Stuff You Should Know - Selects: Cockney Rhyming Slang: Beautiful Gibberish

Episode Date: September 23, 2023

What is Cockney Rhyming Slang? It's complicated and its origins are unclear. Learn everything we know about it today in this classic episode.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hey everybody, it's your old pal Josh, and for this week's Select, I've chosen our episode from November of 2019 on Cockney Rhyming slang. This is one of those silly episodes that's also packed with a lot of interesting information. And I remember Chuck and I having fun making it, so I hope you'll enjoy listening to it too. Enjoy. [♪ music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing Charles, if you took Bryant right there, there's Jerry Roland right there, so that makes this stuff you should know.

Right? Eat, come day! That's it for me, I can't top that. I was trying to think a way to say welcome to the podcast in Cockney Rhyming's line. Can you make an attempt? My brain is so broken right now, I can't even try. Okay, good, well welcome.

It's a good, good time to record a show. Right, exactly. You're gonna do some Cockney in here, right? We wanna offend as many Londoners as we can. I don't know. Just channel a little Dick Van Dyke. Oh. You know?

Yeah, the American. Doing a bad Cockney accent. Well, I did recently rewatch the Limey. Yes, for Casey's benefit. Yeah, the great, great movie from Steven Soderbergh. Never seen it. It's awesome. Is it really?

Yeah. I mean, I know it's like a classic and everybody loves it, but I mean, it's really that good, huh? Yeah. Because a lot of people like, I don't know, the hangover. I like the hangover. Well, how would you, would you like the limey and the hangover same level? Yeah, they're the same movie almost all right. It's weird. Well, then I've seen the hangover So I don't need to see the limey. No the limey's great and a tarant stamp

is Awesome and it then uses some Cockney rhyming slang and one scene. My big exposure to Cockney Rhyming slang is lock stock in two smoking barrels for snatch. Which I think are both directed by Guy Richie, right? Wasn't lock stock like his first attempt in snatch was the one that got him married to Madonna. You a fan of his? Yeah, I mean as much as I like his movies,

I don't like him personally necessarily because he like hunts bore like a jackass and does it like yeah, no, I'm in drunk with his friends in the most like disrespectful way of murdering a pig. I admit his movies, but yeah, I do like his movie. Sounds like he's a creep too. I'm not gonna go on record saying that, but yeah. Yeah, those movies are okay. And then I guess what's his name? Don Cheetle, a little bit in Ocean's 11. Sure. He did a little bit of that.

Right, and I mean, it's code to Americans. It's, oh, there's a British criminal. Right. That's all that means these days. Yeah, I think so. In movies, it's definitely all like all of those are criminal, criminal people in the movies. But they're like, you know, kind of like cool criminals

that like wear leather coats and stuff like that. Not dumb criminals that wear like football jerseys or anything like that. They're like, you know, smooth criminals. That's I think what I was looking for. Yeah. But this idea of associating it with Cockney is not necessarily associating it with criminals.

It's more associated with lower class working class, less educated, definitely not the aristocracy over in Britain. Yeah, or the upper class. Sure. And that by speaking with a Cockney accent or more to the point using Cockney rhyming slang, you could really differentiate yourself as a point of pride.

Like you were speaking like your group, you're in group, which was at the time Cockney. But the big surprise to all this is it's really possible and even probable that it wasn't the Cockney that came up with this rhyming slang, that it was somebody else altogether. Maybe. Who knows?

Should we say what it is? No. Not for the rest of the podcast. Cockney rhyming slang. It wasn't even very clearly defined in this piece. Okay. Did you think it was? It's in there.

Okay. You gotta just kind of separate the wheat from the chaff. So it is a two word phrase. It is a slang phrase consisting of two words. So far so good. Where the last word of that phrase rhymes with the original word. And it can be, and I think the best way to do this is just to throw out a few. No, no.

Keep describing. Well, the two word phrase, it can be a lot of things. It can be a person's name. It can be just something random. It can be a place. It could be a place. It could be a lot of things. It can be anything. Yeah, sure, I guess it can be.

But shall we illustrate it through? Well, there's a second part to it, too. Okay. The second part, and this is very important, the two word phrase that you're using to, that were the second word rhymes with the word you're actually saying. Yeah, the original word.

The original word, thank you. Usually has nothing to do with it. There's no metaphor, there's no connection, there's no, nothing, there's no context to it. It's supposed to just be random, or in most cases it is just random words. Right. One of which rhymes with the word you're replacing. And to further complicate things.

Sure. And a lot of cases, and no one knows why, sometimes this happens, and sometimes it doesn't. A lot of times that one of the words of the two word phrase is dropped. Yeah. And then you're just left with the one word. Which doesn't even rhyme with the original word anymore. Right. That's, I mean, that's probably the best description of Cockney Rhyming slang anyone's ever given. So I think we should illustrate it with a couple of examples. I pulled some from, from something called the internet. Here's one.

The tip and tet. That's how long it took me to come up with that. Tip and tet for internet. But in 10 years it'll just be called the tip. I'm gonna log on to the tip. Governor. So let's say your word was, and this was in Ocean's 11 specifically,

trouble is the word that you're trying to say. Cockney rhyming slang for trouble is Barney rubble. Awesome. And so you would say you make it a bit of the baloney rubble again. Right. When somebody, that was kind of, um, who was that? Making a bit of baloney rubble, not the, see, I already did it wrong. No, but I think you don't like a real person. To an American for sure. Oh, yeah, um, I already did it wrong. No, but I think you get it. That's like a real person. To an American for sure. Oh, yeah, I can't, I can't, I'll shout it out later.

Oh man. I finally did a good one. We just, I just don't know who it was. No, but it wasn't a Cockney person, is it? Okay. Another example for Queen, they would use the term bake bean, look who's on TV, use the term bake bean. Look who's on TV, it's the bake bean. And that's the queen.

I like that one. Or in the case of one that's been dropped, what is Ed use here, bees and honey? That one is not dropped for money. Oh, okay, but which one was? Apples and pairs for stairs. Right. So you would say, I'm gonna go up the apple and stairs.

Apples and pairs. Oh man. Let me retake this everybody. You would say. I'm going to go up the apples and pairs to go get my wallet to pay for this pizza. Something of that effect. Okay.

But then over time, people dropped the pairs. And so now the word for stairs in Cockney Rhyming slang is just apples, which if you're just standing there on the outside like a normal American bloke, which by the way means person. You have no idea why this person just called stairs apples. You got what they were saying because the context is there. You're going up the apples to get your wallet to pay for the pizza. But why would you just say that? Did you hit your head? Is there something wrong with you? What's the

problem? Why would you just call that apples? That's why it's so confounding. But the great thing about Cockney Rhyming slang, and in particular, the great thing about researching Cockney Rhyming's Lying is you learn how you get from apples to stairs, and then it makes sense. Sometimes. Yeah, that's true, it's not always. Yeah, sometimes there's, it's not documented, which Ed points out as one of the problems. Sometimes you can draw the line, the through line,

but because it's not documented, and sometimes these things take years and years to morph into its final version. Right. Unless you're, you know, on the, what would you call streets? On the dole. No, on the streets. Then you wouldn't know.

But I don't know what streets is. You can't just make stuff up. Like, there's real words. On the drums and beats. So you're on the drums. Right. But they probably have a word for streets. Like that's the whole point.

You can't just make anything up. But you could if it hasn't been taken yet. Sure, but also that's the other thing about Cockney rhyming slang is it evolves. Right. So old celebrities that no one even knows about it and more follow way to new celebrities whose name also rhyme with, you know, whatever word you're saying. Right, I thought you meant old celebrities who maybe used to talk this way like Michael Cain.

No, he's never saying rhyming slang in his life. No, of course. You got to see the movie Alfie. Maybe that's who it was. It might have been Michael Cain. No, I don't take that. Michael Cain. I think it was as a matter of fact, yep, thank you. I'm glad you did it. No, Lowe says a good joke is to say Michael Cain in the correct accent, say the words, my cocaine.

And it sounds like Michael Cain saying it. And it sounds like the correct accent for Michael Cain. Right, say it. My cocaine. No. Well, you just blew that one out of the water. You're gonna set me up in the future. It's now you have it recorded me saying my cocaine. Well, there's, I've got it two ways now. Man, my cocaine. Here's the thing. My cocaine. That's my cocaine. That's pretty good.

Michael Caine. It is good. You're right, Noel. You just got to say it the right way. And not like a robot Josh. So here's one of the things that's sort of confounding. If you want to look up a like a glossary and say, well, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to learn Cockney rhyming slang. So for my trip to England, I'm really, you know, I'm really in with everybody. Percival, bad idea. Yeah. Second of all, it can be very localized and the accents are all different. Yeah, so even people in London, who both, who all use, well, people in London don't really do, but the people who use Cockney Rhyming slang in London, who both use, well, people in London don't really do, but people who use Cockney Rhyming slang in London might not even agree on what word is, means what?

I'm just picturing all the people walking around England laughing their arses off. Oh, I can't wait to get to that one. It's a great one. As we stumble through this. Yeah, Ed had a really good example of why there's no codification of the Cockney Rhyming slang. He said that when people are creating a language, especially informal ones like slang, they don't write it all down, quote, dear diary, referred to my house as a cat and mouse today because it rhymed. We all had a good laugh.

I might try just calling it cat tomorrow and see how it goes. It sounds funny, but that's how it works. Can you imagine stumbling across the diaries and so that? And here's the other thing too, is there are cases where there is a little bit of a reflection of the original word and the example that it gives here is twist. Yeah, like to call a woman a twist,

which I don't know if that's a derogatory or not or just some weird slang that no one uses anymore. I don't think so, although I don't know. So, these are also the people who use the C word, like it's nothing. Well, it's a very different meaning. But can't bring themselves to say fanny. Oh man, I can't wait to go back there.

Which we're going to do soonish, right? I'd love to do in 2020. Maybe. Yeah. Alright. So twists came from twist and twirl, which meant girl, which is, they were talking about like dancing with a girl, twisting and twirling in a nightclub, let's say. So there is some connection in that one.

Yeah. So girl ended up becoming twist. So that sort of makes sense. There's another one called on your Todd after a guy named Todd Sloan, and it means on your own. Right. And the thing is, it's like on your Todd, it makes sense Sloan rhymes with own. It doesn't have to have any connection, but that one actually does. Yeah. Because Todd Sloan was a famous jockey in the 19th century. Like horse jockey? Yes.

What other kind is there? Disc jockeys. Oh yes, sure. So his book, his memoir was called Todd Sloan by himself, which is weird to refer to yourself in third person for your memoir. But there was a line in it that apparently, EastEnders in London really picked up.

I was left alone by those I never ceased to grieve for. It's still like the idea of being alone or on your own became synonymous with Todd Sloan and his thing just happened to rhyme with that. So it's one of those rare ones where there is a connection to it. And also Rare Chuck and that this is a 19th century horse jockey and still today on your Todd is recognized as on your own. Where's a lot of people probably have no idea

where it comes from? Who he is. And when that happens, that frequently that person gets moved out for potentially another celebrity, another word that's a little more understandable to recognize. Another new jockey to people today, right? Yeah, exactly. Which, can you name one?

Nope. Nope. All right, maybe we should take a break and we'll talk about some of the other, some other examples after this message. ["Selfie Sh of Nose"] This is In Retrospect, a podcast about pop culture from the 80s and 90s that shaped us. I'm very much a product of the pop culture I consumed. And I don't think that's a bad thing.

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She's like hold on a minute and it a, it was in a space blanket. It was like, earnest opens a sandwich over here. That was a good one. Not as good as part two. I saw that first one in the theater. Yeah. So here's some other examples that have, some of them have sort of stayed over in England

and some of them have found their way. Like apparently the term put up your dukes. Oh, I didn't know that. Cockney rhyming slang. And I didn't write down where dukes came from but that's where it was originally a Cockney rhyming slang. Term. Yeah, because so you would think it had to do a fists

or something like dukes for fists. What didn't I write that down? Okay, but so that's another really important point to say about cockney rhyming slang. It's frequently rhyming slang based on slang. So the word it's replacing is the slang word to begin with. So who knows what the dukes actually rhymed with at any point. Yeah, that's a good point.

So first of all, I've never heard this, blowing a raspberry. What? Have you heard of that? Yeah. That's tooting out of your... That, what I just did, is as much blowing a raspberry as actually farting. Oh, really?

Yeah. Okay. Well, I've heard of giving someone a raspberry like... That, that. Okay, that's the same thing. Yeah. Okay. Well, apparently that's derived from thing. Yeah. Okay. Well apparently that's derived from

raspberry tart slang for fart and that amazing. It's pretty great. Yeah So that one is one of the rare ones. I love talking about exceptions. Do you know that? Oh sure That's one of the rare ones that made its way to America because it right everyone but you know what blowing all the Resbury is I guess I'd never heard of the term blowing, but giving someone a raspberry, same thing. I found two more. One is controversial, it's not set in stone, but it's as good an explanation as any.

Get down to brass tax. I saw that one too. That's a stand-in for facts. Let's get down to the bear facts. Possibly, that's not done. One that is 100% as far as I can tell is bread. I saw that too. For money. In America, bread and honey became just bread. And it caught on here and caught on again just now. Well, bees and honey, though, was also for money. Right. Is that just one of the local, like,

depends on where you are, things? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, but in America, I mean, we use bread. Everybody calls it bread. Yeah, I didn't know that that had come back. Yeah, somebody wrote in to say it had come back. Let's get this bread, right?

I guess so. Okay. That sounds familiar. You need to spend more time on bread. Here's another one. Dog and bone stands in for phone. Call me on the more time on reddit. Here's another one. Dog and bone stands in for phone, call me on the dog and bone. Sure. And then Ed says there may be some kind of correlation between one syllable words that lead off that

phrase, staying in the phrase, but I don't there are some in the exceptions. I don't know if there is a rule. Exactly. And I think this is really worth saying. We looked all over the place. I know Ed did too, for straight up linguistic dissertations and papers on cockney rhyming slang. It's not there. No. It's just treated as fun and hilarious, even though it is its own made up language that's ever evolving still live has been around. We'll talk about the history in a minute for 150 plus years. But apparently no linguist has ever thought enough of it to sit down and write a genuine paper about it.

So we couldn't find that. But the one thing that really occurred to me was in looking into it. I don't know if it could ever be explained. I think it's the result of so many individual decisions and then collective agreements to take up and go along with those decisions. And those agreements can be totally undermined by a new individual decision that catches on.

How could you possibly map and even understand all or explain all of that different stuff? But even though we can't explain it, once you start to learn how it works, it's understandable. So you can't explain, but you can't understand it. Yeah, and it's like always wonder with any kind of slang or like who makes this stuff up, who sets the rules. It's probably just the kind of thing that just starts on a playground. Yeah. And spreads from there. Right. And gets codified unofficially. Yep. Then everyone's using it.

Sure. But I wonder if they're, I don't know, you can't trace this stuff, which is sort of frustrating as researchers. Right. Because I think we like to pinpoint things. Yeah, but it, I mean, people have tried to trace it and they've come awfully close. Well, we'll like to pinpoint things. Yeah, but I mean, people have tried to trace it and they've come awfully close. Well, we'll get to that in a minute. Okay. I wanna go over some more of these. All right.

I wanna get up on my plates and get out of here. Your plates of meat? Plates of meat, which is feet. Or between podcasts, you probably have to go take a rattle. Yeah. Rattle and hiss. Rattle and hiss, like a snake. You got it.

And that's means peepee. Exactly. And then, I guess we should talk about ours. Yes, sure. That's the one you were pretty excited about. Yes, because it goes even so much farther than ours even. Yeah, it's pretty convoluted. Okay. You want to take it?

No, go ahead. Okay. So ours, the very famous name for ass in the UK. Everybody knows that. Sure. It's actually, it comes from Aristotle, which you're like, well, what does that have to do with ass? Well, let me tell you, Aristotle is Cockney rhyming slang for bottle.

Again, the question is, what does that have to do with ass? Right. Well, originally, the Cockney Rhyming slang word for ass was bottle and glass. Right. It became short into bottle. Somebody came along and rhymed Aristotle with it. That got shortened to Eris and then to Ars. Crazy. Goes even further than that. Oh, yeah? I saw one plaster for ours. Plaster of Paris. Oh okay.

Paris. Aristotle, bottle, bottle and glass, ass. Wow. That's how deep the Cockney rhyming saying has covered up the collective ass of the UK. Yeah. And again, it's like why you can't put that in a book and explain it in any kind of way that makes sense. You got to do it on a podcast.

Or a paper. You just have to accept it. It's like that's how it happened on the street. I think that's a really good way to do it. On the streets of the East End, right? Right. On your cocaine. No, not your cocaine.

They do have, for all that we're saying about how don't look at glossaries and stuff like that, they do have dictionaries that you can buy if you're a total square. I would guess. It's probably not a cool thing to do. That's like saying, you know, I want to become a rapper, so let me get a rhyming dictionary. Yeah. Although I did have a rhyming dictionary at one point. Well rhyming, it's not, you know, just limited to cockney. We of course. Oh, of course of course, loved to rhyme. Yeah. Which is one assertion Ed makes for why it's popular or so long lasting. Well, should we talk about some of the theories on where it originated?

Because I looked at a bunch of places and I don't think, I mean, I think calling it theory is a little, I think they kinda know where it came from. They just don't know exactly why they can pinpoint it to like on this day, on this, in this place. Right. It's not a complete mystery, though. No, they've got it basically localized to about a one and a half mile area of London. And basically down to the year, it's just exactly where and exactly who's,

and exactly why are the real outstanding questions, which is actually a lot of questions. Yeah, one of the, one of the why's was that, and this one I think doesn't have as much credence now, but, but it's like the most common one. Right, is that you will hear that it was coded language created by criminals to keep the cops confused as to what was going on, which makes sense in one way because it certainly could cause

confusion. But it also, and I think Ed makes a pretty good point, where cops just hanging around over hearing things, why did they feel like they needed to create this whole language and cops, if they were street cops, would have figured this stuff out as well, you know, because it wouldn't have been that big of a secret. Yeah, there's this guy named Dick Sullivan who wrote an essay on the Victorian web, which is actually kind of cool. And he said the street cops would have come from the same areas and families and neighborhoods that the criminals would have.

So they would have been raised on this rhyming slang anyway. Sure. So it doesn't really hold up to scrutiny when you look at it like that it was a intentionally created coded language meant to confuse the cops. Right. Then that's not to say it nevertheless wasn't associated with some kind of criminal underworld East London types. Yeah, and it almost certainly was taken up by the Cocknates, but it wasn't necessarily Cocknays or criminals

who came up with this rhyming slang to begin with. There's this guy named John Camden-Hotten, and he wrote one of the better titled, or at least most directly titled, Books Have Ever Heard Of. And there's no colon. No, there's not. There are a couple of commas, though. Addictionary of modern slang, can't and vulgar words, used at the present day in the streets

of London. And he has a chapter on rhyming slang. And he basically says that it was two groups, shanturs andners, basically traveling salesmen who would stand on street corners and hawk their wares, and maybe pick your pocket while you were trying to buy something from them, and that they came up with Cockney Rhyming slang. Yeah, and that's all that enough to think

that that's probably true. Yeah, the Shaunters in particular spoke in like singing rhyming language, so it would have been pretty quick evolution. Yeah, I think this one makes a lot of sense. Street Cryers, England and London, especially, it has a long tradition of street corner barkers and things like this.

I remember seeing one myself when I traveled there in the 90s and I was like, they're still doing this stuff. It was like a box in the park where you can go stand on it and... So a box? Maybe. I mean, that's where that came from, right? Probably. And just, you know, shelter piece.

Sure. And it's all a guy doing it. And I thought, what year is this? This is wonderful. Right. It's fantastic. But in particular, the shanters, they sang and then sold penny ballads, sheet music of penny ballads, that they would write real quick after somebody famous died or there was a train wreck or something, they'd write a ballad about it, and then be out in the corner selling

these things. Because they were singing in rhymes and sing song, it's a really good bet that these guys were the ones who originated rhyming slang. But not necessarily for any kind of intentionally coded language, because that same guy, Dick Sullivan says, there's no reason for patters who sold their, you know, little geagalls or trinkets or whatever. I love that word.

Or Shaunters who were selling these penny bouts, they worked alone. There was no need for them to come up with a coded language. To communicate with one another. Yeah, in front of a customer who they were ripping off because they didn't need to communicate with one another in front of customers. Well, I saw that maybe they could communicate with each other

when customers were around or something, I don't know. Right. But the other part of that is that it supposedly flies in the face of how slang develops, that it's unintentional. Right. Like, you don't say, let's come up with a coded language and here's how it works. Yeah. Even like American teenagers when they have slang that their parents don't understand, like

you remember how that stuff went? It was something you just heard. You never sat around. Sure. I'm hip to that. And said, you know, like, hey, let's use this other word that our parents won't know what it means. We'll call it Pepsi one round the phone. There was also the Victorian backslang, which that was not cockney rhyming slang. That was just pronouncing words backwards.

Sort of simple. Like, y'all yob for boy. Yes. But something interesting about that is that it's based on the spelling, not the pronunciation. Right. Which suggests a strong degree of literacy, which you would probably not have found among at least the patterns. Right. Probably among the shunterers because they were writing songs and ballads. Right. So it's possible they came up with that too. But they think maybe it was butchers and butchers assistants who came up with backslang. Oh really? Yeah.

And actually two confused customers are to be able to talk about what price they should charge a customer in front of the customer. Right. So there is, like you take all these different pieces and you get the current idea and story for Cockney Rhyming slang. So there is, like you take all these different pieces and you get the current idea and story for Cockney Rhyming slang. But it's actually a bunch of different stuff that wasn't really all connected until later on.

Yeah, what it probably also was not, was Irish stock workers. Yeah. There was one theory being bandied about that Irish stock workers would come over and they would speak in this made up rhyming slang. So they could just talk among their Irish peers and the people of London wouldn't understand them.

Not much of this makes any sense at all. Because I think now you see it some in Ireland, but for all those years that it was prevalent in London, it was not in Ireland. Right. Unless they literally just made it up when they came over from Ireland. Right. Plus why would they not just speak Irish in front of the English?

Who might not speak it? Yeah. Or what would that be, Gaelic? Sure, I think so. We're getting so much of this wrong. Do you want to take a break and fact check everything and maybe just rewind and start over? Yeah, let's get our, wait, what was facts?

Our brass tax. That's right. So we gotta go get our brass straight. That's right. ["Safesha No"] This is In Retrospect, a podcast about pop culture from the 80s and 90s that shaped us. I'm very much a product of the pop culture I consumed, and I don't think that's a bad

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as a joke on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, we're back. It's been about 30 minutes since we left you guys. Fact check everything. And so far so good. Yeah, this is the perfect podcast. So you said at the beginning you teased out that it might not even have been cockney to begin with. Everything I saw kind of placed it in that East, I think they call it cheap side. Really?

Area where the cockney's were, but cockney was also, I mean, it's also not necessarily specifically one place, right? No, but if you're talking about Cockney people, supposedly the definition of a Cockney person is someone who's born within hearing distance of the bells of St. Mary Leboe in Cheapside, which was in London, what this guy, John Camden-Hotten, who was writing in 1860, and placed the origin of rhyming slang 12 to 15 years before. So this guy was like on top of it as it was happening. He placed it at a place called Seven Dials,

which is like a big market place. And I think still is, which is a mile and a half away from cheap side, which at the time was in Westminster at the time a different town. So you had City of London and then Westminster, which is where seven dials was. So if you believe Houghton, then it wasn't the Cockney at all who came up with that.

It was those patitors and shanturs. That's a different word than I said, no, shanturs. Well, Cockney has what that is though, is just sort of the working class. Right. I think used to be viewed as an educated and sort of lower class. That may be a bit harsh, but if anything, it was not the upper crust of British society. You know, the pub, the hard drinking pub goers. Rubba dub, dub goers.

Is that pubs? Yeah, which is another exception, because you go from one one syllable pub to rubber dub dub, and it actually has three rhymes in there. Oh, interesting. But that is Cockney Rhyming slang for pub. Well, but the Cockneys were also known for a bit more of progressive politics. And I think nowadays there can be a bit more of a pride of like a working class pride associated with it. I think there was back then too. Was there? But I think that's one reason also why the Cockney accent

and Cockney rhyming slang in particular was just treated shabbly and looked down on, you know, by the rest of England. Right. was just treated shabbly and looked down on, you know, by the rest of England. Right. Because it was supposedly associated with lower classes. Yeah, it also found its way to Australia, isn't that right?

And then somehow on the west coast of America where the Australian version came in. Yeah, and the prisons of the West Coast in the US, it was called Australian Rhyming slang. So I guess some cool guy from Australia showed up and was speaking in gibberish that just made everyone think I want to do this too. Right, it's kind of fun to go on YouTube though

and see some of these, you know, because it's such a big thing in England, it's been all over the BBC. I watched one episode of The Two Rhinies, where this priest at a sermon in Cockney Rhyming slang. It was very funny. And one of those sort of you know, 80s, I guess it was 80s, early 80s, BBC comedies are always fun. Right. You know, the production value is not all there. The Laft track is, it had to have been a Laft track. I don't think it was a studio audience. Although it may have been.

I don't know. It was hard to tell. That's during the transition. But there were other shows, not on your nelly and the Sweeney and the titles of both of those shows come from actual Cockney Rhyming slang as well. Yeah, the Sweeney is particularly dense.

It's short for Sweeney Todd, which was Rhyming slang for flying squad, which was a particular branch of the Metropolitan Police, kind of like major case. Oh, interesting. So the Sweeney was like the major case division of Metropolitan Police. So Nehli comes from the word Nehli Duff, the name Nehli Duff, which is apparently just a nonsense name. And that rhymes with puff, which means life,

so not on your nelly means not on your life. Yeah. Man, clearly. It's so dense. And then, of course, things like you mentioned, Guy Richie really brought it into the American consciousness in the 90s when he made those two movies. Right.

Yeah, you brought it into my consciousness. I'll tell you that. Yeah. Sure. So there's a really good question, Chuck, that I think we need to ask. How is it that in 2019, you and I are analyzing a hyper-local slang that came out of the 1840s in some very specific part of London. Like, how is Cogni rhyming slang still around? After all these years, when so much other slang has come and gone over the years, that we have no idea ever even existed.

What's the staying power of Cogni rhyming slang? Do you expect me to have an answer? I don't have one about why it's stuck around other than people, you know, if people don't still use it, then it would have fallen by the wayside. So clearly it's popular. Yeah. It seems to have gotten, and maybe this is just my recognition of it, but it seems to have gotten more popular in the last 20 years.

What I was reading is that especially in the UK, it's popularity is based on kitchiness. Yeah. You know, kind of like tips to irony. Like the Cockney rhyming word for wife is trouble and strife. So I imagine that probably doesn't go over very well if you don't call your wife that with a smile like you're joking. Right.

Kind of thing. So I think that's the current use of it. But I mean, it was used and it's still in use and there's still new words like posh and becks is the word for sex. Oh, really? That's pretty new. Apparently Britney Spears can be used for beers.

Which is great. And I saw one Nelson Mandela, if you're getting a Stella Artois. Yeah. Is it Nelson Mandela for Stella? So the fact that it's still evolving, still being contributed to, like these existing words are being replaced with new ones.

And the fact that it's 150 years old, I mean, there's got to be some thing to it that makes it more, I think it's just so hard to understand until someone explains it to you. I think it's fun. I think it's a fewfold. It's fun. That's a bit.

It's fun. It's... There is a code to it. And part of the fun is it, I think, is friends maybe trying to make something up and having it catch on. Sure. It's almost like a game, like a word game. Yeah, a bit.

Yeah. Did you just go a bit? Yeah. And then the unique Britishness of it all is has a lot to do with it, I think. Yeah, because even though it got exported to Australia, no one associated with Australia. Sorry, Australia. But if we like, if it really took off in America with hipsters, people in Britain would

probably be like, forget it. It's flown the, it's flown oil. What is flown the coop? What could you say for coop? It's, it's on the, uh, guinith and the goop. So the guinith, it's flown the guinith. Okay. We'll see. That one might catch on.

They can do this all day. No, some of them aren't so good, but other ones are gems. The why of it all, though, to begin with, I thought was interesting. I asked you why and you said you don't know. No, you said why is it sticking around? I mean, why did it start to begin with? Oh, okay. And I think, you know, Ed makes a pretty good point that they're just rhyming period has always been a thing.

Right. Even in the States and he uses examples like see a later alligator after a while, crocodile. Like I remember saying that when I was a kid. I just said that yesterday. Did you really? Yeah. See a later alligator?

There's just something about it. Maybe it's the child like nature of it. That's fun. It makes old people feel young again. Yeah, it's, I mean, like it takes something boring and adds a little flair to it, you know? Or like Yiddish, like a fancy shmancy. A lot of that. People say that kind of stuff all the time.

I never associated it with Yiddish, but it absolutely is, isn't it? I think so. I mean, not outright Yiddish, but... Yiddish culture? I think so. But yeah, it is strange. It is strange that it started to begin with. And I wish there was a definite person zero that we could point to.

And on the streets of London, and someone thought it was funny, and then they told two friends and so on and so on. Yep. Richie started it and Pazzy and Ralph Malf took it from there and it just kept spreading like wildfire. You got anything else? Yes, I found a 2012 survey by the Museum of London and it set off a bunch of articles

about how Cockney Rhymen's slang is dying. But if you read the article, it says that 40% of respondents believe it was dying, which means 60% don't believe it's dying. Yeah, so that's good. Yeah, and then they go on to talk about how there's all these, you know, new words that are being replaced and added. So I don't think it's going anywhere. I think its usage has become more ironic and everything, but it's still like most, most Britain still understand porky

pies means lies. Yeah. Like don't tell me any porkies. Give it to me straight. Well, I think it was good we were able to sit here and have a good rabbit and pork. Sure. Or torque. Apparently rabbit and pork is talk. But that was one other thing. Studying this, there's reasons people study this. It gives you a window into the past. For example, like pronunciations. Yes, so farthing used to be a Camden.

Farthing is like a quarter penny that they don't use anymore. But it used to be called a Camden after Camden Gardens, which tells linguists if they would get off their desks and study this thing, that they used to pronounce farthings as farthings. Oh, interesting. Or at least it's something that rhyme closely to gardens. But that's why people study this allegedly. Amazing.

Well, if you want to know more about Cockney Rhyming slang, get yourself a great Cockney Rhyming dictionary and go to England and just start talking up the storm. They love that stuff. They love it, they can't get enough, they'll treat you like one of their own. That's right. And since we said that, it's time for listener May.

A Satanic Panic. We just re-release that as a Saturday select. I think that was, was that one of your picks or what I'm mind? I don't know. I'm not sure, but it was a good pick for October, one of our favorite episodes.

Yeah, it was great. I think of all time. We got a lot of people emailing again about it after listening to it for the first time. Hey guys, listen to say Tannen Panic and realize that a story about that. It grew up in a suburb of California. By the teenage years, I'd become what you might call God.

We're black, spike jewelry, dark makeup, and all that stuff. My town had a 10 p.m. curfew, and one night when I was 14, my friends and I were walking home, after curfew got pulled over by the cops. They questioned and searched us, then called the parents, except for mine. Not sure why, but the officer insisted on driving me home. Once there, he also demanded to come inside my home.

I was too scared to argue, so I let him in. He went to my bedroom. This is getting creepy. I was really worried about where this was headed. He went to my bedroom, which is full of posters of Marilyn Manson and the Crow and stuff like that, and he started going through my things. What? He told me he was concerned because Satanist are out there, and that if I wasn't careful,

I'd find myself sacrificed. He told me there were rituals and barns that require virgins, and I should rethink my lifestyle before I got raped or hurt. I thanked him for his concern, and I quietly said everything nice that I could to get him out of my house before he woke up my father. Situation, this happened in 2000. After hearing your episode today, it's hard to believe that the residue

of the satanic panic would still be around then, especially in the police force. Just to be clear, the suburb I lived in had very little crime, so the officer was very surprising indeed. My boys and I love your show. I recommend it to everyone. Nice.

That is from Lisa G. It says, really something, Lisa? I know, kind of disturbing. Yeah. Like I don't know if that cop was a good guy. I don't know. It started to go down a pretty creepy road there. It really did.

Yeah. Maybe he was just looking for some pod or something. And he was just coming up for the cover story. Yeah, I gotta get in your room and go through your stuff. Right exactly. You got any weed. Yeah, I gotta get in your room and go through your stuff. Right exactly. You got any weed? Yeah, really. I was relieved to know that it just ended in the cop leaving.

Yeah, agreed. You went to Bub and Beyond and not in a good way. Right. Well, thanks a lot, Lisa and Clay, that you made it through that and that you and your boys are listening to stuff you should know. Could you get any cooler? I don't think so.

Well, if you want to be cool like Lisa and her boys, you can get in touch with us by going on to stuff you should know, could you get any cooler? I don't think so. Well, if you want to be cool like Lisa and her boys, you can get in touch with us by going on to Stuff You Should Know, checking out our social links there, and as always send us an email to StuffPodcast at iHeartRadio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Sometimes the pop culture we love just teens hits differently in retrospect. Maybe it's a tabloid story we couldn't get enough of or an illicit student-teacher relationship on our favorite show. We're Suzy Bannakaram and Jessica Bennett,

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