Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 129: Anne Twist

Episode Date: May 27, 2024

Anne Twist is a first time writer and a long-term philanthropist who has two very succesful grown up children. Her eldest is podcaster and writer Gemma Styles, and her youngest is the singer, Harry Styles. I spoke to Anne, not long after she’d become a grandmother for the first time, which sounds like a very special feeling indeed. She’d also just published her first children’s book ‘Betty and the Mysterious Visitor’.We talked about Anne’s lifelong battle with shyness, the pride that she feels about the adults that both her children have become, and how she gets so much pleasure from looking around at people while they are watching Harry perform on stage. We also talked about how Anne has wing-walked to raise money and awareness for Parkinson’s. And I tried to persuade her to do a double wing walk and a loop the loop with me in the future! I’m genuinely up for it. Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing. It can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to spinning plates. No, they're tights. No, for a second I thought they were so dirty that they were...

You thought that the colour of my tights was the colour of my legs my legs no that your legs were like that and it wasn't you thought my legs were just really dark black sooty sooty legs they were really like dirty yeah no it's sheer tights very sheer right jesse i need to i need to talk to this Sorry, that started off unexpected way, didn't it? I came into the garden and Jessie's like, I'm wearing quite sheer tights. And he just said, I thought that was your leg colour. He thought my legs were sort of, I don't know, kind of sooty, sooty legs.

But no, sheer tights. Blimey, house is noisy everywhere. Sorry, train going past. I sound a little croaky, I think. I've had, oh, it's really annoying. So last week I felt like I was coming down with something. I managed to do my gig at Ibiza on Saturday night, but I was cruising for a bruising.

I was like, here we go. And sure enough, Sunday morning I woke up with zero voice. And no, I didn't have a big party night in Ibiza. I had one solo beer after I finished and that was it. And it was kind of annoying because on the flight on the way home, it sounded like I'd just been like living the wildlife in Ibiza. But really, I just have a nasty cough cold. So Sunday, I couldn't speak at all. I was supposed to record something on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. I had to cancel all of it. Well, I'll postpone.

And it's actually made me feel really flat. Turns out I love speaking and I love singing. Couldn't do either very well. So I'm getting better, but I'm not there. And I've got three gigs this weekend. Wish me luck. I think it'll be okay. It just won't be great.

I think the worst thing as a singer when you've got a voice like this is not that you can't sing at all, because that's quite unusual to be completely mute. It's the fact you haven't got much dexterity. My voice gets really kind of blocky, and I can't kind of move it around. It's not as... I can't manipulate it in the same way,

and I've lost some of my range, and it's made me feel a bit sorry for myself. I've also got a very tight cough. Poor me. Anyway, hope you're okay. I hope everything's going to be your world. I'm trying not to mention the weather, but I'm British, so I have to.

It's a nice day this afternoon, but it's been horrible this week as well. It's been like Monday boiling and rain, rain, rain, rain, rain. So London for you. Today I just had a meeting at my fancy new record label. I'm signed to Decca now. They actually seem really lovely.

And I was playing through loads of songs. I've been writing so many songs, guys. Like, so many songs. So I was checking out what I've got. And actually, I'm feeling pretty good. There were some really nice things in there and things I'd sort of forgotten I'd done and because I've been writing and then like not really looking back, like write a song, put it on the pile, next day a new song. And so I just kept going and going and going.

Hi Mickey. Yeah, some good stuff. Anyway, I'm going to speak fast because I feel like I'm going to be interrupted. This week's guest is a very lovely woman called Anne Twist. Anne's written a very beautiful children's book that I've read to my small people. And I was interested in her book writing. I was also interested in her as a person because she also happens to be Harry Styles' mum. And I was curious to know what it feels like when one of your children, look, everybody in a family dynamic is influenced by each other. That's family life, isn't it? That's what we all talk about. But it's very unusual to, how do I phrase this, to have to recalibrate your uh family dynamic on account of extreme fame and i say this very consciously like a level of success and celebrity like that is unusual it's not the norm it's certainly nowhere near where i'm at you know it's it's an next level so global

success global superstardom and anne is the lady who set the ball in motion because not only through the mothering and giving confidence to her children jemma and harry but also from the fact that she was the one who could see what Harry could offer and put him in for the competition that ended up setting him on the path, the trajectory to what he now does. So I was curious to hear about all of that. Plus, I just think Anne's a really lovely presence. We'd met once before and I just really liked her. One of those people you just think, oh, I want to sit with you and chat with you. She's also just become a grandma. Her daughter Gemma's just had a little baby. So that's exciting. Another new chapter as well. So lots of lovely stuff. And it was a real

pleasure to sit with her and talk. And yeah, I'm really grateful to her for sharing her wisdom. And I'm also really impressed by her. It's come back to me over and over again, the idea that Anne tried to overcome her own shyness, her own lack of confidence for the sake of her children, for modelling it for her kids so that they would not, you know, would hopefully avoid that feeling of discomfort she would feel in social situations because she modelled for them what she wanted for them. I think that's actually like one of the sort of most incredible things you can do for your kids, isn't it?

To sort of quash your own insecurities so that you don't pass them on to your kids. I think that was really lovely. Anyway, I'll leave you for now and yeah, see you on the other side. But it's, yeah, a really lovely chat. Thank you. thank you so much for coming over thank you um yeah it's a pleasure and why don't we start with the here and now? What are you up to at the moment? Well, not a massive amount.

