Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 101 : Sam Dabb

Episode Date: July 31, 2023

Sam Dabb has loved live music all her life and she has run the Le Pub music venue in Newport for decades. Le Pub is one of the 130 venues being supported by the National Lottery this summer, as part of the United By Music tour. I talked to Sam about her love of small gigs, about growing up in a pub herself, and about bringing her own daughter up in a pub and live music environment. We also talked about her frequent visits to the jungle in Calais, when her daughter was a teenager, to help the refugees living there. Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hello, hello. How are you? It is me and it is you. I just rhymed you twice. That's lazy. Lazy songwriting. It was spontaneous. That's my excuse.

How are you? Where do we find ourselves? We're in July. The end of July. So summer holidays. Are your kids all broken up? If you have kids. Mine are all broken up now, of course.

Yes. And I'm sure I've bored you with this already. But it's quite a big year for the Jones boys as my youngest will be starting reception in September my 11 year old will be starting secondary school my 14 year old will be starting GCSEs and my 19 year old is starting a foundation at art school so some nice stuff but just yeah quite a lot of newness newness creeping in so a little bit of you know trepidation brave new world but we're excited I think yes we are excited and life has been pretty good I've been very busy doing loads of festivals as usual

it's been a really lovely summer already actually and i've been traveling around a little bit and actually this weekend coming which will be in the past now that you're hearing it uh it's um it's a good one for me i've got a camp festival which is really glorious and i've got um which one why not on saturday and then rock oyster on Sunday. And all this live music sets the scene very nicely for this episode, which is a Good Causes special episode of Spinning Plates made possible by the National Lottery. So this is really exciting. I got to speak to a lovely woman called Sam Dabb. Now she's a manager of an independent music venue called Le Pub, which is in Newport. And if you look up Newport

music scene from the 90s, the picture that they use on Wikipedia is from La Pub. So this venue has been around for a long time. Sam's been managing it for quite a while now. And it's somewhere she first went when she was 17. She went back when she was 18, had a birthday party there, and just completely loved it. Started working behind the bar when she was 18, had a birthday party there and just completely loved it. Started working behind the bar when she was 20 and became manager when she was only 23. So Le Pub is a big, big part of her life and indeed her daughter's life as well. And so we spoke about what it's like to run a venue, being involved in those amazing grassroots venues, which are the lifeblood of the fantastic music industry that we have here in Great Britain. Without those grassroots venues, musicians like me, we do not learn what we do.

We don't get our chops. They're absolutely vital. Sam met a man called Mark David, who's the founder of Music Venue Trust. And now they're working together again through the National Lottery, who've helped support this amazing venture, which is the United by Music Gig Tour 2023. So this is already underway. It's loads of artists, people like The Blossoms and Metronomy, Cat Burns, My Good Pal, Ed Harcourt,

performing 150 gigs at 130 venues. They're not performing 150 gigs, each individual artist. In culmination, the United by Music gig tour will see 150 gigs, 130 venues, loads of different artists, really, really cool people to go and see. It's been put together by the National Lottery and every National Lottery player who buys a ticket to United by Music

can bring a plus one for free. So this is the third year that the National Lottery player who buys a ticket to United by Music can bring a plus one for free. So this is the third year that the National Lottery's partnered with the Music Venue Trust. And I just think the work they're doing to support the grassroots music sector, it's fantastic. Now, listen, I cannot stress this enough. What the National Lottery are doing by funding this United by Music tour, they are underwriting the full production

and touring costs of the artist taking part. Now, to break that down, what that means is usually when a venue, a small venue, books an act, there's risk involved. The venue's got to be sure that they can try and sell enough tickets to support how much money

they're going to pay the artists and put towards the production. Likewise, the artist, the band, they have to also contribute their costs, you know, their production costs. So basically, that's why touring, especially at that level, it can be pretty hard to sustain. So this contribution to grassroots venues, it's absolutely incredible. And in total, the National Lottery's contribution to these venues it's absolutely incredible and in total the national lottery's contribution to these venues through the united by music tour is one and a half million what you're doing is vital honestly this is a brilliant i mean they call it a good cause good cause capital g capital c from me it's brilliant and i had more in common with sam than just a love of live music

um she actually was in a band in the 90s although she didn't enjoy it as much as I did as you will hear from her um but yeah we had a lovely lovely chat I think you're going to really like her it was a complete pleasure to hang out with her and actually really fascinating to hear from the other side of the equation I'm very used to my side of things pitching up singing in these places um so it's really nice to hear from sam what it means to her to be part of a venue like the pub and be one of these incredible vital grassroots venues and hear how the national lottery has helped enhance the experience she has of putting on live music we're both kindred spirits sam and i we blimmin love it so yes um over to sam she's going to explain everything better than I ever could.

And see you on the other side. And it's really good to be back doing the podcast again. I have not one, not two, but 10 brilliant episodes all lined up for you. The usual brilliant mixture of people. Just really, really happy. You know I love what I do. It's been over three years now. This is starting to get serious, guys.

Long-term relationship. Anyway, good to have you back. And if you're new to the podcast family, well, welcome. Thank you for lending me your ears. And I'm sat here on the sofa with Titus and I'm going to go make myself a cup of tea, listen to Sam and I having a chat, and I'll see you in a minute. Sam, it's so nice to meet you. I've been really excited about meeting you because I think we're going to have lots and lots to talk about. How are you today? I'm good, thanks. Yeah, I'm good. So we can start with what's brought us together, which is the National Lottery, which has brought back this amazing tour, United by Music. So let's tell everybody what that tour is all about.

