Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 81: Davina McCall

Episode Date: January 9, 2023

Davina McCall has been an energetic and enthusiatic presence on our TV screens for decades. As a teenager I loved watching her dating show Streetmate, and God's Gift which I adored. Then I was glued to the screen as she fronted Big Brother for 11 series between 2000 and 2010, and more recently she's presented ITV's emotional series Long Lost Family and of course the pure fun show The Masked Singer, which I did a couple of years ago and it is back again this month. Davina and I spoke in November when I was just back from Australia so I might have been a *little* woolly but hopefully not too bad. We talked about her difficult start in life when her mum left home, but she expalined how she had two wonderful female role models in her life - her grandmother, Pippy, and her stepmum, Gabby. She told me about the joy of having three older children, two of whom have left home, but explained you still have to be available at the drop of a hat, when they need you - something I found strangely comforting. We also spoke about her personal passion project - educating people about the menopause, which has seen her present two documentaries, and, along with Dr Naomi Potter, write a book called Menopausing, which has certainly helped take away any ignorance and fear I have about the subject. Finally we plotted to do something outrageous together one of these days... just to shock you, and our children! So, watch this space.Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Well, hello. Happy New Year. Here we are on the other side of Christmas and all of that stuff. Oh, when did we last speak? Was it November? Beginning of December, that's right. How have you been? How was everything? It's funny because

usually after indulging over Christmas, I get to this bit of the year and I'm like, yeah, I feel like being healthy, but this time I'm just like, I could have happily kept going with the cheese and the wine and all that. I was really quite into it all but no January's here kids are going back to school tomorrow um trying to get the house in order it's a slow process it's been very busy it's been really nice actually it's been pretty mellow we had everybody over to ours for Christmas we host it so the day went from sort of 15 during the day to an extra few in the evening and then just had a lot of family over here I popped off to Edinburgh to take part in their Hogmaney New Year's Eve celebrations last week did a gig there which was really fun it was outdoors

but I didn't get too cold so that's good and then New Year's Eve stayed in which I love and now back to work but it's all kind of nice which I love. And now back to work. It's all kind of nice things. I'm getting the new album sorted out. Got to do the artwork and the video for the new single this month. And yeah, just kind of get on with stuff, which includes more podcast episodes. But feeling fairly good about everything. I've recorded half of the series already.

And I've got all the other dates in the diary to record the other side I'm feeling pretty good feeling quite excited about this year but also quite sort of what's the word sober as I look ahead I don't feel like giddy about stuff I just feel like yep I can see the things I need to do I didn't make any new year's resolutions do you make any of them I only let myself down what's the point uh can't be bothered with that but yeah just kind of hoping to have a good one really I've got lots of nice gigs in the diary this year so I'm hoping they'll go well and I just want to just want to have a good year I'm really looking forward to introducing the new album to people. It's been the most protracted album process of my life

because I started writing it just before everything went tilted, just before the first lockdown. How crazy is that? It's a long time ago now. So, yeah, it's time to bring it out. Sounding good, actually. I'm pleased with it. Although it's not disco. So, you know, people might be like crushing me i don't know i hope not it can't all be disco balls

sometimes it's got to be something else right and doesn't mean you can't dance to bits of it definitely can but there's also a few bits where you might want to be a bit more mellow uh let's see anyway i'm now sat in mickey's room which is the quietest room in the house because at the moment it's the day before they all go back so you know risky recording this now but i decided to do it anyway so in here it's just me and titus our cat who looks very snoogly on mickey's little bed you don't want to hear any more about me uh i will tell you about my lovely guest to kick off the new series i spoke to davina mccall now davina is someone i first met when i was 16 and i did work experience at mtv and i remember being a little

bit starstruck because i used to watch god's gift at night now if you don't know what that is god's gift was one of davina's first presenting jobs that she did, where it was brilliant, actually. So she was already an MTV presenter, but she hosted this show where basically a load of blokes would kind of try and vie for attention from a woman. And then there was a kind of baying crowd of women who were heckling them. And they had to do like party tricks and jokes and dances and all this kind of thing and get voted down to the one that they decided was god's gift and that was the one that the girl would go out with at least i think that's what it was off my memory i i'm happy to be corrected but it was really good fun and i always really liked davina she seemed like a real girl's girl and

very cool and funny and smart and over over the years, our paths have crossed, whether it be through things like doing Million Pound Drop, which is a game show she hosted, which my mum and I participated in, or most recently when I did The Mars Singer, and I was an alien and then had to take my head off and reveal my little vis-a-vis to Davina and the other hosts. But Davina's someone that's often on my mind because I follow her and I'm always interested in what she has to say,

particularly around her conversations around menopause, which is something she's been really brilliantly open about and got lots of conversations going, not just here, but in Parliament too. She's campaigning for better access for women to HRT and just really being someone that's made the next chapter of, I mean, I'm 43, so this is sort of, you know, my sort of not-too-distant future,

and just making those conversations about menopause and demystifying it, giving a lot more clarity and also being a sort of very cool role model for how it might go ahead. Anyway, we spoke about lots and lots of stuff. She's led a very interesting life and is now a mother to three who are one in teens,

one mid-teens, one late-teens, and one in twenties, as you will hear. Anyway, I will leave you into Venus' capable hands. She's got a lot of wisdom to share. So thank you to her time. And mostly, thank you to you

for lending me ears and being back with me. I've got some really, really exciting guests this series. So thank you so much. You me ears and being back with me i've got some really really exciting guests this series so thank you so much you know i love my little podcast oh actually one thing before i go just to set the scene a little bit um and hopefully give you the opportunity to forgive me a bit if i'm a bit woolly when i spoke to davina i was very newly back from australia um as in about 24 hours back so my brain was a little all over the shop. So if I say some things that sound a little weird, that's why. The jet lag, I thought I'd escaped it, but I really, really didn't. Wow. Thank goodness for caffeine. And the other thing actually is

probably quite a nice thing to think of. So you can picture the scene is that when I spoke to Davina, it was actually on Zoom, but she was in her home, and on the back wall behind her when we were speaking were the three T-shirts that she'd worn each time she was about to have one of her three babies while she was presenting Big Brother. So that was really nice, and at one point she does talk about that, but it was just quite cool to be talking to her, and in the background there are these quite iconic T-shirts

that she wore when she was about to have her baby. I don't know about you, but whenever I watching big brother i always remember it's like davina being pregnant and these t-shirts about big mother and that kind of thing anyway that's setting the scene but yeah see you on the other side it's really lovely to talk to you and thank you very much for your time how are you how's everything yeah you know i've been kind of in just a bizarrely happy place i always think if um you're only as happy as your unhappiest child and i've got three kids you know what it's multiple kids. And to have all of them in a really good place all at the same time feels so nice.

