Stuff You Should Know - Is the Pied Piper About a Real Historic Tragedy?

Episode Date: May 31, 2018

In the German town of Hameln a tragedy that took place on a specific date in 1284 and befell specifically 130 children is commemorated every year. Aside from those two details, the event is cloaked in mystery. What about the Pied Piper fairy tale is real?  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

On the podcast, Hey Dude, the 90s called, David Lasher and Christine Taylor, stars of the cult classic show, Hey Dude, bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces. We're gonna use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and dive back into the decade of the 90s.

We lived it, and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. Listen to Hey Dude, the 90s called on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast, Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass

and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help. And a different hot, sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life. Tell everybody, ya everybody, about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never, ever have to say. Bye, bye, bye.

Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there.

This is Stuff You Should Know, fairy tale edition. Jerry is supposedly on vacation. Yeah, what's going on? But she came in here just for us. Why, Jerry? I think she feels beholden. That's nice. Which is weird, because we've had guest producers,

I don't know, maybe she feels like her job is threatened. Is today the day I die? Oh, geez, I hope not. Jerry knows it. Can we at least get these two in the can first? Yeah, well, probably, unless something really crazy happens in the next hour and two. Yeah, that'll give me time to get in touch

with the five people I have on my list to replace you. Yeah, I know. I know the five. Bono. Right? Obama. Right, Michael Stipe. Michael Stipe, Bobby Fisher.

I think there was one more, I can't remember. Bobby Fisher, the chess player. Yeah, that's a little random. Well, I'm gonna correct that episode. And Optimus Prime, that's the fifth one, right? That's right. Chuckers, have you ever heard of fairy tale before? Yeah, we did two very good episodes.

Oh, if you say so yourself, huh? No, these are good, I don't often say that, but in November of 2015, we did a back to backer with the dark origins of fairy tales and how the Grimm's fairy tales work or the Grimm brothers. We had fairy tale fever. We did, but man, we licked it. So did you go back and listen to them

and you're like, wow, these are good, or you just remember them being good? I remember them being good. Okay. And being especially kind of proud of those two. Really? That's fantastic, yeah. That's how I feel about your limb is torn off, now what?

That was a good one. That's a good title. About reattachment surgery, remember that? Yeah, I think that title's all you. That's a Josh Clark title. You got some good titles out there too. Yeah. What's the deal with Blank?

You know, who's really good at coming up with titles, Bono. Yeah. Where the streets have no name. Right. Where the streets have no drums. How's that for a teaser? Bam, dude, you just did it. So we're talking about fairy tales today,

specifically, specifically, we're talking about the fairy tale of the Pied Piper of Hamlet. And as far as fairy tales go, it seems to be a little different than other fairy tales. Okay. And the reason why it's a little different is because horrifically it's,

people think scholars, not just, you know, average jokes, right? Like real deal scholars think that something actually happened that formed the basis of this fairy tale. Right. Whereas with Hansel and Gretel, it wasn't based on some witchy lady who ate children.

No, but that one might've had some basis in fact too. How about like Rumpelstiltskin? Probably not based in fact. Probably not. Right. You remember the little guy who like you, you trick him into saying his own name back? The little guy with the big heart?

I don't think he had a big heart. He had an insatiable sexual appetite is what it was. Oh, the little guy with the big heart was Bono. Right. I mean, we're gonna get so many emails from people being like, lay off Bono. What's with the Bono references? Who's Bono?

Yeah. They must work with that Bono guy. I wish. So Chuck, the Pipe Piper, the reason why we say it might be based in fact, is because there's actual like historic evidence that kind of supports this thing. And you can find it in this town of Hamlin,

which is a real place. It's not a made up like fairy tale land like, you know, Oz. There's your first clue. Yeah. Most fairy tales are not set in an actual place, right? I don't know. Are they? No.

They're just made up. Wonderland. They're very vague place or they take place in a larger place like, oh, in Germany one day or in Bavaria one day. Not like in this town that actually existed at the time we're saying it did, which is another thing too,

because if you look at the actual fairy tale which we'll get to in a second, there's like a specific date. Yeah. That also is very unusual for a fairy tale. So the more you dig into it, the more you're like, yeah, this might have actually happened. And then once you think,

oh, this might have actually happened, then you're struck with some of the greatest dread that human being can experience. Yeah. Cause it's something bad happened is what happened. Yeah. Now let's talk about it. All right.

Well, let's get into the original fairy tale, the Grimm's brother's tale of the Pied Piper. It was not even Irish. Not at all German. Jane McGrath, good old Jane from back in the day wrote this one. Yeah. And she points out that it is a tale,

a cautionary tale about governance, as well as taking responsibility for financial agreements. She's right, but putting it that way seems a little funny. Yeah. But it is 1284 in Hamlin in Germany. And there was a rat infestation in the town at the time and the mayor.

And this is the fairy tale you're going over, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so the mayor of the town didn't know what to do. The burger meister. Oh yeah, meister burger. The stranger comes in town and wore, and I didn't know what Pied even meant. I didn't either.

What is it? Multi-colored. Yeah. He wore multi-colored clothes, Pied, multi-colored clothes. That's all he was. He was a piper who wore colorful clothing. Had nothing to do with eating pies or I thought walking on his feet, you know.

You thought that's what that meant? Yeah. Why? I think like a pedestrian comes from Pied or Pied. Well, but sure. I think it's like maybe Italian or something. That certainly makes more sense than me having no clue. Yeah, but I was way off, so it doesn't matter.

I was wrong. He walked. He did walk. So you're kind of right. That was the other reason I thought that too. So his outfit looked a little weird, apparently. Multi-colored, people didn't dress like that, I reckon. I saw though that it was also like a splendid outfit

that he attracted a lot of attention and people were like, I wish I could, I wish I had the Cajones to dress like you, Pied, Piper. Dance around with a band pluit. Right. And he had, they call it a musical pipe or some kind of flute. Not a smoking pipe, Pied's.

No. And he hears about this rat problem. He comes into town, he drags his fingernails along the chalkboard and gets everyone attention in the town meeting. Says, I'll kill that shark. Oh, you gotta do it, by the way. No, no, no, I'll kill the rats.

Yeah, but in the voice. I can't do quint. Whatever, you can do anything. You're like the rich little of this company. Jerry's laughing at us for no reason. She's so sick of this. Man, she's really tickled the day. Jerry, are you stoned?

No. She's been smoking her own magical pipe. So they agree on a price to get rid of the rats. Piper takes out his little hand flute. Yeah, yeah, I don't know if that's what it's called. But the price is important. Can I go into the price for a second? Sure.

So he initially said that he would get rid of the rats for 1,000 florins, which is either coins or money from Italy or France or the Netherlands. But money, 1,000, a lot at the time. 1,000 pieces of money. And this town of Hamlin was so overrun by rats, apparently all their cats had died. Whoa.

Yes. They beat the cats? I didn't see explain what happened to the cats, just that the cats died, and that's why the town was overrun. Okay. Which is a weird little thing, don't you think? Well, yeah, because my first thing was like,

why a Pied Piper, just get some cats. The cats had all died. All right. Good thinking, Chuck. But they say 1,000 florins, we'll give you 50,000 florins if you get rid of these rats, our problem is so bad. And he says done. But was that a facetious offer?

I think it was a desperate boast. Okay. But the Pied Piper was like, all right, I'll agree to your terms. I just wanted 1,000, but 50,000 it is. And they went, I think we overspent. I regret saying that. But you should hear the guy.

So he pulls out the instrument. He starts playing as the story goes, all the rats congregate around him, and he leaps about and dances through town into the Wester river, which the rats drowned, which is complete fabrication because rats are very good swimmers. They really are, I thought about that too.

I even looked it up. They're good swimmers. Not just rats you've seen, it's rats in general. Yeah, I mean, the first thing, honestly, when I heard that, the first thing that made me think that was like, wait a minute, first blood. And he's in that abandoned mineshaft.

Those rats are swimming all over the place. So I looked it up, I was like, is that true? And apparently rats are really good swimmers. Yeah. Some better than others. I've seen that too. So this fairy tale stinks of BS already, okay? But the story goes that the rats followed this guy

in a trance to the river whereupon they drowned. Maybe they were in the trance. And that was why they couldn't swim because they were just so lulled by his hand fluid. Yeah, his smooth jazz. Should we take a break there and finish the story after? Oh, that's quite a cliffhanger. All right, let's do that.

