Taylor's swinging confession and early into the show arrest. Yes, indeed, legal troubles have befallen at least one of the members of this quote unquote cult, that being Taylor. And of course, the show was sure to capture that. And something I found really interesting watching the show is that it seems like a lot of the people who purportedly engaged in said swinging were not involved in the show at all. There are Mormon mommies whose names and faces you have never heard of or seen that were likely the ones actually swinging that are not part of this TV show at all. I was looking, I was doing some research and what the internet defines as the big three

of mom talk and what the TV show defines as the big three of mom talk are completely different people. Another wrench in this whole debacle is that the mormon church after the release of this tv show, which was at the time of our recording this a whopping three days ago, the LDS church has already released a public statement denouncing the quote-unquote entertainment industry as a whole and pretty much just publicly distancing themselves from this show and this group of women, which is really funny because they don't really do that that often. They felt this important enough.

Right, right. Yeah. Who the Mormon church sort of like makes exceptions for and claims as their own and allows a little bit of slack towards is a whole fascinating separate discussion. But there are sort of unspoken levels of like how good of a Mormon you are. Like the term Jack Mormon is someone who's not totally excommunicated, but they don't really abide by the rules. I mean, what the fuck do I know? But from what I can tell, and based on the bit of exposure to Mormon communities that I've had, I would categorize most of these mommies as Jack Mormons.

Most of them, but Demi would rate herself a nine out of 10 on the Mormon scale. She'll have it be known. Okay. Yeah. And have it be known. And now a quick word from our cult-followed sponsors who make the show possible. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. Squarespace is an all-in-one, best-in-class website platform for entrepreneurs, podcasters, artists, anyone who wants to stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out a brand or managing a growing business, Squarespace makes it super easy to create a beautiful site,

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Dipsy is offering an extended 30 day free trial when you go to dipsysstories.com slash cult. That's 30 days of full access for free when you go to D-I-P-S-E-A stories.com slash cult, dipsysstories.com slash cult. So the show, I don't want to dedicate too much of this episode to discussing the show. There's a lot of reality TV discussions

on Sounds Like a Cult, and I don't want to burden you listeners with more of it than you really should have to hear about. But I will say, just based on the pilot, I was a little befuddled by the premise of the show. It struck me as a little confusing in mission, if you will, because I kind of thought the show would be dedicated to unpacking the effect of Mormonism

on the social media generation. I mean, those expectations were too high. You gave it way too much credit going in. Did I really? Well, because the opening of the show was so cheeky and the event that we went to was so cheeky, I was like, okay, clearly there's a sense of self-awareness and humor here and I would love to see that kind of treatment to a reality show discussing religious trauma.

But that doesn't exist except for the show sounds like a goal. But then I was like, all right, if it's not that, then maybe this will be sort of this like salacious expose, you know, illuminating more of this scandal than the original wave of headlines did. So those were sort of the two expectations that I had. But then just based on the bit that I saw, it felt a little uncomfortable to watch as all of these sort of culty reality shows from Sister Wives to the Duggars feel uncomfortable to watch.

Due to the fact that Mormons can't have alcohol or caffeine or drugs of any kind, it kind of felt like attention was just another drug and that this was like an extreme way to almost like OD on attention. And Hulu was sort of providing an outlet for that, encouraging that, pouring gasoline on the fire of that. Yeah, I think through watching it, I settled on the premise being to illuminate the cognitive dissonance in these women specifically and to recalibrate the boundaries of what standards of Mormonism does mom talk as a whole stand for and abide by and which ones does it not and thusly which women are allowed to stay in and which are not.

The show is definitely not holding the audience's hand through that analysis. You have to bring a critical lens of your own to it in order to derive anything of substance. But that is what we're here for. Okay, now I also want to say before we get into our proper cult analysis, that while the cult of Mormon mon talk is quite niche and might not be the most relatable subject we've ever tackled.

It is this fascinating case study that you kind of alluded to just now of when the pressure to conform to dogmatic, time-worn religious standards clashes with the pressure to self-brand and individualize in the social media age. Like, I am fascinated by that collision in general, where the cult of individualism and social media and where the cult of traditional religion have a Mentos and Diet Coke interaction, because those values are fundamentally at odds. And generally speaking, Mormons have tried for a long time, oftentimes successfully, to make social media work for them by using it as a missionary tool, a kind of loophole to give Mormon wives and mothers an outlet or a passion outside of domestic life that doesn't violate traditional gender roles.

