Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 44: Helen Thorn

Episode Date: October 11, 2021

Helen Thorn is one half of the wonderful comedy duo Scummy Mummies whose stage show and podcast explores all the dirty, grimy, embarassing stuff you never thought was part of being a mum - till you become a mum. She's just written a book called Get Divorced Be Happy, charting the year she split from her ex, which happened to start 3 weeks before lockdown. She told me how difficult it was going through this at the very time we suddenly weren't allowed hugs. But she unexpectedly loves being a single parent to her son and daughter - and is now in fact the happiest she has ever been. By the way, Helen asked if she could swear before we started recording and I said yes - so she does! And she does it well! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to spinning plates. Hello. Can you hear the birds? Can you hear that?

They've kind of gone a bit quiet actually. I thought that'd be a really nice gentle start to this week's podcast. I'm on an unexpectedly beautiful walk home. Just dropped one of the kids at something and it's Saturday and it's really gorgeous. It's blue sky and sunshine the day started dramatically misty it's kind of like Victorian England misty and now it's clear to this gorgeous gorgeous day and I have had very busy week because my book which is called spinning plates because it was inspired by this podcast hold on people um it uh yeah the book came out this week that's quite exciting so it's felt quite different for me i've actually been to a couple of book festivals this week i know it's quite grown up isn't it and been talking to people about what's written inside the pages and luckily

people are kind of getting the fact that um even though I've written about some well I've written about everything really good bad and ugly so there's some dark bits in there but the book starts and ends with a happy ending and that where I'm at now is good and I talk about a whole lot of other stuff the one word that keeps coming back when people talk to me about it is good and I talk about a whole lot of other stuff the one word that keeps coming back when people talk to me about it is it's very honest I think that's always been a little bit of a problem of mine I'm not very good at lying but anyway it's honest but hopefully I'll make you laugh as well and it's been very exciting to bring a book out I've really enjoyed it so I've been doing lots of promotion for that.

But I've also been calling the podcast because that's my baby and I love it. So this week's guest is a really lovely woman who I first met doing her podcast. So Helen Thorne is one half of Scummy Mummies and they have their own podcast. They're actually one of the original podcasts that came out. It's called Mummy's Podcast. And, yeah, I met them when they came round to mine to talk. That's Helen and Ellie, our collaborator. And I really, really liked them both. And then Helen, who I follow on Instagram, was speaking a lot about her experience of going through a divorce and then

published her own book. It's all the rage guys called Get Divorced, Be Happy. And so that's broadly speaking what we spoke about, but also lots of other stuff as well. Cause you know me. Uh, yeah. So I know that her book has already helped other friends of mine going through a similar process. And I would credit that book as being honest as well and I mean it as a compliment which is hopefully what people mean when they say it to me. So yeah enjoy our ramblings and I'll see you on the other side. Bye. So how are you, Helen? I'm okay. Wow. Well, where do I start? Like today or just generally, holistically?

You know what? I'm going to say however you interpret that question. I am feeling the happiest I've ever been. I'm a really, I feel like a very jolly person, even though, yeah, I'm, you know, all the things that are about to happen, all the things that have happened. Yeah, I'm in a good place today and just generally. So, yeah. Oh, well, that answer doesn't actually surprise me because I feel like that is sort of radiating off you these days. So we first met, I'm thinking it might be something like two and a half years ago.

Yeah, Mickey was a teeny, teeny baby. We sat in this lounge, in fact. We did, exactly. And he was very small. Yeah, I think he was maybe only a few weeks, actually, like six weeks or something. two and a half years ago yeah mickey was a teeny teeny baby we sat in this lounge in fact and he was he was very small yeah i think he was maybe only a few few weeks actually like something um and uh so obviously i've been following you through you know instant all that and messaging you occasionally and yeah i was um i was actually saying to claire this morning before we met up today i was just like she just you look like you're sort of really radiant and really happy and glowing but also there's just so much positivity radiating out of what you're posting

and and how you feel about yourself it's actually really uh it's probably the most sort of you know people talk a lot on Instagram about sort of body positivity and stuff but actually I can really see it with your posts without it being a sort of hashtag thing, if you know what I mean. Yeah, I don't usually hashtag. I used to talk about body positivity when I started. So I've got like the Scummy Mummies account, which obviously I have with Ellie,

and then like Helen Wears a Size 18. And in the beginning, it was all about body positivity. And then I thought, no, that's all implied. If I'm sort of talking well about my body or body acceptance, body neutrality, all that sort of talking well about my body or body acceptance, body neutrality, all that sort of thing. And I really enjoy the discussions that come out of the post as well about people who are at different stages in their, I guess,

journey of body acceptance and things like that. So, yeah, I think I've really enjoyed doing that. But it doesn't feel forced or it's just sort of how I've approached the world and my life and, and, and that, and has been a big kind of transformation in terms of how I feel about myself and my self-worth. Um, so yeah, so that's been great actually. And, and, and I like the community that I've, I've got who follow me, but also, um, Instagram has just become, I think out of the, off the back of COVID Instagram has just become, I think, out of the back of COVID and being locked up. I think people are really seeking out, you know, happy people and positivity

because it's just been so hard. I think that's really true, actually, because I would, a lot of what you say actually resonates with me just in the fact that I feel happier than I have before and I think some of it's getting older um and maybe about shifting your expectations of what happiness and where where you find joy in the day-to-day anyway and a lot of it is just about feeling a lot more resolved about the person you are and where you found yourself and the good people you have around you and you know if you're lucky enough like you and I to do something you love for a living as well these all really help but but really I think you can find it yeah just in that sort of sense of community in your day-to-day world rather than kind of looking outside yourself all the time to yeah find that and I think that was one of the gifts of sort of lockdown I just remember I live opposite like a woods and I used to rarely go and always think

you know on days out I've got to go out to London or do a thing or spend money or whatever. But just being able just to go to the woods across the road every single day and going, oh, I love that tree. Oh, look, there's a bird's nest. Look, there's the eggs, there's the birds coming. Like all those really simple things really kind of peeled back life in a way. And I think, yeah, those small joys really sort of became emphasised. And even like going to the supermarket every day with my son and daughter, like we made the sort of things that we could do into much bigger than they were. But in a way, I kind of, I really loved that. And I love that my son once turned to us and said, oh, mummy, Sainsbury's is our happy place. I was like, yes, it is. Yes, it is. He sounds like my kind of kid.

Yeah, yeah, chocolate bourbons, mm-mm. Yeah, so, yeah, I really, I think that's it. And it's not to make light of what happened in the last 18 months, but also that you're allowed to find some joy amongst it all as well. Yes, I think so. And as you were saying about peeling back, you know, layers, I couldn't help but my eyes be drawn to your amazing earrings, which are actually a banana mid-unpeel.