Yeah, I'm really excited for that. And I think one of the main things people don't understand about the project is the National Lottery aren't just funding the free ticket. They actually pay the artists and pay the venues, which enables the venues to be putting on gigs and making money on the bar and attracting artists they wouldn't normally attract and being able to showcase how amazing their venues are at no financial risk to them. Which is huge.

I don't think, as you say, people might not understand underwriting the production. Yeah, underwriting the entire cost. As a venue owner, that's way more important than the buy one, get one free. The buy one, get one free is a nice little extra for the public, but for the venue owners, the underwriting of the cost is the main thing, and it's just incredible. Yeah, so the buy one, get one free is if you're a National Lottery player

and you buy a ticket, you get to bring a plus one for free, which is great. Yeah. And the actual tour, United by Music, is going to, I think it's 130 venues up and down the UK. Yeah.

And 150 gigs, and loads of interesting artists from Sam Ryder to Metronomy. Yeah. My friend gigs and loads of interesting artists from Sam Ryder to Matronomy. Yeah. My friend Ed Harcourt, who I know you know a bit, is also doing it.

It's going to be really special. It started now and I think it runs all the way until September. Yeah, I think it's mid-September because we've got a couple of gigs at Le Pub

in mid-August. Mm-hmm. So I'm really excited for those. Yeah, you're the venue manager for Le Pub. I am, yeah. The thing about Le the pub so I was looking up and I felt like I don't think I've ever actually stepped into the pub but I feel

I know it because it resonated with me so hugely as some of those venues that are just the kind of um the bit where you really find out what kind of musician you are when you have to play those kind of venues yeah there's no hiding there's no hiding at all you're right there you're right in front of the crowd they can hear every word they can hear every note exactly I mean they're lovely don't get me wrong they're lovely but yeah it's not a place if you want to hide behind anything so can you just sort of paint a picture for me so if we're in Newport and we head to the pub what's the venue like so you walk in and um we've got like a huge traditional bar area and one of the reasons i fell in love with the building was there was already this huge huge mahogany bar all the way down the entire one side of the building it's so beautiful um and then the venue is off to the

right as you come in through the doors which is is a completely separate room, and that's just kind of your classic black box venue where you get to focus on the artist and nothing else. And how many does it hold in there, the venue? 120. So it's a proper grassroots venue, as they've referred to it. So those kind of gigs, I don't know if you find this, but I find those kind of gigs, as a performer, the most nerve-wracking, actually,

because it's so intimate and people are right there. And everybody associates venues like that with people starting out, but actually sometimes you have people returning. I know Tim Burgess came and did a gig there, didn't he? Yeah, Tim Burgess came last year for our birthday. That was really cool. Griff Rees came as well from Super Furries. That was amazing.

Sang happy birthday to the pub in Welsh, which was a very special moment that I really enjoyed. That's so cool. Yeah, both of them said that it's a completely different experience and one that I think once your career kind of progresses, you forget how nerve-wracking those experiences were and then you step back in and you're like, oh my God, they're right in front of me.

Yes, and as you say, that thing of so exposed. I mean, I think I started doing gigs when I was 16 and I sang in venues exactly like that and for me it wasn't so much when I was doing the singing because then I you know the song would start and it's like I know what I'm supposed to do here it was the bits in between like if my guitarist need to change a string or something like oh how do you talk to people yeah yeah how do you talk to people that are so close so close and So close. And yet not actually your friends.

No, and sometimes I'd be like, is my dad actually here yet? And I remember people sort of pointing at the back that he'd arrived. It was like that intimate. You could literally see every face. But at the same time, it's like I've got such affection for all that because it sort of is your first introduction, firstly, to seeing live music. I used to go and watch absolutely tons of gigs like that.

But also it sort of crystallises that your first experience of what it means to be in a band and have that proximity. So it's really exciting. I think one of the things that I really love about grassroots music venues is obviously not every band is going to go on to have a huge career, but every person that's in a band that plays them will make friends that will last them forever. Yes.

Like, we've got kids that are drinking in the pub now, you know, they're 18, 19, and their parents met because, you know, they were in, one was in one band and the other was in another band and they played a gig together and, you know, they fell in love, they've had a baby, their baby's now a grown-up,

you know, it's a whole world of people that just love music. Yeah. And it's a way of, like, having this community that isn't necessarily built around being successful. Exactly. It's great. If bands go on to be successful, that's amazing. But there's so much more to it, so many more levels.

Yeah, I mean, I think what you described there is exactly that, community. And also passion and things where you care about it and you feel part of something. Yeah. It's really special. And going back to the National Lottery, so what does the funding mean to a venue like the pub? And how might you be using that funding? So we've got two gigs.

So we don't actually see the funding, which is, I think, a really important point. The gigs are just completely paid for. And then our costs are covered by the Music Venue Trust via the National Lottery. So we've got Witch Fever, which is a band I've been chasing for ages and I'm really, really excited about. And I thought we'd missed the point at which they were small enough to play for us. And they're coming through. And a band called Opus Kink, which I caught at Focus Wales Festival last May.