And this community of Mormon mom talkers is an example of when that reconciliation attempt of those two very different systems Goes in an extreme direction So Amanda the question of the day the thing on everybody's minds What makes Mormon mom talk not just odd or something you scroll past and go you but culty? potentially Nefarious. Okay, clearly not everybody is going ew because these girls be getting brand deals.

And the money these girls make just as an aside is crazy. Cause there's a conflict later in the show where one of the husbands wants to go to New York for medical school, but the wife is like, well, my TikTok is funding your medical school. And for my TikTok, we need to be in Utah. So they're making life changing amounts of money. But also seemingly life halting amounts of money, because if she's making the funds for his medical school, but he can't use them, then like, culty, culty, you know, like they're trapped. So I want to go down a list of culty, culty. You know, like they're trapped.

So I wanna go down a list of culty qualities for us to unpack. The first one that came to mind for me was a sense of polarization, attention between old ways and new ways of engaging with Mormonism, pushing each side in a more extreme direction. Yeah, there's a lot of, you feel the scrutiny from both directions the entire time.

And oddly enough, the girls say that in the aftermath of the show's production, most of the scrutiny they've received has been from other Mormons. I mean, obviously we saw that in the church releasing that letter being like, hey, we don't align with these women. And I want to call back to what you were saying earlier about Mormons potentially using social media as a tool for like recruitment for lack of a better word. I guess evangelizing is a more accurate word. But something that Macy, one of the mommies, had to say was that they allow investigators to come to church and we hope that they can become a Mormon.

And so it's interesting to see people saying we don't claim them these aren't Mormons. And so it's interesting to see people saying we don't claim them. These aren't Mormons. It almost feels like they're trying to bring people into Mormonism by showing and that it doesn't always have to feel like Mormonism, which to me feels like a losing battle. It's confusing. It's like, well, what even is it then? Is Mormonism like long hair extensions and Stanley Cups?

Or is it strict adherence to Patriarchal notions. I mean, we're not even gonna have time to get into it today. But like one of the most Bonkers Mormon beliefs to me and I learned this at a conference that took place in Salt Lake City a few years ago that I've mentioned On the show before it was specifically a conference for ex-Mormons turned sex educators I learned that like in order for a woman to get into heaven, her husband has to whisper her secret Mormon name at the pearly gates. Like that's the only way she's allowed in. Or like the fact that being gay is acknowledged as real in Mormonism, you just can't act on it. So if you're a straight woman or a gay woman, you're just not perceived as having a sexuality whatsoever.

You're allowed to be married to a gay man and that's called a mixed orientation marriage, okay? So it's like, are you adhering to a religion that preaches these values or are you just vibing in a general Mormon aesthetic way? Kat, that's kind of what it feels like it is, is that they're all in a group where it's like, we support each other through being Mormon mothers by having each other's backs when we break the rules of the room.

All of it feels very hypocritical in the same way. One of the moments that really just icing on the cake this for me is in one of the later episodes, one of the women is holding a party where she wants to de-stigmatize female genitalia and everybody is painting their vaginas and it's a lovely, glorious friendship moment. And then the host of this party reveals that the whole purpose of this celebrate your vagina girly event hangout was that she was revealing her labiaplasty. Right. And like, we're obviously bringing quite the satirical tone to this discussion. We're roasting. In truth, I of course have a lot of sincere empathy for folks who grew up in

cultish religious communities and want more. But it just must be said that Mormon TikTok feminism must be one of the strangest forms of feminism that exists. Okay, wait, speaking of getting really distracted by the aesthetic of Mormonism and mistaking that as Mormonism, we have to talk about the cult equality of conformism and a literative feast. So when it comes to the uniform of social media Mormonism, the one thing they do strictly adhere to is this very sort of trendy blonde lip fillered

eyelash extended Utah girl algorithm generated look. The reason I were guffawing because before we went to the event, we got one of those packets that's supposed to help you recognize the cast members. When we got to the event, this is how you would know who was who. And all the cast members had a little headshot in the little bio. And I'm like, if this is meant to help us tell these women apart, it's not doing the job because none of them have distinguishing features. No, that's part of the reason why before the event I was like, shoot, I need to watch at least like

three episodes of this because I am not going to know how to tell these women apart. Otherwise, unless I like watch them for enough time. Well, and then this is how far those appearance standards go. I mean, who knows whose choice this was, but like when we arrived at the event, you knew generally who the cast members were because they were in bright red. They were all wearing the exact same shade of red. Yes. And they looked gorgeous. Let me be clear. I loved it. I appreciated it. I respect the glam. But this goes back to this quality that not only Mormons, but so many folks, in particular women who grew up in sort of dogmatic, religious bubbles, tend to display is that like so many of the emotional and just plain practical tools that those who grow up in secular society and are fortunate

