Stuff You Should Know - Insomnia: Why you can't sleep

Episode Date: July 18, 2023

Insomnia is rough stuff. Listen in and learn all about why you can't fall asleep and what you can do about that.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, this is Danny. In Samantha, and we're the host of Stuff Mom Never Told You, a podcast about intersectional feminism and all the ways it impacts all of us. And now we're coming out with an audiobook with amazing soundscapes that takes an even deeper look at some of the topics important to us. We discuss the people supporting movements like civil rights, the Jane Collective Disability Rights, and LGBTQ Plus Rights, available August 29. Pre-order your copy of Stuff Mom Never Told You,

the feminist past, present, and future, now where audiobooks are sold, or get yours at stuffyfuturetrees.com. So how does a half American, half-nicorrogly, and party girl from New Orleans with absolutely no journalism experience? Break the biggest story of the eighties. That's what journalista is all about.

I'm a woman, wife, theater, t-shirt, not wearing a bra, curses like a saver. I got balls bigger than any man. Dan Rathie used to call me his secret weapon. Listen to Journalista every Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey everybody, we're going on tour and you can come out and see us in Orlando on August 12th, Nashville on September 6th and we're going to wrap it all up on September 9th in our hometown of Atlanta, GA. That's right, and these are the last shows of the year. This has been a really good show this year. We're super excited about it and this is going to be your only chance to be in the theater

with us and, you know, like, 1,600 of your closest pals. So go to stuffyshinow.com and check out our tour page for links and information, and you can also go to link tree slash sysk for the same stuff. We'll see you guys this August and September. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and Jerry's here. We're all feeling bright.

I push you tailed and chipped. We're firing to you. Not me, I'm sleepy. Are you really sleepy? Yeah. How do you sleep? Uh, like a side sleeper or just a... Not me, I'm sleepy. Are you really sleepy? Yeah. How do you sleep? Like side sleeper or just like that? How's your sleep?

Generally? Yeah. My sleep is pretty good. I get up a lot to go potty. Me too. So. But I've gotten way better probably since I've had a kid of being able to fall back

to sleep pretty easily, whereas I used to not be so good at that, and that's a real key to getting good sleep is, because very few people I think adults are, I mean, some are, but are just so sound that they're just rocks through the night. You got to be able to get back to sleep. If you start thinking about stuff, then you're toast. Yeah. Some people have trouble falling back asleep. Some people chuck get this, have trouble falling asleep initially even. I have a lot of empathy for people with chronic insomnia, which we're talking about insomnia. It just sounds like a terrible thing.

We've talked about fatal familial insomnia. Yeah. And we've talked about how much sleep do people need. That was one of the early, early ones. And as science phasing out, sleep, that was about new tropics. Yeah, but I was really surprised that we hadn't just done a regular old insomnia.

That was too. But big thanks to the National Institute of Health and Sleep Foundation, our old friends at healthstuffworks.com, University of Pennsylvania, Harvard. I got a lot of different sources for this one. And here we go with insomnia. Okay, I guess we're starting everybody. It was a preamble.

So I thought that this definition of insomnia was about as succinct as it can be. And it's a sleep disorder characterized by difficulty falling asleep, staying asleep or both. This is very important. Even if you have ample time to fall asleep or sleep, even if you have a bedroom environment conducive to restful sleep. So you got everything you need to sleep and you still can't sleep. You still can't stay asleep or both. Yeah. If you, and we'll get to all the different kinds, it gets a little confusing. Actually, I'm still not 100% sure how to classify the different types of insomnia.

I think they roll it all together. Yeah, true. But if you, you know, if you live next door to, or above an apartment above a loud club or if you Recently had like a big shift in your work hours like these are all reasons that you might not be able to get the sleep And you may have insomnia, but and again, we'll go over all these in more detail But that is like a temporary or transient insomnia Transient if it's if it's really just a few days, like if you have jet lag or something,

and then if it's a few days into like a week or two, then it travels to, what's the other gun? Chronic. No, no, acute insomnia, and then chronic is the really, really tough one. Right. Well, we'll break all that out, but we should talk a little more about

what happens within insomnia and like what's required to actually get a diagnosis. Because it's not enough to show up and say like, I'm having trouble sleeping. You have to say I'm having trouble sleeping and I can't finish the sentence during the day because I'm so tired. Yeah, and you also,

the first thing your doctor's gonna say is like how much sleep you're getting during the day because I'm so tired. Yeah, and you also, the first thing your doctor's gonna say is like how much sleep are you getting because as we went over in our, do you really sleep? I'll say none. Do you really need to sleep episode? And it's a big swath, it's interesting when you look at the breakdown of how much sleep

you need as you age. I can't remember what it was for pre-teen. It's like a million hours a day. It was a lot, but a 13 to 18, it's eight to 10 hours. And then they say, between 18, once you hit 18, all the way up into 64 years of age, you need about six to eight hours. No, no, I'm sorry, seven to nine hours.

And then once you get a little bit older than 65, that actually goes down to seven to eight instead of seven to nine hours. And then once you get a little bit older than 65, that actually goes down to seven to eight instead of seven to nine. You know what sucks though is I saw not necessarily that you need less sleep as you age, but that you get less sleep as you age, whether you want to or not, because your sleep deteriorates, your ability to sleep deteriorates because your brain's shot over time. Yeah, and you, and I know that you can testify to this, but as you get older, the ability, for most people to sleep in is really what goes. I'm glad for that.

I've actually started getting up earlier and earlier, and I like it. No kidding. Yeah. Why? Do you know some of the timestamps on emails I've sent you? Yeah, it's not like I get alerts or anything. It's not like you're waking me up, but I'll see emails from you in like the 604 range.

