Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 1: Fearne Cotton

Episode Date: July 6, 2020

In the first episode of the series, Sophie talks sleep deprivation, coping with anxiety and tidying up other people's houses with Fearne Cotton. In-amongst running her festival, writing books, presenting and other projects, Fearne is also mother to two children and step-mother to two more. Sophie and Fearne chat about how she finds the time to get it all done. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hello, how are you? I am recording this from my kitchen and I'm going to make myself a cup of tea while I talk to you about my first podcast episode. What strange times we are living in. I started recording the podcast just before lockdown. I think it was maybe a fortnight before.

before lockdown I think it was maybe a fortnight before um and it's funny to think back to that time now because we sort of knew that uh things were probably not going to stay as they were but I remember when I went around to chat to Fern Cotton um who is the first person in the podcast series and I remember when I went around to her house and we had this funny thing of do we shake hands do we hug and we actually still hugged because at that point, there wasn't big signs saying don't hug everybody. It was kind of peripheral vision. And then things went very fast, didn't they? From being, you know, normal life to lockdown life.

So now here I stand in my kitchen. And truth be told, as is befittingly sort of ironic for someone who's recording a podcast about how you make your work life and your home life mix, I've really struggled to get very much work done at all. I think I went into a sort of paralysis of not really finding I could be very creative or motivated. And anyway, I wanted to get on and release the podcast because even though currently everybody's work life home life has gone all topsy-turvy we will get back to normal one day and anyway it's it's still fascinating to me how people are making things work and actually

I caught up with Fern at this time just to see how she's getting on and if she's managing to get work done and of course impressively enough she is which has actually motivated me to get on with what I'm doing too um the kettle is boiled so uh yes I wanted to speak to Fern you all know Fern Cotton she is a a broadcaster, but also innovator. She has her amazing Happy Place podcast that she's been doing for some time. I think it's maybe reached 70 episodes. She has started running a festival called the Happy Place Festival.

She is a yoga enthusiast and incredibly fit. She's very creative. She does her drawings and has put them into books all about how to keep calm and happy and manage your mental health as well as still broadcasting. So there was a lot to talk about with her. She's raising her,

she has two of her own children, two stepchildren. If you are listening to this podcast and you have your own small people in earshot, there are a couple of rude words nothing too scary um i don't think i think there might be one f word and the word for boobs that starts with a t uh that's a bit ruder um so you're if you have small people maybe just um keep the volume down a little bit but um I love talking to her she's always been incredibly candid and honest about um how she finds her sort of sleep deprivation

with small people alongside all her work um so that's kind of where we started and when we have finished the podcast chat I will show you the bit where she's talking about how she's getting on now and how she's finding her lockdown living. Anyway, my kettle is boiled. My tea is brewing. So maybe pour yourself a cup and this is my conversation with Fern Cotton.

Thank you so much for listening. well i should probably start by saying um as befits someone who wanted to talk about being a working mother um i had a really bad night's sleep with my one-year-old last night so i don't know if you have this when you i suppose you're sort of out of the stage of having kids that wake in the no i'm not you're not oh my goodness I thought maybe oh no I don't know what's going on I guess you have these kind of phases that they go through yeah and honey was a bad honey's four rex is seven honey was a bad sleeper for a most of last year and then naturally I think she's had a growth spurt and she is just a sleeping machine she'll lie in she's really snoozy and dozy rex was an amazing sleeper and then i'm just

gonna tell the true story even if it annoys my mum he went to my mum's she showed him an alien video on youtube because she's obsessed with aliens she's like absolutely ufo freak okay and it scared the hell out of him. And now, well, we went through a really bad phase at Christmas. He was waking up like every hour, freaking out. Oh, no. And since we've done a kind of, we've gone back to like sleep training, like it's a newborn baby. I mean, he's seven years old.

He's this huge, tall, lanky guy. And we're doing newborn sleep training. But we've now got it down to one wake a night or no wakes a night. So we're coming out of it, but we've had three months of hell. Oh God, I'm so sorry. And I really relate.

Don't be sorry to me. You've got five kids. I mean, you don't ever need to apologise to me. It's just the sleep thing is crazy. It is. So when I woke up this, well, in the middle of the night, I was, all you do is think about

all the things you've got to do the next day and how much harder they're going to be and how much less successful they're going to be. And, you know, Mickey's one, so he is going to wake sometimes. And actually, he was a terrible sleeper for the first year. And I finally got him sleeping quite well. But I think he just likes to chuck in these nights just to keep me on my toes. Every once in a while, I'll have a 5.30 wake up, and that and that'd be the day begun or last week we had one where he just was crying in the night and the only way he could sleep was by me sitting up in a chair and that was between 3 30

and 6 a.m when i just no it's not and you want to wear a little placard for the rest of the day saying just please be a bit gentle with me just don don't come near me. I can hardly sleep. Stay away. I might cry. Yeah, it's awful. Well, that's really equally reassuring, and also I'm sorry that you're seven-year-olds. Actually, my seven-year-old comes into my bed every night at the moment, so this is happening in our house too. So what have you got going on in your work?

What are you trying to get done with your work at the moment? Oh, my God. I am in the middle of writing a new book. I'm at the stage, I kind of broke through the stage last week where I hated every word that I had written to now where I am accepting of what the book is and I'm just reading bits of it. So I'm, like, just tinkering around before I send off that first draft

to then go through the very arduous process of editing it and just distilling it down to like what it is but I'm happy with it it's kind of coming along so that's the big thing for now what is are we allowed to say what the book is um I can give you some sort of loose themes for sure so it's all about um integrity honesty, authenticity, and living your life around those themes. Wow, that's a very important thing. Yeah, and it's cool to riff around.

It's like a really nice subject to think about and look at my own life and when I have and massively haven't done that, and the repercussions. So it's been really lovely. So that's lovely. And then there's so many other little bits going on so tomorrow I start this new 90s show for BBC sounds so just like playing all brilliant 90s music and talking about like 90s tv and popular culture and just like funny references from the 90s so I'm really excited to start that so that'll be every week on a Saturday that goes live and you

can just listen to it whenever um obviously the podcast is kind of ongoing so i just record them whenever a person is around that is on our list so we probably have one a week maybe two a week sometimes and we just bank them um and we've got our festivals that we're planning for this summer the happy place festivals so that we're in the thick of that at the moment um And there's just some other little sort of Happy Place projects, like a charity initiative we're working on called The Great Create for the Prince's Trust. It's all about getting people to be creative and arty and then that in turn raises money for art therapy for vulnerable people.

