Stuff You Should Know - Finders Keepers: Real Law

Episode Date: November 20, 2018

You know that heartbreak of the schoolyard – finders keepers, losers weepers? That’s actual law in a great many grown up places. Enter the murky legal world of finding something that belongs to someone else, from buried treasure to a misplaced ring. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey friends, when you're staying at an Airbnb, you might be like me wondering, could my place be an Airbnb? And if it could, what could it earn? So I was pretty surprised to hear about Lisa in Manitoba, who got the idea to Airbnb the Backyard Guest House over childhood home. Now the extra income helps pay her mortgage. So yeah, you might not realize it, but you might have an Airbnb too. Find out what your place could be earning at Airbnb.ca slash host. On the podcast, HeyDude the 90s called, David Lasher and Christine Taylor, stars of the cult classic show, HeyDude, bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces. We're going to use HeyDude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and

dive back into the decade of the 90s. We lived it, and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. Listen to HeyDude the 90s called on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from House StuffWorks.com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there. And this is Stuff You Should Know, the Finder's Keepers Edition, Losers Weepers. So Chuck, this is like, this is an actual thing. It's not just like a child's fantasy. Like this is law in some places. And while it doesn't actually state Losers Weepers, I think it's implied. It's implicit in the law. The Finder

is the keeper, but you lost it. So you're legally obligated to weep in public. Yeah, and it's funny reading through some of these examples. It sounds like playground stuff. I'll save it. I'll get to some of these examples though. I'm like, man, that's not yours. Like, come on. Give it up. Did you say that out loud to yourself while you were here? I did. A couple of these. I was like, man, seriously? Man, that's not yours. That's not yours. I'm just, I have a big justice thing, you know? Oh, yeah, me too. It's when I see people acting like a big baby

and saying like, oh, this money I found on my wall, this mine. I'm like, no, it's not. Well, you would be a great arbitrator. Yeah, get out of here. It's not yours. You'd be like, my ruling is this, man, that's not yours. Give it up. But no, let's start with John and Mary. Not their real names. No, no, I guess that's worth pointing out. These are anonymous, an anonymous husband and wife team. From NorCal. Yeah, from Northern California. And they are anonymous because they didn't want a lot of attention and they are still anonymous. We'll call them John and Mary. And they are famous,

well, I guess they're not famous, but their case is a little famous because they found $10 million in our, you know, what could be $10 million in rare gold coins buried on their property that they own on a walk. And it's known as the Saddle Ridge Horde. In February 2013, they found this, these 1400 gold coins that no one knows who they belong to, how they got buried there. But they found them and took a long time sort of coming out with this. They did it about as smart as you possibly can. Yeah, they didn't rush to the press or anything and say, look what we found. They took their

time because I think they rightfully knew that they were onto something pretty special. Yeah. So they were out walking on their property, put that away for later, with their dog and they noticed, I guess the side of a can coming out of the ground and they went and dug it out and sure enough, there was a bunch of gold coins in there. Whenever you see a can coming out of the ground, I mean, that's your hope and wish that it's going to be filled with gold coins or jewels or something, right? But it never happens and it actually happened to these people. And so they went back again and again and again and they ended up pulling eight cans filled with gold coins, pure gold coins out of the ground on their property.

And it became very apparent based on the state of preservation of the cans and the dates of the coins in the cans that somebody had buried this no more recently than the very beginning of the 20th century and probably sometime in the late 19th century. Yeah. And here's a hint. If you ever happen to unearth a can or a glass jar or something full of money buried on your property, just keep digging. That may be it, but maybe not. Yeah. I wondered what kind of excavation they undertook once they were like, oh, there's more there. I'm quite sure they cleared that ground. It's verified there's no more cans. So if you're talking actual money face value, it's about 27 grand, but because these are

rare finds in great, great condition, most of these coins, they're thinking that it could be worth as many as as much as 10 million bucks. So they're going to sell it. Well, they have been. And donate some of this money. And you know, it's nice that they're donating some of it, but it really sort of opens up this question of, hey, what does the law say about finding something, period, much less like on my property? Right. The finder's keepers law basically is what you're talking about. That's really what it's called in case laws, the finder's keepers laws or rules.

That's right. So there was a lot going on here. These guys, John and Mary, own the land that these coins were found on. And that was a huge mark in their favor. Oh yeah. But they're in the United States, it really depends on what state you're in, what court you go to, what judge you happen to pull. The case law on it is so all over the place and so piecemeal that it's really almost the luck of the draw. And there are more things that you can do to compound your case, to make it more likely that the thing is yours.

But really, it comes down to who has the best claim on whatever is found. Yeah, like somebody could come forward still probably or could have come forward with John and Mary and said, wait a minute, that was my great-great-grandpappy Clark's land. And I'm sure he did not intend to Clark you those gold coins. So like we actually should have a claim as his family to take this stuff from you. And that could go, that could very legitimately go to court to be decided by a judge. And again, like you said, it's who has the more legitimate claim. What really helps them is like you said, it was on their land and that it's super old.

Right, exactly. So the fact that it's very, very old means that the person who buried them is probably dead, may not even have any living heirs any longer. That's one thing, that it's old. The second thing is that it's old, but it's also not necessarily archaeological. It's money. So it's the gold coins are the definition of treasure. And what we've entered now is called treasure law. And there's different types of things as we'll see, but there's one category of found property is called treasure. And what they found was treasure. It was a gold coin. It was very old, but it wasn't necessarily archaeological. Again, it was on their property. And so had somebody come along and said, my grandpappy Clark buried those back when my

family owned this property, that's ours. They would have a claim. And pretty much anytime something valuable, especially $10 million valuable is found in the United States, it is automatically going to get hammered out in court because the laws are so vague and piecemeal and arbitrary that it's going to be hammered out in court who has the bigger claim. But because John and Mary found something that was old, that was buried by someone, no one knows who buried it and that it was found on their property, they have a pretty good claim. Now, if you were going to come and say, my grandpappy buried that, your claim would be that was that belonged to my family at one point in time. We think it still does.

Which has happened to be buried and forgotten or left on land that these people bought. Now, there's a pretty good chance that the court would say, yeah, but they bought the land and depending on what state you're in, that's that. If they owned the land, they owned everything on it. Yeah. Or bought the car with money in the trunk or the house with a super valuable painting buried in the attic. It's sort of all the same. And this is modern times. This has been going on since the dawn of time when people would lose or bury something. And they've always had, I think back then it was a little more cut and dried, like an ancient Rome.

If you found something like that, half of it went to the emperor, just sort of know if fans are butts. Right. If in modern England, if you find something old and rare, they say, that belongs to the queen. But here's a good fee for you. Now hand it over. And that's very, very new. And that's kind of that represents the new thinking in treasure law or found property law, which is, look, we can't just let you keep this stuff that may have not just like monetary value, but actually like cultural value as well.

So we need to have something to do with this. So England just went, I should say the UK just said everything you find that is valuable or antique and archeological, that belongs to the crown, but the crown is going to pay you market value. No questions asked right off the bat. So it's not finder's keepers, but it's finders. Here's a bunch of money you didn't have before for finding this and bringing it into us. And the point of this, from the position of the crown or the UK government, is that it encourages cooperation with archeologists and historians to preserve cultural stuff rather than just having it sold out onto the commercial market to private collectors because of finder keepers laws.

And that's how it was before 1996. Yeah. I mean, if it's in the UK today and you find something that is not an ancient gold coin, but if you just find a, let's say, you know, 10,000 pounds bundled together, buried in your attic or on the street for that matter, I think you have to file paperwork at a police station. The owners have 28 days to claim it and then it's yours. In the United States, it varies from state to state and sometimes even county to county, but generally it's sort of the same thing like reported to the police. They need to advertise the lost property for a week and then wait about 90 days, depending on where you are to see

if anyone claims it. And then after that, they might say, you can keep it. But maybe it just depends on where you are. That's like contemporary property that you found, right? Yeah. Yeah. This is not like ancient gold coins. This is, I found a bundle of cold hard cash. So let's take a break and then we'll take a detour into contemporary property because there are like a whole other set of laws that are kind of important too, all right? Yes.

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you listen to podcasts. Okay Chuck. So like we said, there's, there's some categories for, for property, found property. One of them is treasure where it's a straight up, I found eight cans of gold coins and it's treasure. Um, in the UK, there's not really a distinction between that and say, um, like, uh, archeological artifacts, they're virtually one in the same. In the US, because the, the age of the country is young enough, there's a distinction between

an archeological artifact and say like treasure that's found, but then there's contemporary property where the person who owned it is probably still alive. If not there, the first generation after them is still probably around. Um, and that, that contemporary stuff is basically broken out into three subcategories. There's lost, abandoned and mislaid property. And depending on the status of the property, um, the finder may or may not get to keep it. And even that, then it depends on where you are.

Yeah. So as far as those categories go, abandoned property is something that, uh, they say is forsaken by a previous owner who doesn't have any intention of coming back for it. So they've abandoned, they have abandoned it. Can you imagine like how you would tell whether something's abandoned or not? I don't know. I mean, unless they literally leave a note saying finder's keepers, I don't want this anymore.

Get this away from me. You know, what would it be? Like a big bag of cocaine that somebody left there. Like I can't do anymore. This is really bad for me. I don't want this. I don't know. Uh, I don't know.

That is, that is the one that is the most confusing. For sure. Uh, the other two are much more straightforward. Lost obviously is like, uh, the example they gave is you, you've lost your, uh, engagement ring in the street, um, and clearly it's something that you want back and maybe have tried to come back and find, um, but you have, uh, dropped it or lost it somehow. Right. Um, mislaid is even more interesting because, uh, that is something that you intentionally

put somewhere, but then kind of forgot it. And another good example, like you went to the bank and we're filling out your form and then, oh my goodness, you got a cell phone call and had to bolt real quick and you left that money on the counter that you wanted to deposit in the bank. That is mislaid, um, because you clearly had an intention for it and we're just way later, whatever. Right. You got to be lost because you put it somewhere on purpose.

Yeah. Whereas lost, like you dropped something in a parking lot, you may not even know you're missing it at the time. Right. Or you can't find it. Right. Um, mislaid is just like, you're no longer where you put that thing down, but you intended to do something with it.

There was an intent behind it, but you forgot or something or you got called away. Yeah. And that, that property, mislaid property is supposed to be, uh, guarded by whoever owns a property. In that case, it would be the bank, somebody from the bank should go over there, collect that money and just set it aside and be like, that guy will be back for this. Right. Which is, it's funny because, you know, the whole lost and found box, you think that's

just like a good Samaritan thing. Well, really it's everybody just covering their behinds, legally speaking, I guess. Probably so. I see it differently now and I'm a little more bitter because of it. So this Arizona case is one of the ones where I got a little, uh, little P.O.D. I was okay. A little bit. So this is a man died.

He hid half a million dollars in cans and ammo cans, ammunition cans in the walls. And years later, the person who owned that house were doing some renovations, outcome these cans and they were like, Oh my God, it's a half a million dollars. This is ours. So this man's daughters, they knew like dad loved to do stuff like this. He loved to hide things away. Uh, they, they searched before they sold the house. They even searched, but obviously did not find these, these cans stashed in the walls.

Uh, and when this came out, these daughters came forward and we're like, you know, that's our money. That's our, our, you know, should have gone to us in a will, but my kooky dad stashed it in the wall. Again, jerk. And, uh, these people fought them for that and said, no, finders keepers. It's in our wall. We bought this house.

Well, so, I mean, I, I can understand your eye or in your anger at that. That's what I'm like. As soon as someone stepped forward, I would have been like, Oh, well, here's your money then. Like this is your father's. Sure. It doesn't belong to me. But what if you were like, actually we've got a like legitimate legal claim to this

because depending on where they were, and this is Arizona, but I mean, depending on the state, when you buy property from somebody, you buy the property and everything on it, on that property, whether anyone knows it's there or not. It belongs to you as the property owner. For example, Texas is huge on that huge on private property ownership. So much so that if you own property in Texas and there's an archeological site on your property, that's yours, bub. You can set it on fire.

You can turn it into a rec room. You can do whatever you want with that stuff. That's your property. That's how Texas views private property rights. So these people may have been like, Well, we're from Texas. That's just how we do it in Texas. They had a legitimate claim to challenge. I get what you're saying, but they also may have felt like, Hey, we bought this property

and this came with the property. So this is ours. Sorry. That whole losers weepers thing, I think is what they were invoking. Yeah. I mean, that's clearly what they did. But what I'm saying is that is not a, that's not cool. Like it's that money did not belong to them.

They didn't work for it. They didn't buy it because the house, because they thought there might be money in the walls. Yeah. Now I understand. And if no one came forward, then great. But as soon as these daughters come forward, like that's their money, do the right thing. That's what I say. I'm with you.

Like I would, there's no way I would have challenged these daughters in court. Right. You would have been finders, nice guys, losers. Here you go. Well, I'd make sure, you know, I'd go through all the legal process of making sure that they are who they say they were and it all checked out. I wouldn't like if they came knocking on my door, we'd just go, all right, here. But I would, I would go through that process and then say, well, okay, then it's definitely

your money. Would you like interview their cousins and be like, what kind of daughters were they? Were they good daughters or, you know, do they deserve this? The very least you're inviting a heap of bad luck and karma upon your head. Well, if you believe that kind of stuff, sure. It comes around. What goes around comes around. That's my motto.

Well, that's another one, finders, keepers, losers, weepers, what goes around comes around. And then the third one, everything I needed to know, I learned in kindergarten. Or what about this guy in Georgia, the public defender, talk about a jerk? Yes. There's no, this guy had no legal standing whatsoever, whether he was from Texas or anywhere. Yeah. Well, I didn't look him up to see what his name was, but in 2013, a public defender found a diamond ring, I guess an engagement ring that was worth something like $10,000.

And just put it in their pocket and walked away whistling. Man, what a, I mean, especially an engagement ring. Right. Oh, that's mine. Yeah. What a jerk. No, I agree. And he got in trouble for it from what I understand, when the person went back and said, I lost

my engagement ring at the target, help me. The target said, well, of course we're going to help you, calm down, calm down, peace brother. And they pulled up their surveillance videos and saw the public defender finding the ring and pocketing it. And they put a warrant out for the public defender's arrest for, I think, larceny, actually. At the very least, for not going to lengths to find the person whose ring it was. Yeah, not even lengths, lengths to pick up a phone. Or go into the target and be like, Hey, I need to speak to a manager.

Well, it's funny. It says one of the things that you can and should do is like to do that and go like give that diamond ring to the manager at target. And like, I would never do that if it was something super valuable. I wouldn't trust, I wouldn't trust them. I would keep it under my own control and go to the cops. Just walk around with a gun drawn on everybody, like, get back, get back. I found somebody's diamond ring, get back.

It's mine. Stop looking at me. And you're like, maybe I should just go ahead and rob some place now that I got my gun out and I'm protecting this diamond ring and you enter into a life of crime totally inadvertently. It's a justice thing again, like I don't want, people should have stuff that is rightfully there, it's not like, well, I just happened to get lucky today. Right, right. It's that whole get rich quick, like, that's what's wrong with this country.

Yeah. Man. And I mean, I know you're right about the 500 grand in the behind the toaster oven. The diamond ring is even more cut and dried to me for sure. But that's, yeah, this isn't a parking lot and it was just lost, you know? So yeah, there are certain things that you want to do if you find lost property that is contemporary, that's obviously lost, that's obviously new. And one of the first things you want to do is take it to the cops and say, here, here's

my name and number in case somebody doesn't, doesn't claim this, but I'm officially giving it to you, the cops for safekeeping and then probably take out an ad in the paper or on Craigslist or both and then kick back and wait for the kudos and the praise for being a hero. Yeah. Or for that thing to be returned to you if no one claims it. Yep. Depending on where you are, I think it, like you said, in the UK, it's something like a

month in California. I saw 120 days, I've also seen 90. Yeah. If you do all the right things and follow all the right steps, it can be yours, free and clear. Not only free and clear, like you're not going to be arrested. Being clear where the person can come back and say, oh, you know, that was my ring. If you are a jerk, you can say, no, it's my ring now and the cops will be like, it's

their ring now. They followed all the right moves. Yeah. They also recommend if it's something really, really valuable, maybe like get an attorney on the thing, like maybe one who would find a diamond ring and not return it. Right. Exactly. He's a public defender too.

That's what I don't get. Yeah. If it was like an entertainment attorney, it would make much more sense. It would, I guess. But a public defender is like, well, I don't get paid. This is a really thankless job and I'm going to do something for myself for once and then they ended up in jail for doing something for themselves for one. And then needed a public defender.

Yes, ironically. Should we take a break? Yeah. We're going to take a break, Chuck, and then we are going to go under the sea. Yeah, where things get really confusing. On the podcast, Hey Dude, the 90s called David Lasher and Christine Taylor, stars of the cult classic show, Hey Dude, bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces. We're going to use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and

dive back into the decade of the 90s. We lived it. And now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. It's a podcast packed with interviews, co-stars, friends, and non-stop references to the best decade ever. Do you remember going to Blockbuster? Do you remember Nintendo 64? Do you remember getting frosted tips?

Was that a cereal? No, it was hair. Do you remember AOL instant messenger and the dial-up sound like poltergeist? So leave a code on your best friend's beeper because you'll want to be there when the nostalgia starts flowing. Each episode will rival the feeling of taking out the cartridge from your Game Boy, blowing on it and popping it back in as we take you back to the 90s. Listen to Hey Dude, the 90s called on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast, Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. The hardest thing can be knowing who to turn to when questions arise or times get tough or you're at the end of the road. Ah, okay, I see what you're doing. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help.

This I promise you. Oh, God. Seriously, I swear. And you won't have to send an SOS because I'll be there for you. Oh, man. And so will my husband, Michael. Um, hey, that's me. Yep, we know that, Michael.

And a different hot, sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life step by step. Oh, not another one. Uh-huh. Life in relationships, life in general can get messy. You may be thinking, this is the story of my life. Just stop now. If so, tell everybody, yeah, everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen.

So we'll never, ever have to say bye, bye, bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. All right. So this is where things get super, super convoluted. When you're talking about, uh, shipwrecks and literal treasure from like, you know, uh, an ancient galleon, um, or maybe not ancient, but let's just say galleon, you know. It could be.

Yes. We'll see. Gallions and ancient times. They had, oh, you know, the oldest intact shipwreck was recently found in the Black Sea. Did you see it? Uh-uh. An ancient Greek ship.

Okay. So ancient Greek. Yeah. Like that's how ancient. It's not even Greek. It's Greek. Yeah. It's so ancient.

Um, it's the kind that Odysseus was lashed to when they were going past the sirens. It's like that kind of ship. It's that old. Right? Yeah. And, um, it's fully intact, just laying on its side at the bottom of the Black Sea. It's just beautiful, beautiful little shipwreck. And that would be an ancient galleon, I guess you could call it.

All right. So this is where, like, I don't even know how to talk about this almost because it's so convoluted because it can, it can matter whose ship it originally was. It can matter what was on that ship. It can matter where the ship is now resting in whose waters or if it's international waters or partially on one side or the other, which is when it gets super confusing. Who the ship was leased from? Who was leased from?

Who is in charge of, because most of these aren't accidents. I know, uh, that it is pointed out that sometimes like a scuba diver might find something like this, but usually it's an expedition looking for the stuff specifically. So who runs that? Or whose insurance companies have a claim? And what international agreements are made? And it's just, it's almost like it's so case by case, there really is no rule. Yeah.

That land property was convoluted under undersea archeology property, treasure property is just totally off the charts. So with, um, that was one of the nerdiest sentences I've ever uttered. Yeah. I wrote an article years ago about undersea archeology and I did a lot of that research then and it is just really like basically what happens is, is once something is found, then everyone just lawyers up and starts fighting. Yeah.

Exactly. And I think the reason why, um, it's, it's particularly convoluted and, and, um, contentious for the undersea, um, treasure is that the treasures that they're finding are just so eye-poppingly valuable. Yeah. That it's worth, you know, going to court for 15, 20 years over. Yeah. Billions of dollars in some cases.

Yeah. There was a wreck called the San Jose that was discovered in, it was announced in 2015. I'm not quite sure when Columbia discovered it, but it's off the coast of Cartagena. And in 2015, the Colombian government came forward and said, we found the San Jose. That was a galleon. It was a galleon. It was sunk by the British 300 years ago. It wasn't Garic.

No, no, it was, uh, it was Spanish, but it was transporting gold silver gems from Peru back to Spain to, to finance a war. It was loaded with, with valuables and they think that this wreck today, the valuables aboard are worth between one and 12 billion dollars. Yeah. This is not something that any one of these parties or countries is going to give up on. No. It's the kind of shipwreck.

It's the kind of treasure that can actually affect world markets, like the value of goods on, on world markets above on land, because this stuff has been under the sea and out of the market for so long. When it comes onto the market, it could actually depress the value of the, of like gold because there's so much of it suddenly coming on the market. That's how rich this treasure is. Yeah. And it's funny here, this article you sent, um, there is a UNESCO convention in 2001 on

underwater cultural heritage findings that have best practices. They're not actually like, you know, laws. And they're, they're like, we'd be happy to help out with this, but nobody's called this. That's so UN. Yeah. They, they don't want them involved basically. They're just like, no, we're going to work it out with the lawyers.

They're like, Hey, thanks. Thanks a lot. Just go sit over there until we call you okay. Pretty much. Um, so the, uh, the San Jose has a lot of people arguing over it. For example, Spain is saying, well, it's a Spanish galleon, give us our, give us our money back. Columbia is like, yeah, it's in our coastal waters.

That's our territorial waters. That belongs to us. Peru says, yeah, you guys came and extracted that from our indigenous population back when we were Spanish calling. And that's one that doesn't come up very often, but you think it should, especially in the new world stuff. Yeah. Like that, that was our original stuff to begin with even.

So it should have never been on that boat. Ironically, they probably have the least claim to it, sadly enough, but, um, there's no way they're going to get it. There's a, I wonder though, if they'll get a portion of it though, I think if they said, no, this is, this is a thing, this is legitimate. They could conceivably get caught in, but they're not going to get the whole thing. I don't think anybody's going to get the whole thing free and clear. So there's all these different groups arguing over it and it's big of a mess as it is.

It's actually not the biggest mess of a, um, treasure found aboard a shipwreck. There's a ship called the Notre Dame de Delivrance. Yeah. I think that's right. Yeah. That was, um, that sank 40 miles off of Florida in 1755. I mean, one of just hundreds and hundreds of ship to crash off the coast of Florida. And a U.S. salvage company found it in 2002.

And this is the one that I was talking about. It's partially in international waters, partially as part of the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary. Yep. Uh, the Spaniards leased the ship from the French West Indies company. Right. And so they all have a claim. And then complicating this is the fact that in the United States, uh, in 1987, we passed

the abandoned shipwreck deck, which means all shipwrecks within U.S. waters, uh, which is what, like three miles off of any of our coastlines, yes, um, our U.S. properties. Is that right? Yep. So it's super convoluted. And that's actually the, the territorial waters thing has kind of been the, the toughest one or the, um, the, the, the, the best claim that any country can lay on a ship is now it's in our territorial waters, customarily, that means that's yours, that's yours to deal

with. And when the ship is in international waters or partially in international waters, that's just a whole different ballgame. And even when something's in territorial waters, like Spain's not going to go away. No. You know, when two to $3 billion is on the table, they're going to say, no, we're going to use our diplomats to press, you know, at least getting a portion of this. France will do the same thing.

And the salvers are like, well, hey, wait a minute, this is, this is ours. And actually at first a Florida, um, a Florida judge said, yep, it's yours, free and clear, two to $3 billion booty is yours. Take it, put on this eye patch and this cool hat and go get it. Well, but you have to get Spain's permission to go get it. Right. Exactly. So Spain's going to say, no, we want to have something to do with this.

But that shipwrecked act, the whole, the whole reason why the United States is even involved is from that shipwrecked act of 1987, it's very similar to that UK act where it basically says, nope, it belongs to us, where the United States, it's in our territorial waters. It belongs to us. But here's a significant portion of it, usually like 25% of it. And the point of that is to keep salvers and treasure hunters interested enough that they're actually going out and salvaging these archeological sites, but they're doing it under the jurisdiction of the state or federal government, which says you've got to keep daily logs.

You have to break the wreck site into strings of square meters. You have to catalog everything. You have to have a certified archeologist, a marine archeologist on board throughout the entire voyage overseeing this whole thing. You got to do it right and we'll give you 25% of what we can get for it, which is substantial in some, some cases, but it's not like treasure hunting is like a cheap activity. It's a very expensive undertaking. Yeah.

It's seriously expensive and like they don't just like these treasure hunting companies don't just go in there and say, Hey, I think there's something there. Let's go grab it. I mean, they do all their research because it is so expensive to ensure as much as possible that they will have a claim to it in the end. You know, they don't just go in there willy nilly and hopes that the courts will decide with them. No, no, for sure.

But I mean, I think that's the probably of significant portion of the operating costs of a treasure hunting outfit is the court costs and fees to get the, to, to get the rights to the treasure, I would guess. Yeah. And in this case too, I'm sure France was like Florida judge, like I don't care what you say, but Florida judges have a big say in this. They're about as professional as you could get as far as passing judgment on treasure claims for sunken ships.

Oh yeah. Florida has the most sunken ships of any state in the union, something like 6,000 to 10,000 estimated shipwrecks from piracy, hurricanes, all this stuff. Florida's got it all. So if you're looking for a judge who has experience on ruling on a case like this, Florida's probably your best bet. Yeah. Yeah.

No. That would be my, my suggestion. That's just good advice all around. And it can also, so if you're a treasure hunter, not only can the court costs be killer, you might be put in jail. There's a guy named Tommy Thompson, who's a very famous treasure hunter who found the wreck of the- Edmund Fitzgerald?

No. Oh. Although man, there are a few wrecks that fascinate me more than the Edmund Fitzgerald. I can just sit there and look at those eerie pictures of it all day long. I can, I just sing that song over and over. You shouldn't do that. It'll drive you insane. No.

He found the wreck of the SS Central America, which was a steamer that went down in a hurricane off the coast of South Carolina in 1857 with 425 souls aboard and three tons of gold. And he found it and he went and sold a bunch of stuff and didn't pay his investors. And a judge put him in jail in Ohio where he's been sitting since I think 2015 because he refuses to say where 500 gold coins from the wreck went. He just won't say. He said that he gave them to somebody in Belize, but he can't remember who they are. That's really, that's what his lawyer had to tell the Washington Post.

That's pretty funny. Yeah. I just be like- He gave it to somebody. And he can't remember who. Yeah. I wish we could have been a little bit more like black and white about the shipwreck thing, but it's just, it's just so depends on the case.

Yeah. You know? There is no solid rule. There's a couple of solid rules. There's one above ground where if you are caught digging on federal land, that's a felony. And any stone tool found in the United States belongs to the federal government automatically. Thanks, Gippy. But I would guess unless it's in Texas, in which case the Texas authorities and the

federal authorities would fight with one another over your right to own that stone tool. Oh, that's a good point. So I think that's about it for finders keepers. Good one. Yeah, I thought so too. If you want to know more about finders keepers, go find something and say finders keepers and see what happens.

And then let us know. And in the meantime, we're going to sit here and do listener mail. I'm going to call this Stanford prison, prison experiment follow up. Angry follow up. Yeah. You read this one. Hey guys, just want to say thank you for your episode on Zimbardo. I'm a cognitive psychologist and have been teaching for years and it makes me angry in

a way I have never been angry before. You do your best to fact check and show that you're giving the students. And she's not talking about our show, by the way. Right. She's talking about Zimbardo. You do your best to fact check and show you're giving the students reliable information, but then someone pulls crap like this again, Zimbardo and causes serious problems for us as teachers.

How did I handle this chapter this year? Well, number one, I taught it as normal as the text takes forever to be updated. And number two, I showed them the video ghost of Abu Ghraib. Is it Abu Ghraib? Mm hmm. Abu Ghraib and had to have them write about how Zimbardo study predicted this would happen. And then three had them all listen to your podcast. Now they are all as angry as I am, partially at me for doing that, but I wanted them to

feel the effort they put into it go to waste. But I had a very interesting observation in one class. The publicity and popularity of the study, could it have actually created the dystopian prison environment in part at Abu Ghraib through expectation? Oh, I see, like a self-fulfilling prophecy. I guess so. And was Zimbardo the actual Lucifer in his book, having an effect not only in society as a whole and what we believe about humanity, but how we act.

We now live in his hell. Then she says, thanks again. And that is from Allison Deming from Tri County Tech. Temporarily insane with rage. That's right. I don't blame her. Yeah. That was a good episode, man.

One of the best. Yeah. Thanks, Allison. Yeah. Thanks again with the support. We agree with you wholeheartedly. It's passion. It's not anger.

That's right, man. Or maybe it's anger. I don't want to tell you how you feel. Man, Chuck, you are killing it these days. So if you want to get in touch with us, you can go to stuffyshino.com and check out our social links. I'm at thejoshclarkway.com and we're all via email at stuffpodcast at howstuffworks.com. For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit howstuffworks.com.

On the podcast, Hey Dude, the 90s called David Lasher and Christine Taylor, stars of the cult classic show, Hey Dude, bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces. We're going to use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and dive back into the decade of the 90s. We lived it. And now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. Listen to Hey Dude, the 90s called on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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