I'm like, all right, Josh is at it, man. Yeah, yeah, I've already had my coffee and gone for a jog by then. I get up early too, and I'm glad for it because I like mornings and I think a lot of good work is done in the morning and that's what Dr. C. That's what Dr. C. I can sleep until 8 a.m. That's a that's a coup. I would feel like I wasted the

entire day if I slept till eight. I would feel like I must have raved all night if I woke up at eight. But sometimes I'm the earliest riser in my house like on weekends. Emily can still sleep. I mean, she has bouts of insomnia for sure, but when she sleeps, she can rock it, man. That's awesome. Yeah, 10 o'clock or so if it happens. Pretty enviable. No kidding. Yeah, I haven't done that in a really long, long time.

How does Yumi sleep? She sleeps fine. I mean, she sleeps. But did she get up earlier? Or did she sleep a little later? She gets up. She's awake earlier than she gets up early or did she sleep a little later? She gets up, she's awake earlier, then she gets up because Momo sleeps in later.

So there's just like morning bed relaxation? Yeah, and you mean doesn't want to disturb Mo because Mo will follow her out and like it will affect her last like hour of sleep. So yeah, she hangs out with Mo and does a- Plus, hey man. Hey man. That weekend, spend that first hour in bed doing stuff

is very nice and relaxing. Totally. You mean like you're in barbecue? All right, so Insomnia in Latin literally means no sleep. And they had to settle on a number. It really varies on how long it takes people to fall asleep, obviously. But they had to get on a number. It really varies on how long it takes people to fall asleep, obviously. But they had to get together, finally, and say, we've got to come up with a number everybody

for what you should shoot for. What they eventually landed on was 20 minutes to fall asleep as what they consider, sort of the, quote, unquote, normal range. And if you're going well, well beyond that, then you may have insomnia. Yes. Yeah, that's weird. I think that you usually need 30 to 45 minutes to fall asleep. I don't know if that's just on the nights where you get sleep

or if that alone qualifies you for insomnia. Because... Yeah, because 30 doesn't... I mean, that's only 10 minutes more. No, but that would qualify as difficulty falling asleep, which the term for that is sleep onset insomnia. And that's if you're really trying to go to sleep, you're not laying there and scrolling through your social needs. Right, and we'll see that trying to go to sleep can have a counterproductive effect on

people with insomnia, because there's a type of insomnia where you are worried you're not going to get sleep so much that you can't fall asleep. Yeah, and that's one of the biggest I think things about insomnia. If you really have bad insomnia is the worry and even the hours before bedtime people will start to worry. And that's just such a sad way to live, you know. Yeah, the idea of thinking about your bedroom is a place of dread. I know, man. It is really, really sad to me. And I love my bedroom. Yes, me too. And I hope that everyone with insomnia gets over it eventually because everyone deserves good sleep.

Yeah, and you know, because I was saying that lack of sleep can cause all sorts of medical health issues because your body needs sleep, not to mention accidents that can happen when you're too sleepy, whether it's falling asleep at the wheels or if you, you know, work a shift job and you're running machinery and stuff like that, all kinds of bad things have happened

because you haven't had enough sleep. Yes. And so you say, okay, well, this is a disorder that affects a lot of people. Did you say how many people have it? We didn't go with the stats. Why don't you hit them with something? Okay, I'm taking the Stat-Man role for today. All right, I'm going to take a quick little micro-sleep.

As many as 70 million Americans have some sort of sleep disorder which would include insomnia and that at any given night There's 10% of people in the United States are having trouble sleeping That's a lot of people that's 25 million something like that Yeah, and that eventually about two thirds of people will experience insomnia to some degree or another. Yeah, I also saw some worldwide statistics that said that, and this wasn't necessarily just insomnia, but 62% of people all around the world

say they don't get enough sleep. Yeah. That's a lot, you know, in the majority. Yeah, it's sad. People aren't sleeping enough. And it's supposedly a pretty modern problem because I saw some sleep doctor. I think he was a neurologist and he was saying like,

you know, we have ways of storing up energy later on because humans as a species have encountered, you know, feast or famine cycles before. So our bodies evolved to like store food for a while in times of leanness, right? Don't have that with sleep. Like we don't have a way to store, like a wakefulness or something like that or energy

in our brain for times when we don't get sleep. And he was saying that's evidence right there that we've never as a species encountered difficulty sleeping before. That is a very new thing. That's really interesting. Yeah, I thought so too. And not surprising. There is not a single, you can't point to a single cause, there are all kinds of reasons

someone might have insomnia. But most of them, as far as like non-psychological causes, there are many, many, many physiological arousals that might keep you awake. And it's, you know, it's a bedtime, it's not when you want them. So like your body temperature might be up, or your heart rate might be up, or your cortisol levels, or other hormones might be jumping around. And this is happening at bedtime, which is not when you want that stuff to happen. You may have also gotten it from, it could be genetic, might have something to do with your age.

I think women are more likely to have bouts of insomnia than men. Especially if they are pregnant. Oh, big time. It's like 80 something percent, right? Yes. Yeah. And if you, it can also be comorbid with a lot of different kinds of mental health disorders, especially things like depression

and anxiety. I think it was something like 80, 85% of people with depression also have insomnia. Ian. So let's dig in a little more to these categories. I think it was something like 85% of people with depression like also have insomnia. Yeah. So let's dig in a little more to these categories. These baffling, confusing categories, okay? Sure. You mentioned transient insomnia.

That's a day or two or a couple of days. Say you have a good example as an upcoming deadline at work. Right. Keeping you up. Totally makes sense. But once the deadline comes and goes, no matter what, you're probably gonna be able to sleep again.