And it was, yeah, it's just two bands that are just really exciting for us. But the problem is you'd never really know what ticket sales are going to be. So to book those bands isn't cheap. And then you've got to factor in your sound engineer, your writer, your show rep, everything else. And every gig you put on is a risk of losing money. And grassroots music venues don't have any money. So to know that actually the tab for that show,

the band, your tech, everything, is all picked up by the National Lottery, it just gives you the chance to then take a chance on a different band. Yeah. for that show, the band, your tech, everything, is all picked up by the National Lottery. It just gives you the chance to then take a chance on a different band because you're not losing money on those shows. So maybe let's go take a risk on somebody else. And yeah, it's really good. Well, I think that's what you've said is so important for people to realise because I think as a punter, you'd be thinking firstly,

oh, why can't I see this band? I really want to see play here. But also I think sometimes people don't quite understand the nuts and bolts of how touring works and the expense. And as you say, the risk that the venues are taking to get people there. And that's why the fact that people are going back to gigs and that's what's happening is such a massively important part of the lifeblood

of those grassroots venues. And music and the culture that we have in the UK for all of this. We've got such a long-standing history with live music and how important it is. And I know for both of us it's been a really big part of probably what made us who we are now. Yeah, absolutely. It's my whole life. I don't think I've ever done anything else. So when you say that this started in the 90s, like me in a band, right? Yeah. Literally walked in and went, I think this is me really my parents had pubs my

whole life I pulled my first pint of four years old because back in the um back in the early 70s no late 70s early 80s you used to have to close on a Sunday afternoon between 2 p.m and 7 p.m I think it was so my parents used to pull the curtains and just carry on serving and everybody thought it was really cute to stick the baby on a crate and get the baby to serve and I'd get monster munch that was my payment was monster munch so I've I love I love pubs I love the feeling of being in pubs I've never known anything else I did a stint as um I tried to be a trainee journalist for about a year didn't like it and then yeah I fell back into bar work and realised, no, this is me. I do, I absolutely love it.

What's it like growing up in a pub? I really enjoyed it, but I was the youngest of five. Oh, OK. So I was kind of mollycoddled by my brothers and sisters. All the punters thought I was hilarious because I was just a mouthy little four-year-old that sold them beer. I'm just picturing my four-year-old who's also the youngest of five and how he would completely milk that as well yeah I used to love it I used to shout beef monster munch I used to stand on a crate and shout who wants a beer for beef monster munch that was my other

question which favorite monster munch I think before was the beef when they were only big yellow packet I'm a flaming hot girl myself but I take your point yeah no so yeah I've always loved pubs and I literally walked in and I was like this is incredible because I think there was a band playing and I was just like this is it this is me and then I spent three years begging for a job and finally got one wow and so how how hands on are you are you in the pub like all the time when it's open pretty much is that how it works um I'm a little bit more hands off in the Public all the time when it's open, pretty much? Is that how it works? I'm a little bit more hands-off in the last year or two because there's just so much more going on. I'm there every day, every single day.

If we're open, I will pop in for at least an hour and a half to two hours, make sure everything's running okay. If there's a gig on, I'm there. But, I mean, we do open six days a week. So to go there all day, every day, would just absolutely, I think I'd I think I'd collapse yeah yeah no I just I was trying to picture because I imagine with venues like the pub your role is kind of like the beating heart of those venues actually and how you run it and how

it's all set up yeah I think I think people like um Dom at the Boiler Room in Guildford and things like that, you can tell who they are in their venue. And, you know, it is, it really is. The venue manager sets the tone for absolutely everything in the venue. Exactly. And you walk in and my venue is full of weird little knickknacks and neon signs that just scream, my house, my venue looks like my house. You know, that's just the way it is.

Perfect. Yeah, I love it. And when it comes to the the gigs do you find you sometimes have to get involved with the setup I'm just trying to picture like if that's ever something that happens if you've been in bands and you've been in venues and my husband's a sound engineer okay so he is normally shouting at me to fetch something or do something like he'll I'll be sat at the bar and I'll be chatting to the bar staff and making sure everything's running and then I'll suddenly get like a text that says get me this so I'll be sat at the bar and I'll be chatting to the bar staff and making sure everything's running and then I'll suddenly get, like, a text that says,

get me this, so I'll have to run down, because we've got a recording studio in the basement, so I'll have to run down and grab a cable and bring it up to him and things. But other than that, no, I mean, we've got a little show rep. Little show rep, that's quite patronising. I don't know why it came out like that. We've got a show rep who's amazing and she runs everything absolutely incredibly smoothly.

She bands turn up, she welcomes them, she feeds them, she sorts everything out for them. And, yeah, I'm actually at a weird point where I don't really know what my job is anymore. I know I still work 60 hours a week, but I couldn't for the life of you tell me what I do. I don't have a clue anymore. Well, I guess that's what happens when things sort of grow outside of it.

And presumably as well, you've become someone other people come to speak to about how to make a success of a venue yeah I'm a guru for music venue trust uh they gave me a fancy title I think it's profitability and sustainability guru but I think people that run grassroots music venues they do it for love and they do it for passion and a lot of them forget they have to make money too yeah and it's it's really easy to get like caught up in these incredible bands that you're booking and this incredible music and then all of a sudden you realize you haven't made enough money to pay this

bill and that that comes down ultimately to funding from the government and there should be more funding from the government for grassroots music venues and i think the pipeline investment fund that music venue trust are trying to set up with um arena tickets they want a pound for every added to every arena ticket to be filtered down to a grassroots music venue in that area god that's brilliant yeah because you know if i'm paying i don't even know what the prices are but if i'm paying 250 pound to see taylor swift yeah it's not going to bother me to pay 251 pound to see Taylor Swift yeah it's not going to bother me to pay 251 pound to see Taylor Swift but that would make a huge difference to Fuel and the Moon in Cardiff which are two streets away from the stadium she's playing at and struggling like all grassroots music venues are yeah so I

think my job is to just go around and say like if you put 50p on that yeah that would make you a lot more money or have you thought about trying this? And I'm really enjoying that aspect of it. Well, I think that's all brilliant. And I think also people would, they would appreciate when they get to the point where we can be so proud of the music scene that we are, you know, that's sustaining.

