Stuff You Should Know - Selects: How Profiling Works

Episode Date: April 24, 2021

At its base, criminal profiling is a legitimate investigatory tool. The Supreme Court has drawn a clear line that bans profiling when it includes race. So why do we still do it? Take a closer look with Josh and Chuck in this classic episode. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help. And a different hot sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life. Tell everybody, yeah, everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never, ever have to say bye, bye, bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Munga Chauticular and it turns out astrology is way more widespread than any of us want to

believe. You can find in Major League Baseball, International Banks, K-pop groups, even the White House. But just when I thought I had a handle on this subject, something completely unbelievable happened to me and my whole view on astrology changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, give me a few minutes because I think your ideas are about to change too. Listen to Skyline Drive on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, it's your bro Josh and for this week's SYSK Selects, I've chosen our episode from July of 2015 on the extraordinarily controversial practice of profiling. You'll find out all the ins and outs of profiling, when it actually works, why it generally doesn't, and why it's so

just utterly offensive in general. Plus, you'll also get to hear Chuck, classic Chuck, after he got back from adopting his daughter and he gets to thank everybody who helped him along the way and it's just very nice and heartwarming, especially considering the episode it's attached to. So at any rate, I hope you enjoy it and take good care. What was that? That is a heraldic announcement. Yes, before we get going, I know people on social media already know this stuff, but I wanted to announce on the podcast that Chuck here has adopted a baby girl. Chuck has a baby, a beautiful baby. Yeah, she is. She's cutie. She was 10 days late, so she came out not looking like one of those little alien creatures. No, she's fully formed. Yes. What's her name, Chuck?

Her name is Ruby Rose Bryant. Man, she's so cute. And she was born on your birthday. Yeah. Isn't that crazy? One of the better days of the year, July 15th. But isn't that remarkable? I think it is remarkable. Out of all the days. Yeah. And I was literally, I was just like, well, let me scroll through the celebrity birthdays just, you know, for giggles to see what, you know, who shares your birthday. Right. About three quarters of the way down and saw your face. That's awesome. And I had forgotten it was your birthday because I was just in another planet. Yeah, I didn't know. And I, I like immediately, I was like, Emily, you got to see this. You'll never guess whose birthday she shares. So I think that's really neat. So anyway, thank you everybody for the support. Stop, stop.

Chuck. Yes. On behalf of every stuck, you should know listener out there. Yes. Congratulations to you and Emily. Do you feel like you can speak for them? Yes, of course. Okay. Yeah. There might be like one guy out there. He's like, I don't care. He can stop listening right now. But I do have some people to thank. This happened in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And we stayed in this little area called East Village. It was literally like a block in this loft and Airbnb loft. And above pizza place and across street from a bar. And Oh, I'll bet you have some people to thank. Yeah, these people like took us in as family. It was like literally every day, you know, for 10 days late. We're out there two days early. So for like two weeks, they were like, what's going on? You know,

where's this baby? So I want to thank Hodges Bend, which you would love to do this cocktail bar. Yeah. Right up your alley. It sounds like it. You said cocktail bar. Yeah. And not only do they make like fresh, you know, fresh ingredients, but they don't have like a thing of cucumber sliced up. They sliced the cucumber as needed. Nice. And you know, the jalapeno, you would have, they were doing it right there. So Jamie and Nate and Nicole and Ian, the chef at Hodges Bend, it was the stuff you should know, man. Oh, yeah. He came out and he was like, is that who I think it is? How fortuitous. How fortuitous. And then East Village, Bohemian pizzeria, we stayed above this place and they were great. Did the smell drive you nuts all the time? No, but we ate a lot

of people. Okay. So Pat there and my boy Max, Max and I really hit it off. We're like genuine life pals now. Nice. And he, at the end, I go to leave and I just give him a letter saying, thank you. And here's my contact info. And then like PS, by the way, I have a podcast. He's an ornithologist. He has his master's. Wow. But he's not doing that right now. You know, he's running this pizza joint and just a really smart guy was like, I think you might like this podcast I do. He comes up and tells me afterward, this is like our parting words. He was like, dude, you're Chuck. It's like, I had a weird like thing. He said, I knew that you seem familiar, but I didn't want to say anything. Like even watch the TV show. Oh, wow. So Max was like,

that's probably why I didn't want to say anything. Yeah. He didn't want to bring it up. So a huge thanks to those guys. And then our caseworker, Jessica, also a stuff you should know. That is amazing because at the end of our first call, like a month ago, she went, all right, we've got business done. I have something I have to admit. I'm a huge fan. And so it was weird. It was like the stuff you should know nation sort of caring for me. Yeah. And all of the people, like you put a picture of Ruby Rose up and like broke the internet. It was people love newborns. Well, yeah, but people love Chuck's newborn. Yeah, but you know, it could have been a puppy and probably gotten the same thing. I don't think so, man. I don't think that was very sweet. Yeah.