If you have a longer term, say, if you have a much bigger problem or a much more extended thing that's making you upset, that would probably translate into that acute insomnia. And then anything over, I saw three months, I saw a month, but if you have trouble sleeping at least three days a week for longer than three months, my friend have skated, unfortunately, into chronic insomnia. Yeah, and I think part of the diagnosis too is it has to be affecting your daily, your wake time as well, right?

Right. Yes. So, you're not able to concentrate at work. Maybe your relationships are suffering. Like it's really kind of wrecking your daytime hours as well. Yeah. You turn into Edward Norton in Fight Club. So, here's my question, because I thought I had it sorted. Now, I'm not really sure, because the DSM, and then the, what's the official sleep manual call that I can't remember?

It's not a DSM. Sleep Bible. Yeah, sure, let's call it that. But they've kind of changed things over the years to just to confuse people, but there's also primary and secondary and insomnia, right? Yes. And I don't believe this is the case anymore. I think they used to divide it up until very recently.

But primary insomnia was where the insomnia itself is the disorder. There's not another cause. It's not comorbid with something. It's the problem itself. And they further broke it down into three subcategories of primary insomnia. Psychophysiological, idiopathic and paradoxical. Yeah, idiopathic literally means there's no cause, and that's the one that they basically got rid of completely. Although I did see that there was still some debate going on, I'm sure there's

still some people like that don't want to give that up for some reason. Yeah, they're like They really love the name They basically said though that like that there is a reason behind I think idiopath It was like, you know, you're you're sort of a kid that can't sleep and then you're an adult who can't sleep And they're just never is any reason and they're basically saying like that's really not true You can vince throughout your life that there really is a monster in your closet. You just can't shake it. That's right. There's also that psychophysiological one I said where this is the one where you're worried about sleep. And supposedly all it

takes is one, one night where there's trouble sleeping for somebody with psychoso's physiological insomnia to start worrying that they're not going to get sleep, and then that worry leads them to not get sleep. It's like a social-filling prophecy, and that's its own subtype. And then there's that paradoxical one, right? Paradoxical is sort of confusing because it is a paradox, and I guess those are confusing, but that means you have experienced sleeplessness, but you don't have the bad effects during the day, somehow. Yeah, let's just strange. Yeah. And then there's secondary insomnia, and that's where the insomnia is, it arises from a disorder. It's secondary to the actual real issue,

where if you solve the first issue, the insomnia should reasonably be expected to go away. Yeah, and that's always been sort of the lion's chair cases, like 80% or more. And I think I read that they basically combined everything because they were like, the treatment's not gonna be that wildly different because there are only certain things you can try

and we should try these for everyone that has insomnia. Plus it's not a good look for psychology as a feel that there is an entire category of, we don't know insomnia. Yeah, true. So some of the things that can trigger secondary insomnia, you mentioned some people at risk like pregnant people or the elderly as you age, but also the people with depression, anxiety

disorder, bipolar disorder. Apparently, 85% of people who have clinical depression also have insomnia. And there's also a lot of drugs that can keep you up as well. Ironically, those same people who have depression, their treatment for depression, SSRIs can actually keep them up and give them insomnia as well. So they would have double secondary insomnia, it sounds like. as well. So they would have double secondary insomnia, it sounds like. Yeah, there are all kinds of... And these are drugs that people are very popular for a lot of things, like cardiovascular disease and asthma and allergies and beta blockers and alpha blockers, like all kinds of very common drugs. One of these side effects oftentimes is sleeplessness.

So, you know, you always have to take that into consideration for the picture of your overall health. Right. Chuck, I think it's high time we took a break. Let's do it. Okay. From I Heart Podcasts, everyone has their limits. I never confronted a situation like this. I just thought it was just a really terrible moral thing. A line they won't cross.

I was stunned and I just said, no, we're killing people. You may never have to face that decision. When you find yourself at that line... Thoughts racing, hearts racing. And somebody needs to just for once give everybody the whole truth. Like this is evil. And the only person who can sound the alarm is you.

I wasn't just gonna sit silently by. From I Heart Podcasts, these are the whistleblowers. If you are disloyal, then things are going to happen. If you speak out, you will pay. You will pay. You should be prosecuted. When power corrupts, conscience is the last line of defense. I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to the whistleblowers on the iHeart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Leverand Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of the Leverand Cox show.

You may remember my award-winning first season? I've been pretty busy, but there's always time to talk to incredible guests about important things. People like me have been screaming for years, we've got to watch the Supreme Court, what they're doing is wrong, what they're doing is evil, they will take things away, and I can only hope that dobs is that like Pearl Harbor moment. Girl, you and I both know what it took to just get through the day in New York City and get home in one piece. And so the fact that we're here and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know, that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. The only reason that you might think, as Chase said, that we're always measurable,

is because people are constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to the Leverand Koch Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share. the Pen Pals podcast with Daniel Van Kirk and Rory Skoval. We are both stand-up comedians, we're actors, we're writers, but now most of all, we are your pen pals. Every single episode, we get two letters that we read from our listeners, our new pen pals. It can be about anything going on in their life,

and sometimes we're also joined by guests, like Will Ferrell. I'm gonna bring you up in front of the group, and I'm gonna punch you as hard as I can, the stomach. Rose Byrne. This is West Hollywood, we keep clay. Judd Apatow, if you use I-D's by Dre,

is that considered Andy Mandi-Wood? Conor-Brion, I'm just showing you that my mind is quick, if not that funny, and Mandy Moore. We're all crossing the line together. Listen to the Pimp House podcast on Will Fale's Big Money Players Network on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast,

or wherever you get your podcast. Sincerely, your new pen pals, Daniel van Kirk and Rory Skowl. Hey, I have another stat for you before we get started again. Let's hear it, Stat, man. Stat, man, brother. I saw that. Sorry. You're sleep deteriorates with your ages, what I was saying earlier, right?