I'm coming out the other end of the January sludge. It's just always been not a very nice time. And probably worse since I lost Robin and that made it just seem the days were endless and dark and I lost all the will to go out and do anything or speak to anybody or so I just kind of hibernated away really um it has got better I took myself away a few years ago before Covid um I just decided to book myself a holiday so I found a little apartment in a place in Tenerife that I'd never been to before and I went for a month um and that was probably one of the scariest things I've ever done because I've never been away on my own I didn't know where I was going so yeah I did that and you know even

things like going out for dinner on my own I'd never done it so I think it took me three days before I actually didn't eat something from the supermarket. And I went out and I was on the phone to my friend. I was like, I've got my book. And I sat in this little Indian restaurant and spoke to her, had a meal, had a glass of wine, read my book, and actually realised nobody cares. Nobody cares if you're sat there on your own.

And from then on, and it was fine, I went everywhere. I took my book with me, so I'm not staring into space like an idiot. But yeah, I really enjoyed it, and it really did me good. And I did it the following year as well. And then COVID hit. So I've not done it since. But I think I might do it next year. Because this year was not great.

Yeah. And, well, it's funny. We've only just started speaking. And, obviously, firstly, I'm so sorry you lost your husband so cruelly. So that was back in, where are we 2017 was that yes yeah but I know that's a huge thing and when you love someone and they aren't there anymore I've had to see close up what that's like through my I mean I lost my stepdad um come out to four years now yeah so I've seen obviously had my own grief but witnessing how it affected my mum yeah it's such a big thing to lose your person and she always said that she kind of knew who she was because she could see herself reflected back through how he saw her I think

there's lots of things about the every day about how you spend your day the casual obviously the far-reaching big stuff but the intimate the casual things about how you spend your day, the casual, obviously the far-reaching big stuff, but the intimate, the casual things about how you share your life. So I'm so sorry that you had to go through that. It's very strange, actually, because, I mean, it's been seven years this year and sometimes it feels like yesterday. And it's weird. I think people think, oh, it gets better with time.

It's just different with time. Because the longer it goes on, the more you're aware of the fact that they're not there. And you're not doing the things that you should have been doing. Your life hasn't quite turned out the way you thought it was going to. Yeah. And also, you don't stop loving someone just because they're not there. No.

And so the relationship is still continuing. It's just in a new place. It's quite hard to come to terms with sometimes. It's huge. And I imagine grief's also not chronological. So I think for, again, what my mum has spoken to me about is about how as you say it doesn't get easier you just I mean what's the cliche learn to live with it but you just kind of you're you're in a new new chapter with her yeah yeah you you you sort of become a new person

because you're the person that you were with someone. You're now, you can't be that person anymore. So you're sort of finding a new you as well, if you like, which can be quite strange. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, said we've only just started speaking but i i've already gained so much about your your strength i think going away by yourself like that is actually quite

a huge thing to do and having to just overcome those challenges of eating by yourself and just as you say coming into this new bit and obviously when you're this you want to be like your best version of yourself or the person you've lost as well you want to kind of honor them by still yes absolutely still being you but you've that takes so much and to go through all that but also the fact that you're so open to talking about it I think is also really a really special thing because I think that that already shows me your how you are emotionally as a person as well because I think I mean we'll get onto all this later but when I've been you know looking closer it's you know you and picturing what sort of strengths you must have as

a mother because when I speak to people I've spoken to lots of mothers who've got adult children but usually I don't really know anything about their adult children. And obviously with you, I can see elements. And I was thinking, actually, particularly with your daughter, I was thinking I love the way she's approaching her adulthood and the way she's approaching her emotions and her vulnerabilities and challenges and discussing it all and through things like podcasts. But I was thinking that must come from you.

That's obviously a bit of a trait in your family um I think um it's been it's been an effort I think for me over the years I mean I I am soft I've always been soft since I was little I'm you know I was the only one out of the group that would cry at Lassie and, you know, couldn't go and wouldn't go and watch it with all my friends at someone's house because I'd be the one that they'd take the mickey out of because I'd be the only one that was crying. And, you know, a Bambi and all that, which I know a lot of people did.

So, yeah, I've always been quite soft. My mum was really incredibly shy and so was I as a young child. And I think because she was so shy, painfully, I felt like I needed to not be that for my children. So, although when I was at school, I was really shy and didn't really have any friends. In fact, I had one friend who at some point then told me that I was boring and she didn't want to be my friend anymore. So then I had no friends. So then I found another friend.

It sounds really sad, but I found another friend who was sort of on the edge a bit, like me, I suppose, and wasn't really, I don't know, confident enough or what have you. Anyway, we sort of found each other and became friends, and that was great. I spent a lot of time with my brother and his friends who were older um but I didn't enjoy school because it was not a very comfortable place to be

um but I think um that particularly when I had my children, I made a conscious effort that I did not want to be, not that I didn't want to be like my mum, because I loved my mum with all my heart, but I didn't want that side. I didn't want that shyness bit that would hold me back. I didn't want them to feel what I'd felt. I wanted them to have more confidence. And I think in my naivety,

I thought perhaps that they would get that from me. I don't know whether they did or not. I mean, I'm not a particularly confident person um but I am considerably better than I was as a as a youngster um that's huge actually and it's interesting that you took a learned experience from seeing obviously you you know your daughter how your mum mothered you but you could see what what the price she had to pay for the things that held her back. Yeah.

