Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 122: Natasha Bedingfield

Episode Date: April 8, 2024

Natasha Bedingfield is a New Zealand-UK singer and songwriter who started out in the business at a similar time to me. Another shared link is that we are both currently on a new adventure with songs we brought out originally in our early 20s! How's that for a coincidence? We've each been on an unexpected and exciting journey with our old songs... both because of recent films. The film 'Anyone but You' featured Natasha's 'Unwritten' which originally charted nearly 20 years ago. And my adventure has been because of 'Murder on the Dancefloor' being used to great effect in 'Saltburn'.  Natasha talked about her place in her own family's politics, where her brother Daniel was the first to get into the music industry. Natasha had to fight to pursue her music career; in her family's eyes, that 'place' had already been taken by her sibling! (Sidenote: Daniel's debut single 'Gotta Get Thru This' kept Murder off the top spot in the charts 22 years ago - not that I'm holding a grudge or anything, Daniel!)Natasha has a little boy who is now 6. When he was 2, he was taken seriously ill with a spontaneous brain abscess He had to have two surgeries and was in hospital for 5 weeks. Thankfully there was a cure and he is fully recovered, but the time he was in hospital was obviously an extremely difficult period for Natasha and her husband. Natasha remembers having to perform a gig while her son was still in hospital. She shared how terribly difficult that was, and how in a room full of small talk she would suddenly blurt out 'My son's in hospital!'.On a lighter note (pun intended) Natasha and I talked about how having a baby changed our singing range - for the better! And we agreed that we are both really enjoying the new ride with our old songs from the early 2000s.Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Well, hello to you. And first things first, I've been doing the podcast now for, what is it? Three years, four years? Four years. Oh my gosh, it's been four years. And I still haven't updated the intro.

It's the same intro I recorded back in 2020 when, yes, my children were aged between 16 months and 16 or whatever, as I say. It's not true anymore. They're now aged between five months and 16 or whatever as I say it's not true anymore they're now aged between five and nearly 20 so sorry about that they keep me to record a new one you'd think these things would be simple but it is simple it's just you know what it's like other things shift the little brain cells around and I think it's probably you know just to paint a picture there's lots of different podcasts out there and they have different ways of doing things and some of them are very slick and shiny and they have production companies and people working on it and different you know filming things and mine is I record it I book the guests. My long-term friend, Claire Jones,

who I've known since I was a teenager, she's a brilliant radio producer, so she produces podcasts with me. She's often with me when I record and she'll do beautiful edit notes and then she sends those to Richard, my husband, who edits it, sticks this bit on the front, sticks the other bit I do on the end.

And then another friend of mine called Ella May does the artwork. And that is the sole production company. And so I guess what I'm trying to say is, I know it's an old intro. Yes, if it was a really shiny, slick podcast, I would have been pulled up about that ages ago but I suppose the person holding the rowing oars in the little podcast boat is well it's kind of me and then Claire Richard and Ella May so I guess that's why I'm buck stops with me, but also, sorry, it's not more slick.

But you don't really need a slick intro. You want good conversations. That's why you're here. So my children, just for an update, are 5, 8, nearly, very nearly 12, 15, and very nearly 20. Sonny and Ray will both have their birthdays this month. As will I. As will Richard. Actually, it's Richard's birthday.

I am speaking to you on April the 6th. And I am not in London. I'm not home. I've had a lovely week on holiday. It's Easter holidays. Last weekend, we played a festival in the Netherlands. We skipped all the kids up. We put them on the tour bus.

They came to that festival. Then we had a great day off in Amsterdam with the family. And then we flew to Puglia in the south of Italy, where we've been since Monday. And we fly home on the day that this is published. So Monday, we're back in Blighty. But, oh, it's been so nice. Can you hear the sound of the children? They're playing in blighty but oh it's been so nice can you

hear the sound of the children they're playing another room i've shut them in there um anyway it's a beautiful beautiful day it's the morning richard's opened his presence and this is probably about as quiet as it's going to get and and we are back for another series how lovely is that i'm so excited Another fine group of guests for you. Kicking off with Natasha Bedingfield. So Natasha and I have known each other for a long time. I think it's probably been, we probably met about 20 years ago when her first album was coming out and my first album was coming out.

We've got lots and lots of crossover, lots of people we, lots of mutual friends, lots of people we both work with. And she's just a real positive, smiley, lovely presence. And last year we got back in touch after a little break where she was coming over to London to perform Mighty Hoopla and a few other bits and bobs and she wanted to know if I had any suggestions for child care so I helped her find some people to look after her little boy while she was in London she's got a little boy who is I'm gonna say six and um so we were sort of texting back and forth. And then over Christmas and New Year, for both of us,

we experienced this simultaneous renaissance of old songs. So her song Unwritten, which is one of those songs that never really went away completely. I mean, I remember the kids singing it in assembly a few years back. Last year at Mighty Hoopla, Natasha sang unwritten in front of a tens of thousand strong crowd who all sang the song just incredibly like this huge audience singing the song so you know the wind was in the right direction for it to really properly reach and everything but um it's featured in a film a rom-com, and the song started to take off again, meaning that Natasha, very similar to me with Murder,

was suddenly out again talking about this song, talking about, you know, when it was written and the video and all the things that kind of about its birth. And we were texting back and forth because both of us were finding it such an extraordinary thing and lots of fun, but also sometimes a bit the roller coaster is going a bit fast anyway it turned out she's in London for a little bit in between some jobs that I was doing so we sat down together and just had a really lovely conversation so we're now in April as you know but this was recorded late January, early February, when we were really

still very much in the eye of the storm in terms of the songs both, you know, doing stuff in the charts and being flown here, there and everywhere for work. So yeah, it's that kind of buzzy excitement. And we spoke about lots of things. It's the first time we've really sat down and had a proper chat in a long time. But also, you know, often with other musician friends of mine, you're kind of a little bit ships in the night. So you might see each other out and about somewhere and have a quick chat. But being able to actually sit down and have a proper long chat

and hear about her childhood and her songwriting and what music means to her and obviously what motherhood means was really delightful. So, yeah, this is a really fun chat. And after we finished our conversation, we also recorded a really silly TikTok where we both sang a bit of each other's songs and it made us laugh a lot. So that's the most important thing.