They apparently quantified it. You lose about 27 minutes per night, each decade from middle age. Mm, middle age meaning in your 40s? That's what I'm guessing. I think it was the beginning of middle age. And I guess I'll say I feel middle age. So in your 50s, about a half hour less in your 60s, that would be about an hour less.

Yep, 70s, hour and a half. 70s, hour and a half. 80s doesn't even talk about it. Oh, man. That's depressing. That's not where you're like, oh, I don't need any sleep. I'm a senior citizen.

It's like, my sleep sucks now compared to how it was when I was younger. Yeah, yeah, that's no good. I saw some other low risk categories, or I'm sorry, high risk categories, that are not surprising, but maybe often overlooked. And one was low income households and people, oftentimes, having somnia because of that stuff. Something you might not think about much.

Yeah, worrying about things like bills or paying rent or giving groceries and all that stuff. That will keep you up at night and that qualifies as a somnia. Obviously, anyone suffering chronic pain, diabetes is another one. And then the sleep apnea and restless leg syndrome and the Jimmy leg stuff like that. I knew you were going to say it. If you didn't say it, I was going to say it. Yeah, that's all going to keep you up more. And again, something like restless leg syndrome might wake you up, but it's that ability to get back to sleep is when it becomes a big problem.

Yeah, so an inability to fall back asleep is sleep maintenance insomnia. Oh, it's always great terms associated with this stuff. They get really specific. Sleep is one of the more studied things. You bet your sweet bippy it is, Chuck. As far as the diagnosis, like you were talking about you can't just stroll in and say like I can't sleep and they're say here's some drugs to help you. Well they might. They had actually the might so forget I said that. Scratch that. But it does start with you telling your doctor because they're not with

you in the bedroom so unless you're married to a doctor. So you do go in and say, I can't sleep. What they're probably going to do is say, well, really describe that. And they may give you something right away or they may say, well, why don't you keep a sleep diary for a week? Because someone might just say, like, I don't really know. I just know that I wake up a lot and stuff. And the sleep diary is what makes the patient really kind of track what's going on to help both you and the doctor, like helping you help yourself.

Yeah, and they're not just going to say, I don't know, they're going to be like, I don't know, okay, I haven't slept in two weeks, okay, get off my back. Yeah, you see these bags under my eyes? So with the sleep diary, it's pretty straightforward stuff. You know, how much did you drink that day? Would you eat that day? Did you exercise that day? What time?

What time did you go to bed? How long did it take for you to get to sleep? Just little details like that that you take for granted when your sleep isn't problematic. Right. But that you can really kind of observe and come up with some real easy things that you can change in your life

that might help you go to sleep. There's something called sleep hygiene. Yeah, I mean, that's what you're describing basically is someone's sleep hygiene, whether it's good or bad. Right, so what is sleep hygiene check, which is better than hygienic utensil, but still not great? Well, it's exactly what you were saying, which is, do you exercise too close to your sleep?

Were you looking at a screen that emits blue light? That's a big one. Right, but it's a huge one these days, of course, like right before you go to sleep. How, you know, did you eat? What did you drink? You had any kind of stimulant, and alcohol alcohol is really bad as well like drinking alcohol even though this not something you might think of as a stimulant did you do a big hogs lake of cocaine right before you went to bed sure the sleep hygiene

it's sort of all the things that go into um you know do you have good good light blocking in your room, sound blocking, like all of the stuff that goes into a good night sleep is sleep hygiene. Right. And so all those things you don't want to do, like actually you think exercising would be a good thing to do. No, it's actually, it really energizes you, if you've ever paid attention after you, you exercise like yes, your body is so, so, so sore and you're kind of slow, but you feel good. You don't want to do that

You might actually want to take up yoga before you sleep Yeah, it makes me sleepy. Yeah, it's like especially if you do specifically yoga design for bedtime Which is basically just some like kind of light stretches 10, 15 minutes. If you're having trouble sleeping and you don't try bedtime yoga, you're welcome. Yeah, yeah, I do morning yoga, and I find that I want to take a nap after. Yeah, it feels good though. I love you.

It does. They also say as far as your sleep hygiene, that you want to have a regular, I mean, if you're doing it right, I know it's hard for people, but you want to have a regular, I mean, if you're doing it right, I know it's hard for people, but you try to have a regular bedtime and wake time, and that includes weekends. So if you're having trouble sleeping and you're doing that thing where you're like, you're staying up on the weekends and stuff like that, you're not doing yourselves any favors.

No. Also, you want your bedroom to be conducive to sleep. Remember, that was one of the things that Insomnia had to call you had to have enough time and a place to sleep. That was great. And they say your bedroom should be only used for sleeping and sex. That's it. And only if you're only if you're a consenting adult above 18 and you're in a loving relationship. Okay, dad. So, um, which makes a lot of sense because you come to train yourself, you associate your bed with sleeping so that when you go to bed and you see your bed and you're in your bedroom, you fall asleep much more quickly because you've trained yourself to think of that's the place that I sleep

That's not for doing taxes right? Notting a lot of cocaine. It's it's where I sleep Yeah, you know our buddy John Hodgman has long established precedent that He feels very strongly that you should Have the if you're in a partnered relationship, have the very largest bed that you can afford without it being like a financial burden and that will fit. Even if it doesn't fit that good, he says you should get one. If you can afford it, like just squeeze it in there. And he says the ideal coupled sleep

situation is to completely separate bedrooms separated by a courtyard with a fountain in the middle. And that's how you get the best sleep. Yeah. Yeah. No, that people people weren't meant to sleep together. It's it's definitely a thing that I think people are finally like, okay, this might not be the best idea. Like, we might need to find some other way around. People have come up with work rounds. Apparently, more and more architects are being asked to create two primary bedrooms rather than just the one. Hey, man, if you can pull that off, I say go for it. It doesn't, doesn't mean anything about

your marriage that you want to have good sleep. So just get ready. You can even cuddle together and then say, and good night and then get up and go to your separate places. Yeah. And in the morning, you can scary on in there and jump into bed and cuddle in the morning if you want. I say this as someone who does this. We're not smart enough. We sleep together and keep each other up all night.

