Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 11: Nadiya Hussain

Episode Date: October 19, 2020

Welcome back to Spinning Plates! Series two starts here. Full candour - for some strange reason I wrote this blurb bit in the third person when I started uploading the first series but now, full disclosure - it’s me, Sophie! First person comes a lot more naturally to me. Anyhoo, for the first episode of the series I talk to chef and presenter Nadiya Hussain. Nadiya and I talked about family expectations versus career ambitions, anxiety about falling in love with your newborn baby and how she actually wanted to pretend she'd died so she wouldn't have to do Bake Off!  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Woohoo! Hello! We are back, series two of Spinning Plates podcast. This is exciting. Oh, this is lovely, yeah yeah i've been having a nice time in the last five or six weeks or so since the last episode was published um interviewing lots

of lovely women having lovely conversations a lot of them your suggestions so thank you if you're if you put a comment for me with um a suggestion of who to speak to you thank you very much i followed up on loads of them so hopefully this series you'll see some names of people that you're hoping to listen to. And how have you been? How have the last five weeks or so been treating you? I hope you're feeling okay. I hope you're keeping upbeat. It's, you know, it's still a very tough time out there. There are reasons to be cheerful, but, you know, it's, I feel a little bit like when you're a kid and you're trying to run really fast and then someone puts their hand on your forehead, so you're sort of running on the spot. There's been a little bit of when you're a kid and you're trying to run really fast and then someone puts their hand on your forehead so you're sort of running on the spot there's been a little

bit of that going on but you know I am lucky there's you know lots of projects and things to look forward to and I'm sure like you I just really thrive on momentum it turns out this year I've learned that massively um I'm really trying not to ask the question about whether you've been spending time with other podcasts since we last saw each other because if I do ask you if you've been seeing other podcasts I know that then I'm going to want to ask the name of those podcasts and how frequently you're spending time with them and that kind of thing I just don't think it's healthy I think we should focus on the positive we're reunited and if you tell me I'm your favorite I'll believe you I will I'm a sucker for it.

Thank you for coming back to me. Thank you for tuning in. Today's guest, you want to hear about that? Lovely, lovely chat I had with Nadia Hussain. I wanted to speak to her. She's on my list for ages because, you know, she's always intrigued me. She's clearly so warm and likeable, but she's also got this kind She's clearly so warm and likable,

but she's also got this kind of stillness in her and patience and bucket loads of wisdom. She's become a spokesperson for anxiety and speaks very candidly about her own anxiety, struggles to bond with her baby when she had her first baby, but also lovely things like her family life, how she fell in love with her husband that came through she met through an arranged marriage um how she has her muslim faith and on her own terms rather than maybe quite such a traditional upbringing she had um yeah there's there's just loads of topics we covered and most importantly we spoke about food

which is just always my favorite thing to talk about. So lucky me. Thank you also to Nadia. So with all the conversation I've been having for this podcast, they've always been in person, which is my favorite. But Nadia was shielding. So we did it remotely. And it was my first time of doing it remotely. And it was a bloody nightmare. So invisible hats off to Nadia for sticking it out with me. She's incredibly patient. I think we lost our connection about eight times. you're someone that works for clean feed please go back to your calming time sort it out it was i'm sure i was doing something wrong but i like upgraded my subscription during the chat and all that kind of thing so it just didn't work it was just horrible in fact it was kind of traumatic i've never met nadia and i thought that's just not what i wanted

to associate me with. But anyway, it doesn't matter. We got through it. We had a lovely conversation. We managed to keep the thread going. I think we were genuinely having a nice time talking to each other. And enough of my what's become quite a characteristic waffle, I think. Thank you so much for coming back to me.

Or if you're joining me, thank you. Enjoy the chat with Nadia. See you on the other side. Woo-hoo! How have you found your... We'll probably get the lockdown chat out the way. How's everything been for you with lockdown? I've been good. I mean, it's been better than I expected, actually,

because I think at first it was really stressful. I found it really stressful because I was just like, how are we going to manage the kids? And, like, I've got a nearly 14 year old nearly 13 year old and she'll little girl be 10 so they're a little bit older so in some ways it was it was okay then you know it's harder to entertain little ones because they need more kind of just a bit more interaction they'll say that but like my 14 year old will come in every 10 minutes and say, hey mom. And I'm like, okay, go, go, go, go, go, go.

So like, don't be surprised if you see, if you hear children and doorbells and Amazon orders and just like, it will happen. So yeah, I mean, I know you've got little ones as well. So I do. Yeah, I've got five.

So my eldest is 16. He had a birthday during the lockdown and then they're 11, 8, 4 and 1. So I'm totally with you on the little ones being quite. It's the first bit of lockdown. I just thought there's absolutely no way I'm going to be able to do this. And I didn't plan. Do your older kids help out with the little ones more?

My eldest is pretty brilliant, actually. He's really good with the youngest. But the kind of middle three, there's quite a lot of dynamics that go on. And I think for all of them, they missed having school and a place where they could just be their own person. Because obviously at home,

the family dynamic is so set. So they kind of missed that bit where they could just, you know, like my middle one who's 80, Ray, he just was like, oh, I just miss being able to just be Ray. Because he was always the youngest of the eldest ones and the eldest of the smallest.

I think he just found it a bit discombobulating, really. And he actually took to dressing up a lot, I think, just to sort of find his own little place again. Yeah. But I don't know if you saw it, but there's a guy called John Ronson, a writer who I really love, and he has a lot of social anxiety issues

and he's always very open about it but he said with the lockdown he found it strangely calming I wondered if you found that as well because I said it actually took a lot of the prayer firstly because something cataclysmic has happened which he was always worried about anyway but secondly he didn't have to see people and do things and be at things yeah it's really odd because as somebody who suffers with um panic disorder um social situations always make me stress me out a little bit anyway. And I think because when you work in the public eye, there's this idea that you're naturally just very good at just being in crowds or with people. And that's not true at all.

No. And everything I do is crowd-facing and meeting lots of people. But it's because with my panic disorder, my natural reaction is to do everything that the government asked us to do at the beginning of March, which is stay away from people, stay at home, don't go out. And the government was then telling me to do everything that I was already feeling, which felt so counterintuitive

because actually what I wanted them, nobody's ever told me to do everything that I was already feeling, which felt so counterintuitive because actually what I wanted them, nobody's ever told me to do, you know, I've always been told to do the opposite. Don't, you know, go out, socialize more, try and interact a little bit more. And now the government was telling me, well, you have to, you have to do all of those things. So I had nowhere to go. It's like, well, you're already telling me what I would naturally do anyway. So I was like, well, this isn't, this isn't this isn't helping yeah um so I found that really really odd and I think I really struggled the first few weeks with the kids at home and really worrying about their education it took a good four weeks before I kind of just said oh do you know what I am never going to get this time back again exactly let them let them wake up at half nine let them finish finish at half two. What's the big deal?

Like, who cares if we have some cake for dinner? Who cares? Like, literally all the rules and boundaries that I'd set up, they're not gone, but I'm too much of a control freak to completely let go of all of the rules. But there's definitely been a relaxing of rules, which I've actually really enjoyed. Works out well. Yeah. So one of the reasons I've actually really enjoyed. Works out well. Yeah.

So one of the reasons I want to speak to you is because I was reading your book and there's so much in it that I think is really relatable because when you first become a mum, it's so easy to feel like you're playing the part of all these different roles but you sort of lose yourself in the middle of it. you think that's a fair fair way to describe how you felt after you had your first baby yeah I think I I was so young when I think back now how young I was only 21 so I just turned 21 after I'd had him so that's I think back now and I look at 21 year olds now and they're all on TikTok it's like what was I doing at 21 I was breastfeeding not sleeping completely exhausted at 21 so I've I kind of look

back now and I think it was a brave choice to have a child so young but it was one that I don't regret at all because you know 35 I feel great you know I've got a you know my kids have grown up and I've got still energy, which is fantastic. It feels really good to be at that point in my life. But certainly if you told me at 21 that, look, you're going to love having them around, you know, you're going to love every moment of this even more when you're 35. I wouldn't have believed, I wouldn't have believed anyone because it was, it does, there is, you know, we grow up with this um certainly for me growing up in the culture that I did you know you have a set role you you you you know you are your father's daughter you're your

husband's wife and then you are your son's mother and that's like and there's always there's always somebody above you there's always some you are always somebody something but you there's never anyone who when do you just be you And that's something I think through life, I've had to really kind of constantly, I've had to constantly kind of dig just a little bit more. There are moments where I am just somebody's mum. You know, I'm just my children's mother and I am just my husband's wife and I am my parents' daughter.

And that's something that I've just learned to accept that that is who I am. I can't take that away. But what happens in those moments is that I forget that I can just be me. And I have to take moments in my life where I just have to kind of drag myself away and say, look, what makes you you? But in the same breath, they make me who I am as well. So I can't take away from the fact that I'm all of those things but you know it's it's a massive battle trying to find a bit of you or eking a little bit of your eking a little bit of

yourself out of all of that um and that's been a struggle that I've always had and what I've learned to accept especially through writing this book is that actually they are they make up such a big part of who I am that there's no point in denying that um but there are moments where I have to step back and say look you don't have to always be doing something for someone yeah you can just you can just be you and I suppose I'm on that journey even now um at 35 you know I'm still on that journey where I'm constantly kind of trying to find myself and um maybe I've yet to maybe I need to climb a mountain to do it but I'm not sure well I think I feel like that a bit myself at 41 I think um you know there's so

much you want so much to be a good mother and to have a happy marriage and you know be thriving with your work stuff if that's what you're doing, and all those things, and be a good friend. It can be really... You can find yourself just spread very thin. And I think especially, it's kind of been highlighted in the last six months, but when I'm home, I'm always very accessible to everybody. Because I go and I work,

I feel like at home I should always be accessible. And because of that that I couldn't suddenly change the dynamic so I think it's it's something I've sort of realized recently really that I've got to be a bit better with boundaries actually I don't think the kids mind that much if you're quite clear about it I think it's just when you don't really make it a thing then they just think well no you're on tap really um yeah I think I think because like you because when I work away I'm not here so they like I have this god-awful fear that you know they're not eating they're not sleeping everything's going like I feel like they're just like that part that house party in Mrs Doubtfire

that's what I imagine in my head you know at the very beginning that house party I'm like that's what they're doing that's what they're doing doing. They're eating pizza and ice cream before bed. And they've got animals in the house. And they are having a great old party. And that's kind of what I imagine in my head. That will be true one day, Nadia. It will. Oh, gosh.

Oh, gosh. I've got all that to look forward to. Yes. So, but... Oh, hello? What the hell does that mean? Spinning plates has gone away. Ah!

Oh, Richard. Darling, I don't understand what's happened. It says spinning plates has gone away. We were in the middle of a chat and it just went, spinning plates has gone away. I don't know what that means. Is she gone? Yeah, but I think she'll be back.

Oh, will she be back when it says connect, when she's just there? Okay, don't worry. In that case... she's just there? Okay, don't worry. In that case... It's still recording. Yeah, don't worry. She's gone twice already. This is the third time. It's just so frustrating because it just suddenly goes...

And it just pops away. But she'll be back. She'll just click on the link again. Should I send the new link? No, it's fine. It's actually what happened... Do you remember when I was doing mine? It happened to me.

Oh, is she on her phone? It might be when she gets a text. I did say that. I'll say it again just in case. Is it an iPhone? I don't know. Because if you go like that and press the moon... Okay.

I'm here, I can hear you. Hello. I was just talking to richard because i panicked but i think does it sound like it maybe gets caught up disconnected when you get a phone call or something or a text or anything i don't know i haven't seen if i've got any texts i don't think i've got any oh don't worry you know what we can battle through this anyway oh Oh, yeah. Is it an iPhone that you're on? What, my phone? Yeah. No, Samsung.

Oh. I don't know those. There's a way of turning it on, so turning your notifications off. I love it. I could do that now. Well, if it's easy. Let me just, yeah, let me just go on to...

Okay, let's turn everything off. Off. Everything's off. Wonderful. Like literally gone. Okay, let's give it a go. Gone, gone. Don't call me.

You know what? I've been really lucky up to now. And this is... Thank you. I've been able to do all the chats face to face. So this is my first frustrating foray into the world of... Anyway, it doesn't matter. As you say, we're used to interruptions and picking up where you left off.

