Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 7: Jacqueline Gold

Episode Date: August 17, 2020

For Spinning Plates this week Sophie is joined by the gentle yet radical businesswoman Jacqueline Gold. Jacqueline is CEO of Anne Summers and she revolutionised the company after introducing the Anne Summers Party concept in the 1980's. She is mother to twins Scarlett and Alfie. Scarlett is now 10 and Alfie sadly died when he was just eight months old. Here she talks proving grey-suited men wrong, quietly changing culture to empower women in the bedroom while all the time striving to be an awesome mum. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Peloton all-access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running. Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Good day to you. I'm trying not to start every podcast going, hello, how are you?

Every time I record my podcast, some weird noise starts. I think that's Richard in the garden with a leaf blower. Is that very annoying? That's probably a bit too annoying, isn't it? Well, I'll persevere just in case. I mean, the thing is, Richard does my editing, so he might decide that he's going to let himself off with the leaf blower and it's not too annoying. I've had to start recording the introduction to this week's podcast three times in my house because it's so hard to find a quiet place. So now I'm in my bedroom actually, sealed away. And rather embarrassingly, I recorded today's guest, Jacqueline Gold, in my house. And it was the most noisy place I've recorded any of my podcasts. So my house is a noisy house.

What more can I say? That is the world I live in. I'm really excited about, I get excited about all the guests, I know that. But Jacqueline, for me, was a really special chat because I didn't know her at all. We only met for the first time when we met to have our conversation. And so I was really, really, really happy that she'd said yes that she wanted to

speak to me so that was lovely um but also she is one of those women that I was kind of always someone I admired from afar so Jacqueline is the CEO of Ann Summers um and she comes across as a very gentle woman you'll hear in her voice she's she's got a gentle speaking voice. However, she is a very strong, formidable, and actually quite a radical woman. And I think being radical is something that you can maybe push a bit further if you can slightly hypnotize people with a gentle voice. At least I imagine something like that might have happened when aged 21. She made a decision at the company she was working, Ann Summers, that ended up revolutionising, I suppose, how the sex shop is on the high street. So back in the early 80s, Jacqueline had the idea when she was working at Ann Summers. She was only planning to work there as a sort of work experience, short term thing.

She was only planning to work there as a sort of work experience, short-term thing. And back then, women as consumers in the sex industry were only 10% of the consumers. The rest of them were what she called men, the raincoat brigade. So sort of scurrying in and out of the sex shops. But having visited, I think she said it was a clothing party that was equivalent to like a Tupperware party. She went there with an Ann Summers colleague and she thought, hang on a minute, what if we did lingerie and sex toys just for women at parties, like a Tupperware party, but an Ann Summers party? And it changed everything. And now women are 70% of everything and now women are 70% of the consumers they are 70% of the consumers in sex shops but I doubt that they are 70% of the CEOs

so as you know Jacqueline is still a trailblazer she's still a revolutionary kind of woman and we have a lot to thank her for because she has changed how women are perceived when it comes to thinking about their sexual selves. You know, back in the late 70s, early 80s, women were still thought to not really enjoy sex and not want to be participating in buying anything that might be just to enhance their pleasure, which is ridiculous, but also such recent history. That's quite scary, isn't it? Anyway, I'm going to emerge from my quiet bedroom and go down into my noisy kitchen to make a cup of tea uh if you've listened to me before you'll

know i have it white with one i'm happy to put on the kettle for you too i'm going to listen again to um the conversation i have with jacqueline because uh yeah i think she's pretty cool and uh has really done so much it can't really be underestimated how much she's achieved in her life. She's also mother to a 10-year-old girl and a little boy who she speaks very tenderly and with clarity and practicality and gentleness, who sadly died when he was a few months old. So thank you to Jacqueline for her time, her wisdom, her words. And thank you to you for listening again to me and Jacqueline. So, yeah, have a listen and see you on the other side. So I was thinking about talking to you today.

I was thinking what would probably work best is if we both speak at double the pace we do normally, because there's so many things to talk to you about. I don't think I'm going to have long enough. I will do my best to shoehorn it in. But your life has packed in more than most people have. So why don't we start with the here and now. So what is happening in your working life at the moment? of made me start with the here and now so what is happening in your working life at the moment um well it's quite a challenging time not just for retail in general but just because you know the coronavirus you know it's really quite um everybody's got to be on their game of how they make it all work yeah um so but that aside you know we've got some great things going on we've just brought out this new range called my viv which is

all about my very important vagina okay um my viv my viv okay is viv just like the short name for that's just the short name but i did manage to get lorraine kelly to say vagina twice on on lorraine so i feel like there's a big achievement that's impressive actually i think so but i just i think women just generally we put ourselves second all the time. And, you know, whatever phase of your life, whether you've just had children or you've gone through the menopause or whatever it is, you know, our sexual well-being is really important. Really important. And it's not something to be trivialised, which is why we sort of brought out this.

Well, actually, the reason I brought out this range, and it's a range of, it's got sex toys in it, but it's actually from therapy right through to pleasure. So it's candles and, you know, all sorts of things for that whole sort of wellbeing sort of feeling. But it was because I had breast cancer. I don't know if you know that, but I just thought, when a man goes to the doctor with, I don't know, prostate cancer that but I I just thought when the man goes to the doctor with I don't know prostate cancer or something the first thing the doctor says is this

is going to affect your sex life but with women it's not spoken about really no and I just think you know there needs to be something that makes women feel more comfortable so that's really what I've been doing yeah well actually maybe that's the sort of tip of the iceberg actually and when it's ever spoken about in relation to much else that's going on with women generally our our sex lives and our relationships with our body in that way and I know when you have a baby and all those things it's not really something that it's sort of alluded to sometimes about when it might be appropriate time to restart your sex life after you've given birth but your you know the hormones and your emotional thing and your connection with yourself again is not really something that I don't know if I would

have known who to speak to about that at the time or if it's even really given much much space we often feel embarrassed or you know are they going to think this is silly yeah it's not silly yeah well I think also I don't know I might be wrong but certainly I mean I'm friends with I know the girlfriends where we're very confident about talking about loads of stuff. But I think talking about our sex lives is something that I think is probably, if I drew a, you know, sort of pie chart of what we talk about, I think it's a really tiny thing because most people are still maybe very private, but also I feel like it's still quite taboo maybe even when we were teenagers.

Yeah, I don't know. My friends talk about it all the time. Yeah, well. Maybe it's because quite taboo maybe even when we were teenagers my friends talk about it all the time yeah well maybe it's because of what i do well no but that's good because maybe they felt like it's removed that awkwardness because i'm sure once you um open the floodgates there's so much to talk about and actually what you're talking about with my viv and the the holistic side the the candles and the massage things that's so key because it's it's so it's so emotional and i think the older you get the better you get recognizing the need to put that on equals footing really it's not going to you're not going to enjoy yourself if you're not emotionally feeling like you've got the space to do that it's not just a physiological physical definitely and you know there are things that you

worry about i i had a mastectomy in february and i thought to myself you know is my husband still going to fancy me you know those are real feelings this is something you've literally just gone through this February just gone uh sorry February last year okay okay time's flying so fast but yeah February last year well that's a massive deal to go I mean yeah that's so alongside all the stuff that's happening with Anne Summers at the moment, and this is still presumably a Monday to Friday, nine to five job that you're doing all the time. Yeah, I mean, obviously anybody that's gone through chemotherapy or treatment knows it's a pretty brutal time.

And, you know, you've got to listen to your body. But I'm working back full time now because it was just important to me that as soon as I felt well enough, you know, everything is dominated by health issues. And you want to get to a stage where you just have a bit of normality back into your life. Yeah. And obviously, I've got a 10-year-old daughter. I wanted her to see mummy being, you know, active and doing stuff again. Yeah.

So, yes. And, you know, I feel so much better for it I think it's for I mean it's different for everybody but for me it's good for my well-being yeah no well it is different for everybody but I think also I don't know I've spent a lot of time recently talk I did a job with Macmillan and they were introduced me to a lot of people who've been going through cancer treatment and one thing they were talking about a lot and this is particularly relevant to me as well my stepdad's undergoing treatment at the moment and um they're talking about sometimes when people have had the treatment it's the bit afterwards that's actually really terrifying because you've

had the the shock and the fear of your initial diagnosis but then there's the the course of you know the treatment that's going to follow when that's all finished that's the bit where you've got to think okay how do I reconfigure that experience back into the life I was having before well I think you feel a bit vulnerable because you don't have that sort of bubble around you yeah and you know there's that tendency to look over your shoulder but we don't do that when we get in a car do we no no you know I know so that's you know what you have to keep telling yourself I think yeah that must take I suppose that sort of the strength of mind and also I suppose a little bit knowing how to deal with trauma really because it's a sort of invisible trauma I suppose once it's once you're the other side of it um just

you say like having that thing of it must just stay in your peripheral vision because you've had your relationship with body one way and then you've got to start thinking about ways it could it could you know harm you which is a really significant thing to go through and I know for for our family it's been a really steep learning curve we've all had experiences with cancer before but having it very close to home is something that it has concentric circles you know everybody's everybody's affected by it um so throughout all of this you've obviously got your your daughter and what was happening at the time when you first did you always want to be a mum from when you were young um i mean i was you know quite ambitious i um you know had this amazing

uh idea that i wanted to do the ann summers party plan which is sort of light tupperware for those that don't know um when was how old were you when that was I was only 21 when that's 21 yeah and I remember walking down that long corridor and going into the boardroom to talk to some grey suited men about my idea and actually one board member stood up threw his pen on the table and said well this isn't going to work is it women aren't even interested in sex so I'm very glad to all those women that proved him wrong yeah and then some yeah and of course it just took off and it was just amazing I mean you know if you're to have a business that's growing at 20 a year to a point where I

had to stop advertising because I literally couldn't cope with the rate in which we were growing and all the teething problems that went with it. So it's been quite phenomenal. And of course, there was all the challenges that went with doing something so different that was, you know, quite culture changing. You know, all I really ever wanted to do

was empower women in the bedroom, but there was so much stigma at the time. And I think the fact that it was always for women only, you know, made a huge difference and sort of created this almost, I don't know, it's almost like a female institution. Yeah. You know, because even our stores, you know,

80% of our customers are women. Yeah. So it's been a fantastic journey for me, fantastic, but not without its color and and challenges so 80 of the customers are female for the fans summers yes okay but when you were young what when the company was at the point when you were 21 and walking down to the boardroom what was the split then oh it's 10 10 women and you know it was a very male-dominated environment um you go into the stores and it'd be like you know it was a very male-dominated environment um you go into the stores and

it'd be like you know it was the raincoat brigade that were in the stores it was just totally different and yeah you know it's i guess one of the things i'm most proud of actually is the way it's changed so much oh it's a massive massive shift i mean to go from women being the object to being actually the customer um you can't really underestimate what a massive deal that is especially when this we're not talking about a couple of shops we're talking about a massive you know something that everybody sees on their regularly on their high street brand this is something that's widespread in every in every town yeah we have over 100 stores we had 140 stores at our peak um and when i think back you know i've been arrested twice I've had a bullet through the post

when I tried to open a store in Ireland um and how difficult that was then and then in 2016 I think it was I received a a CBE from the Queen I'm thinking gosh what a journey you know and you can't help yourself but look back and think how it was to what it is like now I I know so just to give it sort of context for me, so when you were 21, what was your role in it? Because you'd been working in the company from when? When were you a teenage? Well, I did some work experience.

Because it was your dad that was working in the company, right? He had four stores, and it was mainly a publishing business then. I had no intention of staying because, as I said, it was a very male-dominated business. And I was just doing some work experience and I got invited to and for those listeners that will remember Pippa D party it was like a a closed party over in Thamesmead and um I went along to this party and I the women at the

party knew that I worked at Ann Summers and I I remember sort of drawing a picture of my husband's meat and two veg on a piece of paper on top of my head um along with all the other guests at the party was one of the sort of little party games yeah and I was thinking this isn't quite how I imagined my career starting no but it you know that is where it really started that's where I got the idea women at the party said to me why don't you do parties for um women we want to be able to buy sex toys but we're too embarrassed to go into a sex shop so when you went to the that party and at that point so they knew about and summers being a sex shop but presumably they would know it as

somewhere that as you say the raincoat brigade it has this sort of slightly different look and feel and association but could you just sense that there was a real intrigue from them about the world of buying things to enhance your sex life or talking about your sex totally because if you think back i mean we've been on a crusade for the last you know 30 30 odd years because women could not buy sexy underwear in the high street like they can today there was no such thing as a lacy bra wow you know let alone being able to buy something that you want to use in the bedroom. It was men that made all those decisions. Yeah.

So, you know, it completely changed. And for a period, you know, the men of that generation, you know, were quite uncomfortable about women being empowered. But, of course, that's sort of a culture that's not the case today. You know, when you were talking about the effect of Ann Summers and your decisions and the exciting boldness of your initiative, aged only 21, it really reminds me of the effect that Madonna has had on the music industry

because what you basically did, everything sort of trickles down from that point because now as you say buying a lacy bra is something that's very commonplace buying sex toys there's lots of other shops that you know cater for women's sexual selves in fact I'd say off the top of my head in terms of the high street I feel like everything is kind of geared towards the female consumer I can't really think of a high street place that's more for well do you know the irony about this and it's so true 70% of purchasing decisions are made by women and yet most companies most brands are headed by men yeah I've never got that never no but then it's this in music industry when I was 18 and I signed my first record deal I went for a meeting at Mercury Records,

and I was all excited, and I had such an idea of what a music, you know, a record company would look like, and how, like, finger on the pulse. And when I got there, I was so disappointed. There was a load of people sat, you know, sat looking at their computers and using Photoshop, not even, like, doing exciting, you know,

design things or music things, you know, using Photoshop to sort of do like promo copies of CDs. And I was thinking, that's the first thing a fan will own. Why didn't you put loads of work into that? Because that's the thing we'll be really excited about and turning over and looking at all the details and trying to work things out about this new music. And then the boss guy was a really nice guy, but he was in his 60s and we were having a chat about music. And he was correcting me all the time and telling me what people my age were interested in.

I thought, I'm sat here right in front of you. I'm an 18-year-old girl who's passionate about music. Why don't you ask me? I'm not saying I'm going to be right about everything, but... Have you found things have changed? I think what it is is more that you find your people. And then there were some really good people I met around then too and then they they have just continued on a really successful trajectory so i wouldn't say i don't think that's been eliminated at all no and i think if you have art and commerce

working together there's always going to be slightly uncomfortable bedfellows because you're going to get people who you know think they're in a snazzy job because it's music but ultimately what they're doing is working with stock. You know, you're making stock and shifting it. So I think it's going to be tricky to eliminate that completely, or even if it's necessary to do that. But I think it's more that I feel that there's quite a lot of exciting thinkers that are peppered in amongst, and when you find those people, you're kind of like,

that's the people I want to work with. I feel like there's more options of how to do things, and that's really exciting. And I think it's probably more democratic as well because now everybody can start their music from home. I'm really glad you brought up your music because I have to say to you, I don't know if you've ever done it,

but I did Desert Island Discs with Lauren Laverne and your record, Groove Jet, was one of my records. It was not! It was, absolutely. Do you know what's funny about that? I knew you'd done it and when I knew you were coming over today, I started looking up loads of interviews and stuff,

and I said to Claire earlier, I had to stop, because I thought, I don't really want to know everything. I'd like to discover things. And I thought, you know, I don't want to be correcting you on those stories. I think, actually, if you'll find you said it was this. But, wow, I'm really excited. Thank you. Is it a nice thing to do, Desert Islanders? Oh, it was, Desert Islanders oh it was

do you know it was lovely it was so nostalgic I mean I was I had a little cry at one point yeah music's so powerful

for that it is so powerful and it was really and they were a really nice team it was all women yeah and Lauren's so lovely

oh she is lovely it was a really nice experience very different to what I normally do so yeah I really enjoyed it. And it's so iconic, isn't it?

So iconic. It felt such a privilege to be asked. Yeah, it's one of those things you're like, I've done Desert Island things. Yeah, no, I mean, people talk about it just as a conversation thing, don't they? What would be your songs for this and songs for that? But I think nostalgia actually is an emotion I feel like

I've only just started to understand, because especially if you're someone like me who's had some, the songs I'm probably best known for happened, you know, 20 years ago actually. So Groove Jet came out 20 years ago. And, you know, when I was younger, the idea of doing any sort of, you know, singing those songs and people feeling nostalgic would be sort of seems like a dirty thing. Like, oh, why would you, it's like saying you're not relevant. relevant but actually I went the other day to a gig of a band called Supergrass who I used to love when I was a teenager and I was really excited about seeing them anyway but

going to the gig and hearing all those songs took me back so massively but also it was so joyful it was so nice and I thought god nostalgia should actually be celebrated more it's a really powerful thing it sort of reconnected me to how I felt back then and I think, God, nostalgia should actually be celebrated more. It's a really powerful thing. It sort of reconnected me to how I felt back then. And I think music's very good with that. It's a little portal that works better than so many other mediums. Because the moment you hear a record, you usually relate it to something that's happened in your life and it will generate some sort of emotion.

Definitely. And also, if you go through anything tough, I found suddenly all those songs about heartache and happiness you know, and happiness. Suddenly it's like, I get this now. These songs are speaking to me. Everything was like unlocked. And you're so glad those songs are there to reassure you that you're not the first and not the last, but you know, other people have experienced it. Yeah. Oh, I'll have to listen to Desire this this hour won't I yeah what was the context of Groovejet um it was when I started dating my my husband oh yeah so you've been together that long so yeah we've been together about yeah 20 years 20 years cool oh that's lovely um well that's that's throwing me a bit I'm trying to think right now I'm speaking to you about. So when you were 21, did you then start taking over the business in your 20s? Yes. Okay.

So it was all about the party plan. And then I became chief executive when I was about 25. That must be highly unusual. Very. Yeah. Yeah, very. I mean, I'm not a business mind but that sounds incredibly young and you know it was also difficult because it was there were so few women

right in business um and you know wherever I went it was men and you know it it was it was just you know difficult it was not just because I was a young woman but also the industry I was in and trying to make the changes and it was doing extremely well but you know I had people saying to me oh this is a fad give it you know give it two years it won't last and there was a lot of negativity around it. Do you think they felt threatened by not only your gender but your youth as well? And both of those things but also because of what I was trying to do right i was trying to empower women and i think that was that was different to what they'd you know it sort of perhaps challenged their and i'm not you know i'm definitely not against men but certainly there

were some men that felt it challenged their masculinity i think actually women can be just as threatened as well by successful women sometimes too because some of us are raised incredibly traditionally but some people think traditionally no matter how modern a life they're trying to live and I think um I think sometimes you know we're all we can all be guilty of sort of falling into quite lazy ways of thinking about what's expected um and sometimes we do it to ourselves I think and that's part of what intrigues me about talking to people about working alongside raising a family is that I think it is it is different to being a working father with the questions you get asked the way you're thinking and the amount of logistics you is like suddenly I actually funnily enough with my kids I often think of them like like companies sometimes

it's like I've got you got five different box files in my head of how each thing is doing and where the priorities are and which areas we're experiencing growth. I could imagine that. Which things are going into the negative. It's like all the sort of project managing I just never thought I'd be doing. But for you when you became a mum,

did you find your business life and the the family life did they work together pretty smoothly I mean my my business and personal life tends to blend into one I think you know that's always worked quite well for me so um and I think it's a way of me maximizing my time with my daughter and it's always been difficult you know more so at the beginning because I think you need to get into that flow and you just think you've got it right and then it's all out the window and you miss a you know you late for a school play or something like that yeah it is awful for women I think it is very challenging because we want to you know we want to have our own identity

and we want to be successful in our own right or do our projects that we want to do but we want to be a really good mum at the same time and but I have learned as I've as I've got older and time's gone on that actually you know it's important for us to do those things and whilst of course you know like most women I've had my guilty moments I also do recognize how important it is for Scarlett to look up to her mum and and be inspired what by what I'm doing yeah but she told me the other day actually for International Women's Day the teacher asked her who inspired her they asked all the children and she said you know my mummy and it was such a lovely feeling to know that. Yeah.

And, you know, I want her to grow up believing she can be whatever she wants to be. But to do that, you know, we mustn't. I find so many women. I mean, I run this competition on a Wednesday called WOW, where women tweet about their business. And I sort of profile the top three and then I sort of do learning days. So it's like female entrepreneurs? Yes, and I do mentoring lunches for them.

I forgot where I was going with this now. I've gone right off on a tangent. Don't worry. What was I talking about before then? I think you were talking about women and how we challenge ourselves. And I just think, we talk about this,

I talk about it too then when we have these lunches, what's so important is that more women do raise their head above the parapet and that we should boldly celebrate our success and what we've done. And we're so keen to play down our achievements. Yeah. But I think it's good for our children to see that, particularly our daughters,

because, I mean, I think so many parents bring their sort of boys up to be brave and their girls to be perfect. Oh, definitely. And there is no such thing as perfect. And, you know, I see it in the boardrooms. You know, I see women that sort of get up and expect you know are expected to pour the tea i've been to off-site meetings with lawyers where they're equal and yet the woman pours a tea and i'm like well don't do that you know um but it's that thing of sometimes being your own worst enemy

with it i think i mean funny with claire and i was just literally chatting about this morning about how many times i've i've made things really muddy and i've actually confused people with the signals i'm giving out because in my head i want to be quite um capable assertive and clear and unapologetic i swear the main thing i'm striving for i think the older i get i really want to get there just the desire to apologize for everything all the time i just want to eliminate that from my life i feel like that's a really um it really sets you back if you start off a lot of your sentences with sorry but or you know apologizing for things going wrong i don't know you do that i actually don't know and then you know as woman to woman i look at you and i i'm in awe of what you do five children and working as at the same time I think is phenomenal you know I I struggle from time to time having just the one well I think it's the same I do think it's the

same issues I think it's just you know everybody's got different ways it manifested but actually I think the issues of having one is actually very similar to having lots it's just probably I shortchange them a little bit more in terms of the time they get um and they're a lot more used to asking me to do something and then me going oh ah I'm really sorry that slipped through the through the net um you know I think I kind of have to go for the basic um the basic thing as being good enough most of the time anyway because I can't going above and beyond is like something that I don't always have time for, really. And hopefully they'll forgive me one day.

And, you know, I don't believe that's the case. I remember talking to somebody one day and saying to them, but I really want to do this, whatever it was, because, you know, I want to be an awesome mummy. And my daughter overheard it and said, but mummy, you are an awesome mummy. And I think we just beat ourselves up, don't we? I think we're too hard on ourselves definitely yes I think so too don't you think when you're a working mum you actually try that you know you often try harder because you're trying to compensate so I'm sure it all evens itself out in the end yeah I did actually hear a really inspiring story about you once um there's a lady called Lisa that came to do your hair once,

and she's a really good friend of mine, called Lisa Lauder. And I was talking to her on the phone. She's one of my kids' godmothers, and I adore her. And she was hearing me, and I was going, oh, you know, this has gone wrong this week, and the house, you know, I'm finding it really tricky, and, you know, I can't remember what happened. So I was finding that everything was getting a bit chaotic,

and she said to me, well, actually, I just did this lady's hair in Jacqueline Gold. And she said to me that in her house, she writes everything down and tells everybody things. And she said, because it's written down, everybody just knows what they're doing. I was like, that's inspired. I'm definitely going to do that. So she's, I mean, I know Lisa very well. And she's just, she's obviously noticed that I am a bit of a list maker oh but that's brilliant and do you do you sit down and have regular meetings with

everybody I've got to be honest I am super organized yeah and I think if you if you have got your life jam-packed with so many things I for me it works it's the only way I can do it is if I can be that organised. And, yeah, I guess, you know, I'm a team player anyway. So, you know, and I'm very, very lucky to the people I do work are just great. And we're all like-minded. And I think that's the important thing. I think if you, the people around you, you know, you need to be, share the same values and work in the same way and I think that that helps and works so it does work for me so if do you find that the way that you handle your working day and the way that you handle stuff in the home is actually quite similar in

terms of approach it is really it's not like two different hats it is my husband's constantly right don't you bring your work home don't you right but he's just to be honest he's just got used to me being super organized yeah and do you if you need to get things done are you are you the sort of mum you thought you'd be like if the pre pre-baby you look at the kind of mother you are and think yeah that's that's pretty much what i thought would be the case no i think life is so different when you have a child that first child and i i just I'm definitely more emotional more connected um and I think you you I don't think you ever know what you're going to be like no I think you're right actually although I say that I think I thought I was going to be a bit stricter actually I'm a lot more

relaxed about things are you yeah which I think is i think it does suit me best i think maybe because there's and do you find your husband is therefore more strict he's quite relaxed i don't mean that we're not there's definitely boundaries i think that's pretty essential um and kids really actually crave that i think if i if they didn't have that and there's so there's lots of continuity there's lots of safe predictability in their world and i really care about that but i think it's more just when things go a bit wonky or how I handle it if I feel like their behavior isn't what I want or they're not doing the things I feel they should do I think I'm I think I'm better at sort of trying to find a different way because being strict actually

doesn't work for every kid anyway I don't think some children really respond if you get quite headteachery but for other kids then well definitely like my my first one I think responded better than that if I start getting a bit stern that would really upset him he hated to see me cross or sad so he would immediately shift his behavior the next one came along and he would just argue back so I had to kind of try a different tactic really so I think I think they've kind of taught me different skills that I needed really that I wouldn't have known how to do before I must admit I'm I wouldn't describe myself as strict but I do carry through so if I say I'm going to do

something as much as you know it might break my heart to do I will carry it through because I you know I just don't see the point in empty threats. Yeah. But I always try and coach her at the same time and explain things to her, and I think I've always done that. Yeah. I mean, I had a situation where she searched something on her iPad. This is like about a year ago now

that she shouldn't have done. And it was following, they'd had their first sex education at school. And then, of course, what do they do? The first thing they do is they go on their iPad and they search sex. So I was mortified, told her not to do it again, and then, of course, she did it again. Yeah.

So I took the iPad away. I've literally, that was a year ago, I've only just given it back. That's quite a, I don't know, is it ironic that that was what it was all about? It was a bit. Well, you know, you say that that was what it was it was a bit well you know you i you say that but i mean um children are curious oh yeah it's part of life isn't it they are going to do that and i think maybe you could say i was a bit naive to think as a parent not anything to do with what i do but as a parent it's a bit naive to think they're not going to do that. No, I've had exactly the same situation with one of mine with an iPad. He'd had a friend over, and they'd been playing,

and then when I reached for the family iPad, I thought, I just need to look something up. And what had been looked up just before me was Hot Girl Boobs. Oh, no, it's history. And Hot Girl Boobs starts out quite innocent, but it gets quite adult really really terrifyingly quickly which is my naivety i had no idea um i mean we've we've got family filters and that kind of thing but i think you've still and actually that was really tricky because

having a conversation with kids and i'm all about every conversation every subject they can talk to me about anything i'm i think there's a way to make it age-appropriate for whatever you're talking about. But because of what he'd searched for, I felt like I had to touch on lots of issues, which I was finding quite challenging. Like saying, well, just because you could see some boobs doesn't mean you're allowed to see any boobs.