Yes. I know, I was thinking, because I'm in a sort of like giant denim boiler suit, and I thought, I need some colour. And I thought, I think Sophie will appreciate some glitter banana-peeled earrings. And you just had your book come out. Yeah, yeah. So amongst the lockdown um about three weeks before the lockdown happened um i discovered my husband and partner of 22 years was having an

affair and so i yeah so my lockdown was quite different uh in that i was dealing with grief and betrayal and heartbreak uh and didn't have anyone to hold or hug for three months. And then I went through, yeah, basically a massive trauma. And then about three months into it, when we could sort of, Ellie and I bubbled up, I did a podcast with Ellie on the Scummy Mummies podcast and we talked about me becoming single. Not really sort of revealing any of the details of why. And I just started talking openly about becoming a single parent because Ellie and I have been doing this for eight years and our paths have been very similar. We've both got two kids. We live around the corner from each other.

We're both married for a similar amount of time. And then suddenly my story and my life became quite different. And I think that's been a real strength for what we do because we're talking to a broader audience. But also I feel like I can use my platform to kind of enlighten people about what it's like to be a single parent. And then, yeah, and then a few months after that podcast came out, Penguin approached me and said, can you write a book about being a single mum and a single woman in her 40s? Because we like that you're speaking about it so positively. And so, yeah, and that's how Get Divorced, Be Happy happened. a single woman in her 40s because we like that you're speaking about it so positively. And so, yeah, and that's how Get Divorced, Be Happy happened. And so I had to write this 80,000-word book in about three, four months. And it was nuts. And it was during this-

Which is phenomenal achievement, by the way. That's not very long to write. A mad, mad thing to do. But in a way, I wrote the book, it's a sort of basically a journey of the first year after separation. And it's raw, and it's angry, and it's sad, but it is a strangely uplifting book, because it is, it does have a happy ending. And it's not the girl gets the boy, but it's the girl gets rid of the boy. And I think I really loved writing it. I mean, I sat at my kitchen table and sobbed through a lot of it. But I interviewed over sort of 40 experts and different women who had gone through what I had gone through at different stages.

So for me, it was just an amazing kind of therapeutic process of really, really getting to the nut of the sadness and the rage and the hurt, but also really seeing what I had which was beautiful female friendships an amazing comedy partner and wife in Ellie and also realising where my self-worth had lay um in that being a wife and wanting to be someone else's someone and really I didn't need that and and so spoiler alert is is basically I found more happiness not being married than I did being married. So I think that was really good. And yeah, the book came out in July and the response has been really amazing, actually. And I feel very touched that I get these beautiful

messages from women around the world saying, thank you for telling your story. But also, I think a lot of married couples and married women have read the story and really got something from it because they may have got an insight of what their sister or friend has gone through, but also re-evaluating how they see themselves in a relationship. Yeah. Because I really wanted to unpick what that meant. So yeah, so it's been great. A lot of work, though. But now I can have a tiny little bit of rest and go back on tour. Yeah.

For a bit. I've got about a billion questions that have spun out from everything you just said. I'll sip my tea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, while you have some tea, firstly, I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I can't imagine how painful that must have been

and I also cannot begin to imagine what that must be like in the midst of a pandemic and a lockdown all of the heaviness in the news I mean I know that when because we were all thrust into something together I wonder if that also affected people's ability to really engage what was happening with you because they've got they're like I'm really sorry to hear about you but all my kids are at home now and I don't know which way is up and you know we were all sort of chucked into this thing where our world shrunk, didn't they? So I suppose out of that, the friendships that you did have to call on

and rely on, those friendships must be fortified to the max now. Yeah, yeah. It does feel like we've gone through some kind of war together or something kind of big. And also when I think you go through a trauma or something really sad, it also allows other friends and people close to you to open up about their difficult times. And it's really interesting like talking about divorce

and I didn't know some of my friends' parents were divorced or that their dads had affairs and things like that. And when they've shared something and I've shared something, it just really solidifies that friendship. And it's one of those things that I know culturally in Britain and also in Australia, we're really low to get really sad or really expose our sort of vulnerability. But I think there's such strength in it as well.

And I think as soon as you make that first step going, I'm a bit broken, and then they go, yeah, I'm a bit broken as well. It's a really beautiful thing. And I think, yeah, I was really fortunate that I had Ellie, even though we couldn't touch each other or see each other, just knowing that she was there at the end of the phone call. But I heard a lot of lasagnas, like, dropped on the front doorstep. You know, the doorbell would ring and then friends would just, like,

bolt to, you know, the front gate and we'd sort of wave. But the absence of touch was a really massive thing. Like not, not having those sort of deep embraces when you're feeling sad is strange. And, you know, we know what it's like to be held by our children or, you know, slapped in the face in the morning, that kind of, that kind of sense of touch. But I think that's what I found very difficult but in a way I had to sink very deeply into the sad and the grief in a way that I it was uncomfortable because I'm quite a jolly happy and like to do positive you know I'm a people pleaser basically and so for me to say I'm not coping I'm sad this is this is really shit and I'm'm really, really sad. I think that was the hardest sort of thing to kind of confront because I couldn't, there was no way to, you know, glitter the turd.

Yeah, you can't avoid it, actually. No, you can't. You're quite alone with your thoughts, aren't you? Yeah, exactly right. So I had to learn how to be sad, learn how to get angry. And Ellie, my comedy partner, was really fucking excellent at rage. She's so good. She knows exactly what to say.

But, yeah, I had to try and do that myself. So I think that was really good. And it's a bit of a weird thing because for the first three months I wasn't really out. It's a bit like pregnancy. It's when you really need. It's when you're feeling the shittest and you're sort of feeling the most broken.

And I think when I was ready I could sort of come out and talk about it more publicly. But, yeah, no, it was a hard time but also I feel when I was ready, I could sort of come out and talk about it more publicly. But, yeah, no, it was a hard time, but also I feel like it was like heartbreak boot camp because it was really intense. I was going to say it's almost like an experiment of a way to deal with trauma. Yeah, lock her up, lock her away.

What we recommend is you're going to be totally devoid. And when we say devoid, we mean literally your friends will have to drop food on the doorstep and then wave at you from the gate. Yeah, yeah. And we're just going to see where that takes you. It's like a torture. We're just going to remove people. No, exactly, exactly.

But I wonder what role that played in actually being able to write the book in this way. And it's a really well-written book. I really enjoy it. I love the way you write. And I love the fact that there's all the layers there because it's a really well-written book. I really enjoy it. I love the way you write. And I love the fact that there's all the layers there because it's very honest. And as you say, there is a lot of rawness and humour and objectivity about how things made you feel.

But it's also a sort of hand in the dock for people going through something similar because there's lots of advice in there and experts and other people who've gone through similar things. So did you already know all the people you wanted to speak to? No, I sort of knew half of the people. I sort of mapped out the chapters. It was sort of like, you know, what marriage means and then also sort of unpacking about the early stages of my marriage and why I sort of was so in

love with being a wife. So those sort of early things. But, yeah, it was really nice to talk to friends about it. But then I wanted, I got like a top barrister, top family lawyer, someone to talk about finances. And even though they're really, really fucking unsexy topics, they're the biggest fears. And so many friends I know or women I've spoken to say, oh, I just can't get divorced. Think of the admin.

I'm scared of the courts. I'm scared of lawyers. I don't know how to do the finances. And I wanted to be really, really honest about the fact that my ex had always said, don't worry, I'll look after you. And so I didn't have a pension. I didn't know about money and all that sort of stuff. So I wanted the book to feel like, yeah, someone holding your hand going through it. Because I know so many women go, oh, look, I'll just wait until the kids are out of school and then I don't have to worry about it. But one of the things I really appreciated,

there's a feminist called Clementine Ford from Australia who wrote for the book. And she said, you know, we want everything, the best for our children, like the best state schools and food and clothes and all that sort of stuff. But why don't we want the best mum? And the best mum is a happy mum. And so many so many women say or we should stay together for the kids but I just loved

um what she says in the book about you know would you want your son behaving like your husband does or would your daughter want to be in a relationship like you are you're setting the example so yeah I really liked there's some really good meaty sort of nuggets of advice. And it's like sitting in a room with some really kick-ass women, which I was very privileged because I, you know, my role as a comedian and a podcaster, I can just ring up someone and say, oh, can you help me write this book for Penguin?

And so I thought, well, what I needed, I was very lucky that I got lots of advice and I wanted to give that to other women going through it because it's lonely yeah this is really fucking lonely well that's what makes me think of that it takes a village kind of a ethos that we have for raising a child which obviously is a big deal in anyone's life but actually these are all big deals these are all big significant things that we you know experiences that we can have and i know you're saying that when you know you read the book it might be it might be even if you're a married person you might read it and get an insight into your girlfriend

who's going through something or maybe your parents but actually for me it also made me think about when I was little and particularly the chapter where you spoke about telling your kids and you spoke to the brilliant Philippa Perry who's just sensible, smart concise

Why is she in charge of the country? Yeah, that makes total sense. Thank you. Thank you for clarifying. And, you know, she speaks a lot about, it sounds like you and your ex-husband were really amazing about how to actually talk to your kids. Yeah. And that's incredible credit to you for being able to,

you know, because rage is a big part of it, I know, but being able to sort of put that just outside of the framework when you're talking to your kids. But especially in lockdown, that must be really quite testing, I'd imagine. Yeah. Yeah, she spoke about, you know, how you never slag off the other partner

because that's half your kids. And particularly resonant if you're hearing your mum being slagged off and you're the daughter because you feel like, well, that might be where I'm headed, you know, and it's ditto for fathers and sons. And I just thought, I thought, oh, I wish I'd been able to show my parents. Guys, guys, guys.

40 years ago. Yeah, exactly. Because they didn't do a bad job, my folks, but I definitely think there were bits where, yeah, you can sometimes as the child between it, you can be encouraged to sort of play the game a little bit and be the people pleaser from one parent to the other.

Yeah, definitely. And you hear, you know, sometimes what the other one's done wrong or how it could have been played better with the other one and then you end up kind of just wanting to sort of, trying to almost conduct it like a little tiny, you know, conductor in the middle of this like wonky orchestra of like, okay, I'll get this bit, you know, to reach a crescendo on this side and then I can quickly go off to that side and that'll be much quieter and yeah it's just a strange dynamic I mean your kids have

obviously got each other in it as well which is also a really yeah significant thing but similarly that that they're that bit older so some of the questions they ask and the explanations they need might be a little bit more sophisticated than if they'd been smaller. But, yeah, it sounded like by the time you sat them down, you actually were both speaking from the same dialogue sheets for you and your ex, which is really impressive. Yeah, I wanted to do... I don't think there's a perfect way to do it

because it's a really big thing to do. But I liked what Philippa said. She said, you don't just tell them once. That is an ongoing conversation. And I think, you know, children go through grief and shock like you do. Like I had to, you know, my ex-husband and I weren't really fighting or things went significantly wrong in the eyes of, well, me and the children. It was all a very big shock.

And for them to be sat down around the kitchen table with a big bottle of big bowl of Skittles and said, Oh, you know, daddy's moving out now. We're really sorry. They were really quite shocked. And so and then I said, Oh, and you're getting a kitten. And my ex is allergic to cats. So that was a really, we got to cats. I love cats so much now. But, yeah, so it was such a big change. But, you know, in 10 days' time and then in two months later, I just remember my son going, so Dad's moving back soon? And so I was like, no, darling, he's not.

This is life and it is tricky but we're going to make the best of it and, you know, we're going to have our ups and downs but we'll try our best and we're a new family of three. So I think that was really important. But I just love being a single parent. I was really, I think there's something in me that I was really afraid of divorce, I was afraid of being alone and now I can't think of it any other way. That's extraordinary, isn't it?

Yeah. I mean, if you could listen to yourself saying that now. Oh, my God. I don't hate that bitch. um but yeah so I think yeah I think all the things that I was most afraid of are the things that I've most loved wow that's amazing actually what an amazing outcome and just yeah so different from what you might have imagined how how is your relationship with your children how does it change when you find yourself in that situation? I think I was a bit sort of hesitant because it was such a major shift

and the fact that they went from, you know, going to school and then homeschooled and then all these massive sort of transitions. And so that was really great. But in a way, there was something quite beautiful about having those three months just together alone. I was on tap. If they needed a hug, if we just needed to go, oh, fuck, homeschool today, we're just going to watch RuPaul's Drag Race

and eat crisps, then that was okay. So I think because my life, I'm usually on tour, like I'm away like two or three nights a week doing gigs. And, God, if we'd got separated then, I just, I think that would have been really hard on them. And just to have their mum with them all the time, I think was really lovely. So the arrangement at the moment is I have them five days a week.

So I just felt, you know, if there were days we just had to be in our pyjamas and be a bit sad, then that was okay. So I think there was some real benefits for that. But yeah, it's great that they speak about it very openly. I know some people don't want their children to talk about the divorce. But I'm from the get-go. I've said, no, this is who we are now.

We can be really proud of this new family. Yeah. And I think that's great. And my kids are very, very sort of casual about it. And we were out for lunch the other day and my son turned to his friend and he said, has your dad done any adultery? I was like, I don't think he has. And the mum was there.

She's like, well, I hope not. I said, his 10-year-old son, yeah, yeah, yeah. Did he cheat on you? No. Okay, cool. Very relaxed about these chats. But anyway, yeah, but I think that's good and I think the stigma of single parent is starting to change.

I would agree. The head tilt is going, you know. There's still that thing. But, you know, I talk to older women who've gone through it and they said, oh, God, it was really hard. They wouldn't get invited to dinner parties because otherwise we're afraid that they were going to jump their husbands.

You're like, oh, as if, I've had a husband. I don't want any more, especially not one already attached. So I think there's some real stereotypes that are starting to be broken down. Oh yeah, I would definitely agree with that. And I think also talking about what you're saying about grief and sadness, I think our relationship with how we deal with those is

really different as well generationally because yeah that whole kind of button up thing is just not not it anymore and that the ability to just let the sad be if that's that's the thing you're doing and you know if you're going we now know if you're going through a traumatic thing it's okay to just take your foot off the gas and just stop and just absorb that yeah and actually i think you know the significance of the lockdown and meaning you're not touring is a really big deal as well because then yeah you could just be there for them and actually it makes you think well if it hadn't been the lockdown then everything would have had to take on a different shape yeah and maybe been a lot more complicated and a lot more drawn out yeah

um so whilst it was probably a crash course you didn't, wouldn't have chosen, you know, you can still see that there's things that come out of it that are more positive because of that. Yeah, definitely. And hearing you talk about touring makes me think, what is it like to be a working comedian on the circuit when you are raising a family? What was happening when you had your first baby? Were you already in comedy then? No, I took a bit of time out from comedy because I moved over to the UK in 2006 and I was doing comedy almost full time back then. And then I came over here and, you know, I did write about this in the book.

Like we came over from my ex-husband's career and I just thought, oh, look, it's his turn to shine. I did a bit of TV in Australia and stuff. And I just sort of gave up on comedy. And then it wasn't until I had my second child, my son, I was up in the middle of the night breastfeeding him. And I just thought, why did I give up what I loved? I was really good at stand up. And so yeah, and then I booked a gig. And a couple of weeks later, I did this shitty gig in Deptford in a shipping container. And that's when I met Ellie.

Oh, wow, the first gig? Yeah, my first gig back after having children and it was this sort of light bulb moment in that we literally fell in love with each other on the stage. I was doing a shitty five minute set and she was doing an amazing five minute set and I just thought she was the funniest most amazing person I've ever met and we went backstage afterwards and we're having a beer and I was like, oh I live in Forest Hill and she's like, I live in Forest Hill. It's like, I've ever met. And we went backstage afterwards and we're having a beer and I was like, oh, I live in Forest Hill. She's like, I live in Forest Hill.

I was like, I've got an 18-month-old baby. Oh, so do I. And then we found out that our sons were born 11 days apart by the same midwife. Oh, I love that kind of stuff. Yeah, and it was just this sort of, but it was a weird moment in which I chose to do something I loved that wasn't about the kids, it wasn't about being a wife.

And then, you know, the kind of universe gave me Ellie Gibson which was this amazing kind of gift and that changed my life but I made that decision just for me yeah but yeah yeah in the beginning when when we were starting to do more touring and and Hugo was still quite little it was really hard because they really need you especially at night time time. But now they're like, yeah, see you, Mum. You know, bring us back some Percy Pigs. Exactly. Is that on your rider? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Smart.

Yeah. Yeah, because so in the bit when you first had, when you'd come over with your husband and you were having your first baby, were you working at all then? Did you just take off comedy and everything else? Yeah, so I'd studied history of art, so I was actually working at the Courtauld and then I worked for Arts Council England, so I worked in sort of art, so I was actually working at the Courtauld and then I worked for Arts Council England, so I worked in sort of my backgrounds in contemporary art.

So I was always working in that kind of field and then just made the leap when Scummy Mummy's kind of once we got the podcast out, things kind of took off. It was a while until we made some money but, yeah, we just started to tour and then, yeah, now I do that full time. But it's now good that we've got to a point where we can actually choose when we do gigs and things like that, like the ball's in our court now. Yeah, how nice.

Which is so much nicer. So we don't do gigs during the school holidays because, frankly, everyone's on holiday anyway. Yeah, so that's been really good. And, yeah, and it's nice to sort of – it's a weird feeling that we sat around a kitchen table one day and said, you know, let's do a podcast and then now this is our life., you know, let's do a podcast. And then now this is our life.

So, yeah, it's great. Because you were saying to me earlier that you've done over 200 episodes. Yeah. So you're like veterans in the podcast world. Yeah, we basically created podcasting. 2013 we started our podcast. Well, that would be back in the day before everybody had a podcast. Yeah, that's it, that's it. It was quite niche.

It was, how do I listen to a podcast people would say um but yeah we have put out a podcast uh every fortnight without fail even through ellie having a premature baby she was i remember her pumping double pumping breast milk to take to the hospital to her premature baby and editing the podcast at the same time oh wow she's so fucking amazing um yeah so we yeah that has gone out through yeah all sorts of things through yeah all sorts of traumas and life life dramas but it's been such a great a great thing to do and the podcast is sort of like the base of everything we do and then yeah we've written a book together and all sorts of things and and ellie's an amazing video games journalist so So it's really nice. I've got my book and doing work in sort of single parenting sort of stuff

and then she's doing her video game stuff as well. So you've still got a life outside of your relationship. Yeah, that's right. You get on with your own things. We dabble. It's polyamorous. We're very open, yeah, but non-monogamous. Yeah, so it's good.

And, yeah, I love, you know, this year we did the main stage at Camp Bestival. You know, when we started off it was like 40 people in a tiny tent. Yeah. And just to build that with, like, your best mates, a really pretty nice feeling. No, that's incredible. And I wonder as well if those little, every incremental step towards

actually, you know, being able to be a bit selfish with the things that make you happy and things outside of certainly with, you know, your husband's work at the time and your your marriage actually sort of maybe gave you like a little backpack ready for you know what was lying ahead really so that you've actually got a lot of things that are actually already just yours yeah your forum and your voice yeah and how to contextualize things and people community out there who are listening that's actually a really powerful thing isn't it yeah to have all those people out there for you because they obviously those people who've been listening since yeah 2013 but like they they know you inside out from that way you know yeah that's

right and yeah it does feel like I've got a an army of women behind me and I do feel incredibly privileged because of that and like every time I posted about fuck, you know, all the jobs, I really loved it. A follower once said, no, Helen, you're not a single parent, you're a double parent. And I thought, that's fucking true. You know, you were doing twice the work. And there are times that, you know, 11 o'clock at night where I'm, you know, holding, you know, the tea and just about to dribble it on myself because I'm so tired. And I go, shit, PE, tomorrow, go, you know, and so washing all that sort of stuff. And it's just about to dribble it on myself because I'm so tired and I go, shit, PE, tomorrow, go, you know, and so washing all that sort of stuff. And it's just down to you. But also, I like the way that my children see me now. There's nothing to hide. And I'm like, some days I go, look,

mummy is really tired. Let's all help do the housework. We're a team here. And yeah, so I think they see me, I guess, more flawed because I'm sometimes more stressed and juggling and all that sort of stuff. But also they see a resilience in me, which I think is really, really important and really, really positive for them. And, you know, when I have to fix things or do something technical or, you know, defrost the fucking freezer again, or defrost the fucking freezer again. They see all that sort of stuff and hear the swears. But, you know, I think that's really good.

And, you know, I think it's good for my son and I think it's good for my daughter as well. Yeah. Yeah, and we often have to cheer when I've, like, fixed the drawer. Like, look, look what Mummy can do. They're like, yay. No, I get that. And actually I think there was something, I can't remember who it was actually that said it in your book but they're saying that sometimes um when you're doing these

things on your own you were doing all these things before in the marriage but now you're just not also really resenting the fact that you're doing them actually that's quite liberating oh that was Sophie Hayward she wrote a fantastic quote in the book about yeah absolutely she said you know it made me think actually it was no it's a absolutely. She said, you know. It made me think, actually. No, it's a really brilliant quote. She said, you know, I got up, I fed the baby, went back to sleep, but I didn't have the resentment of expecting someone else to do it. Yeah.

You know, the dishes got washed by me, but there wasn't the rage of going, fuck, why didn't he do it? So it's sort of, it's really great. I thought that was a really strong quote. And I hope the book does shake people just a little bit about what their roles are. And I love the quote by Arabella Weir and she said, never put up with behaviour from a partner that you wouldn't put up

with from a best friend. And she uses this great illustration of going, if you're sitting down at the dinner table and your spouse partner says, oh, broccoli, why did you cook it like that? Or chardonnay, you know I had chardonnay. You would tell your friend to get out of your house. But why do we accept shit behaviour from the people we're supposed to be in love with?

And I think, God, ooh, ow, ow, yes, that's a really good meaty quote. So, yeah, but I want to say also like the book has got lots of like catastrophe and awkwardness and especially when I start to get happier and sort of try and navigate my life as a single woman and dating again. There's lots of lols in there. It's not just like, it's not all depressing. And I hope people read it who aren't just going through divorce as well because I love reading autobiographies. Me too. And I like the juice and the gossip going through divorce as well because um i i love reading

autobiographies and i like the juice and the gossip and the darkness as well yeah yeah no i mean i was telling like my husband this morning about the your hot tub um night out which followed i think a very late night out the night before yeah yeah yeah uh on a date and then going out with girlfriends and then you're trying to stay awake in the hot tub and kept splashing your face with water and I ended up with a terrible eye infection. Oh, just,

it looked like a whacked fanny, my eye. It was this puffy fanny eye for about two months. Because I remember when you were posting that I was thinking,

oh, poor girl, her eye's still bad. It went on for too long. And there were some experiments with hairdos and angles. Yeah, and Ellie would often post photos

of her just with a wine glass in front of my eye. Once there was a pizza slice, it became a running gag. And then I went to the Moorfields and they were like, we need to test you for a whole lot of things. And I was in there for about six hours and they're like, you've got to go, you've got to have an operation in three days. And I just fucking sobbed.

But one of the things they tested me for was syphilis and I thought, oh, you dirty slut. Oh, my goodness. He didn't do it in my eye. You don't have syphilis eye. Oh, nobody wants syphilis eye. Oh, gross. But yes, I'm syphilis free.

Any future lovers out listening. And also, I can't tell which eye it was. Yeah, I don't have any wonky eye. You did well to escape without any permanent lasting damage. That's right. I did get some sexy, sexy, like Diamante eye patches. And actually, one passage I was rereading today was all about your relationship with your body.

And you said such a brilliant thing. I think, and I'm going to misquote you now, but essentially it was about how you actually found you have a better relationship with your body because it's sort of free from the judgment of anyone because it's all your own. And if you want to pierce it or wax it or tattoo it, like it's all your own.

And actually that sort of surprised you as well. Yeah, absolutely. And it was so weird, like thinking that, you know, my body belonged to somebody else about, you know, the way I had my hair or lack of hair or whatever. And just there were moments in the last year where I just felt such elation and the freedom to do whatever I wanted. And especially to do with that. And I just remember, you know, my ex was quite critical of how I did exercise and, you know, sometimes, you know, the clothes that I wear and I just always felt on edge that he would criticise something

and I didn't realise that sort of drip, drip, drip feeling of not really being loved and not really feeling sexy around him and all that sort of stuff. And I was conscious of that, you know, going into dating as well because I knew that I had such an absence, that I'd been sort of robbed of that kind of love and affection over many years and clearly he was giving it to somebody else. Yeah, so I think, you know, when the first time I had sex with a guy

and he said I was beautiful, it was just such a shock that someone would say that. I've got used to it now. it was just such a shock that someone would say that. I've got used to it now. But, yeah, but I think those sort of things, you start to believe. If you're, you know, sort of robbed of those sort of compliments, then, yeah, it just feels like I wasn't, you know,

and I did for a while not just feel good enough, but now I just feel it's been such a transformation and also I've really enjoyed exercise now it's um and I've enjoyed doing like power lifting and running and all sorts of things and yeah I just it just sort of just put a new light on who I was yeah and and you know it wasn't sort of a reinvention but it just sort of you know just taking off those layers of of of self-doubt and worth you, that had been challenged for so long within that relationship. Yeah. And just to just feel good about myself as me.

Yeah. So I think that, yeah, so that was a really nice thing about going through grief is that you get this opportunity to just lay everything out. Yeah. And sort of rebuild yourself from there well I suppose it's extraordinary because firstly I totally understand that thing of like if someone is constantly dripping that you know negativity you start actually thinking you're not really worth anything better than that because that just becomes commonplace and if that's how you're spoken to if that's your line in the pecking order that's just

where you're at yeah and when you're out no one's gonna call them up on it or nothing's gonna change it's never gonna be like you shouldn't say that about your wife or you know yeah you just think okay this is just the dynamic of things yeah but obviously you you know up until that point everything was as you as far as you knew fine yeah so it's sort of almost like you've gone through this big thing and gone oh actually i think this has been a there's been problems here for a really long time yeah and i'm sure there will be people that read the book and then think actually how how are things here and how how am i treated and how do i feel about that and are we taking each other for granted or being casually rude or not really helping the other one out because it's just so easy to get

in this people can behave very badly especially when the love starts to go it brings out like the worst in people generally yeah and presumably as well you that means you'll be raising kids where you feel like they will have better self-worth for themselves you know and you can talk to them about that really openly and with experience about how to be in a relationship and how how their happiness wouldn't be dependent on that person for certain things and to make sure you're always checking in with yourself. Yeah, definitely.

It's all powerful tools going forward. I mean, going back to the kids and motherhood, did you always think you'd have children? Was it something you always wanted to do? Oh, absolutely. I'm one of five kids and my dad was a vicar. So I grew up in a vicarage and then my mum was a childminder. So there were

just kids everywhere. And I just couldn't wait to have children. Like, I just, I... Where are you in the lineup? I'm fourth out of five. Okay. Yeah. So it went boy, girl, boy, girl, boy. And we're all pretty creative and nutty and, and musical and all that sort of thing. So it was a pretty loud and wonderful kind of house to grow up in. And my mum was always very motherly. And she met my dad.

She was in the choir. My dad was the young vicar. And they met and were together from when she was 19. And I remember going through couples counselling with my ex and then I started to describe my relationship with my parents and their relationship and I'm going, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, that's me. I found, you know, I started going out with my husband when I was 19 and the parallels, I thought, fuck, I'm just my mother.

I didn't think I was my mother but I am, I am my mother. But, yeah, I always wanted to be a mum and I used to write lists of baby names and I was very focused on becoming a parent. And I remember saying to my ex um before I turned 30 I either want to get married or have a baby and I had my first daughter two days before I turned 30. You just had it in your head? Yeah. Phew got in there. Yeah got it in yeah exactly I had my first baby in my 20s um yeah. It's funny how we do that to ourselves I've done things like that too. Stupid I know the lists or the sort of rules that you make for yourself yeah I was like I don't want any babies in my 40s so I had Mickey like I think it was like three months before my 40th birthday to me

it's fine I was in my 30s yeah yeah who cares literally who cares show me the gold star yeah yeah yeah exactly I know exactly right so yeah and then we got married about 15 months after that and then had my second a year after that. So I sort of knocked it out quite early and I had Matilda in Cambridge and, like, all the other first-time mums who were all in their 40s, academics, it was really different. There was this young, plucky Aussie girl who'd just arrived off the boat. Did you know many people back then? Not really, no.

So, and I took it really fucking seriously. It was all, you know, only breath milk and, you know, organic purees and all that sort of stuff. And I thought, who? And then, you know, I've become famous for being a slaggy, boozy, sweary, scummy mummy who, like, feeds her kids' fish fingers off the floor. Like, what a turnaround.

But I took it so, oh, God. You know, I want to go back to bloody Bowdoin Helen you know Brett on Stripe Helen uh in 2008 going it's going to be all right sweetheart you're going to be all right let her out now yeah get your box wine in babes deliveroo will be a thing one day don't don't worry it'll all work out um yeah so I just oh gosh and I was in the NCT it was all very intense and you know know, but, you know, I think those versions of motherhood were it, you know. We had the books, you know.

Social media really wasn't portraying motherhood in any other way other than, you know, the bugaboo, you know, sweaty Betty leggings, go out and jog three months after having a baby kind of thing, which is all fine if that's you but I didn't feel like I was sort of fitting into that no so true and it didn't ever really sort of bend into uh young life as well it felt like if you had a if you're a mother even if you're in your 20s you you and okay you're in that chapter now yeah so um I mean the way I always think as a good sort of parallel is actually the evolution of breast pumps.

Yeah. Because when I had my first, so that was 2004, the breast pump was this huge, enormous medical grade thing. It looked like a record player. It was like this huge sort of... Huge, cumbersome, single as well. Yeah. Swap it over halfway through.

Yeah, it looked like it could revive someone's heart. Yeah, it's true, yeah. Clear! I remember falling asleep once when i was because of my first idea he didn't come home from hospital straight away yeah because he was early like like ellie's baby and then i fell asleep in the middle of the night pumping one side and left it on for like an hour oh my god it was just a thing i don't even know what it looked like by the end of it it's not supposed to be in that cone for that no no it's not

pop singer dies from having her breast It's not supposed to be in that cone for that long. No, no, it's not. Pop singer dies from having her breast milked. Yeah, yeah. God, sucked everything else out as well. Not just the milk. My lifeblood went into that. And then by the time I had Mickey, so that's, you know, 2019, breast pump was this, like, you can get wireless, slip in your bra, wander around, this, like you can get wireless, slip in your bra,

wander around, lights up like a little disco light, works on an app on your phone. Oh my gosh. You know. It's like a video game. Yeah. And it's like that,

okay, oh, you want to have that kind of life, you want to be that kind of person. Yeah. You go do that and we can do this, we can do that simultaneously.

Yeah. So I was thinking that's quite a good way, like the timeline, you know. Yes, I know. From beginning to end of how,

and how motherhood's perceived as well and how open we are about the stuff that's tricky. And you're right. I mean, I had the Gina Ford book given to me when I had my first, which is the Contented Baby book. I don't know if you're familiar with her work. It was a huge thing. So miserable.

Yeah, about the dream feeds and about control and every four hours and all that sort of stuff. And I was like, I was a failure from day one. Yeah, me too. I couldn't do the controlled crying. Me neither. I put Matilda upstairs and I couldn't hear her crying. I just wept on the sofa.

I was like, how is this good for anybody? No, no. She's crying, I'm crying, you know. I'm with you. Yeah. I did a week of it and it was the worst week. Oh, God. It was horrible.

Yeah, no. Yeah. I just sort of, then I limped through motherhood. And guess what was fine? Yeah, it was okay. One biscuit at a time. But it's interesting there's been such a big evolution from when you've had your first baby to wait, you know,

to the things that actually now most people would think are synonymous with you, like the scummy mummy thing. I mean, did that come through comedy then, that you kind of discovered, let yourself be you? Yeah, and I think it's sort of, you know, art imitating life, imitating art sort of thing. And the more that I was open about the struggles of motherhood and also how hilarious and ridiculous it is.

Yes. You know, that you are sometimes covered in many different body fluids that, you know, you didn't think you could be that disgusting, but you are when the kid has, like, the baby's thrown up in your bed and done a wee, and you've probably done a wee on the bed as well, and you just put a multitude of towels down and go to sleep because you're so fucking tired. It's gross.

It's really gross. But I think if you can laugh through some of it, then I think that's really important. And there is so much rich humour to be mined from it as well. But also I think one of the best bits of feedback or comments that we get from other mothers is just said, fuck, you've made me feel normal. Yeah. And I think, again, like divorce and these sort of big life shifts is that we kind of feel like we're alone in it. I was like, is anyone else going through it?

And Ellie and I were actually talking about it the other day. I remember once driving from Oxford to Cambridge and my daughter wouldn't stop crying unless we sang Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star. So me and my ex-husband, I think for two hours, sang Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star. If we stopped, she would start crying. And just the things that you did in those early days, or lying next to her with a hairdryer before we had that white noise app, and just holding a hairdryer in the middle of the night thinking, this is probably really fucking dangerous. Yeah, yeah.

I remember all of that stuff. I remember with my first, he, I thought, this was when he was in a Moses basket, so he must have been about, I don't know, eight weeks old. I remember reading him a bedtime story and then I would, in a darkened room, then hold my hand just lightly over where his eyes are to help him close his eyes just until he'd fall asleep. Just hover it, just hover it in your hand.

I thought that was what I needed to do. Oh, my God. But actually, even now, my two-year-old Mickey, he's really into music, so when I walk him to nursery and he's in the buggy, he makes me put on,

at the moment, he's really into Indie, Indie, get up. Like this J Balvin remix. And we played it on the way to school this morning. It must have been about eight times. As soon as we finished, oh, an Indie, get up.

So we walk past all these other kids going to school and we're like this sort of like funky little bugaboo. Indie, Indie, get up. And walk past all these other kids going to school and we're like this sort of like funky little bugaboo, the Indie, Indie Ghetto. And he's like pumping his little head along. But yeah, if I turn it off, he'll just shout for it. So yeah, it continues.

I know he's definitely in boss baby mode. Yeah. But when you started doing comedy, were many people talking about parenthood in that way? Yeah, I think we were sort of part of that first wave of sort of, you know, what they call like honest parenting. But we did the podcast and we were doing the live comedy

shows. So they're sort of simultaneous pretty much. Yeah, so they sort of, yeah, they sort of, the podcast started in the July 2013 and then we did our first live show in the November. And they both sort of hit, they struck a chord and we were really surprised. Like the podcast now, I think it is listened to in over 150 different countries. That's amazing.

There's scumbags everywhere. It's a universal theme. And I love that. We even went to Nepal a few years back and interviewed some women over there and we were talking about parenthood and all the, even though their lives are very different, we talked about, do you need to, you know, give them biscuits to put their shoes on? They're like, yeah.

And so it's been really awesome. And, yeah, so I think we were very much part of that first wave. And I think women were desperate to know that they weren't alone and that, you know, it's normal to feed them. If they've got a child that only eats pizza, you know, that's okay. No one's going to die from eating pizza. Yeah yeah my son's still alive very much because of that um because yeah and I think that was that was kind of liberating in a way and also in in good for me as well because I just thought you know am I am I doing it wrong because those images of parenthood

were just very much sort of perfection based and I think this made everyone feel pretty crap, really. Yeah, like you failed automatically. Yeah, exactly. So that was great in a way. But we are really conscious now. It did sort of tip one time where we were like, all the photos of us are holding glasses of wine. And we thought, actually, let's calm down the wine pics a bit,

even though it makes everyone feel better. But, yeah, I think we're kind of conscious that there's a mix of a balance. let's let's calm down the wine picks a bit even though it makes everyone feel better but yeah i think we're kind of conscious of that there's a mix of a balance but also our content like we're now ellie and i are about to run the marathon and you know that doesn't feel very scummy but i think it sort of tipped a bit more into what we are as women in our 40s and what we're achieving in that sort of sense so i think it's sort of evolved we're not talking so much about you know dirty nappies and things like that but that content's still there if people want to listen to it yeah but I think you know we're all allowed to be like there's always a 360 as well so you can have that side

of you and also be flipping marathon which is incredible by the way yeah um so you're running it for women's aid and Ellie for born yeah the premature baby charity yeah yeah and they're both fantastic charities but yeah what started off as a bit of a laugh about, you know, going, oh, yeah, let's do it for attention. Now we're going, jeez, it's a long way. It's a really long way to run. Yeah. Yeah.

Too long, I would say. Yeah, I reckon. I'll probably just be crawling by the end of it, but it'll be fine. No, I think you're going to nail it. I'm seeing how much running you're doing. It's like amazing. Oh, it's ridiculous. Yeah,'s ridiculous yeah yeah maybe go you carried on the wave as well all the people watching and cheering and all that yeah um before I let you go I want the one thing I did wonder is when you've written a book like yours do you find yourself then open to other

people telling you all their stories all the time yeah yeah, yeah. Is that okay? That is, that is, that's been a really beautiful and sometimes overwhelming thing. So I'm getting messages daily from women sharing their stories and some are absolutely heartbreaking and some are from sisters or friends who've got friends going through that. And especially when the book first came out,

yeah, I was really overwhelmed by it. And also I felt very raw because in the week before the book. Yeah, I was really overwhelmed by it and also I felt very raw because in the week before the book came out I didn't sleep very much because I thought, shit, I've told this really raw story about, you know, there's bits of it about passing out from drinking too much alcohol and, you know, it's very explicit about my sex life and all that sort of stuff and I felt pretty exposed. But actually people said, no, because I'm'm so honest it's actually been very comforting but yeah sometimes that's

hard to manage because I feel really responsible because I've shared my story and I've invited people in um but yeah I try to reply to all the messages and even if it is just sending you lots of love and um thank you I just want to I want to do that because it takes a lot for someone to share that with a stranger and what's the hardest bit when you're about to publish that is it when it's actually out or is it the bit just before when you know it's sort of coming but you haven't quite got to it it was a bit before it's a bit it's a bit like before the birth isn't it I'm glad you said because my book I've got a book coming out soon I've been quite honest and I'm getting really freaked out oh it's an awful feeling. Asking for a friend.

Yeah, it's absolutely disgusting. Yeah, it's really nerve wracking. Yeah, there was one night I just couldn't, I couldn't sleep. And also, you know, if I'm being really honest, I was, I, you know, so much of the work I've done has been with Ellie and this is just me. And I've always, because Ellie's amazing. She's smart and funny and just a brilliant human being. And, you know, this was very much about my story, even though she writes a chapter in it, which is excellent. But I, you know, my relationship with her is so precious and I didn't want that to sort of, you know, I'm a big people pleaser. So I thought, oh, shit, you know know I hope this doesn't affect the scummy

mummies because that's my most precious thing um so I think I was having big kind of conniptions about that as well um but yeah I'm just it's a relief that the book's not shit it's not shit it's definitely not but also it's a big love letter to your children yeah and to yourself you know about where you're at and how you feel about things. Yeah. As you said, a lot of positivity. But also the thing that made me think of is, you know, I had a girlfriend go through a similar thing not that long ago. And we were always close. But I think since she's been through this, you know, had to walk through the fire,

and I've been one of the people that she'd call, I feel like our friendship is closer than ever. Yeah. So I get the impression that's probably the result with Ellie too. Yeah, absolutely. And we've had to, you know, we've done a lot of crying and a lot of swearing together and all the extremes and I think that really strengthens your bond.

And, yeah, I think that was the hardest bit to write in the book about when I told her and then when I had to read the – are you going to read your own audio book? I've done oh my god I hadn't reread a lot of what I've written yeah also I couldn't say a lot of the words that I wrote I couldn't say a company company and inning I couldn't say that I cannot say that word they're like fine to say joining Helen I was like okay they were joining me um yeah I found it quite harrowing. And there were bits where I just burst into tears. And they're like, do you need a minute? I was like, yeah. Yeah. So I think, but it was cathartic. It was really cathartic kind

of reading the book. So yeah, when don't worry, listener, if you get the audio book, it doesn't have me sobbing. They've edited that quite smartly. Well, yeah, before I let you go, so you're back on the live circuit now. Yeah. So you've been doing gigs again. Yes. How's that been? Absolutely bloody awesome.

It is so delicious. And also the audience, I don't know how you found it, the energy from the audience is just yummy. It's ramped up a bit, hasn't it? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And just, you know, bright eyes and smiles at you. It's been really wonderful. And a big, yeah, like going back to places like Camp Best of all which we did a couple of years ago and just seeing everyone again

was just wonderful so yeah we're sort of booked up until i think about june next year amazing on and off so that's really that's really great and nice to be in the tour van and and living that life again but yeah i just feel incredibly grateful to do what i love so it's good yeah and it gives us a catharsis as well doesn't it for any of the stresses and tensions and all that stuff yeah because I do be thinking I can't I'm not sure I can get the gig you know I'm not there and then you go on stage and it brings you what you need yeah yeah definitely no it's great and you know I learned a lot from like writing and doing stuff online and you know doing insta lives and all that sort of stuff but really nothing beats the roar of the crowd and I know and just getting you know backstage and getting ready and feeling all those those feelings again so yeah

yeah we're sort of going all over the country and um yeah it's it's fantastic really cool yeah keeps you well stocked in percy pigs fucking yes yeah jesus those catsuit stink oh they're awful oh jesus so you've got the like um the uh the ones that are from that place in bristol yeah yeah yeah i've got one of those yeah they're lovely um but yeah we don't want to we don't we don't want to wash them in case they lose their luster i think washing those ones is they're only made of like lycra or something aren't they okay thank you sophie elizabeth stuff my crotch will smell better because of this pop star, everyone. It's really funny.

Why don't you wash them? They're just like sportswear. I feel like such an idiot. No, but like the sequin ones, now they're hard to wash. Oh, yeah, the Rosa Blooms. Yeah, you have to do that in the bath. Oh, okay. But that's just every once in a while when I think,

okay, I really need to. Okay, we've got catsuit care covered here. Yeah, I have to do that in the bath. Oh, okay. But that's just every once in a while when I think, okay, I really need to. Okay, we've got catsuit care covered here. Yeah, exactly. That's your new line. Oh, blimey. Oh, my God. That's funny. I will wash my catsuit now.

I feel like I really am the scummy mummy. Yeah. Off me. I'll give you one of my fabrics off my tablets. Oh, thank you. Yeah. I'll give you one of my fabrics off my tablets. Oh, thank you. What a woman. So joyful. Really loved hanging out with Helen and talking to her. And she really genuinely looks glowy and sparkly, radiates joy,

which is always a good thing, isn't it? Not saying it's a great advert for getting divorced, guys. But it is a good advert for going through a really big upheaval that wasn't even your choice and coming out the other side, realizing that maybe things have worked out for the best. Or at least you can cope and thrive under conditions you weren't anticipating. And maybe you're a bit fearful of. And who isn't fearful of an unexpected change in their life?

Oh, blimey, I'm walking through a very busy area. Sorry to Richard, who's editing. He always likes me to go somewhere quiet. And I seem to... God, why is it so busy around here? Oh, they must have just closed the tube oh it must be that because there's literally oh maybe like a hundred people still outside the local tube station that does not look good something's gone wrong well at least they've

got nice weather to wait outside um I'm off in a minute to do a gig it's my last band gig in the diary for a while so i'll enjoy that actually because i love playing with my band i don't mean i'll enjoy having the last one i mean i enjoy playing with them i came out wrong and then i've nearly finished um nearly finished my uh main bits of promotion for the book. I did Saturday kitchen today. That's actually really fun because you basically just sit there, answer questions about yourself and eat really nice food. So I ate for breakfast. I had duck waffles with black garlic. I had homemade ravioli with ricotta and lemon. I had chestnut soup with partridge. And I had Malaysian fish curry. So, you know, I did well out of life this morning on Saturday Kitchen. I should have made a joke there that that was just what I had before I got to Saturday

Kitchen. Damn it, I missed an opportunity for a laugh that's annoying anyway uh i'll love you and leave you for now um hold on i'm about to bump into my 12 year old daddy's gone out for a haircut he'll be back in about an hour okay all right where are you guys off to uh get pokemons and martin hasn't had lunch, so what do you think? Oh, okay. I probably won't get anything, but he just wants to eat. You might be able to get something at home, Martin. Otherwise, you could pick up a sandwich when you're out. Okay. Okay.

All right, guys. See you in a bit. See you in a bit. Bye. That's my 12-year-old. They're off out to get Pokemons, apparently. Anyway, I will love you and leave you. Got another lovely guest next week.

Sorry, that's distracted me a little bit i wasn't expecting to bump into him why is he off wandering he has asked permission but i wasn't expecting him anyway have a great week my darlings i hope the sun shines for a few days more lots of love see you soon thanks to you thanks to helen thanks to claire my lovely producer lma for my amazing artwork and you for your ears. See you soon. Bye-bye. Thank you.