Stuff You Should Know - How Exorcism Works

Episode Date: January 6, 2009

Is the idea of possession a misunderstanding of physiological and psychological conditions, or has science failed to account for unknown, legitimate factors? Learn whether exorcism and psychology are mutually exclusive in this podcast from HowStuffWorks. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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They just have way better names for what they call, like what we would call a jackmove or being robbed. They call civil acid. Be sure to listen to the war on drugs on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. That's Chuck, and this is Stuff You Should Know. We're about to tell you some stuff you should know, aren't we, Chuck? We are. You never intro our title like that. I like that.

It's new. I tried it before. I know that you like it, which is why I instituted it. I do. I love to titillate and arouse you. Yeah. Moving on. Chuck, have you ever heard of a guy named Philip K. Dick? Yes, absolutely. He's an author, correct? Yes. He wrote Blade Runner, correct?

Well, I do Android's Dream of Electric Sheep, which was made into Blade Runner. Exactly. And he wrote a Minority Report and a Scanner Darkly, some other ones you may have heard of. Good stuff. And if you can't tell yet, he was a science fiction writer. But one of the more notable things of Dick's life, one of the more notable aspects of Dick's life, was that at one point he became possessed by a being. Really? Another intelligence. He called it like a super alien or something like that.

And it basically took him over and got his life in order. He was a total pillhead, loved to drink wine, really just kind of chased friends off. He just wasn't a really pleasant soul to be around. Right. And this alien kind of comes in and takes him over and all of a sudden he's like getting, you know, back pay from publishers. Wow. He's like writing more. His office is cleaner.

I think he started wearing ties and just all around basically this thing got his life in order. Right. And it wasn't Scientology or anything? No, no. Interesting. As a matter of fact, I think he may have been a critic of Scientology. I'm not sure. Wow. But he was possessed. He believed it till the day he died that something had taken him over and at the very least was helping him.

I've never heard that. Yeah. So that kind of, I think, is a really good segue into exorcism. Right. This was an exorcism that actually benefited somebody. Well, he wasn't exorcised and I don't think he needed to. A possession. Sure. Sure. Now, you know, I think for the most part, when people feel like we're inhabited by something, we feel like it needs to be exorcised, right? Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Got the demons running through you. Exactly. So we kind of, in the Western world in the 21st century, we don't really believe in spirit intrusion much anymore, right? Some of us do. Some do. True. But for the most part, the average American walking realm probably doesn't believe

that they're going to ever be, you know, taken over by a demon or something like that. Or even an angel, probably. Right. True. But this isn't the case for much of the rest of the world. Right. It's very commonly held, spirit intrusion can occur. Uh-huh.

I remember when we were talking about carrying a bride over the threshold. Right. Spirit intrusion. Right. It can be a bad thing. It can cause disease, illness, and it kind of makes you wonder, there's this dividing line that crops up. Is this really just a misunderstanding of a psychological problem? Or is psychology missing the point when there actually is something going on?

Right. And then, you know, a lot of demonic possessions are really people that are psychologically distressed or sometimes even physically. And then epilepsy and things like that. A lot of times are mistaken in some parts of the world. Well, with epilepsy in particular, you can tell you can throw somebody in an MRI machine and look at the parts of their brain and see, you know, oh yeah, this person's definitely epileptic. Right. Of course, the convulsions often give them away as well. Yeah.

But with, you know, schizophrenia, say. Exactly. For many, many eons that was viewed as a spirit intrusion or spirit possession. Right. Which makes sense. I mean, you know, these people with dissociative personality disorder are different people at different times. So you can understand how that would be mistaken as a possession. Sure. In the past, I could. Sure. But still today, I kind of wonder, is it just a clash of worldviews, you know?

Maybe so. Is a psychological disorder just another term for spirit possession when they're really both talking about the same thing? Right. And does it matter? So an interesting angle. Thanks, buddy. So the point is this. Psychology has its own methods of exorcism, antidepressants. Psychotherapy.

And yes, ECT, electroconvulsive therapy, which is still used to this day. Did you know that? I didn't. I think we have the method refined a little more than we used to. Right. But yeah, it's still, they still hook people up with the electrodes and juice them. Actually, I did know that because it happened on six feet under and. Don't tell me. Don't tell me. I'm in season three. Oh, well, then it definitely does not happen on six feet.

Thank you. Thank you for that. Sorry about that. Yeah, no problem. In 1968, five black girls dressed in oversized military fatigues were picked up by the police in Montgomery, Alabama. I was tired and just didn't want to take it anymore. The girls had run away from a reform school called the Alabama Industrial School for Negro Children, and they were determined to tell someone about the abuse they'd suffered there.

Picture the worst environment for children that you possibly can. I believe Mt. Meigs was patterned after slavery. I didn't understand why I had to go through what I was going through and for what. I'm writer and reporter Josie Duffy Rice. And in a new podcast, I investigate how this reform school went from being a safe haven for black kids to a nightmare and how those five black girls changed everything. All that on Unreformed. Listen to Unreformed on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

In 1980, cocaine was captivating and corrupting Miami. Miami had become the murder capital of the United States. They were making millions of dollars. I would categorize it as the Wild Wild West. Unleashing a wave of violence. My God, talking about walking into the devil's den. The car fells. They just killed everybody that was home.

They start pulling out pictures of Clay Williams' body taken out in the Everglades. A world orbiting around a mysterious man with a controversial claim. This drug pilot by the name of Lamora Chester. He never ran anything but grass until I turned over that load of coke to him on the island. Chester would claim he did it all for this CIA. Pulling many into a sprawling federal investigation. So Clay wasn't the only person who was murdered? Oh no, not by a long shot.

I'm Lauren Bright-Pacheco. Join me for Murder in Miami. Listen to Murder in Miami on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. But so we've got this method of dealing with disturbance through psychology. We also have it through spirituality. And specifically, the Catholic Church is really, really big on exorcisms. Yes, they're the only church that I know of that really still practices it.

Yeah, I was raised Catholic. And as you get older, when you're raised in the Catholic Church, everything seems totally normal. This guy is wearing a robe and chanting and burning frankincense. And everybody else was responding with some weird mystical words. The thing is, as you get older, it becomes stranger and stranger. Because as any Catholic knows, the older you get, the further you get away from the Church. Right? So you get a little more objective. You get an objective view of it.

I think that's not necessarily true for all people, but certainly. So, you know, when you look at the Catholic Church objectively or Catholicism, it's deeply rooted in mysticism. And it doesn't strike me as odd at all that the Catholic Church is still very much believes in exorcism, in demonic possession. Yeah, I believe it. Which we should probably give an actual definition of demonic possession. Right.

As the Catholic Church sees it. Well, possession or exorcism? Possession. Well, I know some of the telltale signs. Yeah, let's hear about it. Yeah. Speaking in tongues a lot of times is considered. No, no. Pardon?

No, no. It's not considered part of a demonic position? Speaking in tongues is considered an expression of religious ecstasy. Speaking in foreign languages that one's never encountered or dead languages. Right. That's that's an example. I actually said I actually said speaking in foreign tongues. I just said it very quietly.

Oh, the foreign was it? It was the foreign sign. Foreign was it silent. Yeah. That is true. Knowing things that a person has no way of knowing. Yeah, like, you know, what the Pope's wearing at any given time. Right.

I bet he's wearing a robe and a tall hat. That's what I know. They might possess. Underneath the robe. If you can call that, I imagine they're going to be like, yeah, you know too much. Physical strength beyond what you normally would have. Which we've addressed as well. Right.

And a violent aversion to God, the Virgin Mary or across or other, you know, religious images. Yeah. So that's, you know, pretty much it. If you can fit all these, then, you know, there's a chance that you are possessed by the devil as far as the church is concerned. I didn't see in here head spinning around or vomiting pea soup. No. Or the spider crawl. No. And of course, Chuck's referring to the classic horror film, The Exorcist, which I watched actually this past Halloween.

Really? Not as scary as I remember, but psychologically thrilling. Yeah. Great. And after researching this, I found that if you take Linda Blair out of the scenes. Yes. And you just have the exorcism, the rights of exorcism that are performed by Max von Seidau and the other guy. It's accurate.

It is. It's very accurate. Absolutely. It's pretty much the opposite of the website Garfield minus Garfield, where if you take Garfield out, it turns out that John is either schizophrenic or addicted to methamphetamine. Or possessed by the devil. Possibly. Full circle. Yeah.

So it's the opposite of that. It really a Catholic exorcism or right of exorcism is a series of special prayers. And actually it's a combination of fairly familiar prayers. There's a lot of call and response. Right. There's dousing the possessed individual with holy water using crucifixes and relics. Right. Which can be anything.

Anything associated with the saint, including a body part. There's actually the saints. If you were a saint several hundred years ago, you were destined to be chopped up and do as many little pieces as possible. Really? And sent to churches around the world. Yeah. Relics are huge. Interesting.

Yeah. Well, there you go. Didn't know that either. Well, before this all happens, there's an investigation. I mean, this is when there's a real threat of a possession. You can actually lodge an a query to the Catholic church and they'll send someone out. A lot of times that priest will come with a psychological evaluator just to rule out other things. Sometimes they'll go to a medical doctor, but they actually do a full fledged investigation.

And they said, I think one in 5000 turns out to be what they consider to be a real demonic possession. Or, at the very least, worth using an exorcism for. Yeah, worth giving it a shot. Yeah, I didn't want you to get the impression that I think that the church's approach to exorcism is hokey in any way. I think they take a very methodical approach. They do. And they rule out everything else that it could possibly be.

I think if you decide to perpetrate a fraud, like you're possessed by the devil, you're in for a really long, painful evaluation process. Right. Where you really have to be committed to the bit to follow it through and finally get to the exorcism. And if you're basing it on movies, you'll probably be really disappointed. There's this book that this guy wrote. I cannot remember his name or the name of the book. But he was a sociologist who basically went to exorcisms performed around the country

for several years during his research period. And he describes one where a guy named Warren, who is basically depressed, drinks a lot. Really, his life's pretty out of sorts. And he's come to believe that he's possessed by a diabolical presence, I think, is the church vernacular for it. And basically, the priest just prays for him and there's the holy water and the crucifix and all that. And Warren just kind of sits there looking a little gloomy the whole time. And then that's about that. Right.

And apparently in the book, Warren reported feeling like something had left him. Which is good. Sure. It's a good thing. He said he felt fine, but it was fairly anticlimactic. Right. Like he said no head spinning or anything. I have that book title.

If people want to read it, it's called American Exorcism, Expelling Demons in the Land of Plenty by Michael. See you in EO, kuno, kunio. Kunio. Kunio. Let's go with kunio. Yeah. Kashkari. Kashkari.

In 1968, five black girls dressed in oversized military fatigues were picked up by the police in Montgomery, Alabama. I was tired and just didn't want to take it anymore. The girls had run away from a reform school called the Alabama Industrial School for Negro Children. And they were determined to tell someone about the abuse they'd suffered there. Picture the worst environment for children that you possibly can. I believe Mt. Mags was patterned after slavery. I didn't understand why I had to go through what I was going through and for what.

I'm writer and reporter Josie Duffy Rice. And in a new podcast, I investigate how this reform school went from being a safe haven for black kids to a nightmare, and how those five black girls changed everything. All that on UnReformed. Listen to UnReformed on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 1980, cocaine was captivating and corrupting Miami. Miami had become the murder capital of the United States. They were making millions of dollars.

I would categorize it as the Wild Wild West. Unleashing a wave of violence. My God took a walk into the devil's den. The car kills. They just killed everybody that was home. They start pulling out pictures of Clay Williams' body taken out in the Everglades. A world orbiting around a mysterious man with a controversial claim. This drug pilot by the name of Lamora Chester.

He never ran anything but grass until I turned over that load of coke to him on the island. Chester would claim he did it all for the CIA. Pulling many into a sprawling federal investigation. So Clay wasn't the only person who was murdered? Oh no, not by a long shot. I'm Lauren Bright-Pacheco. Join me for Murder in Miami. Listen to Murder in Miami on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Um, so, uh, yeah, they're kind of anti-climactic, right? But if at the end people like Warren feel like their life has changed, that, you know, if it's, if it's just using their faith to maybe manipulate them even, even if there's no intentional manipulation, but if that's really what's going on in the most objective view, how could, how could it hurt? You know, why, why don't we just run around performing exorcisms all the time? I have an answer for you. Lay it on me.

Sort of. Uh, because there aren't enough priests really to go around that are, that are capable of doing this. The Catholic Church actually, um, appointed 10 priests in 1996, and I think that was already previously won the only guy doing exorcism. So there's now 11, um, at that time at least, and they have a group called the International Association of Exorcists. I noticed this. Yeah, they meet every year. They have a quarterly newsletter. Yeah.

Do you know what I would do to get my hands on that newsletter? Yeah. Apparently they, they share tricks of the trade and tips for one another for exorcisms. Yeah. I would love to get my hands on that. Right. I'd love to sit on one of those meetings, but that's a lot of, a lot of fun. It is.

You know, the, um, the, that's one reason why, you know, we just don't have, or the Catholic Church just doesn't have the manpower to go around performing exorcism. Right. Um, but also there's, there's a couple other problems with exorcism as far as, you know, controversy generated by them. One is what we've talked about the, the psychology versus religion clash. Right. Which has been going on pretty much since medicine came about, um, and basically labeled everybody else's witches or, you know, at the very least, um, simple or what have you, archaic primitive. Right. Yeah.

And that's one problem. If, if we just ran around performing exorcisms, uh, and there were people who had very treatable psychological disorders. Exactly. You know, would the exorcism work or would, would pharmaceuticals be better, some sort of, you know, immersive therapy be better for them. Right. Um, so it could actually do damage. That's true. Which is why the church, I imagine, has psychological evaluations done.

Right. And these are done by professionals from my understanding as well. It's not like the priest is like, Hey, are you crazy? Right. Right. They get a psychiatrist or psychologist outside of the Catholic Church. The, the other problem is the, um, there, there are groups that, that do exorcisms for profit. Yeah.

And this is where it gets a little, uh, I don't know, greedy. Possibly. Um, fake, maybe. There's one, there's one group, um, that is well known for their exorcisms. There's a guy named Bob Larson. Yeah. Bob Larson Ministries. He actually has a show called the real exorcist on the sci-fi channel.

Uh-huh. Um, that should be good. That should be your first clue right there. Exactly. He, um, he runs the spiritual freedom church as far as I know. Um, and he does exorcisms. I don't know that he actually charges for exorcisms, but I think he's, he's really good at, um, drumming up donations.

Well, yeah. And he, and he does this in front of a crowd and he charges for tickets. Does he really? Yeah. Because, uh, apparently you can get a family rate on your tickets to go see these exorcisms. Okay. All right. He gives you a break if you bring the kids along.

Well, I was, I was reading on the, um, spiritual freedom church website, a, um, uh, testimonial from a girl from, named Autumn from my dear esteemed hometown of Toledo, Ohio. Let's hear it. Apparently the spirit, spiritual freedom church rolled through town and held a mass, you know, exorcism or whatever, spectacle. Right. And, um, Autumn, it turned out, had been possessed by a several centuries old, uh, African woman, uh, named Mooshita.

Okay. Now Mooshita apparently means whore in whatever ancient African vernacular this, that, that her name comes from. Okay. And, um, she basically was pretty much into committing acts of whoredom in, you know, reverence for an African deity. Okay. So she became promiscuous.

Yes. Well, it was really Mooshita, but it was, it was Autumn who was running around committing acts of whoredom. This is not my word, by the way. Right. I actually didn't realize whoredom was a word until this is very afternoon. Is that her right there? That's her.

She's kind of cute. Yeah. So, um, Autumn goes to see, uh, Bob Larson, who exercises the, the demons and apparently you could see a, um, an immediate change in Autumn and she was very grateful. So again, we, we come to this, this fine line as far as I'm concerned. Right. If Autumn's no longer running around being promiscuous, as you said, right, she no longer feels like she's out of control with her life.

Does it matter whether it was an exorcism or antidepressants or whether she paid for this or not? Right. I come to Jesus moment and a seeing of the light. Does it matter? No. There's all kinds of ways of reaching that moment of clarity. I agree.

If you ask me. I agree. So, uh, as far as I'm concerned to each his own. Sure. That's our motto here. If you want to pay, yeah, it pretty much keeps us out of hot water. Right. Uh, so if you want to pay for your exorcism, there's plenty of places you can do it.

Uh, just go on to a Google search and I believe you type in exorcist and you will find what you're looking for. And good luck. Yeah. So, uh, stick around because we have a new bit here. We like to fill out time as much as possible. We're going to call it correction time. Right.

It's a good title. It's coming up right now. Um, so Chuck, we have a correction from one of our listeners. Right. This was in from a couple of our podcasts. We mentioned this famous study in Massachusetts. Let's go to a clip of Chuck being wrong. So what they've learned is that there was this big study.

I know that you love this study, the Farmington Heart Study. I love this study. It's enormous. It's sweeping. This is what a study should be like. Right. So that's, that's me and that's my voice and it is not Farmington. No.

It is actually Framingham. Not even, there's no ton involved. There's no farm. It is a frame. Yeah. And this is pointed out by one of our listeners. Glenna Carpenter wrote us in. Thank you, Glenna, for pointing that out.

Yes. And being nice about it. Glenna wanted herself a new Ford Focus actually for pointing that out. Yeah. So if you want to point out something that we've done wrong or tell us how much you like us. Or hate us. Yeah, more like us though.

Okay. You can send an email to stuffpodcastathowstuffworks.com. The War on Drugs is the excuse our government uses to get away with absolutely insane stuff, stuff that'll piss you off. The cops, are they just like looting? Are they just like pillaging? They just have way better names for what they call like what we would call a jack move or being robbed. They call civil answer for it. Be sure to listen to the war on drugs on the iHeart radio app, apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

Crush boy bander each week to guide you through life. Tell everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen. So we'll never ever have to say bye, bye, bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app, apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts.