Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 86: Anna Haugh

Episode Date: February 13, 2023

Anna Haugh is an Irish chef at the top of her game, who runs her own restaurants in Chelsea and Dublin, and who you may know as one of the judges on Masterchef and as a regular on Saturday Kitchen. It was on Saturday Kitchen last year that I first met Anna, when her baby boy Oisin was just 8 weeks old. I was struck by her absolute joy in motherhood and when we spoke recently I learned how Oisin was a much longed for IVF baby.  Anna told me she is generally good at appreciating the here and now, and about the thrill that she gets to this day when she walks past her little boy’s blue coat hanging in the hallway, reminding her that she is now a mum.  Anna also told me how much she has always loved her stepson Henry, now 18, who she first met when he was 11, and how it was Henry who chose her little son's first and middle names.She also shared that she may be only 5ft 4, but she studied body language to learn how to give direction in kitchens where she’s often surrounded by men who are all physically much bigger than her, without confrontation. Her top tip is that you own the space where you stand, no matter how tall or short you are. And she really believes in kindness in the kitchen.I love Anna’s ability to see the positive side of life and the way her personality comes out in the atmosphere of her restaurant and on screen. I also love the sound of the cake-loving little Oisin!Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Si vous faites vos achats tout en travaillant, en mangeant ou même en écoutant ce balado, alors vous connaissez et aimez l'excitation du magasinage. Mais avez-vous ce frisson d'obtenir le meilleur deal? Les membres de Rakuten, eux, oui. Ils magasinent les marques qu'ils aiment et font d'importantes économies, en plus des remises en argent. Et vous pouvez aussi commencer à gagner des remises en argent dans vos magasins préférés, comme Old Navy, Best Buy et Expedia, et même cumuler les ventes et les remises en argent dans vos magasins préférés comme Old Navy, Best Buy et Expedia. Et même cumulez les ventes et les remises en argent.

C'est facile à utiliser et vous obtenez vos remises par PayPal ou par chèque. L'idée est simple. Les magasins paient Rakuten pour leur envoyer des gens magasinés. Et Rakuten partage l'argent avec vous sous forme de remise. Téléchargez l'application gratuite Rakuten et ne manquez jamais un bon deal. Ou allez sur rakuten.ca pour en avoir plus pour votre argent. C'est R-A-K-U-T-E-N. Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions.

I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hey, it's Sunday morning and well actually my voice doesn't feel too tired but I thought it might be more tired because I didn't go to bed till three o'clock in the morning last night. didn't go to bed till three o'clock in the morning last night I know so well just unexpected um last night Richard and I were DJing for an after party for the Brits so our set time was something like midnight we started and I had quite a tiring week, a really good week. I filmed a music video for a new single, Breaking the Circle, on Friday. The single went to radio this week, which is super exciting and I got more excited than I normally do. I'm not saying I don't normally get excited about new singles, but I think I felt even more like more like woohoo because it's been so long

since i've released a new album so it feels very exciting anyway uh yeah so i i finished that i was i was working on thursday and i didn't get didn't finish till oh that's mickey calling me yes darling i am going in the shower but first of all all, I'm just recording something. Do you want to come and sit with me? You have to be quiet, though. Come here. You've just got to listen to your mama. Okay. So, yeah, Thursday night I did a gig.

I didn't finish till... What time did I finish work on Thursday, Mickey? 1 a.m. Then I was up and out and on set by half seven on Friday. Finished that shoot. Then I went to see belinda carlisle concert just magnificent how does this go that's your bed leave your bed alone because that'll make a horrible sound for people in their ears stop it mix um and then yeah so we were djing

and i was thinking oh i'm just gonna go do it come home again and of course as soon as the music started to play I was dancing around super excited feeling carefree there's your stuffs yeah I was feeling super carefree that's so sweet Mickey I knew I ended up hanging out I had a really lovely chat with Shania Twain she was so nice really warm that was unexpected but lovely and yeah it was actually really fun so anyway today i'm a little tired but i'm fine and my feet are a bit sore because even though we're quite low shoes like not high heels they still hurt my feet that's annoying isn't it my feet was hurting why are they darling why why were your feet hurting oh because you got them trapped you got your toes trapped in a door yeah that would do it

yeah he's okay by the way anyway this week's guest so it's anna anna hawke who's a chef i met her about eight weeks after she'd had her baby and i was doing saturday kitchen and I was doing Saturday kitchen and she was the guest chef and I thought she was completely lovely and she had that lovely um radiance about her she was so happy to have her little boy Oisin and it really stayed with me because she seemed so happy and it was a really nice thing to see such a happy new mum and um yeah so after that she I went to her restaurant with Richard for our wedding anniversary last year and she happened to be there and it was honestly so lovely place called Myrtle's in Chelsea we always go to a different restaurant every year for anniversary

it was my year to book it and I honestly think it was possibly my favorite of all the places we've been it was really lovely and yeah really i just think anna's such a warm woman but also so flipping good at what she does honestly food just delicious so it was complete pleasure that she said yes to talk to me for the podcast and we had a lovely lovely chat and i got to hear the story all behind behind how she became a mum because that baby much longed for. Anyway, I will leave you with Anna and I. I'm going to go and have another cup of tea because even though I didn't have too bad with my sleep,

I'm still a bit tired. And, yeah, see you on the other side. Oh, well, how are you? What's up with you at the moment? What's going on? I'm great. I am nice and busy. I opened up a pop-up in Dublin, Anna Ho at the Conrad. It's at a five-star hotel. And I have my restaurant, Myrtle and Chelsea. And I'm always doing lots of bits and bobs.

I just did a kind of collaboration at an event called Obsession in the Northcote Hotel in Lancashire. And that was pretty amazing. It's like one of those kind of bucket list things that you'd like to do. So the hotel is a beautiful hotel. And Lisa is an incredible chef, as is uh craig the the gm he's he's an amazing person very inspiring both of them so for the last um i don't know if it's going 23 years the hotel's there 23 years but they do this kind of guest chef week where they invite um chefs to come and cook their menus at the hotel and really the best chefs ever have done this so it was a huge big deal to be asked to do it like my kind of mentor

Shane Osborne did it back I think in 2008 and to see his picture up on the wall it was kind of like oh my god I didn't know he'd done this and like you know Pierre Kaufman and Philip Howard and I mean really the greats have done it as well as current greats. So, you know, to be asked was a huge compliment and it was loads of fun. That is great. And so with that, would you create your own, you create your menu and you dictate what's going to be happening for that week? Well, no, it's for a day.

And I did it with Sally Abbey from the PEM in London. And we did a couple of courses each. Okay. And came up the day before and did a bit of mise en place, as we like to say in the chef world, a bit of prep. And then the next day we came in and kind of just smashed it. And it was just really fun. I was like, and, you know, so often with our job, it's associated with stress and it's associated with, you know, like constantly like pushing and and and

really stretching yourself so I was so nervous going down what way it was going to be and it was just effortless you know it was just fun and everything just slipped in together and there was no egos it was just a bit of graft a bit of laugh and then some champagne at the end that sounds perfect and when it comes to things like that when you say about the stress versus the fun bit, is it kind of up to you to keep finding that? I mean, presumably, I'm a bit like with musicians, actually. Some people just get a little bit hardened,

a bit bitter, but they stop finding the joy in just the actual good bits of what we do. Does that happen, do you think, with people? You're totally right. So there's certain people I wouldn't like to go out for a meal with because they suck the fun out of the meal.

You know, where I go out and I'm like, oh, this is delicious, or oh, that sounds great, where some people are like, oh, well, I wouldn't do it that way. And I'd be like, go home. Go home, you're going to wreck the crack. The whole idea is when I eat out in a restaurant, I want to be delighted. I want to look for the best version of this food

that they're trying to give you because it's not going to make me feel good to look for holes in something. But yeah, I think stress is important and I'd say it's the same with music. Stress is important to a certain extent because it's pressure. So it makes you create things in a different manner.