Anyway, I'm going to sit and listen back and I will see you on the other side. But welcome to another series of spinning plates well it's so nice to see you how are you so good thank you all the better for being in a lovely cozy home well basically I feel like I we I've booked you into kind of podcast so I can kind of have an excuse to catch up I have to say that's why I booked this into we've ring fenced time yeah conversation but how have you been finding it so you've been over in the UK

for the last week is it just for a week yeah I live in uh New York Westchester New York and um this has been so crazy like start to the new year and like I've found I feel kind of I'm letting myself be more excited and more like just enjoying it and seeing it as fun and but I've also been very happy to see the success that your song is keeping on having and like just the way it's still resonating because I think that's what all it is is it's in a tv show and or a movie sorry it's in a movie but then people it just resonates just as as much as it did when it first came out well and it's just so funny to me because I think you know you and I've kept in touch over the years and last year we were talking quite a lot like

around summertime yes I was asking for your advice yeah you're always happy to help very good questions oh my gosh you help me out so much because I was in London your advice. Yeah, you gave me. Always happy to help with childcare questions. Oh my gosh, you help me out so much. Because I was in London and I had no help, I had no childcare. And it's terrible that jet lag with a kid is brutal because they're up till 12 at night. It's relentless. Yes, you can't just say, come on, can you just get with,

just try and like pretend it's a different time. Yeah, because they don't adjust. You just have to wait. No, exactly. Well, no, it's really, it's actually really don't adjust you have to wait no exactly um well no it's really it's actually really first i'm happy to help but secondly it's always nice when you sort of hear the a little bit of behind the scenes because obviously firstly i know very well what it's like to do our job and you know be raising a family but secondly i think when i started out i didn't really get much time where I'd talk to other singers, actually.

Yeah, me too. You're often the only one in the room, aren't you? Yeah. I think because they just keep you so busy. They just don't have time. But I don't know why. I look back too. I'm like, why didn't I make more friends at that time?

And I think it was just there were so many people in your face that you just, yeah, other singers. Also, you're in different locations. Yeah, and it's not wildly encouraged, but also I think when things are starting to take off and accelerate, it's like sort of cladding being put on. So you have, you know, your team developing and the people that become your touchstone good people to see all the time

and then people where you're like, you know, they become the new people that are familiar to you, you know, you're the people working your album and all this stuff. And then when you haven't got time doing that you're you want to spend time with your family and friends that you already had thank you very much it's not really the time to make and when you're on stage like your mother but you're on stage you want to still look effortless like you still want you don't want like you want to go on stage and you still want it to feel you want it still feel that same standard and great but like so there's still that kind of

feeling of and being a performer like larger than life but that you know then you go back home and your kid is up till 12 and you know yeah that kind of thing I know my life reality comes crashing in um I think as well it's funny to me that I think if you'd said to us last summer that we would be sitting here now and both of us being such a similar boat with our song, old friends, songs that are old friends, but having, you know, whatever it is that's happened, a resurgence, don't call it a comeback. Don't you dare call it a comeback. Yeah, one of my favourite questions to be asked is either like, welcome back or where have you where have you been i'm like i've been here i've known where i've been the entire time i know i think it's just the algorithm right i think that i'm just not on your radar exactly

okay and if i'm not on your radar doesn't mean i cease to exist exactly it's like a philosophical thing i'm only really there if i'm right in front of you listening to me yeah um it's like you pause. It's kind of a bit narcissistic. You just, like life pauses when you're not in the room

or something. So true. I actually had an interview the other day where they said, and so this is how your kids are discovering murder and dance.

I'm like, no, no, they've literally heard me singing around the places they were born. I was on an interview yesterday and the guy was like,

are you thrilled? And I was like, I feel very happy about this but are you thrilled? And he really wanted me to say I was thrilled and interview yesterday and the guy was like, are you thrilled? And I was like, I feel very happy about this, but are you thrilled? And he really wanted me to say I was thrilled and I don't know why I was determined not to say. I didn't want to say I was thrilled. He really wanted that. I don't know what that is in me, but I didn't want to.

No, I'm told you to say it. I don't want to be too excited. I'm not that excited. I mean, I am, I am. No, you were fine, thank you. I was fine already. I get it. There was I mean, I am. I am. No, you were fine, thank you. Everything was taken over. I get it. There was actually a question I got.

Is this good revenge for all the 20 years when we didn't hear from you? I was like, that's very much not my interpretation. Is that them trying to do a pun on Murder on the Dance Floor? Like revenge? Oh, maybe. If I give them that, though, I think I'm giving them something that wasn't intended. You can tell when a journalist is trying to get something, can't you? Definitely.

The other one that I think a lot of people who have kids get is, how did being a mum change you as an artist? And that same journalist kept asking me that again and again. Right. In different ways. Like, how did it change you? Were you open to giving them anything on that? Well, I mean, having kids changes you so much, doesn't it?

Definitely did me. It kind of knocked me for six, actually, I mean, having kids changes you so much, doesn't it? Definitely did me. It kind of knocked me for six, actually, I think. Yeah. I didn't really, I felt like I had to find my way back to who I was a little bit. That's exact, that's a really good way of describing it. It takes a long time, doesn't it? I think particularly if you want to make sure that that part of you that feels the way you do on stage is sort of somehow still able

to be in amongst the fact you're now responsible for someone else and yeah you know very happily in that role but you just don't know how you're going to feel about being uninhibited when you're suddenly I don't know needed in a different way I guess yeah I feel like I like I've always kind of been a bit of a Cinderella where if I'm in a family environment then I'm the one scrubbing the floors and then but when I'm on stage I'm it's like such a huge difference like I'm shining and it's like you know and then I love my kids so much and I love my family that I just want to give it all up for them but then when I'm on stage I'm like I'm definitely supposed to be there so there's definitely always that kind of I'm trying to figure out how to straddle those two worlds.

But did you ever, so your little person is six now, right? But did you ever even consider that there'd be an alternative where you weren't doing what you do anymore? Well, I mean, I think that the bond, I wasn't expecting the bond between my child and me to be so strong. I remember people talking about it and just not understanding.

Even though I love kids, I didn't understand how it's really physically in your body, the way your kid feels. It affects you. Being away from them hurts. So it kind of ruins, all you want to do is go on a girl trip with your your girlfriends and like have but then it's like but like but I also your kid needs you I just

didn't I didn't I wasn't prepared for that I don't think anyone can quite warn you that feeling that sort of cord yeah the cord yeah but then I think every mom feels that way that we need those moments to shine and and just to kind of let go. And, you know, I guess for me, like, I wouldn't have got that if it wasn't for that fact that it's work. Like, quote, unquote. Like, for me, like, it's easier to go when it's work taking me there. Yeah, that's true, actually. Giving yourself permission to have the time that's not work

can be quite hard, actually. So, and a lot of working mums will feel that way, probably. But, like, when I'm working, and then as soon as as I'm home I'm back kind of almost making up for being away so this year I'm trying to be like I'm trying to tell him oh I have to go and relax like your mum needs to relax sometimes so that he understands that it's not just work that that takes me away you know what though I think that's a really good lesson because I think sometimes we can slightly for want of a better word, slightly martyr yourself to things.

Yes. Like always being where you're needed, but not necessarily where you've chosen when you choose yourself for those spaces. And how it's just to change the language to be like, even when you say no to things, it's like I'm choosing not to prioritise that. But it's kind of like, yeah, that's kind of like a good adjustment, I think. And do you think it affected your voice, having a baby? It actually really did make it better for me.

Yeah, I think for me as well. Did it? I got more range, weirdly. Me too. Isn't that strange? Higher notes. Yes. Which I've heard is quite unusual, but I was like, this is cool.

Yeah, I'm so high now. Yeah, and I know right after having a baby, but I was like, this is cool. Yeah, I'm so high now. Yeah, and I know right after having a baby, my voice was a lot lower as well. Essentially, most people tend to think it's the other way, that you get more like richer, deeper notes. But I found as well, it was the higher thing. I was like, this is cool. Yeah.

Oh, that used to be quite hard for me, but now that's a little bit easier. That's nice. I really like that. And I think for my head, those bits where, as you say, when you go on stage and you go from, what was your analogy? Scrubbing the floors.

The sort of, you know, the things that you, the role you put yourself in. Having that space where you can just be on stage and just be completely in the moment. It's amazing. That's very special, isn't it? Yeah. That's not something everybody gets

from what they do, I don't think. And also self-love. I think through loving a kid that much, it has helped me love myself a bit more in terms of, you know, like as a woman, the way that we feel, like the way that we look is so, like it's about makeup. But I've realized through like looking really into someone's eyes,

like someone really loving me like that, even in the middle of the night. You know, that's also been quite been quite powerful yeah that's actually really true yeah I suppose there's such a purity in the way that they see you exactly yeah that makes it hard to hard to sort of back back you know accepting it and giving it back they sort of reflect it onto each other don't you which is a nice a nice feeling that you get with your kid. And I think, yeah, it does make you feel differently about yourself. Definitely to me as well.

I'm a lot more forgiving about my appearance and that kind of thing because it's just not as important. I don't feel the same way about my body or myself. And it's weird because your body changes so much. So it's not even the ideal. It's not my own ideal body at this point. But then you have to be grateful that it's been strong and healthy. They're just like different priorities, isn't it?

Am I right that when you were pregnant, you were actually touring? I was. I had a horrible pregnancy. But I think there's something called prenatal depression. Okay. I think I had that. Or it was just so horrible to tour while pregnant. Well, I think if you felt completely blue and disconnected from yourself,

I think that would make anyone feel depressed. Yeah, I was so sick. I was so nauseous, and I was on tour with Train. I was opening for Train. And yeah, I was just so carsick on the, the bus. You drive, you get off the stage, go on the bus, drive to the next place. And it just not, didn't, didn't work. So my husband was at home in, I think in LA and I was like, I need you out here. And he's like, you're doing great. Cause all the pictures, you know,

like when you're pregnant, you look so great. so great well if you're lucky that's nice oh well some people look have like what's that called the glow yeah the glow I did glow but I didn't feel the glow no so do you think you had hyper hyper grevarium is that what it's called maybe a mild form because I wasn't I wasn't like fully I was just nauseous the whole time yeah but I was a vegetarian and I stopped being a vegetarian and it kind of helped. Okay. Yeah. You have to go with your instinct, don't you?

And I probably will become a vegetarian again, but. There's no judgment from me. I am a meat eater. I just, my body was just like, I need to have that. I believe you ate meat when you were pregnant. I don't feel like that. No, because I actually want to be, but it was like this moment of,

I can't, like my own ideals, I can't let that get in the way of having a healthy kid. Yeah, and that's immediate, isn't it? That desire to put that first. Yeah. But I think that must have been a very lonely place you were in if you're on this tour and you're not feeling good in yourself and you're feeling sick.

Yeah. And I mean, unless I'm misinterpreting feeling as you say that prenatal depression is more than just you know an understandable response to feeling ill all the time is this something a bit deeper more hormonal more in yourself that was the first time I understood how hormones can make someone feel depressed and And it's a very powerful hormone that I think probably like, you know, women on like, probably having, you know like when you're a woman

who is working in the kind of jobs that we do, we have quite a lot of adrenaline and we probably have a bit of a testosterone. Like so that female hormone that comes in when you're pregnant is probably quite, like it's a bit of a shock to the system. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. yeah and did you is this something you've subsequently managed to find other people

who've had a similar experience well as soon as I had the baby I felt better but I you know when I hear some of my friends who have the I can't I can't pronounce it but when they have that the throwing up thing yes the morning sickness yeah I'm always just like I'm so sorry yeah that's a very intense thing isn't it and it's hard as well to get any sort of respite from the days that stretch before you to get to the point where you can actually feel better again

I think it's why I've only had one one and done I actually have had quite a few people who found pregnancy just well actually I was in that club very much myself with the first baby I found it I think I've heard of quite a few people who found pregnancy just, well, actually, to be perfectly honest, I was in that club very much myself with the first baby. Were you?

Yeah. Just, I thought I was going to love being pregnant. I thought I was going to rock it. And I was just like, oh, no, I'm terrible at it. Didn't feel good. Didn't want to see anyone. Just felt a sort of grey version of myself, I think, for that time. But that was how many years ago?

A very long time ago now. I was shocked because I've known you all this time and I didn't know you had that many kids. You just have such a grace. Oh, that's kind. Yeah, you've managed to be everything I've seen, always just be

keep your independent self and not be only about your kids. Because that's the one thing I remember before I had kids, it was seeing people who had kids and they only talked about their kids the whole time or you know um I think it is important to keep that sense of self in which I feel like you have yeah and also you don't know how you're going to feel about it do you you really don't and I think you get this sort of instinct and I think there's so much about parenthood and being responsible for a child that's really uniting and then there's all this really bespoke stuff that comes out

and I think sometimes the things you think you're going to feel you end up feeling the opposite yeah um but do you think you always thought motherhood would be something you do at some point I actually was like um like I was like I I actually was like, I'm too young to do that for a long time. I was married for 13 years before I had a kid, before we had a kid. And it was interesting. I had some healing. I had some kind of body healing, like body work. Okay.