Do you really? Not really. I mean, our animals will keep us up. Yeah, I feel bad for Emily. The cats literally lay on top of her body. Right. Two cats laying on top of her body. Yeah. You mean does not she has dog in the foot space. It's a problem. Yeah. So Momo will will tap you me to roll over and yeah, and or she'll say like, I want to get on the other side of you. And rather than just climb over, you me, she'll wake her up to let her know she's about to climb over. Yeah. And you me's not the best at sleep maintenance. So it takes her a while to get back to sleep.

So yeah, and then other times I snore apparently, I'm told. So there'll be times where I'm just like, okay, you need some sleep. I'm going to sleep out on the couch tonight. I've heard you snore before. Really? Guatemala, baby. So I do snore. I mean, hey, you snored in Guatemala. That's all I know. Yeah. I don't know if it was country specific. That's the only time we've bedded down together. I know everyone thinks we sleep in our own bunk room. Right.

But getting back to Yumi and Momo, that's like proof that you can be a small dog and still disrupt sleep. Oh yes. It's not like size necessarily. And then also don't forget, Yumi stays in bed to let Momo sleep in. That's how kind and generous Yumi is to mo.

Man. And how much mo takes advantage of you. I'd be elbowing that dog. That's how kind and generous you me as Samo. Man. And how much Moe takes advantage of you. I'd be elbowing that dog. Do you remember the spoon last night? You couldn't because she'd just look at you and blink a few times and you'd be like, do whatever you want.

Doe eyes, I love it. We talked about TV. You definitely shouldn't watch. I mean, everyone, that's generally when people watch TV or at least you should, if you sit around watching TV all day, then that's a problem in and of itself. But people, I think, generally watch TV at night, is in their evening viewing. But try and cut it off and give yourself a transition period before you actually try to fall asleep.

Or, and this is easy if you are on like a device or a laptop or something, there's, you can switch over from blue light to a warmer light and it will have less of an effect on you. Your TV can do that bully for you. One of the other things that if you have trouble sleeping is getting your TV out of your bedroom. Remember like the bed is for sleeping. It's not for watching TV.

It is for me. I'm just saying if you have trouble sleeping, this is easy fix for you. You watch TV and then you go to bed. You don't go to bed and watch TV. If you have trouble sleeping, do what you want. I mean, but that's just an easy solution if you're having trouble sleeping. Oh no, for sure. If I had trouble sleeping, then I would get that TV out of there for sure. Um, and I think sort of one of the takeaways there is, is, is to make going to bed, like a transition from doing something to doing something else. However, as we'll see, and we'll talk about this in a little bit, like, sometimes that transition can bring on the panic

of like a crap, like I have insomnia, and now I'm going to the dreaded place. This is so sick. And we'll talk about work around there. Should we take another break or should we wait? I think we should take a break. Okay, let's take a break and we'll take another little nap. We'll be right back. I'm going to take a break and we'll take another little nap. We'll be right back.

I'm going to take a break and we'll take another little nap. We'll be right back. I'm going to take a break and we'll take another little nap. We'll be right back. I'm going to take a break and we'll take another little nap. We'll be right back. I'm going to take a break and we'll take another little nap. We'll be right back.

I'm going to take a break and we'll take another little nap. We'll be right back. I'm going to take a break and we'll take another little nap. We'll be right back. I'm going to take a break and we'll take another little nap. We'll be right back. I'm going to take a break and. I just thought it was just a really terrible moral thing. A line they won't cross. I was stunned and I just said, no, we're killing people. You may never have to face that decision. When you find yourself at that line,

thoughts race in, hearts race in. And somebody needs to just for once give everybody the whole truth. Like this is evil. And the only person who can sound the alarm is you. I wasn't just going to sit silently by. From I Heart Podcasts, these are the whistleblowers. If you are disloyal. Then things are going to happen.

This could go disgrace to our country. You won't pay. He should be prosecuted. When power corrupts, conscience is the last line of defense. I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to the whistleblowers on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name's LeVern Cox.

I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of the LeVern Cox Show. You may remember my work-winning first season? I've been pretty busy, but there's always time to talk to incredible guests about important things. People like me have been screaming for years. We've got to watch the Supreme Court what they're doing is wrong, what they're doing is evil. They will take things away, and I can only hope that dobs is that like Pearl Harbor moment.

Girl, you and I both know what it took to just get through the day in New York City and get home in one piece. And so the fact that we're here and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know, that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. The only reason that you might think, as Chase said, that we're always miserable, is because people are constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to the Leverand Koch Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get

your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share. I'm Larsa Pippin from the Real Housewives of Miami. I'm Marcus Jordan, CEO of Trophy Room. We decided to launch this podcast, Separation and Anxiety. We can't live without each other. We can't. And I think we go through Separation and Anxiety when we're not together.

