Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 121: Trinny Woodall

Episode Date: February 12, 2024

Trinny Woodall is the CEO of the beauty brand Trinny London - she's an entrepreneur, businesswoman and author. She became a household name in the late 90s when she teamed up with Susannah Constantine to present the TV makeover show What Not to Wear. Last year she published her book Fearless about how to find your style and boost your confidence. She has a 20 year old daughter Lyla, who she describes as joyful, and she told me how, without her own roadmap to motherhood, she found a way to bring Lyla up, with the help of a wonderful woman called Jenny,We had an honest and fascinating talk in the attic room of her home in West London, which doubles as an office and a dressing room, full of colourful clothes. Trinny has just celebrated her 60th birthday and is as vibrant and fun as you could hope for. We sat there together, in our pyjamas, just after she'd shown me her microneedling tool, and I really understand why people open up to her and tell her their innermost secrets! Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Peloton all-access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running. Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Morning, this is the sound of Saturday mornings in my house. If you're listening closely

you'll hear the frustrated sound of a five-year-old who's struggling to do something with his toys. a five-year-old who's struggling to do something with his toys. You'll hear... All right. You'll hear... Sorry, I'm distracted now. A sizzle of pancakes. And what are you doing on the iPad, Jess? Let's have a look. Isn't that nice and cute. Jessie's been watching a lot of monkey footage. Anyway, I hope you've had a good week. We've come to the last one of the series. It's all right, Mickey. I'm coming. Listen, let me just do this and then I can come and spend some time with you. Maybe now wasn't a good time to do the introduction to the podcast.

Oh, it's going to be a busy old day. I've done something a bit essentially foolish. So my second born son, Kit, has just turned 15 this week. So we're taking a load of his friends out to the cinema. And then he was like and obviously they're all staying for a sleepover and i just was a bit too weak to fight it so we have nine nine 15 year olds sleeping over tonight um haven't massively planned the bedding situation i just think something will happen they're probably not going to sleep right okay i'll be there in a second down and then tomorrow morning i'm leaving to go to New York. So let's just see. Look, if

it all goes horribly wrong, I can just get on a plane and sleep, right? I'm going to New York for quite an exciting reason. It's my first ever professional commitment in America. Excuse me, I've got a bit of a cough, and I'm singing on Jimmy Fallon on Monday, so that'll be lots of fun, I'm actually just really excited about it, it's a really nice thing to get to do, and yeah, Rich is going to come with me to help me with the music side of things, and that is my, oh god, sorry, that's annoying, that's my next few days, and then at the end of the week, I've got the BAFTAs where I just have to sing my song my little friendly song and then um and then have some fun so that's my week in and

out of half term just making some plans for the kids I think I'm gonna go and visit some animals called a capybara because that's what my 11 year old Ray wanted to get for the house the world's largest rodent he decided we should have two. He said, it's really easy, mummy. You just need a license and off you go. I don't think it's that simple. I don't think I'm going to be a house that has two massive rodents walking around it. I don't even know how it'd work.

I don't think anyone has them domestically. I think you have to have them like outside in a hutch type situation. I don't think he'd really thought it through. But it turns out there is the only place in the UK I can find where you can meet Cappy Boris is about 20 minutes from our house. So I think we're going to do that during halftime.

I'll let you know how that goes if I remember at the beginning of the next series. So today's guest, Trini Woodall. So I've, look, like lots of people, been long aware of Trini. I used to watch What Not To Wear when I was young and I thought she was she and Susanna were very dynamic and driven and exciting to watch and lots of energy but also wise and friendly and gave good advice so that was really good telly and then Trini Woodall was presenting that show for a while and then, to my mind, the next incarnation was with this wildly successful beauty business.

So it kept being popped up on my feed. It was one of those things where I kept seeing her doing her little videos to camera talking about fashion and makeup and beauty. And I think at first I was like oh I reckon I you know I'm M.Battroni and is this something that works for me but actually she's a very I find compelling woman when she engages with you know people she's talking to doing her social things so she makes you feel like you are in the room with her she's got phenomenal energy and it was an absolute pleasure to go around to her place and we did two things.

The first thing we did was we filmed something for her where I used this little micro... What's it called? Yeah, microdermabrasion little sort of tool. It's basically microneedles. In fact, that's what it's called. Sorry, ignore what I said about microdermabrasion. I don't even know what it is.

I might have made that up. Can you tell I'm not someone who does facials? It's a micro-needling tool. So it's basically like a little lawn roller for your face that's got needles on it. So you sort of roll this little contraption over bits of your face, and then it allows deeper absorption of the creams you then put on, and it also helps your skin kind of regenerate a little bit in that bit because you're causing tiny little aggressions on your face,

and then it goes, OK, we need to repair that. That's plumping up your skin. That's the idea. But I found it didn't hurt, and it meant that, so we filmed this stuff in our pyjamas, which is quite weird for me. So I just met Trini for the first time, and then I quickly put on my pyjamas at her house,

and then we filmed that, and then we decided to stay in our pyjamas for talking for spinning plates, which actually I really recommend. I mean, let me tell you, it really breaks down the barriers for talking for spinning plates, which actually I really recommend. I mean, let me tell you, it really breaks down the barriers if you meet someone new for the first time and immediately put on what you wear to sleep in. And I found her, well, all the things I thought I would,

you know, interesting, smart, driven, energetic, but also I really noticed how she's very very open just one of those people that wears her experiences on her sleeve and there's no skeletons in the closet she's sort of a very very much presents herself in 360 you know these are the good bits of me. These are the bits I found challenging. Are you done? Nearly done. No, are you done? Yes, I am. We had a really good chat. Are you done cooking, Jessie?

Oh, God, there's a pancake in the pan. I forgot. Thank you, Mickey, for reminding me. Anyway, I will leave you with that. Oh, it's okay. I didn't leave a pancake there. Yes. I'll see you on the other side. Enjoy the chat with Trini. Put your pyjamas on if you want to join us. And I will see you in a bit. So, I think this is the first podcast recording I've done in my pyjamas. And I just want to thank you for that. I think this might set a precedent, actually, Trini, that we always do this now. I think it adds something to the conversation

because we're at a most intimate relationship with ourselves when we're in our pyjamas. For me, it's that cleansing ritual. It's that time of winding down from the day. I'm not somebody who gets up and stays in my dressing gown for a long time so it's definitely an evening feeling with me ah okay and so that's when I unwind the most well how nice I'm gonna be like sleeping in a second it's sort of as well as tricking my brain into thinking I stayed the night here last night

you're welcome anytime so thank. It was a great breakfast. Well, why don't we start with the here and now. What is going on in your life at the moment? I know people are all going to ask first, why the fuck were you in your pajamas? Yes, true, actually. It's like we haven't asked that question. I think we do. Sophie and I are striking a relationship. We just wanted to break the ice in a really dramatic way.