I think they have to understand that for, I can't think of any artist that I follow that wouldn't say that the grassroots venues they played were so fundamental to everything they do. So if you don't put it there, you don't get the bit at the end where you go to the stadium and see the big act. I think something that Mark from Music Venue Trust

said to me years ago, which really stuck, was we're going to end up with the same three bands headlining every single festival for the next 30 years and one day even the rolling stones will die you know because we're not we're not investing in the grassroots music venues and therefore we're not investing in grassroots talent and the way that the cost of living crisis and the way that the economy of the country has gone yeah grassroots music venues were hanging in there. They're not hanging in there anymore.

They're in real, real trouble now. COVID as well, of course, massive issue. COVID was absolutely horrendous. Trying to recover from COVID is horrendous. And I think it's just, yeah, it's just really, really difficult for grassroots music venues at the moment to try and make ends meet. And have you done stuff before with National Lottery and the players' funding? Yeah, so we did this very similar scheme.

It was called Revive Live for the last two years because it was about reviving the live music scene after COVID. So we did quite a few gigs with them for that as well. Yeah, okay. It's so good that they've got all these good causes and it seems that it's actually... I love the emphasis on the arts. Obviously, that really resonates with me. And we haven't even mentioned yet your daughter. good causes and it seems that it's actually I love the emphasis on the arts obviously that

that really resonates with me um and we haven't even mentioned yet your daughter so you have a we've been talking just before we start recording your daughter's now 27 yeah coming up 27 in two three weeks I think yeah wow it's like I didn't because you're you look so young to have a daughter that's like such a proper adult but you had her really young. So what was going on in your life when you had your first baby? Yeah, so I was 19 when I got pregnant. Instantly, absolutely excited. Do you know, I'm going to be completely honest,

it wasn't a decision that I set out to make, but I was so excited instantly, and I knew, I was like, this is incredible, I'm going to be a mum. Yeah, just um yeah I was 19 years old just I was in a band at the time I left the band to have a baby because it just wasn't wasn't a healthy lifestyle to be living while pregnant and yeah became a mum at 19. So when you were focusing on your involvement with La Pub how was that working with having a really small child do you know it actually worked really well because um i didn't go back to work until she was two and a half by which point she'd started nursery and it kind of fit really well because i'd take her to nursery

i'd go home and i'd nap for a few hours i'd pick pick her up from nursery. I'd spend the afternoon with her. I'd give her tea. I'd put her to bed. And then her dad would come round and I'd go to work. And then when she woke up in the morning, she barely even noticed I was gone for half of her time because it was just, you know, she was in bed. And it worked really well. And then my mum and my ex's parents were also really supportive

and they had her on Saturdays so you know we both still got to have a nice time as well as be parents I always used to say that um I was single and a mother but I was not a single mother because her dad was 100% in her life and always there so which was really nice yeah well I think that support that is so important especially as you're saying if you're trying to keep this real consistency and continuity in her life, but also build something for yourself and ultimately for her as well. And so did it feel quite funny to sort of have this circular thing of having her have a similar childhood in venues?

And did she pull pints at four? No, she did not pull pints at four. Not even for Monster Munch? No, not even for Monster Munch. We did end up in A&E once, though, at half nine in the morning because we went into the pub just to grab something and she managed to slip

and she got a big piece of glass stuck in her leg, as kids do. So I rushed her off to A&E and she said, we did it in the pub! And the doctor just stared at me and I was like, I work there, I wasn't in the pub and the doctor just stared at me and I was like I work there I wasn't in the pub at half nine with my three-year-old I'm so sorry and she was like

mummy takes me to the pub some mornings and I was like well not to drink not to drink yeah it was quite funny well I guess as well you've got a venue that's not like if you if it was called something else you know the fantasy garden I don't know it's somewhere else it's definitely yeah yeah so yeah that was uh that was fun oh but i suppose for her she's got it in her genes yeah like you did that thing of the community and being around people i think she couldn't care less about the beer and the serving beer aspect whereas i love that she loves the live music she's got that from me she really really she's if she's not at a gig she's playing a gig yeah because you said she's a

bass player she is yeah she's very cool in two bands did you say yeah two bands yeah excellent yeah they're both doing really well actually oh that's so good yeah it's really cute and do you keep up your music at all after you stop being a band? So 19 was when it stopped, was it, for that? So actually there's a nightclub in Newport. It's closed now, TJ's. I'm sure everybody's heard of the legendary TJ's. When John from TJ's sadly passed away, we did a big festival in his honour in Newport City Centre

and a load of the bands that were signed to TJ's records, including my own, reformed. And we did two gigs and I hated every second of it. Really? Well, I think it didn't help that the songs were written when I was 16, and they were about kissing boys in parks and drinking cider. Rhyming things with GCSEs. Yeah.