So we've got lots of really nice Happy Place stuff going on and then a few bits just me doing my thing as well. That's quite a lot of stuff at the moment. it's a nice thing it is it's a lot but I'm a bit of a nerd really like I never think oh my god I've got so I mean sometimes I feel tired and like I'm stretched with family life and work but because I love what I do I'm happy to put the kids to bed and then sit in the kitchen and research a podcast all night or read a book because a guest's coming on or look into what's going on with the festival like that doesn't feel laborious I want to get stuck into it I would way rather do that than watch tv or

definitely go out my god I can't stand going out um so it's kind of, I can fit things in in my free time. I just don't really do some of the normal stuff, like socialise as much or slob out, because I'm so lucky to love what I do. Yeah, and actually I think that really resonates with me, because I think getting things done like that and being busy, I adore it as well. And I think if you love all the things you're getting up to,

it makes it so much easier to find the energy and find the time because it's as you say it's not laborious it's actually I actually think work for me has helped me find a lot of ways of dealing with I don't I would actually be a rubbish full-time mum I think I'd be really awful at it and I like having other projects and sometimes I feel like it's a bit of a loophole because you end up getting space for yourself in amongst the work as well. Oh, absolutely. Like, I know that that's happening. I always feel like, oh my God, am I, you know, I think I've got a nice balance where I'm at home quite a lot

with some of the work that I do, but also just in mum mode. But when I am working, I do feel like, oh my God, I'm getting a little break. I'm getting a little holiday from all the craziness in this house. I'm doing something I really love. And I'm also like, so I'm getting stuff done and we're moving forward with projects.

So it does feel sometimes, not all the time, like very win-win. Like I'm getting that time to myself and I'm doing something productive. But of course there are times where you just feel stretched and knackered and like you're doing everything badly. Yeah. And so working from home, what is that like? How does that really play out when you've got a four-year-old and a seven-year-old? Better now.

I mean, now they're older. Rex is at school every day. Honey is at nursery sort of part-time, but she has two full days. So if I'm writing, I'll really optimise those two full days. And the good thing as well, being a bit of a nerd is I will focus I'm not going to procrastinate and start like online shopping or going for a walk like if

I know I've got from nine till half three I will literally work without a break like I'll eat while I'm working I'm probably sure this is like not recommended at all but I will be eating and typing and I just don't stop because I know it's made me much more focused being a mum because before I could just, you know, dick about and go, oh, I'll just go and have lunch with a friend, do a bit and then do some more tomorrow. But I don't have that luxury. So when I've got those two days or those moments where the kids are at school or nursery, I am in the zone and I just, even if it's rubbish, what I'm producing, if I'm writing or if I'm painting or working on a project I'll just keep doing it anyway and then patch over the gaps the next day but I am pretty good at being focused in those times and you when you're with the kids do you still try and do the work thing as well

sometimes or is it very much when they're home you stop all that yeah I I really try and then just make that separation and I I love cooking so I always cook for them and you know or make little things to take after school snacks or whatever so we might do that together or we do a lot of art and drawing and I tend to do a lot of stuff with them where I couldn't do both sometimes say they're in the bath and I'm hearing emails ping I'll go and quickly check them but I'm not going to be sat there on my laptop whilst they're playing. I do like to kind of have that time where I'm with them and I'm, you know, cooking for them. It's just too hectic to do anything else.

They fight the whole time, like they're constantly arguing. So I have to just be a referee most of the time and try and create some peace because it's just mental. And if we've got all four kids because my step kids come a lot then there's no chance you know I've got two different sets of meals to do I mean my husband's around a lot as well but we'll try and work out who does what a lot of as you'll know taxiing from place to place and so yeah that's why those hours when they're not here so important I just knuckle down and crack on with it and what was

happening in your work when you had your first baby so when I had Rex I was at radio one full time at that point so I was doing five days a week on the morning music show and I was doing celebrity juice and a couple of other projects at the time a couple of the tv things so when I had Rex I think like most of their first baby you're quite terrified as to you know what's about to happen and if you're going to be able to cope with it so I actually did take six months maternity leave I didn't work at all um radio what I mean I'm self-employed it's not like I got paid for not working but they were like if you want to take six months fine we'll get someone to sub you so I literally took six months off didn't earn a penny and did nothing I didn't even think about

work I didn't feel I had the capacity to quite frankly I was so all consumed with just being a mum and surviving like most new parents are yeah and not sleeping um so yeah and then I went back after six months and just tried to muddle through the chaos of juggling everything and I found it highly stressful definitely for the first year yeah and especially I mean I might be wrong but an environment like radio one which is so much about youth and you know most people listening are sort of probably late teens early 20s and they don't really want to hear that your brain's not working very well because your baby was up in the night maybe I don't want to hear that absolutely not and you know you have got a lot of other DJs there who will have been to gigs the night before will have been out

doing something fun and I was just sort of watching a lot of you know CBBs and like waking up in the night and watching online shows I was breastfeeding and feeling deranged so yeah I think that's probably where I started to feel like I needed to move on. I stayed a couple more years after that because I left when I got pregnant with Honey. But, yeah, it did definitely, you know, create a big shift in how my life felt versus a lot of the listeners and other DJs there. So it all kind of naturally unfurled that I was starting to think about what do I do next yeah but do you remember feeling quite worried

initially when you went back to work about being work or were you always going to be a working oh no I was really nervous about it I remember the first day back I had the most ridiculous first day back which is why I'll never forget it. It was my birthday. I had a normal radio show in the morning. And then in the evening, I had to go back and record this big Justin Timberlake live concert. Bear in mind, I hadn't spoken to like many other humans and certainly hadn't on live radio. I was like, what is going on? I was so fuzzy in the head. I was talking to Justin Timberlake just thinking, I don't know what I'm I haven't done this for so I haven't got a clue if this is awful I'm

