Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of The Boy Scouts

Episode Date: February 7, 2023

Allegations of right-wing dogma, unquestioned power dynamics, charismatic leaders, freaky rituals, and physical abuse... are we talking about a serious cult or the Boy Scouts of America? Potato, po-tah-toe? That's the question on the docket this week, as Amanda and Isa dissect this prestigious but potentially sinister after-school organization for all-American boys. To support Sounds Like A Cult on Patreon, keep up with our live show dates, see Isa's live comedy, buy a copy of Amanda's book Cultish, or visit our website, click here! Thank you to our sponsor, ZocDoc! Go to Zocdoc.com/CULT and download the Zocdoc app for FREE.

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are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable facts. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. This is Jasmine calling from Arizona, and I think the cultiest thing about the Boy Scouts is definitely their ranking system and the names that they give to those ranks, like the star, the life, the eagle, and they even have an honor society called the Order of the Arrow. Hey, I'm Mike. I live in Texas. I think at its root, the cultiest part is some troops have extremely involved adult leaders

that may use their leadership position to stroke their power hungry ego. Hey, this is Eric from New York, and the reason that I think that Boy Scouts is a little culty is because of the Order of the Arrow, which is the Boy Scout essential honor society. If you're selected, you get sent on a camping trip where the first night you're marched out with a group of kids you don't know, you have to sleep under the stars on top of a tarp, and with only a tarp covering you. For the rest of the weekend, you also have to do a vow of silence, and your given strikes if you speak.

This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Issa Medina, and I'm a comedian touring all over the country. And I'm Amanda Montell, author of the book Cultish the Language of Fanaticism. Every week on our show, we discuss a different group or guru that puts the cult in culture, from the troubled teen industry to Trader Joe's, to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? You know what's a question that I've like literally never asked you on this entire podcast? What?

How are you and how was your weekend? Oh my gosh, thank you for asking. Well, as we both know, I'm exhausted. I know you're exhausted, but I had a really fun weekend. I actually just did my two first live stand-up comedy shows, and so many culties showed up, and we did the chant together, and I got to hear amazing recommendations of episodes that they want us to do, and it was so cool meeting everyone in person.

What'd they say? What were some of their suggestions? Well, one of them was actually Boy Scouts, which we're going to talk about today. Someone suggested Starbucks, which we've already recorded. We and the culties are on the same wavelength, so to speak. It's funny because a lot of the times when people make a recommendation, I'm like, it's on our list. Like, don't you worry.

Well, our list does go to the end of 2025 for the record. We're on it, y'all. The number of cults in this culture. Yeah. One that we actually haven't, I don't think have written down, or maybe we have that I got was Model UN. Oh, yeah, or also another one was the cult of ballroom dancing, and then I thought that would be great because you're super into your dancing thing now.

Yeah, line dancing. Yeah. Oh my god, line dancing. It's kind of the opposite of ballroom dancing because I feel like ballroom dancers are so talented and have such incredible flexibility and coordination, and line dancing is just dancing for people who cannot dance. Yeah, that's true. And the thing about the ballroom dancers that the listener told me was that

when you start as a little kid, it's a lot of times the women are fetishized by adult men. Yes. They want to dance with young, little, small women, and it's very weird. It is really creepy to watch adults project these gender stereotypical constructions onto little children, which actually relates perfectly to our subject today. When you said the chant, the culties, and you did the chant, clarify what that means. It's not a secret.

Oh, yeah. We don't have a secret chant. We just did a call and response. I said, stay culty, and everyone was like, but not too culty. So cute. And it was really cute. When you texted me that video, I was like, did you get chills? Did it feel good?

I would love to even just hear about a positive emotion. Yeah, no. It was amazing. But also, I blackened out of my stand-up experiences, and I ended up staying on stage for 45 minutes. And so I was like, where am I? What's happening? Oh, I completely understand.

And I'm glad you put it that way, because I too fly out of my body and disassociate, and I describe it as blacking out whenever I do a speaking engagement or an interview. I know. I wish you'd been in town for the Saturday one, but you were out of town. I know. I told, I was like, Amanda would be here if she was in town.

And everyone was like, oh. I know. But I was doing a culty event too. Yeah. And I want to tell you about it because. Yeah, how was it? It was great. So I was speaking at a conference in DC called the rights and religions forum.

It was a different vibe than your weekend. Yeah, I'm like stand-up comedy, rights and religion. Yes. No, it was a conference for people who grew up in and left extremely controlling, insular, abusive, cultish religions. So I sat right next to an F. An F'd up person. They were all varying degrees of broken up.

No, I'm kidding. They were lovely. They were so eloquent and so inspiring, but I sat right next to an ex fundamentalist Mormon. There were ex Amish, ex evangelicals, and. Wow. It was just like really horrifying, but also really fascinating to hear about these people who grew up in the United States, but in these really isolated controlling communities where

they grew up without bodily autonomy, without a sense of choice, without literacy. Like some of these groups, like in the Amish community, their first language is a dead language. It's like a form of Dutch that is not spoken anywhere else. That's the ultimate red flag because how do you get out exactly if you can't even speak the language of the groups outside of it? Exactly. And when nobody on the outside speaks that language,

their Bibles are in high German, so they learn high German. And in adulthood, they just lack a lot of literacy and language skills that could really help them. And these are people who some of them were queer women who were coerced into marriage and coerced into a really medieval form of domesticity and motherhood, who at a point were like, if I don't get out, I will die. Like I'm so unable to be myself, I will die. You got into the weeds pretty quickly, but I was about to say, I feel like it would be really fun and interesting to interview an Amish person.

But it would be really dark. I know, but it was like, I was riveted. But I wanted to say that despite the fact that the subject matter of this conference was pretty dark, there were a bunch of attendees who grew up in communities like this, who listened to the podcast, who listened to Sounds Like a Call. Oh yeah, they do, especially if they're queer. That's something I found out in San Francisco. A lot of the audience was like queer women.

And I was like, oh my god, okay, communities. Yeah, but it was really interesting to hear from them because they were talking about how they appreciate this show not only for the comic relief, but also because of our fundamental thesis that cultishness is everywhere and nobody is above it. And you don't have to be stupid and naive and desperate to take years and years and years to get out of a group like that. Yeah, the fact that all the groups that we cover are like so relatable

really doubles down on that, that anything can be a cult. Also, it is funny that you mentioned that, that it's like, we kind of do try to steer away from like the deep, deep GTFO level cults. That was a question I got at the show from my literal best friend, Patrick, who you've met. He's been in the room with us recording. I did like a little Q&A and he asked like the most thorough questions. I was like, Patrick, I'm literally staying with you. It's so cute.

No, some of my closest friends are fanatical listeners of the pod. I'm like, aren't you sick of me? Yeah, exactly. And he was like, would you ever cover like a more actual cult like Scientology? And I was like, okay, you obviously just don't get our vibe. And it was funny that I said that on stage because I could see everyone's face immediately like nodding and agreeing with me. All the people who were there from fans of the podcast, they were like,

yeah, we get it. Like that's why you don't cover those groups because that's just not our vibe. Every once in a while, as you know, and I know, we do cover like a darker GTFO level group, but like we try and keep it light and fun. And it also has to have a tie to the contemporary zeitgeist. But that doesn't mean that we don't touch on the darker groups. Like we're constantly drawing parallels to Scientology and to Jonestown and to Heaven's Gate.

And I know about those groups. I wrote about them in my book. But our whole idea is to write about, I mean, it's our tagline. We cover the cults we all follow to show how cultishness shows up in places you might not think to look. And speaking of, I feel like we always cover a lot of the times we cover like women led organizations or like women joined organizations. And that's why today we had the chance, but we're going to go with the Boy Scouts.

The Boy Scouts. We'll do Girl Scouts eventually, but we wanted to do the Boy Scouts first. And I thought it was funny when we put out our notice for listener Collins. Thank you to everyone who sent them in. Someone commented and was like, you know, I really just encourage you to be very, very careful with this topic because it's not like the other topics you cover on your show like Trader Joe's and Disney Adults. You know, this is very serious.

And I thought that was interesting. I mean, my intuitive response to that comment was a little salty because I was like, we have covered like really dark groups on this show actually. Like we've covered the Troubled Teen Industry and multi-level marketing and Jared Leto. It just goes to show how everyone relates to a different cult on a different level. It's true. But I also, you know, my more compassionate alter ego looked at that comment and was like, you know what this is really getting at?

It's that the Boy Scouts looks so twee and innocent on the outside because it's a bunch of kids and these adorable little Wes Anderson-y looking outfits. But in our opinion, it's actually so creepy and cult-y. And that's what makes it the perfect sounds like a cult candidate. Yeah. And I'm excited to talk about it. I mean, there's just so much in our favorite word, zeitgeist that talks about the Boy Scouts. They literally bring children in at such a young age and then they teach them scout code,

you know, how to camp, how to survive in the wilderness. And from there, just about everything they'll do after from making friends to choosing hobbies is guided by that code. It's so true, you know, cults by definition offer this sense of structure and guidelines by which to live your life, they create this order that makes you feel like you're a part of something that makes sense. And they tend to target either those who are spiritually seeking and feel a little bit lost as adults or those who are vulnerable simply because they're very, very young.

Yeah. And you know what's funny about Boy Scouts is I feel like whenever I have like a moment or like I go camping with friends or I'm hanging out with friends and then like one of my guy friends is like, oh, I can do that. I learned it in Boy Scouts. I'm never surprised at who said that. You know what I mean? Why?

Because they're like a little bit straight-laced, a little bit straight-laced, a little bit nerdy, like follow the rules. It also goes to show who would proudly say that because I probably have guy friends who have been in Boy Scouts, but they won't mention it. They have an appropriate amount of shame. I'm not going to drop that I was in a sorority casually, you know, because I'm not like proud of it, but like whoever is dropping that they were in Boy Scouts proudly is like the kind of guy who like went on to get all of the awards.

Oh my god, yes. Valedictorian vibes, maybe went to an Ivy League school vibes, perhaps went on to work in corporate America, which is just Boy Scouts all grown up vibes. I'll talk about it a little bit more in depth, but like similar to fraternities, Boy Scouts is very much this thing that like it follows you along if you go into politics or if you go into law and like you see sprinklings of the culture and the cult in our society at large. Oh, and that has so much to do with its origins. Hi, my name is Carly.

I'm from New Jersey. And I think the cultiest thing about the Boy Scouts are the uniforms. I think it's culty from little ones wearing them to dads wearing them. Just gives off weird vibes, especially when they're standing outside the grocery store, like wanting you to buy their popcorn or whatever they support. I don't even know what they support, but I always get weird vibes from them. This is Chris from New York City, and I would have to say the cultiest part about the Boy Scouts in my experience was just the power dynamic and the ego that some of these people have.

There's all the rankings by animal. I don't remember which is higher, but I made it up to either Wolf or Bear. And at one point during a camping trip, the Eagle Scouts decided it would be funny to put me in the food tent and then all leave to a different campsite. So, yeah. My name is Isabel. I'm from Cleveland, Ohio. I think the cultiest thing about the Boy Scouts in particular is the unfortunate cycle of abuse

that happens. I used to work for a law firm and we represented a lot of previous Boy Scouts. And it's just horrible. All the terrible things that happen to these little boys and the lives that they struggle with now because of it. So for the uninitiated, we're going to give a little background info on the Boy Scouts, the Boy Scouts of America and kind of go through a quick timeline from Scouts inception to now. Yeah, because I mean, you probably know what the Boy Scouts is, but like, let's talk details.

You've seen them. They're like the Hare Krishna's. They really are. Chanting through the streets. It's like, we've seen them, but go do that somewhere else. Yeah. And when I picture Boy Scouts, I always picture like this adorable little chubby kid. I know.

He's chubby. I picture the kid from up. Yeah, fully. That is what I picture, but they become adults ultimately with influence, which is what's scary. If they make it, if they're not so traumatized by their Boy Scouts experience. Yeah. So the BSA, Boy Scouts of America is an organization that was created for 11 to 15 year old boys

and it aimed to help them develop good citizenship, chivalrous behavior and skills and various outdoor activities like camping, survival, et cetera. And today they quote unquote provide the nation's foremost youth program in character development and value based leadership training, which helps young people be quote unquote prepared for life. That comes from the BSA website. And if that does not sound like cult marketing, it's like a BB Nixxiom. Allegedly, allegedly, allegedly.

So the Boy Scouts of America, unlike Nixxiom, for the sheer fact that it's huge and very mainstream, it's made up of approximately 2.2 million members. And there are now programs for different ages and they're divided by age. There's Cub Scouts, which is for the little boys. Actually, my brother was briefly a Cub Scout. Oh, I could so see that, right? No Ben, Samanda's brother. No.

No, I mean, my brother and I were so into hobbies. Our parents always at work, so we, you know, I did my theater kid thing and I never wanted to be a Girl Scout though. Did you ever do Girl Scouts? Oh, yeah, I did. You did? Oh my God, that's right. All the way through.

I got my silver award and we can talk about that during the Girl Scouts episode. Oh my God. No, this is so you and so me because I saw those Girl Scouts and I was like, that is some conformist, hierarchical, authority worshiping bullshit. But what is more me than joining Girl Scouts as a kid and then getting uninterested and then in middle school learning that all the cool girls did it and then learning that they had mozzarella sticks at Girl Scouts. And like I went once and I tried Miss Becky's mozzarella sticks.

I'm not even kidding. This is real. And I was like, I'm coming back every week. Those were the, and they were just the Costco mozzarella sticks, but she made them in a way that had me coming back. Yeah, I mean, on this show, we do try to destabilize problematic preconceived notions about why people join cults. And sometimes it's not because you're desperate and lost.

Sometimes it's just because you're hungry. Yeah, it's just the snacks. It's the snacks. Snacks are so powerful. So powerful, the meaning of life. And famously, the Girl Scouts sell them. But that's for another day. For another day, for another day, for another day.

So there are the Cub Scouts, they're the Boy Scouts of America, and that's for a slightly older contingent. And then there are Eagle Scouts. Actually, my grandfather tried to become an Eagle Scout, but his like tyrannical troop leaders wouldn't let him allegedly because he failed this ridiculous hazing test, where in order to like earn his Eagle Scout badge, he had to sleep all night in a graveyard where apparently an axe murderer was wandering around. And I recently told it to a bunk of second graders while camp counseling, and they made

me stop because it was too scary. Oh my gosh. I mean, again, allegedly, but it does remind me of Nixxiom because it's just a badge, you know? Yeah. It's just a badge. And like you're as a child going through this traumatizing experience to get to like the next level.

I know. That's what always really struck me as spooky and off-putting about the Scouts in general is that there's so much unquestioned loyalty involved with pursuing these badges, but it's like who placed value on these badges? Like who is at the top here? Who is controlling what you find valuable? But just to set the stage a little more to know what timeline we're operating in here, the Boy Scouts of America has been around for over 100 years.

It was 1908 when the Boy Scout movement, as they refer to it, was founded by a guy named Lieutenant General Robin S.S. Baden Powell. Say that fucking 10 times fast. Yeah. He was a military guy. And that's why the Boy Scouts feel so militaristic and so hierarchical because it descends from this British military authority figure. Yeah.

And that makes sense. I did literally just Google early 1900s war because I was like, which wars were happening then? World War I, famously 1914, just Googled it. Well, you don't have to feel stupid because American history and even more so world history is taught terribly in this country. So bad. But I think the reason I Googled it was because I had an intuition that something was going on in the time period.

And that kind of does make sense, right? Like the early 1900s was this time for like such deep nationalism in America, in the United Kingdom, in these very colonialist countries that were like finishing up, taking over the world. They were just wrapping up there being problematic moment. Then they continued. Spoiler alert, they continued. Yeah. Not sure if you're aware about America.

Still a problematic place. Yeah. And UK too. And so I think this kind of makes sense. You know, it was this moment of like, oh, like let's induct these children into the cult of our nation of nationalism. And that is what Boy Scouts is. It's how it started.

No, yeah. I mean, fundamentally, it is a Protestant and patriotic organization. The Boy Scouts of America specifically was established in 1910. And the way I see it personally, for the large majority of Boy Scout history, they really perpetuated a super patriarchal, problematic, low-key, abusive masculinity agenda. I mean, there's a reason why the Girl Scouts and the Boy Scouts were bifurcated. What does bifurcated mean? Oh, just like divided in two.

Oh, OK. I wish we'd met before I took the SATs, dude. I would have literally gone to Harvard. The only reason my SAT scores weren't that good is because of the English section. So first, we can't not mention the incredibly culty, militaristic, hierarchical power structure of the Boy Scouts. They have this whole system of troops and specific leadership that varying levels have to report to, you can't skip rank.

So each scout belongs to a patrol, which is just a group of five to 10 members. And each patrol is led by a patrol leader. And that leader is elected by the group. And this kind of structure of democracy can very much lead to popularity politics. So you're not joining a group off the bat that is immediately extremely welcoming. Like there is going to be some politics involved. And it's already a group that you have to do certain acts to get ahead. So that already in nature makes it a little clicky.

It can make it a little toxic. Oh, extremely clicky. I mean, because there are the acts that you have to do to earn your badges and to rise through the ranks that are on the books. And then there are all these very fratty, implicit qualifications to be cool. And that's like literally the basis of this scary story that I tell in my family that my dad told me where my grandfather, in order to be an Eagle Scout, he had to like dig a trench with a stick in his mouth.

And every time he made a noise, they put a notch in the stick. And like it was just giving abuse the whole time. Child labor and abuse. And also it's just the ranking is so clearly culty. I mean, each patrol, that group of five to 10 people belongs to a troop, which is then run by a senior patrol leader, who again is someone who's elected by the troop. And then each troop is supported by a troop committee, a group of volunteers who are headed by a troop committee chairman.

So it also is very reflective of the politics that we have in the House and the Senate. And like, I can so see how there is a pipeline from Boy Scouts directly to politics, because this structure is so in your system. And there are all these really formalized ranks in Boy Scout. There's Scout, Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, Life, Eagle. And it's not just that you naturally progress on to the next level. It's when a scout thinks that they're ready to move up the rank. They have to meet with a scout master to review their progress.

Dude, it sounds so much like Nixxiom, like you have to meet with someone to review your progress. They have to appear before a board for review. And then six officials will either approve or deny their advancement. This is Boy Scouts that we're talking about. Absolutely. I know. And I can completely see why this organization and why this structure resonates and has resonated throughout the past century, because we're in a time of extremely fast-moving technological progress.

And the Boy Scouts offers something that's really reliable. It's worked the same way this whole time. And it makes you feel connected to nature and connected to the physical world. And I think that could grant people a lot of comfort. Yeah. But I also can see why it was popular in the early 1900s and in the mid-1900s, famously the 1950s, because it provides structure to children in general. This was a time of societal development where women were now getting jobs as well.

They weren't always stay-at-home moms anymore. And so they were putting their kids in more activities. Kids need to remain busy so that parents can work. And America is such a work-oriented country. And so it really makes sense in any time in history. In any time in modern American history. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like nobody was Boy Scouting 10,000 years ago when everybody just had to be a Boy Scout in order to survive. Exactly. You know? Exactly. I mean, I think it really also reflects the American nuclear family value. It really reflects well on your son when he's a Boy Scout. I mean, there's a reason why the term Boy Scout has become a little bit of a diss. Like, okay, Boy Scout.

It shows that you're this goody two-shoes. But in the 50s, you know, the mid-century, that was a compliment. Like, you were reflecting well on your family as this, like, perfect nuclear setup with the Susie homemaker mother and the dad who goes to work in a corporate office. Yeah. And the daughter who's like the sweet little child and son who's a Boy Scout. Yeah. And that tradition also aligns with, like, negative aspects in that, you know,

the Boy Scouts didn't allow women until the late 1960s and they didn't allow gay members until 2014. Yeah. Yeah. So it was this, like, doubling down on, like, toxic masculinity. And I mean, we're going to talk about it worst case scenario situations. But, like, when you don't allow people to be themselves, it can create a space for power abuse. I mean, that's the conformity aspect that I've always found so creepy.

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Go to SockDoc.com slash Colt and download the SockDoc app for free. Then find and book a top rated doctor today. Many are available within 24 hours. That's SockDoc.com slash Colt, SockDoc.com slash Colt. This is Jasmine calling from Arizona, and I think the cultiest thing about the Boy Scouts is definitely the Mormon Church's heavy involvement in it. Young men are basically required to participate and expected to get their Eagle Scout before going on a mission.

My boyfriend was not allowed to get his driver's license until he got his Eagle. Hey, my name's Kat, and I work for the Boy Scouts for four years as one of the only at-that-time female counselors. And there are so many things that are very culty about the Boy Scouts, and I don't know if I ever will have time to list all of them as someone who was really ingrained in the organization for so long. But the cultiest thing about the Boy Scouts is probably everything, the fact that they really move their organization based on where their funding is going

and how they curtail their programs to anti-indigenous philosophies in a way that they think is like cultivating nature. But in reality, it's just like a gross perpetuation of colonial ethics, rather than being a decolonial construction of everything that they ought to be doing. And I really could talk about this forever. Hi, my name is Katie, and I'm calling in from Chicago. I have an older brother who's a Boy Scout, and I think the cultiest thing I witnessed about Boy Scouts

was just how much effort and how many hoops you have to jump through to prove yourself of even being not even worthy of just getting those next titles, but worthy of working towards those titles. And a lot of your experience really comes down to your scout master and how much they like you, how willing they are to work with you in terms of whether or not you're even going to be successful. Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. Who really runs the Boy Scouts?

I still don't know to this day, and I'm looking at a research document as we speak. You know what I mean? It's kind of confusing. It's operated by local chartering organizations, such as religious institutions or different local clubs, civic associations, educational organizations. So each local chartering scout group

is linked to a local community type of thing? Yeah, because I remember that my brother's Cub Scout days were affiliated with our school, with an after-school program, but there are other sects of the Boy Scouts or communities within the Boy Scouts that are connected with churches. So they have these explicit religious associations. Yeah, again, not the same thing, but with Girl Scouts whenever we did an event or something,

I remember it was at a local church. A church. So that was what it was connected through for me. And we have to talk about the religious undertones or overtones to Boy Scouts that have made it such an inhospitable place for anyone who isn't a straight white middle to upper middle class boy. The Boy Scouts of America explicitly maintains, and I quote, that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen

without recognizing an obligation to God. In 2018, the Boy Scouts of America National Executive Board adopted a resolution stating, whereas these faith-based tenets have been a part of the Boy Scouts of America since it was founded and notwithstanding any changes to the scouting programs, the commitment of the movement to duty to God is unwavering. Oh, so they doubled down on it in modern history.

Oh, yeah. They have reaffirmed their unequivocal commitment to the Declaration of Religious Principle as a fundamental component of the mission of the Boy Scouts of America. So that religious undertone, even if they signal that they're becoming slightly more inclusive, welcoming women, ostensibly welcoming gay young people, they do not claim not to be a Christian organization.

Yeah, I mean, that's bizarre to me. So like, if someone is a non-Christian person, can they join the Boy Scouts? Technically, they can, but to me, the guidelines seem intentionally blurry. Well, I mean, famously, you cannot convince or trick anyone into believing anything metaphysical.

You can only coerce them into professing their belief, and that is unbelievably culty when someone is internally questioning, but they're not allowed to state it. They're not allowed to push back. Let me put it this way. In 2002, a 19-year-old Eagle Scout from Seattle named Daryl Lambert was found to be a non-believer

and was expelled from the Boy Scouts for that reason. So I think their language is intentionally confusing because they do things like expel that boy, Daryl Lambert, who was found to be a non-believer, but then you look at their website and it says that the Boy Scouts of America recognizes the religious element in the training of the members, but it is absolutely non-sectarian

in its attitude towards that religious training. What? But that doesn't make sense because non-sectarian literally means not involving or relating to a specific religious sect or political group, but it's saying it's non-sectarian in its attitude towards religious training. So that literally does not make any sense.

And at the end of the day, the Boy Scouts of America knows that it is operating in a primarily Protestant nation and that is obviously the image that it is going for. And I'll say this, I mean, it's a private organization, it can do whatever it wants, but the Boy Scouts does receive public aid. Yeah, I was just about to say,

they do receive public funding and that's something that inherently confuses me because they went to the Supreme Court in the year 2000, Boy Scouts of America versus Dale and it was ruled that they are a private organization and so they can set rules for themselves, but they still receive public funding at a federal and local level.

So what does that mean and why wasn't that, what? Ah, you know, yeah. Let's also talk about some of the cultiness that this extremely mainstream institution is able to get away with. So, I mean, we know this from talking about it all the time, but participating in rituals bonds you to other members of groups or quote unquote cult

while also making you feel special and important and it does this on a spiritual level as well as like a level that makes you dependent to the group. And in Boy Scouts of America, there's a ritual for each step in the scout's journey, giving them something to look forward to so that they keep on with the program.

I mean, one of the very first things that you have to do when joining the Boy Scouts is participate in a bonding ritual. Each scout has to take an oath and it goes, on my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the scout law to help other people at all times to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake,

and morally straight. Wait, does that mean like, like, what? Wait, that literally is like, I have to be heterosexual? The oath just tells on itself out of the gate. But we fucking love an oath. We love a mantra. It feels so good to stand up with a group of people and all know the same song, the same chant.

Stay culty. But not too culty. Yeah, I mean, definitely. But you're totally right in that this specific oath tells on itself immediately. And it's also worded horribly, I will do my best to do my duty. What?

That doesn't make any sense. So wordy. Where's your copy editor? There are so many culty ceremonies within the Boy Scouts of America. Yeah, I mean, there's the crossover ceremony. It commemorates the transition from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts. There's the rank ceremonies

for when a scout moves up a rank, campfire ceremonies, opening and closing ceremonies for every meeting. So many fucking ceremonies. How is this not like church? And that also speaks to the fact that the Boy Scouts takes up so much of your time. I mean, there's almost no way to be a casual Boy Scout. And that is a culty red flag as well

when you are required to dedicate basically every moment of extracurricular time that you have to the Boy Scout mission and the Boy Scout activities. Yeah, and I feel like something to highlight there is that it depends what kind of leader you have in your troop. Because I mean, I know it's different than Boy Scouts, but I personally was a very casual Girl Scout,

which I think a lot of people think is almost impossible. But I think that was because I had an amazing troop leader, which was just like my best friend's mom. And she was like really low-key about it. An amazing heathen troop leader. Yeah, and it almost was like a safe space. There was like a couple queer girls in our troop. A lot of girls had problems at home

and they would go to like our troop leader's house if they like ever wanted somewhere to like feel safe. So that's what it should be, but that's not always what it is. And think of the vulnerable position that that type of home life might put someone in, you know? It's great that your best friend's mom was such a benevolent dictator. But if someone is having problems at home,

what better person to induct into your cult? Because you're gonna make the false promise that this is a safe space away from your at-home troubles. But also Boy Scouts is culty because there are cults within cults. There is something called the Order of the Arrow, which is a prestigious group within the Boy Scouts. And of course, there are ceremonies out the wazoo

with the Order of the Arrow. They have this culty initiation ritual. And some who've participated in it said that if you share any of the details of this ritual, then you're breaking the oath. But it essentially takes place in two parts. Part one usually takes place at a summer camp, campfire. And there's this Order of the Arrow dance.

A drum team will perform a Native American routine. So gross cultural appropriation. While Order of the Arrow candidates are tapped out from the group, and then they'll bring these Scouts to the front to be recognized by their peers as an example of the best Scouts. And they're then led to a private social gathering.

Part two is this Order of the Arrow weekend, which typically involves camping and working in silence. So a lot of classic cults throughout history have had silencing rules in Heaven's Gate. There was a silencing rule where members couldn't talk in the big mansion that they shared. There was a silencing rule in Jonestown, so this is a pattern.

So at Order of the Arrow, they have to camp in silence, perform work in silence. For an entire weekend, there are punishments if you fail. And that stuff, it's all making sense now because it tracks with this story that is told in my family. The silent stuff is what my grandfather did. That is, I don't, I don't know. Part of me is like, that kind of sounds fun.

Just like as a fun challenge. And also, I have friends who've gone to Southeast Asia and spent time at Monk Monastery. Silent meditation retreats, okay? Yeah, and very cult. But I have heard, as someone who will not shut the fuck up, speaking for that community, I think it does sound nice at some point

to be told to just be quiet, but having the option to not is always nice. I know, it's honestly not even the behavior itself. It's the dogma and it's hiding abuse under the guise of tradition. Yes, exactly. And also, I feel like inherently just at whatever age the Boy Scout is, the fact that they're always so young,

that is just problematic because they're holding these rituals as really high stakes. And at the end of the day, they aren't. And they do need to be reminded of that. Let's talk about worst case scenarios because that's what people are really here for, the tea. People are here for the cult-y ass tea. And I mean, we touched on it a little bit,

but as much as they have started to allow gay members in 2014, in 1999, James Dale was an openly gay assistant scout master and he was expelled from his position for being openly gay and he sued the Boy Scouts of America for that. That's part of what led to the lift on that ban of openly gay members in the early 2010s. But it wasn't until 2015 that they lifted the ban on openly gay people in adult leadership.

So for a while, it was like, okay, if you're a gay kid, fine. They're like, we still have time to convert you. But hi, Keith. Honestly, that probably was their mentality. Yeah, but I'm sure that was part of it. And then the other part of it was the obviously really destructive, oppressive idea that if there are openly gay leaders,

they'll convert the children the wrong way. And it's dangerous to have gay people working for the organization or volunteering. Yeah. You know? So true. And I mean, I think these really strict and toxic rules create an environment for predators to thrive.

Yeah. Isn't it always so ironic how the exact same conservative organizations that are afraid of gay leadership because they'll abuse young people commit the most abuse of young people themselves? Yeah, it's like they're hiding in plain sight. And I don't think this about every person who wants to work with children.

But a lot of the times it's not that teachers or mentors become predators. It's that predators become teachers or mentors because they seek jobs that get them close to children. Ew. I know. Isn't that crazy to think about? It also connects to our Theater Kid episode

because I think specifically a lot of adults who gravitate to the position of theater teacher are people who do seek a certain amount of power that they feel they deserve. And it's easier for them to get it from children. From kids. Yeah, they're not getting that respect in there. Oh, no.

I know. I know. It's the whole chip on their shoulder concept. It's the idea that these very privileged cult leaders from abusive Boy Scout leaders to Keith Ranieri are people who think they deserve a certain amount of power. And they're able to justify so much abuse that they commit because they're like, no, this power deserves to be mine.

So reports from abuseandscouting.com have shown what happens when exclusivity and trust in the organization go too far in a culty direction. Reports have shown that since the founding of the Boy Scouts in the early 20th century, its leaders have kept secret files of thousands of sexual abuse cases committed by leaders and volunteers. These had a name.

They were literally called the perversion files. They began compiling these files in the 1920s. And I think just right off the bat, we highlighted the structure of the Boy Scouts earlier on in this episode. When an organization has so many different levels of hierarchy, that's when really toxic behaviors and powers of abuse can get hidden because there's so many layers

that you really have to dig deep and you almost have to climb the ladder to dismantle them. Yeah, those abusers are able to be protected in the Boy Scouts just like in the military. The reason why they're able to get away with it is because in these organizations, you cannot skip rank. You cannot go above the head of the person who is abusing you. And I can't think of anything cultier than that.

Yeah, so with these hierarchies, people are always going to protect each other and they're going to protect people above them. In 1971, scouting executives admitted to destroying thousands of these perversion files if they were deemed too old or outdated. Like if an abuser was older than 80 years old or likely deceased,

the BSA destroyed the sexual abuser's files, which is so beyond fucked up because just because the abuser was old and about to die doesn't mean that the child who was abused had died. And also, these files were kept a secret for such a long time. Yes, it's not that when the abuser dies, so does the trauma. The trauma is still there.

And it goes to show that the Boy Scouts of America itself, I think, is this larger cult, unlike some of the groups that we sometimes cover on this show, the larger institution is almost second to the individual leaders, like whether they're instructors or certain celebrities within the group have their own sort of cults. But the Boy Scouts of America has so many protocols in place such that the organization is protected no matter what.

Like they will throw other people under the bus. Yeah, it's wild. And something that scares me is the fact that the Boy Scouts is still so predominant in our culture today. I mean, it's kind of like a thalsism too, despite the fact that all these allegations have come to light. Parents still enroll their children in the organization

thinking maybe it's gotten better or maybe it's not as bad as people say. But something that it makes me call back to is like Sarah Edmondson was like, I would just stay away from groups that have been deemed to be toxic. Where there's smoke, there's fire. Yeah, it's like if there's a rumor about a guy

who's a creep, he's probably a creep. And just stay away from him, you know? And look into it. If you so desire, I completely endorse critical thinking and fact checking. But odds are, if you find multiple credible sources in places like The New York Times, that's worthy of trust.

And there are so many extracurricular organizations or just solo activities that can teach you how to fucking build a fire and make friends. Yeah, I mean, the cool thing about the activities that they do in the Boy Scouts is that you really can do them with any group of friends. Yes. There's no like secret transcendent wisdom

that they're keeping on a high shelf. Like you can learn how to tie a cool knot by Googling it. Yeah, YouTube is lit these days. Yeah, you don't have to be in these groups, especially, you know, given the history. I mean, it's out there in 2007, six men in Oregon sued the Boy Scouts of America, claiming that they were abused by an assistant scoutmaster

in the 1980s. The jury got to read the internal abuse records and the plaintiffs were awarded $19 million. Like that is case and point. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. In 2020, recent history, y'all, the Boy Scouts actually declared bankruptcy while facing numerous lawsuits stemming from allegations

of child sexual abuse by some scout leaders. So this has been such a rampant pattern that doesn't feel like a coincidence. You have to question what about the structure of Boy Scouts itself is allowing this type of abuse to thrive. Yeah, and I feel like it's easy for people who have had a positive experience from Boy Scouts to dismiss this,

because again, it's that like grains of truth. Like you are learning good life skills. Maybe if you had a positive experience, you did gain lifelong friendships from the group, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people who had extremely traumatizing and negative experiences. And I feel like this is one of those examples where you really like, in my opinion,

have to dismantle the whole group. Yeah. And if you want something similar to it, start again from scratch from the bottom up. And maybe get your fix from multiple different groups instead of dedicating yourself to one longstanding traditional abuse-ridden organization. I mean, just because some people

might have had a good experience with the Boy Scouts doesn't mean it's not a get-the-fuck-out. There were some people who had a great experience in Jonestown, I interviewed one for my book, and she still admitted readily that it was a get-the-fuck-out. Of course. Yeah, and didn't she say that like, if she could do it again, she still would?

Like it all led her to where she is today. Yeah, no, that was a Heaven's Gate survivor who said sort of like, no regret, whatever. Everybody is going to process their culty trauma a little bit differently and self-justify. It's hard to know how to move forward with grave mistakes that you've made in the past, and we're all going to approach that differently.

But it is important to note that just because someone may have had an anecdotal positive experience with a group doesn't mean it's not a get-the-fuck-out. Hi guys, my name is Anastasia, and I'm from Wisconsin. I think the coldest thing about Boy Scouts is that if you receive your Eagle Scout designation, once you later decide to join the military, you will automatically receive a higher rank

than those who do not. So it really seems like these two things are purposefully connected to indoctrinate young boys into following orders, learning how to do things, learning how to respect your authority, to then later give them this opportunity to automatically become a higher paying rank in the US Army. Hi, I'm Taylor from Virginia,

and the thing that I think is the cultiest about the Boy Scouts is just the fact that they have this dynamic that just seems really reminiscent of Catholic priests and Paul boys. But do you know what I mean? Like there's definitely something there. I just, I don't necessarily know the exact comparison,

but that is the vibe I get. Hey, my name's Chloe, and I'm from Atlanta, Georgia, and the thing that I always found cultiest about Boy Scouts was that there's this second tier group called Venture Crew, and it's always been co-ed so girls can always join, but no one ever knew about it because you only found out about it if you came from a Boy Scout-y family,

and they kind of passed this secret social club on to you by word of mouth, so you knew to join. And even then, they didn't learn the same kinds of cool things that Boy Scouts learned in that club. So Issa, out of the three cult categories, live your life. Watch your back, and get the fuck out. What do you think about the cult of the Boy Scouts? Going into this episode, I think I was gonna say

it's a watch your back, but after going through all of the nitty gritty details, I think it's a get the fuck out. I know, I think that too. I have the same journey as you. I mean, everything from the Native American culturally appropriative rituals and dances to the silencing tactics to the fucking conformist uniforms to the religious pipeline to the sexual assault.

Yeah, no, like, no, no. It's a get the fuck out. Clearly, it's a hard get the fuck out. It's a hard get the fuck out. And again, that doesn't mean that you can't have your children join another type of organization that teaches them outdoor skills, but maybe with a better structure and less toxic history, but this specific organization feels very get the fuck out.

Totally, yeah, go camping, touch grass, be in the woods, tie knots, put on pins, but not with the Boy Scouts. Not with the Boy Scouts. It's been pretty clearly outlined. Yeah, but at the end of the day, I still do really like Moonrise Kingdom, Wes Anderson. I am a twi bitch at the end of the day. The Wes Anderson movie about the Boy Scout type troop.

I forget whether it was the Boy Scouts or not. I mean, up is my favorite movie. And there's a little Boy Scout in that movie. And I love that little chubby kid. I know they did do something right with the aesthetic. Like it is a cute little vibe. It's like charm collecting. We'll also put a uniform on any kid.

It's adorable. No, you're right. You're right. Well, that's our show. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back with a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty, but not too culty. Sounds like a cult is created, hosted and produced by Issa Medina and Amanda Montell.

Our research and social media assistant is Noemi Griffin. Our theme music is by Casey Colb. This episode was edited and mixed by Jordan Moore of the Podcabin. To follow the podcast on socials, you can find us at Sounds Like a Cult Pod. And Issa here to follow me on socials and see you where I perform and get tickets to all of my live shows. You can follow me on Instagram at Issa Medina, ISAA, M-U-D-I-N-A-A.

And Amanda here. You can feel free to find me on Instagram at Amanda underscore Montell and check out my books. Cultish the language of fanaticism and words let a feminist guide to taking back the English language. We also have a Patreon and we'd appreciate your support there. If you'd like, it's patreon.com slash sounds like a cult. And if you like our show,

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