Yeah, it's kind of like people are starting to do, you know, therapy where it's like your emotions are kind of in your muscles. Like, you know, so sometimes when people are working, chiropractors and like you end up actually going to some deeper stuff. And I had some work like that. I was doing yoga and I just had some inner healing and suddenly I was ready. Okay. Yeah.

So this is about sort of unlocking things, I suppose. It's to do with what you carry in yourself. Yeah, because I was a second mother to my youngest brother who was, I was eight, nearly eight when he was born. And I just grew up feeling like a mum so I just I felt like I don't want to I don't want to be I'm not ready to be a mum again like and I think when I healed that piece um and then I was like yeah let's do it well yeah because before we started recording we were talking a little bit about bigger families because you're one of four. Yeah. So you in the running order, you're the second one down there.

Yeah, and your second oldest daughter is always really the oldest. Okay. Is that how it works? At least in our family. I mean, I only have boys, so we don't have that. Because girls mature faster than boys, so yeah. My parents would put me in charge of my older brother and everyone, yeah. Oh, right, okay.

Yeah, so you definitely had that hat hat and I think you were saying that because we were talking about characteristics that come out of kids when they are automatically part of this little community yeah and I was saying I think some things you get amplified and some things get turned down depending on what other you know characters you've got to rub against yes and there's obviously a lot of things that come out of big families that I think could be great. But there's also other things we think, golly, you know. It's often like happy memories, but they're going through it at the time.

Sometimes very mature. Some kids come out a bit more mature, and then the parents are like, oh, they're so mature, let's give them more responsibility. But sometimes they get parentified a little young. And that can have other, it can have great effects, like being more responsible. But it can also, there can be some healing that needs to be done from that I think yeah I think that's really interesting you really sort of given me of course to think about all of that

especially when you said how the the sort of dynamics I mean look everybody's affected by the family they grow up in of course I like how you described it that you said like filling the gaps or people choose well that's what I feel like with my my kids because I feel like they've sort of it's almost like some of the kids will come along and be like right has anyone taken this characteristic yet and I'll go oh no no one's actually done that and I'll go great that'll be that'll be the thing that I do then and they'll sort of fill in the gaps of what hasn't gone before and then if you if there's another character that's quite similar, you might diminish or amplify just so that within the culture of the house,

you feel like there's, you know, I suppose you're always trying to strike balance. And have enough air for everyone, like enough kind of breathing room. And yeah, everyone needs to have their thing. Yeah. So in my family, Daniel, he was like the most, he was like a Michael Jackson or, you know, like just one of those most talented kids that you see. You're just like, oh, you're ridiculously talented. So he, he already took that one. And like, even if you ask my dad,

like the other day we asked my dad, can describe um like your all your four kids in in in two words and he said Daniel ridiculously talented and then he said Natasha she works really hard okay that's also not two words but um thank you I mean pedantic of me but I guess that's interesting I can't tell if he was joking I think he wasn't but but I guess that's interesting I can't tell if he was joking I think he wasn't but well I guess it's interesting isn't because I mean look I do work hard you work really hard but also um I suppose this is a bit like well it's so hard to avoid the labels that can be put on how what you're known for within your own family. But also it's interesting because, you know, again,

before we were recording, you said it sort of entered into like a belief system about yourself. Yes. You feel like, well, okay, the singer's already taken. So when you did come to explore your musical talents and passion, did that make it hard for you to find it, to give yourself permission to be on stage and actually just go, oh, this is what I want to be doing?

I remember it just being this, I just couldn't, I was like, it was kind of this, I know this is your thing, but I can't not do it, I have to. Like it was this, it kind of became compulsive, like this thing that I just wanted to come out. And it was a way of expressing and a way of talking and a way of communicating that was really empowering and you know I just remember that like having a discussion and being

like sorry like this isn't just your thing you know and it's funny because even my younger sister has it and our younger brother too like we all have that gift of songwriting and singing um so the ridiculously talented going to Daniel is affects all of you yeah and you kind of have to just it's just like anything you have to go well that just you know and my parents think that i'm talented they they really do uh they're very proud um so there's sometimes one little thing a parent will say to you will just stick with you and they don't even believe that anymore yeah but you've got you've got to let it go well they don't even remember saying it they don't remember saying it we've probably done that to our kids already.

Yeah. I know. We've said the thing they're going to bring up in 20 years. Well, that's the thing. You have to know that your kids aren't going to get away with not having therapy. Yeah. Or just hope that, yeah. I mean, it's that poem, isn't it?

They fuck you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. It's just the sort of like, things just come out and family dynamic. But out of it is also, you know, resilience, love, bonds, all the good stuff. Were you born in the UK and then travelled to New Zealand? Our parents come from New Zealand and they immigrated to England just after Daniel was born and then

they had me in England yeah and did you stay here after you went back there like we would go like we would travel there um and visit our family there um and we would kind of our accents would change like when we go there because we wanted to be New Zealander so bad because it's such an amazing country so we'd be like oh yeah you know oh that know, oh, that's so true. You know, like, hey, you know, we just try and fit in with our cousins and everything. And, you know, New Zealand eats the most ice cream in the whole world. So we just eat a huge, like you can go to these places. Is that an actual fact or just your observation? Well, it was.

I don't know if it's changed to Iceland now, but it was a fact at some point. I like it. They also have the most car crashes. Okay. Yeah, all these countries have these things. Unrelated. Yeah. Yeah, unrelated.

I don't think eating ice cream. But there is an amazing ice cream place as you're driving somewhere, and it's like five scoops all on top of each other. And then they can't see the road. Yeah, exactly. And they cover it with chocolate and the chocolate gets hardened and then you have to eat it so fast before it all rolls down your hand. Wow.

Yeah. They've taken it to the nth degree with the ice cream. Everything in New Zealand is extreme, yeah. They do a lot of extreme sports and things. I do remember it's a very very beautiful place I haven't been for a long time but I do remember it's colors like extraordinary colors yes absolutely um so what elements of your childhood do you think are similar for your son are there many things you think have married up or is it quite a different childhood that's a really good question I haven't

thought about it um well he's an only child so that's very different um hopefully not a lonely one no no he's he's um he's uh I don't know like and he goes like you know when people go which part of you did he get with I don't know I think it's probably quite different because my mum wasn't a singer. He's been very good and very flexible. And I think because of how he is, we were able to do quite a lot of amazing things, like bring him with us. Yeah, he's been quite easy to travel with. I think as well, if you have one child, that becomes a lot easier because,

I mean, I can't really travel with the kids en masse because it adds in so many more logistics yeah so having one means you get to actually bring them along

for the adventure how many rows like if you're on a plane like do you take a whole row uh yeah it's usually a bit of that

yeah yeah seven people you have to organise who's sitting with who before you get on the plane otherwise that becomes a thing so there are kids where i'd be like those two cannot sit next to each other and what about christmas presents do you have to give them all like equal

gifts uh they do notice about fairness yes yeah and father christmas i'm told he like counts out to make sure that everybody gets the same number of things in their stockings wow okay it's all got to be worked out kids are like very hot on what's fair you can't I'm sure in your family growing up must have been you would notice wouldn't you yeah yeah well that's interesting that you had your brother when you were eight that you felt like felt like you were parenting because I had exactly the same thing with my little brother and I think yeah I absolutely loved it but it also completely changed everything for me, having him around and just loving it.

What was he like when your songs became hits? Like, was he around for it? Yes. So, well, initially he was obviously quite little. So I started singing when I was sort of 16, 17, and he would come along to gigs, but he was only really little then. But now he's the drummer in my band. So it's quite cute actually, yeah. So I now get to travel with my little brother, which is really cute. That's so cute. It's really wholesome,

isn't it? It's like the cause. Exactly. And I was interested to look at your roots in songwriting and so much of it coming from the church because I think that that's quite a specific remit in terms of how to write oh yeah as that just did that sort of define what came after writing in that way like thinking about a congregation and also being able to write songs that are uplifting and happy I think writing happy uplifting songs is much harder it is hard than writing songs that are yeah you know sad or sassy or anything like that like I write a lot more sad songs um because and I kind of have to get through the sad songs so they're happy songs to come it's kind of a journey in itself like therapy so there's just like a process to get into that bit they're hard like you're you're exactly right they're hard and the and you try to be clever like it's more fun as a songwriter to try and

be clever and have a double meaning and um it's hard to get past the ego as well like I want to be seen as cool or um you know I want to like I want the musicians to admire me as well. But I think for me, like the more of the drive is I want everybody to feel connected and to feel like they're understood or like I've expressed something that was hard to say. Like that's the kind of thing that I kind of more like gravitate towards. And I think like the journey of like a song of like it just takes you from from where you're feeling and maybe elevate elevate like going through it yeah I really love what you're saying there because

I think that makes complete sense about that thing about everybody feeling like you've articulated something that's happening that isn't that just what music is so brilliant at? When you hear the right song at the right time, and you're like, yes, oh my gosh, that song is speaking completely to me. It's also what comedy is all about, right? And like hearing a comedian, and they're talking about something very, very private, and you're like, that's not just me.

Yeah, that's so true. Yeah. So how significant, because I think there is definitely a thread of musicians where they've taken that that style of writing this the type of writing that does work in church that does work in congregation is about praise and and and harmony and all joining in yes if is that one of those things that for you you feel like if you understand that about you you understand a lot about how you write or is it more like just what you the process you know what happened to you in your story for me it was a good um

like a good training ground in a way of like um a way um the music takes you somewhere else I remember as a kid being really loving that part of being in church and that the music you travel somewhere um and that you feel connected to people and you feel connected to a higher thing, to a concept like God or higher power. And it was very powerful. It was very uplifting for sure. So I think probably like, I mean, I feel like every time I'm in a crowd, there's that energy thing.

Yeah. Definitely. No, it's interesting because I think I didn't start writing at all until I was in my 20s, and I didn't, I sort of came at it a lot more kind of, I suppose from, like, sort of bedroom, like, in my thoughts, angsty teen sort of school of writing. So that's what I'm asking about because I think I think already having that mindset for how to sort of just give yourself over to that the beauty of everything joining together is not necessarily how most people start writing when they're just

in their bedrooms writing for themselves it's kind of like a different set of a different intention maybe but like right people say write for one and then you write for everyone oh yeah so you're like you're talking to one person and it just somehow that's the part it's like the more person like the more personal it is and you've probably been in those songwriting camps where I like I have where especially if you have a pop hit then your label puts you with a lot of other pop writers and then everyone's trying to write a hit song and when you're trying to write a hit song it's not personal so much it kind of feels like it's being clever

or gimmicky or like anyone could sing it yeah I know it's hard to story tell as well when you're writing with lots of people and it's all a bit like story tell yes the objective here is to write a song

that kind of works like this by the end of the day. And isn't it hard to believe when you tell a story that that would, like that your story might, like your story of having a kid, having a brother who when you were eight, it's similar to my story. And who would have known that? Because in that moment you feel quite alone.

It's true. Yeah. Yeah. Unique. Yeah, no definitely. Yeah. No, definitely. I think, I just, do you think it's funny? Because now that we are both experiencing a new adventure with a song that we first did. Were you 22 when Unwritten came out? Yeah. See, I was 22 when Murder came out.

Are you kidding? No, it's so funny, isn't it? That is weird. Yeah, really weird. Oh, gosh. So for me, it's like I've taken out that is weird yeah really weird oh so for me it's like it's like I've taken out a box file in my head yeah it's got a bit dusty yeah not singing the song you and I've both been singing those songs since then yes like every day yeah exactly but the box file

of how I felt when it first when I was in that stage of my career which I hadn't really thought about for a long time. Yeah. And some of it was wild and wonderful, and some of it was like, ugh, it's like awkward remembering it. Things have changed a lot since then. So there was like a lot of sexism. So you kind of put that in a box, and also you don't notice it because it's how things were. So it's confusing, isn't it, when you start talking about it,

and you're like, huh, what? Yeah, and I think also just feeling like you start off doing what you do um and it's quite a personal thing and then by the time you get to you know an album where it starts to take off it becomes this committee of people making decisions and trying to hold on to who who you are and what your intention is and what you're up to and having a nice time doing it, thank you. It's quite hard just to hold on to that rudder, I think. And sanity. Yes, sanity, yes.

Definitely. I mean, when you look back on that first rush of everything with your first album, and actually I've just realised we've got more parallels because I think you worked with Sophie Muller, didn't you? Yes. For these words. You worked with Sophie Muller, didn't you? Yes. For these words. You worked with Sophie Muller. Yeah.