So I think standing on a stage at 34 and singing that was weird. But yeah, I absolutely hated it. We did The 100 club in London and someone came along and did a review and they were a big fan of what we were doing in the 90s and I think the review said something along the lines of I don't know what happened to Sam but she looks like the ground wants to swap wants to she wants the ground to swallow her up and eat her and as I read it I was like yeah he's right I hated it absolutely hated it wow it's really odd because when I left when I was pregnant I had every intention of going back because I thought I

loved it and I did love it but you're going back to it now I hated it wow that must have been excruciating you stood up there like you get excited you walk on it oh it's this again I've just remembered I really don't enjoy this actually yeah it was very strange and you have one of those things sometimes don't you where you're in the middle was very strange. And you have one of those things sometimes, don't you, where you're in the middle of doing it, so you're in the middle of singing a song and you're thinking, yeah, this is definitely not something I'm ever going to do again. We had two singers.

Emily, the other singer, she fully embraced getting back into it. And I remember looking over at the stage and she's jumping around and she's singing and she's having the time of her life. And I'm just stood there holding the microphone desperately trying to get through it, thinking no, no no yeah I know that was done for me well I think there is a sort of um misapprehension that people who perform who then stop performing are always sort of desperate to get back into it but actually there's a lot about it that I think if you don't love it you just leave it behind you know I also used to get so nervous I'd throw up

for the entire day before a gig oh Oh, you don't want that. Yeah, like literally the day before the gig I'd start feeling sick. The afternoon before the gig I'd start being sick. And I mean, in the 90s, the second I stepped on the stage, it was gone. I was having the best time of my life. Yeah. But then when I was older, that sick feeling in my stomach was still there. And I was like, yeah, this is not for me.

It's funny, isn't it? The idea of the the nerves and the adrenaline it just it sometimes as well it can get worse and worse it can kind of build that feeling but in a way it's quite nice that you got to sort of finish the conversation with yourself and do these kids and go yeah and I was right it's back to managing I don't get nervous about public speaking I'll happily I do panels at like um music conferences and things absolutely fine speaking I'll sit there and panels at like um music conferences and things absolutely fine speaking i'll sit there and speak for hours you can't shut me up but singing no done absolutely

not fair enough i completely understand that and i think it's i say it's good you got to finish was your daughter there when you did your gig she was yeah was she like oh mom yeah i think my sister bought her and i remember catching her eye and it's looking at me like this is so embarrassing so embarrassing all my friends from school are here because it was in the center of newport on an outdoor stage big free festival so yeah all those school friends were there like that's your mum but we were talking um again before we start recording but i was saying that I think having a child when a lot of your friends, maybe before they'd had a kid,

means you've almost got, like, the communal child. I bet your daughter's got relationships with lots of your friends. Yeah. Which I think sometimes when you have children later on and your friends are all having them, it's nice for you because you've got the camaraderie of your friends going through the same thing. But then your kids don't necessarily get that time

as individuals in the same way. Yeah, they don same way spoil as the only child of the group yes there's the spoiling aspect but also i suppose you get you get privy to a lot of like adult conversation i think when you're the eldest or the you know the only one yeah and you have to sit at the table and you have to sort of pull your weight a little bit yeah with that that was my childhood as well actually i think um i think it's quite funny that my daughter definitely grew up in a very adult environment and she grew up very sensible and I think sometimes we protect kids too much because my daughter grew up around people drinking smoking swearing because that was the world she was in you know when she was 15 people would swear around

her freely and things like that and then she didn't start drinking until she was 19 she didn't swear very much at all she still doesn't swear that much you know I think sometimes we can protect children too much and then when they hit 18 they've never experienced these things and they go out into the world and it's too much for them and they yeah they go too far because they've never actually seen anybody you know exercise restraint around alcohol and things like that and it's it's really interesting to watch I can always tell in the pub the kids whose parents brought them up responsibly around alcohol and the kids that have parents that try and pretend alcohol doesn't exist and the kids that try and pretend alcohol those parents try and

pretend alcohol doesn't exist they get too drunk they. They don't know. They don't understand. So I think, yeah, bringing up kids in an adult environment can actually be really useful for them. I think there's so much wisdom in that, actually. I think that's super smart, and I think you're right, because I think, as you say, that sort of mollycoddle protection. It's also about letting them meet people who've got different views, letting them manage all these situations where you've got to just not kind of jump into extreme one way or the other

and just rub alongside people and manage. And I suppose it also goes back to what you were saying a little bit about with venues where the passion is what leads it, but you've also got to be able to run a business. And I think art and commerce have always been slightly uneasy bedfellows because you feel like, well, I want to float up here, but something needs to tether it. But when it actually works hand in hand,

actually you can get things to really be solid in the foundations work. And I guess you don't get to be profitability guru if you don't start to manage. It's a fantasy title. It's a brilliant title you should definitely have t-shirt or something yeah some kind of i think a badge and a cap definitely if i was any kind of guru i would definitely be telling people about it quite fun going back to like exposing children to other views i dragged my daughter into a refugee camp

when she was 14 and we went once a month for two years and we used to go over to the jungle in Calais once a month and she is the most open, accepting, wonderful person because of the experiences she had and I think that was something working in the pub also gave me the freedom to do because it's such an unstructured way of living yeah that I was able to go right we're closed Sunday Monday Tuesday

we've got no gigs get in the van we're off and we'd just go over to the jungle and just and you know and she'd be there and she'd be in the warehouse and she'd I found she was about 15 and I found her asleep in a pile of sleeping bags she was supposed to be sorting and I was like wake up get up you know and those that's just those experiences that we can give our children I think they're really important as well just to expose them to the world that's so amazing and you were doing it such regularity as well it's not like you just went one time and said see this is what some people are experiencing actually we did it once a month for two years wow yeah that's amazing and just the two of you traveling there and becca's wise no it was um us

two my husband and we wrote random staff in amazing like what are you doing this weekend nothing want to come to calais yeah all right then and we'd just because we had this great big blue minibus yeah and we'd just fill it up with sleeping bags and then we'd just get an airbnb in calais fill the van with as many volunteers as we can, rock up at the warehouse, get a load of work done and go home again. And I loved it. I think that's so brilliant, Sam. And what a fantastic thing as well that you're sort of lifting a story off the newspaper and actually let's actually go and be part of this.

Let's go and not only just see what's going on, but also engage and do something and work there. I mean, that's amazing. Plus you get all that time travelling there and back where you're presumably chatting about stuff and all the conversations. And long road trips, especially when they're teenagers. So that's a bit 14 to 16, 15 to 17.

You can get them. Yes, you're both staring out the front. But the conversation's quite free-flowing. It's quite non-judgmental, isn't it? Especially with other people in the car as well. It kind of opens it up. God, I think that's brilliant. I'd like to do something like that with my kids, actually.

I think that's an amazing thing to do. Take them over. There's still a camp in Dunkirk. Just turn up. And how easy is it to sort of set up, actually just heading there and turning up? I mean, I could put you in touch with a charity that run a warehouse in Dunkirk really easily, because we still support them. We do Green Man Festival every year and we do salvage. We take tents and sleeping bags over to Dunkirk once a year now. Incredible.

Yes, Charity Board roots. Just head on over. Let's continue that conversation after this one because I think that could be really... I'm desperate to get back. We'll go together. Okay. Well, because the other place I was thinking we could go together

is to one of the gigs that's on the United by Music tour because there's so many good things happening yeah so I was thinking if one of us is the uh National Lottery player with the ticket the other one could be the plus one yeah I can bring the Monster Munch yeah I'll make sure there's both flavors yes that's probably more important than the Monster Munch um what gigs are you I know you said about the band you've got coming to your venue but are there any other things you would be up for seeing i'd really love to see sam rider yeah that's really not gonna happen it's fully sold out and even as a guru we don't get any special treatment but yeah i think that would be really really interesting because obviously

i did no idea never heard of sam rider until the eurovision so never had a chance to see sam in a small venue before yeah so I think seeing him in Chinneries is going to be really really special yeah I think those venues are really special when you do those gigs I mean I the other day so I did a gig where I played at Glastonbury so you've got the pyramid stage huge and then the next day was there for the next day I did a gig in a little venue it was about 300 people and I think it's really good for keeping you quite sharp actually because you're not there's no nothing to hide behind there's no production so really it just strips everything back and you really hear the songs you know it's really good for exposing your

voice but also you can see everybody's faces when you're in the crowd you know and ditto when you're the one watching yeah you feel like oh wow we're actually all part of something. Yeah. And it's like a chemical thing, isn't it? It's like being on a date with someone or something. You've got this kind of like real symbiosis of the two of you. I think the only bad thing is if it's going wrong, you can't pull it back from a small space. It's very, I've seen bands do it.

Yeah. But it's very difficult. Once you've lost an audience in a small space, it's so difficult to get them back. Oh, yeah, that's true. Or I guess with comedy as well. Comedy nights as well. We do comedy, yeah. Comedies.

I don't like comedy events. Really? I get too nervous for the performer because they're so... Exposed. It feels like they're almost naked they don't have they don't even have a guitar no it's just them and the guts that takes I know stand up and tell stories like one of my best friend's husbands is a comedian and he's a brilliant comedian I can't watch I'm just like no what are you doing what are you doing up there on your own

I'm terrified for you and it's yeah i don't like it yeah i think um i've had it where um where i'm watching someone do comedy and i feel like if i make eye contact with them i might body swap and then i find i have to finish yeah they're set and i start i take it to such an extreme i usually try and prepare some very light material that i might be able to start with just terrified they're gonna pick on you i think part of it is not wanting to be picked on by them. Because comedians do pick people out and part of it is absolute fear for them. I think it's one of...

For me, it has to be one of the bravest art forms. You've got nothing to hide behind. You've got... At any point, it can just go off schedule. It can go off script. You have no clue what someone in the audience is going to do or say, and you have to react. It's so true.

At least as a musician, you can kind of ignore that, because that's not your job. But I guess if you're a comedian, then that is what you thrive on. You're thinking, I've got what I need, and I'm going to. And to be fair to them, with your anxiety about watching them, I think it's their job to reassure you that they're okay.

Yeah. Maybe you need to watch some comics who make you feel like they're fine. We had Mike Wozniak come and do a set. Oh, yeah.

And that was, he did this incredible story, like a style of comedy that's like an hour-long story, one long story. And it was incredible. And I really enjoyed it, but I still had this deep-seated, is he going to start start picking on me at the back of my mind I've had it happen

actually I've had that where I've walked in Edinburgh festival just had it all go wrong with the air picking on me it's horrible feeling you feel very tiny and also you don't have a microphone so it's actually kind of slightly unfair yeah yeah if you're gonna pick on me at least let me come back at you at the same volume yes exactly well to bring it back to the good causes in national history i think we should probably reiterate why what is happening with the national history funding such an amazing thing like this tour why it's so brilliant that these grassroot venues are benefiting um i just could go on for five hours about how incredible the music venue trust is and the work that they do and the work that they've done for the last nine years they're they basically

I think grassroots music venues pre-music venue trust we all thought we were out there alone and everyone puts their best side on social media so I was sat in Newport wondering why I was struggling to make things work watching venues in Southampton and to the outside it looked like they were doing incredibly well so you're sat there and you're thinking I'm doing something wrong and then Music Venue Trust put us all into a network where we communicate and we talk and we share resources and we share experiences and um we figured out that actually no it's the way that grassroots music venues as a sector are treated that's the problem because across europe grassroots music venues are hugely funded and subsidized by the government and there's no funding or subsidy in the uk um you know it's just little things like that and there's no there's no respect from the big arenas.