just waffling on and and then Jesse kept texting me like Rex won't calm down he's freaking out because I'd been breastfeeding and I was sort of at that point doing a bit of both bottle and breast so he was just like oh my god I can't get him to calm down I'm like I'm just about to go on live radio I don't know what it was just so intense and from that point on I was just like how am I going to do this yeah luckily at the time my amazing cousin Katie who was a nursery teacher came and worked for us as a family and helped us out because obviously Jesse's in a band like we have a similar setup so he was off doing his thing so my cousin was integral at that point she was just um just such a backbone to the whole family and making it work and helping us through it so between me Jesse and Katie we sort of fumbled through it but my god it was absolutely bonkers yeah and also when you

get in and take over from Katie it's quite hard for her to probably imagine how you felt like I've just been interviewing someone live on radio and I couldn't really I mean it's not the same as for a lot of people who come in and go I was in a meeting and it wouldn't be I mean it's like it's such a I could sort of feel the stress of that yeah you've got to like wind down and you know I do so little of that sort of thing I don't do those like big concerts or big live things so much anymore because I've tried to tailor you know make my work fit around my life yeah and it is much quieter now and it is sort of less high octane it was so um sort of it was

all about adrenaline and and and being in the moment and thinking on my feet and being in a sort of heightened state and then I'd come back to the family home and have to kind of unravel and get back to just having my feet on the ground and oh my god okay what is going on in this house you know I need to get back in that zone so that was always quite a speedy and weird transition at the time I was living quite near the studio as well so I'd be home within like 15 minutes right so there is no time to go oh I'm just gonna like take a minute or whatever it was just I'm back into it so yeah it was it was full on it really was and I mean it still is in a lot of ways but I think you sort of incrementally learn to cope a teeny bit better and if you you know what your pre-baby you what do you think she would think about you now and how your life is and all those changes that have happened?

It's a really complicated one because I've been thinking about it recently and I think my initial thought would be to presume that the younger me would think, oh my God, you know, you don't do, what do you do these days apart from work and parent? You don't do anything for yourself. You're quite boring. I'd probably berate myself a little. But then actually I unpicked that the other day when I was writing this book. And I thought, actually, I do think I would think that because inherently I am a homebody

and I am a bit of a nerd. And I like being at home and being with family and I like pottering around. I love those days where I'm not not at work and I can just pop to the shops do some chores at home like I love those days I think actually in my 20s even though I was like going out loads doing all these going to gigs and hosting these big concerts or doing these big live tv things a lot of that was really uncomfortable and didn't feel natural so I think actually all I've done is

migrate back to being how I used to be as a kid and a teenager because this is how I and it's I was brought up in a very normal working class environment where you didn't go to big concerts or do anything remotely exciting you just you know you just had that lovely family normalcy so I think actually I've just gone back to how I was before and the 20s bit was just this decade of like chaos and now I've just you know kids have forced me to get back into that mindset so I probably would be quite relieved I think looking at it weirdly yeah so I was gonna ask you were you raised in quite a traditional household did your mum and dad both work oh no both parents worked because you know they literally had to so my dad has only just retired actually he was a sign writer for years from the age of

sort of 15 to his early 60s and so he was out all day sign writing painting making signs whatever and then my mum through necessity was doing like three three to four jobs at any one time she was an orthodontist nurse. She was a cleaner. She was delivering next parcels in the car. She was just trying to make it work around us going to school and after school clubs. And I mean, I think kids then had more freedom than our kids probably do today.

So I would often just walk home, let myself in, make myself a snack, watch TV, and no one would be there. And that was perfectly normal back then. But she was was just I don't know how they did it they somehow just you know it's me and my brother there's two of us but somehow they made it all work and I got to go to my dance club after school and drama and all the things I wanted to do and they facilitated that by working really bloody hard so I do often look back and think actually I've got it really easy to be honest compared to what they had to put up with it's you know it's just a lot simpler for me yeah and it sounds like they instilled a really good work ethic because I do think that's

a nice thing about seeing your parents do those things is it becomes familiar to you that it's okay to give yourself permission to wear those different hats and do those different things hugely I think you know there's pros and cons like we all know to being a working mum or not you know there's no right or wrong there never is it's just what feels right to you but certainly I think by osmosis how your parents are you know massively sort of leaks into you and your thinking and the way that you want to run your life and you know my parents have both been incredibly hard working so it would feel very unnatural for me to not and actually now Jesse's really good at saying to me look just slow down just like give yourself an hour a break and he has to almost tell me because

I'm so used to that model of family life and seeing that and knowing that I can so why not that I have to be told to just put the brakes on a bit I'm exactly the same because I've always got this voice in my head of someone going there's someone out there with more children more to do and they're getting it all done so I find your case is not many with more children but yeah there's not that many but it's funny because I've sort of got equal parts sort of modern woman. And again, I have a brilliant role model in my mum of having a good work ethic and raising us. But I've also got a sort of mum's net forum in there as well where it's kind of going,

well, that's lovely if you want to work. I mean, I personally, I couldn't leave my kids with someone else. It's really wonderful that you do. It's sort of like this sort of insecurity about it, I suppose, sometimes. I have that for sure definitely I think yeah I think all working mums do I think if you're a stay-at-home mum you feel guilty that

you're not working and if you're a working mum you feel guilty that you're you know sacrificing moments with your kids yes it's it's you it's you just can't win and I talked to Jesse about it a lot because he doesn't feel like that he really doesn't and he goes to work and he does just sort of switch off I'm not saying that in a judgmental way he just has the ability to go no I want I want to go to work and I'm going to do it and I do think there is still that sort of archaic notion that the woman's place is still in the house that is still there you know it does still resonate and so we're this generate our generation and possibly our mums too but our generation certainly having to navigate parenting females navigating parenting looking at how we've

got a lot more options so what what do we choose to do exactly how do we do it and it's really confusing yeah and quite overwhelming massively and i totally agree with richard as well he i mean he's a brilliant dad and he's you know very involved in everything however he he seems to find it a lot easier to compartmentalize yeah and wherever I am in the world and whatever I'm doing I've always sort of got streams in my head of what's happening with all the kids and looking at okay that one will be there by now and it's you know Jesse who's 40 like he'll be having lunch at nursery now and oh I hope Sunday gets home all right after school noise but Richard will ask me like four or five times about something that's you know, Jesse, who's 40, like he'll be having lunch at nursery now and oh, I hope Sonny gets home all right after school and all this.