I've just turned notifications off of everything. Sorry, Nadia. I won't keep you too long, I promise. I just have to remember to turn them back on. Yeah, exactly. You'll be thinking, oh, I'm having a really peaceful day. Yeah. This is great.

So, did your life change? It I did um I did Strictly Come Dancing years ago and uh it's the closest thing I've got as a kind of comparison to to what you did in terms of like that kind of show and um it was such a like traumatic and formative and exhilarating but big thing that I can't I don't even call it that at home I always call it the dancing program because otherwise my family would get really like oh because it takes all your family along with it and I wonder is it the same for you with Bake Off do you have like your own word for it in your house so that you're not always saying when I did Bake Off? Yeah I don't we don't really use that word anymore uh on my kids just say the show like yeah they say on the

show when you are on the show we don't talk about it and I suppose since then I've done a lot of shows so they don't really like they don't even watch the stuff that I do so to them they don't really care like they don't care that to them it's just a job they don't care that this is my life and this is what I do they don't I force them to watch my cookery shows I'm like come on just one episode come on 15 minutes 15 minutes and I can see them like slowly I can see them just going after 15 I'm like go on just go just leave just leave it's fine yeah I'm gonna try not to be offended go on off you go it's kind of it's kind of a comforting dynamic that isn't it you sort of want that for them really you want them to be a bit we

don't want them to turn into fans of what we're up to I think that'd be a bit peculiar really yeah I think it is and I think it does it and doing something like Bake Off you do there is a you don't really do it alone You do it with the people that are closest to you. Absolutely. Because there's so much secrecy and you can't, especially with something like Bake Off, you can't talk about it. You can't tell lots of people that you're on it because you don't get announced until weeks, weeks, months later.

So there is this massive kind of bubble of secrecy. And it's like I did, there was a point where I was like, oh my goodness, my children are going to be compulsive liars. They're going to be compulsive liars. did there was a point where I was like oh my goodness my children are going to be compulsive liars they're going to be compulsive liars and I really was scared because I was like guys this is when you can lie and then it's like now you don't have to lie I'm like oh my god I've messed my children up luckily five years later they don't seem too bad like I think they know uh the difference between right and wrong um but yeah it just it does consume you and it does take away from you and I up until the point I did Bake Off I was a stay-at-home mum

so um they were living in a world where I was just you know she's here one minute and she's just gone every weekend for 10 weeks um so that was very odd for them. Yeah, but from the outside looking in it looked like that moment in your life was really pivotal because I know your book was called Finding My Voice but reading through it I felt like you had a real clarity of your voice from when you were really little actually

about how you felt about things and the bits of your mum and dad's marriage and your upbringing that you thought, you know, you could see what resonated with you and the bits that you thought you might leave behind. But maybe it just takes that time just to find something about you. But giving yourself the feeling entitled to actually being heard and being, you know, more extrovert with what you're thinking.

I think if I think about myself as a child and and how I go I think about how much I used to pester my dad I think there was something about me that always wanted change whatever that was like that need to be maybe different or or to stand out because I think when you're one of six when you said that you've got five kids I know what it's like to be in the middle. I know what it's like to be the youngest of the eldest and the eldest of the youngest. And somewhere in there, you kind of, what makes, what's your, I was talking to my husband very recently about like, what's my USP? Like, what's special about me? You know, I'm not, like I grew up in a family of you know I'm one of six you know the eldest is always going to be the eldest the youngest is always going to be the baby yeah and you know I've got a brother and sister who are very sick as children so they were

sick so they had they had that was their thing and that's how they you know that's where they got loads of attention and I'd question everything and my dad absolutely hated that but I suppose that was me in the making that was who I was always going to be. And I suppose because in adulthood, I took on the traditional roles that I never wanted to as a... I used to watch my mum and think, is that it? Every aunt, every cousin, everybody that I know, every woman, they just always had one role.

It was young, get married, have children and be a housewife and I just kind of didn't want I just never wanted that for myself I just felt like there were I had so much more to give because you know I started writing at a young age you know really got into um slam poetry so I kind of had lots to give and it just felt like such a like I felt like I don't want to I felt like I felt wasted I felt wasted I was like why why would I just want to be what my mum is and I'd never I don't want to I never want to put my mum down because she worked really hard to raise our family and she did her the best job she could with the very little that she had and I never ever want to put that put her down but I always wanted

more for myself and more for my sisters and just more. Because I was watching my peers, you know, go on to university, have careers, have jobs. And I kind of aspired for all of those, to have all of those things. And I didn't think that was, in my kind of head, I didn't think that that was too much or too big a dream to achieve. And in the end, you know, I never went to university. I wasn't allowed to go to university. As the first girl to get into university, I wasn't allowed because there's too much you know being first generation British and parents who were immigrants and grandparents who were afraid of the country that they lived in they were scared to let me go out into this world that they knew nothing about so like at the time I was angry but

like now I understand their fears better as a parent um but you know I wasn't I mean you you wouldn't it's funny isn't it how things can change just in the course of one generation because presumably you would never think of anything like that with your own kids in terms of putting any restrictions or expectations on them like that no absolutely not but this is like I see this world as mine like I see this country as mine my parents didn't see that. So I understand where they were slightly blindsided by the fact that I wanted to go off to university in a world that they didn't really understand or enjoy. And, you know, they were, you know, they grew up with

racism, you know, being abused and, you know, they locking their doors after a certain time because of the abuse they were going to get. And quite, you know, quite a lot of racist abuse my parents had and so did my grandparents. So, you know, to them, that was the world. They never wanted me to be a part of that world because they were afraid of it. So I totally get that. But this is, you know, this is my country. This is where I was born. This is home for me. So, and it's home for my children. So it's not a place that I fear. I'm not scared of it. So certainly I wouldn't put those restrictions on my children but it led me to become it led me to a path that I kind of almost wanted to avoid which was to be a young housewife to be a mom and and I think I always battled with that I always struggled

with that and for me Bake Off had to be that pivotal moment because I got to then be in that moment where I did that speech people always asked me me and said, oh, did you rehearse that speech? It's absolutely, how would I ever say, yeah, I'm like, I've got a three-tier wedding cake to make. I had not rehearsed, I hadn't rehearsed that speech. That was just what came out in that moment because I was such a mess. But, you know, and I didn't expect to win. Like, when I won, I remember looking down at my shoes thinking, yep, they need to go in the washing machine. There's icing sugar all over those. You can't get the mum out of me there's there was the mum was still there um and I I I remember winning and and that moment where like 20 minutes of crying at the camera nothing came out and then

those words came out and I watched that those words back sometimes and I read those words back sometimes and I say to the kids like it's I look at them and I think that was that was much more than cake and anyone who followed that journey and watched me or or especially my husband who knows me very well like will know that that was that speech that that that bit at the end was much more than cake and winning a baking competition absolutely yeah no I mean I think those things in your life always are and there's lots of strands aren't there I mean you sound like someone that sometimes runs headlong into things that you know are scary because you quite like you feel like it's kind of you know not doing

something because it's scary is not enough of a reason not to do it um and I really identify with that bit but I think also I don't know if this is true for you, but I know when my sister's been under bits where she's been very stressed, she turns to baking because it's an area you can control, and if you add this to this to this, it will produce that. And I wonder if maybe, you know, that sort of resonates as well in terms of being able to have that shape,

like, okay, I'm going to make that cake, and it will turn out like this so long as I do these things I wish it always turned out like that it doesn't always but it's control for me it's it's control I think um they sometimes life has a way of just doing its own thing no matter how much you best plan everything and you make sure that you've got structure in place and but life has a way you know of because that's what that's what life is you know you can control and plan all you like but life has a way of just going the way it wants to go and so that's what I've found with baking for me has been like the thing that I can control um and being able to when you have that especially when I'm

anxious and I talk really openly about my mental health and being really anxious and struggling with that um it's the only thing where I can just kind of have a page where I know that that page is going to from start to finish lead me to some something that like a finished product at the end that I've done and I think it's a control thing for me you know being able to do something from start to finish where um nobody has a hand in it it's just me that is really like for me that's something that I I really enjoy because I can just kind of be in that moment and in that moment when I'm baking or I'm doing something in the kitchen it's there's no like despite the distractions it's just all mine yeah and I don't have to really think about anything else and sometimes I in in the middle of baking something or following those

instructions I find myself worrying about when this ends because when it ends I have to go back to doing all the other things yeah and and it's weird for me because baking was is still very much my thing that I do when I'm anxious or struggling but it's also become my job so I've had to learn to set some boundaries where I can differentiate between the two um but like I still find joy in testing six recipes a day because my kids get to come back from school some days and they're like uh mom what are we having for dinner and it could be cake and shrimps and pie and you name it like it noodles everything it's just like it's it's just like for about eight weeks of the year

my kids come home monday to friday with a banquet every single day on the table my neighbors yeah we we have a wheelbarrow and like we kind of take things over to the neighbors and they're like what do you want what do you want take whatever you want there's there's dinner there's breakfast whatever you like and they just take it it's really cool I love it they do I bet it's delicious I would take it I don't live near you I'm gonna come around when it's wheelbarrow day can you let me know please yeah yeah yeah yeah you come around um can can you remember now that bit where you were a new mum there's a bit in your book actually that made me kind of laugh at the sort of it, your mum, it was so sort of bleak

when you said that you just had your first baby and you were feeling really emotional and, you know, after the birth and everything. And then as she was leaving, you started sobbing and saying, I don't know if I can do this. And your mum says, this is what it is to be a mum. You will always feel like this. It's so bleak.

It is. It's dark, isn't it? It's like, get bleak it is it's dark isn't it it's like get over yourself this is terrible welcome to motherhood yeah like my mum's like my mum's and you know she's a southeast asian mum she's not she doesn't mince her words she's like get over it like honestly if i say mum do i look fat in this dress she'll say you're fat makes you look fat in that dress that's the kind of mum i have so she doesn't muck around she doesn't mince her words. She doesn't dilly dally. It's just, it is what it is.

And I quite, I love her for it sometimes. And yeah, I remember in that moment, I remember saying to my mum, mum, I just, I don't, it is quite dark because you don't, as a mum, you're constantly told and you read and you kind of, you're told that you'll get this rush, this rush of emotions, and you're going to feel love like you've never felt before. And when you are anticipating that, it's the worst thing because when you don't know,

you can't, you can't quite pinpoint whether you felt it yet. And so I remember after I'd had it, I was like, have I, have I, have I felt that yet? Is it, when does this, you know, when you expect the bells and the whistles and the fireworks? Yeah, absolutely. And I was like have I have I felt that yet is when does this you know where you expect the bells and the whistles and the fireworks yeah absolutely and I was like what why haven't I felt it is it when when does it come like is there a book out there that's going to tell me that this is the exact point where you're going to get this feeling because after 60 something stitches fourth degree tear bleeding out and and being in and out of consciousness um not being able to stand for six hours having a catheter bag fitted right you know where you could just kind of you're seeing it fill it fill up and you just kind of just constantly just in and out of consciousness

and vomiting in between all of that it's hard to find the joy somehow yeah in all of that yeah and then i'm kind of like sleeping and in and out and i'm looking and i'm like that's yep that's that's that's the baby right that's what I was here to do and it becomes then again an exercise of right I've done this bit now now where's the rest of it and and um it is quite dark but I remember it was really like sort of weeks later when my husband went back to work I sobbed I was like I don't know if I can do this on my own. Why do you have to go to work? And it's like to pay the mortgage and pay for this baby. And it was in that moment when he had gone, when I really, that textbook moment when they say you feel that rush of love, genuinely, it was a few weeks later where he had gone off to work. and I realized that like this little human being needs me and in that moment I realized that I think I need him more oh and that was when I felt it and so now I'm not a

big believer in textbook access you know textbook emotions where people tell you this is what you're going to feel you will feel what you feel and it's in you and it's validated and it's okay yeah yeah but that is a very powerful and I think and it's in you and it's validated and it's okay yeah yeah but that is a very powerful and I think actually it's really reassuring that even if it doesn't start off the way that you're hoping it can all start to find its feet um even when you know that bit where you felt really hopeless and I don't know if I can do it you know at that point it's unimaginable that even you know a few weeks later you're going to feel a bit better. Yeah. I wonder what, you know, I suppose, yeah, you were 21 or you were 25 when you've had your three babies,

would have thought of the life you're living now. Do you think, would you think sort of, I suppose it's hard to think of pre-baby you because you were still so little, you might not have even really had much time to think about what kind of mum you wanted to be. Do you think you had an idea of what kind of mum you wanted to be when you were a teenager I suppose it's it's really weird I I didn't want to have any oh I right up into the age of until I got married like right up to the point where I

got married I kind of convinced myself that I wasn't going to have any children wow which actually would be a pretty pretty big statement I guess after the your upbringing and being one of six and yes because you know we you know six is like my mum's my mum's actually got not very many children in our family so lots of our family members like her sister's got I think my dad's one of 15 14 yeah so yeah I'm one of 67 grandkids 67 I think or 68 that is a lot of grandbabies yes 67 I think that's why my granddad died early he's just like forget this I'm out I can't remember anyone's name anymore who are you I don't remember the last sort of like I don't know the names of the last maybe 25 I know the

rest but um I'm one of 67 grandkids that's my mom's one of yeah my mom's one of eight but like only four survived so like one of four so and each one like all of them have like my mom's got six kids and um to be honest that's like not very many like that my mom's like one of the one of the women in the family who's got not that many kids because all of them have sort of seven eight nine kids so we we're we're a small family so to that, you know, I didn't think that I ever wanted to have children. And I always said to myself, I'd only have children with somebody who I know would be a good dad, because I think it's really important to find a good dad in a husband. And because, you know, you're kind of stuck forever. And that's why I remember just

when I met my husband, I was like, he's going to be, I feel like he's going to be a good dad. I did take a chance on him, but you know, he, it worked out all right. Yeah. Well, you kind of, it sounds like you almost grew up, grew up together alongside each other as well, because it's, you know, you're both young when you got together and still working out who you are as well. So you. Yeah. There's a lot of working out. Yeah. There's a lot of working stuff out together that has brought us where we are 15 years later um so it would be it would have been a bold statement to say I don't want to have any children ever but um it's by far one of the best things I've done and by far one of the hardest if anyone ever says what's the hardest thing you've ever done it's just and it still is you know we're still raising human beings that's a big responsibility

it's not like it's not like having a cat, really. It's very different. It's a whole human. I know. And it's always changing. And actually, in a way, when they're little, I think there's a lot of talk about their personality coming out. But actually, I think as they get older, it's your personality as a parent that comes out too because the beginning bit, you know,

is all about keeping your baby fed and dry and changing their nappy and making sure they sleep and so long as you know pretty much anybody could take on that role but as they get older there's all these forks in the road about how your house is going to be and you know what your values are and what's important to you and so that kind of starts to emerge and sometimes you can surprise yourself by the things that you actually think no this is actually really important to me and the things that aren't so important as well and I mean can you remember what did you always want to work do you think or did you not think that was really oh yeah no I mean I worked up until the point I got married and then okay after that and then you know I had like two jobs verging on three at some point so when you had young babies

or when you were before that? No, no. So before that, so and then when I had the children, it just it turned out that like, it made no sense for me to go to work to pay for childcare that I couldn't afford for my husband to then have to top up. And I just said, it's not worth it. It's easier for me to stay at home, raise our family and for you to kind of kind of climb the ladder of your career and and do really well that's right with work so so for a long time you were just a stay-at-home mum and during that time did you always have aspirations or do you think you kind of put your own ambitions on the back burner for a while no I think I think I continued to like while having

the kids I think if anything you know I think as a writer I found myself uh they I when you have children you're full of inspiration to write new things because of all the emotions and the new challenges that you face as a parent so I found myself writing an awful lot as always that was never me uh writing for my career it's just something I've always done I've used that as my therapy to write and to express myself through poetry, through monologues. So I would write all the time and I still got a back catalogue of hundreds of stories and poems that, you know, one day may see the light of day, I'm not sure.

But, so I... That's wonderful. I didn't realise you'd written for so long. And the slam poetry as well, I didn't know you did that. Is that something you're still interested in? Yeah, I've been slamming poetry for a really long time. Amazing. Yeah, I love it.

It's a really good way of expressing yourself because it's not just in the words you speak, it's also in the way you breathe and the way you stop and the way you start and the intonation on certain words and how you express them. So it's a lot more than just reading a poem. So it's a wonderful of um it's a lot more than just reading a poem so yeah it's it's it's a it's a wonderful way of expressing yourself which um my kids think is quite cool that I can do that

so it's cool yeah it is cool yeah so I was doing it long before it became the thing that people did but yeah you know I've been writing for a for I suppose I always wrote because it's the way I express myself but um with having kids you know I would eventually when I had my third child, when I had my little girl, I went to Open University and started my degree with them because I suppose that was one thing that I'd always, that was a gripe that I always had because I wasn't able to go to university. It was something that I always wanted to accomplish. It was like, I want to say that I've been to university. So I did that while she was very young.

And the hope was to one day become a social worker. And before I could even get into that kind of avenue or open that door, my husband said, oh, I think you should do bake-off. And I said, no, no, no, I'm set. I'm ready to become a social worker. And he's like, no, no, no, I think you should do bake-off. And I said, no, no, no, I'm set. I'm ready to become a social worker. And he's like, no, no, no, I think you should do bake-off just because I feel like becoming a social worker now,

it wasn't just me. Like it's different when I'm 18 and footloose and fancy free and I don't have responsibilities. But I felt like at the point when I had three children, I felt like getting a degree and having a career and getting a job was to add to our family, to be able to have a wage, to pay for holidays, to get a bigger house, all of those things. They kind of just, it was a tick box exercise, so to speak. And my husband just said, when have you ever done something for you? Like when? And

you know, when he asked me that question, I actually realized that no, I've never actually ever done anything for me. It's always been, there's always been a reason for me to do something. And it was the first time he asked that question. It's the first time I'd asked myself that question. I was like, you know what? He's right. And even then I said, no, I'm not doing it. And he did the application. And, and, and, and, you know, even when I got into the final 12, I said, please, I cried hyster the final 12 I said please I cried hysterically and I said no please ring them ring them and tell them I'm dead and he said no he said I'm not doing that he said and he said uh if you're gonna ring them you need to ring them and tell them you're dead

I was like uh that how's that gonna work like I can't but yeah that's what I did I said to them that like I called them three times and said um I called them three times and I hung up three times. And then I just said, look, I've got to do this because when am I ever going to get a chance to do something like this? And just, that was the most, that's definitely the scariest thing I've ever done in my life is to do the show because it was the first thing I was doing where my kids weren't involved, my husband, nobody.

It's just all me on my own and that was very um exposing yes because it's very easy to hide behind your family and the people you love yes well that's actually funny you say that because I was thinking that before I was thinking there's lots of things we build into our lives sometimes that can give you a protective about the things that you're scared of and sometimes it's you know oh I can't do it because of you know because of the children or or actually you know you can do it with work things too oh I you know you can use it as an excuse for things really um and it's funny because you know you'd obviously gone into some really grown-up things very young like marriage and children much younger than a lot

of people do nowadays but at the same time is it right that when you did the show um it was the first time you'd been in a taxi on your own and a train on your own things like that yeah yeah it's the first time i've been on in a cab on my own or in a uh on the train so it was like five trains to get to the tent so um there i was sweating profusely having panic attack after panic attack wow and it's just like it was the most hideous feeling and I've got to find the photo I've got a photo of me as I'm kind of just like standing at the door with my suitcase half full of clothes half full of baking tins um going to this going to the bake-off tent and it's the

weirdest picture because you can see the fear in my eyes and now when I now when I look back at that picture I think about my husband and I think about the fear in his eyes because he could he sensed it he felt that fear he was like he was so scared for me I was I'd um got lost on the train I was five hours late so at that point I felt like I'd already failed um but then when But then when I eventually got to my car that was waiting for me to take me to the tent, it's the first time in a very long time I'd accomplished something completely on my own, messed up and fixed it all by myself.

And that's what I imagine that that is what any 17 year old going on a train for the first time who gets lost has to work it out. And the, the thing for me was I was doing it seven, eight years too late with three children and a husband and a family where I felt the pressure even more so because I had to, I had to be a grownup. I had to know how to, as a grownup, why don't I know how to get on a train? Why don't I know how to do these things? Because I was never conditioned or trained

to learn how to do these things because they were not important. So, and now it's the little things. Like I look at my kids, I'm like, right, when you turn 16, I'm getting you on a train to Leeds. That's what I'm doing. You're going to get on a train to Leeds. That's where you're going to go.

And if you get lost in between, you have a phone, you have money, you'll work it out. Hmm. Yeah, it's funny when you described that I can really sort of just touch the sides of how scary that must have been. And that thing of thinking, I should, everybody's going to expect me to find these things easy because I'm a grown woman. And there's so many things I've already done. But yeah, just that thing of being on your own, on the train and the panic attacks and everything, I can really, I can really get to the fear of that. In a frenzy, in a frenzy, I picked up sparkling water

instead of a still water from a coffee shop, which I think lots of us have done, because I don't like sparkling water that tastes blah. I don't like it. It's not always easy to tell as well. Sometimes they swap around the colours. Yeah, because you just think it's water that's been set out, so it's got bubbles on the side. So bought it and then I it was obviously I was panicking

and shaking the bottle around sat next to this lady opened it spill all the water all over her and she was so angry with me and I said I'm so sorry and I cried next to Paddington at Paddington station I remember being sat there and I looked over at Paddington I was Paddington Station, I remember being sat there, and I looked over at Paddington, I was like, oh, it was like a Wilson moment for me, where he was just looking at me, I was like, you're my only friend. Yeah, but also when you're so anxious and uptight, when something goes wrong like that, all the emotion just comes flooding out, doesn't it, and the tears. Well, mine did in sparkling water form. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly. Do you ever meet women that you think are the sort of pre-the-show version? Like you can tell that they are sort of women that maybe haven't quite found their moment or found themselves? Oh, absolutely. I find that within family members, you know, people that are, you know, neighbours, friends, sisters. And you can hear that self-doubt, you know, when, friends, sisters. And I, you can hear that self doubt, you know, when they say certain things to themselves and you can just hear, like,

you can hear, they don't say, I can't do that. But in the way that they are, in the way that they behave, you can see that they don't believe that they can. And I think that is a journey that you have to take by yourself. There's nothing like, I can sit and ram that emotion into them and say, no, no, no, you can, you can, absolutely you can. I'm kind of more like I'm that quiet shoulder on your hand on your shoulders saying, look, you're going to be fine. And because I think we have to find that strength ourselves. Nobody can find it for you. Yeah.

And we all have a journey and we all have certain points in our life where they will be pivotal. And I think we have to cheer each other on. Um, and I don't believe that, you know, especially with my sisters, um, I've got three sisters and, you know, they have moments of self doubt, self doubt, and they struggle. And especially with my little, and I see it in my little girl, um, and in my boys and, and boys. And they have moments where they just don't know that they can be the person that they want to be. But truth is, as people, we're always evolving. We're never really going to ever be that person.

We're always going to be a different version of ourselves. And I've kind of made peace with myself that I'm always evolving. Surely change means that I'm growing, means that I'm learning every single day if I'm that if I'm that one person all the time then am I evolving am I changing am I am I really the person I want to be and that's kind of the advice I always give to the people that I love around me when they have those moments where they just feel like they stand still I said you know maybe your life just wants to be stood still for a second it's okay um and and you know you will have that moment and you will get that rush and you will climb and climb and climb

and you'll stop and then you might dip but you will climb again and that's okay and that's what I tell my sisters always and I always tell my kids that it's like it's okay to stand still sometimes you don't have to always be up you know like your head will spin if you go up all the time you've got to stop sometimes and so that's like I want to I'd like to believe that I'm the I'm I I I'd love to always be the the happy force the happy force behind the the people who are going to be the best versions of themselves um yeah so you know and I I you know kids are the best practice for that yeah they really are and yeah I think there's so much wisdom in that and actually I think it's it's really important what you said about the bits where you stop as well and that

maybe life sometimes just wants you to do that but I totally agree about evolving I think and sometimes you start doing things in your life and it's only halfway through that you realize why it was important you did it and definitely for me with having these chats with women like you, I think it's because I'm still, you know, learning how to recalibrate my own life and my own desires versus, you know, family life and finding myself within that. And sometimes giving myself permission as well to be a bit selfish with some things.

It's quite hard to give ourselves permission sometimes to have something that's just yours um and I think especially you know it's still recent times isn't it that we're our mothers and our mother's mothers were giving themselves over to to family life completely and I mean it sounds like your mum had a very very different experience of she's had a very different experience of motherhood to yours. In fact, there's a bit in your book that made me feel really sad, actually, when you said about your, I mean, I get it completely, I know when this happens, but she said when you're with your mum,

she gave everything to her kids, and then as you all left, you all took a bit of her with you, and then she was sort of very empty when you'd all gone. I thought that must have made a massive impression on you seeing that happen to your mum. And that's not to say that happens to everybody who's a stay-at-home mum, of course. There's so many ways to find fulfilment and happiness within that life,

but it's got to be the life you want to be leading, I think. Yeah, I think it's taking back control of saying, because, you know, I grew up, like if I look back at the generations, my grandma was was she can't read or write you know she came to this country quite young with teenage children and you know she left some of her children back there so some of her kids still lived in Bangladesh she came with her younger ones here and she you know cannot read cannot write if you take a can like if you

take the label off a can of beans she won't know what's in there unless she opens it so we used to like muck around with her and switch her baked beans for cat food don't I was mean lovely supportive waiter yeah I used to yeah I wasn't I was I was I I do like a prank it's a good one yeah and so you know I grew up with a grandma who's dedicated her whole life to her children and then her grandchildren and even like to this day, like when she comes around or when she comes, she's in Bangladesh at the moment,

when she's like in her 90s now, when she comes, if it's a baby that can just lay there and if it's a newborn, she'll happily sit and watch it for a couple of hours. You know, she's really good like that. And if it's children who can,

are self-sufficient, she's like, I'll sit with them. So we leave her for hours with my granny. She's happy just to leave. So like she, you know, she doesn't speak English doesn't read doesn't write and and literally the only you know orphaned at the age of four so she had a very tough life married at the age of 12 so she um had a very different life to what I have and my mum again married even younger than me so 16 um first generation British in a country she knew nothing about hates the cold um and you know housewife her entire life up until the last few years um where

we encouraged her said get out there get a job and you know she now is a key worker who cleans hospital linen and is basically helping to keep our country running. And I'm so proud of her. I'm so proud of her. She says, don't ever, she goes, you've got this amazing job. Don't you ever tell anyone what I do? And I'm like, I am going to scream it loud and proud from the rooftops. You are helping to keep this country running. You're helping to keep this country running. And I will, I'm proud of that. And I'm not going to ever hide that. Um, and then there's three tears for your mom. That's amazing. Yeah. She's amazing. So and then there's, you know, me who, again, I took that, I followed that path. But also, I think for me, I grew up seeing this box, a box in which women had

to fit all the time. And I did not like the size of that box. And in fact, I didn't like the square edges. I didn't like the straight edges of that box. And in fact, I didn't like the square edges. I didn't like the straight edges of that box. And so I think it's safe to say that I've obliterated that box. And my mom is desperately trying to put it back together. She's like, when are you coming home to your kids? When are you going to be? I'm like, you know what, mom, it's okay. There's nothing wrong with beans on toast. They eat pretty well when I'm at home. So it's all right. So yeah, so I think I'm living a very different life to the one my parents and my mom and my grandma lived in and no doubt my daughter will live one very

different to mine and I will be scared for the decisions she makes in her life and I will always be afraid because she will want a life that I never had so am I going to stop her absolutely not because she has to live she has to live She has to live the life that she wants to. And that's the difference, I suppose, is that the way we think slowly, little by little, you know, that, you know, that kind of each hurdle that each generation of women knocks down, eventually, one day, our kids will have a clear run with no hurdles. I mean, let's face it, there will always be hurdles, because that's the world we live in. But, you know, the whole point of doing this and breaking those boundaries and breaking out of that box is to say that I'm breaking some of those, I'm saying no to some of those rules. I'm saying that, you know, we can, you know, you can be happy and you can live.

And, you know, I suppose we're always in that, as a mother, I'm always going to be on that journey of self, kind of looking for myself. But in knowing the end goal, in knowing that I'm knocking down some of those hurdles for my children, gives me peace to know that I'm actually, I am the version of myself that I've always wanted to be. And it's about finding peace in this moment, because I know in five years' time, I'll want to change and I'll want to be in five years' time, I want to change.

And I want to be a different version of myself. And I want to change something else. And I'll have a new fight to fight. But for now, it gives me peace to know that I am the version of the person I want to be right now. Absolutely. And you're never going to, you know, part of parenting is to, you know know make mistakes that your kids you hope they don't make the same mistakes that's kind of part of the the battle you pass on when when you've come into such an extraordinary life change like yours has been in the last um five years does it when it's so much about your sort of own self-enrichment does it still have that sort of guilt of of the

work or is it very different when it's so much more of a personal journey I don't know about you but like I don't think I'll ever not feel guilty yeah no I definitely feel are you definitely on yeah see I'm I'm there right there with you I don't I don't think I don't I think no matter what job you do I think you always feel guilty but that being said there's also that battle which I think I feel like you're going to say yes to this I feel and I will ask you the question but like because of the job I do and because it's so public facing people have this image that you have the best life you have everything that you could ever ask for and you have money and you have a nice house and you have happy children and you have a wonderful husband and they see this image on the outside and it's still hard you know my kids still get sick I still

have to not do jobs there are jobs that I have to refuse because I have to be at home and you know like people see this image and so when they see this image you are almost stripped of the right to feel any emotion um you kind of have to be forever, you know, always like this is like you're stripped of the right to have any emotion or to feel like you can say, oh, you know, I'm having a bit of a bad day today was like, well, why? You know, I get this kind of I get these comments like, why? How can you possibly have a bad day? You have everything. It's like, no, no, no. You know, you can still have you can still be happy and have everything you've ever wanted and still feel sad. Absolutely. um yeah so I think there's definitely that that's something that I really

struggle with because you know even though I have everything I could have ever wanted there is this kind of feeling that you you can't um you can't you're stripped of all emotion yeah you can't have those those feelings uh but you can and you can have everything and still feel sad um I don't even know what you're asking a completely different tangent no we're just chatting really I mean um I think also it's possible to still sometimes I feel like a really great mum and other times I feel like a terrible mum so I think that those things all run concurrently as well and yeah just the guilt I think the guilt's always there I think I think I've just accepted that I'll always feel guilty but maybe that's just a part of being a mum because I always ask my husband like he used to work away quite a lot from home and I was like did you ever feel

really guilty he's like nah not really yeah it is interesting that that's a whole other whole other conversation well I'll let you get on in a minute but um I suppose the only other thing I thought it was probably prudent to ask you because everything's been going on this year and I know you've mentioned about your parents experiencing racism and I know you did when you were small too but there's been so much happening this year. Do you feel like things are getting better in the United Kingdom? Well, you see, I get asked that question quite a lot.

It's like, do you think it's getting better? I think that just because we have hashtags on social media and because we have these little... Is it getting better? It's a really tough one to answer. It's probably not even the right question, really, but I suppose it's the progression. Yeah, I think it is the right question.

I think the fact that we're asking the question is good because we're talking about it. But racism has been such a part big part of my life it's almost quite sometimes quite difficult to talk about because there's like my grandparents my granddad was so badly abused for being a Muslim man in a very English area and he was very outwardly Muslim you know he had a beard and he'd wear a hat now my granddad suffered terrible racism my parents have suffered racism and I have suffered racism so it's just become a part of my my history it's part of who I am and I kind of say to my kids I don't want you to suffer racism but I just I think you need to

warn you that you might you know you are brown children in a very white world and you you you will suffer it at some point in your life but But just remember, you know, I'm here and we can always talk about it. But has it changed? I think the fact that we're talking about it is great. I think I've, since the movement, since Black Lives Matters and since we're talking about it, I've had lots of conversations with people who say, well, I've got lots of black friends.

I've got colored friends. That doesn't make me a racist. I'm saying, you know, like, I'm not suggesting for a second anyone's racist I'm just saying that are we educating ourselves enough like are we really like are we really getting the facts are we looking at our lives and saying what needs to change in my life to show that I'm supporting this movement and you know I look at my social media feed and I look at the people where I shop and the people I shop you know like who you know where my money goes and what I'm spending my money on. I think, actually, there's a problem here.

There's a problem here. Just looking at my timeline, like how many people do I follow that, you know, give me diversity in my timeline? And, you know, who, and even when I go to work, I posted a picture of myself at work, socially distanced with the crew, and I'm the only person of color in that crew. And somebody pointed out and they said there's a problem right and I was like absolutely and I don't see it because I'm having a great time at work but actually there's a bigger problem here so I mean fundamentally there's a huge problem that we have to be a part of fixing and we have to be a part of the solution and part of that is educating ourselves and um and and that's where when I talk

about racism and I get that backlash on social media where they say well here she goes again the race card actually you know what in those moments I won't let those people stop me because it is a problem and we do need to talk about it and the second we stop is the second we failed and um and and I know that when my my when my granddad was beaten black and blue for being a brown man, and he still got up and, you know, left for dead, he managed to get up and say, nope, I'm going to make this country my home because I need my grandchildren to make this country their home. He can't have done that in vain. And if I don't talk and if we don't talk about it you know my that would have happened in vain um and so it's really important to carry that on and

that's a legacy that I have to carry um and it's not always easy and it's not always easy talking about race and and some of the stuff that that my family have suffered but it's one that has to be it's a conversation that has to be had no it's vital it's vital and I think for my generation it's really important because we when I was at school it was very much about not seeing the color of people's skin it was all we're all the same and actually it's kind of a slight unlearning of that and saying no no you can acknowledge that we don't all look the same and there's actually conversations to be had within that and I think it's really I think it's really important I was thinking as well when you're talking about your granddad i was thinking actually it sounds like your family you know you might all have

different interpretations of you know what traditions you take on and what you take on from generation to generation but there's loads of people in your family that have done something really scary like when your granddad came here that must have been terrifying you said your mum was fearful but she's still continuing her life here and now works here. And for you, you know, all the things you've done and getting on that train that day, and you've obviously got, even though you've got different approaches,

you've actually got a real line of facing something really scary and saying, I'm going to dig my heels in and make this my own. Yeah, and I think we've got a long history of not giving up. Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah, and it's certainly not going to stop with me, that's then and I think that we've got a long history of not giving up yeah I can imagine yeah and it's certainly not going to stop with me that's for sure no way yeah it's not going to stop I'm gonna I'm gonna keep on carrying on yeah oh it's been lovely talking to you yeah you too Nadia and thanks for persevering with the I'm off to go burn clean feed whatever it is um and uh I want to see you on wheelbarrow day please yes send me a message when it's wheelbarrow day I'll come with a bin bag to collect any food we've had a chat yeah

we've had a chat we've had a chat I feel like I know you now exactly like you I owe you cake now I owe you some cake come on that's brilliant you're actually I technically I owe you cake but I won't argue with you okay cool definitely some cake at some point hopefully thank you so much Nadia honestly it's a real pleasure to talk to you and thanks as well for your patience with persevering no it's okay thank you have a lovely day thanks a lot bye you too stay safe you too so there you go that was me um chatting to Nadia Hussain see I told well you already knew she was lovely we knew she was lovely didn't we and think, isn't it really inspiring that you can hear from someone

who's so clearly so grounded in family life, and yet she can talk so candidly about what it felt like to not immediately fall in love with her first baby. You know, these things happen to people and it's just wonderful to get conversations out there because they feel like such a big taboo if it's happening to you um you know and also to talk about her social anxiety to the point of you know pretending she's thinking considering pretending she died just so she didn't have to do bake off um and i'm really glad that she didn't pretend she died and she did actually go and do bake off and go on to inspire so many people. So thank you to Nadia. Thank you to you. Thank you to my team for getting together again,

getting the whole gang together again for the podcast series. That's my lovely producer, Claire Jones. My lovely husband, Richard, who has unwittingly become my editor for reference, see Pandemic. Yep, he's been stuck in doors with me with a studio and I don't know how to edit my show. So I asked him and he did it.

And thank you to Ella Mae for doing all my artwork. And that's kind of it, you know. That's the team. We care about it very much. We care that you care. Thank you for coming here again and see you next week I'm excited to be back

you can tell can't you see you soon look after yourself bye bye Thank you.