So that meant a lot to me. But Jessica and her two sons, Hugh and Henry, I know they are listeners too. They are awesome boys. And she really took care of us. So I'm glad it worked out like this. Three weeks in Tulsa. It was weird and stressful and wonderful. Yeah, good start though. Yeah. I mean, we were in there. Emily helped deliver this baby. And I was in the man's zone right behind me. I am so proud of you guys. Yeah, I'm so happy for you guys. I also want to say Jerry's not allowed to talk. Jerry feels the exact same way. She's well, we could take the duct tape off for today. Maybe Jerry, how do you feel? Yes, she said, yeah, she agrees. She just spelled out on the speaking spell. Call the police. Anyway, this is not going to become the new baby show. She will

probably disappear from your lives, but just know that we're all doing great. And thank you for the support. Okay. All right. Yep. Nice job, Chuck. Thanks, man. Congratulations. Thank you, sir. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant and Jerry, which means it's time for Listener Mail. Oh, wait, that's early. Wow. How about that? My brain just hurt. I said we leave that in there. Do you want to? Yeah, or maybe I should just read Listener Mail. We can go home. Okay. It's a build your own episode. Yeah, it's a mad libs. Just fill it in. I'm profiling. Yeah, styling and profiling. I'm pretty excited. Are you?

Styling and profiling? Well, that's a different thing. Yeah. Okay. I think that has to do with photography. No, I think styling and profiling just means you're... Live in large? Yeah, you're fashionable and hip. Oh, gotcha. Yeah. No, this is different. And this is a Grabster article, which is the mark of quality as we all know. It is. It's refreshing to see and it is, we should just say, right off the bat. Profiling is a super divisive topic. Oh, yeah. There are many ways to look at it and they make sense sometimes on both sides. It's a tough one. Yeah. So that's my caveat. Nice. It's divisive. So one thing that Grabster immediately points out is like, not all profiling is profiling like you think of. Sure. We're going to talk about all the

different ways. Right. There's plenty of accepted forms of profiling. Yeah. And the first one is the standard all points bulletin or be on the lookout. Yeah. That's the kind that no one has a problem with. No one does. Yeah. Because you know what that is. That's a silver Toyota Tacoma was spotted today and a white male in his mid 40s with spiky hair and sort of chubby with a big, gross gray black beard has committed a crime. Right. And he's wearing cargo shorts and flip flops. Oh, I see. You're describing yourself. Profiler. But you put in there white male. Yeah. And the reason that's what I am. The reason why people don't have a problem with this is twofold. One, a crime has already been committed. Yeah. Okay. I committed a crime. So the police work is finding

a perpetrator that has already committed a crime. And secondly, that profile is based on eyewitness accounts, descriptions of the person. That's right. So that profile is being used to track down a specific person. It has nothing to do with anybody else who's white. Right. It has nothing to do with anybody else who drives a silver Tacoma. Yeah. It has nothing to do with any of that jazz. It's just this guy is suspected of having committed this crime. Yeah. And he looks like this. Yeah. You hear, you see it on the news every night. Yes. You know, it's not just cops that use this. The news will say the suspect is, you know, wearing a handsome checkered Oxford button down with wispy hair and white straight teeth. Exactly. So they're describing you.

Oh, you think my teeth are nice? I didn't say that. I said they were white and straight. That's nice. That's what you're into. This is coming from a guy who just found out he's about to have to lose his front tooth all over again. Start over. Yeah, man, that sucks. Which I know there are some fans out there that are laughing. Aaron Cooper. That toothless Chuck is coming back in the house for a few months. It's really just him. Yeah. He's the only one who'd be jerky enough to laugh at that kind of misfortune, you know? I know. I'm sorry to bring that up. I'm just still reeling from that discovery. It stinks. You think you get an implant and it's for life? Yeah, especially when they sell you a lifetime implant. Yeah, exactly. All right. So,

like you said, including descriptions and skin color is not controversial in this case? No. It's in everybody from the feds to the local police are okay with that. Yeah, they're all in on it. And not just the police. Like everybody's like, yeah, this is fine. This makes sense. Sure. Not a thing. That's right. The next one is psychological profiling. Yeah. And this is when you don't have a lot of physical evidence or you don't have an eyewitness and you're trying to fill in the blanks and make some good guesses. Billy blanks. Based on, I remember that guy, some good guesses based on like the crime scene or just the circumstances of the crime. Yes. Again, a crime has already taken place and you're trying to figure out who solved it.

And you're taking. You've solved it. You've committed it. You're trying to figure out who's going to solve it. All right. All right. Precogs. Which you figure out the same moment as you do when you figure out who committed it. It's interesting. It's kind of mind bending, really. It's twice you've jumped to the end of something. It's so weird. I don't know what that means. I think you know what it means. Sometimes they are vague. Oh, wait. I hadn't finished my thought. Oh, okay. I didn't mess it up that bad. Let me go back and finish. All right. The point is, it's drawn from available evidence. Yeah. Clues. Clues. Yeah. That you're bringing together to

try to drum up an idea of who did this. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Okay. So sometimes it can be vague, but if you watch TV and movies, it is probably not how it really goes down, but it's super specific when you see it in fiction. Right. You know, like I think this is a man who was beaten as a child and he probably lives alone. Or Sherlock Holmes was really good at that kind of thing. That's a good point. Love Sherlock Holmes. Yeah. That's good stuff. Did you know he was a morphine and cocaine addict? Oh, really? Yeah. Well, I guess you need both. In like the original stories. Really? Yeah. Oh, like in the books. Wow. Not the real guy. All right. What was I thinking? Yeah. You sure you're not just thinking of Robert Downey Jr.?