But Richard will ask me like four or five times about something that's happening and I'll be like, I've told you where that's happening today. I just sometimes think, but I think I've almost created the beast a little bit too. Oh, I have, I have. We had this chat last night. We were talking about some logistical bollocks

that we spend our whole life sort of doing these who's doing what where and when yeah and I was moaning about Jesse who again like Richard is the most brilliant dad massively hands-on will go take honey to ballet do it like he just would get stuck in with whatever's there but because I am such a control freak and I'm quite untrusting I will often do everything so there can be no room for error. It's exactly the same as me and then he's like well you didn't give me any time to do anything because you've bloody done it all and I'm like

yes because it wouldn't have gotten done and it's like well I don't actually know that because I didn't give him the chance so it is like we do create that we make a rod for our own back and then we moan about it but I'm a control freak. Yeah I'm exactly the same and I think actually it suits me to to take the reins in that way and I mean yesterday I was doing something I was like oh

can you just feed Mickey and then I kind of came up I literally said to it do you want me to open the packets for you because we're doing a puree thing then I'm like what am I doing you know like he doesn't probably need that but then I did it anyway and he was like do you want to just feed him and I'm like no no I do have to go and do this other thing it's ridiculous what are we doing it's so funny because Jessie and I talk about you two all the time we constantly go how the fuck are they doing like how are they doing this because we have really similar jobs you know you and I have there's similarities and certainly with Jessie and Rich that we've got a similar setup of there is no structure, there's no schedule. Yeah.

We've got two slash four kids at any one time. You've got five kids all the time. And we're just, like, in awe of you guys. Like, how are they doing this? Like, we just, honestly, we talk about you guys all the time. That's funny, because I think I have, I think there's a reverse thing happening in our house, because I know you've always been very sweet about

how much I get done but in my head I'm always a bit like I bet Fern you know you just seem to have so many things you're doing no but really

and it's wonderful because it's all going back to what you were talking about with your book it all comes from you you can tell it's all authentic it's all done with passion

and I just think there's sometimes it's actually in the nicest way quite hard to avoid you and I've got a sweaty Betty bone it's actually, in the nicest way, quite hard to avoid you. I've got a sweaty Betty bone in me, so I see you pretty much daily. As I opened my door home on Friday,

there was a sweaty Betty catalogue on the floor, and there you are doing some amazing yoga pose. So we're not just talking about the work thing, you're also very bendy. You can draw. If I could draw, I would be telling everybody. My drawing sort of stopped

at about 12 I think oh I love it everybody's straight on but you know what it's only that's only been a part of my life that I'm allowing back in now like I used to draw and paint before I had kids all the time I'd always have an easel up I'd be doing a painting at night or yeah I did an A level and then I I kind of left towards the end of that because I was already working so I was trying to juggle a lot then but because of the kids I just felt I can't justify sitting here doing a lovely painting if they're with my cousin or whatever so I just let it go for years and only a month ago I did my first portrait in about I don't know it must be six or seven years because honey's doing more nursery hours and recs at school so I just painted all day

and I was like oh my god I love this I'd forgotten how much I love it and again it's that loophole thing of I'm creating something wonderful and I feel productive but I'm just getting so much from it yeah I'm only really like giving myself permission to do that now which seems ludicrous because again like Jesse will go off and watch Chelsea for four or five hours or Saturday or whatever yeah he loves it and it's absolutely fine and again I'm not saying that in a judgmental way but I do think women give themselves much more of a hard time about giving themselves pleasure without any caveats just I'm so in agreement yeah I'm nodding a lot over here because I think funny if I'm think it's I don't know maybe this is just for for you and I but I feel like I'm now 40 and I feel like I'm still teaching myself that about the permission to do

something just for its own sake yeah um and it's it's really hard to do that and actually when I do present things to the the family in the way that says, I'm doing that. I just went away for half term with my mum and my teenage son. Ordinarily, I'd be tying myself in not being away from the younger ones. This needs to happen, actually. It's really important. When you present something like that, nobody flaps anyway. The kids are fine because I'm saying to them, this is happening whereas I think I've fallen foul so many times of because I love what I do and because I'm my own boss with it and

I can decide when I work I've sort of let them think that actually I can also choose to completely clear the decks and that I think I should have set it out a lot more sort of as a professional thing from the get-go because instead they just think well just tell them you can't sing or we don't need don't go and write a song today yeah yeah I know it's not funny I know it's um it's just so complex for us to work out what we are deserving of you know not only probably due to where we grew up how we grew up how we were parented, but also just historically how women have been presented and how women have lived. And also, you know, we think back to all the sacrifices our grandmothers, great-grandmothers would have made.

And there is a bit of that that still sort of stings. Like, oh, my God, you know, I do have so many more options and choices. And I think we're still shedding a few of those layers. Like, you know, neither of my nans worked they were they had no choice they were at home and that was they brought up my parents and my aunties and uncles and that that was how it was so it's I think there's so there's so much sort of historic baggage that we're carrying as well as our own personal stuff and and stuff from our parents that it's never just as simple as I think I deserve this I'm going to do it yeah I agree I agree it's always got these caveats no you're completely

right because initially when I thought oh I'd love to you know to do this podcast and talk to working mothers I was like well is it a thing maybe it's just a thing because I think it's and then I see so much everyone I know no it's very much still an issue I think many people just pretend everything's easy and fine like I've certainly in the last sort of five years I'm just honest now I'm just me before that I didn't feel I could be I was kind of just this person on tv and no one wanted to know what was going on in my life no you know I was in that again that radio one world predominantly where it was about fun and you know just the music and the excitement and you don't sit there and talk about how you're

really feeling or what's going on but I've seen such worth in it that now in any area of my life but especially parenting you know I will post on Instagram that I haven't slept or that you know there's the cat's done a shit on the floor and I'm having to do sort that out and then I'm late for the school run like last week I sent honey to school in her World Book Day costume the day early. That was a good one. What was it? Well, luckily she hates dressing up, so it was literally a cat onesie with cat ears,

so she got away with it. It could have been a lot worse if I'd sent her in some handmade outfit. But I don't want to present it as just like, oh yeah, I'm a working mum and it's all so easy. I find it bloody hard all the time. Yeah. And I'm luckier than most that I really love my job.

Yeah, I'm exactly the same. It's still tricky. So, you know, for single parents out there, for parents that hate their jobs, whatever, it's just a minefield. It's a big, big topic for so many people. minefield it's a big big topic for so many people but in in a in a nicer way how do you think being a mum has influenced your your creativity because obviously it's massive part of your world hugely I mean especially with the writing massively because before I was very tunnel visioned with how I saw life and I had had this very weird life that became very normal to me so from sort of 15 to 29 I was just hugely selfish in how I ran my life and I would be traveling all over the place and doing all these exciting things

here or in America or whatever I was doing and it just was about supposedly in my head at the time scaling this like ascent to success utopia whatever that means or was but I thought that was a thing and it was going to make me feel more complete and better or whatever yeah and I don't know if it was uh through getting older or through having kids or bit of everything going on and how my life changed but um I mean I just see life in just a completely different way yeah and success has been completely redefined it's not an ascent to anywhere it's just a daily experience of what's going on yeah and learning to go with the ups and downs rather than it being this sort of end goal and it's allowed me to write in a much more uh well it's allowed me to write full stop but in a much more thoughtful

and open-minded way um and and I think you know with everything really like you know even silly little things like with this charity initiative that we've come up with for the Prince's Trust it's all about being creative and obviously that's been hugely important my whole life but since having kids it's now one of the main ways that we as a family will certainly me and the two little ones will connect you know we will sit and like there's always stuff on our table in the conservatory just like bits of junk and stuff that we're making or painting and it's something that we always just go back to and they seem to really thrive when we're doing it and the same with my

stepdaughter more than my stepson we have always baked together since she was five years old we've always you know done little cakes together or had little baking projects and she's 14 now so she's kind of moving out of that being a bit uncool but you know it's all that's always like that's kind of been ramped up because of the kids as well I probably would have let that slide massively if they hadn't been there to encourage that sort of need for creativity. Yeah. No, I think it's such an intrinsic part of... Back again to authenticity, but also it's... Being creative is so good for small people because of their morale.

It's not really about what you're producing, but just kind of keeping your brain, like, firing off in all those different directions. And getting them off screens. Anything to get them away from a screen is good. Yeah. It's hard. That's quite a big issue in our house, I think, because Richard and I are quite geeky,

but also a lot of our work is on the computer or on the phones. And so, you know, they've all become aware of these gadgets from when they're little. Yeah, it's hard. Especially the older two, the 11-year-old and the 15-year-old, are really into computing and gaming, but also creating stuff on there sometimes. But it's quite hard to sort of navigate that.

It is, but I just think, you know, we have to sort of look at it and see that their world is so different to how ours was when we were growing up. And we've got to integrate, you know, how we grew up with the modern world and find some kind of middle ground. And, like, I saw didn't Sonny build his own computer? He did, yeah. And that's insane. What a skill.

Well, it is a skill. Yeah, that was when he was 12. And, yeah, it was brilliant. But now it means he's got a computer in his bedroom. So he's had that for a little while. And sometimes I think it's been good for him because he does some really positive stuff on there. And sometimes I think, is that a really daft thing? But I suppose I'll slightly have to wait and see it a little bit really

yeah we all are we're the generation like discovering what the repercussions of these screens you know what that manifests as none of us know right now it's terrifying I know one thing I've always thought was really strange for for our kids is the fact that they know so much what they look like because when I was little I didn't really know what I looked like half the time and if I was dressed up somehow you know I'd see the picture maybe like two weeks later when it'd been developed the idea that you literally you take the picture or show them the screen and they know how weird is that's the bit that terrifies me most definitely especially having daughters oh my god I find that like Lola's 14 so she's in the thick of this kind of snapchat Instagram which

is not as big on Instagram but like definitely the snapchat vortex where it's just every four seconds they take a picture of themselves and it's not necessarily pose it's just like because they're messaging their friends that's how they communicate with each other but like you say it's a sort of subconscious um undercurrent of a mirror constantly yeah back at you and i i don't know that it freaks me out a lot yeah but we can't change it's there it's in our everyday society you know we can't combat it single-handedly it's such a tricky one no i think and i think one of the best things you can do not just with um screens but with sort of everything that goes on as they grow up is just trying to sort of walk alongside them with things yeah I think as long as they're communicating and talking to you about you know things they're excited about things they're

scared of you know what worries them then actually that's that's the best you can do with all of it really because I think as soon as you say you're not allowed you can't do this then all of a sudden it becomes this like tempting definitely what is it oh my god you know I really need that now because I'm really not allowed it so yeah I don't know it's a tricky one yeah I know but in a nicer way if I asked your kids what you do for a living do you think they'd be able to answer me Rex would probably just say he'd probably just say you I'm on the telly and radio because he that's the only bits that he can kind of grasp. Like a podcast, he's got no idea. I don't think Honey...

I don't know, I've never asked her. I don't think she would really know. Rex is weirdly just understanding the concept of fame at the moment. Honey has no clue. No, she's a bit of a... But Rex is starting to get it, because, like, say we're out and about, and someone asks for a picture,

he'll go, is that because you're on the TV? And I'll sort of have to talk to him and explain about it. And also, obviously, he knows that his grandad's very famous, so he has a concept of that, and if we're out with his grandad or he sees him on the TV, or, like, we watched him on The Brits just recently and he thought that was hilarious. That's such a surreal idea.