I forgot about that. And that's where I met our makeup artist that you and I both share. Yes. Lisa. Lisa Lather. Yeah, who I still work with. Who's the best makeup artist ever. Yeah.

So Lisa is amazing hair and makeup, and she actually is my third Boy's Godmother. Wow. And then Sophie Muller, video director extraordinaire, who's my fifth boy's godmother. So the friendship and the relationship, as you know, they just run on for years, which is so nice. But it's funny thinking back to that bit and just feeling, yeah,

like that accelerate that happened with my career and travelling all over the place. And some of it was place and some of it was glorious and some of it I was like oh my goodness just feeling busy for busy's sake and also worrying about what's happening next and will I get a chance to make another album and how do I really feel and what just needing everything to percolate a little bit so I could kind of make sense of things a bit and it all happens and then everyone wants you to explain why it happened and you're like, I don't know. Like, what makes me an expert?

Like, it's just happening. Yeah, yeah. In a way. And has your relationship with performing and music, do you think it's stayed fairly consistent in the middle of all of this? I think it's, like you said, like life changes you, so you become better, like, you know, more experienced, and the experiences that you have make the songs make more sense, that kind of thing, more connected to it.

And looking at your timeline, it looks like you've been quite good at making sure you've got time where you can just songwrite and produce and go back to the roots of what matters to you. Because I'm an introvert, so I have to really create time to think and to process it myself because I'm not an outward processor. So I don't actually ever process things out loud. It's very hard to.

I have to kind of think about it first. So how does your... Because I think I'm quite of think about it first so how does your because I think I'm quite a shy person too so how does it manifest do you feel like you've got like when you're on stage you can feel big and ready for that but then you need to be able to like if you were out socially are you good at like working a room and things or are you kind of like I'll just stay in one corner and I'm quite I'm quite good at working a room like I guess like when I'm working then like I know how to like under the under the thing of work I'm able to do superhuman things but then I have to go home and kind of like then I'm quite sensory so I'm realizing this word sensory but then I'm like like sound loud sounds um kind of

keep going in my head for a long time afterwards so i have to go away and like just be quiet and things like that decompress a little bit from things yeah regulate yeah so actually i think you've had to be quite clever with yourself to make sure that all your sensitivity and your needs are well met actually so that you don't end up losing bits of yourself that matter to the to what you could give into but that's why like I'm looking at your house right now and I'm really impressed because I don't I haven't set my I haven't done this where where you've really like all over your house just shown your personality through your house like I mine is much more in my

uh creative work okay I put it into that but I'm not so haven't been so visual like I haven't put I haven't put awards up or like I don't know but that also can just be the way people are like that you're more you're more um style style stylistic than I am you know yeah I suppose it's all quirks of what makes you feel good and yeah if you can't I mean there are no awards on show I just want to make a claim no no I see these as your awards this is your

so to me this is your these are your defamable goods yeah this is your like things that you've collected yeah like lots of trinkets like really showing

your personality that's interesting you say about awards we have only got one in the room it's an Ivan Avello and it's Richards I mean I don't have

many awards I don't have one of them I don't actually have a lot of awards I'm like whatever I worked with someone yesterday i was songwriting yesterday and i went to the to their downstairs loo and it was filled with awards i like when people put it in the loo it's like i said to him after that like you're happy that i've been to the loo because

i've seen everything it's like a humble brag isn't't it? Very much so. It's kind of like virtue signaling. They know I'm going to need a wing at some point. It's like, oh, my acknowledgements are shit. But I want you to see them. But actually, I think you have to do what works for you. And I think, so when you say home, are you thinking of your home in New York? Yeah. Is that where home is?

Yeah. How long have you been in that place? Well, I've only been there for a year. Oh, that's new. Yeah. You could build up to this level of stuff. Thank you. How long have you been in that place? Well, I've only been there for a year. Oh, that's new. You could build up to this level of stuff. Thank you. Dream big.

I could probably send you away with a suitcase to take home with you, to be honest. I've got a load of stuff behind that sofa waiting for the charity shop. You want it? Trinkets are us. Another way that we've linked up, I don't want to, you're going to ask a question, but there is another connection.

Yeah? Is that Danielle, who I wrote Unwritten with, Oh, yes. she was in a band with Greg Alexander, who you wrote Murder on the Dance Floor with, right? Yes, yes. I know, so our songs are like cousins. Yeah, and what's their song is called,

his song is called Don't Give Up. Yes. Yeah. You only get what you give. Yeah. Oh, that's it. I was singing Rick Astley's song, is it Don't Give Up? No, that's You only get what you give. Yeah. Oh, that's it. I was singing Rick Astley's song, is it Don't Give Up?

No, that's never going to give you up. Never going to give you up. Wait, you get what you give. Wait, that is Don't Give Up. It says that. Don't give up. You got the music in you. It's probably called You Got the Music in You.

Yeah. Forgive us, Greg and Danielle. We do know what song you did and we love it. Yeah, we do. Yeah, we love it. And we love the songs you did with us too. Did you end up working more with Danielle? Yeah, I wrote another song with Danielle called Pocket Full of Sunshine.

Oh, yes. Lovely. She and I have got a good flow. And how did you find, so when you had your little boy, what was going on after you had him because you you wrote with linda perry after that is that yeah so when i had a baby i was like keep working keep working like i just didn't want to like stop so like i went and got record deal and i um it was amazing because she's a very strong female and we wrote some really great

stuff and it was fun to have like my my kid in the studio like have him in there and you know pumping breast milk in the other room and then go back in there and uh write some write some melodies and yeah it feels quite wholesome in a way doesn't it because you've got your new baby and then you're feeling like yeah I can just mother earth yeah just write and sing and just connect with that and it's not the extrovert side of things it's kind of quite squirrely and yeah feels nice doesn't it yeah you've done that I have yeah it feels really good I really enjoyed it and it felt very like safe actually cozy one of the things that people were asking me this week because I've

been in England all week it's like please bring back like when are you going to bring back new music and that's the funny thing is that I've been writing music this whole time and I think it's because they want it to sound like the original stuff but then if I release something that sounds exactly like the original stuff then it's not going to be growing or new so it's like hard to it was a hard one to answer because I've always been writing and I've released bits even like during the pandemic I put some things out but just because they weren't hits doesn't mean I wouldn't release them you know I know but I think there's a weird thing that happens with anyone who's lucky enough to have song or songs that people know them for there's always this sort of expectation that you're going to go and do that

part too and actually people don't really want you to do that so all you can really do is what works because it'd be a bit gimmicky like, let's do another murder on the dance floor. Like, so now let's do the opposite of murder. Unwritten on the dance floor. Living. Let's jam it now. It's piano here.