Actually, you know what that is a prudent point not necessarily the explanation about the pajamas but the reason why I was here already and did actually get into this thing is because we were doing um you and I were filming something for your new product which is a micro needling tool for people to use at home and what I really took from it and I was I feel very lucky that I got to experience it firsthand because I'd already seen it through the way that you communicate people anyway but obviously what you've built is huge and touches many many many many people but and this might seem like a strange comparison but it really reminds me of something that Mary Berry said to me when I spoke to her about how when she first started

doing her cookery show she basically on the other end of the camera would just picture one person one person she was trying to reach and I think you are able to very much focus all of your skill set and all of your learning what you're doing into the individual so I felt like I was it made me feel like everything you've been doing was for my benefit and I don't think everybody is able to communicate that even when they're just doing instagrams or interviews I think it depends a lot on how we formulated our career I think you Mary and I have that I think when you sing you probably sometimes, maybe to overcome shyness at some stage in your early singing career, you just thought,

let me just think of one person in front of me, not this gazillion that were there, because that could be quite overwhelming. I don't know if you found that. Yeah. I think that when I did my last career, which is in TV, we never had a script. So I wasn't trying to remember lines as I was talking to somebody. And I think if somebody's in an environment where they are interviewing people or talking to somebody and they have a script, it's really challenging because you've got to focus on that moment

but remember something else. Your brain is doing two things at once. But when you just ad lib all the time, my laptop's going to go off every few minutes, I'll turn it off. But when you ad lib all the time, it allows you to focus in on that person and when I did what not to wear we had very little time we had a week where we did all the filming but in that first morning when we met them in an hour I had to really get to know them so you you need to see what's under somebody's skin what is it that they don't want to talk to you about to begin with,

but it's worrying them the most? How can you get there? And then later on in, you know, what being the CEO of a beauty brand, I do go around the world, meet a lot of people. And very quickly, because they maybe watch me on social media, they know me. And that's me. I mean, you know, the person on social is the person I'm not I'm too long in the tooth to be two different people and I fit inside my

skin so I don't have to be anymore but they um feel that they actually it now sort of works in my favor because they'll tell me quite deep dark secrets quite quickly and some of my team are like oh my god they they, you know, and it's, and I love it that they do because that's trust. And, and it, a lot of relationships you're building up when you're somebody more in a public domain of one to quite a few, that just, that ratio is it's about trust. And, you know, when you came in here today, you said to me, I don't do anything with my skin. And I've always looked at your skin and felt you've got the most incredible bone structure and women who have amazing bone structure generally the bone structure looks after them for a long time so they never think about doing anything and you have five kids and you're busy and it's like it hasn't been a big part of

your agenda but I come across women who hit a certain time in their life and they think actually should I just do something and then it's difficult to know where to start because you feel a bit left behind and all your friends have been doing a routine for years so so I speak to lots of people in that situation too and you want to think what's the right amount that I can of information I can give them that they can take that on board you know you don't overload somebody with with info well it's interesting because you've touched on a couple of things that I wanted to talk to you about one of which was I did think I bet you're somebody that people do just tell you things and they're very open with you quite quickly I could already imagine that that's something and that carries

with it a certain responsibility sometimes I think but then I suppose this this skill that you've got of being able to to kind of focus on people has served you well even from when you were really little and at school and breaking down big groups of people that are quite intimidating into the individual and going actually what about if we i work with you and i can have you tried doing your hair this way or things like this just to kind of individualize it and then you've got that one-to-one with someone yeah and then you break it down. And I totally agree as well about the audience. I do do that. I picture every, I try and look at every single person.

Individuals are so much less scary than big, amorphous blobs of groups. There is this other, I saw something not that long ago. We've got bills outside, by the way. Don't worry. London. Which resonated with me. Like I was shocked by, I sort of listened to this woman say something, I thought, my God, why have I never heard that before? You know, when we hear things at the right time. And at the moment, I have a CEO coach. So he helps me to try and be the best CEO I can

be. And on this journey, we go over lots of things. We go over how I think strategically, how I get from in the weeds to long-term strategy, et cetera. But one thing he said is, you have a tendency to do this thing when you're fearful. You try and control. And we've got to unravel this and see where did it start. And I'm like, you're not my therapist. And he said, it's not about that. It's just at some stage, this is a slight block to you changing your behavior. So let's look at it. And then a week later, I saw this woman on Instagram who's a woo-woo manifester.

But, and I don't mean that in a detrimental way to people who manifest, but I just think manifesting is something that it's got a sort of modern way of interpreting. And I think we all, to an extent, either sit in our future a bit or see our future as hardly attainable. And the more we sit in our future,

that is today's interpretation of manifesting. But this woman, I'm sidetracked, she said, people who are empaths, and I'm a bit of an empath, learn it early. And it's not always the best place to be because you know, unconsciously, who is the person in the room who's actually not having a great time. And you know that quite quickly. And when I have smaller groups of women I meet, I'll kind of hone in on the person who might end up being the trickiest person for me to help, but something takes me there. And that's because when I was growing up probably, and this is something I'm only just thinking about now, I was one of six,

but I was always, and then when I went to boarding school very early at six and a half, and so you're always gauging, you're always taking the temperature in the room for your ability to have a place in the room and to be able to speak in're always taking the temperature in the room for your ability to have a place in the room and to be able to speak in the room or not speak in the room. So you're really checking out your surroundings all the time. And I realized that was me. You know, I've never looked at why, how do I feel about going to school so early? But I think one of the things that actually probably happened is that, and that actually helped me to, in a way, fine-tune this ability of sort of knowing, you know, what is going on with some people where maybe they really most need help. And I've been drawn to that.

And I think that's why I did What Not to Wear. You know, look back now. We can look back at the 90s and think those were years where things were far more straight talking and lots of things that we couldn't do today but there was still that underlying here's a woman who wants help it might be that she didn't ask for help herself somebody else brought her to the table but at the end of any of those journeys those women had shifted found out a bit more about themselves, looked at themselves a little bit differently, and I knew left us in a better emotional position than when they had come into that process. Yeah, definitely.