I know, so he's just getting to grips with like what that means and I'm very honest because I'm quite opinionated about what fame is and what it means and I I hate the fact that it's seen as this like wonderful um thing that is attainable or that will change your life for the better because to me it it's neutral it has no effect on my life at all yeah the success does that has all sorts of good points and bad points but the fame has just neutrality like I can't see any impact that it has on my life in any way apart from someone might go fun in the street and then duck like that is literally it yeah so I'm always very vocal about you know yeah it's just because I just make it very normal and it's just not a big yeah big deal um because I don't want them growing up with some sort of warped image of that meaning something so I do see it as very meaningless

it our life is actually the same way and I think from when I first heard people recognise me, I realised that they would recognise someone who's in an advert that's on telly a lot. It's sort of without any context. Completely. And for them as well, it's a tiny part of their day. If you're going about your business, they might remember to mention it to someone later in the day

or they might completely forget. Oh my God, mine would not even. It would be like, anything to do with me is just boring, or Jessie, just boring, move on. And the same with my stepkids, they're just absolutely unfazed by any of it. It's just whatever, do you know what I mean? They're much more interested in their world

and their lives and their friends and what's going on there than anything that could be going on in our world. So yeah, and I think you can make fame and all that side of our the weird side of our career a big deal if you want you can you know have blacked out windows and wear a cap out in public and all that shit or you can just go to the supermarket yeah and do your normal thing and crack on as with life as normal which we do because it has no impact on us so i think you can

make it a big deal or you can choose to just whatever i completely agree and i think as well when people first start to get successful in that way i think how you which option you choose is also the thing that is probably a part of helping you feel good about your job as well because i think for some people getting all those trappings the sunglasses and the hat and all that makes them feel like it's harder to dismantle it and take it away yeah jesse is that because he just got back he's got sunglasses on actually actually, I think he thinks. Oh, he's such a child. Does Richard wear sunglasses

all the time? I mean, it's a nice enough day, but it's not. I don't even know where mine are. Mine don't come out until like June. I don't know where they are

in the house. Somewhere in a drawer. Hi. You're trying to be really quiet, but you're being very loud. Oh, well, I think we're in. Thanks for going to the supermarket well done

it's okay well um we can we can nearly finish up actually the only other thing i want to ask you is if there's ever been a time where your family life home stuff and work has sort of collided in a way that's maybe not been ideal or been a bit funny or silly because I know I've had billions of times when that's happened for me like probably the most sort of excruciating was when Sonny um it's my eldest when he was about two and I'd gone to do um Richard and Judy used to have a live show they were doing in the evenings it's after they'd done this morning I think oh I remember that yeah so it's maybe like I think it's when the Richard and Judy book club started yeah yeah um and uh so it's a live show and I had a really bad cold and my mum um had really bad advice she's not a

good advice it was a terrible advice she told me to take Sudafed for my cold so I wasn't snivelly and I don't know if you've ever taken that stuff but it was awful my pupils went to pinpricks my heart was racing oh my god I felt terrible like I mean I was someone that used to get quite bad anxiety on live telly anyway I mean this was still yeah I don't yeah I'm the same it's like my least favorite medium actually yeah um and uh so I was sat there on this on the sofa trying to feel relaxed and feeling really parched and um and Richard maybe went actually your son's here um can we bring him over and i was thinking no because i don't really do anything with them in public at all and and i was thinking

oh god when i get home rich is going to kill me and the grandparents are going to kill me and sonny came trotting over and they put a radio mic on him and he was only two and he had this it was sort of went down halfway down his thigh this really big radio pack and he just started to dismantle the um the set they had a pretend fireplace and sonny was picking up these sticks from the fireplace and richard made he said something like um what was it no i'm from uh sticks and stones won't break my bones but uh names will never hurt me oh god i was thinking that's round the wrong way and i'd really like him to put the sticks down now oh Sophie this is so ridiculous I can I can feel like the anxiety around that

situation is a big a big one I don't know what the moral is you know I have there isn't one just just one of those clusterfuck things that I mean oh my god yeah I mean there definitely have been moments where I have found that the worlds don't collide well so when I had honey I went back to work straight away so with Rex I had that break with honey I literally was back after three weeks I recorded um the Jamie Oliver show down the end of the pier the Friday night dinners thing and um three weeks three weeks so she came with me and he just said look anytime you want to go breastfeed just go and do it it's fine so i was juggling it and that one flukely but i think she was so tiny and she was an exceptionally good baby i kind of made it work but then there were times where like i remember

recording um the bbc music awards and i it was in in Birmingham I'd taken Honey Up for the night and we were in this hotel room and it was a brand new hotel and I went I was breastfeeding and I thought right I'm going to set the schedule so that everything works through the night and I'm not too tired this huge live show the next day and this new hotel loads of stuff was going wrong and the lights in my bedroom wouldn't turn off oh so I was like what the hell am I going to do she's she's snoozing now I need to sleep it was like 11 o'clock at night we had an early wake the next day so then at like midnight I'm moving all of her baby stuff all of my stuff into a room next door

so barely slept trying to then breastfeed before I go to this big live concert um you know you've got like all these pop stars walking around so of like all just completely bizarre and nearing the end of the show my boobs are like rocks like absolute boulders of milk I'm thinking if we don't finish this I'm just gonna it's just gonna start coming out like there is no stopping this situation and sort of feeling a bit panicky about about that but trying to stay focused and you know there have been a lot of times where it's just felt like this cannot work together this is not like I can just pop off like I'm so sorry Chris Evans I'm just going to walk off the stage and because my tits are literally about to explode so yeah there have certainly been moments where I've just thought what am I doing this is I'm trying to get her to nap when I'm like in between

things like in a buggy racing around a block of the studio you know trying to get the kids to sleep and panicking and then she doesn't. And then going on set, feeling really frantic. And oh my God, like those days, I've sort of parked it and forgotten it. But if I think about it too much, oh my God, I don't know how I got through that anxiety because it was just, the juggling was ridiculous.

It is. And you find yourself telling people that you don't need to tell and they don't even understand what you're talking about anyway. And I thought, oh God, I'm really lucky I get to take my kids to work. I've got a sort of job where it's actually doable because yeah like my mum came to Top of the Pops at Christmas that year because she could sit with

honey whilst I was on set but I thought I was making it all work but it was utter chaos yeah like leaking boobs babies crying pop stars trying to warm up next door running around blocks trying to get babies to sleep like not as relaxing as I'd envisaged no but luckily I don't know I've had too much crossover where I've felt like they've had to be part of like I've been asked you know would you do a tv show where we shoot the kids whatever and I'm like absolutely not I just don't want them I want them to make the decision down the line and I've been asked if I would talk in depth about step parenting and I haven't quite found my comfort level with that subject even yet because it feels so personal

you know I do talk about it but you know I'm not gonna talk on behalf of my step kids yeah maybe when they're older so I mean yeah so I'm still finding my feet with it and working out how much to do and show and it's just again because it's a new thing for all of us to kind of get used to like do we put our kids on instagram do we not do we talk about them do we not you know it's and there's again no wrong or right it's just yeah what what feels right for you at the moment that's a very bespoke thing it's very i think so their own because for some people what i've already revealed about my kids is way too much and for some people they're happy to do way more exactly exactly i'm not judgmental about what other people do

No, nor me you've just got to find what's your barometer what feels good, what pushes you over the edge and don't be swayed by other people I think you've got to do what feels right for you Yeah, definitely I'm not at all interested in literally how many nannies and childcare

but are you someone that's have you always found it okay handing your kids over when you have to go and work no I mean at first it was really lovely that my cousin worked for us because she's like my sister we grew up very very close with our families living near each other going on holiday every year together so she is like one of my favorite humans on earth so it was so I remember asking her we're with my nan who's no longer with us, but we were sat with my nan and I was like, do you want to come and help out with Rex

when I go back to work? It was a spare of the moment thought. And she was like, yes, I hate where I'm working, please. And it just all worked and was just so beautiful. So we were really lucky in that respect. I'm still very lucky now. We've got a part-time nanny who does after school bits if I'm not around.

I don't use her just for if I want to go and, like, chill out. But if I'm working or if Jessie's away, we have a wonderful lady who helps us out. And she is amazing. But it doesn't mitigate the guilt that I still feel when I go to work that someone else is with my kids. She's integral to our family. Otherwise, Jessie and I couldn't do what we do.

And that is a choice that we've made um but i still do find it really tricky really tricky yeah but then you know i i rarely work weekends and i have quite a lot of time in the week so i i kind of balance it out by going well i've just had like this it's monday today sunday and saturday we had so much lovely family time and went to Kew Gardens and went out with some family other families some cousins and we just had like really special time so today when I'm working and then the lovely lady who helps us out is going to take honey for a play date after nursery today because I've got some work to do and you know I can kind of find my own balance within it but I still find it yeah tricky for sure i know i'm really

fortunate and lucky that i get that opportunity but i still do find it mentally quite challenging yeah no i'm the same i think it's always going to have that little bit of that balance because it's important to get done the things you need to get done but you always think like you say oh can you just take them out the pot it'd be lovely and then you're thinking actually why am i not there i know i know it's um it's a we're in a fortunate situation that we have that access but it does still mentally create a bit of torment I think well talking of mental time I don't know if you knew this I only really found out uh yesterday about what happens in the neurology when you have a baby but you probably know about this no I do not um it's there's three areas of your brain

that um that sort of get enlarged and um by having a baby it's social interaction uh it's empathy and it's anxiety and i didn't actually wow yeah i feel like and i wasn't really spoken to about any of those things in any of my pregnancies what are we told so little like you're just literally figuring it out and seeing especially on the mental side of things i think physically we're given some guidance but still not enough mentally none yeah i mean they sometimes say are you okay are you okay with this and then they'll tick a box and then that's sort of fine and the transition from being like just a regular person walking about doing the right thing to being responsible for another human life is probably one of the like biggest transitions that you will take on

yeah it's kind of just meant to sort of mentally figure it out and then figure it out with possibly also a co-parent if you have one so you're both with your different brains yeah you've had very different physical experiences trying to figure it out like it's just the whole thing is bonkers yeah and actually when I've read that I thought well that makes a lot of sense of things I was experiencing but nobody really told me that at the time apparently you know it's the first time probably that you've spent most of your time thinking about things you can't control yes which makes so much sense doesn't it that's exactly what it feels like I'm a control freak that's impossible yes exactly exactly no I know and I look back I thought it would have been quite a useful thing if someone said so I think

like the empathy thing is actually a lovely positive because you are you put yourself right at the bottom of the pile so you are always thinking about other people it can tip into dangerous territory but it is kind of a nice thing but I think the anxiety I think again because of social media and how parenting is often presented that it can be this kind of beautiful scene of running across a beach with your perfectly dressed children and everything is amazing and you don't see the fucking awful car journey on the way there exactly and the tantrums and the fighting or the lack of sleep or whatever that we do put ourselves under extra pressure yeah when we do feel anxiety we think that then we're faulty or we're not coping yeah whereas show me a parent that's not completely anxious most of the time like i don't know me and my friends talk constantly

and everyone's always worried about something or feeling lacking in an area or are worried about something to do with their kids. It's not possible to not have that anxiety. No, and you need a bit of it because you're trying to... Yeah. ...to keep someone who starts off with zero common sense to, like, get into adulthood.

Yeah, exactly. It needs to be there. But obviously, as well, all those levels are different in each individual, which is why some people can tip into things that can be unhealthy but I just yeah I just really wish I'd been told that actually yeah it's really important we should pass it on to all pregnant humans yeah because the sort of point of wanting to have these chats aside from hearing how people do it and how nice that is for me is I do think there's so many positives to having kids in

terms of how it helps you grow. And I think actually it's, for me, made me more ambitious and made me focus better. But actually, obviously, there are so many people that choose not to have kids or can't have children for whatever reason. And it might be dangled there as if motherhood is this way to access this thing.

Someone described it as motherhood as finding a room in your head that was always there, but you'd never gone in there before and suddenly you sort of have that extra space and I thought well that's nice but there's a lot of people that you know for whatever reason might never open that room and actually I think you know you can so you know I think it's more the flip is that you're normally very worried that motherhood is somehow going to curtail a lot of yourself and I know before I had Sonny I was thinking I do want to work but what if it all goes away what if I can't think of

another song again? Or I just feel a bit daft standing on stage or that part of me is just sort of somehow gone or homogenised and I just can't get back to it again. I think, again, like you're so right, parenting can, especially sort of motherhood can be presented as this, you know, thing that's going to equate completion to, you know, this is now you as the completed

version of your female self and it's just it's so not that because I think with like everything in life you gain a lot of stuff but you also have to lose stuff because it's got to be room made to become a parent and to have these new things that are going on in your life and new thoughts and then bits of like bits of me have closed off and maybe they'll open up in the future but there's certainly there's no room for them right now yeah you know and that one of them is sort of like having a social life or having the energy to do stuff that I used to do is just not there and I think you know it's I because I've had friends that have had a lot of difficulty getting pregnant and watched the you know horrendous pain and loneliness that they feel in that space because