And I always really enjoy these moments because they're always very short-lived. Someone will go into an issue or a problem or a relationship something or a dilemma. But then now we're all at an age where everybody piles in to help that one that's not feeling so good it's really nice oh that's a nice aspect i don't really think about that about when they get older that actually that kind of fight for attention isn't there in the same way so actually you're well you're a family that's more how old are your kids now how old are they so I've got Holly who's 21 and her best

friend Harriet who um we consider another member of our family um because she spends so much time with Holly so Holly and Harriet are 21 Chester's 16 and then Tilly, who's moved to Australia, is 19. And so Chester, you know, had, I mean, I'm not going to say what his worry was, but, you know, he was like going through something. And everybody gets on board. We're all messaging. Holly and Harriet are giving practical ideas and tips. You know, it's just so nice that everybody gangs together we are fiercely protective of each other it's it's a good thing well I guess as well you've been

when you raise them you're sort of laying the foundation for that kind of thing and that communication the whole way right so that's the whole intention is that when you're big you've got that lovely collective family that really talks to each other and keeps in touch with each other and cares about everything yeah I definitely think things like if one of them's performing somewhere we all go it's not just me you know or one of them's playing a game at the weekend anybody that can go goes you know it's a real um that is a point that I've been quite strict about that whatever anybody's doing we all support together yeah i totally agree with you how old are yours now oh so they go between 3 and 18 so 3 7 10 13 and 18 yeah great amazing

only makes me laugh out loud because um realise how much I've got to come. So it always makes me giggle. Yeah. But it's nice when you get to the stage where one of them is like that grown-up bit, you know, or at least, you know, young adult. I think that's really lovely. And how do you feel about one of your kids being in an Australian city that's so... Yeah, it's... I had such an interesting thing because I um I spoke to my

partner about her pre-leaving and everything in my makeup was saying you know go out for dinner as much as you can or like sit down have one-to-one, go and talk to her as much as you can in her bedroom, you know, go and do things together, spend as much time together as possible. And before she went, she didn't really want to spend any time with me at all. She was up in Newcastle seeing her sister, visiting other friends, saying goodbye to all her mates.

And I was talking to Michael and I was saying, like, I'm really struggling with this. And he said, okay, Davina, let's go back to when you were 19. And I said, yeah. And he said, what were you doing? And he said, I said, I was leaving home and moving into a room in someone's flat. And he said, how did you feel? I said, oh, my God, I was so excited. And he said, were you thinking about your parents' feelings about how they felt about you leaving? I was like, no. And and he went there you go she's just it's not even on her radar that you are pining and don't

tell her you're pining because it'll just make her feel bad about going and this is the most exciting thing she's ever done I was like that is the best advice ever yeah so I just sort of you know sucked it up and whenever she went I can't no I can't do that night or I can't do this I go okay well I'm listen I'm really happy you're having a good time and let's try and get together at least for one dinner before you go and she's like yeah yeah definitely and we did but it was just kind of funny you know it was just trying to be brave wept all the way back from the airport obviously but worked with pride I think pride happiness joy to see her kind of skip off look so happy and excited about this this new chapter

and where that might take her and it might bring her back here it might take her to another country in the world who knows so excited that's what I was gonna say actually that's the thing about it because I actually think if I know that with my parents as well they were quite good at letting me I left home at 18 I was really excited off I went and but then sometimes I felt like a cat that had been weaned a bit early so I kind of would come back do family holidays come and spend more time so I think then they come back they do come back yes and time and I also think if if you know if you do say okay I think what we'll probably do going forwards because we've we've

got kind of blended family as well we'll just say we're going to do one blended family every year and then I think I might take my kids somewhere for a few days on their own and he'll take his kids away for a few days on their own because they still need us on our own um even though they're all nearly adults um and then that'll be it because they'll all be wanting to go off and do their own thing and party with their own friends it's such a funny thing that you think oh you don't even want to come on holiday with us anymore oh my god yeah we're gonna have to think up really inventive holidays it was so funny we were talking about where should we go for our blended holiday this year and we both agreed on a beta because the

kids really want to go to a beta so so if they want to go then we'll we'll go with them and then we know they'll all come absolutely yeah no that's a good idea yeah and then you have a different shape of holiday as well don't you when they're a bit older and yeah and all that but also it's really nice to hear you say that you're feeling really happy because I was going to ask you about that because I was going to say from the outside looking in it looks like you're in a really great place like you look really gorgeous and radiant and happy and it's it's it's quite palpable actually it's nice um and you know it's funny it's felt like this for a while and um it is something that friends of mine have noticed and that you know if

somebody says how are you i just go god and i feel a bit guilty you know i just think and when you are in a nice place like in your you're settled i feel settled i think that's what it is settled and content when you're settled and content even difficult things feel okay it's so interesting I've had different times in my life where I've felt very um ill at ease or like something's missing or like I don't you know I can't quite grasp what it is but I'm just well my god when I was perimenopausal, I didn't know what it was, out of kilter. And you think, oh, I don't know what's going on. Then anything that adds onto that, if you get any superfluous problems that come on board, which obviously in life, all of us get hit by things. Sometimes we even get sideswiped by some

massive problem that we never even saw coming. If you're not grounded, it's going to hit you twice as hard. Yeah, that's very true. And so I suppose feeling more grounded and content now in my 50s means that, you know, in my 50s means that you know when things do come like tilly going you know i i am able to kind of rationalize or speak to someone and like they can help help guide me through it and i feel okay about it it's nice and it's really nice that is really nice and it's it's especially cool because i said i'd been in australia and when was there, I took your autobiography with me. So you've been, I've taken you to Sydney and Brisbane and Melbourne in the last couple of weeks. And when you wrote it, I think it was published in 2016.

And so you were looking ahead to your 50s. And so there are a few question marks about what you might do next. And it's just really cool because I think if you could go back to that you know the end of the book and put on the next chapter of all the things you've been getting on with and what life looks like now it's pretty exciting yeah it's a really I mean I'm so pleased I wrote that book firstly I think as a point of kind of historic interest for my kids kids or my great greatgreat-grandchildren, you know, for them to be able to go, look, this is what Grandma Davina was doing in 2016.

Can you imagine 2016? Well, that must have been like... And even for me to look back six years later, it's quite funny. You know, it's quite weird how much has changed. But yes, we should do a revised edition. Well, there's a lot of wisdom in that. Lessons I've learned since 2016. Even more lessons.

Because actually, there's loads of good advice in there. And funnily enough, right at the end, you do touch a little bit on menopause. And obviously now that's become something that's been a really proper conversation and I'm really happy about it because when I was I think probably about 10 years ago I remember someone talking about menopause and I thought I don't actually have very much information there for what lies ahead and everything you've done to highlight all of the stages of it and the good the bad

but also emphasize back to the good is so important and i'm really happy that i asked you something yes having heard about the conversation and you know learned a bit more obviously about it are you frightened about it or are you feeling better much better about it going forwards much better because I'm 43 and I I felt like there was this big sort of question mark for how it affected me what it was going to feel like and I remember thinking why is nobody talking about this it's this big thing that's sort of looming it's going to happen to everybody and it just felt like it was almost just not really spoken about and I don't think it's going to happen to everybody and it just felt like it was almost just not really spoken about and I don't think it was just menopause I think it was just like

being a woman with like in the public eye or um I don't know what I'm trying to say it was like you kind of just tipped over the edge of a hill and then um it all went a bit darker is what it kind of looked like to me um and I felt like as a woman in in our industry I would call our industry entertainment it was something that you were expected to just get through and then be great at the other side but nobody gave you a manual on how to do that exactly but I didn't I didn't even know that what the word perimenopause meant I didn't understand that menopause was the day you stopped bleeding and I also didn't understand that you didn't know that that was the day you stopped bleeding until you stopped bleeding for a year yeah yeah my god how come this is, this is page one stuff.

And it was like somebody was telling me something I'd never heard before, which they were. And then I think understanding that the reason why we all go a bit bonkers or 75% of us go a bit bonkers is because our hormones are dipping. And I just thought our hormones declined and I didn't I just thought our hormones declined I didn't realize that one day they're up the next day they're down the next day they're up and that's why it's very difficult to see see it via a blood test and why there are so many bizarre symptoms to it because oestrogen affects every single part of our bodies and so when we're lacking in oestrogen it affects every single part of our bodies and so when we're lacking in oestrogen it affects every single

part of our bodies so our symptoms can range from something from the top of our heads to our feet you know restless leg syndrome tinnitus in your ears so some really weird things like electric shocks there's some women get these sensations of electric shock. Heart palpitations. I had heart palpitations. I thought I was dying. I went to the doctors. And sure, look, you've got to get things like heart palpitations checked out. If you've got that and it is a symptom, then, you know, obviously it's worth getting looked at. But when I found out that it was a symptom, because when I got it checked out, it was nothing.

But I did slightly worry well what happens if it's something and you've slightly missed it but when I found out it was a symptom of the perimenopause I thought oh that's what it was then they didn't find anything because it was just that yeah and it made me feel much better so I think all of this knowledge is just making you feel a bit calmer thinking okay it's all right and that what was very important to me um when I started talking about it was to say to women like you who are coming towards it you know don't worry it's all going to be okay and in fact with the right knowledge and support and help it can be one of the greatest times of your life because sophie alice betster in 10 years time your life will look immeasurably different in terms of

children and child care and you know your children will be 13 14 your youngest yeah and be able to you'll be able to go out for dinner without getting a babysitter oh my god like amazing and you'll be just getting your va vava-voom, you know, all sorts of, you'll be thinking, I'm freer, my kids are a bit older, this is amazing. Yeah, that all sounds great. And I'm also happy as well that people feel that they can now talk about the symptoms without it being a secret thing.

It could just be, because I think for a long time, it felt like menopause was just sort of a time with like hot flashes and being a bit all over the place and a bit skittish um and I know that even it was a joke yes it was a bit of a joke about yeah yeah and I know that when my mum was experiencing her symptoms and she went to the doctor and she saw in this instance a male doctor and he just sort of said oh that's kind of what should be happening at your age. You know, best get on with it. And she said she sort of stood up, started to turn around, then went, actually, no, that doesn't sound like the right thing.

And made sure that she got her HRT, and she's like, I'm going to be on that for the rest of my days. It's brilliant. So I think what you're doing is great. Oh, well, thanks. I mean, I feel like there were two things. My missions were to make sure that people had the correct information so they could make a correct decision about their own bodies.

I am not pushing HRT in terms of a treatment for everybody. It's not right for everybody. Some people don't want to take it because it's not their lifestyle choice, and other people can't take it because of illness. But I did want, because I think it's something crazy like 10% of women who can take HRT do and it might be slightly marginally higher now but still a very very small percentage of women that could take HRT take it. Wow I didn't realize it was that low low and I think that is that is quite a largely down to fear of breast cancer and I I just wanted to open that conversation so people had all

the facts about HRT at their fingertips so they could make an informed decision yes exactly because there's no point making a decision about your health and whether you want to do something or not if you don't have the correct information yeah so that was really important and then also reframing what a perimenopausal woman looks like yeah and I'm definitely going to grow old as disgracefully as I possibly can well that hasn't changed from your book I like that about your intentions then too that's perfect exactly um well actually with with your book you talk a lot about about quite liking a little element of shocking behavior and I like the fact that that's something you like having a little flirt with in your life yes I mean it's always dangerous that it, it's always dangerous. It's always with me.

Really? And it's, yeah. And, you know, I often think about, I wonder what my final, like, I wonder if I'm ever going to do a Tootsie moment. Have you seen Tootsie, that film with Dustin Hoffman? Oh. It's quite an old film. And he dresses up as a woman. I think I've seen him a really long time ago. Yes, that's what I remember about it.

Yeah. And he walks down the stairs and he's dressed as a woman. And he goes, my name is not Tootsie. I am. And he takes off the wig. And he says, a man. I am blah, blah, blah. And everybody's like, oh.

I wonder what my Tootsie moment's going to be like. Am I going to do something? If you took your hair off and said, I'm a man, I would be quite, that would be quite a moment. Said, I am a man. It'd be so impressive. But I kind of keep thinking, like, I want to choose something really mega

or do something that's so bad or out in bad taste or something like that i'd be great wow the mind we can come up with something together yeah we should start writing a list i mean i did i talk about in the book about having this urge to flash people so when i when i when i used to when i used to work at models one when i used to work at models one um me and this girl called ellis and she was on the women's desk did you know ellis i actually met yeah yeah yeah so ellis on the on the girls desk and me i was on the men's desk and we had this very long office in World's End.

You probably remember it. And I would stand at the men's desk. I'd go, Ellie! And then I'd just flash my tits. I really didn't care who was there. And then she'd go, Divvy! And then, that was my nickname. She'd then flash her tits and I'd go, yay!

I mean, we were, like, awful. I mean, but quite funny. Like, people did think it was quite funny, but, I mean, nowadays, can you imagine nowadays? That's a cancelable offence, you know? Like, an objectionable, but everybody just thought, like,

oh, there's Alison Devina flashing her tits at each other again. I mean, it happened every day. And when I'm on a red carpet and they're all going dibby it reminds me davina it reminds me of ellis going debbie and i just really want to flash my tits so badly it's like given that my surname overwhelming feeling it feels like maybe yes your big shockable final act could involve me. It's now! You're just as Ellis Baxter. Oh my goodness.

I better not see you down the long corridor in a crowded place. Yeah, no, bad. It's just going to happen. All good, I can't kind of decide. I'll see you down the long corridor, a crowded place. Yeah, no, bad. It's just going to happen. Oh, good, I can't kind of decide. Oh, the world's seen far worse than our boobs. I think they could handle it. I'm not sure now.

I've had three kids. They're not what they were. I'd like to. Five in. Maybe I want to come up with a shockable act where the joke's not on me, really. Shock myself. But even possibly, like, that is the shock. Yeah.

Like, maybe that's the great thing. You know, when I'm 65, I'll just go, yeah. Like, ugh. There it is. But I want it to be something where people just go oh what's she done and then the next day everybody go oh my god what's she done let's go on her social media but I've got no more social media left because I've come off everything oh wow dramatic mic drop yeah keeping on topic uh with with my podcast and i just flashing boobs um what was going on in your life when you had your first baby what stage were you at with your career then so um everybody

everybody was with me um when i had my first baby i So I'm going to show you something which might trigger some memories. This t-shirt here that I'm pointing at. Hang on, where's the camera? Yeah, I can see that. That one in the middle is Holly. Yeah. This one on this side is Tilly. Yeah.

And this one here is Chester. So the middle one says Big Mother just for anybody that's listening and the other one says on the front on the other side of the Reloaded t-shirt it says Big Mother and then obviously on the back it says Reloaded and then on Chester's one it says the trilogy really it said Reloaded there because the Matrix matrix reloaded came out the year that tilly was born so big mother holly yeah was born in 2001 which was um just for context brian dowling oh yes yes um he won that year and i uh interviewed him enormously pregnant on stage. Amazing. And I had sort of Nenna Cherry to thank for that, really. Like, when she was doing Man Child,

I always thought, wow, she's so badass. I mean, I know Nenna a bit, and I mean, I knew her much better back then, but I just thought she's absolutely smashing it for pregnant women. Definitely. There was a time before Nenna where pregnant women used to hide away,

have their babies, and then come back suddenly, just as they were before, pretending that they hadn't had a baby. Yeah. And she was like a trailblazer, really, I think, in so many ways. Yeah, I agree.

As a sort of powerful woman, I mean, Buffalo's dance was on i mean i love that album raw like sushi so she was on on top of the pops very pregnant with buffalo stance and then when she did man child man child the video director had gone around for a meeting to see her and she'd opened the door with her newborn baby over one shoulder and her hair in a towel and he was like that's it that's the video so that's why this is it yeah but I thought she was so good and her daughter who was on the swing so I I went out with Nenna's um uh the the dad of her first first daughter Naima so for about five or six years and she was a lovely girl

and she was in it as well she was swinging on the swing Naima oh that's really cool I mean she was mega

Nana I mean still is you know she's just so freaking cool but anyway so I thought look

if Nana can do it I I can definitely do it. I can definitely present a TV series pregnant. And then it became a thing. Then it was kind of like every series, they were like, are you pregnant again? So Holly was series one. What was interesting for me, though, Sophie, is that I have, I mean, a bit like you, I think, I just love my job. I love doing what I do. I mean, a bit like you, I think. I just love my job. I love doing what I do. I love presenting.

I feel like I've learnt a lot over the years. By the time I had Holly, I'd been in the business for ten years and I felt quite sort of secure in what I was doing and I'd learnt a lot. I felt like I was good. I had places I wanted to go, you know, programmes I wanted to present. I had ambition. Not a kind of, I'll stand I was good. I had places I wanted to go, you know, programmes I wanted to present. I had ambition.

Not a kind of, I'll stand on your head to get past you and ruin your career to further mine, but just I wanted to do well. And I had Holly, and I held her in my arms, and I thought, fuck, I never want to work again. I just want to look at you and not do anything ever again. Never leave the house. I just want to hug you, feed you, change you, put you to bed, wake up and do it all again.

It was the best thing ever. I'd spent my whole life since I was 10 years old wanting to have a baby and having Holly was number one the greatest thing until I had to leave that I'd ever done like it was the cleverest the most miraculous the most beautiful moving and life-changing thing I'd ever done and then I thought god how am I ever going to want to work again I'd been working six days a week minimum 17 hour days almost every day with tons of energy left I loved my job and then I was like I'm working three days a week maximum um you know um and that's how it stayed for quite a few years.

You know, I did maybe like a day at home on and off the phone a bit, you know, doing bits and bobs. But really, I was very, very lucky because Big Brother, you know, was a Friday night. Yeah. And then they did the odd show on Saturday. So I could do those as two days and then maybe another day of shooting or whatever I had to do, press or whatever, on the third day or Garnier,

like I had been working with them for a while. And so I could kind of mix and match. And Big Brother just became like my day job. I was so lucky to have that when I was having babies yeah that's amazing and like I really can remember the um the fact that you yeah we have the babies quite regularly and actually I remember at one point my mum said to me she pointed at the tv and she went she's she's planning the babies around big brother and she's worked out that she had she said look she always watch she's always having them in September oh my god that is shut up because that is exactly what i was doing

i used to say to matthew we can't get pregnant before january because if i do that i'll somebody else will present the final and over my dead body Wow. Wow. So you were literally like, look at the calendar. This is the window. That's amazing. I mean, to give us credit where credit's due, like we might not still be married now, but by God, we were good with like that. We were brilliant at making babies. That is brilliant.

And also I'm so impressed with the timeframe. It just was like, yep, that's the bit. Because if I have that then, then I can have the bit where I have my maternity and then I can come back and then I'll do the final. Yes. Amazing. But that's so funny that your mum clocked that. Yeah, maybe because she's kind of a bit like that too.

She'd be like working out things. I don't know, maybe not. Actually, I say that. I don't think that is true because I don't think she did play when she had my brother, but still, she recognised it and applauded it. I love that. I really love that. Yeah.

That's exactly because I love that programme and I did feel like it was mine for all those years at Channel 4 and I really... The idea of even letting somebody else present it was so alien to me that I just thought, so if I missed the window and I didn't get pregnant, which I never did,

but if I had missed the window, I'd wait until the next year. I mean, that's how dedicated I was to that programme. But I get that, and it worked. And actually, knowing your impish, you know, smile you had when you're talking about sort of shocking behaviour and a little bit of, like, what might happen next. I mean, Big Brother, that's, like,

that taps into all of that, right? Like, so much fun, so much mischief. Yes. Yeah. And, you know, you can talk to people. I could ask people in Big Brother interviews things that I would never ask anybody else about if they'd had sex. I mean, these are people that I'd literally only met

when they came out of the house. I'd be asking them such personal questions and pulling them up about things. And I loved it so much. It was the greatest greatest opportunity and um probably the the show that I would be most recognized for still now yeah even all those years later yes no it was brilliant and really brilliant tv and so I'm thinking about you with your with your babies and with your book you were really beautifully open about your childhood and I wondered how soon into having a baby you I mean

what impact did it have on how you wanted to raise your children come you know having such a different childhood I mean we can talk about as much as you want. I think the big thing for me is that I was raised, really, the majority of the time by two exceptional women in my grandmother, Pippi, who was an absolute force of nature and very loving and cuddly and all cooking, all singing, all dancing, quite emotional. She's a proper girl power woman you know she mowed the lawn in her petticoat she did diy she fixed things she brought three children up in the war and then took me on and brought me up for um 10 years you know she was she was amazing and then my stepmom gab who's still like an amazing parent to me

because both my biological parents have died and she and I weirdly have got even closer, I think, since that's happened. It's been really lovely, but she's been a very, very positive force in mine and my children's lives, you know, which has been so lovely. So I had two really strong role models there,

but my biological mother was not a good role model. children's lives you know which has been so lovely so I had two really strong role models there but my biological mother was not a good role model but thankfully because of those other two women I could draw on their maternal experience and know that I would want to put that into my children's lives but my sister who was brought up solely in France with her grandparents but with my mother largely as well never had children because she just didn't feel that she had the capability having been brought up in that atmosphere to to look after a child she did get pregnant once. And then she lost that baby. And she felt that that was a sign, you know, that she, that like, maybe it just wouldn't happen for her. And it never did. And I can understand, you know, where that comes from. Because actually, when I did get

pregnant, I was very, very worried. And then I think I became a little bit of an anxious first-time parent so you know I was one of those um follow the book the Gina Ford um not with the light in the bedroom or anything but you know the bed at this time bed at that time make sure that they're settled calm and then about six months in I was like I just can't do it anymore. I can't. I've got to throw the book away and just do what feels right because I'm making myself and this baby miserable. So we just sort of started just trying to, you know, I just wanted to try and listen to Holly and tell, like, what she was telling me rather than what Gina Ford was telling me

she was telling me. Not trying to slag off Gina Ford because it was a special way of parenting back then and um I was given that you know she did help lots of yeah she did help lots of women and then the second and third babies obviously by that point you kind of know what you're doing and you know what's worked before and you tweak it for each different child's personality and what they need and I can't tell you Sophie how much I'm looking forward to having grandchildren yeah I feel like I know because I do you feel that like you learn every time you have a child you learn so much and then I feel like I've got a lot to give not my not my daughter or my son because I'm going to let them do whatever they feel is right with their child it's not up to me what they do but if they ask

my opinion I will offer it but not if they don't I definitely don't want to be that kind of parent but I could definitely can do some great stuff with with my grandkids oh yeah I'd love to maybe have a bit more time to do yeah such a good one isn't it and especially having had such an amazing relationship with my granny yes exactly so you've got that template and I think also it's just I think there's something you said I read somewhere where you said that family for you felt like safety and sanctuary. And I thought, oh my goodness, that really resonated with me. I'd never thought of that word before, but that's exactly the same for me. And I think that the continuation of it and seeing family grow

and new generations and all the higgledy-piggledy ages you get when you all get together, I sort of live for that stuff, really. It makes me happy and it makes me feel safe and I think you know it's a it's a give and take thing isn't it because it makes you feel safe and you provide an environment where you make your kids feel safe um and the other thing that I think is um really interesting that I've been thinking about a lot is that we protect our children from so much nowadays. But resilience is one of the other things that I feel has made me. And I always think as much as I want to protect my children from anything going wrong, the times when my life has gone wrong have been the times that I've learned the most. Yeah, that's quite tricky that one, isn't it it with your kids me it's so hard it is because you know it's so hard

and your life experiences you say they make you who you are and the fact that you're able to sit here now and say I feel really good I can recognize what is good but then you've gone through all the things and that's what's made you get to that point so it's like ah how do I how do I navigate that for my kids? Quite tricky, isn't it? I mean, I suppose you've just got to kind of let them do what they do and keep the communication open and kind of hope for the best, really. I suppose, and through everything you've experienced,

you've always had good relationships and safe people to go to, I suppose. So you can still have that. Always. I mean, my grandmother was always a safe place. And my stepmom's always been a very, very safe place as well and continues to be and is for my kids. And, you know, what's super nice is my daughter's gone over to Australia and it sounds like, oh, my God, what's she done? But she's living with my sister, my little sister out there who moved out there 10 years ago or whatever and she's she's living

with her so she's got a nice kind of comfortable start to her trip over there and and we'll kind of start moving around once she feels settled but I'm very lucky um I think that we do have a close family it's interesting I am recently I've met a few people who talk about being estranged from various family members and I'm always kind of trying to encourage them to reach out because I've also recently been to a couple of things where at someone's wake you know you find out that two people haven't spoken for 30 years and it would be over someone calling their child the same name in a family. And then you think, really, was it worth not talking for 30 years about that? Yeah.

Just have a chat and see if you can meet up and have a coffee about it or something. Because I guess the one thing that you do become very aware of after 50 is that probably half your life is over and possibly more than half your life is over. I really want to do something with this next half. Yeah. And make sure that I am correcting the mistakes of my life before. So I think healing old wounds is a really good way of doing that. Well, I suppose as well, when people do have those family grudges that have gone on for ages, I think it takes a lot of energy to maintain that,

even if the decision is just not speaking to someone. It's almost like a fire you have to keep putting logs on. It's like you have to keep that because you've got the feelings. So true. You've got the love for the old friend or the relative, but you're having to keep active like, no, that's why I'm not speaking to that person and I'm going to put another log on that fire because if the fire goes out then

all we've got is the silence of not speaking and that's quite that can be quite a big thing to confront can't it and plus when relationships go past the point you can't go back and you have to be completely at peace like if that if that's how that is am I definitely okay with that although you know I was I was I was estranged from my mother when she died um um and I really looked deep into that and looked into how do I feel about that and how will I feel if she dies which she did or when she dies I knew she had terminal cancer and how will I feel if I don't go and visit her and I and I talked to myself a lot about it my big sister talked we talked we talked about it a lot together and we both decided that we were at

peace with that decision and it wasn't it wasn't a vindictive um choice we made it was a choice for us and our mental well-being um and it was it was the right choice in retrospect yeah um but no i think those questions yes i agree with that you have to be very at peace with all those things and i mean i guess that's the kind of thing you're learning, as you say, as you get older anyway. Just one of the most sad emotions to feel is regret because it can really calcify. So I think you have to be very, as you say,

it's absolutely fine to make decisions that take out things that, I suppose we'd call it like toxic elements or things that make you feel bad about yourself or compromised. But also just make sure you're very at peace with all of those doors you close because sometimes you don't get a chance to open them again. But I mean, blimey, everybody's got about so many things because there can be things that you regret saying no to or things that you regret not doing or places that you regret not going to if you had the opportunity. And again, after 50, it's quite interesting how your mindset goes from just say yes. You know, it goes from like, oh, I'm not sure. I don't know if I want to do that.

I'm a bit nervous about doing that. You just go, yeah, I'd love to do that. Yes, I'd like to try that. You know, you're always thinking, what can I what can I do I don't definitely don't want any regrets on I want to definitely try try everything go everywhere well that's great and I mean when when did your sort of ambition and all that kind of after you had that bit where you stared at your baby that's it yeah when does it when did you start to kind of have it all blossom? I definitely felt for me it was around my children growing up. And I think when my eldest got to, so maybe five years ago,

when my eldest got to about 16, let's say, and she could babysit, you know, Chester and Tilly for a night. They could all hang out and I wouldn't feel guilty they'd be having a lovely time and then a couple of years later when she was 18 you know I could even consider going away for a night and um leaving her with the kids and they'd actually have a great time as long as I made sure that there was food and sustenance and uh there was like I remember thinking oh wow kind of um and and in terms of it wasn't even so much I want to go away and see friends it was like god I could work late in London stay overnight and start work earlier the next morning and I don't have to miss that job

or I don't have to come all the way home and get two hours sleep in order to come back to work the next day I can say yes to that and I know people might think oh my god she's why would you want to do work instead of being with your kids but I'm with my kids a lot um and in fact because they um obviously they were all at school and um but you know in the school holidays I I again was extremely lucky because I was self-employed I could take school holidays off so that would kind of end up being about you know four or five months a year yeah being taken off just in school holidays just because somebody needed to be there for the kids to drive them around or take them to people's houses or mates' houses or play dates. And so holidays were quite sacrosanct. So even now, Chester's a bit more independent and he's with friends quite a lot of the time and going out and

stuff like that. Even I can do a few days work, which if I want to, in the holidays. Even I can do a few days' work, which if I want to, in the holidays. So it's kind of really an interesting, it's an interesting time. Plus also you need the work for yourself, don't you? You don't want to just, if that's something that's important to you, you don't want to shut those things away because it's important to have your own thing. Yeah, I mean, it keeps my mind active. I like the way that it makes me feel.

I feel useful. I feel like I have a purpose um interestingly sometimes when I don't work say in the summer so last summer I took 10 weeks off um because it was the last summer that me Holly and Tilly and Chester would all have together because Holly's got placements next year she's going to be a dietician. Oh, wow. And she's in hospital next summer, all next summer. And Tilly's going to be in Australia. So it's just me and Chester and my partner and his sons. So I was like, this is the last summer we will all be together for a while, I think.

So let's really make the most of it. But at the end of the 10 weeks, I was like, OK, I'm ready to go back to work. I'm really ready. Yeah, yeah, I'd be like that too. But did you always want to be a mum? Was it always something you thought you'd do? Always. Oh, my God, I can't remember a time

when I wasn't absolutely gasping to be a mother. And I had all these things in place. If I couldn't have children, I would have definitely looked at adoption. I would have definitely looked at surrogacy. I thought all of that through. I mean, I was such a planner. And if I can't do that, I'm going to do this. And if I do that, I can't do this, blah, blah, blah.

So it was always part of my game plan. I used to present a show before I got pregnant called Street Mate, and we'd just run around the streets of university towns... I love Street Mate. ...to find single people. Yeah. That was good. And they used to do compilation tapes

that they'd show at the Christmas party of me stopping everything while I'm running around to talk to babies and dogs yeah so it would be like I'd be running down the street and I'd go baby wait everybody stop oh my god how old's your baby oh it's so cute like for ages they had cuts of like me and 20 babies all being cut together. It was so funny. So yes, and I'm still famous now. If we go into a restaurant, I'll say to the kids, if I coo at that mum enough, do you think she'll let me hold her baby?

And if I coo enough at a mum, she'll go, can we get a picture of you and our baby? I go, oh yeah, of course. But what they don't know is that I've groomed them the whole way through their meal to let me hold their baby. Yeah, I think we're kind of a similar couple, you and I. I love a baby too. I think we are. I think we are.

Yeah, I think so too. And when I travel without the kids, I think people must think, oh, that lady really loves, she really wants a baby because I just look at every small person, I'm like, oh, oh. And they probably think, oh, yeah, she's longing.

And I'm like, I just want to hold your baby just for a while. Yeah, definitely. It's a good thing. They are gorgeous though. I love little babies so much. Yeah. Oh. They're fun. But on the street, mate, you can't really. They're magical. they are gorgeous though I love little babies so much yeah oh they're fun but on street mate

you can't really something magical set them up with another baby on street mate baby mate set up play dates I'd quite like to

I'd quite like to do mature mate yeah where I run round where I run run round the streets and find somebody you know 45 plus plus and set them up with someone. Yeah, that'd be perfect.

That's a good idea. I'm going to suggest that. Yeah, into the dictaphone. The other program I adored was God's Gift. I used to love God's Gift. Oh. That was a good program. So funny.

That was really funny. So inappropriate. So when was that on? That was... Oh. It was a good program. So funny. That was really funny. So inappropriate. So when was that on? That was... Oh. It was on in the middle... That would have been 94? 95?

Yeah. So I was like 15, 16. And it was on on a Wednesday night. Wednesday night at midnight. And then repeated at four o'clock in the morning on a Saturday night. That would have been the one I would have caught. I was still awake. My mum put a black and white telly in my bedroom.

So funny. I used to watch it all the time. Yeah, I loved it. It's really good. Amazing. Oh, those were the days. In fact, I've probably bored you with this before, but it must have been around that time that I met you,

very briefly, when I was 16, and I did work experience at MTV. And I remember you very well, because you looked very glamorous, and you were very smiley. And you had your dog with you, which I think must have been... Oh, Rosie.

Rosie, yes. Yeah, I remember that very well, because I was like, really excited to see you. It was a good thing. Oh, that's so funny. Isn't that? I know. Well, you mentioned you're a planner.

What have you got planned at the moment? What's your current things you're up to? What are you looking ahead to do? So next year, we are looking at doing a documentary on the pill. Ah, okay. That would be fascinating. There are so many different types of pill. I was going to say.

And different types of progesterone, progestins. And I don't know what I'm talking about, but I guess, like, everybody will come on a journey with me while I learn. But it's interesting because, you know, we all take the pill willy-nilly but in fact hrt is safer than the pill um on paper and everybody treats hrt like it's um their nemesis but in fact you know we need to know more about the pill that we i took personally without asking any questions for 20 years same here and i don't want to stop women taking the pill um at all i

don't want to sort of trigger trigger a million pregnancies but um i do want us to understand that if you are feeling um that your skin's breaking out or you're feeling depressed or that there are other options open to you and that you could maybe swap over and try different brands or types and go into the science of it and find out where it's made and what it's... Anyway, so that would be interesting. That's such a good idea.

Well, also, I think what's really good about that is that the age where, I don't know, you'll find out in your research, the age where most women first ask for the pill is a time when the idea of sitting in a doctor's office and asking for it is quite, you feel very self-conscious anyway. So that window, you don't feel like it's really for you to get any information about anything deeper than just, I need this prescription, I'm trying to be careful and I just want to get out out get my pill so that I know that I'm doing the right thing by me and actually you only really learn about all the fallout and the emotions and how it could affect your mood and all these things let alone

as you said like breakouts other stuff by anecdotally just swapping stories with your girlfriends rather than sitting in the doctor's office and understanding so what's the difference between this one and this one and I'm a bit prone to this and you don't even know what to ask you just you're quite young when you go in usually I think well I was anyway like 17 18 even as a parent as a parent you know I I didn't know what to ask or um you know for my daughters so I think it is it is useful to just be armed with information and I'm sure that GPs will all be sort of sighing, oh, God, she's off again. But I'm not trying to make life more complicated.

I'm trying to make it easier. Yeah, no, I think that the GPs would probably be happy. Information is good. And people who know what have already done a bit of research and worked out what's going to work for them or what things mean for them. Exactly. It's helpful.

Yeah, it is helpful. Yes. So I'm doing that. I'm doing long lost family oh yes lovely which I love yes I'm filming that at the moment and um Masked Singer is out in January um so you know the Masked Singer um is on now yep yep and that was a crazy experience the Masked Singer is on now. Yeah, yeah. And that was a crazy experience, The Masked Singer, when I did that. Oh, my God, of course. Don't worry if you've forgotten. I've seen you since then. Yeah, it was...

No, absolutely brilliant. I have to say I did guess. Once I'd got you, I was like, of course course of course i absolutely don't even know what i was thinking i kind of embarrassed myself a little bit with that because i hadn't given a lot of thought to so i was doing the song i sang a duolipa song don't stop now and on the day of the recording the voice coach said to me, why don't you, do you want to, it describes your voice a little bit,

why don't you put a little bit more like, flatten your vowels. So I took this very literally and did a sort of, I don't know, hybrid Cockney strange accent and when I got, when I got home,

I said to the kids, I was going to keep it a surprise that I'd done the Mars Singer, but then I went out on the first episode and I'm like, there's not a whole lot of tension here. So I said to them, oh, I did the Mars Singer and I told them I'd gone out. And then they said, well, what did you sing? And I sang a bit in the kitchen. They were like, why did you sing it like that?

So I did this, I did a full 180. Even now, whenever I hear that song and I'm out, I did a full 180. Even now, whenever I hear that song and I'm out, I'm just like, it's mocking me. But that was like Adam Garcia,

who's a tap dancer. He was on The Masked Dancer. Oh yeah. And he, he was like, um, dancing,

not doing tap and taps is, like, but obviously the minute he did tap, we all know who he was. Right. So it was really funny. I was like, oh my God. It's a fun programme though. And the team's lovely. The team is really, really lovely.

They're so great, aren't they? Yes, they really are. And everybody's having fun. It's like a very upbeat, nice atmosphere. It's such an upbeat show yeah i love being part of it so plus i got out of it a hoodie that says don't talk to me which is a great hoodie yeah it's just a hoodie yeah it's a good one to have so that's good oh and i wanted to ask you about your fitness because it's been such a big part of your life and I wondered what role it plays in your how often do

you go and work out is it a daily thing yeah so I try and work out no um who's got time for that um I'm spending too many plates Sophie um but I do try and work out like a minimum of three times a week but like I try and have active rest days so say for example I went to Shoreditch today and they were like do you want to get a car and I said no I want to go by tube so I went by tube to Liverpool Street and whenever I see a an escalator I run up the escalator and then when I got to Liverpool Street I did a brisk 15 minute walk to the place I was going to brisk 15 minute walk back to the tube you know run down the escalator I just try and be active wherever I go because I always think look this might not be in a gym but it's certainly

exercise if I was doing this on a treadmill yeah you know these are these are this is good calories I'm burning here I can really and cardio running up the escalator then I lift up a passenger yeah then while I'm on the tube I just do some sit-ups like one of those you know on those tiktok things where somebody gets up and sort of starts sliding around the pole on that New York subway and they exactly you know I do one of those kind of uh dances um no I don't but I just I try and be active on my rest days yeah because it is all exercise right yes and I have a spring in my step um at the moment and I I can't quite put my finger on it but I am you know I'm I'm bouncy so exercise feels nice I'm enjoying it I mean I go to a spin class Sophie and it's like um being in a nightclub which I love because I love loud dance music

on a bicycle yeah I've never done a spin it's great i'd probably quite like that oh god you fucking love it it's so i'm i'm taking you you've got to come down and stay with me in tunbridge wells i've got the best spin class ever in tunbridge wells you're coming okay i'm there and i'll bring all children amazing okay i might leave the kids we've got room for everyone oh i see in your house i thought you meant the spin class i was like abandon get my three-year-old on the bike i mean they probably quite enjoy it to be fair amazing we could get stabilizers on their spin bike exactly yeah um no i should definitely try a bit of spin. I think that sounds good. I think the sound of the club music going very fast. Yeah, it's so much fun.

And, you know, I always say to people in terms of exercise, I've got a fitness platform called Own Your Goals to Venus. So if anybody wants to come and start their journey, we've got everything from, like, absolute beginners, but we've got over 1,000 workouts on there. But what I love about it is there's 16 different trainers and they all teach completely differently so I did a class with Fitz the other day he's 65 and we did weight training together and he broke me he was amazing but I don't weight train very often and I need to because my muscle tone is depleting rapidly

and then you've got somebody like Daniel who does drum and bass boxing, you know, again, to music, drum and bass. I love it. He is so motivating. Faye does dance classes. I did a dance class with her the other day. So it's like there's bar, there's a bit of everything. So find what you like and then do that. Don't make yourself do, you know i it doesn't feel right now at my age to do too hardcore hit it's not i'm not very good at and i just think it's too quick and i'm gonna injure myself that's what it feels like so i think okay you know find other things that i enjoy and spin weights dancing boxing to drum and bass that's what i I love. So that's what I do. Okay, that's good advice.

Own your goals. And I like the idea of finding different things that work for you. I kind of need to get back on the wagon. I've fallen off it a little bit. I think your active rest days are my exercise. That's basically it. Exercise days. Yes.

But you have got a lot of spring, and that is exercise. days yes but you have got a lot of offspring and that is exercise I think it's just giving myself a bit of time to prioritize fitness as part I think yes I've kind of I used to and then I've filled in those gaps with other things and I need to kind of clear some room again because I think it's really good for my head is it is it is it cake it's cake. Have you filled in the gaps with cake? That would be good, but no, not so much cake. I do like cake, though. It's all good. That's why we interviewed Mary Berry the other day,

because she made us cake, so that was good. Oh, what? Yeah, bring in the cake. Well, I'm conscious of your time, so just as my final question to you, I suppose I just wanted to ask, now that you're in this chapter where your kids are at the stage they're at, how does it feel when you get to that bit? And is it nice to sort of recognise that you're in this bit where they are all starting to branch off

and you are kind of in this new spring. What's quite nice is that they do branch off, but you do then realise that they never leave you for good. Unless, obviously, as we spoke about earlier, there's some catastrophic falling out. And then if it's possible to redeem it, then redeem it. And if it's not to redeem it then redeem it and if it's not then don't but um they they go but they are always around so my daughter and you'll find with each child there's something different that you bond over so my daughter

Tilly and I she makes me laugh so much um my daughter Holly and I are really into our music she's going out with a dj we're obsessed like she keeps sending me videos of her going out clubbing with him and then he's djing at this really cool club and then he's released a bit of vinyl and she's sending me you know we're bonding in that arena and then me and chester as he's got a bit older we've really bonded over going to Arsenal matches. So they are going, but I have a little special thing with each of my kids. And it's different for all of them. And they each have a special thing that just me and them do. And I really like that.

So you get a bit of freedom, but never more freedom than you can handle they're always there yeah um but they just don't need you in the same way but when they need you they really need you and they need you right then and there for quite a long time and then they just don't call you again for a few days yeah but you need to be available when they need you yeah um but parenting um Michael said you know the other day that parenting two boys has been like literally the best thing he's ever done and I would agree like having kids for me has been the greatest adventure and continues to be and will continue to be for the rest of their lives and my life you know know, they'll outlive me, hopefully. So, yeah, it's a trip.

But we're enjoying this part of our journey so much. It's really good. That's really lovely. And I think that is really perfect advice and also really nice to hear someone speak so positively about parenting. I really like that very much and i'm thinking that because we've been so positive this big shocking act that we're going to do i think we should check with them that they're cool with it as well just so yeah okay yeah just

so the mic doesn't my kids know me yeah my kids know me they know it's coming well in that case maybe we can't do the boob thing because they're probably expecting that i think it might have to be a bit more adventurous it's got to be shocking for them too right exactly and that just won't do it yeah no i'll ping some ideas over to you i'll get cracking on some yes isn't that brilliant how brilliant Davina I love how smart she is about stuff but also her energy one of those people that just makes you kind of want to get have a bit more get up and go and obviously she's got all her fitness stuff that she does and her fitness um platform but my words she definitely you know walks the walk as well as talk the talk.

So loads of energy and it's quite infectious. So yeah, I really love talking to her and a lot of what she said really stayed with me. Funny enough, in the build up to chatting to her, because I knew I was going to be coming straight back from Australia, I took with me her autobiography, which I think she published in 2017. So, you know, life has moved on since then,

not least the fact that she was still with her husband at that time. So, you know, some pretty seismic changes. But I would really recommend it because she's really been through a lot and has lots of takeaway lessons from each thing that she's gone through. So I thought that was really, really cool. And hopefully you got a little bit of that from our chat too yes and um i just can't wait to show you the show with you the rest of the series it's a nice feeling actually because um there are some people i've spoken to this series that i wanted to speak to for a little while so yeah looking

forward to sharing that with you and please do keep your suggestions coming in. I know I always say it, but it really is valuable. And what else? I suppose just try and, you know, stay chipper. The beginning of January can be a bit, can't it? Especially as I speak to you today, it's only blooming. It's like 4.50. It's pitch black outside. It's been raining all day.

It's not the most kind of exciting day, really. Not the most exciting time of year. But there's still lots of reasons to be cheerful so just sending you lots of love really and hoping you've got a few things on the horizon that are exciting and yeah trying to think what we've got coming up recently you know oh actually we did have a really lovely thing over the weekend it was mickey's fourth birthday He's big boy four now. I guess that means I haven't really got any little bubbers in the house anymore, have I? I mean, I know four's not exactly adulthood, but still. I mean, this year he's going to start school.

That's kind of end of an era, isn't it? I won't have any more babies or any nursery. Wow. I'm going to try and enjoy this next couple of terms while he's still there, because it's still so cute. Anyway, it's quite nice as well. There's bits of him growing up and bits of me all my babies grow up it's just quite nice to be honest with you not least the sleeping not gonna lie mickey was such a terrible sleeper it's quite nice that

that's nothing in the past touch wood and all that anyway enough of my ramblings titus still sleeps i'm still snuggling mickey's room i better go downstairs and face the masses and i will see you next week. Lots of love and thanks for coming back to me. Bye. Thank you.