We kind of want to share our stories. We're going to talk about everything and be brutally honest as far as relationships, whether it's your boyfriend, kids, even at work. There's no subject that we won't tackle on this podcast. Telling you everything. Listen to separation and anxiety with Larson Marcus on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. So are we at the place where we talk about fixing it?

Fixing it in not just in ways of improving sleep hygiene. Yeah, I think so. Because the other ways are basically a few that's its drugs, which we'll talk about, and then a couple of different therapies and sleep retraining. Yeah, they almost sound mean, but apparently they're really effective some of the retraining. Yeah, there's some, they almost sound mean, but apparently they're really effective some of the retraining. Yeah. Let's talk about it, Chuck.

All right. Well, obviously relaxation techniques, meditation, controlled breathing, all these sort of low level relaxing behavior therapies can really help you out if you can get in that kind of mind space. Yes. And then we talked about how just the idea of not being able to go to sleep can make you lose sleep and cause insomnia, just the fear of that. So there's a technique called remaining passively awake, where you're like, I don't care if I go to sleep or not, I'm just staying up, it doesn't matter. And if I fall asleep then great, if I don't, whatever.

It's like you're changing your mindset so that you're not worried about it. You're just kind of taking a more casual approach to it. And apparently that can have the effect of removing the anxiety enough that you will fall asleep kind of, whether you mean to or not. Yeah, I just, man, I can't imagine what it's like to be so desperate that you're trying

all these different things. And imagine even trying these things will bring on anxiety. I have seen a thing where the bedroom can be such a, like they recommend that you just, once you leave your bed in the morning, if you can, if you're in a, you know, studio apartment or something, then that really stinks. But like, close that bedroom door and do not go in there at all all day long. Put it close on it.

Like it's not there, yeah. Exactly. Put a lock on the door. What else? What about supplements? Well, one of the ones that people use a lot took is melatonin. It's a natural supplement. They, as a matter of fact, they make it some of it from the pineal glands of animals. Did you know that? I did. I think most of it synthesized, but I did know that some of it came from animal parts.

Yeah, and you don't want those. You want the synthetic ones, or maybe ones from microorganisms, but they say like, yeah, you can take melatonin, if you have like maybe jet lag, you can take it for a night or two, or if you have transient insomnia, or your shit has just changed, you're doing shift work and it's just changed. Melatonin can help, it does, our brains produce it in response to darkness

and it does help us sleep. The thing is, is over time, prolonged use, like if you have chronic insomnia, you do not want to use melatonin, because it can have all sorts of deleterious effects. Like, because it controls not just how you sleep, but also your blood vessel tone, your body temperature, your blood sugar, and you can mess with those things inadvertently over time by taking melatonin. Yeah, and that goes for parents, you know, they have the kids sleep gummies. And we will use those very like a half of one very judiciously, but the jury's kind of still out,

but I don't know, for me, you don't wanna be giving your kid a sleep aid every single night. That's a lot of legal metaphors you just used. Well, I just, I have seen all kinds, I don't think all the evidence is in on kids taking melatonin. But to me, that's reason enough to where you wouldn't wanna give your kid a melatonin gummy

every night, even though you can be desperate as a parent when your kid won't go to sleep. I mean, they used to use and probably still use like Ben and Drill, right? Didn't that not kid's out? I don't know. I'm pretty sure some parents do use that. Really?

Yeah. And then cough syrup, if you're really desperate, I'm sure. parents do use that. Really? All right. Yeah. And then cough syrup if you're really desperate, I'm sure. There are other supplements. There's not a ton of like scientific evidence for stuff like a rheumotherapy to fall asleep and stuff like that and other supplements. But like, you know, if it's safe to try, then you can give it a whirl is what I think. As far as that stuff goes, like try someone wrote a room with therapy, it might work for

you. I don't think he's going to hurt. Probably not, unless it like catches your curtains on fire. Like trip to fan is another one in Valerian. Yeah, Valerian. He's over the counter sucks. I don't know if it was, I've never taken it as a pill. I've always made tea from Valerian root.

Yeah, and it's an acquired taste for sure and acquired smell, but it does have a very mellowing effect on me for sure. Yeah, and CBD, you know what? I admit to look into this, because there are all kinds of CBD gummies and things like that, like sleep gummies. So have you ever, have you taken CBD gummies and been able to, like, notice any difference

in your sleep or anything? Well, I don't need them for sleep, so I haven't tried it. Okay. But I know people who do. And they report good things from it? Yeah, but, you know, who knows? We should do it on CBD because it's sort of the Wild West. It is. Did you see Woody Harrelson's brother has his own line of it?

Matthew McConaughey. And he doesn't say he's Woody Harrelson's brother, but his last name is Harrelson. And if he's not Woody Harrelson's brother, I will eat a hat. I have a few of them. You saw that thing about him, McConaughey, maybe being brothers for real. No. Yeah, that was recent. They discovered, I can't remember, so I'm not going to try and act like I remember the

exact terms, but it was something about some, they found some possible family link. Wow. And there's a lot of similarities with them and they're very, very close friends and a lot of like and they were both kind of like, man, I wonder if this is true. So I'm not sure if they were looking into it or not. So I think her mom, while her, while McConaughey's mom was divorced from his dad, and they eventually got remarried at least once,

I think that she knew Woody Harrelson's dad and was like in the same town at the same time, like nine months before, one of them was conceived or something. I think it was something like that. Yeah. So we can't mention Woody Harrelson's dad and not remind everybody that he was a suspect in the JFK assassination at one point. The very famous three tramps who were jacked up by the cops right after where one of them

was Woody Harrelson's dad. That's right. And didn't Donald Trump say Ted Cruz's dad was in on that or something? I think. Yeah, I think so. And then the internet made Ted Cruz say that he's not the zodiac killer. Remember that? Oh, yeah.