to come to learn from their parents and their communities are lacking so often in rigid religious communities. And so to see a 30 year old woman doing like, you know, a saucy TikTok dance in front of a lens while drinking a dirty soda because she's not allowed to have alcohol, all the while knowing that she did not receive a substantive sexual health education. And there's a reality TV show crew there

to capture the whole thing for the viewing pleasure of thirsting audiences like us, I guess, was just like, on a serious note, a little unsettling, I should say. No, what was one of the questions we asked? We asked at one point if they would have preferred to have had a comprehensive sex education or be allowed to drink shamelessly now. And one of the Mormons we spoke to at least said that she would have rather drink. Yeah. So for context, we played a few sort of facetious rounds of would you rather with cast members of the show at the event. You can check them out on our Instagram.

They were questions like, would you rather tattoo mom talk for life on your ass or the Joseph Smith quote of your choosing on your neck. And yes, one of them was, would you rather have had a comprehensive sex education or be allowed to drink alcohol freely? Most chose the latter, which was telling, I think. And that's like a very large thread throughout the show is like, oh, these are all very teenage level conflicts

and emotions that these people don't know how to work through because they've not been taught. It's really sad. Mormon mom talk in general, and then like the party as an embodiment of those, of all of that, you know, with a couple hundred thousand dollars behind it. It all just feels like an extreme reaction

to the lack of freedom in the mainstream church in 2024, like how that's landing in 2024, because as a strict Mormon person growing up in Utah, when your leash is so fucking short and your standards for behavior and expression are so rigid, but you also know because of social media that there are people out there who live differently, but also you benefit enough

from this privileged community that you don't want to radically start over or completely deconstruct. At some point, you're gonna take whatever slack is in that leash and whatever resources are available to you and just go fucking bananas, like a naughty 16 year old. And for this community, Mormon Swinger Mom Talk is that insanity.

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I do think that their TikTok accounts very much serve as these spaces for these women to just get all of their sillies out and do 5 million dances a day if they want to. Whitney at one point makes a statement about one of the largest scandals that she has undergone, which is that she made a cheeky little TikTok dance video with her infant in the hospital who was diagnosed with RSV and she said that she'd wanted that to be a bright spot. And that was the only way that she knew how to communicate that something good was happening in her life and to make that emotional connection with other people because that's the platform through which she expresses her emotions. I will say as a disclaimer that Demi claims that later her and Whitney got a mental health

ketamine infusion treatment together. And during that time, Whitney revealed to her that she had made the TikTok for clout. Oh my God. When you texted me about Demi earlier today, I thought you meant Demi Lovato. Demi. It's not Demi. It's not Demi. It's Demi.

I was like, of course Demi Lovato is getting ketamine infusion treatments with the past of A Secret Life of Mormon Wives. That makes perfect sense. No, Demi is a very, that's like her thing on her little fact that she's an informant for ketamine treatment for like depression and mental health issues. She's a very large advocate for it. Okay. Slay. No alcohol, but the ketamine treatments are I mean, the arbitrariness, like it's enough to make you go insane. And this is the classic quality of cult is that like the rules change all the time. The rules do not make sense. You just have to trust in the leaders to know what's best. Yes, you just have to trust and you just have to conform. And

a lot of these standards that these women are conforming to, especially the phenotypical ones that you talk girls and whatnot are all very Eurocentric, which is interesting. Anything surrounding that notion is kind of very lightly glossed over in the show. Like Layla is the only black member of the ensemble and she mentions it pretty briefly and essentially says that she tries not to let racism get her down and she tries to ignore it and then moves on from it. And I wish that they had touched on that more and I wish I wish the show had investigated it more. But I do think it's really reflective of the fact that this community and this group of women don't really have these discussions

with each other because at the end of the day they're friends for content. Another moment in the show that really highlighted the disparity is Jen Affleck, the only one whom they consistently refer to by first and last name because her last name is Affleck. She says that her mom is a cleaning lady in the same hospital where her husband's father is a heart surgeon. And knowing what we now know about their marriage, that's 50 types of infuriating. So Jen Affleck, who is married to Zach Affleck, second cousin, I want to say, of Ben Affleck, allegedly. Their marriage is a large hot topic throughout the show because Jen is largely regarded as being the most Mormon one in the group, the one that abides

the most by the Mormon rules, and the other women in this group definitely like to give her shit for that. But there is a moment in the show where they all go to Vegas for Layla's birthday and Jessie surprises them with a trip to Chippendales and they go backstage to oil up the dancers before they go on stage. Jen is like really uncomfortable with this and tells her husband what's happening. Her husband who is gambling with money that Jen has given him essentially becomes irate, forces her to get an Uber at 2 a.m to leave this event and it's a whole thing. Essentially, their relationship is really controlling and unhealthy and to see her say that her mom is a cleaning lady in the same hospital where

her husband's dad is a heart surgeon, it feels like Jen is smiling through a lot of different forms of oppression from a lot of different angles. And it's really sad to see that a lot of them are kind of glossed over in the same way. Yeah, it kind of seems like Mormonism can't function without toxic positivity, but you can't be a healthy person in healthy relationships if you don't even have the vocabulary, much less the permission to discuss your pain.

Yes, exactly. Okay, moving down the line of culty characteristics, we simply must unpack. We got to talk about the us versus them dynamics that emerge from this clash of social media standards and Mormonism standards. There is just so many different types of putting people into boxes going on. There's so much shame happening. The girlies are being judged for drinking. The girlies are being judged for not drinking. The girlies are being judged for being too Mormon or for not being Mormon enough or for

just different things that they've done to each other and who's invited to this and who's invited to that. It's a lot of shame. There is also a lot of shame. There's also a lot of power play. I think there's a lot of trepidatious waters nowadays when it comes to the ownership of trends. Trends and social media concepts and all of these just like loose, we're all participating in these behaviors, so who's to say where this falls back to anthropologically, like who created this? It seems as though Taylor and Whitney in large part feel like the other girls owe them for creating MomTalk or have some kind of obligation to maintaining those

friendships because of the success of MomTalk as a group, but because of the standards that arise within Mormonism and the inter-fighting in terms of Mormon standards, it's a lot of like, well, we don't feel like we owe you anything. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So every episode it almost feels as though there is a different Mormon conflict or social media conflict and based on whichever of those variables is not currently the one in play, the people will align themselves on either side of an issue. And that is a majority of the show. They even group themselves into saints and sinners,

and it's like a joking little thing throughout the majority of the show. But that's really what it is, and that's what it feels like it is on TikTok as well. Yeah. God, just the, like, moral whiplash they're experiencing at all times, how can you grow? Like, how can you lead any semblance of an authentic life when you're being pulled into

such opposite directions at all time and like negotiating for power through those things sounds unpleasant. So this leads me to want to discuss the general social media context by which Mormon mom talk is backdroped. And that has to do with trad whiffism. I like it. I like pronouncing it that way. So one of the reasons why Mormon mom talk has garnered more attention than it may be otherwise would is because of its proximity to the trad

wave trend and the trad way of hullabaloo, the tradwife obsession, which we are full participants in. These girls, they are, I mean, they're stay at home girlfriends. I mean, they are tradwives. They're the sort of like Mormon flavor, which tastes a lot like strawberry and Dr. Dye and pepper, but they are ultimately tradwives and both the sort of like religion and scandal levels that are generally associated with tradwifism are just maxed out on Mormon mom talk because like Mormonism is already freaky. And like this occurs to me every time I'm like really tasked with engaging with

Mormonism or like looking at it in the eye. I'm like, it is so fucking freaky. Like, it's just weird. Like, oh, and I say that like cheekily. I say it with respect for the individuals who were raised in it, but like it's a wag a doodle dandy. Like, no, and so you've got the Mormonism wackiness on one side, which part of the Mormon wackiness is the reason why we all know about it. Like they do have an aesthetic sensibility to them.

Like I got so many compliments on the fucking tinsel from like really cool people. Someone stopped me in the coffee shop and was like, where did you get that done? And I was like at the secret lives of Mormon wives' lunch parties. And so like on one side you've got the Mormon wackadoodliness. On the other side, you've got this like swinger pseudo scandal. It's just like TikTok cotton candy. Yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum. Yes.

I do feel like some of the more serious controversies of Mormonism can get lost in the scandal of the TikTok-y salaciousness though. And I do think the show is kind of highlighting a lot of those things in people where long-time viewers of these TikTok pages are realizing how impactful the Mormon aspect of these influencers is on their lives. One of the Mormon mommies, Michaela, she married and had a baby by her husband when she was a high school sophomore and he was a college senior. She was 16 and he was like in his early 20s and that's not really touched on deeply or looked out as anything weird.

It isn't passing but not largely. Again, I want to recall to Jen Affleck and Zach Affleck's relationship. A lot of these dangerous Troutwife dynamics are reflected in Mormon mom talk. It's just not really highlighted because it's much more interesting to talk about all of the mom talk stuff. Yeah, I think like one of the sort of cheeky, would you rather questions that we posed to the cast members at the party was we were asking them to choose between spending time with the cast of Sister Wives and the cast of the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. And granted, the Sister

Wives universe is really dark these days, but they were so eager to engage with the real housewives. Secular culture. Yes, and that's very clear in the treatment of the show. Like there was, I think, maybe a missed opportunity to interrogate some of these much realer controversies that you're naming or much realer power dynamics that you're naming.

And yet that was all kind of pushed by the wayside in favor of the Real Housewives treatment to reality TV. Which is not as interesting to me personally, but maybe ultimately better for views and ratings. Who fucking knows? Alrighty, our next cult-y category of influence is the cult of content creation, which is kind of what I was just touching on. Some behaviors that are present in this cult of content creation are all of just kind of the friendships these women have with each other anyway.

Whitney says it at one point, and I think she's kind of posed as the villain for saying it, but I do believe it's a valid question, is why are we all friends? We all clearly fall so differently on the Mormon spectrum and so differently just morally and our values don't really align, so why are we friends? And at the end of the day, it's mom talk. For the better or for worse, that's hashtag mom talk. These friendships are very conditional. They are all predicated on TikTok clout and all of these rules that change every day and micro trends and rituals and all of this jazz.

And you really do get so lost in the sauce of content creation, hence Whitney and her TikTok with her baby, like I mentioned earlier. The other largest example of this is definitely episode two of the show. Half of the episode is body cam footage from the officer that arrested Taylor Paul for domestic violence. And that's just like, oh, ha ha, this is on our Hulu reality show.

That was a really odd moment for me personally to see. Yeah, it is such a sort of disconcerting, extreme example of everything is content. It's like this is a person going through something so harrowing. I mean, my partner Casey was kind of like watching the show out of one eye on the other side of the room. And he was like, what the fuck is going on? Like this looks like alcoholism.

This looks like rock bottom. Like this looks like someone in need of help. I mean, I guess this is just like the exploitative nature of reality TV in general, because like you're watching someone go through something that like a cult pushed them into and that no one should have to go through. Okay, I just before we get into our verdict, I just have to take a special moment to talk about some of my favorite soundbites from mom talk discourse and the show because the culty language is off the charts and I live for it and I swear to God I would tattoo one of these sayings on my ass. So the culture clash of like social media and Mormonism was obvious nowhere more than the

language that these mom talkers were using. I love the Utah accent. It's so subtle, but unique. Like they would pronounce the word healing, healing. Yeah. Like it's so simple. I like listening to it. I find it fascinating. It must be a product of the geography. Salt Lake City is basically in a bowl surrounded by mountains. And so they've got their own little bowl dialect. But the pronunciation is not even what I'm talking about. I wanna highlight some phrases in the show

that I feel like really represent the cognitive dissonance that is so present in this cult. At one point, someone says something along the lines of like, oh my God, I don't wanna be like excommunicated. It's just this like modern day, sort of like Valley girl speak, juxtaposes sort of like all of the brimstone and hellfire links in the Book of Mormon.

It's just like, whoa. Someone describes social media as the biggest blessing in their life, as if God bequeathed them with TikTok. I don't know if someone said this or if this was just the vibe, but there's a whole scene about whether or not to do a vibrator-sponsored ad.

And so there's this discussion of whether or not to spread the good word about vibrators. And then of course, there is that TikTok sound effect that really stuck and became like the tagline, the mantra, the proverb of the show, which was please Lord make me the biggest star the world has ever known. Please Lord make me the biggest star the world has ever known so that I make it the far away from this place. known. And that marriage of fame pursuit and godly pursuit is just something I'll never not be fascinated with. It's intriguing. So I have to ask you, Reese, why do you think the Cult of Mormon mom talk is worthy of discussion?

Not just to like ogle members of this specific niche, but to like almost convey a public service announcement. Like, why is this worth talking about? I think this is worth talking about because content creation has reached a really interesting place where the content you release is not just about the content itself but a lot of it is rooted in the psychology of the viewer and that's considered a lot more in the production of content before it's made so we have things like rage bait, like content solely engineered to anger people content is not just for enjoyment and education anymore there's like a lot of different motives at play and I think people are really confused about the motives of Mob Talk because these women seem really

confused about the motives of Mormonism and about the motives of social media. So it all just becomes this big question of what are you getting at and nobody really knows. But we're the people whom the content is being made for. So I think we feel an entitlement to that knowledge. Yeah. And it's weird too, because I'm not on TikTok, which feels really good, but from what I've heard, you're served content algorithmically.

So unless you're going way out of your way to block every last Mormon mom talker, if you're in our corner of the internet, these women may very well show up on your for you page. So it's not as easy as posing the question of like, is it ethical to continue watching say 19 kids and counting if you believe that these cast members are being exploited. It's Tik Tok. So like you don't have a choice. The Tik Tok in itself is culty because you don't have a choice

about what you're being served. You don't have a choice about who's influencing you. It's just being served to you based on a machine making predictions about what you want to see. What's a more and more and more extreme version of what you already want to see. And I think this is an embodiment of that. It's like, how do we ethically consume TikTok content?

Is that even a worthwhile question to ask? Should we buy Macy's prenatal gummies or not? It's tough. It's tough. Yeah. The nature and motives of content creation are becoming increasingly confusing and opaque and weird and corrupt. Which is why I actually, I don't like it when people call this podcast content. I don't like it when people call my writing content because- No, it feels so manufactured and capitalism brained. I don't like it. Yeah. And I guess this conversation is illuminating why.'s because like, I guess nowadays there's this undertone that content isn't art, but is this podcast art?

Content is made for the sake of being consumed and not because it has something to say. Yes. Yes. And we are out here making the show no matter what anyone says. Ain't that the truth? And with that, I want to ask you, Reese, the ultimate sounds like a cult question. Out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. Which cult category do you think the cult of Mormon mom talk falls into?

I think the cult of Mormon mom talk. I think it's a watch your back. Elaborate please. I think it's a watch your back because as a viewer it's really harmless, but I think there are real life consequences for these women. Like staying in marriages you don't want to be in. So you can fund your husband's medical school with your TikToks. I think it's tough because the other thing that makes this cultie is that it is a reaction

to Mormonism. It is. And you can't knock the motives. I mean, we're discussing like that the motives are really hazy But one motive I think we can agree on is that like they needed an outlet Mormonism is so imprisoning for women a lot of the time and This was like something to do to break out of that within the confines of what was allowed in theory And so like that exercise should be okay. But because

these women lack so many tools necessary to like engage in healthy community, of course, it spun into something culty and it spun into a scandal. It's not even really a scandal. It's like, this is this is why I take issue with it. I kind of feel weird about even doing this episode and going to that event, like really, when I'm like a little more human about it, I'm like, why are we watching it? Why is this something that the public needs to look at? These are just these like dysfunctional

private relationships. And I know that like we live in capitalism and Hollywood does what Hollywood does. And you know, it optioned some article and developed it into a show and people are watching it and they're throwing parties and it's all hunky dory and whatever. But there's something wrong with all of this and it's not respectful and their role in being like, yeah, we want to be a part of this. We want to be on reality TV. It's like I question

it because it's like, who is taking care of these women? That's what I want to ask. Who is taking care of these women? It's not fucking Hulu. It's like not the Mormon church. It's not their husbands most of the time. A lot of the times it's not their husbands. It's not their followers and it's not each other.

It's supposed to be each other and it's not. So I guess that is like the best way of putting it is like, I feel weird because I don't know who's taking care of them. Valid. And that's your verdict? I guess it's a watch your back against a scrim of get the fuck out. That's kind of how I feel like there are aspects of it that fall into all three categories, which makes it really difficult. Yeah. All right. Well, you know, uncertainty is okay.

Yeah. Even on sounds like a cult. Get a drink of dirty soda and go get some hair tinsel in the celestial kingdom and forget about it. Yeah, exactly. Well, Rhys, wow. I feel grateful and hashtag blessed to have gotten to record this episode with you. That is our show.

Thank you so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Sounds Like a Cult is hosted and produced by Amanda Montell and edited by Jordan Moore of the Podcabin. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. This episode was co-hosted and co-produced by Reese Oliver.

Thank you as well to Katie Epperson and to our partner All Things Comedy. And if you like the show, please feel free to check out my books, Word Slut, A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and The Age of Magical Overthinking, overthinking notes on modern irrationality. If you're a fan of Sounds Like a Cult, I'd really appreciate it if you would leave a rating and review on Spotify or Apple podcasts. you