they don't feel they've got anyone to talk to about it and I felt like that for a while you know I I very luckily got pregnant when I was 30 at 30 but before that I was desperate to be a mum like it felt I just as all I could think about I was completely obsessed with the idea I I probably did buy into a bit of that oh my god then I'm going to be this complete human and a lot of my friends either had kids or were having them and it took me a little while to get pregnant and I had to be a bit patient there but there are quite a few situations where people say things they don't realize they're being presumptuous or they're or they're um putting you in a box because you haven't got kids and I was desperate to like absolutely absolutely desperate to. And I did feel quite a lot of hurt during that sort of time. So, yeah, I do just think how parenting is presented,

especially on social media, is just a very, you know, it's this perfect ideal that apparently is going to look and feel amazing. And I definitely bought into that beforehand. And it's just, that's not the reality. And I definitely bought into that beforehand. And it's just, that's not the reality. It's just so much more complex and impossible at times. And I've spoken to some of my friends who had a lot of trouble getting pregnant,

who have now got kids. And I say, do you feel any different? Or do you feel that completion? And they're like, well, obviously I'm insanely grateful to have a kid. But no, it's not how I thought it was be you know mentally yeah and I think a lot of that is because of the presentation of motherhood and the ideals around it that aren't realistic whatsoever yeah I know I totally agree with all of that actually it's true and I don't well at this point I can't actually really remember what I thought motherhood would be like um it feels like so long ago before I had kids but um I do know that it came with so many unexpected things and I remember uh the guilt thing was probably the

most stark one I just was like what I just feel guilty like most of the time yeah yeah yeah um and the second one is a nicer one but being patient actually I used to be quite a lot more impatient and I thought same oh and problem solving I've got so much better at problem solving because especially with five kids and all different ages, I've had to deal with all manner of things when we're out and about or when we're just about to leave or something happening.

And I now quite enjoy that. And I can apply that to my work a little bit. I quite like that, the problem solving. There's always a way. There's something we can do. Patience is a big one. I had zero patience, like none. I would just give up and go,

I'm not doing that because it's taking too long. I can't be bothered or whatever. Whereas especially with Rex, I've learned I have to be patient with him. I cannot rush this kid. I cannot spring things on him and expect him to be dynamic. I've got to be patient and prepared. And there are certain things I have to do

to get him to listen and to play ball so that our family can operate in a cohesive way because he he's a very um he's quite sort of sensitive but he's he's just a very vibrant person so everything is like very extreme and he's just very expressive and I have to really honor it and work with it and be patient with how he is as a human I can't control or manipulate what his personality is like I've got to work with it so patience for me has been a huge one yeah I'm still learning that one yeah it's funny isn't it how much more responsive it is actually raising a small person because you think it's all about the sort of parent you're going to be and who they're going to be but actually you get this

person and then you just have to sort of react to that and go okay well you seem to work better with this that and the other and actually my ideas for how this is going to go today is our part it's so not about you that's what I thought I thought I was going to be how am I going to be as a parent how am I going to raise my children and what the ethos I'm going to like set in the house and it's like no I've got to work with what you guys are like I've got to work with these two totally different personalities yeah the other thing I hadn't prepared for two kids who have entirely different outlooks on life from the get-go and make them get on and all of us do things together and like you we've got kids ranging from 4 to 18 so how is that going to work you know it

is about learning to have all these personalities um aligning somehow and and making it work so yeah you are like your opinion can do one it's like very much about you know for the good of the kids and their upbringing making sure that yeah you know you've got to have your say and make sure things work for you. But really, you've got to be listening and, like, take on board all these different wants and needs and personalities and figure a way out to make it work. Definitely.

No, I completely agree. I'm going to be learning that for the rest of my life. I know we are. There's no end with this one. No. Just carry on. There is not. There is not. Well um i could actually keep talking to you all day but me too i'm aware that you have lots of things to be getting on with and thank you so much i've

really enjoyed our chat um and um it's been really insightful and i'm glad to hear that um there's a little bit of chaos going on in amongst such a lot yeah but I can't I still can't work out if I'm more impressed with all the things you've got going on or how flipping tidy your house is like my home has never ever ever looked like this yeah but this is also when you come around and tidy my house I'm a control freak with this too so this is why I have no so people are like you know oh you must just be a workaholic if you have no social life no I'm also spending a lot of my time arranging bookshelves and making things look neat because otherwise I just am unbearable to be around.

Well, it's gorgeous. Thank you so much. Come and stay around at mine. Be very stressed out. Oh, I've got the same wallpaper as you. I love that wallpaper. I've got it in my kitchen. I love that wallpaper.

Yeah, be a bit stressed out by the mess and then tidy it all for me. I would like to do that. You know, I go around certain people's houses. I actually went round to someone's house recently. It was a friend of ours was house-s sitting for someone else and the people had gone on holiday it was so so messy I just said look guys I know we're meant to be like we're having a barbecue whatever but I'm just going to clean their kitchen and I did their whole kitchen I like rearranged I mean they probably they might have not wanted me to do

it at all but I had the best afternoon wow I was cleaning like dead flies off windowsills like it was pretty extreme cleaning surfaces that were just like unreal

arranging all of their cleaning products like it was it was a great afternoon for me well I don't know what you're doing this weekend but I'm thinking

of having a bottle of tea oh no seriously thank you very much so that was my lovely chat with fern about how she's well how she's managing life normal life the old normal um working alongside raising her young family and now we find ourselves in a new normal and it's funny reflecting back because in a way hearing Fern and I chat about how we fit you know some of our work around kids being in school and things like that it feels well quite frankly it

feels very indulgent I have not found myself with the luxury of time and headspace that I had before. But where there's a will, there's a way. And I've spoken to Fern since we had our chat on that day. And I know that she's getting on with lots and lots of bits and bobs. And I did ask her if there was anything in particular that she had coming up that she wanted me to mention. And she had loads of projects but actually very sweetly the only thing she thought it'd be nice to chat about was happy place which i thought was very apt because i think if you're lucky enough then you reach a point in your life where your

main bit of work is actually so close to your passion and happy place is so clearly a project close to fern's heart whether it be the podcast, which are hugely successful, or her festival. So I would say watch this space. I think everybody's going to need more and more of a happy place to go to after all the heaviness of what's been going on. And yeah, I wish her and her family very well. And thank you for listening to Spinning Plates.

And I'll see you again soon. Lots of love Thank you.