Oh, I'm 100% sure. Okay. I mean, I've read the originals. No, it's just kidding. Anyway. Does, he shoots morphine in it. Yeah. And Watson's not very happy with the whole thing. Oh, is he clean? Yeah. Is he straight edge? No, he's not straight edge, but he doesn't, he's not a junkie, you know? Right. But he didn't care. He was like, Watson, wash my toes. So I can inject morphine between them. All right. Moving on to predictive profiling. Well, yeah, this is where it starts to get a little messy. Yeah, it can get a little controversial. Even psychological profiling is a little controversial, I have to say, Chuck. Like, it's not a proven tried and true thing. It's as much a guessing game as anything else.

That's true. But it's not nearly still as controversial as predictive profiling because now you're trying to say these people will probably commit a crime. Right. Not civil rights are at issue. Big time. Big time. Police officers do great work. Ideally, they're not just reacting to committed crimes, but they are driving around the neighborhood, looking for a suspicious person that might be about to commit a crime. To prevent crime. To prevent a crime, which is tough to do, you know? It's right place, right time in most cases. Yeah. And you use the word ideally, right? Ideally. Okay. Yes. So even when this happens, the Supreme Court is roundly

sided with police officers as profiling for justification. So it's legally speaking, okay. It's on the books. It's on the books. So give an example of the kind of profiling that's okay to be used. One of the articles is great. Let's say you're in South Florida and you're traveling up I-95 and you're in a rented black SUV with tinted windows and you have the spare tire in the backseat removed. I'm sorry. It's removed from the trunk area. It's in the backseat. It's just sitting in the backseat. Might be a drug trafficker. Right. And the cop is basing this on something like... A profile. Yeah. But a profile based on previous experiences with other drug dealers in the same area. Yeah. Because that's a really big one right there.

Like one of the things for using profiles successfully is it has to be over a certain period of time and associated with a certain place. So you use Miami. Yeah. And say Miami in 1985. Okay. Right. If you saw that person and you would say, well, this is probably a cocaine trafficker based on all the other dealings with cocaine traffickers who use the same transportation M.O. Yeah. And we should point out the tires removed because you can then hide the drugs where the spare tire went. Right. And then that's why the tires in the backseat. Yes. So these are red flags. Yeah. But if you're like in Wyoming in 2015. Yeah. And you read an article about how that held true in Miami in 1985. That is not necessarily a justifiable

transference of profiling because it exists in a different time in a different place. That's right. So like you said, this can be a... This can be high level policy. It can be unofficial policy. It can be just merely experience as a police officer that something you've encountered from time to time. And basically to determine if this profile justifies a search, a warrantless search that is. In other words, you haven't gone to the judge and as applied for a warrant and had them review it and all that stuff or rubber stamp it, which we'll get to. It's got to stand up in court in the end. So you got to be careful as a cop. You do. You have to have what's called an articulable suspicion. Yes. Which was established by a 1968

case or Supreme Court ruling, Terry versus Ohio. And the Supreme Court said, and this is actually from a Matt T. Abbey article that's really, really worth reading. It's called Why Baltimore Blew Up. It was in Rolling Stone like a month or two ago. It's a very good article. But he talks about this Terry case led to what are called Terry stops. Whereas if a cop has a suspicion that they can put into words, meaning it's not just a hunch that somebody is either just committed a crime or going to commit a crime, that that is probable cause. And it's grounds for a search. Yeah. And here's, Ed had a great example here. Like let's say the cop in court would say this. The suspect appeared nervous, made several contradictory statements. In the back seat,

I saw a shoebox full of old film canisters, which drug couriers commonly use. The car smelled like air freshener spray, which is used to cover up the smell of drugs. And I spotted them driving slowly up and down a block that I know is frequented by drug dealers. Right. That's called good police work in court. Right. That's called like a prosecutor's dream cop. Yeah. And if you go back and you notice all of that stuff, all of these things are based on so a block that he knows to be frequented by drug dealers. Yeah. 35 millimeter canisters. Maybe he read a police benevolent association newsletter article about that. Right. All of this stuff together becomes what's called cumulative similarities. And supposedly a Florida highway

patrolman named Bob Vogel is the first guy to put this down on paper. He was very controversial. Which is you take all of these different things and put them together and you can form a profile and you can use that to pull somebody over. Right. And then eventually search their car if you're a Florida highway patrolman. Right. Yes. So you've got all of these, you have the Terry stops, which are used for broken windows policing and just for pulling people over. But they require an articulable suspicion. Right. But they can be based on what are called cumulative similarities, which is a profile either like that your police department is saying be on the lookout for people driving with their spare tire in the backseat at this time of night.

Yeah. On 995. Right. So far, this has all been upheld by the Supreme Court. That's right. But there is a very, very fine line that is frequently crossed. And we will talk about how that runs afoul of the Constitution right after this. Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. The hardest thing could be knowing who to turn to when questions arise or times get tough or you're at the end of the road. Okay, I see what you're doing. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help this. I promise you. Oh, God. Seriously, I swear. And you won't have

to send an SOS because I'll be there for you. Oh, man. And so my husband, Michael. Um, hey, that's me. Yeah, we know that Michael and a different hot, sexy teen crush boy band are each week to guide you through life step by step. Oh, not another one. Kids relationships, life in general can get messy. You may be thinking, this is the story of my life. Oh, just stop now. If so, tell everybody, yeah, everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen. So we'll never ever have to say bye, bye, bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Mangesh Atikular. And to be honest, I don't believe in astrology. But from the moment I was

born, it's been a part of my life in India. It's like smoking. You might not smoke, but you're going to get secondhand astrology. And lately, I've been wondering if the universe has been trying to tell me to stop running and pay attention, because maybe there is magic in the stars, if you're willing to look for it. So I rounded up some friends and we dove in and let me tell you, it got weird fast. Tantric curses, major league baseball teams, canceled marriages, K-pop. But just when I thought I had to handle on this sweet and curious show about astrology, my whole world came crashing down. Situation doesn't look good. There is risk to father. And my whole view on astrology, it changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer,

I think your ideas are going to change too. Listen to Skyline Drive and the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, Josh, before we took a break, you mentioned something called the Constitution. And there are a couple of amendments that come into play when you're talking about search and seizure, probable cause, profiling. And there are the fourth and 14th amendments. The fourth reads, in whole, the right of the people to be secure in their persons. Is that JFK? Winston Churchill? Sure, it's both. Houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated and no warrant shall issue,

but upon probable cause supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized. Right. So there's some big words in there. That's right. Big, big, like money words, like it's protection against unreasonable searches and seizures, which means, as far as the Supreme Court's concerned, some cop just can't say, I'm going to push you up against the wall and pet you down for no reason whatsoever. Yeah. Or I'm going to pull you over for no reason, and I'm going to search your car on the side of the road. Exactly. For no reason.

Does not happen, right? Of course not. Sure. So that's the fourth amendment, right? Yes. And there's another big term in there. It's called probable cause. Like you have to have, and a lot of people say that that 1968 Terry versus Ohio ruling is just too broad and articulable suspicion, like what is that? But even still, there has to be some sort of probable cause, and a lot of the times, as we'll see, it's just from something out on plain sight or something like that. But there's a big struggle over what constitutes probable cause, but the point is,

the fourth amendment says, you have to have probable cause or else it's an unreasonable search. That's right. And a police officer in most cases has to go get a warrant for like the search of a home or something. And there's a whole issue of rubber stamping warrants these days, of course, that like the judge may not even really review that it's just a formality. Right. Or for anybody who's watched enough law and order episodes, all you have to do is go, I smell pot. Do you smell pot, wink, wink, and then kick the door in? Yeah. Exactly. Because that's, you can't prove that the cop didn't think he smelled pot. Exactly. Now, there's the threat of perjury, of perjuring himself on the stand, but I imagine,

at least as far as like briscoe and green are concerned, they're hoping that they're going to find such gangbuster overwhelming evidence that everybody's going to forget about the fake smell of pot. Right. So there was actually a case which relates to probable cause called the USV SOCOLO that made it all the way to the SCOTUS. Did you read about that case? I did. It was in 1989. Well, that was when the ruling was, right? Yeah. So what happened was the DEA arrested a guy at the Honolulu Airport found over a thousand grams of cocaine in his carry-on. It was a key. He had a key low. And he paid, the agents knew all this going into it. This is why they arrested him. He paid

$2,100 bucks for round trip tickets with a roll of $20 bills. He traveled under a name that did not match the name under which his telephone was listed. He was originally going to Miami. And this was 1980? Yeah. The road flag at the time. He only stayed in Miami for two days, even though a round trip flight from Honolulu takes 20 hours. So very quick trip. In other words, he was almost flying as long as he was there. All right. In Miami, he met up with a man named Tony Montana. Apparently, he appeared nervous and he did not check his baggage. And the district court denied motion to suppress the evidence, said it was justifiable. The court of appeals disagreed and overturned that. And then eventually it went to the Supreme Court and they said,

now it's okay because they had what was quote, a totality of evidence. So here's the thing though. The thing that makes that so groundbreaking. And nowadays, I mean, we were raised under so close, right? It seems like this is just the norm. But it was a groundbreaking case of the time because nothing, none of that. It's not against the law to pay your plane ticket with cash. It's not against the law to not check your bags. At the time, it wasn't against the law to travel under an assumed name. Yeah. And I don't think at the time it was against the law to go to Miami just for two days. Right. Exactly. None of this is against the law. And so if you just followed the strict interpretation of law up to that point, they couldn't bust this guy. Even though when

they busted him, they found a kilo of coke like they knew they would in his bag, there wasn't enough there. And the Supreme Court said, you know what? We think that when you put all that stuff together, there is enough there. Yeah. Now, what constitutes that totality? Is it two pieces of evidence? Is it one thing? Sure. You know, how much does it take to profile? But what they were saying in Sokolo was, yes, the stuff that you've seen from other proven criminals applied to somebody else who you don't yet fully know as a criminal is enough for you to bust them. Right. And see if you're right. Yeah. Again, it's not like kind of groundbreaking. He didn't go straight to jail. They looked in his bag. Yes. But do you have the right to look in the bag is what it comes down to.

Yeah. And they were saying that the Supreme Court's interpretation is this stands up to the Fourth Amendment. Yeah. And I imagine the guy went to Miami for two days. Right. So kiss your civil rights. Goodbye. So with the 14th Amendment, it states in part that no state shall make or enforce any law which will abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the U.S. I think everybody wants the Kennedy voice again, Chuck. Okay. I think anytime you read amendments from the Bill of Rights, you have to do it like that. Nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law, nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction, equal protection of the laws. Yeah. So this one implies you might say, well, we've got the fourth.

We don't need the 14th. The 14th says, look, man, you can't just bust somebody without this, again, due process of law. And we have a due process of law. And what the Supreme Court did with cases like Sokolow and with cases like Terry versus Ohio is they said profiling is part of the due process of law. That's right. So one thing that they have gone back to again and again and again and again is that if race is factored in an almost any circumstances, there are circumstances that is where racial profiling is allowed in police work. But for the most part, if you're basing your suspicions of criminal wrongdoing on race largely or in part, then that is not, that runs afoul of the fourth and the 14th amendments and you're not allowed to

do that. Yeah. The Grabster points out that cops, unless you are having an APB out on a Hispanic male or a black male, then you're supposed to be colorblind as a cop. Exactly. You're supposed to be. So the Eric Garner case, the Michael Brown case, all of these cases where black males were basically stopped from either doing a petty offense or just stopped based on suspicion because they were black in their neighborhood, it prompted the executive branch to release a new set of guidance, like an updated set of guidelines for racial profiling. And they were, they basically spelled out examples. I posted to it on the podcast page for this episode, but they spelled out examples for when it's appropriate. And they said, if it's an all

points bulletin for any police, yes. If you're patrolling and looking for criminals and you're basing it on race, absolutely not allowed. But they said, they gave an example where like, if for example, you are looking for somebody who carried out a hit on a gang leader and you know there's this rival gang and this rival gang is probably the ones who carried out this hit. And every member of this rival gang is Hispanic, that you could use that as part of the profile and searching for your suspect. It just makes sense in that case. You don't look for the little white lady. Right, exactly. Because it's that specific. But you wouldn't cast a dragnet over all Hispanics. It would be Hispanic men related to this gang. You see what I'm saying?

I think the lesson here is get the little white lady to do the hit. It's been done before. And you're golden. It has been done before, which is one of the problems with racial profiling is it's distracting. Yeah, we'll get to that, but that's definitely true. And you know, when you watch cops, it's not always like sometimes that I will see on the TV show, they will pull over, they'll stop a white kid like suburban white kid that's in a bad neighborhood because they'll be like, well, he's, he doesn't belong here. He's probably buying drugs. Right. Because this is a street where people buy drugs. There's a crack house down there. And this guy is from the county, you know,

the white suburban county out in the suburbs. Yeah, let's pull him over. That's racial profile. That's the same thing, but different. Right. Well, it's the same thing. Yeah, but you know what I mean. Yeah. All right, so let's talk about probable cause analysis. This is good. During a traffic stop, there's several things a cop can do and each one requires different kinds of cause in order for it to be legal. Yeah, again, they aren't supposed to just pull you over for no reason. They're not supposed to. You're supposed to fit some sort of, either you broke a traffic law or you fit a profile that has been agreed upon is okay. Yeah, but a cop to pull over for. And

again, we're not knocking police officers hard work and mostly they do great work, but a cop can pull someone over for anything and say like, when you made that turn, you swung a little too wide or you hit that yellow line and so I'm suspicious that you're drunk. You can almost invent a reason to pull someone over under any circumstances. Right. So let's just start with that. When you pull over a car, supposedly to pull someone over legally, you need to have witnessed a violation or you can run the plates and see if their car is stolen or if there's a warrant out for the owner. That's a big thing you see on cops all the time. Yeah. And the cop can make a stop as long as they can describe specific factors that fit the profile. Car full of black kids, not okay to just pull

that car over. Not for that reason. Right. But if they say like I saw smoke coming out the windows, they were driving erratically and it smelled like pot smoke from the road, then that is a reason. Right. Number two, when you go to question the suspect, that's moving things up a notch. You don't have to get a ticket when you get pulled over. You might just get questioned if you seem suspicious and they can, you know, they'll shine that light in the car and they'll look at everything that they can see without actually searching the car. Yeah. And that's well within their right. What's called plain view. Exactly. So if you have like a bag of pot sitting out on the front seat with you and the cop sees it, that just open your entire car

and your person up to a search. Yes. And you, that means you are super high. Because now there's probable cause. But if you have long hair and you have an open half gallon of ice cream next to you, still not enough, might raise his suspicions, but that still should not be enough to give him probable cause to search your car. Well, I got profiled in Texas. Me and my best friend Brett many years ago after college did a big out west trip for two months and the cop said he didn't, he said he pulled us over because I didn't have my seat belt on. Why he really pulled us over is cause we were two scruffy looking guys with tattoos and beards and a Volkswagen van. And he searched the van. He asked if he could and we said he could. And he searched the van

for like an hour on the side of the road. Long story short, Chuck did five years. Five hard ones. No, we didn't get caught with anything and we got away and he basically was mad at us that he wasted his time. And the last thing he said was get out of Texas. So. And I said, I'm trying to sir. But the point is that that cop asked you if he could search your car, right? He did. And that, if you give consent, then you are waving your fourth amendment rights, but you don't have to give consent. Not many people know this. And there's some states that make the cop tell you you are allowed to refuse a search of your car. But not all states do. I've never heard it either. Instead the cop just says,

can I search your car in the most intimidating voice possible? And most people will just fold like a house of cards because they're scared of the cop or whatever. Even if they do have something in there, they're not going to be like, nope, you're not allowed to search the car. So the point where the cop asks if he can search the car is usually in the absence of something that nothing in plain sight, but also that cop suspicious suspicions are raised. Yeah. But he just can't quite prove it. So he'll ask you if he can search your car. If you say no, the cop can say, well, I'm going to detain you temporarily. Yeah. Basically, I can go, I will wait it out. I can get a warrant. I'm going to search that car.

Right. Okay. If he wants to get a warrant, that's different. Like what he's doing now is trying to do everything he can to search your car without having to go to the trouble of getting a warrant, without probable cause, like seeing a bag of pot in the front seat. Uh-huh. Right. Time was that they could detain you for up to like 90 minutes while they called the canine unit out. And the canine unit has been shown to, if the canine unit sniffs around your car, that's not an unreasonable search. And if the canine smells something or indicates that there are drugs present, then that does provide probable cause for a full search under the fourth amendment, right? Yeah. They changed that. Oh, really? Yeah. In April, this past April,

the Supreme Court had a decision that said, no, you really can't make people wait around while the drug dog comes out. They're like, we're not opposed to that. But the point of a traffic stop is to promote and encourage traffic safety, not to cast a drug, a drag net for drug couriers. And you, you cannot detain people without a reasonable suspicion to wait for the drug dog to come out. If they tell you you can't, they, you're not allowed to search their car. That's good. I wonder if it had anything to do with, if you look up online, there are ways that cops can make a drug dog signal, basically by how they're handling the dog. Oh, I would guess so. And there's a lot of suspicion and they'll play them side by side. Like you see this cop's doing

it right. And if you see this cop watch this little thing he does, then the dog barks. And basically there was a lot of speculation that bad cops would use that tail. Well, not that, but yeah, essentially making the dog signal a false alert just to give them reason. Well, the dog barked. So now I can, I can search your car. Yeah. Or, and maybe it all started because I meant to bring this up a second ago. Suspicion can be, they seem nervous. Right. You're like, everyone's nervous when a cop pulls them over. Sure. Even if you haven't done anything, it's just nerve-wracking. It's like white coat blood pressure. Like a lot of people's blood pressure is high at the doctor because they're nervous about, you know, being at the doctor.

There's someone standing at my window with a gun. Right. Like it's nerve-wracking. Yeah. So the Supreme Court said, no, you guys, you have to have a reasonable suspicion to detain somebody on the side of the road that they've committed another crime. It can't just be, I'm pulling you over, you have to wait for 90 minutes while the drug dog comes out so I can bust you or try to bust you or whatever. That was a big deal that they came up with that. Yeah. We didn't, in Texas, we didn't have the drug dog come out, but we were, I felt like we were on the side of the road for an hour while he dug through that entire van. Yeah. Just, you could tell he was, he really wanted to find something. Yeah.

Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast, Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. The hardest thing can be knowing who to turn to when questions arise or times get tough or you're at the end of the road. Okay. I see what you're doing. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help. This, I promise you. Oh God. Seriously. I swear. And you won't have to send an SOS because I'll be there for you. Oh man. And so my husband, Michael. Um, hey, that's me. Yep. We know that Michael and a different hot, sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life step by step. Oh, not another one. Kids, relationships, life in

general can get messy. You may be thinking, this is the story of my life. Just stop now. If so, tell everybody, yeah, everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never, ever have to say bye, bye, bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Mangesh Atikular and to be honest, I don't believe in astrology, but from the moment I was born, it's been a part of my life. In India, it's like smoking. You might not smoke, but you're going to get secondhand astrology. And lately, I've been wondering if the universe has been trying to tell me to stop running and pay attention, because maybe there is magic in the stars if you're willing to look for it. So I rounded

up some friends and we dove in and let me tell you, it got weird fast. Tantric curses, major league baseball teams, canceled marriages, K-pop. But just when I thought I had a handle on this sweet and curious show about astrology, my whole world came crashing down. Situation doesn't look good. There is risk to father. And my whole view on astrology, it changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, I think your ideas are going to change too. Listen to Skyline Drive and the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right. Let's open the can of worms, my friend. Racial profiling. It's a big deal in this country. It's a problem. And let's talk about it. I think that's good. So that is basically,

it's a form of predictive profiling, where one of, if not the only factor is skin color. Let's say that Mexican people are way more prone to sell meth. So let's go hang out at that Hispanic neighborhood. There's a couple of things wrong with that. And that is racial profiling. Some people actually defend it, saying, well, if you look at prison statistics, Hispanics are far more likely to be imprisoned for drug crimes than, say, white people. So that makes sense, right? Okay. The other side of the coin is that you can use those same statistics to point to the idea that Hispanics and blacks are disproportionately targeted for drug busts than other people. And so this is, and Ed points out, this is one of the problems with this debate,

is both sides use the same statistics differently to prove their point. Yeah. Another thing he points out is that people that say, some people say that it is institutionalized racism and it's harassment of a minority. Straight up. People who defend against it say cops harass criminals. And if those criminals happen to be minorities, TS, that's not our fault. That's just the reality of the world we live in. Even further, there's people who say, yes, racial profiling is a thing and it's an effective tool of law enforcement. Sorry, you're welcome to reality. Exactly. Those people usually have their arguments demolished pretty quickly, including by professionals. I read this interview,

or well, an article about the former chief of police of Palo Alto around San Francisco area. And he also grew up as an Oakland cop. And he was talking about that kind of racial profiling that you were, where they would just sit out in high crime neighborhoods and pull over anybody white. And they were doing like that for the same reasons. And he was saying it almost never worked. He said that they also would have long drag nets on stretches of highway. And they would target Hispanic people and low riders. And he said, almost never worked. And he said that it's ineffective. It's also lazy policing, because he said the better alternative is to forget who's what color, but just watch for somebody leaning in a car that's just pulled

over onto the curb or somebody making furtive movement. Look for an actual crime. Right. Look for behavior that is actually linked to crime. There's a white person in a black high crime neighborhood. So therefore they're buying drugs. Or even worse than that, there's a black person who lives in a high crime neighborhood. They must be a drug dealer. Let me go stop and frisk them. That is just lazy policing. It's shorthand policing. Whereas if you look for actual criminal behaviors, you're going to be far more successful in busting the bad guys. But even worse than it being like lazy policing and ineffective in a lot of ways, this guy pointed out like, and I've seen this in many different places. If you want to encourage

mistrust and animosity toward the police, scoop up every member in the community and take them to jail just on the off chance that you might find something that sticks. If you want to set a town off or any population off, do that for a few years and see what happens. And that's what we've been seeing time and time again. It's systematic. Yes. It's systematic targeting and then a systematic reaction to that target. Yeah, absolutely. And I've mentioned cops a lot if you're out there saying, well, yeah, but on cops, every time they pull over that shady black guy in the neighborhood,

he has something on him and gets arrested or that white kid in the bad neighborhood, he's there to buy drugs. It's a TV show that's edited. They don't show you the 25 stops where there is no crime because it would not be a fun TV show. Exactly. All right. So I think people use that as like dummies, use that as proof sometimes. Like watch cops, man, every single time, right? Yeah, exactly. All meth users are scrawny and white. So if you see a scrawny white guy, meth user, that's right, or marathon runner, right? So obviously there can be rogue cops, racist cops that are doing their thing on a singular level or with their partner, but it becomes a real, real problem. That's a problem. It becomes a super real problem when it is

part of the system in which was the case with the New Jersey state troopers in the late 90s. They did a 10-year study and found out that 80% of all traffic stops were minorities over a 10-year period, 80%. And they found that there was a, quote, macho elitist culture within the state trooper ranks, end quote. And basically, even though they officially said racial profiling isn't right, there was a system in place where veterans would really coach and teach the younger cops like this is how we're doing it. Yeah. And they were basically outed. The authorities assigned federal monitors to those troopers. And evidently by 2006, they had a report suggested they had eliminated that profiling completely, which is good if that's the case. Yeah. And I'm sure it is.

New Jersey state troopers are intimidating. You ever seen those guys? No. They're the ones that look like the military uniforms. Which is a whole other issue altogether. Well, I mean, not like M16s, but they just had on. I know what you're talking about. Sure. Like the dress blues and the, yeah. Boots and all that. Yeah. It turns out, Chuck, 22 states have launched that ban racial profiling of motorists, which is great until you think that that also means that 28 states don't. Yeah. It's kind of weird if you ask me. And I found a study also from Illinois that found that in Illinois, black and Hispanic drivers were two times likelier to be stopped and searched. Yeah. But white drivers were two times likelier to have

contraband on them. That weird? Not only weird, it's startling how like it's not effective. Like they're, it's not leading to stopping crime. Yeah. Which is sort of the point. Well, and then another very controversial bout of racial profiling that this country went through came after September 11th. Of course. And in the aftermath of that, you would remember every, every month or two, you'd hear about someone who sometimes seeks, who aren't even Arab. Yeah. Would get kicked off of like a plane or something like that because they made the pilot nervous just being there. By being around. Yeah. Or TSA would, would like pat down disproportionately more Arab people than white people. And now supposedly they base it on your behavior rather

than your race. So they're not racial profiling any longer, supposedly. And it is, I have to say, I haven't heard of one of those cases in a while, but it seemed like for a while, we were hearing about it all the time. Yeah. I think there was a heightened sense of everything back then, of course, right after 9-11. Yeah. But so this guy who used to manage the Bangurian airport in Israel, Rafael Ron, he pointed out that that was the exact opposite of what you want to do. Yeah. He said the worst attack in the history of this airport was carried out by Japanese in the early 70s. And he said, if we're focusing on an ethnic group, then we're, we're potentially missing someone that's about to do something bad. Right. Which is exactly what

happened in 1972 at that airport. Three members of the Japanese Red Army walked in with machine guns and violin cases and just opened them up and started opening fire on the crowd and killed, I think, 26 people. And they were hired by the PLO. PLO knew that they could never walk into the Israeli airport, but Japanese people would unnoticed. And so this guy's saying the same thing. Like if you're really on the lookout for your enemy, like, again, watch for behavior. Right. Like do actual police work. Don't just use this lazy shorthand stuff because it's gonna, it's going to tick off this entire population and it's going to cause in you to miss the real crime. Well, yeah, you've got like, it sounds like a movie. The cops are at the airport and they

detain this, this Arab guy who's like late for a business meeting. And then in the same shot, the white dude who is a Timothy McVeigh just walks right behind him with the bomb on his body. You realize you just described the subplot to airplane two? Did I? Yeah. Remember Sunny Bono had the bomb? Oh, yeah. He's a little mild mannered Weasley dude. Yeah, that's right. And I think he walks through while they're jacking up some like, I think PLO dudes. Maybe that was subconscious. Wow. So that's a profiling. Tip of the iceberg, I would call that. Oh, sure. There's, we could do a series of shows on this, I'm sure. And if you want to know more about profiling in the meantime, type that word into the search bar of your favorite search engine. And I'm sure it will

bring up all manner of terrible stuff. You can also type it in the search bar at howstuffworks.com and it'll bring up this article by the Grabster. And since I said Grabster, it's time for listener mail. I'm going to call this Weefus, which is short for water enema from a water slide, or from a slide. And this is from Tiffany, last name withheld. She says, as a kid, I remember being a chubby 11 year old girl excited for her first trip to Disney World in the water park, then known as Typhoon Lagoon, had a brand new neon green with black polka dot bathing suit, was all excited, and to go down the Cowabunga, a 214 foot tall water slide on a steep 60 degree angle. They tell you to keep your ankles crossed, but as a little chubby 11 year old girl,

my brain comprehended, but my little legs did not have the strength for all 214 feet. I think you see where this is headed. After plumbing in the bottom, I immediately knew something was not right. I clenched my thighs as tightly as I could, pulling out the massive water slide wedgie. Not two steps from exiting the slide though, a different type of waterfall began to trickle down my legs. No matter how tightly I clenched, I couldn't stop it. I waddled up to a gorgeous Australian teenager employee and explained I need a restroom right away. With a smug smile, he pointed all the way to the other side of the lagoon, which was a long walk. Just as I entered the bathroom with all the force of the water that had entered my body,

it exited and I single-handedly shut down a small portion of Disney that day. As embarrassing as this was, I was more upset that my new bathing suit was ruined. My parents were furious because they had to sell out $50 for a new one, pronto. I hope I didn't gross you out too bad. Oh, you did. I think of it as a cautionary lesson for your listeners. Thanks for all your hard work. I hope to see you guys sometime in Detroit. And hey, October, Tiffany, last name with held. We're just going to call you Tiffany Poopy Pants. We're coming to Detroit in October. Yes, ostensibly. And also, we want to say Detroit in advance of us coming. We're sorry for all the jokes we made about you. No, it'll all come home to roost. See you in October. If you want to

tell us a gross story that happened when you were a kid, don't. Just tell us something else and tweet to us at syskpodcast. Join us on facebook.com slash stuff you should know. Send us an email to stuffpodcast.howstuffworks.com and join us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts on my heart radio, visit the iHeart Radio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast, Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help. And a different hot, sexy teen

crush boy bander each week to guide you through life. Tell everybody, everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never, ever have to say bye, bye, bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Munga Chauticular and it turns out astrology is way more widespread than any of us want to believe. You can find it in Major League Baseball, international banks, K-pop groups, even the White House. But just when I thought I had a handle on this subject, something completely unbelievable happened to me and my whole view on astrology changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, give me a few minutes because I think your ideas are about to change too. Listen to Skyline Drive

on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.