So you think, right, I really want to... Because you became a mum, I think, when you were quite young, 23? Yes, I was 23 when I had my daughter. So that's the time when you sort of thought, right, I actually want to make sure that I model something. I'm not necessarily feeling all the time, but I want them to take from me. Yeah, it's, I think it's one of those, I've always felt like you kind of take the bits that you love and, you know, the sense of family and, you know, the Sunday lunches every Sunday around the table all those kind of things you take all that but then I sort of picked out the bits that I wanted to change slightly

I wanted a playroom for the kids when they were older because we didn't have one and all I remember is if I had friends around the house would either be And all I remember is if I had friends around the house, we'd either be sat in the kitchen or sat in the lounge. And I just wanted them to have somewhere their own space. So it's things like that. I just kind of picked and chose, I suppose, little bits. But yeah, the general family dynamic was, you know very old-fashioned I suppose dinners around the table on a Sunday you know family holidays just you know things like that but good stuff time together

yeah good stuff yeah good stuff good foundations yeah absolutely and I think a real like touchstone of what home is because I feel the same way about where I want to, you know, hope my kids remember their childhood. It's funny, I recently had my eldest move out, and I had this funny notion of almost asking him to sort of fill in a survey to find out how I did. How did I do as a mother? You can just rate out of five the following. Yes, would you recommend me?

Unsatisfactory, you know, passable, fine, great. Just in terms of, like, how good was I at responding to your worries? How good was it, you know, inable, fine, great. Just in terms of like, how good was I at responding to your worries? How good was it, you know, in terms of your own space? But, you know, always knowing I was there. But I think I've always felt, firstly, the thing you said about the childhood where you had the friend who then said you were boring. I know you said that's sad. I totally relate to that.

Although I think I can maybe trump that with my, I had two invisible friends when I was a kid and they ganged up on me oh oh so I think that's also quite sad it tells you something slightly lonely odd girl was like why aren't my invisible friends playing with me anymore Emily and Charlotte I still remember them oh goodness but um but I do think that it made me very keen I mean I'm sort of saying past tense I've still got young children it makes me very keen that home should be a place that is forevermore a place where they feel completely safe and accepted and seen and able to stretch their limbs into all the areas of themselves so they really get a good sense of who they are yeah without judgment yeah so sometimes your kids will do things and you kind

of know they're just trying on a hat to see how it fits and they probably will take the hat off after a while yeah be like if you can just have that time and it just be a safe space for you to do that then the world is wild and there's some great adventures but there's also things that can be quite intimidating scary make you question things so if home can always be this place that's been these four walls are a good place yeah I think what you're describing is not just traditional I think it's wholesome actually it's that wholesome thing of like what a sense of what family is what home is yeah that's probably exactly what I was trying to say but not quite as eloquent as you no it was eloquent but also I think it's I'm actually quite struck by your sense of self-awareness to actually start to think about what kind of a mum you'd be even

in your early 20s when you know you're basically coming out of a time when people are still going through lots of change themselves where you're thinking about what is important to you and what you want to impart and this is before you even know what journeys they're going to go on and what they're going to need yeah yeah so I think that's really impressive actually and I suppose when I was thinking back to my childhood there was a period of time where my mum was a single mum and I kind of used to gloss over it a little bit in terms of in my head it was like well then this happened and then there was that bit and then you know the next chapter yeah but I know there was a period of time when you would have been a similar boat I guess with your children and I wonder how

significant that was to your relationship um for me it was a fabulous time when it was just us. And there was a period when I was... Robin and I were together, but we didn't live together, so it was myself and the children. And at the time, I was working full-time. What were you doing at that time I worked for I've had lots of different jobs um I was working for an insurance company um and I used to PA for the sales director um because I felt like I had to have a proper job. Before that, I was a landlady.

I had a pub. Is that when the babies were born? No, they were. That was when my husband and I separated. And I was working. I bought this pub and I was working. I bought this pub and I was working and I remember for an insurance quote or something, I had to work out how many hours I was working. And I gave up when I got to 100 a week.

Oh, wow. I was like, I can't, I can't keep doing this how are you managing that um it was very difficult and I but I I didn't move the children's school so I had to do like an hour round trip twice a day to school but I wanted them to have that stability yeah um so I used to do the the school runs and then obviously everything else in between um they they coped with it but it's not something that I looking back I I I don't think it was the greatest thing for them. But I kind of console myself, if you like, with they saw me working hard to try and build something.

Also, you only did what you could with the options you had in front of you. So, you know, you were the same you, if you know what I mean. So you just were thinking, right, what can I do right here and now yeah I mean the difficulty was when I because when I I stopped work I used to work for a bank um and I stopped working when I had um my first child and then I I was I had the luxury of staying at home with them I had the luxury of staying at home with them. And I went back to work.

I knew I wanted to go back to work when my second child went to school. So when he was five. So for that sort of eight years, I was out of the workforce. And a lot happens in eight years um I didn't have a massive amount of qualifications um I'd left school because I said I didn't really enjoy it so I left school one day and I got myself a job and started work the next day um I started as a receptionist and I was too shy to answer the telephone so they had to teach me how to answer the telephone but bless them they did and and you know they were they were lovely with me I get that I don't really like answering phone

calls now yeah yeah just don't ring me text me exactly so when I went when I knew that I wanted to go back into work it was knowing what I could do but I also wanted to be there for the children so the only thing that I found that I could do was go into pub work now I'd done that when I was a teenager a lot I worked in pubs for years um but that's all I could find that would fit in with school hours yeah um do you think that helped as well with your shyness because I think in a pub you've got to be able to handle people and deal with the public all the time yes yes I yes, I think so. I think that kind of, I know when I first moved, well, we moved twice actually.

I moved house six weeks before I gave birth to my daughter. So we moved to a different area. I didn't know anybody. So we moved to a different area. I didn't know anybody. It was winter. And six weeks later, I had a little baby. Fairly understandably, I suppose,

I suffered with postnatal depression after I had her. But eventually that was sorted. I was medicated and that was sorted. I'm sorry you went through that. Thank you. And then we moved again when she was five. And so at that stage, my youngest was two. And it was sort of that going into school with her, you got that group of people that you met at the gates um but then I still had this two-year-old and I didn't want to be I didn't want to go backwards into being stuck at home not knowing anybody with a two-year-old who then you know picked up on my angst or whatever.

So that was a case of I forced myself to speak to somebody at the school gates, ask them about the mums and tots and what was in the area and all this sort of thing. So I found a group and I went to it and I think I went once or twice and I found it so difficult to sort of go in and just mingle with this massive room full of people. Yeah, so intimidating. Um, that I decided the best thing to do was offer to be the treasurer.

So I offered to be the treasurer, which meant that I sat on the door so I could meet these people and you had a role as they came in I had something to do something to concentrate on my child was thankfully happy as Larry to go and mingle and play. And I made friends and acquaintances without the pressure of having to sort of stand and have long drawn out conversations with people that I found quite difficult. But I got that initial, you know, meeting of people and it just sort of came from there, really. So I think that really helped. But that was a big, had to push myself and give myself a kick up the backside to do that

because I'd come from having made a group of friends where I'd been for five years and then moved away and started all over again. I think that's really impressive because I think a lot of people would have walked into the group and then just thought, I can't do this and not come back. So I'm really so impressed with your strength, really. But I'm getting the sense that because everything you've been talking about, there's lots of things you've been having to deal with.

But you've put your best foot forward with the emphasis on your children if we could talk about the bit so you get to the point where you said you know you look back and it was a really sort of happy chapter where you're you're on your own with your two kids and they're sort of in double figures and and normally when your kids get to secondary school age you know that somewhere on the horizon is the bit where you'll have to let them live their independent life but it's normally fairly comfortable distance but when we met before briefly and we were chatting you were telling me about how there was a really quick turnaround where your son and your daughter left home quite soon yes to get close together yes but so let's backtrack a little bit so you've got your elder

daughter doing a fairly a more traditional route of education school and then going off to university yes what what was leading up to the point where a talent show is coming to town and you're thinking great idea because that isn't I'm quite fascinated by that bit because I think you said it was your idea yeah to put your son into a into that environment what did you see in him that made you think that would be great I have and I know it's very easy to say with the benefit of hindsight but I have always known since he was two or three that there has been something that I used to say he would end up on the stage doing what I had no idea but he just always had something he was always happy

a proper little entertainer um you know entertaining the other kids there was just something um and then that must have been quite remarkable actually if you were thinking about your own you know your sort of natural introverted nature that must have been quite remarkable actually if you were thinking about your own you know your sort of natural introverted nature that must have been pretty incredible to have this little chap who's like hey yes absolutely innate confidence and I do wonder sometimes how you know the nature nurture because obviously you're doing things to challenge yourself but I do wonder how much of a a kernel of our of ourselves is there from the get-go you know like maybe 80 is just who they are you know yeah and as parents you kind of try and cushion the blows and navigate and give them all this stuff in the virtual backpack to go off and do things absolutely

yeah it's um i think i'm i've always felt like i've always wanted to encourage them to try things whatever it be whether it's a sport try it if you don't like it it doesn't matter um I I do quite often and I have quite often been known to say you know what's the worst that can happen but I get the sense that you're you've been kind of quite a gentle hand on their back rather than a kind of, you know, classic kind of like mum on the touchline, like go get them tiger kind of punchy type. But it's more like, as you say, what's the worst? Let's just try it.

Let's just try it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the show, the show that we all just used to watch as a family. This would have been, is this the X Factor? This is the X Factor, yeah. And it was just one of those, you know, when the kids were little, you go through stages and, you know, it was gladiators or it was, you know, all this sort of thing.

And that was just one of those shows that we used to watch. Yeah. Huge shows. Everybody of those shows that we used to watch. Yeah. Huge shows. Everybody watching those shows. And he just had something. And I don't, I can't even remember what thought went through my head and I just thought, I'll just send off. You know, there's hundreds of thousands of people must apply.

And how old was Harry at that time then uh he was just 16 so little isn't it i mean actually you know look when how old were you when you left school you said you left school and then got a job 16 yeah so you know this is a familiar world in terms of like knowing yourself, having a little bit of self-awareness, but it's still little. And you're still, you know, the one making all the decisions in a legal sense. Yeah. So do you sometimes think back to that bit and think, what would have happened if I hadn't filled in the form? Yeah.

Well, I remember saying to him, because he used to work in a bakery after school and at the weekends. And I remember him coming home and telling me that somebody, he'd been in the back kitchen or something, and he was obviously singing. And somebody, one of the customers or somebody had been in and commented on it and said something about he should go to this local talent show or something I can't remember the details and he'd come home and he

told me about that and he was like no I don't I don't want to do that and I was like right okay And then very shortly after that, the letter came through. So I basically said to him, OK, I've got you this audition, but it's totally up to you. If you don't want to do it, that's fine. But I've just got it just in case. And I think he ummed and ahed for a little bit, but not for a great amount of time. You haven't really got anything to lose, have you, at that stage as well? No. And then, yeah, and then we went for it. So at that time, Gemma was still at home or was this when she'd moved to London?

Gemma was in Sheffield then. She was at university. Okay. So, yeah, so just to backtrack, she left to go to university at the start of the term, which will have been the September, October. So then that time, it was then just him and I. Now, they'd always been very close. The three of us were always very close.

And so her going was quite a shock to the system, really. Yeah, I was going to ask how you found that. And it's strange because I remember her saying to me before she was going, my friends are saying their mums have all gone weird about them leaving, about them going. And I said, well, have I gone weird? And she's like, no. But I think I went into practical mode.