Boy, I wasn't even born. He was killing people. I was like five years old. Like they made him say it. Oh, boy. So you talked about prescriptions and, you know, that may or may not be real drugs. Yes, those can help apparently, but they're meant for short periods of time

because you can very quickly develop a dependence on them. Yeah, most of them, like Ambien we've talked about, and then Lunesta, and these these are of course the brand names of Zolpadim and etzo Pichlon I think Those are kind of known to be habit forming and for short periods, but I think I looked up that Remeltion I've not heard of that

That was in the in the stuff That was in our article, but I think I looked up that Remeltion, which is a, that was in the stuff, that was in our article, but that I think is supposed to be non-habit forming and has fewer side effects is something like ambient. Remeltion, no, I didn't see that anywhere. Wow, that's interesting. Okay, yes, okay. It's a, it's a, Benzodiazepine receptor antagonist.

Right, and I think it's a mel it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's especially if you have anxiety over not sleeping, which can help as well. But in particular with Ambien and Lunesta and those sedative hypnotics, those are the ones where they come with warnings, saying be aware, you may drive your car while you're sleeping. You may have sex while you're sleeping or do all sorts of risky behavior. Yeah, eat a stick of butters like that perennial one, but it really does happen. What if someone read that and was like,

eat a stick of butter and they're like, yeah, so what's the problem? Right, I do that while I'm wide awake. I used to catch Ruby when she was younger, just getting into the butter. Oh yeah, do you guys keep the butter around? I don't remember. Oh, of course, and she'll see you with a big like, piece of butter on a fork and like, what are you doing? Oh, that's good you guys keep your butter around? I don't remember. Spoon food. Oh, of course. And you see it with a big like piece of butter on a fork.

I'm like, what are you doing? Oh, it's so good. It is good. But you keep the salt to butter, right? Well, we have both, but you know, I Said you should probably shouldn't do that, but it's like, you know, you're also five years old and and a pad of butter It's not going to kill you right now. So just like just watch out. that's how they hook you. Yeah, exactly. Big butter. Should we talk about this world record stuff? I think so. So there have been a lot of people over the years. It used to be a thing where people would test the limits of human sleeplessness and intercontests or vie for the world record and stuff like that. And through the decades, there have been many, many records broken until they basically, the Guinness Company stopped in 1997 and said, we're going to stop monitoring this because

it's like straight up dangerous. Yeah. But by the time they stopped, someone had gotten to 18 days, 21 hours and 40 minutes, 453 hours. A guy named Robert McDonald from, I think, Modesto, California in 1986. Yeah, he was a 27 year old stunt man. Yeah. And that's 453 and change hours. And this was a rocking chair marathon, which was another one of the ladies from the UK, Maureen Weston, who was a record holder at one point. She was

also an rocking chair marathon. The guy who gets the most press, though, for having stayed up the longest actually came in like fourth or fifth by now, but his name was Randy Gardner. Back in 1963, he was a 17-year-old who was looking to win a science experiment contest. So he decided to stay up as long as he could and break the record, which I think the his record that he set was 11 days and 25 minutes, which was longer than the record at the time. that he set was 11 days and 25 minutes, which was longer than the record at the time. And at that time, I think in the 1960s, it was like a thing that DJs did.

They would just stay up for as long as they could. And if I'm not mistaken, before Randy Gardner, like the limit was around eight or nine days. So he really shattered the record. But other people had taken stimulants and really lost their poop as a result. They basically took stimulants for eight days in a row and didn't sleep. Of course, it's going to mess with you. So he learned not to do that. But instead, he was distracted.

He had two friends that stayed with him and eventually a doctor named Dr. William Dement who would take a Randy Gardner to go play like pinball to keep him awake sometimes. Yeah, and I think that one is one of the most well-known because of that doctor in the fact that he hung out and sort of quote unquote studied him. And you know, he experienced what you would think, which is hallucinations, delusions, memory problems, perception issues, motor control issues. So PCP.

Yeah, all the stuff that you would expect when you get your sleep. Yeah. But he also said that he believes that it had lasting damage. He developed Alzheimer's in his 60s. He attributes it to that. He also developed insomnia later on in life too.

Oh really? Yeah, he couldn't sleep six hours a night. Geez. All right, so maybe we should finish on the long-promised cognitive behavioral therapy routine, aka sleep boot camp. And then what was the other one called? SCT? Stimulus therapy. Stimulus control therapy. KK sleep boot camp and then what was the other one called SCT stimulus therapy stimulus therapy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because those uses in conjunction seem to be sort of the gold standard. Yeah, there was an Australian study that found out that if you put those two

together over the course of five weeks, say goodbye insomnia. Right. So there are different ways to do all kinds of cognitive behavioral therapy, but one common sleep boot camp would be something where you go into this program. I believe the night before you're supposed to sleep no more than five hours. So you go in sort of sleepy. And then when you go in, you go to a sleep lab around bedtime and then you spend the next 25 hours, basically in little 30 minute, 50 different 30 minute sessions,

trying to fall asleep. You spend the next 25 hours in hell, essentially. It sounds pretty bad. Cause the goal here is they want you to know that you can fall asleep quicker than you usually do and what that feels like. And they do that by like saying, all right, try and fall asleep and you try and fall asleep. And if they do fall asleep, after three minutes, they wake you up and say, hey, do you think were you asleep just now?

And if you say, no, then they say, well, guess what? You were. Or you say say no then they say well, guess what you were or you say yes They'll say congratulations you were and then they just keep doing that over and over So you're getting really really more and more tired so that sleep deprivation builds up until you kind of train yourself to fall asleep Yeah, and then just to really mess with you every time you do fall asleep. They change the clothes real quick So you're really disoriented when you wake up put on a wig really mess with you every time you do fall asleep they change as it close real quick. So you're really disoriented when you wake up. Put on a wig. Yeah, but so apparently in 25 hours, this works like that boot camp will help cure you. And like you said, it shows people, yes, you can fall asleep. And that the sleep deprivation that's generated doesn't hurt either. that's generated doesn't hurt either. Right, so that's that.

Then the SCT stimulus control therapy is when they say, go to your, this is not at a sleep place or whatever, it's just in your regular house, go to bed, and then after 20 minutes, if you're not asleep, get up and get out of that room, and go to another room of your house, and like read or meditate

or do something that you know will relax you, something that is proven to relax you and then go back and try again and if that doesn't work in 20 minutes, get up and leave the room again. But don't lay there in bed essentially for an hour or two, tossing and turning and stressing. Yeah, at the very least you're distracting yourself from worrying, laying in bed worrying, by going and doing something relaxing, like reading a book. I also saw, listen to a podcast, that's a good one.

And they just repeat as necessary. And so you fall asleep in apparently five weeks of stimulus control therapy, following a sleep boot camp program in 25 hours. This Australian study found that that is a really great way to get past chronic insomnia without any drugs. Yeah, and like that's the good news is I roundly found everywhere I looked that most people can cure their insomnia. That is the good news and a lot of the people who a lot of people never try.

I think I saw or I just did the math. It was something like 60-something percent of people, I don't know, it was like 80-something percent say that they should get more sleep or they don't sleep well, I think was the stat, but only like 60 percent do something about it. So or maybe it was even less. It ended up being like 20% to 30% of people like have insomnia and don't seek help. Yeah, I think a lot of them were like, well, wait a minute. To cure my insomnia, I need to stop looking at my phone right before bed,

then forget it. I'll just deal with the insomnia. Yeah, or just, you know, struggle through it. People, and I think the same goes with any mental health issue. Like so many people just don't seek help and try and figure it out for themselves. And that it's oftentimes the very first step to solving your problem. There's one other thing to check that I want to talk about before we sign off here. Let's do it. Counting cheap. Apparently I didn't get to read that. So teach me. Listen up. It not only doesn't work, it can actually keep you up longer.

I could see that. They think that it originated with medieval shepherds who devised a counting system to keep track of their flock. And the upshot of it is that it's so boring that it would put anybody to sleep even somebody who had trouble sleeping. But that's not actually the case. Instead, researchers suggest, if you're at the point where you're trying to count sheep, instead envision a really relaxing place, like a beach or a mountain cabin or whatever. Granted shopping over relaxes you. Yeah, exactly. On Black Friday. over relaxes you. Yeah, exactly on Black Friday. Yeah. And that concentrating on that and it being kind of engrossing is what will help you drift off to sleep or at the very least it will distract

you from worrying about not sleeping enough that you might fall asleep. You know that cheap counting thing. We may have talked about that. It's unsurpassed. Yeah. It's a outstanding trope. counting thing. We may have talked about that that sense from Mike. Yeah. It's a outstanding trope. Yeah. Well, since Chuck said yeah, everybody, that means it's time for a listener, mate. I'm gonna call this longtime listener. Hey guys in Jerry. I don't know what counts as a longtime listener, but I have been listening for over half my life. I think that counts. I think that counts. Nova, this is from Nova. That counts, Nova.

I can't even remember when I first started listening. I first remember listening when I was 10 or 11 maybe, and I used to listen to back-to-back episodes in spare free time while playing Minecraft. I just graduated college with a degree in mechanical engineering, and I'm off to work in an awesome job where I get to work with planes. I just want to give you guys a big thank you from the bottom of my heart for what you do. I consider you guys role models in my life, and I strive to have your genuine curiosity and open mindedness

every day. Your podcast got me through some tough times, and I always knew that I could turn on some stuff you should know and feel better Thanks for all the young minds that you have sharpened and thank you from a big nerd for giving me so many fun facts Accurious nature and a huge love of learning. I would never have even considered or finished an engineering degree Without the tools that you gave me and I hope to inspire other engineers the way you inspired me And I hope to be an engineers the way you inspired me. And I hope to be an even longer term listener.

And that's from Nova. Nova, that stuff makes us feel good. Yeah, that was a great email. Full stop. Exactly. No, no pity comments. No, no, no, it's over. Thanks for letting us know Nova.

That's really cool. And if you want to be like Nova and let us know how we impacted your life, hopefully in a positive way, how we love hearing that stuff. You can send us an email at stuffpodcast.iHeartRadio.com Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Hey, this is Annie. In Samantha and we're the host of Stuff Mom Never Told You, a podcast about intersectional feminism and all the ways it impacts all of us. And now we're coming out with an audio book with amazing soundscapes that takes an even deeper look at some of the topics important to us. We discuss the people supporting movements like civil rights, the Jane Collective, disability rights, and LGBTQ plus rights, available August 29. Pre-order your copy of Stuff Mom Never Told You, the feminist past, present, and future, now where audiobooks are sold. Or get yours at stuffyfuturetrees.com. audiobooks are sold or get yours at stuffyfuturedreadp's.com. So how does a half American, half-nicorrogly, party girl from New Orleans with absolutely no journalism experience, break the biggest story of the eighties?

That's what journalista is all about. I'm a woman, wife, theater, t-shirt, not wearing a bra, curses like a saver. I got balls bigger than any man. Dan Rather used to call me his secret weapon. Listen to Journaliste every Tuesday on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.