On the podcast, HeyDude, the 90s, called David Lasher and Christine Taylor stars of the cult classic show, Hey Dude, bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces. We're going to use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and dive back into the decade of the 90s.

We lived it, and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. It's a podcast packed with interviews, co-stars, friends, and non-stop references to the best decade ever. Do you remember going to Blockbuster? Do you remember Nintendo 64? Do you remember getting Frosted Tips?

Was that a cereal? No, it was hair. Do you remember AOL Instant Messenger and the dial-up sound like poltergeist? So leave a code on your best friend's beeper, because you'll want to be there when the nostalgia starts flowing. Each episode will rival the feeling

of taking out the cartridge from your Game Boy, blowing on it and popping it back in, as we take you back to the 90s. Listen to, hey dude, the 90s called on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast, Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. The hardest thing can be knowing who to turn to when

questions arise or times get tough, or you're at the end of the road. Ah, OK. I see what you're doing. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place, because I'm here to help.

This, I promise you. Oh, god. Seriously, I swear. And you won't have to send an SOS, because I'll be there for you. Oh, man. And so will my husband, Michael. Um, hey, that's me.

Yep, we know that, Michael. And a different hot, sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life, step by step. Oh, not another one. Kids, relationships, life in general, can get messy. You may be thinking, this is the story of my life. Just stop now. If so, tell everybody, yeah, everybody,

about my new podcast, and make sure to listen, so we'll never, ever have to say bye, bye, bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. All right, Chuck, we're back. Lay it on them, man. That was high class. Well, they drown all the rats.

The Pied Piper is successful. Everyone parties German style, which is to say, they probably got hammered on 88-ounce beers. You ever been to Germany? Sure. You ever had the beers there, the big guy? I mean, they got big old beers there, for sure. And they have lids on their mugs, too,

because there's so much of it, you can just set it down and save it for later. But I don't think they save it for later. The beer garden I went to did not have the lids. Maybe I've just seen in those on TV. But what they did have was a 4 and 1 1⁄2 foot tall woman with Popeye-sized forearms carrying six of those giant ones in each hand at a time.

In each hand, sure. Like a pro, not like a pro. They were pros. Well, she was probably sold to the beer garden at a young age and was raised to serve like that. Please tell me that's not the case. All right, so where are we? Townspeople are partying.

They're getting hammered. They're singing their pro-sting, singing their German beer hall songs, as they are one to do. And then- Pink Cadillac. Dude says, what's up with all those Florence? Yeah, he's like, everybody, I'm really glad you enjoyed my work. But now it's time for me to go paint me.

And did they just stiff them? Or did they say, well, let's go back to the 1,000? They said, we're not giving you 50,000 Florence. We thought you were going to get rid of these rats through hard work. You just played some flute. Like, that's cool that you can do that with the flute, but that's not really work.

So no, we're not going to pay you 50,000 Florence. He's like, well, in 1,000 Florence, at least, that's what I originally agreed to. And they're like, how about this, we're going to give you 50. And if you're not happy with that, then you're getting nothing. And he was still so mad that they're like, fine, nothing. Get out of town. And he says, you will regret this.

You know what, that's higher in the critter remover, because you have a raccoon in your attic. And you agree to a price. He comes over and shoots the raccoon and says, game over. And you're like, wait a minute, I expected a little more. You were going to hypnotize him or coax him down from the roof with your smooth jazz. Right.

Not just shoot it. Anybody could shoot it. I thought you were going to step on it or something. Yeah, like, I would have shot it. I was looking for a peaceful solution. Right. In a place that I have a bullet hole in my house now. Have you ever had to call one of those people?

A raccoon remover? Well, just those dudes. They're just like, I'll do snakes and raccoons. Oh, sure, no. Or whatever. I haven't either. But a lot of my friends do that. I'm over one.

I think I mentioned with cockroaches right now. And it's just, it's getting bad. Still? Yeah, dude, because I don't know what to do. Hire an exterminator. Yeah, but we're not into the poison stuff. But I think it's like, we got to do it. I think there's green exterminators that

are not quite as deadly. Jerry's nodding. But will they kill all the cockroaches? They'll kill probably. You'll probably have less with their magic flute. I need to do something. It's gotten out of hand. Yeah, you've got to do something.

Like, I almost am going to tell you what happens. But I feel like people judge me on how disgusting it is. We can always edit it out later. All right, I'll go in. And this is not like food is out. I will clean the kitchen. Sure. I will go in there to get a glass of water at midnight.

And I'll turn the light on. And a dozen will scatter. Wow. Jerry's going, nope. Like, I will hear them going, sure, yeah, that's one of the creepiest things. And they, as soon as they see that light, they're gone. And it sounds like we live in filth,

but it doesn't matter. We're infested. They're just like, I don't know what to do. Yeah, well, I think you may want to call an exterminator. But find one. You live in Decatur. I'm sure you'd be hard pressed to find an exterminator that did use deadly poison.

Yeah, you throw a rock in Decatur. And you'll hit a lavender dust. Yeah, right. So I, yes, I think it might be time. All right. Sorry about getting sidetracked so much. They all from what, 50? 50, not even, not 50,000 or 1,050. And so what does he say? He says,

he did the little everybody you can't see me, but you know, where you flick the underside of your chin. I feel like that's Italian. Well, I mean, this is Germany. It's lower Saxony. It wasn't too far from Germany. No, but is that Italian? I was just wondering. Yeah. It feels like a very like Italian thing to do. Yeah. Okay.

Right. Exactly. You got to say it like that. All right. So he gives him that number and says, I'm going to come back. Does he even warn them and say, I'm going to come back and get your kids or I'm just going to. It depends on the story. It's all good. You'll see me again. It depends on the story. Some say yet he vowed vengeance. Some say he came back a month later. Some say he came back a year later. Some say he just immediately started playing his flute. Some say, and I think the brother's grim version

is that he waited until the town went to sleep and then came through the town and started playing again. All right. But this time he's wearing Hunter's clothing. Lo ominous. I did not see that anywhere. Oh, really? Is that BS? I don't think it's BS. I think this story has just been added to so many times over the, but yeah, I shouldn't have even said anything.

All right. So he comes back regardless of what he's wearing. Let's say he's buck naked, which makes it even more fun. Well, you just added to the legend just there. He starts playing this flute again, but this time the children are entranced. He leads, what, like 130 kids supposedly? Yeah. Pay attention to that number. It seems a little specific, doesn't it? It does. Okay. He leads 130 children out of town up a mountain to a cave.

They supposedly enter and are never heard from again. Right. And the mountain has a landslide and covers up the cave mouth. And supposedly it was a magical door that opened in the mountain that revealed the cave. They go in, doors closed, landslide gone. Never heard from again, like you said. And the townspeople are like, there goes our labor pool. Yeah. There goes my baby. There goes our labor pool. Who's going to service at the beer gardens?

And supposedly there, in one version at least, there was the mayor's grown daughter was among that group. And this feels like a specific jab at the mayor. Right. Like even though your daughter's grown, I'm going to entrench her with my flute as well. Right. Yeah. Which I don't think that was in the original Grimm Brothers one either, but. But two children survive, correct? Are they come back?

I think in the Grimm Brothers version, it's just one. Sometimes it's up to three, but there's, in a lot of retellings, there's a kid who either is deaf and so can't hear the magic flute song. So it's not entranced. Has some sort of physical disability. And so he or she can't keep up with the rest of the kids and survives from that. Or I think is blind and can't see their way. Either way, some kid who had some unique characteristic that kept them from being

entranced or whatever is like the eyewitness that comes back and tells the parents what happened. Or in another version is just a skeptic, a child skeptic. This can't be happening. Lewis, the child skeptic. That's funny. So all right, so let's get into this. It may not to be fiction as it turns out because a lot of historians and scholars have looked into this.

We talked about the specificity being a little weird. One thing we do know is that at one point there was a stained glass window in the town church that depicted, and this was what around 1300s is after it would have happened. But I mean 16 years in memory, living memory is when they first directed that window. Which kind of makes sense as a memorial. And on that window, it said on the day of John and Paul, 130 children in Hamlin went to Calvary and were brought through all kinds of danger to the Copenhagen Mountain and lost. Yeah, so the Calvary thing that I thought was another word for heaven, isn't it?

I'm going to Calvary. Isn't that like the hill where Christ was crucified? I used to know the answer to this. If I know this, surely you know. I used to know this. I know it looms large and Christianity, but I can't remember exactly. I think it's like shorthand for I'm going to meet my maker. I saw elsewhere that they referred to the mountain as Calvary.

They also referred to the area that the children went to Calvary as the execution place. I never saw any explanation of that. And then the cop and mountain, I don't understand why that would be also named Calvary. And they would mention it the same place twice with two different names. So it's a bit of a mystery. But the point is about 15, 16 years after this event supposedly happened or the fairy tale takes place, the town of Hamlin, Germany in lower Saxony or West Folly, I think is what it's called now, put up a stained glass window commemorating this.

And the window did not survive. But apparently there are accounts of that window. Yeah. Like in more than one place. Yeah. And it was, I mean, you can understand that it would be because it was in the town church for hundreds of years before it was destroyed. No one knows how it was destroyed. But there is documentation that this window existed. Obviously no living historian saw it with their own eyes.

But there's enough documentary evidence that it seems to be, yes, there was a window that was erected in 1300. That is a very weird thing to do. Yeah. To just make up. Right. Yeah. Very weird. And especially in the church. Yeah.

You know why? No. You go to hell for that. So that was the first documentary evidence, right? The next one I saw comes 100 years later in 1384. And it's in the Hamlin town chronicle for that year. And all it says is it is 100 years since our children left. Yeah.

Kind of weird. And what is that? Just a blurb? I guess so. You'd think 100 year commemoration, they might add a little more than that. Yeah. And what is this? The Lundberg manuscript.

This was about 100 years after the window. And this was a monk who wrote it, Heinrich of Herford. And he says, he writes an account and says, a man about 30 years old came to town playing a flute and led the children out. Yeah. Pretty simple. Yeah. But what's noteworthy about that one?

There's a couple of things. So the Piper doesn't show up in the window. Right. But he does show up in the Lundberg manuscript. He mentions the Piper. But no rats in any of these, right? Not yet. But the other thing about the Lundberg manuscript

is that Lundberg is a nearby town. So there are other towns that are talking about this event that happened. I'm sure we're going around. In their own chronicles. Right. It was real. One of the reasons why...

But it supports the idea that it's real, because if it's just this one town that's diluted, even if other towns are talking about it, they'll probably be, by the way, they're all nuts. But other towns' chronicles seem to be verifying that this happened or recounting the story in like a credulous way. So something happened in 1284

and the evidence is starting to mount. The other thing about the fact that this is another town is that this town Lundberg and other towns cited that Hamlin came to be known to commemorate things counting backward or forward from the date of 1284. So, for example, they put up a gate in 1556 in the town. Right. This is what they inscribed on the gate, Chuck.

Like, in this year of 1556, 272 years after the magician led 130 children out of the town, this portal was erected. That's like saying, like, we're putting up this sewer. 262 years after our children were led out of town by a magician. Enjoy the sewer. Like, that's a weird thing to inscribe in something and apparently the town became known for that kind of thing. Like, what, just these random inscriptions about this weird,

like, mysterious event? Yeah, just like dating everything from 1284 on based on their children leaving. And again, you'll notice it mentions 130 children. Things changed over the retelling, but the one thing that's remained the same is the 130 children leaving. Even before the piper shows up in the story,

130 children are cited each and every time. Yeah, and what we don't know is that, like, some symbolic things that all metaphor. Should we take a break and get to the theories? Yeah, sure. All right, let's do that. We're gonna use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and dive back

into the decade of the 90s. We lived it and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. It's a podcast packed with interviews, co-stars, friends, and non-stop references to the best decade ever. Do you remember going to Blockbuster? Do you remember Nintendo 64?

Do you remember getting Frosted Tips? Was that a cereal? No, it was hair. Do you remember AOL Instant Messenger and the dial-up sound like poltergeist? So leave a code on your best friend's viper because you'll want to be there when the nostalgia starts flowing. Each episode will rival the feeling

of taking out the cartridge from your Game Boy, blowing on it and popping it back in as we take you back to the 90s. Listen to Hey Dude, the 90s, called on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, God. Seriously, I swear. And you won't have to send an SOS

because I'll be there for you. Oh, man. And so will my husband, Michael. Um, hey, that's me. Yep, we know that, Michael. And a different hot, sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life step by step. Not another one.

Uh-huh. Kids, relationships, life in general can get messy. You may be thinking, this is the story of my life. Just stop now. If so, tell everybody, yeah, everybody, about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never, ever have to say bye, bye, bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio

app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. All right. The theories are varied. One of the common ones that makes a lot of sense is that there was some disease that killed all these kids, and then this story is some sort of metaphor for what happened to their children. And the fact that rats come into play at some point

have led people to speculate that it might be the bubonic plague. Yeah, there's a guy named Count Froben Christoph von Zimmer. Can you say it like that, Froben? No, I don't know. But I know that that guy will steal your soul in the middle of the night if you're not careful. Right. Right, yeah, so Count Froben Christoph von Zimmer,

you can only say all of his names. You can't just say... Beware. He wrote a chronicle in 1565 from another nearby town, and he was the one who seems to have introduced the rats. Okay. And so at that point, the piper goes from just a weirdo magician to a rattenfonger.

Yeah, rat catcher. Yeah. Which was a job. It was, and I mean like this town would have had rats, any town would have had rats. So it would have been like it's understandable, like that the rats would come into it, and it's not like that's just, you know,

a totally outlandish addition to the story, but the fact that it doesn't show up until 1565. Yeah. And this has been documented for hundreds of years up to that point. Seems a little fishy, and it certainly seems weird that it would have been the plague because the plague hadn't come around yet, right? Right, and it also seems fishy that it doesn't mention anything about adults,

and any sort of rat carrying or diseased rat would seem like it wouldn't just affect kids. No, no. It doesn't make any sense. No, it doesn't. But the idea that 130 kids were taken from the town in one form or fashion, you could say, well it's like some sort of disease.

One of the other diseases that got put up was Parkinson's, I believe? Or no, Huntington's, I'm sorry. Yeah. Which is a stupid theory. Yeah. It's a terrible theory. Huntington's disease is an inherited disease.

Yeah, that didn't make any sense. So that would mean that every kid in the town had inherited Huntington's from their parents who apparently weren't showing any symptoms. Who put that forth? I don't know. I couldn't find it, but it's a terrible one. And then the idea that, so it's not infectious, it's rare,

and everybody's symptoms coming on at the same time and dying. The reason why they said that though is because supposedly the shakes from at the palsy would account for the dancing of the children. Seems like a pretty dumb thing to zero in on. That's a stretch. Huntington's disease, we're crossing off the list. All right, one of my favorites is that the children

left on their own as part of one of the crusades. And apparently, the one thing that doesn't quite align is the timeline, because a few decades previous, there were in fact young people, children, probably teenagers, I doubt they were like eight-year-olds, participating in the crusades. One of them would have a vision from God and say, you know, we should totally cover the crusades.

I don't think we have. Have we done that? No, not yet. There's a really good article on the site, too. That'd be a pretty dense single. Yeah, we might have to do two. All right, two parter on the crusades. Coming at you.

So you would, you know, one of those kids would have a vision from God, and then all the kids would follow and say, all right, we're going to take our broadswords that we can barely lift and go fight the good fight. Right. So that's one theory. And that's actually a pretty, that's a little more rooted in reality.

Like, yes, there were children's crusade before documented. It's possible it happened a decade or two later. Like, if it was in the area and well-known, some other kid could have been like, oh, okay, let me try my hand at it. Right. Changes his name to Jim Jones and says, follow me to Jerusalem, right?

That's right. So that one could have happened. It's possible. The other one, and this is supposedly the most widely held theory, Chuck, was that this is all part of the O-S-E-D-Lung, O-S-T-S-I-E-D-L-U-N-G, which is basically an exodus or an eastward expansion from Germany to Transylvania, Romania area,

which was being newly settled by western Europeans after conquering like the whole Dracula era. So the idea is an adult came and said, hey kids, why don't you come with me and we'll go like, populate Eastern Europe? Pretty much, right. Right. So, and there is evidence that this,

this did, like this definitely happened, right? There was a migration eastward. Right. And the big thing about this one is that there were misinterpreting the word kids or children, that it could have been the town's children, but it's like their, their children, they weren't kids. They were, you know, young adults who were,

who would have represented like, you know, a lot of the workforce. So there would have been a big deal. Right. Had they left. So that's a, that's I think the most widely held one right now. Well, one of the traditions you're hanging on to is,

and I kind of teased it with that dumb Bono jerk. Uh, jerk. Poor Bono. He's like, what did I do? That was a great Bono. That Bono joke earlier is today still, the street where this supposedly all happened is called the bungalowsenstraße,

street with no drums, street without drums. And to this day, they won't allow people to play music or dance on that street. Right. The, the rest of the town and including that street, but really the rest of the town is, the whole town is dedicated to this legend. Yeah.