So everything was practical. I was getting everything ready. I was making sure we had everything, being ultra practical. So that was done. We went, took her, left her again. I was fine, a few tears, but not too bad. Got home that night, sat there watching the telly. All of a sudden, this incredible wave of what I can only describe as a kind of grief just came over me, and I just was in floods of tears. And it just hit me then. And then I was like that for a week.

Just I felt bereft yeah it's a weird feeling isn't it and it was so bad it's a longing for something but you know you just have to pack it up because it's not yeah it's a side to deal with for yourself I thought I thought I was doing so well and then it you know you can't help it you can't stop it um and you can mitigate as much as you like but it'll get you in the end yeah and it did it it got me um and actually because they'd been so close it affected him as well yeah um changes the dynamic yeah absolutely big change in the house changed the dynamic massively so it was just us two and we became even closer which was lovely so how long did you have between Gemma leaving and then the audition then um his first audition was in April. Oh, so, yeah, we're talking... So not very long. Not very long at all. Not very long. Yes.

And then it sort of just sort of started from there. And just spun. Yes. I saw this lovely quote, actually, from Gemma, which I thought was really beautiful. And I don't know why, but I found it quite, like, sort of moving, because she said that when Harry was off doing his rounds in the arena, she would stay close because she thought,

I want to be there to look after him when it doesn't work out. Yeah. And that just never happened. And then their childhood became his origin story. I thought, I think the thing about it that I found really moving was the idea of like your shared childhood, and you normally don't have such a sort of um direct kind of like end of a chapter where something else takes over yeah you know they might go to uni come back for

a bit float around make decisions or you know it can be a bit more amorphous but with this it was just like a definite yeah and i think it's one thing to put your child into a situation where you know that you're trying to keep it like everything regular on the outside. This is a unique thing. Just go for it. Don't worry about it too much. But really, you're probably as a mum thinking, this is how I'm going to scoop him up when he comes home from this.

Yeah, absolutely. That's the the dynamic that's what we do we're thinking you know at some point I'm going to have to cushion this yeah but I don't know how well we're equipped to deal with actually things just working out like as humans it's well maybe British people I don't know it's not really like a massive part of our dialogue and it's not really a massive part of our culture to know how to deal with success. No. So for you, you've got to deal as well with your own emotions. I'm sort of picturing how I would be feeling.

Yeah. If my kids are off and one of them is doing a thing that is relatable, the other parents can talk about it. Gemma can talk to her friends about how you're feeling about it but when you've got to navigate something new who are your people that kind of can talk to you and make you feel when you're feeling a bit wobbly is it the other mums and dads in the in the group is it I mean yeah there were there there were a bit there were a bit, there was a bit of that. But even then, everybody dealt with things differently.

And, you know, we were, I think I, it was probably at that point that I, you start to become a little bit insular. Yeah. That makes sense. And, you know, I am, and I am now, I mean, obviously it's been a few years now, but I'm quite guarded, I suppose. Yeah, and that comes with the experience as well of people suddenly, you're in a room you didn't know you were going going to enter into yeah yeah and it's um you know so I do have I have a group of close friends

um and then I have you know a couple of friends that are like sisters. That's the best. And those are the people you need, the ones that you can talk openly with, you know, talk through stuff. Yeah. Because things, I mean, you'll know, things go on that people don't understand or wouldn't understand. Yeah, definitely. And you just sort of, I'm not going to say it becomes normal for me because obviously it isn't.

for me because obviously it isn't I'm I'm you know removed from the situation to a degree but it still has an effect on me that's huge and also the thing that I think is specific is one thing to see your children you know turning into adults dealing with all the stuff that goes along with that and and how they cope with you know profile success fame all the stuff that goes concentric but I think what's what I'm really conscious of for you and thinking about it with my my second son is about to turn 15 I'm picturing if this is me a year from now and everything starts ramping and you're still actually very much their person actually you know they're still little I know kids can be very resilient and some are very precocious in terms of how they handle new situations and certainly when I was 16 I thought I thought I had the answers to absolutely everything I felt very sorted.

I wish I did when I was 16 I had the answer to nothing I think that for me it was like the flip I kind of was like yeah and then I got to 20 and I was like oh no I didn't know anything I had a good had about sort of three or four year run yeah and then not since then I must admit there are times when I I sort of look, not look back, but I think now if my mum was still around, as unfortunately she passed away in 2000, you know, so much has happened. There are lots of things I would like to have shared with her more.

I would like to have shared with her more. But, and I think I have struggled over the last few years just trying to get my head round parenting adults. Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. It's been quite eye-opening for me to try and understand how I feel about them being adults, because they're still my babies, and it's really hard to get your head around. I have to say, it's really hard. With your children being children and struggling to see them as adults one of the biggest markers I would imagine is when they do sort of the significant milestones which don't happen in the same way they used to I don't think

but now that you've recently had one of your children become a parent well firstly congratulations thank you that must just make you beam yes it does and what's it like to see your daughter become a mum I'd imagine it's very moving actually it is incredibly moving I I remember reading somewhere and it's all my friends my friends who have got grandchildren have said, oh, you'll love them more than your children. And I thought, no, I don't know whether I will love them more than my children. And I read something that somebody wrote, and she said, it's like loving your children twice. And I thought, that's exactly it that's pretty magical so I love my children but I'm and I'm also loving watching her loving her it's you know it's just

lovely yeah it's a very pure thing that isn't it yeah yeah that's very pure and how lovely that you have the closeness with her that means you get you're all part of the continuation of the story and it and it's it's quite nice you know when they'll they'll make she'll make comments about um you know about how much she loves her and all this and what she'd do anything for anything and i just just look at her and nod and I go, yes. It's like, now you understand. Now you understand what it's like. Yes, I think that's true. And I also think, I remember the first time I heard one of my kids with my eldest

when he had a really significant relationship in his mid-teens and I overheard him saying I love you to the person he was dating at the time and I felt this massive sense of pride that I could raise someone who felt capable of then passing on love yeah so with your daughter being able to pass that on to her daughter I think there's a lovely feeling of like giving someone that ability yeah to love actually it sounds like a really obvious thing but I just I felt like that's a great takeaway as a parent you kind of go that they can do that means that some they must be all right fundamentally themselves yeah definitely that's. It's really special and exciting. Yeah. So going back to what you said about parenting adults,

what do I need to know then about the bit when I get to this chapter when my kids are kind of approaching 30 and 30? Well, I think it's, I mean, obviously we were all there once and we all thought we knew it all. And, you know, basically parents know nothing because we've never done anything. We've never been anywhere. But I think I struggled a little bit with sort of wanting to keep them closer. And I don't mean geographically, because obviously that isn't.

But feeling like I needed to be, I don't want to say involved in everything, because that isn't what I mean. Sort of relevant to what's happening? Yes, relevant. Relevant is a very good word. Yes, relevant. Relevant is a very good word.

And luckily, my children are quite feeling savvy. So although I think at times they've struggled to understand where I'm coming from, they do get it. And, you know, at the end of the day, I am their friend, but I will always be their mum. And it doesn't matter, you know, what they say or what they think.

You're always going to be that person's mum doesn't matter how old they are I think I said on camera once um no matter how how old you become you will always be my baby and and that that's just it it doesn't matter they can have families of their own careers of their own you still you know you feel every you feel every success you feel every failure you feel every hurt and you just want to make it better and was there ever a point when everything's been because we can say this now now that you know your children are comfortably into that adulthood from my perspective yeah yeah not as a two children in their 30s oh my goodness don't reassure you they're not adults so So now we can see, you know,

that we're in a bit where everything is comfortable, but was there ever a bit at the beginning with Harry's career where you thought, oh my goodness, where does this lead us? Because it's such an unfamiliar landscape, isn't it, to deal with that? Yeah, very much so. I think that point will have been when the show

finished because at least when it was the show it was it was just the show right you know and then there was an end to that like we're doing this show that's great you go as far as you go see what happens and then no idea what's going to happen after that and and and then obviously it all went ballistic yeah um it makes I just think it makes you a member of a club that hasn't got like loads of members actually yeah no not that many no um and when and was music always part of your lives is that has that always Has that been a through thread as well? Yeah, I mean, I'm not musical at all, but we've always had music. My dad had a very eclectic taste in music, always had the vinyls.

And my brother now has taken that over and he has a massive, massive vinyl collection. over and he has you know a massive massive vinyl collection um he loves his music very eclectic tastes um so yeah he just I guess there was a bit in there my my grandma used to play the organ by ear apparently apparently organ difficult instrument to transport yeah yeah yeah no just thinking about all the layers really because i think it goes back to the thing i said about jemma's really with the origin story not every family thinks that but what i'm getting from you so much is that uh you've kept this sort of core of like what your the essence what your family is about and what matters to you really well preserved and I think the dangers I've seen with family when particularly when you know you've got one child in particular where that the the platform because what the the level that both your children are successful but the level of fame that Harry is experiencing is a very,

it's like, that's like a real, like, you know, if you've got a pyramid, it's like right at the top. And I think sometimes when, and I think, again, I always look at, it already leads back to my mum's wisdom, but she said problems can happen when family members and friends become fans. And you don't want, being a fan is not great. And I know for you, you probably have people say to you all the time oh you must be so proud but actually I'm again tell me if I'm putting words

in your mouth but I would imagine the pride is not about what's going on in the public eye but just in how well your kids have coped with things their emotional ability to deal with things to talk to you about stuff if they've got around them yeah absolutely it's more about the the humans that they've become um obviously I'm proud of their achievements and that's that's great but take them away and they are still human beings and it's those people that I'm proud of. And proud seems such a tiny, tiny word. Yeah, it's not actually even the right word. It's like we need more language. Because when I've seen people I love doing something well,

pride isn't actually quite it it's more like a glow of seeing someone like doing the thing they can do so well yeah do you know what i mean like it's like an inner warmth yeah like a beam yeah and it's yeah pride is just not a big enough word really and i'm not articulate enough to find another one i don't think i found another i think because pride almost is a bit more like reflected back on you. It's all about like all puffed up. You can think of pride as a sort of puffed up feeling. I'm proud.

Look what I did. Yeah. But I think it's more like a sort of, what's the joy you feel of someone just sort of excelling or seeing them radiate? There's something about that I think yeah I don't know we'll have to figure that one out we need to make a new word we need to make a new word put it in your next book um so when you go along to watch one of Harry's shows what's it like for you

watching him perform are you able to just relax and think entertain me son yes come on entertain me um yes in the yeah in the most in the most part um and I then then at some point I find myself sort of standing there staring at him um I don't know is it is it adulation I don't know. I remember him when he was on the stage at school and I'd be sat there with tears streaming down my face, happy tears, and I'm either laughing or whatever. Just, I don't know, we've discussed this pride word. Just the feeling of, I don't know, we've discussed this pride word. It's just the feeling of, I don't know, warmth that kind of emanates from somewhere deep within and just fills you full of, gosh, I don't even know what the words are.