I mean, if you take Adele, for example, I don't want to even guess how much money Adele has made. Yeah, what's generated. Yeah, what's generated. But the venue in Cardiff that Adele played on her first tour closed because they were short £4,000 for their business rates and they had to declare bankruptcy. Oh, my goodness.

And it's things like that. And the fact that that sector is now, by the National Lottery and their players, being recognised and funded, that's what's really important. And that is, it's the first step towards the respect that the grassroots music venues in the UK deserve being actually being delivered.

Well, what you said about how it works in a lot of Europe compared to here is, you know, you said little things like that that's actually huge, isn't it? It's massive. It's so huge. And I think if we could shift

the conversation a little bit about how people regard the venues and what's actually going on behind the scenes, it would be, I think people would actually be really keen to keep supporting because it's a lovely thing

to be part of, but it also does does it needs more than goodwill yeah it needs money yes it needs money and i think another thing music venue trust did so well is um pre-music venue trust the grassroots music sector was known as the toilet circuit yes because the venues were considered to be dirty i remember that and it's it's awful. Yeah. These venues are run by people that love music and love their venues and treat them well. Yeah.

It's the fault of the system that they might not be flash and fancy and all shiny. Yeah. You know, they're not dirty, they're not smelly,

they're just a little bit run down because we don't have the same money. No, you're right. That's such snobbery actually. Yeah. You're right. I remember that.

When I started, it would be like we're doing a toilet tour. Yeah. I was like, what's that? Yeah. And then Mark from EasyBend Trust, that was his first main thing, was we are getting rid of that. And they've done that, and it's incredible.

And we are now a sector that is slowly gaining respect year on year on year. God, I actually completely forgot about that until you mentioned it. Yeah, it's awful, isn't it? That was absolutely how I got introduced to it in the 90s yeah it's awful isn't it i mean it's all right the um the forum in tunbridge wells did used to be a toilet but it's not a toilet anymore so it's still not okay to call it a toilet now but yeah it's just it's just so strange it's the

association yeah it's an inbuilt kind of a we'll get through this bit so we can get to the next bit whereas actually what actually happens and actually you know as I said at the beginning my friend Ed Harcourt who's doing this tour he said you know these are the gigs that actually become really special and he said he has countless nights he can't remember and memories he'll never forget

and I think that's actually what it's all about it's like this thing of going somewhere where it's really special and you do have to work that bit harder. I mean, I think it always feels good actually when you get to either watch someone in those venues or you get to perform there no matter what stage in your career you're at.

I think artists pick up skills in grassroots music venues. Yes, definitely. That they wouldn't be able to play arenas without. Yes. If you didn't have a grassroots music venue to learn your trade in you know it's like i don't know i guess it's like sending a plumber into a huge massive plumbing issue and saying fix it yeah without any training without any college without any you know any input

from anyone around them yeah these these grassroots music venues they are training circuits yeah and there are people in them that have been doing it like myself for 30 years yeah and you know we can we can help we can give you tips we can we can reassure you that you've done well we can you know and that's that's a really important experience that every artist when they're starting out needs they need they need to play these venues they need to learn from these venues and they need to have the people in these venues like my husband he's our sound engineer as i said and you know he'll be working with kids that are 16 17 they don't they barely even know how to plug their guitars in yeah you know if they don't come to the pub and have matt just just show them quite quite that goes in there mate you know and that's And that's learning. It's not patronising.

It's not. They're kids. They need to learn these things. Yeah, absolutely. And it's training. And it's mentoring as well. Yeah, it's mentoring. And it's training that's completely unfunded by the government.

Yes. Which is where we need to get back into funding the venues, please. And how do your folks in your family feel about what you do, seeing as you started off so little with the pint pulling? Yeah, my mum's quite proud she's um she's always on my facebook she's um she's 78 now and i'll post a gig and she'll be like can i come and i'm like it's not really for you mum it's not really for you it's not one for you you know you don't really want to come and see a death metal band maybe she does yeah maybe she does yeah and what about if your daughter had thought about doing the same

thing would it be something you would if someone daughter had thought about doing the same thing? Would it be something you would, if someone was thinking now about managing a venue or getting involved with it, would you recommend it? I would make sure they don't want to make money. Okay. Don't do it to make money. Sounds like being a musician as well.

Yeah, don't do it to make money. If you want to make money, do not run a grassroots music venue. If you want to have the most incredible life and the most incredible experiences and make the most incredible friends, then yes, go run a grassroots music venue. But if you want to be rich, don't. Well, I'd always pick the other one anyway.

I think that's a life well lived, you know, being part of something. I wouldn't change a thing. Also, it's such a legacy. You know, there'll be so many bands, artists, punters, part of that community, you could say, they owe so much to it. I think another thing, grassroots music venues support bands

in other ways just than being a stage. Two of our staff are actually in bands supporting the Foo Fighters on their next tour next year. Oh, wow. Because working in a grassroots music venue gives them the flexibility to say, I can't work this three weeks, I'm off on tour. Yeah. And that's another way that the grassroots music venue support the industry and needs to be recognized yeah

oh i think that's all the good stuff actually i bet you're brilliant with your guru ring if it's a verb like that i do love it yeah because i think it's so a lot of it as well about venues like yours is the generosity of people with experience and wanting to share it with others and actually help them and avoid pitfalls it's all about actually like we've if you succeed we all succeed you know it kind of and it reflects areas it's about literally places you pass on the high street or down a back alley it's actually part of like the whole scene like that's where your youth culture is isn't it that's like the next thing and if you don't show young kids who are interested in music that it's something that resonates with you then they just you just lose their interest you know yeah we we partner with newport city council a

couple of times a year and do outdoor events and they're always free we always just check a stage in the middle of the city and one of my favorite ones was um we put on a bluegrass band from oregon and they had a double bass player and we just chucked them in the middle of the city square and there were like 30 40 kids and they were all just stood around going what is that mate what is that mate and jesse was like oh look it's a double bass and they were like whoa mate and i was like this is really you know we've really showed people that there are other instruments than guitars which I think is really important because it's really I mean I I love artists like Tom Grennan and Sam Fender and things and they all came up for the grassroots circuit which is great but there are other instruments and there

are other things that people can do and I think showcasing those is just as important yeah yeah and actually for kids being exposed to seeing people play really well, as you say, other instruments, they get a bit mesmerised, don't they? They're just stopping their tracks like, wow, what's going on there? That's the beauty of music. We're so lucky, aren't we, to be surrounded by something that's got that life force. That pull. Yes, and that pulse.

And are there any things you're looking forward to this year, any gigs that you're hoping to go to outside of the ones of your i'm going to green man festival i love green man festival we do the salvage but that's only on the monday we generally just sit around and um we sell t-shirts and vintage to raise money for a couple of refugee charities but it's mostly just sitting around and watching bands and yeah i'm really excited i'm excited to see spiritualized i haven't seen them since the 90s oh my goodness yeah there's a bit of a 90s revival at the excited I'm excited to see Spiritualized I haven't seen them since the 90s oh my goodness yeah there's a bit of a 90s revival at the moment I went to see Pulp the other day

I'm going to see Pulp tonight tonight in Cardiff oh you're going to love it so good well you know there's still time for that revival of Disco if you're okay I'm done done

absolutely done but no Bob Villan is playing Green Man Bob Villan did the National Lottery Revive Live tour two years ago. So I think this whole thing, it benefits artists as well. Because they get to tour without them worrying about the cost of fuel and the cost of van hire and everything else. So it's not just venues that's benefiting, it's artists too. It's building careers.

I know Nova Twins came up on the Revive Live tour as well, you know, and it's really important. know Nova Twins came up on the Revive Live tour as well you know and it's it's really important yeah yeah absolutely and as you say like that underwriting is it's actually really hard to articulate how significant that is yeah because people can get frustrated oh why isn't my artist touring but you know there is a bottom line to all of it and so many tours run at a loss so the fact that this is something that is not that's something that's take that pressure is taken away I think people don't realize that the artists that they respect at a level that they think are earning they're not earning no you know we there are artists that they're playing 500 capacity venues yeah they're still doing shifts in the pub when they're not

absolutely touring and people don't understand that i think people don't understand that there isn't any money or financial security in music until you hit a much bigger audience than people assume you know that's where the money starts i don't know didn't really come out right but you know people think artists know when they're not they're just not yeah i think you're absolutely right and i think um well i would say a very big thank you to all the National Lottery players for what they're doing for the United Bail Music Show. I think it's wonderful. And I'm all for it.

And I'm thrilled to speak to you. And I'd love to come and play your venue one time. I would love to have you. Yeah? Cool. You should come for Newport Pride. We've got Newport Pride in September. Come on. You did Cardiff Pride, didn't you?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, come to Newport Pride. It'll be fun. We'll put you in the pub and not tell anyone. Excellent. Secret show. okay you supply the hub and not tell anyone excellent secret show yay what a great woman thank you so much sam it was an absolute pleasure to talk to you um and it's as i said it's really nice to hear the other side of the coin really and what it's

like to run a venue and i'd love to advice to other people thinking of running a venue or just how to be um clever with making it work obviously you know you always need the passion but you also need the business and else and it is no small feat that the pub is going as strong as it is for as long as it has that's kudos to you sam kudos and i want to thank the national lottery for making this episode happen it's thanks to you you brought sam and i together so just remember every time you play the national lottery on app or in store you actually get more from your ticket whether that's supporting good causes over the uk or you know brilliant offers like the united by music tour you can bring a plus one you know for free to one of the many many gigs all over the country from, you know, brilliant offers like the United by Music tour. You can bring a plus one, you know, for free to one of the many, many gigs all over the country from now until

September. If you're looking for someone, I'd love to come with you. Just visit unitedbymusic.live. You can find out more. It's just amazing what the National Lottery does for people. And it's been a complete pleasure to explore all that's happening this summer. And just cheers to live music and grassroots venues. Cheers to Sam. Cheers to you this summer. And just cheers to live music and grassroots venues. Cheers to Sam. Cheers to you for listening. Cheers to Ella May for doing my artwork, Richard for doing my editing,

Claire Jones for doing the production. But, you know, mainly you. If it doesn't work without that, I'm talking to a void. So yes, I'll see you next week for more fun. Lots of love. See you soon. Bye. Thank you.