No, I think that's where that programme resonated so massively, was that everybody could relate to that feeling of feeling a little bit out of sorts, and then the reassurance and sisterhood of people really caring about you feeling good about things yeah it's a it's a really gorgeous thing that actually I mean when you were talking before you mentioned about now you feel that you you fit in your skin when do you think you got to that point I mean do you think you I mean it takes a while

not for anyone not for anyone listening to think oh, how many more years have I got to go? I do feel addiction got in the way of maybe me fitting in my skin a little bit earlier. And I, you know, use drugs from about 16 to 26. So in that time, you stop, you know, you stunt your emotional growth because it's all going into using drugs. So when I stopped using drugs, that then was, I was like a 16 year old. So, you know, 16. So at 36, I'm like 26. So you're feeling all those feelings. I think 20s are, you know, for me, the hardest time in my life. It was so painful. And there was so many, there was so much of who am I, you know, who do I want to be? And trying out different

elements of one's personality to see how they resonate in life, and resonate with yourself, and how comfortable you feel in them. So it took me until I was probably about 35 to think I fit in my skin. And then certain other things, like when you put something down, you pick something else up. So I put down drugs, but workaholism kind of took hold of me and that sense of having to really, you know, prove myself to myself and really pushing myself and, you know, really crazy work. So at the same time, I was trying to have a child and that didn't sit that comfortably. I did many IVF to try and have a child. So there was that, you know, I think only when I, and still work can be, I can, you know, be very unbalanced in my work-life balance, but there is a merging for me of work and life. So I see my work differently.

And actually, I don't want to judge somebody else's work, but let's say I went to a 9-to-5 job and I'm a workaholic in the city. That person might be obsessed and love their work, but maybe they're doing a singular thing every day that's quite similar. So in my work, every day I can be something really different. You know, I'm doing an interview with you today.

I do a film in the morning. I'm doing a board meeting the next day. I'm doing an investor meeting. You know, it's really varied and I meet lots of different people. Through the day, I meet lots of different people. So I don't feel all of it is classic work. And so that work-life balance is more, it's am I doing too much of life and do I need

to retreat and just have some calm time and I see it as that of the space in which I'm with many people versus the space in which I'm with myself that makes a lot of sense and how well do you deal with this sounds like a strange question but how well do you deal with, this sounds like a strange question, but how well do you deal with the fact that everything has built up so successfully? And I know that sounds a strange thing, but if you've spent so many years dealing with different aspects and then things click in and it feels like, I feel like I've kind of learned a lot about myself and things are coming together and I can put on these different hats

and does it feel always feel good or has some aspect of it felt a bit like whoa this is actually a new territory I think it there is still and sometimes when I'm you know yesterday I do we do something called a town hall meeting which is when we get um we're doing once a month now the team so the team's not 220 people but there were probably 160 people so we take over the top floor of a pub. And I sort of walk in there thinking, on one hand, I sort of say to the team, we're a successful beauty company. What are we doing in the top floor of a slightly dirty pub for our monthly town hall?

My grandiosity knows no bounds because I feel shiny. You know, I want the team to realize. But then it was empty and smelling of last night's drink. And then once we filled it up, it was filled up with this fabulous team that are Trinny London. So then it took on its own identity, which sort of took over the room. And I stood up and felt very comfortable. You know, I feel that the team are a family to me. I do feel that actually. And some family members me. I do feel that, actually. And some family members I know really well and some I'm getting to know

because we have people joining all the time. But I got up there and I will talk to them honestly. This is where we're at. And a town hall is an opportunity to be really candid with the team and are there any questions and just ask stuff. I want this to be, you know, why are we doing this now and where is this at?

And I want people to feel comfortable enough that in an environment like that, they can know if they ask the question. It's very hard to ask a question in front of a lot of other people. And it's a real sign of how comfortable the team feel that they can do that or not, you know. And it made me realize I'm really comfortable doing that. And I feel very close to people there and then other days I might just walk in the office and and feel disjointed because maybe I've been doing a lot of

things out of the office and I come back in that environment and I feel I have to reconnect again so it's a lot about what the flow has been of my work and other times I I don't like this word imposter syndrome you know I read it and it's it's something that I think is I don't always love labels Sophie that make people feel that they have to look at something with this word imposter nobody is an imposter they are to me it's either you are sitting in a room and you feel I don't have a right to be here and it maybe it just means you need to go and learn a bit more about something or ask some questions it's you have a right to be there because you've been invited into that room but maybe if you're feeling that you just think well let me learn some more yes well let me ask somebody or let me get a mentor just so you feel those layers of confidence

can build up in your right to be there but I occasionally get put in lists of things so there is a list that I was really sort of always admire which is this list there was this list called Forbes 30 under 30 and they chose 30 people under the age of 30 who were stars around the world and I always felt great but what about what about people in my age group and they started one two years ago called 50 50 50 over 50 and I was in it this year yay and it was it was sort of a thing and then i looked at these people i was in it with and they were like you know the archbishop of this and somebody who's doing molecular science

over here and i was thinking i don't have the right to be here i i did feel that i don't have the right to be here um so that's when i i decrease the importance of my contribution i mean if i look at the car i have a very one of my best friends is a smartest woman i know she was sort of at oxford at cambridge she worked on the genome project she she's curing an element of blindness you know these are people i think their impact on their world is staggering and then that's when I diminish the impact of helping a woman shift about how she feels about herself because if if I'm put on here I know an element of being put on this planet is to help women shift in their thoughts about themselves you create happier people who create happier environments who have happier children and happier colleagues and you know what I mean it it reverberates so I yeah I shouldn't it's an it's a weird ego thing to

think well that's what it because it does it it has an impact different impact one that might be deemed to be superficial but people's sense of self is not superficial it's a very important and community as well the community of people feeling seen and feeling part of something and the concentric circles of that, really, really valid. But I was thinking, I mean, this might be a little bit of a clumsy link, but when you were talking about, when we talk about the success of something, it made me think about your daughter and becoming a mother. So your daughter's now 20. So she's just a tiny bit older than my eldest. We became mums around the same time. And you said that there's many rounds of IVF to have, Laila. So within that, when you're trying to keep with your work and do all the things put on the front,

and all this hardship is going on behind the scenes, and you're obviously having to build this resilience of just pick yourself up again what happens when it works how prepared are you for motherhood it's a good question because you you're putting everything into trying to have a child but you're not thinking about how's it going to be to be a mother but I had when I was really thinking I wasn't thinking would I ever be a mother but in my early 30s it was the last thing on my mind. And Susanna was a mother earlier than me, so she had two children before then. I had Lila and we had our kids around the same, her third and my first. And so it was really looking at Susanna.

I remember at the very beginning when she first had Joe, her oldest, who's now 25, I think. He, you know, we started our first online business, it was 1999. And I'd call her at 8.30 in the morning and say, where are you? And she'll go, I'm breastfeeding. And I'll go, well, when are you going to get here? You know, that was, I was so irritated by the fact that this child had got in the way of us building a business on a very superficial level, just like in that moment, not in a big time, but in that moment. And then when she had Esme, who was the most divine baby, I sort of thought, this is a wonderful thing. And I noticed also Susanna's evolution. She had this other raison d'etre in her life. And Susanna's passion to be incredibly ambitious is different

from mine. It manifests itself in a different way. And so she found her calling as well And Susanna's passion to be incredibly ambitious is different from mine. It manifests itself in a different way. And so she found her calling as well. Susanna has her calling equally in motherdom and what that is and being a writer and the other things that she does. So I look at that and I think that's just, it's bringing out this side of her, which is really wonderful. And it's grounding her and there's some amazing things. And it made me then think, actually, I really want that in my life too. And then that's when I tried to start having a child when I was 35. So that journey then was one where you just hovered between I'm never going to have a child, but you couldn't quite conceive the idea that I will never not have a child.

And also I got pregnant a few times, but I lost them. I lost them, you know, not just in four weeks. Some of them, one I had to give birth to, you know, it was not. That's a massive thing. So just that sort of, that hope has got bigger and bigger and then it's gone. So that's a different impact. And then when finally I have Lila, and then it's gone. So that's a different impact. And then when finally I have Lila,

I, um, I realized as a mother, I'm not going to be able to do this all by myself. I know that from day one. And I knew that for a number of different reasons. I knew that there were moments when I would be slightly a single mother because my partner, you know, had some, some things he had to deal with. And so from from day one I knew the only way I would do it is if I had help and I didn't necessarily have a mother I didn't have a mother who lived in England so I I called up for anyone I and and she had this maternity nurse and I I said you know um I'd like you know to her. So then I lost that baby. So then I lost her. And she was really brilliant.

I met her. I thought, she's fantastic. She's the mother in instinct that I need, that I feel I don't have as a mother. And I didn't have a nurturing mother. So I didn't have the skill set to understand how to do that. And then I got pregnant. And so I had this other woman for a month when Lila was born and when Lila was born because I kind of lost babies and got

pregnant not got pregnant I sort of hadn't planned that I'd take time off because I didn't know if it would happen so you know I remember doing the Parkinson show two weeks before and I did Graham Norton two weeks after all right I just remember it sort of within that month, I had done both those and I'd had Lila in between. And then when she was two months old, I went to America and I shot a pilot. And so it was just, I didn't take maternity leave. I just didn't have it. Well, I had six weeks and lots of people just take six weeks, but now people take a bit longer. And so I had this woman to begin with who was really strict in how she felt a baby should be. And it made it very challenging, but I sort of relied. I thought this is she knows much more than me.

I don't know anything as a mother. And then she was leaving and Jenny came in for a, I'm telling you this long story because I know I told it, but it's just how I am a mother. And Jenny came in, and she came in for a day to meet Lila because she was joining two weeks later, but she just said, oh, I don't know if she's going to be any good or whatever. And as this new mother, I was like, oh, my God, I've made the wrong decision. So I call up my friend who'd recommended her, and she said,

Trini, she will save your life. Don't listen to this other first woman this is going to be a woman that you will thank me for your whole life and so I was so Jenny came after about three hours I knew Jenny was going to just be that missing link in bringing up Lila and it takes more than traditional parenthood and parents to bring up a child. And we didn't have that. You know, I didn't have grandparent support. And my partner would go, you know, once a year to rehab. So it wasn't a consistent presence, although an incredibly loving father.

And so Jenny was this consistent thing in Lila's life, more than her mother and father. And so I would go away because I'm the main breadwinner. So I'd have to go at that stage. Most of my work when Lila was little, we weren't being offered in the UK. I'd stopped after she was about two, getting what not to where I was finished. And so we were offered things abroad. So I went to 16 countries traveling and sometimes I'll take her and sometimes I wouldn't. but I'd go for two weeks or a month or I'd leave if it was in Europe I would leave on a Friday and come leave on a Monday and come back on a Thursday night or Friday

so really disjointed but Jenny was always there so Lila's upbringing has been untraditional. But when I look at what is the most important thing for me, for a child, is to feel the love of two adults in a different way. And sometimes that's been her dad. And her dad died when Lila was 10. And it's me all the time. But I'm not always there. And it's Jenny always there. So Jenny, you know, when Lila, you know, Jenny, I said, Jenny, can you stay? Can you stay? She was a maternity nurse. And when Lila was five, she was going to school.

And I said, Jenny, I'm just not sure, but I just need you to stay because I just feel, you know, so she stayed. And then Lila was going to boarding school, all right. You know, then Johnny died. So obviously Jenny was staying for that, you know, and it was how long Jenny would stay that Lila would going to boarding school, all right. You know, then Johnny died, so obviously Jenny was staying for that, you know. And it was how long Jenny would stay that Lila would feel okay. It was, you know, a very traumatic time in her life. And then Lila went to boarding school, but then Jenny stayed.

So Jenny's still in our life. Lila is 20 and is, you know, the second, the third most important person in Lila's life. Lila has a brother, half-brother, and they've become closer and closer and closer. But for me, this whole concept of motherhood and how much of a mother and instinct we have and what kind of mother we can be

and what we feel that we should be as a mother is something that I always look at. Because I also think that I can look on one hand and say, is it easier to have more than one child because they can hang around with each other? When you have one child, the intensity of, you always have to, you know, I'm so over-concerned. I was so over-concerned always with Lila feeling lonely

because I felt very lonely as a child. I had five siblings, but I was at home and they were at boarding school and I was sick. And, but I, I, so I sort of pushed that thought upon Lila and thinking, oh, if she's going to feel lonely, that's terrible. I never wanted Lila to feel lonely. You know, it's weird. Motherhood is a very, it really tells you a lot about yourself and then you want to do the best. And i have a child who is lives in the light she could live in the darkness she's had trauma that's happened to her and she's a joyful human being and she's got the best of her father and hopefully the best of me and not the worst of me for sure

she's got the most unbelievable sense of humor and um you know just considering looking at now and looking back it's very easy to look back and I don't know what the future is going to bring, but it is interesting to see that out of all of that and out of the different ways we choose to be parents and what we bring to that child, she's okay. She sounds like she's more than okay. It's making me think of the pressure that's, you know, creates diamonds, you know, but I think also I found a lot of what you said really moving because you've obviously had to do a lot a lot of mothering without a roadmap ahead of you there's a lot of things you've had to deal with which is not part of the course and I'm so sorry you've had to deal with those things because those are I mean the idea of you know your

10 year old child suddenly finding themselves without their dad is huge but you've obviously firstly Jenny like here's to Jenny she sounds incredible I do want to have you know I don't talk often about Jenny but she is the most unbelievable woman and yeah but also for you just having that consistency that that bond and the that shorthand that you can have with someone else who cares about your person as much as you do you don't have to fill in the gaps every time it's just it's a natural priority for them too like what what an amazing feeling that it's like a hand in your back isn't it always it's just like someone else has got me so when you go away and you have to do the work and you've got to show up and do that stuff someone

is at home holding the fort in the way that you feel good about so they've always got that person to give them that I think that's really special and I think as well when you have child care like for me I've had um a nanny in my kids life since they were tiny and sometimes if they hurt themselves they'll go to like we had nanny Claire for 11 years and they would go to her and I always rather than feeling anything like about me i think how brilliant that i have the right person that they can get what they need from her as well like yeah like well done to me for finding someone that works so well um but when you've when you've sort of navigated all these things listen my mum and i we were on our own so she was my you know single mother to me for a really crucial bit when I was sort of

in my single figures when I was little and we've always credited it as being like the keystone of our relationship actually it kind of set the tone

for so many things so I know a bit about that intensity I know what it feels like as a daughter but as a mother how is it now she's 20

to just have to start not always being as you know under the same roof all the time and that kind of thing? What's motherhood like now in that stage? It's interesting because lots of people say, oh, my God, do you miss it? Because Lila went to university in Spain, too. And it was quite difficult when she left school and she had what I call she was this COVID kid because from 16 to 18 when you and I was sort of having the summer of love and it was all yeah we were finding

ourselves and we were in relationships or meeting people Lila and her friends were kind of at home so an element of their emotional maturity did not grow. And then other elements overgrew because it was a time when there was a crisis in the world and they were a part of that crisis. And so there was this kind of life and death moment going on, which had an impact also in their ability to rush out to the world because you want to kind of keep the buttons down. I think quite a few kids became not agoraphobic,

but just this close to home moment. And then she left school and most of her friends decided to have a gap year which Lila did as well and then she went off at the beginning of her gap year to go and do uh three months in Italy learning about history of art and she was so excited about it and and I should have seen some signs before she went off on a couple of holidays and she sort of just felt a bit ill and I thought she had neurovirus or something but in fact she had really really bad anxiety and I have a very lovely therapist who helped me called Julia Samuel and she had you know said to me that when Lila goes away for the first time and friends of mine who've had their partners have died

and their kids have then, maybe when they were younger, the kids have gone away for a gap year, everything came out. So what actually happened is elements of Lila's feelings, which she probably kept just quietly down because you process things when you're ready, came out. And just she became, this acceleration of her anxiety over literally three days was just, I was, you know, and she would, you know, she called me 30 times a day for three days

and, you know, and into the body, like, chronically throwing up every 10 minutes, you know, this really, not just somebody, you know, this is not a food disorder thing. This is anxiety having. And I just didn't know what to do. And you go from thinking, this is the beginning of the next stage of her life. I need to push her to get on board with this because she's 19. You know, it's, she's got to get there. And, well, she was 18 and a half. But it just only got worse. So I veered from, come on, darling, you're okay. Breathe with me.

And we always do this breath work, Lila, when she's been a bit stressed as she's grown up. And we do it on the phone and I'll just bring her down, you know. And nothing was working. And then I'd go to tough mum. Come on, darling. I paid this much. You know, I tried. You know when you try from every angle. Yeah. nothing was working and then I'd go to tough mum come on darling I paid this much you got it you

know I just I tried every you know when you try from every angle yeah and then in the end I called my doctor I called my old sponsor I called Julia and I said I don't know what to do and they said Trini maybe you need to bring her home and it was such a big decision because I had this real sense that all her friends are going to go off around the world and do these things and I was going to come home and be alone it goes back to this fear for my child of being alone she has so many friends but it's that when you should just stop superimposing your own bloody fears anyway she came back she got help she you know did some of that tapping stuff EMD I never know it's the initials EMD or whatever but it really helped it's very helpful for kids when they cannot talk about something and they just feel it in their body,

which is where Lila is at, I think, around that. So she had that year. She went for a week to Singapore, which is like a test for us. And it was OK. And then she goes off. And when she went to university, I went with her and she said, I want you to come for three days and stay with me. She was determined to not be in England. All her friends were doing this more traditional approach of being at the same school, a lot of them going to the same university. And she just felt, I want you to come for three days and stay with me. She was determined to not be in England. All her friends were doing this more traditional approach of being at the same school, a lot of them going to the same university. And she just felt, I want to break, this is part of me that wants to break out.

But when we go there and we're getting her room ready and I could feel that slight panic rising. So we went round the room and I had all these post-it notes. And by her bed, I had, get out of bed and move. You know, this thing of lowness and you've got to move you know um 99% of everything you worry about never happens which is something her dad always said you know in her bathroom mirror I had don't pick your spots but over like 20 post-it notes we went to buy gratitude journal together and she never writes like she's very dyslexic but she did it

because I came to visit her a week later, and she brought her journal with her. She met me in Madrid, and she'd written in her journal all the time, and I just thought she actually knows she's got to do stuff. And then within a month, it was like I had a different child. She was, oh, I was up till five in the morning. I mean, instead of people being nervous about their child's progressing too quickly or running away and I never see them it was like I was so relieved that she was going out to 5am I was so relieved that she was happy happy I mean god that's all we want for our kids and

and you know she before we went there was this calendar of how many days till I see you and we planned in these flights we booked so many bloody flights you know so she could know that she had this point in which she could come back and and think that's when I'll see mommy again and now we're in the second term and she's like I might not come home this weekend I'm like yeah this is this is progress so now we're at the stage where, oh, actually, Lila has got her own life. So am I thinking, oh, you know, she's flown the nest and all those feelings you have of what we call emptiness syndrome. But I sort of, I made a guarantee against it. So the night she left, that I came back,

my stepson, Zach, was here. He was 10 years old and he said, I thought I'd stay a couple of days because, you know, Lila and I thought you might find that nice. I was like, okay, and he cooked me dinner. Very sweet. So anyway, he's still here. It is five months later. And my nephew as well, these guys are both 13 or 33, all right?

It's not like they're teens. My nephew as well, who was sort of, you know, doing some entrepreneurial stuff, so can't afford huge rents, and just said, can I stay with you in September? And he'd asked me in July. I thought, great, because Lila's leaving. It'd be good. I don't want to be in an empty house.

That was my thing. Don't want to feel lonely. So they're both here. It's like a frat house. You know, they sort of, you know, they do lift a finger, sort of. But I might come back and say, did you take the dogs out? And they'll go, well, you know, I was on the phone, so it's difficult. Excuse me?

Your phone is a portable device. You have to look after the dogs. So it does make you also look at elements of yourself because, you know, Lila's on this journey and she's really excited by the journey. And I feel I will, we will always have that closeness. I think when you go through a lot together, and she is my only child, she has a fantastic brother,

there is that real closeness. Absolutely. Yeah, and a lot of it forged in fires as well. You've really got that closeness, and probably that's almost like a a language only the two of you can speak to each other really and I think actually what you said about when someone you care about is going through I mean that really resonated about when she was really struggling and you you feel that thing of like okay no let's do this let's you know I think you're someone probably

likes to problem solve right okay let's get this sorted so that you can move forward but sometimes just stopping and just letting her come home and just taking stock is actually completely the best thing especially as your kids are growing up it's the only time in our lives it really happens where everything is so measured by year by year you know if you told me about lots of big events happening at 33 or actually no it was 37 you wouldn't think anything of it but if it's between 14 and 17 you suddenly think that's a really oh well these things happen at certain ages so with our kids we're watching them all and seeing their peers and you feel like people are going into bits that they haven't they're not they should be further along yeah but actually quite often there's i

just don't think anyone gets through life without anything ever happening that makes them question that a little bit yeah so you do get wisdom out of it. And even though it's awful at the time, there's always the wisdom about how to sort of, I don't know, protect yourself for the future or something, I suppose, or just learn new layers or empathize with people more. It breaks down all those barriers, doesn't it? So now when people talk to you and they've been through things,

you're like, trust me, I've been there you know so many things I wanted to ask you a little bit about when you were setting up your business while I was little and you had to kind of put everything on the line it's easy looking back now to see obviously all your instincts came to fruition but when you were at the point where you're, you know, selling your clothes to fund your business, did you ever think, what am I doing with me and my daughter? Like, where will this take my daughter and I? Yeah, it's interesting how far ahead you play the movie. Because I think I only ever play the movie a certain period ahead. And when I realised I was actually going to do the business I thought about a long

time and then I had been earning money and then like you know we have residue income you and I from different things so the residual income was was drying up and I wasn't doing any more tv and I had this idea so there was that period when you know, the life I thought I would create for myself had not, you know, I'd been earning a lot of money. So I bought this house. I had a big mall, everything. So I'd had this big overhead, this life that then I wasn't getting the revenue in. So I couldn't afford the big life. And I also thought I want to do a business where I am totally responsible for

whether it will succeed or not because when you're in a partnership with somebody it's that sort of who's pushing and pulling and and so you're kind of either pulling somebody with you or you know it's it's not always in the same place and I just thought if I'm gonna do it I don't want to do it off my own back that it's my responsibility whether it works or not. Yeah. Until you build a team up. But just for the idea of a team getting off the ground. And so I thought, what am I going to do to do that? And Lila was still at school and her school fees were paid because she had a godfather who helped me pay the school fees. That's a great kind of godfather.

Two godparents who helped me to be able to finish paying the school fees, because when her dad died, there was a lot of a fallout I had to deal with. So I knew that she wouldn't have to change school. I knew I'd have to change house, and I knew that Lila could adapt quickly. You know, actually, kids get attached to a house, but if it's another house, the most important thing for them is what's going on inside that house. Absolutely.

And so, you know, I first of all rented it out, and then I knew I'd have to sell it. And then I, at the same time, was also thinking, I need to raise all money, and I thought I'd sell my clothes because I know what way to fit them in a new house. And so I sold... We're sitting in a wardrobe full of clothes, but I had many more clothes.

So I sold them. And I just had some people there who were reticent that I was going to start this business when her dad died. And they sort of said to me, you know, maybe you should go and get a job. Do you mean they were worried about your emotional connection with what you were doing? No, they were just like, it's so unknown. Just risky. And you're a mum and you've got to look after Lila. Maybe you just need to go and find a regular income so you know.

And the first thing I thought to myself is, who would give me a fucking job? I actually didn't know Sophie because to go out of the career inn and then get a job, I thought, well, who is going to pay me for what I know? And something that makes complete sense as well. It's continuation. Yeah. And so I very quickly dismissed that. And I thought have to do this it's now or never I'm 50 and so I was 49 then so I emailed them back and I said look I've just got to do it so they said

well when you're ready and when you put your together your documents whatever comments talk to us and they were one of my first investors um and so at that beginning I you know I just knew I had to do it that was as far as it went and when you wind the movie forward and you think how big is the picture I kind of knew I'd have to sell the house I rented something then also I've been with my partner for two years and then we moved in together so all these things sort of happened and evolved and you know still today you know I live in a rental I don't own a home I own a part of a home in an in a little chalet in France so I have I have my roots slightly somewhere and it's also a place that we've had for 25 years whereas for Lila it's the most important place actually because even though we don't go there so much

she's known it since she was born that's like crucial for a child to have something like that somewhere might not be in the form of a house but it's something they can feel they can they can um measure their life against this thing I just think it's continuity especially when things have been inconsistent in a child's life they're they they look more towards what has been continuous Jenny has been continuous Sam Wines has been continuous these things are important i think continuity is a key element i think so i sit in the space where i think it's successful right now but it's not yet where it needs to be for me to feel i have total freedom of you know i've bought and paid for a house you know we have this thing of our parents,

if they buy a home, they mortgage, and then at some stage, they pay off the mortgage, and then they're fused, like they downsize, and then their kids get a mortgage, and the whole evolves and goes on. So I do want to be in a position where I can be in a home that I own, where I can also help Lila, you know, towards a flat. You know know those are the most basic things I would like to do and that I won't also probably be 65 working a sort of 18-hour day 16-hour day because I just feel also at some stage I won't be working this hard and I want to feel there is a fullness to my life yeah you know that so there's a there's an evolving right now of how do I go from in the weeds today there's 240 people in the business. You know, I need to be so in the weeds.

We're hiring really brilliantly qualified people to be strategic. So, you know, I look at it that this guy said to me. The CEO coach. Yeah, and he said to me, Trini, you're the dragon's head in a Chinese New Year dragon. You're the dragon's head and you're getting a new idea and you're going, oh, and there's a few hundred people in the body of the dragon. And as this dragon is quite long, those last legs go, they've just got over there and you're over there. And then suddenly you change direction and they've only just got there. So if you keep chopping and changing

what you want to do, it really affects people people so you have to have this consistent roadmap of where you're going or what you're building and the only way that I can do that and be good for those people who work in the business is if I get out of the weeds and I look strategically so where do I want to be in three years and let's work backwards. Well you're always like this or is this something you've had to learn? No it's something I've really had to learn and then how can I what do I need to do this year in all these different parts of the business and in my life as well? Because this where do I want to be in three years is about where the business wants to be and where I want to be as a person.

And they're sort of in conjunction because it might be I, you know, will I still be the CEO or will I be the chairman, president, chief creative officer? You know, will I want, you know, somebody to drive the business who's driven a business to that point of inflection where it needs to go that I've never had the experience do? Or will I feel, yes, I should still steer them? You know, there's all those things that you think about as you grow a business. And also, I want to, you know, when we, I think when we talk about stages in life traditionally, and if we look at the reflection of our parents you're

10 years younger than me but still we have parents of a you know my parents aren't alive anymore but um of you know your sort of 20s 30s are discovering yourself your 40s and 50s are your you know your your 40s are the most biggest part of your career your 50s are kind of you're you're just ticking the boxes of things you want to have maybe got to, like you've paid off the mortgage, all this kind of stuff. And if you have kids that happen to be leaving, you might be getting grandchildren in your 60s. You know, there's this kind of flow.

And, you know, in your 60s, a lot of people stop working. And in the 70s, they're kind of retired. And then in the 80s, you're preparing that you might not be around. So I don't look at life like that at all. No, that doesn't surprise me. I just feel I never, ever look at life like that. And I had a very lovely friend of mine who then really regretted saying this because I brought it up to her so much, where she sent me an email and said, Trini, you really have to think about the future because you might only have 20 good summers left

where you're really agile and able to do what you want. And I was like, are you kidding me? You you sent this email is that really how you think but I thought to myself yes we can actually there's no reason why we shouldn't think like that because you know so that's why I think I'm a I'm very obsessed a lot of people are like can't you just be happy to grow old gracefully and my challenge to people yes it does that even mean? Yes, it's very too safe. But on the most superficial level, it could be your husband. I love you as you are. Please don't change it. No Botox, no whatever. It could be that, which has a definitely path and is a very... A lot of women feel that. But I think generally, we all want to look in the mirror and

feel that we're not exhausted by life. And I think as you get older, you can feel exhausted by life a little bit more. So how do I put off or not have come into my life so much that feeling of exhausted by life? So what do I put inside my body? How do I eat less sugar? How do I, um, look after my body and build up strength? And I, you know, I really do a lot of strength training and I've just gone to 10 kilo weights and I'm like oh I can't feel my bottom the next day yeah but it's it's like it's I see literally when I look at weights I don't think I want to get a firm ab I think my bones are protected my mother had osteoporosis that's literally what I think about and I feel let me protect those bones so if I'm 90 and I have a

fall I jump up again you know I want to be that person who doesn't feel um that I'm controlled by my body in in what I decide to do I want to feel I look after my body and and do as much my body as I can so it will look after me yeah and so therefore when I look at what will I be doing in 10 years or 20 it's sort of it's not you know I do want to own my own home in the next three years definitely let's put that out there I own my own home it's up there it's on a post-it now actually 2024 own home so that's actually the end of this year sorry that's that was put on two years ago so we're a little bit like that yeah we, we have to keep that one up. You've still got a few months. And we need to think, how do I get to that point? And then there'll be another point.

But yeah, it's three-year things. I don't look ahead more than three years. I actually really relate to that. I find when people have big plans, five-year, ten-year, that I can't even begin to picture it because so much of what actually probably both of us do is about reacting as well and where energy is and how things evolve. And it sounds like you're someone that sees themselves as someone who's still, who's always learning and there's all these different chapters. I think that's a really good way to stay quite youthful in yourself, actually, because it keeps your mind young about life, I think.

So a lot of that exhausted by life thing comes as well from feeling like doors are closing possibilities aren't there anymore it's not a great stance I don't think yeah or I'm doing the same thing every day yes and where's that lift exactly yeah um before we started recording I was telling you about how a lot of my motivation for having these conversations was about actually very selfishly about trying to work through my own sort of guilt when I go away for work and and the fact that I love what I do but I also want to be a good mom I want my kids to feel like I was always present is that something you've been a do you have you found that quite easy bedfellows it sounds like because you've navigated it so much reacting to actually who Lila is but but also who you are, rather than just going, this is what motherhood must look like? I need to constantly remind myself to live in the moment

when it comes to that, because sometimes I can be distracted and Lila will go, hello, like this. She's like the mother, hello. You know, she'll be in a taxi and I'm just doing something on social and she hasn't got her phone. Right. Okay. She sounds a lot like my eldest.

Yeah. But then she'll be watching telly and I think, come on, let's watch a whole film. And she doesn't have the attention span because she sounds a lot like my eldest yeah but then she'll be watching telly and i think come on let's watch a whole film and she doesn't have the attention bank she's on she has a tiktok brain so she will be doing sims looking at tiktok and watching the film with me and i'm like so i'm making an infuriated face right now but it is that sort of you know there's there's both those it swings like she's totally I'm totally parenting and then she's parenting me. And there is a thing that you shouldn't really have a child parent you. But she does remind me of how to be sometimes when I'm slightly out of myself or I'm lost in a thought.

And she'll go, you know, hi. And, you know, so we help each other. I don't think there's mothering as well. I think that's just two people whose relationship is in the moment and you care about actually engaging with each other properly. I think that's actually care. I think the ones where you could have what looks like the model of, you know, the parent doing the parent and the kid being the kid,

but they're not necessarily actually caring about the other ones hearing them. You know, you don't have to be on a phone to be not listening, do you? Is there anything about your experience as one of a big, again, very selfish question, as one of a big family, youngest of six, is there anything you've taken from it and is actually similar in Lila's life

or is all of it just different? I think that it's really different because, yeah, I mean, there are similarities but differences. Did you like it? Did you like being in a big family? Well, it was a complicated. She said hopefully. No, it was a complicated family, actually, because they weren't all from the same parents. So, you know, my dad married twice, had three children, and then married my mother, had three children.

So there was sort of times when we all came together as family and times when it was very separate. And there was lots of stuff that was never discussed. So it was not a family that chatted things through ever. You know, I... So you've had to learn all of that? Yeah, I think I've had to learn that on my own. Like, I've never...

I've once had a deep conversation with my mother yeah okay that tells you that doesn't probably and that was when you know she sort of wasn't feeling close to my dad and she confided in me that's once once in you know our sort of uh 58 year relationship so it was just a different time she was brought up in a very old-fashioned way in a very traditional household and so when we grew up you know it was a very entitled life for the first years of my life my mother had a lot of help and I don't remember her as a child I don't remember her in my life. And then I went to boarding school six and a half. And then I saw her you know, three times a year because they lived abroad so I didn't

go back in when people have exeats and things. Half term sometimes I did but sometimes I went to stay with my grandmother in Brighton and Hove and Hove then was really grannies. Back to back grannies. So I just lived in granny land when I was sort of, you know, whatever, quite a young age till 15.

That's so little to go to boarding school, isn't it, six? It was little to go to boarding school. And it's something that I don't always look deeply into because it just sort of happened. But it is, when Lila turned six and a half, I looked at Lila's height even. And I thought, my God, you, you know, and how little she was, how emotionally small she was, you know. And I thought that's, that stunts, that stunts emotional development a little bit.

And I think I was stunted in my emotional development for a few years probably yeah but then you've obviously just through your own isn't it interesting that you can have whatever upbringing you'll have but the kernel the chemistry of who you are was always in there so you've had to just sort of chip away to go I'm going to find the people that you don't have to always get everything that's expected from the traditional relationships you've obviously found the other people that gave you what you needed yeah at the right time yeah that's that can sometimes see us right yeah and found the wrong people as well occasionally where you had to spend a few years getting over you know so I think you you do look

for things you feel your parents so in my early 20, I did look in boyfriends for things I felt I hadn't got from my dad. You know, that you do do that a lot. You're not the first to do that. I think that's classic. I think it's really classic, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what happens, isn't it?

Well, I think there's so much wisdom to take from what you've said. I mean, I'm sure the word, I mean, survivor doesn't seem right because, of course, you have been through lots of different experiences. But I think actually what I take away is actually like huge amounts of optimism about, I mean, as I've been talking to you, behind you is a wardrobe full of amazing colors. And I think you've always seemed to be able to find the bright in things and that's actually how you described Lila as well. It's this light.

Yeah. That's a powerful thing. What a glorious thing. I think it's wonderful and testament to the two of you really that that's where you're at right now. And am I right, you're about to have a big birthday? I am about to have a big birthday, yeah. Yeah, I know people talk about big birthdays,

but anything that ends in a zero or a five, you're probably going to get balloons with those numbers on. Yeah, you are, exactly. So you're about to be 60, is that right? Yeah, that's right. Is that a thing? I know you say you feel ageless. It's not really a thing.

I mean, it's a thing in so much that it's a thing for other people. Like if I do introduce a journalist, they go, you're going to be 60. You're a very good advert for it, though. Come on, it must feel quite satisfying. It's nice. I can celebrate it. Age is a number. but it's it's nice but age is a number you know at 25 I was like a 15 year old you know it's like I've never fitted in my age

down or up and I see it as I think each one like when I I remember when I was in my 40s and I sat with a woman who's four years older than me and she said you know when you're 50 Trini the amazing thing is you stop worrying what people think all right it's a big one to stop worrying what people think that's huge and I've got to wait till okay yeah but I mean you can do it earlier but it's like it was one profound thing that she said to me and I remember when I turned 50 a lot of things happened Johnny died when I was so it was it was a lot of I didn't take a step back to think about it but when I was 51 and on my birthday on my 51st birthday I thought my goodness it's true I don't worry it's not I don't care what people think because that's uh that's an

insult to people yeah I don't worry if somebody has a view on me I don't worry. If somebody has a view on me, I don't worry about it. If somebody, you know, wants to write something about me, I don't give a shit. If they want to write something that reflects my daughter or my family, I really overcare. But it's, so that's, that's that release. So I'm thinking in my 60s, what's that, what's that release? So I haven't In my 60s, what's that release? So I haven't met people yet who've said, oh, my 60s, this came into my life. It's like, oh, my 60s, I'm beyond a few things now.

So I would love to change the conversation. So maybe there need to be the one. So you know what? When you hit 60, these amazing things, these emotional light bulb moments are going to come into your life so I've got to see as it develops what they are

and communicate those to people who are scared of reaching their 60th decade yeah don't fear it also it's a privilege to get older you've lost people

they didn't get the opportunity to get older you've got to relish that so true that's the gift right and the light bulb I feel like all roads

lead to light it's a good thing thank you so much Trini thank you Sophie love talking to you and my skin feels lovely thank you So true. That's the gift, right? So true. And the light bulb. I feel like all roads lead to light. It's a good thing. Thank you so much, Trini. Thank you, Sophie. I love talking to you. And my skin feels lovely too. Lovely.

So that was Trini. Thank you so much to her for having me over. And all her wisdom and her honesty. I'm now sat next to Mickey. He and I have been playing some games. There's toys. The playroom was actually quite tidy this morning. There was just stuff everywhere.

It's Saturday afternoon. My eldest boy is having his guitar lesson next door. It sounds very sweet. I am now about an hour away from having 10, 15-year-olds in the house. Please wish me luck. Mickey, is it going to be all right with Kit's sleepover? Mickey? Oh, he's shaking his head.

Oh, yes. Oh, thank you. There's lots of people. All right. I've also got to sort out what I'm wearing for Jimmy Fallon. I'm flying to New York tomorrow to see on Jimmy Fallon, which I'm super excited about, but what am I going to wear? I already told you about Jimmy Fallon.

I'm allowed to talk about it more than once, right? Anyway, what should I wear? Mommy, come on. I was supposed to sort that out this week. All right, I'm coming. I was supposed to sort that out this week and I just haven't. All right. I could always do a salt button and just wear nothing. Yeah, I've got those Americans talking. Anyway, thank you so, so much to all of you for joining me for another series of the podcast. so, so much to all of you for joining me for another series of the podcast. Thank you so much to all my amazing guests. It really is such a delight. And I've already, as I said, began recording for the next series. I think realistically, that's going to be the end of March. So I know of my month off at the end of, I always do 10 episodes, then a month off then I

return but I think I might give myself a tiny bit more of a month than more than a month more like five or six weeks just because I'm going on tour around Europe at the beginning of March and I'm not back till like the 20th so I kind of want to um give myself a little bit of time just to make sure I've got a few things lined up for you. But I've already started with some amazing, I can't speak today. I've already started with some amazing interviews. So I'm feeling good about that. But yeah, thank you so much to Trini for talking to me for today's episode. I really, again, I know I'm repeating myself, but there's just so many guests that come away and I sort of feel like invigorated. It's just good to be around energetic can-do

people but i think she's not just a can-do person she's also thoughtful and empathetic um as a result of her experiences and probably just the nature of who she is so um i will try and find you more inspirational women for the other side um i'm still trying to get the astronaut uh i've had the brush off from a couple it's very annoying it's because they're american and i'm not saying it matters but it's definitely easier when people recognize my name they're more likely to say yes or at least be intrigued but you know there's so many podcasts aren't they and if they get this podcast from some woman they never heard of with a stupid name they're just thinking nah so maybe i should just go for broke and just like screen grab the nasa instagram post that name checked my own dance floor and say look nasa approve of me

please can you come and speak to me hold on a second yeah east sorry what way is east east i always have to do this. Never eat shredded wheat. But you mean, where's east from our house? No, no, like, what way is east? This way, this way, this way, this way. Uh, this way. So do your hand. Never eat.

Is it this way? Yeah, like a clock. Yeah. Never eat shredded wheat. So he said that... Yeah. Okay. I don't know if I just taught him right i basically just taught him like what it always is rather than where it is geographically for where we're standing

i am a 45 year old woman and i still have to do never eat shredded wheat every time to remember which way is east which way is west should i be ashamed maybe so anyway listen excuse me have an amazing amazing amazing rest of February and if you're coming to find me on the European tour in March I can't wait to see you I'm planning some lovely lovely shows and I will be back in Blighty taking it nice and easy April and May so that I can yeah have some time to write and record. So thank you so much. Thanks to Ella May for doing the artwork. Thanks to Richard for doing my editing. He just walked in the room. I'm talking about you. Thanks to amazing Claire Jones for her production and incredible edit notes. They're very, very beautiful. And of course, mainly thank you to you for lending

me your ears. I will see you soon. All right all right take care of yourself see you in a bit bye Thank you.