And, yeah, it was really tricky with him in the still primary school. I mean, so she's 10 now. She must have been about eight at the time, or nine. Nine she was. I was mortified. So I ran the school for advice. I got some age-appropriate books,

because I suddenly thought, you know, she's ahead of the curve. I need to explain this. Maybe not ahead. I think they are starting to hear those words in the playground around them. And what I've heard is quite a good thing to do is to ask them if they've seen anything that worries them and ask them because we might be able to know immediately what it is they've seen, but they might actually not really know much of what they've seen. And also as a sort of reassuring thing, I think pretty much everybody can probably remember the first time they saw a glimpse into that adult world

and it probably is for everybody around that age around sort of seven eight nine it could be mucking about a friend's house or something you heard in the playground and thinking I need to know more or a book that's a bit high up on a shelf and it's got a section in it where you think oh not sure about that you know it can even be a sort of medical health book and you think not sure these pages are intended for me. I think everybody's got a memory of that. And I think, you know, so long as communication lines are open, that's probably the best thing you can hope for

because I think the worst thing that kids can walk away from is either feeling sort of hugely concerned or frightened or, you know, confused by it, or feeling sort of ashamed, because that shame, as I'm sure you would know lots from all the research into your, you know, potential customers, that shame around sex and those things can last a lifetime, actually, from when you're really quite young, if nobody's there to say, well, that's all there.

But I think we're so much more open in our conversation, or you'd like to think yeah today i know i i certainly am and like you say it's about that age appropriate conversation um and letting them know that you're whatever you action you've taken is to protect them and that you know they're not quite ready you know from an age point of view yeah um and you know i remember saying to scarlet at the time you know this is there are things on the internet that aren't real or they don't represent exactly normal life you know yeah i mean so within scar because you said she's come to work with you sometimes

so does does she not to her are you is your line of work just sort of business rather than knowing too much about context of it she she to her she just knows that we do lingerie because she sees it on my my screensaver um so no she doesn't she doesn't know about the sex toys it's not she's you know it's not i'm sure in the future she obviously will but yeah she's 10 nearly 11 it's she'll probably be incredibly blasé and brilliantly sort of yeah unfazed by everything. What a gift is that for a young girl to just be able to walk through that adolescence and teenage years. But they find out most things at school, don't they?

Yeah, it's true, actually. So they always seem to know more than you think they know. I think that's true, but also they don't need to learn everything from us, actually. I think I'm always reassured when I remember that I am the mother, which is a really important role, but I am also just the mother. There's all these other people and all these other areas where they can get information and have conversations. And I think that really takes the pressure off me a little bit, really,

when I remember I don't have to deliver a complete package of growing up, you know, and I don't have to deliver them at 18, like, OK, I've given you all the knowledge, you know, it's OK for it to come from different places. And, you know, they learn on their own about all of it. That is part of growing up, isn't it? It is, it is. And you've got to have the bits where it's gone a bit wonky.

And they've also got to do the bit when they push us away, which is, you know, it's all part of it. But then they do come back, I'm sure. Well, we definitely have with my mum. I'm dreading that moment. No, but it doesn't really work like that anyway. It's fine because then, I mean, I live ten minutes away from my mum and I went away with her a couple of weeks ago

and it's like, I think the good will out. You have a 15-year-old, don't you? Yeah, I do, yeah. Is that a girl or a boy? A boy. I've got all boys just to make it nice and easy for you to remember. Oh, have you? Oh, wow. Yeah, that's what I could say about the he looking up the hot girl boobs and no-one's remember. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's what I could say about the he looking up the hot girl boobs and no one's identity is revealed.

Okay. But yeah, it's got lots of tiny men in the house. Well, not so tiny. Actually, my eldest is just over six foot. Oh, gosh. Yeah, that's quite weird. If I get my baby, who's one, and I hold him up above me, I'm like, one day you're going to be here.

Yeah, one day I'm going to be like their little mum. How weird is that? Oh, yeah, that's a little way off way off but probably will come around quicker than i think yeah yes it's all these boys and i'm so determined to raise um boys that you know can recognize and encourage strong women in their lives and i think i think i think they've actually got a lot of examples of strong women yeah they've got a lot of that. And I guess you're watching football matches. You know what, we're not. That's the thing.

I haven't, none of them play football. None of them are that interested in football. I might be one of the little ones, might, when they're older. But at the moment, no. It's quite techie. They're quite a lot into their tech stuff. And there's definitely quite a lot of play fighting and that kind of thing. But I don't know.

I mean, I remember my brother and sister doing that. I suppose I'm normally a little bit, I won't go so far as to say defensive, but I try and encourage people to understand that it might not be exactly what you think I go home to because most people pull quite a face when I say I have five boys, and they're like, I've literally had a guy. I remember when I'd had my, I think it might have been my fourth, and I took him, I think he had his six-week check at the hospital or something, so it was like the first time I'd gone out, it might have been my fourth, and I took him, I think he had like a, his six week check at the hospital or something,

so it was like the first time I'd gone out, just me and the baby, like okay, let's go out into the big wide world, and we'll get you there and back, and this old guy sat next to us on the tube, on the way there, and he said,

oh, little boys, it's your first, and when I said fourth, he went, oh dear God, oh, God be with you,

God be with you, he was so sort of, he felt so profoundly sorry for me. But it was so like OTT, I actually found it really funny. Is your daughter quite similar to you, do you think? Is she quite motivated with her work and getting things done and the lists and things? I mean, she's doing well at school, but that's only really come in the last couple of years. We're both creative.

Ah, that's a lovely thing to share. So we love doing painting and stuff together. So that's sort of a bonus. She's very willful. And I love that about her. Yeah. She's, you know, she's also, what I love is that even though she's an only child,

she's very confident and funny and loves, you know, engages with adults quite well, which I guess is because she's an only child. So she definitely has got her own, you know, some of her own sort of characteristics. But yeah, I do see some of me in her as well. It must be quite hard to tell off kids when they're if they're showing that sort of willfulness because for you like so many I know that that man in the boardroom who threw his pen down and said this will never work about the and summer's parties there's sometimes when you've got a feeling in your the pit of your tummy that what you're doing

is the right thing meeting up coming head to head with it and seeing that happen there must have been a part of you that thought that kind of gives you that extra fire um so when you recognize that trait in your daughter it's like kind of like kind of rooting for a bit like yeah yeah go on it's good to be assertive um yeah I know I find that with mine and actually I think that can I can sometimes be a bit too sympathetic like oh I know I recognize that from me I think it's quite a powerful tool, isn't it, when you're parenting? As you've been such a successful businesswoman for such a long time, your career was so established by the time you had your baby. Did you find it tricky to shift and give time to yourself

and let the business sort of do its thing in a slightly more different pace or did that did it not really feel like that it was quite a difficult time for me actually it's sort of bittersweet because scarlet was a twin and um she she had a baby brother as well who was very poorly when he's born so um that he he passed away eight months later. So we went through a very difficult time. So, you know, it was difficult getting a balance because, you know, we take Scarlett to see Alfie and, you know, we've actually got some nice video footage of the two of them together.

So, you know, everything to do with work just obviously was totally up in the air and and sort of went on hold um and then when he sadly passed away it was then a case of yeah and i'm sure there will be parents out there that have been in this situation um sadly where you you you sort of you've got your own grief to deal with but at the same time you want to be strong for your other child yeah you know and that that's that sort of uh is challenging but sort of helpful at the same time because it makes you um you know have to deal deal with that. And, you know, we've always sort of kept Alfie in the conversation. We've always done things to keep his memory alive,

which has been nice because in a way that means he's still here. And particularly for Scarlet being a twin, you know, there's that extra connection which, you know, I've sort of had to manage that. But, yeah, that sort of made it difficult. But, you know, you have to, in some ways, you have to get on with life for the sake of the other child. Well, and I'm sure saying it's difficult is, you know,

sometimes language doesn't really do enough to help us because I can't imagine how awful that must have been to go through and I I when I've tried to think what it must be like to lose a child I think I would want everybody to speak their name I'd want to sing from the rooftop like so everybody knows that they existed they were here so I can very much understand why Alfie has got to be part of everything forever he he was here he's a real person he's Scarlett's little brother he's you know your other baby um I think there's so much awkwardness when you experience something that is everybody's biggest fear I mean who knows how to deal with experiencing the death of a child it's

just it's the thing that most people if they even start the thought they go that's just too terrible i can't think about it um and i think i mean my mum went through something traumatic and she described it as like becoming a member of a club that you never wanted to be a member of and you'd probably find other people that have been through similar things but it's it's very much the story of your family and what happened and also you you know you go through life never thinking those type of things will happen to you and then when you suddenly find yourself in that situation it's like well words don't describe how that feels um and how you cope with that it's you know you'd never think you could possibly cope with that and of course you do you know suddenly finding yourself uh having conversation you

know really difficult conversations and talking with medical people and um you know uh the midwife and all of those challenges um and even giving birth which is supposed to be a really joyous time. And, you know, that's what I... And even now, you know, just every year when it's Scarlett's birthday, you know, we're having a birthday party one minute and going to the cemetery the next. You know, that is quite, you know, those mixed emotions all in the same day is very difficult. That is. I mean, are there things that you would say would be good for people

to know how to handle situations like that if they find it happens to a friend of them or something? Is there things that people did or said that were really helpful or is it just people feeling it's okay to bring it up and talk about it is helpful um i think first of all you know how you deal with it with any other children you know sometimes even now scarlet will go to bed and if scarlet has a tendency if she's tired she can be a bit emotional. And she'll say to me, Mummy, I can't stop thinking about Alfie. And I'll say to her, let's do a little prayer and we'll sit down at the end of the bed and we'll do a prayer together. And that always helps her and it makes her feel better. It makes me feel better.

She feels like she's communicating to him. So that's something we've always done. Also, we made a big chest i had a i got this sort of like treasure chest he always had this pirate theme in his bedroom so we we got this treasure chest painted in a pirate's theme and we filled it with all his special things and every now and again we'll go through those those sort of memories together which I think is nice um and in within our own family we talk about it often yeah but not so much outside the family um but equally you know if it comes up in conversation like now it was part of

our life so yeah you know I think you set the tone I was gonna say I think I mean certainly um when I was talking to you I thought well I'll take my lead from you because I would never want to bring up something really painful if you didn't feel comfortable and I think people will take your lead you know if you don't bring it up then maybe you don't want to talk about it but like you said you know Alfie was so important to us yeah um I can't talk about Scarlet without talking about Alfie yeah and um you know you want to celebrate his short life as well that's that's equally important to me yeah yeah no it's it's yeah it's it's really um really special I think that Scarlet will be able to feel she has that

way of communicating with him in a way that acknowledges and accepts how she feels because grief and those emotions, they're not a chronological straight road. You know, you can have, from what I understand, you can have a day where it feels like a long time ago and another day where it feels like it was just yesterday. And maybe when you were doing the Desert Island disc

and thinking about the music, that must bring things back so viscerally. Oh, totally. At his funeral, we had a record, Wishing on a Star, the Rose Royce record. Oh, yeah. Which I loved, always loved. But obviously it now has a different meaning. And, you know, couldn't help getting tearful. But, you know, I think that is the way it is, you know?

And we shouldn't, you know know you don't know how you're going to react in those situations and if you if you get upset you get upset that is nothing to be ashamed of or uncomfortable about um but it's you know it's all part of our life story isn't it it's part of what we've been through yeah exactly it's all that's the life you had I think um that's the thing I when I had my first baby born born early so sonny was born a couple of months early and he was in hospital and some people i mean it's by no means comparable but it's it's obviously not the uh traditional and accepted ending to a pregnancy and um you know people weren't really sure how to talk to me about it whether they should congratulate me or not and obviously you've had a baby that turns into a patient immediately which you know, people weren't really sure how to talk to me about it, whether they should congratulate me or not.

And obviously you've had a baby that turns into a patient immediately, which, you know, is what we've both been through with that. But I think that the thing I always felt like was sort of slightly pragmatic part of me was, well, this is just I was never going to be still pregnant with him. He was either going to be rather he's never going to be at home with me. He was either going to be in hospital or or I'd still be pregnant so I think you just get on with the reality of of what you know and as you say that is just what happened to us that's our story and um that's that's how life shapes you there's so many things that happen and you know you're hoping for is the good stuff I think the thing that can be you have to be careful of I suppose is if you have what's to your mind a sort of a charmed life or a successful life that you don't feel that there's anything that the scales have to be cast in one way like life doesn't work like that fate fate

is not sitting there somewhere thinking you've had too much of a good thing there we've got to do that it's just that that's just what happens to think to people and talking about it and being open often reveals so much that other people have gone through too. I love the human connections that can happen out of the more traumatic things, but I think it's still something culturally we're not maybe that brilliant about a lot of the time. I think it's, well, I suppose it's just, it's awkward, isn't it?

You don't want to, no-one wants to make someone feel really sad if they feel like they're getting through the day and it's working's awkward isn't it you don't want to no one wants to make someone feel really sad if they feel like they're getting through the day and it's working for them also as the person that's been in that situation you don't want to make other people feel awkward so um but you know i think that i think as a society we do handle these things better than you know say 10 years ago yeah social you know maybe one of the positive things that's come out of social media is that people are more open aren't they i think so i think so definitely and the more everybody continues to talk about the things that are affecting them you know mental

health issues all these things the less taboo they become the more commonplace and you know what the great thing about podcasts and like what you're doing is you know it it doesn't make people people don't feel alone yes you know it's it's helpful to other people yeah that they know that if it's happened to them they're not the only ones massively and actually talking of that when when I was initially thinking about having these conversations about working mums one thing I thought is I really don't want it to feel that for every woman out there, either work or family life is the thing that is like the icing on top of everything

and that, you know, you can be doing your work, but hey, if you become a mother, it's going to access all this creativity and this drive you didn't know you had, and it's really zhuzhy and amazing. It was more to reassure people that if you find yourself trying to work out if you can retain your sense of self and still continue to lead a you know a life that satisfies you it's actually possible it's you know you're not you're not going to suddenly find yourself homogenized and lose your identity just because

you've become someone's parent and it also made me think a little bit about all the many women out there that must be already thinking that they want to start a family and for whatever reason it's taking longer than they want I know I grew up with my stepmom doing many rounds of IVF and I was thinking I wonder if I know that's something you experience and I wondered if there's a sort of almost like a third lane of of traffic really when it comes to the sort of whole idea of being a working mother which is that you've also got the you know you're not if you're decided already that you want to have a baby and you're going about a really intense process of trying to become a mum I wonder if everything's already begun to change for you and and you're actually you found yourself a

a mother without a baby if that makes sense I don really know. I don't know if that's how it feels. Well, I've been married twice, so I got married very young in my 20s. You know, my husband was a Catholic boy and he, in fact, I was 20 when I got married to him, which by today's standards is far too young and certainly was for me. I mean, we were married for eight years, together for ten, because you change so much. Yeah. And we didn't have any children, thank goodness,

and I was always one of those people that I wanted... Of course, you know, I did want to have children, but with the right person. And then, of course, by the time I met Dan, I did want to have children, but with the right person. And then, of course, by the time I met Dan, I was that much older. So we just decided that we would go the IVF route because you could spend ages waiting and then find it's even later. And it was, gosh, it was a really difficult time. I mean, we were successful in our fourth try.

But it really challenges you as a couple. Yeah. It really challenges you as a couple. And we actually broke up for a period of time. Yeah, it must be, I'm not surprised, the strain it puts a relationship under. It's an awful strain. And we did it in this, we tried it in this country three times and then we went to America and did it.

And actually, the attitude was so different. Oh, really? That was something we really noticed. It was very process-driven here and very sort of, you know, quite difficult in having to do, you have to do counselling and all of, but when we did it in America, it was just such a positive, they have such a different way of doing things sometimes, which suited our personalities, I suppose, in the sense that, or certainly suited mine, because it was more when than if. Well, in America, that's how they were. Yeah. Okay.

It sort of suits the idea of having an American, like, they'd just be like, okay, we're going to make this happen. Well, they do have that positive, they have that positivity. And funny enough, just changing the subject, I remember that being the case when I started business. You know, I remember going to a conference in America and they were so everybody was celebrating each other's success.

Whereas I think at that time, you know, we were we people that are successful sometimes find it difficult to talk about it because, you know, but they have just a totally different way of doing things and of course our our culture has changed you know we see things like dragon's den and you know other um the apprentice it's a yeah you know there's a bit more of a difficult culture here but i would still like to see more celebration of women in business and women realizing that they don't have to be um aggressive to be successful. Yeah, well, I think that's a massively significant point, actually, that we're not trying to emulate anyone else that's gone before. It's all about bringing our own strengths to the table. Totally. And, you know, I know we're talking, I'm going off on all tangents here. But,

you know, one of the things I talk about women being successful, know even in my own business is you do not need to be loud to be successful but you you know but you do need to contribute if you're if you're in a career maybe you know I'm as a as a CEO like to see women put themselves forward and and speak up and talk about their ideas um sorry that's my pill reminder if you tap it it will stop yeah that's all right we already had like a conversation about grout or we're having a really proper conversation about IVF um yeah sorry I think it's funny we've been talking in lots of people's homes for these podcasts and everybody's home is so much more significantly quiet than my own it's really annoying they're all tidier than my house and they're also more quiet it's really annoying

um sorry about that i'm so sorry about all that um well so we're talking about the importance of women not being aggressive i know that um do you need to take a pill no no i don't want to make anything bad i actually think it's great having all these sounds in the background i almost wonder why do we why do we cut them out because this is real life it's tremendous we probably won't cut my i actually feel very sad the only thing i don't want is for people to get get like thinking that i'm just sort of like i don't know that they're trying to like focus on you in amongst all this other so long as it's enough that we can hear us mainly then i'm fine with it too because i'm very able to have a conversation when lots of other stuff is going on because

you learn that skill don't you not just from having kids but from being a musician there's like there's often 10 different things happening obviously like you have to be able to be directive with your attention and um I know I did want to ask you was your mum a working mum I know we've heard about your dad but was your mum working no she wasn't um I mean she was a very it was a very traditional upbringing dad went to work you know mum stayed at home um and it was funny because I think even when I went into business that was sort of a bit alien to my mum um and I she's passed away she passed away about 16 years ago so I wonder what she would be what she would be thinking of me now well she saw I suppose all the beginning but what was she thinking when you yeah I think she was really proud yeah obviously you know things have evolved

and gone on and I think she would be really proud but probably also nervous for me at the same time because I think you know parents at one time it was only boys that grew up and went into business it's not something that girls did that's frighteningly recent actually I think yeah I mean I think so doesn't go back even I thought my grandma was a working mum but she wasn't really she stopped when she had my my mum and that was it they just stayed stayed at home and obviously absolutely nothing wrong with that but this is it's all about just having choice choice is the big empowering thing and i think there was a period though and i were probably talking you know 30 40 years ago there was a period where you know it was sort of frowned upon girls having careers and um you know having children and not maybe you know still carrying on

with their career yeah you know there was that There was that added guilt that there was a view that mums should stay at home and look after their children. Definitely. I think still now you can be punished for it. And also there's this weird flip thing where if you are someone that is seemingly, from the outside world, very successful at what you're doing, then probably you might call yourself a parent,

but you've probably got a fleet of nannies and you're probably not really doing much. We've got all these weird judgments that are made, not by me, I really don't think like that, but you hear it and you see it, and I think it's so bizarre. Why are we not just doing lots of thumbs up? I think people have to remember so much

that other people's destiny has got so little to do with what goes on in their life so why do you care if someone else is plus i think everybody's life setup is very different yeah massively i you know i'm very fortunate my husband works from home um but my mother-in-law lives too far away and obviously my mum's passed away um you know some people will have you know grandparents help out during the week and so I think everybody you know uses the resources that they have completely absolutely and everybody's just trying to make it all work actually and unless you're one of the people in that family life you probably don't really know what's going inside it so you probably step back from being too judgmental and nobody's getting it right all the time there's loads of

bits where it does go all a bit wonky and wobbly you know and it's it's that I suppose there's a sort of Instagram idea of how everything is where you can feel oh they've really nailed it and what about me and actually I I do think I do that to myself sometimes I sort of have a kind of mumsnet forum somewhere in my head where they're kind of stepping away saying, well, that's fine, it's fine if you want to do it like that, but personally I never would. But I think I've got better at recognising that no-one's really feeling like they've totally nailed it.