Well, like maybe bring it. We'll tick both boxes. Doing CPR. CPR on the dance floor. So you like, row someone to life. Yeah. Just everything.

Just flip the words. Put it all into a thesaurus yeah put the chords in a different order backwards yeah but people don't even really want that anyway but i think that the the real beauty if you're lucky enough is surely to just be able to keep doing what you do to keep being able to write to keep being able to produce keep being able to sing keep doing your gigs that's what brooke shields i had had the the uh like this the opportunity to hang out with her and she's just like she said that was her secret it's just to to just to don't ever stop like just to it doesn't matter like just

doesn't matter like don't judge it if it's like don't compare that what you're doing but just keep doing what you do and do what you love. Yeah, I think momentum is the happy bedfellow of creativity. I love that. Wow, that's an amazing quote. We need to put that on the wall. Momentum is the... I was saying, yeah, the happy... Because I think if you're a creative person,

momentum is your friend. Energy is your friend. When it goes quiet, that's when it's tricky because then you feel like you're pushing the boulder all by yourself. But when there's a little bit where it kind of rolls by itself and then you're like, oh, this is quite fun, then you feel good, I think. I think that's such a secret to creativity.

Yeah, I think that's what you're looking for. Yeah. And I was looking through pictures on Instagram. First of all, your little boy is very beautiful he's very sweet little little man but I didn't realize that he was really quite ill for a little bit when he was how old was he when he was in hospital two yeah nearly two so are you okay to talk about that because I thought yeah that's a big thing you had to go then obviously you I think you were writing about because you're saying we are now on from this big event yeah I and I shared about it at the time

that it was happening and it was it was so devastating in the moment and um like I was I just come off I did that album and I went on tour and he came with us and it was amazing and then like a week later he suddenly had a seizure and um he couldn't talk and he couldn't walk and um we went to the hospital so frightening for you. Yeah, he had a spontaneous brain abscess and they had to operate on him. And luckily, like, it has a cure. It's something that happens. And we were there for five weeks.

Five weeks, that's long. Because we had to do two surgeries. And, you know, like, when something like that happens and you're just so grateful, I was just so grateful for the whole hospital system and like probably quite a good, like good in an emergency of just like holding it together. But, you know, then like my friend said to me,

the first time, the next time he gets a cold, you know, for the rest of his life, you're always going to worry. And I was like, please don't say that over me. I don't want to become an anxious person from it. But, but we did, we did have a, like a moment like that. I was like, she's right. When we took him to hospital, like a year later, and we got some scans and they were like, he's a hundred percent better. And it was so good to have that peace of mind. Like everything's fine. And sometimes things like that happen. Yeah yeah and I think actually hospitals would rather you know turn you away with

your little one being fine they never say why are you wasting our time exactly never once done that so it made me really trust uh or and be grateful for for like doctors and you know really yeah and I think it's like a little insight into the fact that, you know, there's this sort of whole, I suppose they must feel like a subculture of parents where they're with their child and the end of the road is not going to end up with them going home.

Yeah. And you sort of glimpse, don't you, sort of behind the curtain of this other world. Which is a lot of people. Yeah, a lot of people. And it's like, you're so good with words, because that's totally what it is. And you just, it forever changes you in that way that you can, you understand how fragile the balance is and how,

I really like how every single person has gone through something that's been devastating at some point in their life or is going through absolutely and just how strong people are yeah and I think how things can just change on a dime as well you get that thing of like I mean I'm sure I'm not alone and sometimes I'll wake up in the morning and think is this the day is this the day when everything changes and you sort of have to kind of get yourself over that hurdle don't you because it's not a very helpful way to think well sometimes even when great things happen that can be a tendency to be like oh well they can like only go down like you know you've got to stop yourself from thinking like that for sure like yeah that's very true but I am so so glad that there was such a happy ending but thank

you because I think that I was when I was reading up about it I saw that you had to go and do a gig in that time because you'd already committed to something and I'm thinking I did that must have been one of the toughest things. It really was. To sort of be getting yourself ready and putting your makeup on and getting ready for a show. I remember this. I couldn't do small talk.

So I'd be at an event like that. My son was still in hospital and I couldn't, I couldn't, I would just blurt it out. Like, everyone's making small talk and I'd be like, my son's in hospital. And I'm trying to like, sorry to like, because everyone wants to be happy yeah you know and I couldn't really hide it I couldn't um yeah it was it's interesting and sobering yeah but I think that's very normal and I know that whenever I've been going through something it's almost like that's how I I don't

know get my sort of counseling from people really is people really is I just keep talking about it to people. And most people look at you a bit like, a little bit of oversharing there. And every once in a while you'll get someone who'll say something like, oh, that happened to me or that experience or something comforting. But I'm sort of looking for the bit where I just get a little cushion back at myself really

because otherwise I'm just feeling a bit alone in the middle of it. I think things that are on your mind, they're just sort just there, aren't they? You can't push those back. And you know, when you're going through things like that, you think people must be able to see. Like, it really is like that, you know, Smokey Robinson song that goes, the tracks of my tears, like, take a good look at my face. You'll see the smile looks out of place. But like, if you look closer closer it's easy to trace the tracks of my tears and you just think can't you just see how broken I am like can't you see it this has destroyed me and people don't see they can't see it yeah like you know yeah uh and they

don't some people don't want to see it yeah well I think it can be a bit of a jarring juxtaposition if your job is usually associated with uplift or entertainment yeah exactly my son is in hospital while you're like tap dancing exactly exactly um they don't always want to know but also you know there's a part of our job that is that being an entertainer and having to just sort of compartmentalize that put that that in a little box, okay, off I go, the show must go on kind of vibe. But I think that must have been really scary and I'm just sorry you went through it,

but I'm glad it's a thing that you can talk about in past tense. Thank you, me too. Yeah, so what plans did you already have for this year before your song also had this swirling around? Is it the 20th anniversary of your songs too then? Something, I think probably. I'm a bit older than, I'm 44. Are you? I'm 42.

Yeah, so. I think I'm not 32, but I'm 42. Yeah. Oh, wow, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for me, it came out, well, it's 22 years ago now. Wow. There's a lot of twos in my experience of this.