I thought you were going to say dedicated to music and dancing, except for the street. They do. There is a musical called rats that's put on in the town. Seriously. And there's a, there's like a pie piper statue and recreations every Sunday in the summer. Really?

Oh yeah. It's huge tourist town for this. There's like a, I think a rats blood cocktails that they serve. I saw. It's like a mental floss article. I mentioned that. But the town is dedicated to this,

but there's, there's the fact that they're still talking about it is not just legend. It's, it's, it's like they're, they're still telling that story to an extent. You know what I mean? Well, yeah. They're keeping it alive, not just for tourist dollars. Right.

Because it looms large because this is their ancestry. Right. Well, they, they definitely, there are some more theories that haven't gained as much traction. Like there was a pedophile that came. These children were just maybe just simply sent away because they were very poor because that happened. That's my theory.

That, that was just sort of the regular thing that would happen is we're all so poor you go away and live a better life somewhere. Yeah. And that's where Hansel and Gretel is kind of rooted in reality. The idea of child abandonment. Remember, we talked about that, I believe in the,

in one of the fairy tale episodes from before that like if you fell on hard times, just taking your kid out to the woods and being like, best of luck. Yeah. It was a viable thing to do during the Middle Ages. Yeah. And it's possible that this town basically said, it'd be like a combination of the guy coming from Romania

and saying, follow me and the parents being like, maybe you should go with him. Right. And then it would explain why the whole thing is written in like such vague, flowery language. To me, that indicates that they're, they're working out guilt. There's guilt by this town.

Beg, they're not direct. Other towns are talking about this legend in much more explicit terms, but in the town of Hamlin, it's all very like, like flowery and, and poetic and vague. And it makes me think they're, they're covering something up that they, they have to get off their chest, but they're still, they, they can't bring themselves to actually say what it was.

Well, that sort of jibes then with this dude. He's a children's poet named Michael Rosen. You sent that one article. Yeah. He actually went to Hamlin and hooked up with a guy named Michael Boyer from the tourism office there. And Boyer says that he thinks the rats were added. And this, this makes sense with your theory was that

just sort of an attempt to wash away what he said were bad memories, like a cover up to draw attention away from this awful thing. They were like, Hey, let's tell this rat story. Right. But if you'll notice also in that story with the rats, they're, there is guilt by the town. The town is guilty of something and they lose

their children as a result. Right. So if the rats were actually part of the original story, even if it wasn't documented, even if there weren't real rats, it still is putting some veneer of guilt onto the town. It wasn't something that just happened to them. This thing befell them because they did something wrong.

Wow. I feel like there could be a deeper mystery though. Yeah. I think there is like for real. I think there's something really happened in Hamlin in 1284 and they lost 130 kids somehow. And the town was psychically damaged by it. Are you going to title this one Pied Piper colon cold case?

That's a good one actually. It's not bad. Okay. You got anything else? No. Now I want to know more. I know. I got sucked into this.

I can't remember which of the articles I sent that got me, but I don't remember how I came across it. But it was, it was like, oh, I'd never thought of this. And it's not like you can do this with every fairytale. Right. There's, you know, there's probably no Rapond's older and probably no Rumpelstiltskin and Hansel and Gretel's are so vague, should probably happen to multiple children.

But this one, this happened in Hamlin. And in 1284, something happened. We may never know what it was, but it's pretty interesting. My mind goes really dark and thinks like, what if there was just a mass murder of these parents? One more thing. One more thing. I'm glad you brought that up.

So the execution place that the Coppin Mountain or Calvary Mountain or whatever it was, supposedly that was where they buried people too. Oh, that's right. So they were saying that could be code for a mass grave where they would have buried people, which would suggest a mass death that happened in a short period of time.

Man, can you imagine if there was a discovery made of children's bones and a mountain somewhere north of Hamlin? That'd be neat. I'd say north because it's mountains. I just think that means they're north. So one more. You keep bringing up this awesome stuff, dude. You ready?

I'm ready. They recently discovered, I think they discovered it a while back, but they recently publicized it. The discovery of a, and believe it was, it was definitely in Peru. It wasn't Incan. It was one of the Incan's rivals, the Inca rivals.

But it was a mass sacrifice of hundreds of kids that all happened on one day, one after the other. It was like they found this and you're reading it and you're like, this probably has never happened in the history of the world. Anything like this, nothing like this. I mean, yes, there were probably childs, or there were definitely child sacrifices,

but they would do it like once in a while or something. But imagine a town gone that berserk that they just let their kids, like hundreds of kids, just killed in a day in one area. It was, it's really rough, man. But reading about it, it's, I mean, it's just, you can't help but pull yourself back into that day and just see it and want to be like, stop,

what are you doing? You've lost your mind, you know? And if it happened once, it could happen again. I guess so. You know, maybe the parents were all, maybe they all drank bad beer one day and it made them temporarily insane. That'd be really bad.

It sounds like a Blumhouse movie to come. What is that? It's just that production company that makes a lot of the horror movies now. What, like what? I think they did get out among many others. Good movie. Yeah.

Okay, you got anything else now? I got nothing else. Jerry? No. Okay. Well, if you want to know more about the Pied Piper and all that stuff, you can type that word in the search bar at HowStuffWorks.com and since I said that, it's time for Listener Mail.

I'm going to call this a double Quinceanera reply because we heard from a couple of people with some good insight. First, Alexandra, a longtime listener from San Juan, Puerto Rico, loved the episode on Quinceaneras. As usual, you did a great job approaching a cultural tradition

that is not your own while providing a balanced information, well-rounded, contextualization of the celebration and its influences. She's like in parentheses, it was the opposite of the vaping episode. Oh man, we've gotten beat up about that. For my own Quinceanera,

my mother gave me the option of the traditional coming of age party or a trip. What do you think she chose? I'm guessing a trip. Yeah, I would too. I chose to travel and spend a month in Germany this summer I turned 15 looking back. It's amazing that she trusted me enough

at such a young age to travel on my own, although I did stay with family. She's like, it's the greatest regret of my young life. I wish I would have partied. Just wanted to clarify a few things you brought up. L-A-T-I-N-X is pronounced, she says Latin X. It refers to those from Latin America or Latin American descent.

Hispanic refers to Spanish-speaking persons. Okay. Oh, and your pronunciation of Quinceanera was great. As the E-R-A is a soft R sound. No need to read this on the podcast. It's a yes. Sorry, Alexandra. And then this other follow-up,

this guy says, this is Tyvon Plinsky. I recognize that name. I think he's on Twitter or something. Oh, really? Yeah, great name. He's localish. He said, disclaimer, I'm a white person from Georgia, so I have no authority here at all,

but we'll be referring to the opinions of actual Latino, Latina, Latinx people I know, or have read the writings of. I personally only heard that word pronounced with confidence in the following two ways, Latinx and Latinx. Okay. However, some people say Latin X or Latinx. Latinx sounds right because it's Latino, Latina, Latinx. Yeah.

That makes sense. Or Latinx rhymes with Sphinx. I don't think that's right. Or something else entirely as evidenced by this Twitter poll. And he shared the Twitter poll, which was from a media brand for Latino millennials. Interestingly, there appears to be backlash against the term by some who view it as an attempt,

intentional or not to anglicize Spanish. They say this is part of a larger movement to paint Hispanic, Latino, Latina, Latinx people as sexist and ignorant. A Mexican-American person who introduced me to the term was still sorting out their feelings about the whole situation. Wow, we stepped into a hornet's nest with that. Tyvon Plinsky. If you want to get in touch with us like Ty and Alexandra did,

you can tweet to us. I'm at Josh M. Clark and at SYSK Podcast and Chuck's at Movie Crush. You can join Chuck on Facebook at facebook.com slash Charles W. Chuck Bryant and slash Stuff You Should Know. You can send us all an email at stuffpodcast.howstuffworks.com and as always, join us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com. For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit howstuffworks.com. We're going to use Hey Dude as our jumping off point,

but we are going to unpack and dive back into the decade of the 90s. We lived it and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. Guide you through life, tell everybody, yeah, everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never, ever have to say bye-bye-bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts.