Stuff You Should Know - Selects: History's Greatest Traitors

Episode Date: January 13, 2024

The annals of history hold a special place for people who have carried out treachery and betrayed their own. Thousands of years later, their names are still synonymous with being a scoundrel around the world. From Marcus Brutus to Vidkun Quisling and more, in this classic episode Josh and Chuck examine some of the bigger turncoats to live -- and exonerate others.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Maybe you've stayed in an Airbnb before and thought to yourself, hmm, this seems pretty doable. Maybe my place could be an Airbnb. That's right, it could be as simple as starting with a spare room or your whole place when you're away, but the point is you could be sitting on an Airbnb and not even know it. Yeah, maybe a music festival or some big tournament is coming to town, and you want to get out of town.

Well, you could Airbnb your home and make some extra money. That's right, or listen to this, what if you got a vacation plan for this summer? When you're away, your home could be an Airbnb. Yep, whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or for something a little more fun, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.ca slash host.

A group of high school students started a project to research a string of unsolved murders. There is no profile of this killer except for the ones the students created. What if this guy's still alive, like what if he comes after us? Once you start getting a few tips or a few leads or few identifications, then the co-case isn't so cold anymore. This is Murder 101. Listen to Murder 101 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello everybody, it's Josh and for this week's Selective, chosen our 2013 episode on history's greatest traders. Turns out history is rife with treacherous people, and if there's any lesson to learn from this episode, it's be careful who you cross. Because once your name is associated with treachery, it turns out that that stays pretty sticky. It's tough to get rid of. Enjoy.

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey and welcome to the podcast on Josh Clark, there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. So Chuck. Yeah. I have a story for you. All right, Tari. Come back with me. Way back machine? Sure. Okay. Yeah. I have a story for you. Alright, let's hear it. Come back with me. Way back machine?

Sure. Okay. A couple hours ago. So here we are. It's December 22nd, 1972. Oh yeah. Something really bad is about to happen. It's a down-of-fran in this TV.

Okay. Our good friend and hero, Peter Brady, is trying out for the school play. Yeah. It's a story of the American Revolution. I remember that. He tries out for George Washington, but he doesn't get it.

And in fact, the name of this episode that we're sitting here watching on this nice brown and orange shag carpeting is called, everybody can't be George Washington. Peter doesn't get the part of George Washington, but he does get another very important part, the part of Benedict Arnold. Well, at first he's like, hey, it's a part, it's a speaking part. I'm pretty happy I'm going to do my best. I was a tree in my last six plays.

Right. This is a huge step up for him. Until his classmates point out that Benedict Arnold was a trader, and since Peter's playing a trader, he must be some sort of trader too. So, basically, the whole school turns on him because he's playing Benedict Arnold. I'm just really kind of silly. It is very silly and of course Peter tries to get out of the play again and again. Yeah. Effecting Larry and Gidey's pretending as a limp. All of this stuff.

For it's saying he forgets his lines. Yeah, I think I remember that. And finally successful and then his dad points out that he has turned into a traitor now, Peter against the whole class, the whole cast. He don't tell me, he had a lesson for him, and he sat him down and had a talking to it. It was a good one, yeah. It was a good one. And so Peter goes in and plays Benedict Arnold

and knocks it out of the park and learned a lesson in the process. But the whole premise of this episode of Brady Bunch is that Peter was suffering from a smear campaign started 200 years before by George Washington. And it was so successful that even today, you can get a rise out of somebody by calling on Benedict Arnold if they've done something, Traderus. Yeah, and we've learned there quite a few synonyms with Trader that were in fact notorious traders I give you call someone a Judas right or a

Benadict Arnold or what? Equasantly. Yeah, that's might be popular in some parts of the world, but this is the USA. Sure So we call people Ben and Dict Arnold. That's right Well, let's talk about this. Yeah, let's talk about Ben and Dict Arnold to start Okay, well, you know first of all we should point out that this is a curated show Well, let's talk about this. Let's talk about Benedict Arnold to start. Okay. Well, you know, first of all, we should point out that this is a curated show from our buddy Sam T. Garden. This is the summer of Sam then.

Yeah, we're continuing into our second summer of Sam. And for those of you that don't know, Sam is a local fan of ours. And a good kid. And he's actually on our TV show. He was in an episode, the Make It Rain episode. Yeah, it's one of our softball teammates. And Sam's a good guy, and he sends in great ideas. So we like to highlight to them when we do them. Yeah. All right, it's a summer of Sam. Hey, Sam, hope you're doing well, buddy. So we're a ton of Benedict Arnold and why there was such a smear campaign against him.

And it turns out rightfully so, although possibly I think a lot of Arnold's side of the story has been lost to history. Well, yeah. Coincidentally, or not coincidentally, some of these traders that we're going to mention today, history is born out that they may not have been traders. But been an eternal definitely was. No, he was a document in traders. Yeah.

As traders and treasonous as you can get, as far as in the context of war. Yeah. So early on in life things started out pretty well. He was born into some wealth, but his family, specifically his father, squandered their fortune with some bad business dealings. Apparently he was quite a drinker. Oh, you turned into the town drunk. Yeah, well, that'll do it.

They lost their family estate because of them. They lost their dough, three of his sisters, or sorry, siblings died from yellow fever. He had to drop out of school. Yeah, he became an apothecary. Yeah, so things weren't like, rosy for the guy. No. Although he did quite well

later on in the military. Well, he did quite well even before that as a merchant and actually by the age of 22, was able to buy back his family's estate. Oh, really? Which he then turned around and sold it a profit. Well, good for him. So I guess he wasn't the sentimental type.

Flip this estate. Yeah, I think it wasn't that he wanted his family's estate back. He just didn't want to lose out on the potential profit from it, I guess. Yeah, and he seemed like... He may have been like ADD before there was ADD. Yeah. Yeah, from the sounds of reading his thing, I was just like, man, this kid had ADD. He was like, always in trouble, he's getting kicked out of school.

Yeah. But it was just because he was like busy. Yeah. He wasn't like a bad kid, it seemed like, but he was just always had something going on. He finally, I guess, found his niche and he did become quite a businessman and fabulously wealthy, but he wasn't wealthy enough in his opinion, and in fact, joined the Sons of Liberty, the revolutionary group in New England,

because he was mad that his riches were being taxed by England. Yeah, he liked the dough. He did. And he did have a pretty remarkable military career in Jefferson and Washington, where big supporters of him for a while. Yeah, but he also suffered. Apparently, there are a lot of petty jealousies that they don't talk about among the founding fathers and the second and third echelons of all these guys.

And apparently Benedict Arnold frequently suffered. Yes, he was slighted a lot. A lot, yeah, he missed out on honors and stuff like that. And he doesn't seem like the type to let things go. Nor was he the type to air his feelings. So he just kind of sat there and stewed. Right, yeah, I saw most kind of sat there and stewed. Right. Yeah, I saw most of the time he was slided. He fought really hard to get either

reassigned or reappointed to the position he was going for. And so you're right, he couldn't let it go. He needed therapy, but instead he was appointed to run West Point, not the military academy. The fort, right? Yeah, this is pretty, I guess they probably named it after that though, didn't they? I think it turned into the military academy. The fort, right? Yeah, this is pretty, I guess they probably named it after that though, didn't they? I think it turned into the military academy. Okay. But I think this is before it was an academy. Yeah, it was definitely. Yeah. And so he, you know, went and been a dict Arnold on everyone. And little did he know he was being a benedict Arnold. But he sold secrets to the British, like plans, war secrets, armament locations, for about three million bucks, I think it was 10,000 pounds at the time.

Yeah, so he, the reason he did this ostentibly was A, because he'd been slided. But also, and this is what it's been lost to history, is that he came to believe that the revolution in lost steam, that the people running the show didn't really know what they were doing and probably wouldn't form a very good post-revolutionary government if successful. So did he genuinely think the Brits were going to do a better job? Supposedly, that's what historians say, but again, he didn't really, he may have been the type to just kind of say that's what he was thinking to. That's what somebody wrote down at some point. But he ultimately said, the colonies are better

back in the hands of England again. So not only am I going to try to sell the map to West Point, I'm going to join the British army, which he did and and led at least two raids against American revolutionary forces. So he really switched sides. Oh yeah. Yeah, and in 1780, I can't believe whoever wrote this article put that. When the plot was intercepted, he went from zero. He wrote a zero. I know. I know. I was all of a sudden I was in like an Us magazine or something. Or like a Springer show. I know I was all of a sudden I was in like an us magazine or something like a spring or show. Yeah, that's what happened he was convicted of treason and His name was erased from the the record books and England promised him they're like hey if you defect over here We're gonna give you land in Canada. Yeah, we're not gonna give you land here

We'll give you land in Canada some money and we'll promise your family pensions and you're going to be a British provincial brigadier general and he's like that sounds pretty great but as it turned out he didn't get that many great assignments in the military in England he was even sort of I don't think anyone likes a traitor. No that's something on their clank. Yeah that comes up again and again like yeah even the side that you're trying to or whatever, they, yeah, they're like your trader. Well, I think it's because basically you're just a big liar. Yeah.

And you're treacherous. Yeah, and so people are like, how can I trust you? Thanks for doing that, but can you go live in Canada? But it does pop up again and again. Anybody who's ever turned trader and expected some sort of glory has

been sorely disappointed. Yeah, so in England, he was sort of poo-pooed. Then he moved to Canada. They didn't like him. And then he moved back to England and died there without ever making a whole lot of money or getting any important military action. Right. So sort of a sad ending.

It really is. And today, if you go to West Point, there's, I guess, 12 plaques of some of like the head revolutionary generals. Oh, yeah. And his name is literally wiped from the record. It has the year of his birth. And I think the town of his birth, well, his name is not on the plaque any longer. Just as booze and it is sme smeared or there's a sharpie through it. All right, so that's been in the journal. Let's go a little further back. Okay. Let's go way back. Okay. I'm talking like maybe 44 BCE. Cassius and Brutus. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And here's the thing with these guys, they were definitely traders as well, but they're also singled out. Clearly, they killed Caesar. We all know on the Iads of March, which is Caesar the Senator and DFL, dictator for life, which self declared. But they're like 60 dudes that took part in this. Yeah, and Caesar was self declared.

Caesar fought a civil war. One, informed a triumvirate with the people that he vanquished. So he wasn't entirely dictatorial. Although, as like popular opinion started to swell around him, he's like, maybe I will just be leader for life. Let's save all those voting days and I'll just be leader for the rest of the time I'm alive. And Cassius and Brutus had both fought against Caesar in the Civil War. And despite that, Caesar pardoned both of them and gave them positions of power in his new government.

And brand new knives. And they said, still not enough not enough well Cassius especially apparently he was very envious of Caesar and his power he was the rabble rouser and that that was ultimately his motive although he he used the concept of the Republic of Rome turning into a dictatorship to lead the the assassination against Caesar yeah and even cooked up evidence and letters of support to show Brutus, because Brutus was much friendlier with Caesar. They were buds. Right.

But he was swayed by Cassius and said, you know what, this is going to be good for our country, or our kingdom, or whatever they were calling it at the time. And took part, but they weren't like the lead. I mean, maybe they cooked it up, but they weren't the initial aggressors um... i thought brudas was the first one to stab cesar now this dude uh... tilius cember

came out and like pulled down his tunic first of all did he really yeah i guess he said pulled it down but i don't know what that means if he i imagine he was pulling it he panicked either panst them or no tunics like a shirt thing So I thought he pulled it over his head like a hockey player might in a fight. It's like reverse pants He reverse pants them and Caesar was like, you know, what is this violence? Going on and then another dude Casca he came out with a knife and Caesar blocked him away and

Casca he came out of with a knife and Caesar blocked him away and defended himself and was like Basically what's going on here? And then that's when everyone sure 60 guys descended upon him Wow among you know, Brutus might have been the lead of that pack though. Yeah, okay Okay, well they stabbed the crap out of him So I knew I thought Brutus was the first one to stab him I knew that some other guy was the first one to strike him and it may have been the guy who reverse pants him Till he hits him, yeah You mean I were at Pompeii we actually walked around Pompeii and there's a table there and it belonged to that guy

Oh really and I guess somebody in Pompeii like bought the table of the first guy to strike Caesar and like had it in their Via and it's still there today And did you eat at it? No, we stared at it. Okay. We looked at it from like three meters away. Oh, gotcha. You have to say meters because you're in Italy. That's obnoxious. And apparently only one of the stabs,

he was stabbed 23 times and like continued to be stabbed even after he was on the floor dead. But only one of them was a fatal blow. He was like the second stab I think went through his heart and the rest were just, you know. But before that, it's all to injury. When Brutus stabbed him, Caesar very famously said,

a two-bruté, which literally means and you, Brutus, or what the hell, Brutus? Yeah, you too. And supposedly he kind of gave up at that point, like it killed his spirit when he saw Brutus or what the hell, Brutus? Yeah, you too. And supposedly he kind of gave up at that point, like it killed a spirit when he saw Brutus was involved. Yeah. But I don't know if that's true. Yeah, supposedly he didn't want to live

in a Brutusless world. In a world where even Brutus could assassinate him. So he resigned himself to dying and hence became a hero. It's very sad. It was on my birthday. I don't know if it was... Is it the 15th? Mine's the 15th too, but not a mark. That's right. So, oh also too, apparently that was the first autopsy report. Oh really? The first postmortem death report was made on Caesar.

God, the Greeks man man if that's true I've heard the Romans whoops, whatever. I'm really glad I caught that one Yeah, it's still probably not gonna leave their email No, I don't want to save on these two traders No, I oh yes, Dante had a special hatred for Brutus and Cassius and in his inferno he says that They are being perpetually eaten by two of Lucifer's three mouths. Wow And the third mouth is reserved for the next guy. We'll talk about a little guy named Judas Iscaria

Oh really? Yeah, Satan's Third Mouth. So Lucifer's three mouths are eating caches, brudas, and Judas. Wow. All right, Judas is one of these that recent evidence has emerged where he may not have been such a traitor, but we'll get into that. But then that was refuted as well.

Everyone obviously knows the Judas kiss, very famously Judas, Betrayed Jesus. He was one of the disciples, he'd betrayed Jesus with a kiss. And it was actually a signal to the guard to come and grab him. I guess he was identifying him. Yeah, apparently the Romans didn't know who this Jesus was, at least by sight.

And Judas went and said, hey, you guys want this Jesus? What do you give me? And the signal was, like, well, you kiss the guy that's Jesus and we'll come get him. And we'll give you 30 pieces of silver. 30 pieces of silver. I mean, the West egg inflation calculator doesn't go back know that date, but I can imagine it still probably wasn't that much. 30 pieces of silver?

I have no idea. Well, apparently it was used later on to buy a field to turn into a potter's field to bury unclaimed dead. Oh, really? But I mean, it's a field. It couldn't have been that much. Like how much was land going for back then, in the Middle East?

They had tons of land. OK, so Judas portrays Jesus. He was, we didn't know much about his life at the time. But recently, there has been, I think, in 2000, one of the gospel, a new gospel was revealed, the gospel of Judas, supposedly. Colin, my story, my side of things. And it was, of course, a papyrus document dating to the second century AD. And it was written about in a book called The Lost Gospel.

And it portrays this Judas as more of a facilitator of what Jesus wanted. Basically Jesus was like, hey, turn me in because this is my destiny. Yeah. Like sacrifice yourself, I sacrifice myself. Right. And we all go on to live in heaven and fulfill our destinies. Yeah, until a lot of people were like, okay, I kind of like this different view of Judas, and it makes Jesus even more prescient than he appears in the Bible. Sure. Because he's betrayed by someone he thought was his friend.

In this, he is commanding Judas, he's asking him to do this. So it's just an all-around great view of the story when, when. But unfortunately, apparently there's some problems that a lot of scholars, gnostic scholars have with the translation. And that if you just tweak a few things to the way that the gnostic scholars think it should be translated, that all just goes right out the window and actually Judas is not only a horrible treacherous Trader. He's actually a demon from the 13th level of

Being. Yeah, so quite two different stories. Yeah, all by changing a few words in this Coptic text which isn't the easiest stuff to translate like it's tough, you know It's not like and even the person that Pupued the original translation was like, this is a very hard job. I'm not saying they necessarily did it on purpose, but that's not what I think it says. And that was April Dekonic, a professor of biblical studies at Rice University. And I don't know, did other people come out and support that? I can really find much. I don't know. And apparently actually in the Bible, it's hinted at that Jesus could have known about it.

But, well, does any say like one of you will betray me? I mean, at least you did. Yeah, you definitely said that. Yeah. The last temptation of Christ, yeah. Who Harvey Kiteld has a pretty good Jesus, or Judas. Yeah, yeah, you know, Willem Dafoe. Yeah, that was a good movie, but Yeah, that was how I when I like anything I'd ever heard I always thought like Jesus knew it was just never as explicit as this gospel of Judas Put it right and then gospel Judas say even claim that Jesus even asked Judas like, hey, will you do this for me? Right. Do me a solid.

So, um, Kiss me, put one right here. Right, so Judas realizes what he's done. Feels horribly guilty, tries to give the silver back. The high priests that he sold Jesus out to won't take the money. And so he throws it on the temple floor. They end up figuring out that it can be used for a potter's field and they use that 30 pieces

over for that. And then Judas goes off and hangs himself. Yeah, and I don't think we said Jesus was crucified. I thought that went without saying, but in case there's like one person out there was like, what happened to Jesus? All right, whatever it became a Jesus. That's what happened.

And then Judas supposedly fell headlong and his body opened up and there, if you go back and read some scholarly translations, they think that his body opened up means that he was left it, his body was left hanging for a while, out in the heat. And when it finally fell, like a branch broker, whatever, and it fell, it kind of ruptured.

Chris. Where'd you find that out? I don't remember somewhere online. Wow. Yeah, it was, yeah, they were talking about how he went headlong. He became headlong. And they were saying, like, if you just switch out like a couple of letters, headlong becomes swollen. And then that would explain why his body opened up. Wow.

Yeah. And now Judas and Judas Kiss are both part of the lexicon and, you know, in terms of betrayals. Man. You know? Treacherous. Treacherous, though. I know.

Thanks, Sam. From the studio who brought you the number one podcast, The Pike to Massacre. This is Murder 101. A group of high school students started a project to research a string of unsolved murders. Those murders happened in the mid 1980s. He's out there doing stuff. He just didn't stop. Everything that the student was predicted through their profile turned out to be accurate.

Redhead killer profile, male Caucasian, five, nine, the six, two, one 80, two, 270 pounds, unstable home, absent father and a domineering mother. Right handed, IQ above 100, most likely heterosexual. There is no profile of this killer except for the ones the students created. Just because some of these women no longer have people to speak for them

does not mean that they deserve to not be so people. What if this guy's still alive? Like, what if he comes after us? I said, are you gonna kill me me if you say yes? Yes. Listen to Murder 101 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Discover the heartwarming and hilarious world of sibling connections on sibling revelry

with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson. You might be asking yourself, what is sibling revelry? Yeah, well, we just made it up. They'll have some laughs, and maybe inspire some people along the way with universal tales of what it's like to grow up with brothers and sisters. We're full blood siblings, the only full blood sibling. And our family? Well, not in the world.

I mean, in the whole world. That's just it, like no one. Dive into family tales, and explore the human mind with guests like Joel and Benji Madden. And it's fun because we've decided to open it up, you know, to really like all kinds of different siblings and it's going to be an awesome season. It's more than a podcast. It's a celebration of the ties that bind us. Listen to sibling revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast is now the greatest podcast of all time. And I got some friends with me.

Victory Light is a foul. So get your cup ready, because it's about the run of over. You can listen to Victory Light on the IHR radio app, Apple Podcast, or whatever you've seen this movie. I love this movie. The assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford. Yeah, we've talked about it. It's a good movie. Very good movie written and directed by Andrew Dominic and has Paul Schneider in the modern buddy Paul Schneider. Yeah. Schneider.

Right. He listens. Oh, hey. He's in it. Yeah, he's one of the gang and he's a great actor. We've since become like email pals. That's neat. Yeah.

So that was an excellent movie. I'm sure Snyder did fantastic in it. He did great. Schneids? Schneids. And it seems to me, I don't know a lot about the whole saga of Jesse James, especially his demise. Yeah.

But it seemed to be pretty true to everything I've ever heard about it. Yeah, I think the movie was pretty accurate. Yeah. And it was great, like Gorgeous to look at, beautifully filmed. Yeah. And not just because Brad Pitt was in it. Ha, ha, ha.

But Casey Eiffleck as Robert Ford was amazing. He really did. So anyway, if you haven't seen that movie, go out and see it in the meantime. We'll spoil it for you. I think it was nominated for an Academy Award. I can't imagine how he wasn't. Yeah.

He was so creepy. So what's the deal with Jesse James? Well, Jesse James was a member of the James gang, the leader, a full partner. Well, I think he and his brother Frank were kind of co-leaders. Oh, really? That's the impression I have. Like Frank's still on. Yeah.

And they were very successful at robbing trains, robbing people, robbing banks, robbing everything. And they became outlaw folk heroes. Everybody loved to hate, but they also still loved. Well, they didn't kill people. No, not until the second to last robbery by Jesse James. They botched it and a couple of people died. Most of the James gang was caught and Jesse and Frank went off and assembled a new gang

that included Robert Ford. Yeah, he was pretty new. He had long tried to get in the James gang and was sort of shunned as a little weird and like not the most skilled robber and gunman and it wasn't taking very seriously which always bother him right so Jesse James pulls off one last train robbery in 1870 and decides to retire frank james retires and rubber for kind of tanks along with Jesse James the rest of his life and The governor of Missouri put a bounty on Jesse James head of I believe $10,000, which is pretty substantial for 1870.

Sure. And in 1882, Robert Ford took the governor of Missouri up on this, apparently met with him. And not only said I'm going to do this, I want this reward, I'm going to split it with my brother here. But I also want to this, I want this reward, I'm gonna split it with my brother here. Yeah, but I also wanna be, I want immunity from my crimes. Yeah, well he was supposedly just supposed to capture him.

Oh, okay. And did the shooting on his own volition. And there's a woodcutting in this article of Jesse James dropping a feather duster, just like he does in the movie. Oh, yeah. He stands on a chair in his own home to dust a picture and probably Ford shoots him in the back of the head.

Yeah, and kills him. Just right there, very like Loki and anticlimactic. With his wife home and everything. Yeah. And then they leave. And so Robert Ford kind of like I think Benedict Arnold expected to be considered something of a hero. Yeah. And he was considered a zero. Yeah. Yeah. He was actually he and his brother were both indicted, found guilty, sentenced to hang, and pardoned

in a single day. That's a heck of a day yeah pretty like emotional rollercoaster going on there and they became a ostracized socially um... robert forges became the but many jokes and then finally um... one day he was confronted by a man who sought him out because he wanted to kill robert for it for to gain his own acclaim yeah Edward o'kele uh... brought a shotgun into a he was uh... a bar owner, I think, at the

time. Robert Ford was. And after, by the way, they toured in a touring production, like recreating the murders. Yeah, Sam Rockwell. And so Edward O'Kelly goes in the bar with a shotgun, says, hello, Bob. He turns around, shoots him in the throat. And he gets a sentence commuted after a petition and is pardoned for killing Robert Ford. Yeah, back then, the, that's prairie justice. Bob Rool definitely had like a,

a ground hold. Yeah, I don't know what that is, but I think I got my point across. Yeah, they were like, he was a coward and you shot him, so that makes you a good guy. Exactly. So that's Robert Ford, you got anything else? Nope. Should we move on to Matahadi? Yeah, I knew next to nothing about Matahari. Yeah, same here. She turned out to be a pretty fascinating woman. Yeah, possibly not a trader at all. Yeah. Actually, probably not a trader at all. Yeah. Let's let's talk about her. Well,

she was a very sexual being. She was very close to her father, apparently, who dote it on her. And she has been described as sex as being her driving force. And she was said to have an insatiable longing for male attention, her entire life life and for the time period early 1900s she really really slept around yeah and she didn't just like you the sex with the men she liked them to buy her stuff oh yes well she used to as a means for sure yeah she she blew through a lot of guys money right yeah and just love to live lavishly rack racked up tons of debt, and became something of a toast among Parisian society, European society actually. Yes,

she was Dutch, we should point out. Yeah, her real name was Marguerita Zelli. Yeah, but she looked like Indian and she tried to remake herself as this Indian exotic Indian dancer. I read Indonesian. Oh, Indonesian? Yeah, because Mauna Hari is Malaysian. I have the dawn, which means sunrise. Gotcha. So her name was sunrise, the stripping dancer.

Well, and she didn't just dance. Like this was at a time when the Mulan Rouge was like they were like pulling their Scirts up a little bit and showing some ankle and some knickers and she was like taking it to you know another level Apparently in people's living rooms. Yeah private dances like traveling dancing Like really erotic and exotic stuff for the time. So from what I understand, she was also a sometime prostitute when things were really bad and true. And then she, but ultimately she just kind of went through

succession of lovers around Europe. And at one point she found herself in... I guess. In Amsterdam. And was approached by a German officer and said, hey, we want you to spy for us. Here's 20,000 francs and some invisible ink. And you're now a German spy.

Right. And she's like, whatever, mine, air. Thanks for the money, sucker. And through a way, the invisible ink, supposedly, and never spied for Germany. But she still had a code name, H-21. And as far as Germany was concerned, she was a spy for them, even though she didn't take it seriously apparently, never carried out any spying activities.

Right. So she had a reputation as a German spy. Yeah, without actually spying yet. Right. And she was, this one writer puts it She was traveling alone. She was wealthy. She was an excellent linguist and very foreign and very educated and Admitted to having lovers and like all of this stuff For the time just meant we don't trust you even if we don't have evidence

Right, this makes you untrustworthy right so At some point the French decided that they were going to recruit her to become a French spy. This is German World War I. Yeah. Even though they already suspected she was a German spy, she was sent around to try to get to... I don't remember what country they were trying to get her into. Of Vittel? Oh well the town of Vittel, once she was trying to go there. She went to Russia. She ended up going there for a little while in exchange for becoming a French spy,

agreeing to spy for the French. Exactly. She ended up in Spain and came across this German officer and apparently he suspected her of being a spy. So when she started asking him questions, he gave her old information.

Yeah, well they went to bed together as well. Sure. We should mention this thing is just rifled sex. Right. And he gave her some old information. The Frenchman, who, the French intelligence officer, who recruited her as a spy, but still suspect her as a German spy, finally said, you know what? I think that what you were really doing was giving French secrets to the German, you're a double agent and we're going to arrest you. And she was arrested in France. Again, no evidence. No evidence whatsoever, and tried for treason and convicted.

Yeah, and basically Thumbna knows that the whole experience and was like, I'm going to hold my head high, I'm going to blow you a kiss right before you shoot me in the firing squad. Well, supposedly it me in the firing squad. Well supposedly it wasn't the firing squad, it was two nuns that she became friends with and her lawyer who also she had slept with. That's who she blew kisses to. But she refused to blow on thought she blew. Oh, I thought she blew. Okay. That's what it said in this article. Gotcha. I saw elsewhere, it was like to the nuns. She also slept with her headmaster when she was 16.

Yeah. And got kicked out of school for it. Yeah. So she refuses a blindfold in the end. She's all dressed up in everything for her execution. She's standing ankle deep in mud on a cold October day in 1917. Yeah. She refuses to be tied to the pole behind her. She refuses a blindfold and is executed by firing squad. So the weird thing is, is about 30 years later, one of the prosecutors in France admitted, quote,

they didn't have, sorry, here's the quote, there was quote, not enough evidence to flog a cat. That she very, very likely did not ever spy for Germany, made that one half-hearted attempt in France. Just to get the spy for France to make some money and was executed and still didn't protest. I wonder if there's been a good movie on her. Surely there has.

I don't know if there's been a recent one. She was tall too. She was like almost six feet tall. Yes, she looks very low. Yeah, look at her. It's hard to like sometimes it's tough to look at pictures from back then and see the attraction, you know. Yeah, it's just a different time period. Yeah.

I think it was the fact that she took off her clothes and was real sexy and tall. Right, yeah. Slept with everybody. From the studio who brought you the number one podcast, The Piked and Massacre. This is Murder 101. A group of high school students started a project to research a string of unsolved murders. If those murders happened in the mid-1980s.

He's out there doing stuff. He just didn't stop. Everything that the students predicted through their profile turned out to be accurate. Redhead killer profile, male Caucasian, 5'9-6'2, 182-270 pounds, unstable home, absent father and a domineering mother. handed IQ above 100 most likely heterosexual there is no profile of this killer except for the ones the students created just because some of these women don't over have people to speak for them does

not mean that they deserve to not be so people are what if this guy still alive like what if he comes after us I said are you gonna kill me? Yes's a yes? Yes. Yes. Listen to Murder 101 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Discover the heartwarming and hilarious world of sibling connections on sibling revelry

with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson. You might be asking yourself, what is sibling revelry? Yeah, well, we just made it up. They'll have some laughs, and maybe inspire some people along the way with universal tales of what it's like to grow up with brothers and sisters. We're full blood siblings. The only full blood sibling.

And our family. Well, not in the world. I mean, in the whole world. That's just it, like, no one. Dive into family tales and explore the human mind with guests like Joel and Benji Madden. And it's fun because we've decided to open it up, you know, to really like all kinds of different siblings.

And it's going to be an awesome season. It's more than a podcast. It's a celebration of the ties that bind us. Listen to sibling revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson. On the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Yo, what's up, it's your brother, kid. Marrow the human, do a rag, flat, me, not a mean. The plane team is supernova.

You feel me? The God himself. You're favorite Dominican uncle. And I'm back. The greatest block of all time, Victory Light is now the greatest podcast of all time. And I got some friends with me. Victory Light is a foul. So get your cut ready,

because it's about the run of over. You can listen to Victory Light on the IHR radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasting. So, Montagari probably was not a trader and they really had a lot of trouble trying to prove that another famous trader was actually a trader. And that woman was Iva Toguri. Tokino. Yeah. Yeah.

Tokino rose. Tokino rose. Yeah, she was, in fact, I'm just gonna go ahead and say it. She was not a spy and she was not a treasonous trader because it was proven so and she was pardoned by Gerald Ford. Right, so she was born, so I'm just going to take her off the list. Okay, we'll finish the story though. Yeah, it's a worthwhile story.

Yeah, I have a Toguri. She was born in America in Los Angeles and had a degree in zoology from UCLA. And in 1941, she traveled to Tokyo to take care of an ailing aunt, her family center over there. Despite the fact that she didn't really speak Japanese, she hadn't been raised in Japanese culture apparently. And there's a lot of culture shock,

but she still went over to take care of her aunt nonetheless. And while she was there, she got two jobs. Once she was typing for one new service, and she got a second job as a typist for one of the radio stations. Yeah, and they're like, hey, you're a Japanese American,

and you have a great voice, and you're perfect for this new thing that we're gonna do, it's American Rock and Roll music, and we're gonna play it for the morale of the troops and well to deteriorate the morale well but she they told her a different story at first though they told her it was to boost the morale

really yeah like I don't think she knew what she was getting into that's crazy well with the Japanese boost the morale of the American troops in the Pacific well it was later said that it did in fact boost the morale they said americans love the music and thought the tokyo's banter was funny and it lifted their spirits that's funny yeah okay so if they were really trying to do that it did a pretty poor job of it okay but nonetheless she was reporting on things like um... ships being sunk

that correct yes she called it well that's what she was eventually the one thing that they pinned on her. Okay, well then that didn't actually happen. Oh really? Yeah. Okay, so let's get back to the story. Where were two goes along?

Yeah. Right, it ends and she tries to get back to America. And as she's doing that, apparently the Japanese government identified her as Tokyo Rose. Yes, she was orphan Anne, was her radio name. And Tokyo Rose was just sort of the name of the operation as a whole. Right. And not a single person, even though they tied her to that name. Which led to some great confusion, apparently.

Yeah. Because they were trying to get her as Tokyo Rose, even though she called herself orphan Anne, and there were like 12 women, including including her that were all Tokyo Rose collectively. Okay. So the Japanese government says, that's Tokyo Rose. And she said, I'm Orphan Ann. The American intelligence services of the army investigated her and could find no evidence that she committed any form of treason.

And they were going to let her in the country back in her their place of birth because she traveled without a passport. Yeah. And now that she's trying to get back in she needed a passport. Apparently a lot of veterans groups are like you can't let Tokyo rose into the the US. Yeah, it was just one guy kind of started the charge and was successful. The reporter had a bondridge. Yeah.

Yeah. and was successful. The reporter had a bondage. Yeah, well apparently he got a couple of Japanese guys to commit perjury and present false evidence against Tokyo Rose. Yeah, the two most damaging witnesses actually like just completely lied. Right. The FBI put him up to it, coached them, and said, you're gonna get tried for a reason

if you don't do this. So she ended up being tried and convicted for a reason, and sentenced to 10 years, and she got out in 1956, and they tried to deport her, and she successfully battled deportation and moved to Chicago. Yeah, she worked at a retail store until 2006. Her father's store. 2006, she was working in a retail store. 2006. Her father's store. 2006, she was working in a retail store.

Yeah. At 90 years old. And nobody even, people didn't like come in there to see Tokyo Rose. Like she was just a worker. Yeah. Isn't that weird? It is.

Like such a prominent figure in history, it just a ringing people up. Yeah. Like you said, Ford Partender. Yeah, Gerald Ford. And then he fell down. Let's talk about the quizzling just briefly. Yeah, the quizzling is, we mentioned earlier,

as another name if you live in perhaps Norway, or maybe other parts of Europe. You might be called a quizzling if you're a trader, because of Vidcon quizzling. Yeah. He was, He basically tried to seize power after buddying up with Hitler in 1940 and said, you know what, I'm gonna use this as an opportunity to make Norway my own.

And he did so for a very, very short time. Yeah, he invited the Nazis to come and invade Norway. They did. He made a power grab and said, I'm now the ruler of Norway and the Nazis let that slide for about a week. They're like, sure, sure, here, ruler. Then they installed their own guy as the head of Norway and demoted, quizzling to minister president. Yeah. And apparently he went to work sentencing Norwegian Jews to concentration camps.

Yeah. Like he, really bad guy. Yeah, he was very much anti-union. He was a fascist. And he was trying to make Norway fascists. And he did so. He became the first person to ever announce a coup d'etat on television.

That's how he made his power grab. Oh, really? Yeah. I think it was television, although it seems early. So maybe it was radio. But I guess he became the first one to announce it over a broad cast. On face-guest, right?

So after the Nazis were defeated, he was like, oh, no. Yeah. I have a feeling this is going to end up bad for me. Yeah. And he was convicted of treason, sentenced to death, and executed by firing squad. And you are a quizzler. I'm sorry, a quizzling.

If you collude. Yeah, if you're a Norway, and you're a traitor, you're a quizzling. Yeah. There's like the Benedict Arnold of Norway. So Chuck, you got anything else? No, and as per usual, this is a top 10 that we do about six of and encourage people to go read the rest, including Robert Hanson, who we've talked about.

Yeah, as we're pounded. As we're pounded. And the Cambridge Five, not the Seattle Seven. Or the Jackson Five. Or the Jackson Five. And did we skip another one was at it uh... i don't remember all the intro we didn't mention uh... the cleveland cavaliers ayer against the bros i just think that's weird well i think that's

berserk that sort of has passed and there's rumors of him going back to cleveland anyway no way really maybe his contracts up and they think that you might love nothing more than to go back there and win a championship. Huh, well we'll see. Yeah we'll see what happens. If you want to learn more about traders you can type that word into the search bar at HouseofWorks.com and it'll bring up this article and since I said search bar it means it's time for listener mail. This is CapGrasse. Hey guys thanks so much for doing the Capgress Syndrome episode.

It was amazing timing. Came out right around Father's Day and my father suffers from the syndrome. It's been very painful to watch. No. Yeah, during my marriage we have never lived very close to my parents, but just under three years ago we moved close enough for day trips. About the same time my dad had a fairly significant stroke and it made the slow progress of vascular dementia Alzheimer's that he also suffers from significantly

worse. I started visiting my dad on a weekly basis. I would spend the day with him while my mom and brother would get the Monday rush orders out, apparently dad ran a mail order business. When I first started these visits, dad knew who I was. We talked and I shared photos and stories of my kids, but within just six months, the cap grass really took effect. We had to work our way through who this strange lady was who lived there now, my mom. And why did Linda, my mom, leave him and watched his absolute fear when she would walk into the room.

He eventually forgot who my brother and I were as well, as well as our spouses and kids, although I had to giggle a little bit during the small amount of time when my husband was the only one of us he knew because Capgress affects those closest to you and then works his way out. So, the husband wasn't around him as much. So one point he was the only person that he recognized and the wife thought that was kind of funny. Now, the dementia and Alzheimer's have progressed to a point of living in the past,

not even remembering moment to moment, let alone day to day. He still doesn't know why his family has abandoned him, even though we're all around him all the time. Man, that's tough. I know. He lives a very fear-filled and lonely life among strangers. I liken it to living in a nightmare every moment of the day. And it sounds really sad, but she was fairly upbeat in the email, like that we corresponded with. Just so, like, people aren't crying and stuff. Thanks for doing the podcast. When I talk about how dad is doing its tough to explain what he's going through,

and now I can just send people to the podcast to learn more about it. So it's really helped. Yeah, that's cool. That is Jill Overturf in Republic, Missouri. Well, thanks a lot, Jill. We appreciate you sharing that Yeah, and I you know, I hope things improve for your father. Yeah, sure If you have a story about something we've talked about Ever we want to hear it especially if we've helped you explain it to other people we like that kind of thing Especially if we've helped you explain it to other people. We like that kind of thing.

You can tweet to us at S.Y.S.K. podcast. You can join us on facebook.com slash stuff you should know. And you can send us an email to stuffpodcast.it.heartradio.com. Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRad Radio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. A group of high school students started a project to research a string of unsolved murders. There is no profile of this killer except for the ones the students created. What if this guy's still alive,

like what if he comes after us? Once you start getting a few tips or a few leads or few identifications, then the co-case isn't so cold anymore. This is Murder 101. Listen to Murder 101 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Discover the heartwarming and hilarious world of sibling connections on sibling revelry

with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson. Dive into family tales, explore the human mind, and laugh with guests like Joel and Ben G. Madden. It's more than a podcast, it's a celebration of the ties that bind us. And it's fun because we've decided to open it up to really like all kinds of different siblings. And it's going to be an awesome season.

Who listened to sibling revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Yo, what's up, it's your buddy, Kid Marrow the Human, Durek, Flatmean, I mean, the Plantein, Supernova, you feel me? The God Himself, your favorite Dominican uncle. And I'm back. The greatest block of all time, Victory Light, is now the greatest podcast of all time.

And I got some friends with me. Victory Light is a foul in. So get your cut ready. Cause it's about the run of over. You can listen to Victory Light on the IHR Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Apple Podcast or whatever you get your podcasting.