Numerology, that would be cool. In fact, fun fact, when Murder First came out, it went to number two in the charts because Daniel was number one. That's amazing! You know what, though? That's amazing. Such a good song. Such a good song.

Still sounds so good. Okay, we've got to call him. That's funny. So he's amazing. That's a good song. Such a good song. Still sounds so good. Okay, we've got to call him. That's funny. So he's 44. Right. Oh, I love that. And he's also been kind of, he also did press like a week ago in England. He's got a show coming up.

Right. Yeah, so what I'm doing is I was thinking of celebrating the 20th anniversary this year I think it's it'll be in September so I was thinking of doing some fun shows

and maybe putting some new music out or something we'll see if I can get it together in time for that but yeah that'll be good

I was interested as well to hear you I know you write but also production is something that you do as well yeah I love it I don't think every singer

does that actually or songwriter does that yeah I don't think every singer does that actually or songwriter does that yeah I'm very I love to um I like really hear music a lot and I really love to kind of like yeah but I always co-write I always co-write as well so I always work with other people is that because you just like having the energy of working with someone else yeah I love the energy I love um what it's like an experiment, a chemistry experiment, you know? I also feel like I'm much better when I work with someone else because I sort of self-edit in a different way.

Yes. If I'm on my own, I can't really tell the good ideas and the bad ideas sometimes. I'm exactly the same. Yeah, is it good? Yeah. And then I get turned off everything I've done as well if I'm on my own.

Just like, it's all rubbish. They're all amazing, they're all rubbish. Exactly. Someone else can go, yeah, we're keeping that. Yeah, that's what I need. Someone I respect that I can just cling on to. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Well, I think it's really good fun, and I just think it's hilarious that we've both got this, we've had all these pairings, but then we're having this moment as well. And, you know, it's so funny. I've actually found it very comforting when I've been talking about murder to know you're doing the same thing with Unwritten, because firstly, I, it's so funny. I've actually found it very comforting when I've been talking about murder to know you're doing the same thing with Unwritten.

Because firstly, I think it's like you get these sort of lightning strike moments, don't you? I think what's happened to both our songs is quite extraordinary, actually. It is. And it's beyond our control. It's not something we did, even though we did those songs. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

But also, I think it sounds like you were already on. I mean, I know as well. Look, obviously, the song was in a film which has taken it to the next level. But actually, last summer at Mighty Hoopla, the crowd you had singing to all your songs in the sunshine. Oh, it was amazing. It was mind-blowing. So sensational.

I think it was like 30,000 people, and they were all singing it. And I was so shocked because my label sent me away to America and it was a hit in America but I didn't think it was a hit in England what was it like when it was taking off in America was it exciting yeah but it was it was a it was the slowest um climb ever it was like six months every day it climbed every week it climbed one one spot um and then it stuck around it's like six months yeah every day I was in a different state different radio station like I just did I worked hard you did true to what my family say about me but I I did I was like I'm gonna work let it not be said yeah I don't I'm

not afraid of hard work it's true um because at that time the labels were like, oh, Robbie Williams, he tried to do it, but he wasn't willing to go to the radio stations. So you were like the gauntlet. I was like, okay, I can work hard. And so I just like, you know, literally sang to people who were eating pizza because the contest, like the radio, gave them free pizza or something, you know.

And then they played the song. I do think that a graft has to come into it. It does. Graft is such a good word. I love that. Yeah. It just has to because ultimately there's billions of people out there doing the same things. So you've just got to be like this uncomplaining little presence.

If you care about it. Oh, do it. And I did learn to say no after a while. That's a good thing, though. Yeah, it is. It really is. Well, I'm thrilled for you, Natasha. I think it's such a good thing,

and I'm very happy that it meant we could meet up in person. Me too. And I think now we should just, well, actually, we could just, we can run our careers again. We could just do whatever songs we both released after Unwritten and Murder as the next song. That's a good idea.

And then we can just take some time off. Or we just click reset. Yeah, exactly. We could write another song. I think that would be fun. We could also, I would love to do something like present an award at the Brits together or something fun like that. That's so

true um yeah yes all right we'll be on your podcast yeah all of the above and as I say piano is waiting if we do the uh the collab uh both our songs combined everybody be so happy like what's next don't worry it's kind of murder part two it's sort of unwritten part two murder in the rain exactly it's waiting for us look at those lovely keys waiting for us rain on the dance floor see it's writing itself oh thank you so much and I love you

I love your song and I just it's like when good things happen to good people you're such a good person and you're so respected like anyone who talks about you

like they've always had good things everywhere I've ever been. And yeah, so it makes me happy to see. Well, I feel exactly the same thing. Exactly the same. And so much positivity around you as well. That's a nice thing.

It was so nice to catch up with Natasha and have such a proper conversation about her. Really quite fascinating childhood and family dynamic. Because actually, come to think of it, I met Daniel Bedingfield before I met Natasha. We were signed to the same label. And we also did things like Top of the Pops together. I miss Top of the Pops.

They should bring that back. Anyway, it was lovely to catch up with her and hear about her little boy soul. I'm so happy that he's all well after that terrifying brain abscess. I cannot imagine how scary that must have been. And I very much identify with that idea of keeping going with the work, even though you're kind of, everything is very close to the surface

and it all feels quite sort of surreal that you're going through something so dramatic when everybody just expects you to hop up and sing. I've definitely had similar experiences to that. Anyway, it was a complete joy to see her. And yeah, I think it was just really lovely. And I love, oh, you know me, I love talking to other singers. There's actually another singer I'm hoping will be part of this series, just to leave a little dot, dot, dot there. But mainly, really happy to be back. Got lots of lovely people I'm speaking to.

And hey, it's springtime, guys. And if you're listening to this in time don't worry if you get this like as soon as it's published on april the 8th don't worry you've still got time till april the 10th to sort my birthday present out birthdays are super important to me i love a birthday and uh that being said it's not my birthday today it's richard's i better go and see where he is and and uh go and shower him with some birthday cheer. All right. I'm really happy to be back with a new series.

Thank you so much as ever for lending me your ears and thanks to Richard and Claire and Ella May for making the podcast possible. Yeah. I really, really love it. It's funny.

When I started, I thought maybe I'd do one series and it's like, okay, I'll do another, I'll do another and now it's just very much part of my life and as you know an excuse to talk to some amazing people right anywho I'm gonna go and get

into that Italian sunshine I will see you soon and um yeah lots of love have a wonderful week see you soon Thank you. you