But too much stress or stress that's kind of out of your control is where things all get a bit hairy and go upside down. But I'm a real big, like when I'm training young chefs, I'm always saying, because we have this strange thing where we use the word stress and anxiety, like as if they're interchangeable and they're completely different. Anxiety is something that is, I think, very, very serious and often out of your control. Like it's not like something you can switch on and off. Where stress is usually, you know, you taking on too much or maybe not doing your homework or, you know what I mean?

Stress can be kind of controlled and created and stopped by you. And I like that kind of stress. I thrive in that kind of environment where I'm under a lot of pressure, but I know I can come out of that pressure. But anxiety is when it's just that feeling where it's out of control. But it's a similar feeling to stress, but it's where it comes from. It's from a different place.

Yeah, that makes total sense. And I guess as well, when you said about other chefs that you admire, are you now at a point where you've put in so much of the groundwork that you can kind of pick and choose a bit more how you spend your time and still enjoy actually going out and eating food rather than just creating all the time oh well I've always enjoyed eating out like even when I was a commie chef so when I'd have no money I would save up money so every three months I could go to a Michelin star restaurant so when people when I

say oh do you eat out chefs they're like oh I wish and I'm like listen when I was on the breadline and I could barely afford to like have enough socks to keep me going for a week I always put the pennies aside I just didn't go mad I had the du jour menu you know the most affordable menu you could get and you know the most affordable you know glass of wine and you can do it because I love the whole theatre of dining out so as I have gotten busier particularly after having Oisin yeah I definitely dine out. But this is only for a period of time. But I still do dine out where I can, I do. And I'm good at that. I'm good at, like, last-minute decisions where I'm like,

I've got a chance, I've got an opportunity. Just go for it, just do it. But, yeah, I find it inspiring. Even a good pub lunch can inspire me. It doesn't always have to be, you know, one, two, three, I mentioned Star, but don't get me wrong, I'm quite fond of them as well. But, yeah but yeah no I don't think that'll ever go away I think I'll be like 100 years of age and still delighting in in whatever dish is put in front of me yeah and the theater of it and also the care of someone just thinking they're just thinking about how

you're going to experience it and what wonder they can bring and I've been lucky enough to go to Myrtle's and it was so special I love your restaurant so nice so for context like basically when we got married Richard and I would do it we take it in turns to book a restaurant we do alternate years um and it's always a surprise for the other one and we've done a mixture of things but mainly it's going to a fancy restaurant but I think of all of them we've but now I haven't long been married so I think we've been 17 years last year so I think that's my favorite it was really special oh my god you should use that as a soundbite on Instagram I like it I like it I'm gonna be quoting you now I'll tell you what I liked about it is because sometimes when you go to somewhere that's fancy it can almost you feel like you're not the person that they were waiting

for to walk in you know that yes you can be there and it's all very lovely but they were kind of expecting someone else and they're just they've given the experience to you whereas at your place it was special enough that it felt like an you know an occasion but actually we were really relaxed and everybody made us feel relaxed I think that's not what you get all the time That can be a bit off-putting sometimes with fine dining, can't it? If you feel a bit like you're supposed to be reacting and behaving a certain way. Absolutely. Like the whole drive of when I opened up Myrtle was that I wanted to take fine dining and make it slightly informal but with all the disciplines.

So the idea of when you walk in and somebody with their hands behind their back, Madame, you know that kind of, and then, you know, when they move the chair for you, you're like, oh, I feel a little bit uncomfortable, but you know, it'll be okay. I wanted to remove that feeling, but still have somebody greet you, still have somebody bring you to your table, possibly move your chair if that's what you want. So it's much more difficult to do the service that we do because it looks like it's a bit, oh, well, you know, they were just doing whatever. But actually, it's about being more in tune with the guest and thinking what they want, preempting that and giving it to them. And it has taken such a long time for it to kind of be understood because I felt like I was always explaining that I wanted to be informal but still disciplined.

And the food is the same. I try to keep the presentation quite kind of simple, but there's lots of techniques that go into the food that make it really complicated. But I don't want the customers to go, oh, I don't know where to start. I want them to just dive into their food and enjoy it. And that, I feel, is like this kind of underflowing message,

which is very Irish, you know. So for a modern Irishish restaurant it is all about the welcome and it's all about how the person feels that's really important with the kind of you know basis of the the hospitality in ireland yeah because also when you're talking about people who go out and are sort of pulling apart you know there's those people that go out to eat and they it's like they're not using their smiling muscles at all they're just a bit serious about the whole thing and i remember we went to a place once richard and i, and they sort of told us which order to eat the food in and it was all on different types of rock and stuff and it's just a bit, it's just a bit exhausting.

And your best experience of eating, of course it's about eating delicious food, but it's also about the conversation and how relaxed you feel. That's all part of it. I even think the bit where you phone up and make a booking, how someone responds to you on the phone. Yep. That's all part of the experience, isn't it? Have you ever called up a restaurant, and let's say it's new, and you go, oh, is there any chance you'd have a table at, like, let's say 8 o'clock, the most popular time,

and then they actually go, ha, ha, ha, no. And you're like, Jesus Christ, that's the most passive-aggressive way of telling me I'm not welcome in your restaurant. So I totally agree with you. People will call up and try to get a table at, like, 8 o'clock on Saturday, on Friday night, do you know what I mean? Yeah. And how that person's made feel is really, really important to us.

And also, things change so much, so we will always try to keep a waiting list. And sometimes the waiting list is quite big, but in general, it's the idea of going, we're going to add you to the waiting list, let's see what we can do. As opposed to someone like, as in, I could just see her slapping her thigh about what a ridiculous person I was. And really, I was just excited to eat in the restaurant. And I think that's so important that I learned a lesson from bad service. And then you bring that to your own kind of establishment and think, right, what would we not do?

And I think that's really important. It's like how you make people feel because you know what's that famous saying people won't remember what you say but they will remember how you make them feel and that's that's almost like a motto of of the kitchen and um the floor because it is the same how you make people feel with the food you shouldn't feel like you've eaten your food wrong you shouldn't feel like oh you failed that one you ate that bit first you know like it's like oh it'll be your cheese board will be ruined now because you started with the strongest flavor I like to go from A to B to C to you know what I mean wherever you want to A to B to C that is actually in the correct order

but you know please don't use that please I take it mean? I do. So how old was Myrtle when Oisin came along? So Myrtle's nearly four years old and Oisin's a year and a half. So you do the maths. So it was still, you know, I imagine a couple of years into establishing a restaurant, it's still... Oh, my God. Like, it's renowned that if you open a fine dining restaurant, to get through year one is a triumph. Year two, amazing. But by year three, unlikely. It's a really, really hard industry to stay open in

and chuck a lockdown in there. I was going to say, it was a sprinkling of pandemic. Yeah, it really wasn't for the faint-hearted. And as we came out of lockdown, I was aware that I was about to give birth and worked really hard to make sure that everybody was trained and everybody was comfortable and confident about the idea of me taking some time off. And I worked right. I was very lucky that I was more comfortable standing and moving that when I sat down, I would actually get a lot of pains in my back at the base of my back. So I worked right up until nearly a week before Oisin was born really yeah and I've got photos of me in the kitchen like in dungarees like calling checks and it's a very rare thing

to see a pregnant woman working at that kind of level of cooking um and I'm really proud of that um um but yeah it all just worked it wasn't by accident it was through graft but I took three months off officially three months off away from the stove. Still did bits and pieces at home and all the rest, but then slowly went back to work after three months. I think I might have met you for the first time though before that because I feel like when I saw, we did Saturday Kitchen and I think Oisin was only maybe eight weeks or something.

He was, I think I, well, what's so crazy is that the day that, because Oisin is IVF, so the day that actually they did the transferal of the embryo was the day I was on Saturday Kitchen that morning. So I went into the hospital before and then went straight on to Saturday Kitchen. Wow. But I don't know if you know about it,

but they kind of bloat up your cavity when they're taking the eggs out. Has this been technical to people? No, no. Anyway, so I chose a jumper that was essentially a shade or two darker than my skin, but it was very tight. So I basically looked like a kind of beige Michelin man, right? So I saw, like, these layers. And I had nothing else to wear. And I think a couple of people were like, is that what you're wearing?

And I was a bit like yup I just rolled around the kitchen eye as a kite delighted thinking oh my god I might become a mother and I was so excited so yeah it's kind of funny when I think back on that but yeah so Oisin was a couple of weeks old and I'd

taken him for the practice when the day before when you do your dish. And I've got some nice pictures of him in the Saturday kitchen. But I remember how happy you were. It really stayed with me because you were really so excited that he was here in the world. And I guess if you've been through the IVF thing, so this was your first attempt? Yes, we were very we're very

very very lucky um and something I would never take for granted and we didn't you know it's all about the unknown and that's what causes so much stress with it but um yeah he he uh bounced into the world and whatever I think endorphins or whatever little happy chemicals you get I think I get extra ones when I look at them I I feel my head explode in a good way. Yeah. Most of the time, in a good way. But yeah, I, but you know, and say that, I'm a real positive person.

I always see the good side of everything. So sometimes I kind of glide over the tricky stuff as well. Do you know what I mean? So if I'm talking about a story, I'll usually, like if I have a meal, I'm going to tell you all the good stuff at that meal I'm not going to say oh when I arrived so and so was rude or you know as in I'd be much more focused and then maybe I might mention one or two negatives but like that won't take that won't ruin the experience so sometimes I kind of glide over stuff and it sounds easier than it is to be a working

mother which I think is impossible for it to be easy you know yeah and also to be someone that wants to be a parent and is finding it hard so when you're doing that presumably you're still having to hit all your targets and work really hard do you think you how what was your relationship with work like at that time I don't know I once it's just Myrtle, the restaurant Myrtle, for me, I find that much easier because I'm in complete control. I make the decisions. And it's 100% your restaurant, isn't it? Which is actually pretty unusual. Actually, just recently, I gave a portion of the restaurant to the GM, Daniel, because he's so brilliant. And I always said I

would do it, that it was like, I'm a team member. I love being part of a team doing stuff. I'm not a lone rider. And I always knew if I found the right person who wanted to manage the floor like the way I managed the kitchen, they would get a slice of the pie. And he deserves it, so he's now a part owner. But, you know, essentially when it comes to the food,

and Daniel and I have got really similar mindsets, so it's like when we come up with an idea it's it's very easy for it to flow and so from that point of view that's all quite easy it is stressful when you're trying to manage overheads as everything is spiraling out of control at the moment but when I opened up um the Dublin site Anaheim at the Conrad which was amazing same kind of of concept, fine dining, Irish food, lovely, warm welcome. That was much harder than I ever, as in, I knew it would be tricky, but that was a real, that was the baby, the dog, the fella and me all staying in a beautiful suite in the hotel.

But that was quite intense. That was like 15 seconds from bedroom to work. So no commute, no time to just get my head straight. Oh, yeah. That was really intense. And at one stage I was like, oh, my God, what's going to happen? And then the minute we opened, I was like, okay, this is what I can do. This is what I'm trained to do.

But that was really, really, really hard and really stretched me from a point of view of just no me time. Yeah. And I didn't know that me time could actually just be a commute to work or yes a walk to the shops because once you're living in a hotel you're not walking to the shops you don't you don't put on a wash you know those normal mundane tasks you do which you're like oh I don't want to do it but they actually break your mind away and yes you can just focus on it so that was really really hard but yeah and they're not just about you time they're also a time when you can be

involved in the purpose of getting from A to B but you're allowed to think free thoughts about the things you're doing so it might make a difference

about something a nuance of something you're doing at work it's actually quite in lockdown for me it was like I really saw that like oh

all that casual stuff is actually really useful I thought it was just the sort of faffing amongst the, you know, the pure stuff. But once you distill it to like, like with you, with this like baby in one room and then down in the lift

and then the kitchen, that's like, you take away all the other stuff and it's like all your punctuation marks are gone. There's no commas, there's no dashes, there's no brackets. It's just. Yeah. And everything had to come from me and that was hard because we're in Dublin in my hometown. And then the, you know, see the little pooch. She needs her little walks.

And then just balancing that, you know, all of that was really tricky. But I also believe in when you stretch yourself and if you stretch yourself in the right way, that's how you grow. Yeah. As in, if I didn't do that I mean what we've done in in Dublin is really really remarkable our cuisine is is something that doesn't it hasn't been properly formed so to be part of that revolution in you know my home city is really important to me and you know so although I'm split between two cities I haven't just thrown my name to a hotel and said oh just I'm very very involved and when I'm there, you know, I want to give myself a hundred percent. And that's

what was so difficult when I'm with Oisin, a hundred percent, he gets me like, that's it. I'm not gets me. He does get me, but he gets a hundred percent of me. So that's where there was no space for me. It was like work and then home and then work and then home. And that was, was really, really intense for a good few months but that was in you know as a result the work got done and she was taken care of so you know I couldn't do that long term I think I think that was too much to to kind of give but what I've gotten in return is is huge was there ever a worry that you were gonna if you're so passionate about the work you're doing and still you know taking on new challenges

were you ever worried that your ambition for that might diminish when you came on boy did you don't really think about it very much no I didn't I there's some stuff I overthink and then there's other stuff I don't think or worry about at all some stuff you know I really believe in momentum and I believe in flow I think when I stop like the lockdown was quite hard for me I think my self-esteem and my confidence is is really connected with my job you know um so when I wasn't regularly going to even now like if I don't regularly do shifts in the kitchen like where I'm cooking and then I'm serving and doing that as in something feels missing you know really feels missing so I I know that part of

my partner Rich he knows that part of my happiness comes from being able to express myself in my job you know I hate when people connect cooking with art or artists but as I get older I'm like it is about expression I've got something I want to share and it's something delicious and I want you to eat it and then go, oh, that's lovely. You know, it's like when somebody listens to your song and you're like,

I want to dance. You're like, you want to make somebody feel something. And, you know, Rich used to say, well, just love me more or do more stuff for me. And I was like,

you know, I need a bigger audience. I think it's a fundamental as well. I mean, everybody has a relationship with food. There's lots of jobs you could do that not everybody has to have a relationship with. Nobody has a relationship with medicine, for example. But we all, by the age of, what, one,

have got some beginnings of a relationship with food and nourishment. And it's often linked with you know family or people who are around you good bad all sorts you know but and a lot of I honestly think that our relationship with like love and money and food are kind of pretty much established by tell me about 10 in terms of like you're the fundamental emotional response you can obviously put layers on that or shift things around a bit with a bit of conscious work but really when we're little is when all those maps are growing I think and so you were growing up in this quite big family and one of four and as I understand it was your mum that

was always cooking and everything was kind of homemade and yeah well my mum would have come from like Dublin mountains so Barnacolia and dad's from inner city Dublin. So two kind of working class backgrounds. But I think my mum would have had a, you know, a more frugal or a harsher financial beginning. So as a result, she made everything homemade because back then, if you bought something processed, it was really expensive.

It was actually seen as a luxury where now something processed tends to be cheaper and not as held in such a high regard. So she made everything homemade because she wanted us to be nourished. But also she was really good at home economics. She was really good at getting the best out of something time-wise, nourishment-wise and cost-wise. So we were raised how to shop, how to choose ingredients in the supermarket, how you would pick a tomato, how you would pick an apple, like all of those things.

We grew fruit at the back garden. And she was just giving us what she thought was life skills. So it wasn't like the beauty of it. It wasn't like romanticised. She'll talk about it now, like it's romanticised. I taught her everything she knows. But actually it was life skills. She was teaching us how to survive.

She didn't know what way our lives would be. And she knew how hard, you know, her life, not that her life was hard but how you know they were very aware of it wasn't easy to come by things um and as a result she made sure that all of us could do loads of what is considered back then basic skills where now are almost like bespoke skills that people go to courses on to learn like lots of people don't know how to cook they don't know how to make bread they don't know how to make stocks they don't know how to preserve ferment or do chutneys where we were just given that and we hated every second of it um why do we have to make this horrible brown jam the most delicious

gooseberry jam in the universe i can still it. I can still feel the texture of it. Such an amazing balance of sweet and acidity and depth of flavor, like amazing. And I moaned and moaned. And I wanted that generic pink muck that you could buy for 50p in the shop. And her heart was broken because she was giving us the best.

But it's only years later that you realize how lucky we were. Like, that gooseberry jam. I once tried to grow a gooseberry bush in memory of it with Henry, my stepson. And I was like, Henry, we're going to do this. And we buried loads of garlic to grow scapes and some other bits and pieces. I was like, oh, it's going to be great. We're going to have loads of food.

And then I buried the gooseberry bush like this the stem of the gooseberry bush beside a hydrangea and then it grew into a hydrangea I don't know if hydrangeas do that to other plants or else I'm just the most unluckiest person because I had the gooseberry thing stapled onto it yeah but it grew as a hydrangea I when it comes to planting and growing forget it oh me too I'm a cereal killer. Me too. I kill everything. Yeah. I know. I can't keep anything alive like that.

No. Plants are just not my thing. So I wish I was a kind of god as well. Like, well, actually, the hydrangea. Yeah, a classic example of something I've no idea. I mean, to me, that's kind of magical. It grows into something you weren't expecting. But I already had a hydrangea bush and I love hydrangeas.

Do you try and make hydrangea jam? Do you know what? I should have. When I was a little girl, I used to make perfume. Did you ever do that? Oh, yes, I did. I used to go around

to all the neighbours who had beautiful flowers. Yeah, put rose petals. And smash them in with water and then realise that smelled like nothing. Go up to your mum's perfume, slash that in and then get your mum to smell it

and then your mum go, were you at my perfume? No, I just totally just made this Dior, you know, ripple from the locals' flowers. I was obsessed with making rose water. I thought it was going to be very beautiful, like a sort of Victorian toilette type of water.

And then it would go mouldy on your windowsill. Exactly. Rose. It smells like damp flowers. Yeah. Not good. But with your mum, what's interesting is that for a lot of mums with young kids, they might actually do all that stuff,

but they wouldn't actually involve the kids, because for her to actually take the time to show you this is what I'm doing and this is why, is actually quite unusual. Because for her, it would be much quicker just to be like, get out from under my feet, I'm going to make supper, or I'm going to make this jam, or whatever she's doing. Yeah, you're dead right,

but maybe that's where I get my leadership skills from. She's a taskmaster. So I used to say the jam was like three minutes of Star Jam. We used to do Blackcurrant Jam and Gooseberry Jam, and we'd top and tail the gooseberry, obviously. She used to make us top and tail blackcurrants. Do you know what? Blackcurrants are like the size of the tip of your baby finger.

Top and tail them, like hundreds of thousands of them, and then you'd be throwing 50p and you'd be purple fingered for about a week and so she would make us do tasks because many hands make light work and she did volume of stuff but I also do think that she saw this as a responsibility so my grandmother did it for her so she she passed it on to us but I would totally agree with you that it's much easier and faster to do it yourself but for you to be able to do other things and grow as a businesswoman I know like I do have to train my staff to go listen I know you're faster on your own guys but if you train that person to pass that stock and you train that person to do your vegetable that means that

you could have a break or you could then focus on doing something else with more detail so you free up your your time and then also you're training the people at the same time. So it has like a cycle. So I guess I got leadership skills from my mother. Yeah. And she was very good at like disciplining us. And my parents were really good at teaching us how to save. They really gave us layered life skills because I think they were always afraid something could go wrong

something could change and if everything falls apart you could still take care of yourself you know my dad built our extension with my uncles it was mental I don't even think they had an architect who did the drawings I don't honestly I think they were just like yeah get cement get some bricks uh let's just give this a go and then they built the extension wow it's mental but then talking of crazy am i right that when you first left to go and start looking for work in paris because you're thinking right i need to you didn't even have anywhere to live or a job oh my god you remember that oh my god it was so hilarious so my parents are how old are you at this point i think i was let's say I want to say 19 or 20 around that

age and this is when you've already decided I'd already it's the kitchen I'd already done college so maybe I was 21 um I'd already done my in Ireland we call you know you're studying as college like in America it's the same um and uh I'd finished my course and I'd done my apprenticeship I'd done my apprenticeship and my parents would be non what would you say they um risk averse they like things to be safe because I think of where they came from that they were like they believed in structure so when I was going there like have you got somewhere to live oh yeah absolutely yeah totally totally and have you got a job lined up oh yeah really excited about the job yeah and then I packed my bag like somebody who was like on the run from the police, right? So I just like threw everything into a bag

and then just left. Bye, see, bye, bye, love you, bye. And then got to Paris and was like, right, what am I going to do? Where am I going to go? Oh, it's getting dark. I better sort myself out. So I lived in a hostel for a while.

So horrifying. Lived in a hostel for a while and I got a job down the road from the hostel. I couldn't speak French and I had to learn French really quickly and I remember arguing with the owner of this kind of cafe about he didn't pay my boyfriend properly I kind of dismissed him and then didn't pay him

and I had to study French the night before to go in and basically fight for my boyfriend's money and my boyfriend couldn't speak French at all or else I want I can't remember it really because it's like a long time ago it's over 20 years ago now um and uh I uh went in and all the staff were like listening outside the door and I think I was shouting because I I tend to go towards shout if I get excited and they were all like yeah they were like cheering me on as I was trying to use complicated kind of tenses because they would have known how bad my French was.

But yeah, and then I left there and I went to work for, I was only there for a few weeks. It was really like I was trying to get my head around French before I headed into the scary kitchen, which was a job I had gotten, which was for Gualtara Marchesi. And that was, you know, you needed your wits about you in the kitchen. It was quite intense. Amazing kitchen. And when you start out, what's the sort of trajectory for working your way up to the level? So where do you start? Yeah, so actually that's a really good question. When people who wouldn't be as into the food kind of world as much as me, I do forget that. So you start off as an apprentice and then you move on to a commie.

And then after a commie, you become, well, a commie chef, then you move on to a demi-chef, and then a chef de partie, and then you're like a junior sous, sous chef, senior sous chef, and then you become a head chef, executive chef, champion of the universe. So it is quite layered. And then there's obviously different people involved in there. So then you could have like obviously pastry chefs, and you could have chocolatiers, and you could have chefs so there's there's there's a whole array of different

titles but as a kind of basic kind of um hierarchy structure that's what it is but it's so detailed like you can hire somebody who's just a pasta chef you can hire somebody who's just um in charge of pies as in it depends what your your your business business is. Some people would just do afternoon tea, but mightn't necessarily do desserts, as in big plated desserts. It's really about what the business is looking for. And what made you want to do that? Because presumably working with food, you could have picked lots of different levels.

What made you keep climbing? So much of it wasn't in my control. So first of all, when I was in school, I went to the teacher. My friend's mother, Liz, had said, why don't you become a chef, Anna? And I was like, what? Are you joking? I was like, it didn't even dawn on me that it was a career because all those years ago it wasn't like now. So I went into my career guidance teacher and I said, I think I'd like to be a chef.

And she laughed. Tears came out of her eyes. And she said, go on out of there now, Anna. You'll be a teacher now. laughed tears tears came out of her eyes and she said go on out of there now Anna you'll be a teacher now chef get out you made my day with that joke what a shock and disgraceful

she was career guidance so then great yeah about two years later I accidentally was nearly in a kitchen somebody asked me to open

a tin of fruit cocktails the kitchen was empty there was no people in the kitchen and I walked in and like walked in and like something in my stomach just like clicked that was it this is for this is missing in my life I it was totally out of my control and from that my entire career for quite a period of time was out of my control I was put on pastry didn't want to be on pastry but I had boobs and ovaries

so they were like that's where you go and then I got more the more trained I became on that it was harder to get off pastry because they were like oh my god you've got this experience and it wasn't until I went to pied-à-terre for Shane Osborne that he took me off pastry and then I started to kind of go up the kind of more traditional hierarchy system but still never visualized myself being a head chef. I'm kind of disappointed I didn't have bigger goals, but I think in my belly I knew, I knew I'd do well. So it was like a, it was like a blind goal. It was like, I'm going to, I'm going to do really well. I just didn't have a title for it. So I just strove. I wanted to be good and understand how things worked. Didn't want to just make things pretty. Didn't want to just be like, oh great, I'm cooking meat. I wanted to understand

why did that go gray when I did that why did that not puff up properly I wanted to understand the kind of techniques um and I was never in a hurry to get a title at all which was lucky because the titles came very slow I mean by the time I ever got a promotion I was overqualified by the time I got that promotion but But that was just the world was different back then. You know, they didn't see women as a possible leader. Well, I was going to ask you about that. And I was thinking, is that something that is a big factor in that world? Because I've noticed a lot of the people you're talking about

as people who've been inspiring. I don't think I've heard any women's names in there. Well, when I was younger, I worked in, did my apprenticeship in a restaurant called Le Cravin. So there was, I mean, I think it was was 60 40 split at one stage women to men so there's more women than men in the kitchen so ruth was the sous chef and mary was the head pastry chef there was me um and then there was a whole array of like demi chefs and commies and apprentices and stuff who are girls loads of them and um everybody very strong

very ambitious and gender just didn't come into it no nobody cared and then I came to London and they were like look at this dancing monkey she's very odd she wants to cook dance monkey dance and I was just like are you joking me like I've worked with loads out and they're like women aren't good at cooking I was like what the hell they were they were like they're not passionate they're not strong enough I was like you need to hop on a plane and head to the restaurant I've just come from because it's basically run by a woman. So very often when you're the sous chef or senior sous, you are running, you're like a head chef once the head chef isn't there. And that's what Ruth was doing, like managing the whole thing. And it was just really bizarre that they had no

experience of working with women. So therefore they thought they weren't good. So I, you know, battled and I would have been a very aggressive version of myself. I would have still been like, zippity-doo-dah, hey guys. You know, like I would have been still chirpy. But once I would have been working, I would have fought to protect my section. Because I knew if you were soft, they would steal your mise en place. They'd mess up your life. You had to be very able for yourself in those kitchens. Yeah.

There was no easy journey for a girl at all. But there was no easy journey for a guy. I was going to say. They were hard kitchens. I've seen as well some chefs. I mean, my father-in-law was a chef and he used to do, I think it was pastry. And I said, how did you get through it? Because he was telling me about service.

This was in the 60s and it sounded very pressurised. And he said, I drank. And I think there's quite a lot of that that goes on with people finding ways. I mean, I was thinking, I mean, how do you even like date and stuff like that when you're in that environment? Because presumably your hours are pretty antisocial. You probably don't spend a lot of time with friends and things like that at that time you're just you have to kind of dedicate yourself presumably oh sophie there's so much sadness that i could talk about what i've

witnessed over the years real sadness of um lovely people falling into drink falling into drugs um and it is a really um it's a dark side of lots of professions that have stress. I'm so lucky and this is where like I know I always focus on the positives but I'm very lucky that I'm still friends with the girls that I went to school with, you know, from Tala. I'm very close with my family. So when anything would ever go wrong, there was just always somebody there to talk to or so there was no situation

where I turned to drink or drugs to survive or to feel better because I was always looking forward to my weekends home with the girls I'd save my money up and then I used to go home for like just over 24 hours and we would party our little hearts out and then I'd come back replenished rejuvenated and satisfied and would have have told them, I used to call my girlfriends or my family from the red phone boxes, you know, what's your call card? It's like, I'm so old. I was born before the internet.

And it's like, that's what mental health is all about. It's sometimes just getting on the phone and going, this is really hard. I wouldn't tell my parents because they'd have gotten on an airplane and scooped me up and took me back. was it was pretty intense there was bullying there was all sorts of stuff that went on but I did talk to it with my partner at the time what he was going through as a chef as well and we really really supported each other um so but there are people who don't have that and I feel really aware of it as a business owner you get young fellas and

young ones coming from let's say north of England they're only young like in their 20s they're like still little bambis rattling around they don't know where their arms and legs should go and they are looking for a new life maybe a new family might have come from a hard start and they want to fit in and if there's a big strong drug culture or drink culture they'll join it because they'll be like monkey see monkey do. Do you know what I mean? Like that's what humans are like. We just mirror people we admire.

And then if they're too young and don't have the right support network to pull them up and go, hey, hey, hey, slow down, they're the ones that go missing and they disappear and you don't maybe ever hear from them or then you do hear from them and the story's really sad or they pass away. And I have a lot of really, really sad memories to do with that.

And I feel, you know, I've been quite lucky from that point of view. And I guess as well, it makes you more determined to create a wholesome, functioning environment where it's not about that, and's about valuing people and and working as a team and i mean the fact that you've you know made your would you as you say it's general no would they go that you gm yeah daniel yeah so made him part of it because you can value how that necessary that symbiosis is and working the business is really i mean that speaks volumes about what where you place your your values But it doesn't mean it's easy.

So it's like this kind of nice, hey, guys, adult crash time. Let's go play. You want a cup of coffee? You know, like this whole idea of running a kitchen, it's really hard because people's default is to kind of be defensive and fight and protect. It's really strange. So even though you're creating this nurturing environment, every so often somebody might go,

I'm doing this, but that person isn't doing that. And I'm like, all right, be cool. You know, we can kind of fix that. But then it kind of like people move into like cliques and gangs. So it's a full-time job where you're kind of putting out fires and re-sending the message of nurturing, taking care of. It's not just that because I'm like that, then automatically it

happens. So the thing is with any message in business is that you have to work at it to protect it. So to keep a nice, safe environment in the kitchen and on the floor, I am constantly leading by example, which is what Daniel does as well. But also keeping an eye if somebody's saying a joke that feels inappropriate or, you know what I mean? Keeping an eye if somebody's saying a joke that feels inappropriate or you know what i mean keeping an eye on it because when you're a junior you'll laugh at that joke even though inside you die like all of the weird jokes that used to be said yeah and then or the comments of oh you're not like a normal girl okay i'm not like a normal that means i'm one of the good ones right like as in all those weird things that would be said could still creep back into any work environment because it just seems to be instinctive in humans

that when power is involved, people make bad decisions. So it's a really, that's as much a full-time job as it is, you know, running a business. And you're right about those tiny things being indicative of a culture that's part of a bigger, more insidious, dark thing. That's the stuff to keep an eye on, isn't it? Yeah, and it's really hard.

That's the bit I hate. And can I ask you a little bit about being a step-mom? Because I have a stepmom so I'm always kind of curious to hear people how how old was Henry is it I think Henry would have been maybe 11 when I first met him and uh that's quite a tricky age to to forge that relationship in some ways because you're quite grown up at 11 yeah and also some benefits he would be quite um he was well able for himself as well at that age but Henry's lovely he's um he's so like his dad but he's also so like his mum he's very affectionate but also you know he's a teenager so he's like you know get away from me um but you know we've always hugged and kissed and we definitely in the beginning would

have had some hard times because I'm I believe in kind of rules and and discipline so when he'd be with us Rich would be a bit like oh whatever you want son I'd be like you can have that one and Henry would be like you know not always loving it in the beginning but as time went on I think that consistency will always prevail so I love Henry and I always want the best for Henry and all I can do is behave in a way that I think I should behave if that makes sense and I'm always thinking of things that are good for him so sometimes no doesn't mean I don't like you or no doesn't always mean um you can't have what you want sometimes no actually is better for you if you know it's kind of a difficult thing to say but he has a wonderful mother and he's a wonderful father. And my role was kind of tricky in the beginning because I was almost like, I guess, like an auntie, you know.

And trying to kind of fit into that, trying to let that role naturally grow was difficult. And the mistakes you make along the way, you know, like when we would go on holidays, we'd always have Henry stay in the same room as us. And Henry would have his own room when he'd be away with his mum and his stepdad. And I'd be like, well, they get you all the time. And Rich would be the same room as us and Henry would have his own room when he'd be away with his mum and his stepdad and I'd be like well they get you all the time and Rich would be the same this would be me and Rich saying together they get you all the time we have a small period of time with you so therefore we want to watch you while you sleep right and you know there's many holidays where I book the thing in the wrong way and something would just wouldn't you know wouldn't go to plan it would just always look like it was my fault it always felt like it was my fault

and it was really hard but you know over time those things kind of iron out and they become funny memories because my heart was always in the right place and you you can only see that really in hindsight but when you're a kid in the moment it's kind of like you know you feel like it's misunderstood but um but yeah uh he just turned 18 and I'm really proud of him he's a lovely person you know and he's gonna you know I should say he's a man but they're it's so hard because you're like oh yeah they're so young I know 18 is young my oldest is 18 yeah and I it's like it's like he sort of has different hats he puts on sometimes as well because sometimes he look I'll catch him at the corner of my eye and I'm like oh my god adult as a man here yeah and other times something will happen or particularly when he's got the

dynamic of with his brothers and you're like oh you're still really little yeah or sometimes like when they need help with something and you're like I'll help you you know I've offered to cut up Sonny's food sometimes that's like calm down because I'm obviously like in the flow like I'll be doing something for like he sits in between like yeah his seven-year-old brother and and his four-year-old brother so his four-year-old brother. So sometimes I'll just be like, and now you and I don't need to chop up his food. It's fine.

Yeah, but probably deep down he kind of likes it a little bit because when he sees somebody else getting the treatment, you know, whatever it is for kids. Yeah, it's true actually. Yeah, Henry's very good with Oisin and Henry picked Oisin's name. Oh, that's lovely. Yeah, and even his middle name.

So yeah, that's quite sweet. That's very trusting middle name. So, yeah, that's quite sweet. That's very trusting of you. Well, I mean, we gave him the list of names to choose from. Fair enough. So it was, you know, but I'd wanted it to be, Oisín to be the first name. And Ronnie, my uncle was named Ronnie, so he's Oisín Ronnie. Oh, that's lovely. But what's Henry's, Henry's middle name is, what's the Cray twins?

What's the other Cray twin called again? Reggie and Ronnie. Reggie, so that's. Really? what's the other cray twin called again reggie and reggie so that's that's really that's it but it was a total accidental thing so he's henry reggie and usheen is that's so funny yeah i know it's gas but that's i mean with the names i remember when um i was having uh kit so sunny was near it was four and he wanted to call him, what did he want to call him? What's the main, Optimus Prime. And then when I was having, so I had Ray, I don't think I consulted anyone with that one. And then I was having Jesse, and I said to the kids, what do you think we should call him? And Kit wanted to call him Kit Junior, which I thought was kind of amazing.

So I would have had Sonny, Kit, Ray, and then Kit Junior. It was so eccentric, I kind of wanted yeah so i would have had sunny kit ray and then kit jr it was so eccentric i kind of wanted to do it it's not great it's so egotistical as well just call him kit jr please um is it uh little deer is that what you said well it actually means pod and warrior but there's like a few different names of it which i thought was like yeah all good stuff and when you're in ireland and it's something actually i worry about a lot with oisin um you're raised with folklore and and so you're raised with real history and making up history kind of intertwined you get confused of what's real and what's not real but it's so part of your culture um and i i feel like he was just talking about it the other day with rich and i

was like how do i just let that effortlessly filter into his life where it doesn't feel like he was just talking about it the other day with Rich. And I was like, how do I just let that effortlessly filter into his life where it doesn't feel like, sit down, I'm going to give you a lesson on Irish culture, son. Like, I worry about the idea that the culture will be a burden on him to learn as opposed to when you live in the country, you just absorb it. And Rich was like, oh, it's grand, he'll go on holidays. And I was like, that's not how culture works. As in, it has to be drip fed to you.

Yeah, regular basis. So I don't know how I'm going to do that. But do you feel quite responsible then that that's something you definitely want to impart and make part of who he is? Absolutely. And then when he gets to the age where, you know, he will identify with, you know, whatever person he wants to be. But unless I give him some sort of foundation of the culture if he gets older he'd be like why don't I feel connected to Ireland you know as in if he wants that and he might not want that but I have to kind of give him the opportunity of the choice and then if he wants as he gets older to

to embark on it and learn more he can and if he doesn't he doesn't have to but if I don't put an effort in while he's young um he could be angry at me later on because you just don't want him to feel like he's half Irish without knowing anything about Ireland Well I guess as well it's so much part of what you've brought here it's funny you're almost doing the sort of reverse thing aren't you it's like now you have to be the representative for that but I was talking about this we were going for a walk along the river uh yesterday and uh i'm not nationalistic i don't

agree with people who are um nationalistic i'm proud of my culture but i think if i'd grown up in any country i would feel that way you know what i mean um i have to remove the cat and i definitely don't want usheen to feel like he is part of the restaurant or the brand or me because he will then probably hate Ireland. You know, children will always kind of push against that. Yeah. So, you know, I feel like that's something I have to be sensitive about because I want him to have his own identity.

I want him to be who he wants to be. But in the beginning, he obviously doesn't know who he wants to be. So I just want to give him information to then have that as a foundation. And he makes a choice later on. God, you'll have to cut this out. That is way too long. Sorry.

No, it's not. But also it's interesting because I suppose you're sort of picturing a time when, which is because he's only 18 months. So you're sort of so far ahead. And there's so many things that will happen between now and then about indicate, like you might start getting him, you know,

doing all the cooking with him, and he's a bit like, this just doesn't interest me. Or he might be like, this is amazing, you know. And you just don't really know. No, and I'm really a long game person. I always think of, like, far, far, far down the road. And I don't worry about the little bits in between. But I'm always thinking of something down the line. And I don't worry about the little bits in between, but I'm always thinking of something down the line.

And I think that if I wasn't being aware of Oisin's kind of culture or heritage, I could be five years down the line going, oh, maybe I should have just read those nursery rhymes to him and then that would be done. You can't read those nursery rhymes when he's at a certain age. So there's like a feeling of some stuff I'll put into action, but I just wanted to feel a bit more like the way when I was a kid when I went to bed

what was read to me so we would have had um Irish folklore but then it would have moved on to the Beano you know what I mean as in I want him to have a normal childhood I don't want him to be smothered by me but it sounds like I'm going to smother him sorry son no it doesn't it just seems like you're being thoughtful and it's I think, you know, when you become a parent, you are thinking about, I remember as we spoke to you, who said about it like a backpack of all the things you want them to have as like tools you're passing on. And I think that is kind of what starts to happen.

But I'm also wondering, I'm thinking about the fact that he was obviously, as an IVF baby, you this wasn't you have to plan these things sometimes you realize okay I'm probably not going to get pregnant by accident so I have to make this happen and you know does it still feel kind of like completely astounding that he's here I walk past he has this little blue coat and it's a bit snug on him and to be honest his clothes are always snug on him I'm one of those mothers who just is always a step behind for getting the right sizes you know as in oh my god gotta go shopping again um and he got a lot of hand-me-downs in fairness I'm so proud of that I mean really making the most and then I've washed them all I've ironed them up and I'm ready to pass them

on I really believe in that but I pass by his little blue coat and I think of his little chubby hands sticking out of it and I just go oh I prayed that I'd have that day you know like the little socks and they're odd I'm like where is your little matching sock and I love looking at and it was like your feet used to fit into these but now the little meaty feet don't little they don't fit into it anymore I I loved I looked forward to the day that I would see little tiny clothes around the house um yeah so I do feel very grateful. But I am a person who's quite present in a moment. So I'm also very grateful for my friends, my family, even things like I'm really grateful that I have a house that I can put the heating on. When I have a good

program to watch, sometimes I can be in the moment and I kind of go, oh, this is deadly, you know, or I love popcorn. And especially if I'm hungry and I'm eating something, I'll be like, this is a treat. As in, I am an in-a-moment person, and I have lots of moments with Hoshin. Oh, that's so lovely. And I know what you mean about the little clothes around the house, but I suppose if you said you're someone who thinks long-term,

there must have been points where you were thinking, maybe that's trying to picture your life without that bit as well because you've that's something you have to think about if that's a process you're going through so I found it very we tried for about seven years to have a little one and I didn't know we were going to have a child so um I'd gotten to the stage where I really had felt quite um I guess out of my personality a bit negative in a way that I couldn't look at other, in particular, women and children, not really just families. It was mothers and children, especially if, let's say, the kids are doing their head in. I found it really painful to look at.

So sometimes when I'd be going to the shops, I used to kind of cross over the road and it was you know there was many times I would be upset and I would cry um because I just thought that's not going to be for me I'm not I'm not going to have that and they have that and it looks like they don't really you know they're not having a great time you know like you you interpret things and then one day I remember sitting down and kind of going I have this in my life I have that in my life I have these people and fundamentally I am really happy I've got good stuff this is a great life and then I started to be able to find joy in other people's kids again as in I was always I didn't have that same feeling to people who I knew so that feeling was only for strangers if that made sense yeah where you could sort of project things I guess yes and then when I would see little ones in in

the supermarket I'm that odd person who's like giving them a wink or going hi yeah I'm that strange person even now and so I went back to that person and I accepted um that uh um I was gonna not have children and still be happy and then I was got the phone call and the was in lockdown and they were reopening clinics and and I was on the list and I was able to go and go through IVF. And it was a really, really emotional time. I remember when the nurse called me up and I just kept repeating my age. I kept going. I didn't understand how I'd been allowed. I really just thought because I was older, they would choose somebody younger because

of the success rate. So I just kept saying to her because I was worried I'd get down the road. They'd be like, oh, there's been a mistake. You're too old. Because I was literally on the threshold of not being allowed to get the support. So, yeah, and it was really fluid, and I was really taken care of, and they were all along the way, they were just wonderful. And now I've got that little stinky butt to show for it, so I'm very grateful. Yeah, that's wonderful. I think as well, like, there's so many people who go through it, and actually a girlfriend of mine, she put a post up recently where she said,

you know, we've noticed as a couple that a lot of people don't really speak about this, so we just thought we'd be really upfront and say we've been going through IVF and if anyone out there wants to speak about it with me and all this, and I think it's really powerful and lovely, and I'm just really happy it worked out as well. It's really special, and I think once you, I think it's good to acknowledge

that there's lots of things going on behind closed doors and that people do have, sometimes have a very hard time not becoming a parent or having to accept where they're at with it. And that's, I think we, you know, you sometimes get a bit lost in it, don't you? Especially with, I remember speaking to Emma Barnett who'd gone through IVF to have her baby and she said like she couldn't believe all the people putting things on social media all the time or they'd be she'd know they'd had a hard

time and then they'd have the baby and then they'd be like posting all the time and be like why are you doing that that's so hard for me to see but I guess you just uh it's so personal all of it isn't it it's just down to such an individual thing it's so personal and your mindset that you were in you can go on to social media or watch a movie and interpret it in a completely different way depending on what how your week has been you know and being kind of self-aware is so important for us so knowing that if you are triggered or you're in a place that stay away from social media like put on that program that makes you feel warm and fuzzy so when I'm stressed I unannounced to myself in the beginning my partner used to put on the

office USA you know the intro music would come in and all of a sudden I'd kind of you know waddle over and flop onto the sofa and and kind of have the warm hug of that safe friendly little comedy as opposed to kind of getting lost in your thoughts. As in, being aware when you're being triggered is quite empowering. Yeah. Kind of stepping away from stuff that make you feel bad, because wallowing is really dangerous, you know? It sounds like you're very attuned to sort of emotions

and where they might lead to the sort of, when you're making the distinction between anxiety and stress, but also, as you say, like understanding yourself and when it's triggering, when you need that phone call with your girlfriends to let off stress or, you know, watching The Office. Is that something you've just learned through your work and having to rub up?

Because I guess you have to be quite good at reading people in a situation where you have to be quite quick to make a call on things. Yeah, it's a really good question, actually. So when I was first in charge of kitchens, nobody teaches you how to lead. And I am 5'4", and men are surprisingly tall, even from a young age. So to lead young men is quite tricky because they're looking for an alpha male, or were back then.

Times have really moved on quite a bit but not perfect but um so I used to let's say give direction and I'd never heard it before and sometimes somebody would go no I'm like Jesus Christ what do you mean no as in I'm the senior chef so it was like I then would go mad raw like assert my authority I'm quite articulate when i'm angry and then they would you know carry down and do as i told and then i'd go home and feel huge shame because you when you see fear flash across a person's eyes when you see a person feel embarrassed or degraded because you've verbalized their um weaknesses in the moment you feel amazing you feel powerful you you are like some sort of cartoon villain rising up but

what goes up has got to come down so when I used to walk home at night I'd feel deep shame going I knew that the direction I'd given that chef was correct I understood everything about what I was telling them to do yet they didn't obey me so what is it about me that made them think I don't have to do that even though I'm the person who has all the answers for them, because I was the most senior person after the head chef. So I bought books on body language, I bought books on management of people, I tried to learn how I could word things so that I wouldn't have confrontation, I wouldn't have to prove myself again and again, 100 times a day. And I don't really know when it changed, if I'm honest, but I know now that if I ask anybody to do something, they do it.

And I am high-fiving, smiling, you know, there's no like dark person coming in here with authority, as in, I don't know where I read it, but you own the space you stand on. You own it. Like someone will have to physically pick you up and take that space from you. So you need to feel that that's actually quite powerful, that you're connected to the ground and you own it like someone will have to physically pick you up and take that space from you so you need to feel that that's actually quite powerful that you're connected to the ground you own that space so as you speak to somebody they own the same space as you and so if they're

taller or broader irrelevant their feet take up the same space you have that same circumference and and that's really important when you give a person direction that you're owning that space I don't really know how it all... Like I said to you, I've got a long vision and then all the other bits and pieces are just momentum along the way that I've gathered up, you know. Rolling Stone doesn't gather moss, but I don't know. This Rolling Stone gathered quite a lot of stuff on the way.

That's really interesting that you actually made a conscious decision to understand people like that. And I've encouraged people to do it. I really have. My partner, he used to be like, ooh, airy-thairy. Lots of people have said it to me because I really believe in kindness in the kitchen. And I'd be like, no, here, read this book and have a look at this.

You know, what do you win more bees with honey than vinegar? You know, the whole idea that we think that authoritative people have to be aggressive and condescending and they're powerful. But real power is going to ABC. The person does ABC and they make something amazing. This is powerful. Without having to kind of bend somebody's arm. I love training chefs.

I love knowing you're going to be better than me one day. I love the feeling of like, if you start off like this, where are you going to go? So potential is all in the person's hands and you can just give them an environment. And do you see that when you're doing the, because I've been watching on MasterChef, the professionals. Is that something that really resonates with that whole thing of like when people are hungry for the next bit? Absolutely. That show, holy Mary, mother of God. You know, I'm sure there's lots of chefs that watch

you're going i could do that oh do that dish the resilience you need in that show so the kitchen is a perfect example where if you've got potential you will absolutely shine but potential is one thing and graft is another so you have to take your own potential and just put hard work, hard work, hard work, hard work, again and again. And then you're just not allowed to make mistakes. And you can be the best chef. You can be the chef that perhaps should have won the programme, but you made that mistake and today you're going home.

And I found that really hard. There was times where Marcus and I would be like, ah, no, can we not just let them go through? Because, you know, in our hearts we were like, we think maybe this person could be a winner. And they were like, ah no, can we not just let them go through? Because, you know, in our hearts we were like, we think maybe this person could be a winner. And they were like, you know, this is the whole nature of the game that it's like, you know, mistakes are how people get knocked out. But that's what makes it so important that people have to see that winning isn't everything. It is the participation. I sound like my mother now, but it's like being brave enough to put

yourself underneath that light. And even if you get knocked out in the first round you're better than thousands of other chefs who are too afraid to do it so to keep waking up each morning with more fire and more graft you're getting stronger you're stretching yourself each day you're nervous you i mean to see where they go when they first do the skills test honestly you should see them putting on their aprons they're nearly like wrapping it around their knee. As in, they do real random crazy stuff because they are so nervous. I was going to say the nerves, just your brain doesn't work properly. Your brain doesn't work properly.

And then a couple of cooks later, and they're just blowing your mind with how talented they are. Wow. And that's stretching yourself and getting stronger, stretching yourself and getting stronger. So there's only a very small percentage of the chef industry that put themselves through that and then actually flourish and grow. Yeah, it's pretty extreme.

Richard and I always watch it like, could we do this? He says he always likes watching the celebrity one because everything they have to do is a lot easier. And he's pretty sure they get shown things in the gaps. So he's like, that's the one. They don't. Don't they? No, they don't.

I'll correct him. I think he'd like, that's the one. They don't. Don't they? No, they don't. I'll correct him. I think he'd be quite up for it maybe. Oh, he should. My mum did it actually. And what's his name? Greg tried her meatballs and spat them out so therefore he's obviously

on my blacklist because you're not allowed to do it with anyone's meatballs let alone my mum. Greg, Greg, Greg. It's not cool, is it? That doesn't even sound like Greg. No, I think he's like,

he seems like a really nice guy but back then maybe, I don't know, early days. Oh, might, Greg, Greg. It's not cool, is it? That doesn't even sound like Greg. No, I think he seems like a really nice guy. He is. But back then, maybe, I don't know, early days, I don't know. Oh, might have been early days. It was just hard for me to take, you know. My mum's a good cook. I'd be kicking windows in and flipping tables. I'd be bailing my way down there if someone did that to my mama.

Yeah, it's not cool, is it? Well, I definitely would say that from working with Greg, he is really thoughtful and he's really professional. And he's very aware of how it impacts the chefs in the moment. You know, so he plays around, he's joking and he's very, very funny and really knowledgeable. He's like a kind of historian. You know, he's got so much information. But really, when it comes down to the brass tacks

he's he's aware of that he's he's in tune with the the cooks yeah he's aware of how they'll feel and i feel he's quite thoughtful in in his approach now but he he must have seen maybe he was threatened by your powerful mother huh it wouldn't be the first time that a man was threatened by a powerful woman amazing meatballs um well yeah i think i and i also really take what you say about that thing of learning from yourself when you do rise up and you feel like you need to throw your weight around to make a point but then that bit where you get the shame of like how because i think also if you know you're someone that can be quite articulate when everything's got a bit fiery it's actually it's not too hard to take someone down

and be quite sort of mean in quite a clever way and you feel brilliant for like tiny minute and then you just feel absolutely terrible awful because all you feel is that I wasn't good at my job I had to use and it rattles intimidation yeah so that but it took me I would say years to learn how to manage people. And I'm still learning. It's not an easy thing because as you get bigger, you're managing more people. And you're managing more talented people as well. But that's kind of part of the journey.

I choose to do that. And I want to be good at that. I want to make people feel good. I just don't want a load of people who just do what I say blindly. I want them to want to do the same thing, be on the same vision. Yeah. So basically I've chosen to have the most complicated way to lead people because it means that you're empowering them. So, you know, if you look at any government who really manage people or, you know, over the years, companies, the more empowered people are, the more hard it is to get them to do what you want.

And they respect you. Respect is important. Respect is very important. And also they're invested in the vision they feel part of it they feel they carry the success of it and that's true that's really valuable that's really true and that's that's i never um swan around thinking it's all me i'm a reflection of my team you know and they're a reflection of me it's it's kind of yeah you know it's a bit of both yeah and when you go home do you make all of Oisin's food from scratch so absolutely I am killed cooking for him left right and center but it's quite easy usually it's like if I'm doing like moussaka or something like that I will take a bit of the lamb off and I'll do like little burgers where I'll just won't put anything really in them just fry them off and when you see

you know sometimes he gives a bit of food and you're like I won't put anything really in them, just fry them off. And when you see him, you know, sometimes he gives a bit of food. And you're like, I won't look at him because if I look at him, he'll know that I'm watching him eating a new thing. But then in the corner of my eye or in the reflection of the glass, I'm like, nailed it. And he'll be like, la-la-la-la-la. So he is a really good eater until he doesn't want to eat something. And then sometimes he'll get himself to a stage where he'll be starving,

so then he won't even eat a banana. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. But usually when I bring out the banana, it's the na no no no yeah but then you did also tell me before we start recording that the only tantrum he's actually thrown was when he wasn't allowed to keep stealing food from the other kids in the nursery so i think he's got a lovely relationship with food well him the food is the boss with him three portions of cake he was in the middle of stealing the third cake, so mouth open, going in.

Right, and all the other little kids being very well behaved, staying sat down while they're having their little snack time. And there's Oisin just hoovering up everybody's food. I've been there. And also, like, you know, if you can see the other food on the plate, it's like, come on, you're eating that a bit slightly. Can I help you with that?

The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree. You definitely got that from me. You don't want to share a cheese board with me. It'll be gone. It's gone. Anna, thank you so much. I've loved talking to you. Honestly, I'm so delighted that you asked me to come on the show.

The amount of amazing, inspiring women that have been on the show. I was like, when you asked me, I said to my fella, I think she's got me mixed up with somebody else. Nah, not at all. So delighted to be asked. Well, welcome. Welcome to the Island of Women, part of the podcast.

All good. You brought your wisdom, thank you. That was lovely, Anna Hoare, and I hope you enjoyed our chat. I think there'll be a lot of people who hear that and feel very comforted that IVF... Mickey, I thought you trapped your finger again.

He was laughing, I thought he was crying. I know, but the sound you made. Oh, Abby! Well, that sounded a bit oh gold oh wish me luck with today guys um yeah so thank you so much to anna and i uh what was i gonna say oh my goodness i think the brain is actually not coping as well as i thought with a 3 a.m finish you know when you're young and you go out till three and then you can spend the whole of the next day just being like nursing. I'm not hungover, by the way. I'm just tired.

And you can normally spend that day just being all cosy. But today that ain't going to happen because I have lots of small children. And actually, also, I'm singing again today. So I'm off out this afternoon. But it's a nice early finish for me today. I'm off out this afternoon. But it's a nice early finish for me today. I'm singing at a charity event,

which is raising money for Karen Keating Foundation. So I'll be with my mum today. Karen was someone that presented Blue Peter with my mum. And they were very good friends. And so, yeah, I'll see her sons and her mum and go and sing. And i'm finished by six so i can have a nice early night as well and um in the meantime oh mickey's got tons of energy mickey can you give me some of your energy oh that sounds about right oh just as an aside last night I wore a kaftan. It's the fourth time I've worn a kaftan since Christmas. And I think it might be my jam for 2023.

Kaftans are amazing. You feel glamorous and you sort of walk around feeling like Elizabeth Taylor in the 60s. But also you're really comfy and it's just like a big sack type thing, really. So, recommended. And also recommended to go and see Belinda Carlile in concert, if you get a chance. Honestly, Friday Night's Geek was so good. I've loved it since I was little, and it was one of those concerts where I knew every word to every song. It was on my feet for the whole thing.

That was brilliant. Plus, yeah, she sounded great. And then actually after today, I'm actually completely quiet for next week. So when we next speak, I will be all mellow because I've got no work for half term. I just decided to keep it really quiet so I can be around the kids and actually also host a 14th birthday party

for Kit who turned 14 this week and we're having a sleepover and he's got seven of his friends coming and they're all big teenagers and I don't know where I'm going to put them all. So think of me with that. Anyway, in the meantime, thank you to you. I hope whatever you're doing, you're taking it in your stride.

And if you're not, well, tomorrow will be better. And I hope you feel chilled and happy. That's my aim for today. Chilled and happy and not all achy and hoarse and yeah see you soon Thank you.