That whole judgement thing, it's so destructive. So destructive. You know, so destructive and negative and and like you say who knows what's going on with people's lives yeah well i think you know it does feel that maybe the tide has turned well i think from the next generation they might be a little bit better at thinking a bit about what goes on there's been so many things culturally whether it be happening to people in their real lives or through tvs and dramas and um stories and even my son my 11 year old son's assembly today was all about being kind and trying to um see people for who they really are rather than you know

stigmatizing them i think i do hope that they're going to be we place so much emphasis on kindness now with with kids i don't remember being told half as much to be kind when i was small maybe we were totally not i mean you know what i think the way schools are taking on that social responsibility as well yeah is really important it is you know i remember when i when i when we were looking for schools for scarlet in fact we've just been looking for a senior school and of course we always you know as parents know, as parents, we now say, well, what's your pastoral care? What's your policy on bullying? What's this? What's that? You know, my parents probably didn't ask that question. It just wasn't a word. You know, it wasn't a thing then. So I think schools, you know, it's heartening to see how that's changing yeah definitely yeah i think well i

think they're realizing that the more holistic support you can give individuals the better they tend to cope with life in all directions really and that actually there's lots of you know without sounding too kind of americanized but there's so many ways to succeed other than just you know making it an a or a 10 out of 10 or whatever it's it's it's about sort of growth of a person isn't it and and that whole collective thing of it or whatever. It's about sort of growth of a person, isn't it? And that whole collective thing of it taking a village to raise a person actually continues right the way through till... Actually, it's probably even later than I would have thought.

It's probably, like, in your 20s. I was actually thinking, because some people say, oh, it's going to be weird when the kids have left home, which obviously is a long way off, but I just feel like they're never going to have left. I think there's always going to be one here, like, coming back. I just can't picture that they'll all be off at one point but but yeah no it's kind of um i think we're having a slightly more protracted childhood in a way with that as well and people are taking a

little bit longer maybe to find their profession we don't have job for life in the same way we the previous generations did as well so i'm not everything casts a shadow that can also be quite overwhelming i mean i wonder I wonder for your daughter what she'll want to do when she's older because having a mother that's done so much must be awfully inspiring but also it can also make you feel like

what's the thing I do where's my thing it sounds like she's going to find it but it's just when your parents do the thing that they love and they do it in a way that's managed them see them through a lifetime it's you know yeah you don't stop worrying about them do you no i i think that um i've always told her that she can be whatever she wants to be you know there's no pressure on her from me to you know

continue in the business um i you know she's the great thing about kids is they change their their mind from one week to the next what they want to do yeah one minute i mean the the thing that she seems to be quite consistent with is she wants to be a pilot um so one minute she says a pilot the next minute is a teacher then she wants to be an artist you know she's um and I guess you just... I think we're much better at letting them find their own thing. Yeah, definitely. Rather than putting them under pressure to be a lawyer or a doctor

or any of those sort of perceived, you know, perfect... Yeah, stable jobs. Yeah, careers. And I think that, you know, when we were looking at schools for her, actually, it was finding an environment that we felt that she was going to be really happy in and that she you know she could flourish in and I think I think you know it's encouraging and you know I think as well what she ends up being

passionate about will be the thing that she's really good at yeah so that's the happy I'm hoping she will find her passion yeah I think that's my big hope for my kids too i think it's the one thing where you think that way every day doesn't feel like work in the same way does it if you're connected to your to your job in that way and i'm sure with what you do you know that is probably epitomizes that yeah children musical uh some of them but not i don't know if it's going to be their thing there's musical instruments everywhere yeah and the piano over there and guitars and yeah there's stuff everywhere but i actually have a feeling that it'll be something maybe maybe maybe a couple if that i mean they

definitely my eldest ones the eldest two got very different passions actually they like love music well the eldest loves music but i don't know if that's the thing he'll end up doing i think it was almost too obvious you know it's so obvious like my husband and i are both musicians as i said there's music everywhere in the house i think it's like it's a bit like they'll need to find something else as long as they find something that they love yes you'd be happy right oh yeah so happy for me although i think if they were one of those people that paints himself silver and stands in piccadilly circle i'd struggle with that yeah there's some things i'm like ideally not that or a pole dancer or something i don't know somebody's um i watched jay low at the super bowl doing her pole dancing i was pretty incredible

but then i guess she's not just doing that there's more to it than that um i the only other thing i want to ask you just a sort of silly thing really because i've had it sometimes where my working life and my sort of family life have have clashed in a way that isn't maybe ideal like when i don't know when the kids have come to festivals and ended up sort of wandering on stage halfway through my gig and things like that have you i did wonder if you'd ever sort of opened your work bag and found like toys next to or like the sort of potential new range of sex toys for the shop or something like that um doesn't have to be that literal oh right um i have opened like my notepad to a meeting to find scarlet has you know scrawled a funny face or something on on the notepad i don't think there's any been

anything it's not like if she doesn't really if there's things that you know she has to wait to she's older to see i suppose you're not kind of like hastily like screening off something or like going swerving her around a different she's visited me in the office a couple of times and uh you know um there might have been something a little bit obscure on the desk and so oh that's that's just you know you could have like one of those prohibition things you know where it goes from like a speakeasy and you press a button and like the table flips like a transformer yeah yeah yeah suddenly it's like it's all just like a normal office yeah no we've not had any embarrassing

moments oh that's good so I'm sure they're to come I mean they get more embarrassed don't they in their teens I think yeah it's one of the unexpected joys actually so i think i've got all that to come yeah but it's actually really fun i didn't realize how fun it would be to embarrass kids it's really i quite like it i mean that says more about me than than you oh thank you so much for uh talking to me and um you'll be happy to know it sounds like the grouts arrived while we've been chatting and you've got to take your pill and there's all these exciting exciting things happening in our lives. Such is life. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you. So that was Jacqueline Gold. What did you think? Do you see what I mean about her gentle voice? It's true, isn't it? But when I listen back, I can really hear the radical, radicalism of what she did. It's pretty incredible, isn't it? I mean, you know, as she summarized herself, she's had death threats, she's been

arrested, she's a bullet in the post. This woman has dealt with a lot. But it hasn't stopped her. And actually, now she's tackling menopausal women and their sexual selves again this is still pretty new pretty groundbreaking and maybe it shouldn't be maybe we should have come further but that is where we're at so you know we just got to deal with it and move forward and thank goodness there's women like Jacqueline around to think about these things and do something about it. Next week, I am joined by Julie Dean, who you may or may not know, she set up a company, which you probably do know, called the Cambridge Satchel Company.

And the fascinating thing about her is that she set it up in a number of months based on a spreadsheet of ideas she had, of various ideas that she thought could generate enough money to pay for her children's school fees. I think she had about various ideas that she thought could generate enough money to pay for her children's school fees she i think she had about three months to get started summer holidays to get on with it um and she didn't just do that she's kept growing the company uh it's getting bigger and bigger and she even advises the government on small businesses and helps

entrepreneurs so she's very very cool and we we chatted in the most quiet of all places, the British Library. So yes, come and join me next week. And thank you very much for joining me this week. And thank you to Jessie, who is sat next to me, who's been very, very quiet while I'm talking. Thank you for being so quiet, Jessie. Did you enjoy this week's podcast?

Yes. Very quiet, but sincere, yes. all right um see you next week have a good one take care of yourselves and see you soon lots of love bye Thank you. you