I guess as well, the more experience he's had in performing, the more relaxed he can be on stage, which makes you chill out about anticipating things because you can just see he's just got it. He's fine, thank you very much. Yeah. So then you can relax. He still amazes

me at times his uh his last concert in Italy he did a whole speech in Italian and wow I was just sort of stood there with my mouth open, really. And then I also find that I spend a lot of time looking at the crowd and looking at people's reactions. God, that must be pretty crazy. Yeah, and it's just lovely to see. And what about for the sort of Beatlemania aspect of the fans? Is that something that's ever been a... I don't know, a worry, that's not the right word,

but just I don't know how I'd navigate that. That can be tough. Yeah, because also a lot of those kids must be pretty young and then they've got their emotions all worked up and you're just... Yeah, I mean, there's a big generation thing. It's quite multi-generational. So it's quite nice to see parents there with their young children all dancing along and things like that. So that's really nice.

I read actually this thing the other day about, you know, if there's someone that you think you know really well because you've seen them on TV or read interviews or whatever. And then you actually, if you found yourself having coffee, maybe you always think, I bet I'd get on with that person. And then if you found yourself having coffee with them, you would know lots about them, but they wouldn't know anything about you. And that's called a parasocial relationship, apparently. Right, okay. called a parasocial relationship apparently right okay and I was thinking about that this morning I was coming home from school because I was thinking that must happen to you know the concentric circles must happen to lots of people in your your life sort of emanating with people

thinking they know lots about you or they're very familiar with you yeah and actually you've never met them before yeah that's quite that's a skill set you didn't know you were going to need to have for yourself no it's quite it's quite strange I've I mean I don't I don't have a lot of issues at all um but I have sort of got to the point now where I can recognize if somebody recognizes me when I'm just out and about. And I've kind of, my radar never used to be very good because I would, I never thought, you know. Why would you need that radar? I don't need that. Nobody cares if I'm doing my shopping or whatever.

But then it has improved slightly and I can feel if somebody's looking at me a certain way or what have you. So that's, it's very strange. It is. And I guess your instinct, it sounds like, was really there quite early on to just be quite guarded, to know who your people are is a good way of navigating. I mean, I'm always polite. But, yeah, and a lot of them are young girls that cry. Oh, yes.

And then, you know, sometimes I'll give them a hug. They'll be telling that story for years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact, there was a reel on YouTube about a girl I met in Ikea not long ago. And I was like, oh, my goodness. Wow. Everybody knows you get your tea lights. Yes, yes.

I've just been to buy a dining room table, didn't I? Oh, but I guess, you know, you've got such a good heart, you'll be able to handle these. Because it's a vulnerability there as well when they're like, oh, so keen, you know? Yes, absolutely. I'm very aware, you know know that they are of a certain age and you know yeah oh is there am i right did stevie nicks say that she was going to like be basically be like harry's like adopted mum yeah that's just that must be weird for you i've got a great picture of me and Stevie, actually,

in my cabinet at home. You're like, you can be on our Christmas card list, but you're not in your mum. Back off, Stevie. Back off, Stevie. Too right. But, yeah, no, she's lovely. And they, you know, the fact that they are such close friends

is absolutely incredible. Yeah. It's amazing. Stevie Nicks. I know, you know, the fact that they are such close friends is absolutely incredible. Yeah. It's amazing. Stevie Nicks. I know, I know. It's just, yeah. She can adopt me. I know.

She can adopt me as well. Just not Harry. Come on. We'll just all, I've skipped over a generation. What's going on? That's not fair. It's true. She missed me out.

Yeah. Yeah. Hello. Your book is beautiful, by the way. Thank you. Absolutely beautiful. Thank you. And it's a joy to read aloud to my children. Thank you.

And I love the way it has moments of rhyme in amongst it because it keeps the language playful. And I was saying to you before we started recording, when you read, I read stories to my little ones every night before bed and you really appreciate the books that have really taken into account what it's like as a parent to have to enter into that world no matter how you're feeling some parents aren't even that confident about reading aloud books their kids so whatever is a little helping hand and it's fun to read yeah you always say to your kids should we read

that one like you know yeah that you can do the steer of like, they're going to read that one again. So yeah, it's definitely part of our lexicon. It is. I mean, I always enjoyed reading to my kids, but I know it's not everybody's cup of tea and some people don't find it natural. Yeah, I understand that.

And I just, I do think that having a bit of rhyme in there helps the flow definitely and it you know it helps nice for your ears as well yeah I think it it helps people that aren't natural storytellers yeah and I think if that's where you want the playfulness is in children's books yeah to keep that bounce in it and that lightness I think it's lovely well I really appreciate we've been talking about I'm taking away so much stuff from you and thank you so much I think you know firstly I don't I've never met Gemma but I really love her podcast and I think she seems like such a wise curious grounded person and I think curiosity and in grown-ups is is this sort of like one of the essence to a happy

life actually if you can keep looking outside yes and I know she speaks to lots of different people from lots of different fields yeah I think that's that's such a you know great instinct for kind of keeping open I say this this like sway as opposed to myself because I also have conversations with people but I do think it's um it leads to a happy life but also you kind of get all this wisdom it's really handy I feel I feel I feel very um in awe of of of both of them really yeah no it's lovely and I've only met Harry I think very briefly uh we were in a crowded it was actually in a bar area and it was very crowded and I had a coat on and I took it off and I held it in my arms and he just tapped me and said would you like me to put your coat on the side and I thought what very well brought up young man but all of it is kudos to you and

because I think I knew I liked you already I you know met briefly before, but I don't think I'd quite gained your... I think you've got a lot of strength and I'm so impressed with you sort of taking on things that put you out of your comfort zone to just be able to show your kids the way. I mean, that's like... I think that kind of sums up what I hope I can bring to my kids as well.

I think that's like a really beautiful bit of mothering that goes on there. No matter what, regardless of where they end up, I just mean in terms of how you'd hope to kind of steer them, but also how mothering can teach you things about yourself and make you do things that you think will be better for you too. And, you know, you've obviously taken those tools throughout your life as well, you know, eating in the restaurant, these things,

when you think, right, this is not what I feel like doing, but I think it will, how bad can it be? Yes. You know, what's the worst that can happen? I've come to talk to you. Yeah. How bad can it be? You've got over the threshold.

Yeah. And, yeah, it's given me a lot of things to think about, but really nice things. Oh, my God, I didn't even ask you about the wing walking. Can I just ask you about that really quickly? Of course, yeah. So I know you did wing walking to raise money and awareness for Parkinson's,

and sadly that's how you lost your dad, and I'm so sorry to hear that. Thank you. Again, a very cruel experience for everyone involved, but I can't believe to hear that. Thank you. Again, a very cruel experience. It is very cruel. For everyone involved. But I can't believe you wing walked. I've always wanted to do that. Would you recommend it?

Absolutely. It was amazing. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Okay. So would I. Let's do it. Let's wing walk for something. In fact, it's a flimmin' shame, really,

because one of the guys that I know, that I met through Parkinson's, who has Parkinson's, and he had it, he has, he's, I don't know, he's in early 50s now, Matt, his name is. And he was diagnosed with Parkinson's when he was seven. Seven? Yeah, and I didn't even know that was a thing. No, my mouth is open, I didn even know that was a thing. No, my mouth is open.

I didn't know that was a thing either. So he's been living with it, and he is an amazing guy. So he did the wing walk at the same time, and he messaged me the other day because apparently it's the aerodrome where we did it. It's their 40th anniversary this year or something and they're doing a special um like double wing seat or something oh so you can have one person sat on one end and one person sat on the other end and he's like should we do this this? And I was like, absolutely.

And then I read the small print and both of us are far too heavy because they've got weight limits. And I said, I'm sorry, but not in the best will in the world, I'm never going to lose like a stone. I'm sorry. Also, you don't want to play fast and loose

with small print and aviation. No, no, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Just do it, it'll be fine.. No, no, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Just do it, it'll be fine. Yeah. But yes, absolutely. Oh, if you get the chance, do it. I will.

I'd like to, genuinely. I've wanted to do that for a while. Yeah, you should do it. In fact, because I've done it once, if I do it again, I can now do a loop-the-loop. Oh, that's so cool. All right, I'll do my first one do your first one then we'll loop the loop i'll ask them to uh i need to get in touch with them ask them to reinforce some of the

the wings and then i can do the city one just yeah yeah we'll find the appropriate plane i might need a boeing 747 or something that may be don't loop the loop on that although i would sponsor you it might might take my weight on the wing though that's quite the image what's that out the window yeah is it a bird is it a pain steady on loop the loop How lovely is Anne? Also, I was very moved by her words about her husband, Robin, who sadly died in 2017. It really, I suppose, it resonated with me

because it made me think of my own mum, who we are now four years since my lovely stepdad John died. So, yes, I recognise that grief. Anyway, thank you so much to Anne. And congratulations, Gemma, on your baby. And, yeah, what a lovely thing. All good. What else am I going to do with my day? Thank you for listening to another episode.

We're actually nearing the end of this series. I've got another couple and then that's it. Next week, I'm going to America for my first ever tour. So when I speak to you next week, I will be somewhere there. I wonder where I'll be. Hang on, what day of the week is it now? It is Thursday. So next week, I'll be in San Francisco that's actually really exciting I've never been um and I mean this in the most positive way possible if nothing more happens than my American tour then I get to do these dates um I will be very very very happy with that because I never thought I'd get the opportunity to play any gigs in America so this is a very happy thing and it has very much come out of what has happened

with Murder and Dance Floor and Salt Burn and the success that it had. Because there are some things of the year that are happening regardless. Next month, I'm supporting Nile Rodgers and Chic on tour. That was already in the diary. But the American dates are a direct result of the fact that Murder suddenly became

a bit of a hit in America when it had never been before. Still think that's such a crazy thing to get your head around. But yeah, I'm starting off in San Francisco. So this time next week, I'll be having my first show. Oh, I hope it goes all right. I have to pack. I don't know what I'm going to take. I'm going to try and do the whole thing hand luggage only.

I'm away for 11 days and I've got eight shows. Is it possible? Okay, that's good. You said yes. I got that. I got the telepathic yes you can do it you can travel hand luggage only for 10 days with eight gigs sure you can um and yeah I've got a couple more oh that sound in the background is Richard with a grass seed distributor

you know you'll be editing this in a minute. I think that's really funny. Yes, I've got two more for you. And I'm already recording the next series. Already getting very excited about my guests. Lots of good stuff coming your way. Thank you in the meantime to Anne for coming to speak to me, for Claire for producing the podcast, for Richard for editing it,

to Richard for making that weird noise with the grassy distributor in the background, and to Ella May for my beautiful artwork. But most importantly to you for lending me ears, because if it wasn't for you, I'd just be a woman talking on my own in the ether. Oh, not on my own. I've got those people.

All right, I'll see you next week. Wish me luck with the packing. Bye. What's not working? The speaker, it's not on. There's no music playing. Should we get some music on? No, the music isn't on. Oh, should we put it in Bye. What's not working? The speaker. It's because it's not on. There's no music playing. Shall we get some music on? No, the music is on.

Oh, shall we put it in the... What song is it? Let me come. Come on, let's go and put the music on. Let's have a dance. No, look. Come on, then. Thank you.