Stuff You Should Know - The Amazing Life of Christine Granville

Episode Date: September 26, 2023

Christine Granville was about as James Bond as it gets. Stories of her life as a spy during World War II are legendary. Today we'll tell her story. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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podcasts. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, I'm Welcome to the Podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. And this is Stuff You Should Know. Up, Jerry left. She was here, I think, just long enough for the interest of that count. So, it's just a chance to win. Sure. How are you doing? I'm great. I'm kind of excited about this one,

because this is one that, that, out. You got an intro? Yeah. You ready? Yeah, let's hear it. Chuck. Yes. Have you ever heard of World War II?

Oh, I missed those. Well sure the big one. Okay the granddaddy of them all the big game. No wait that's a suitable. I don't think they call it the big game. Well it turns out Chuck that in World War II arguably one of the greatest spies, an amateur no less, came out of Poland and was a woman. That's right. Can you believe that? I can.

But that's the whole premise of this. Well, that's not the whole premise of it, but that's a premise of a lot of stuff. Like get a load of this lady, what she did, and then when you add it all up, you're like, oh my goodness, she really was possibly the greatest spy. And her biographer named Claire Mollie put it. She wrote a book called The Spy Who Loved. There's a colon in there somewhere. I think it's The Spy colon who loved me. No, no. But in her book The Spy Who Loved, she describes this woman who will call Christine Grandville for now, more bond, less bond girl. And I was like, you go girl.

Oh, that's a good descriptor. Yeah, I thought so too. And appropriate. This is one of those where, you know, I'm always harping about, oh, there should be a movie. This should be, and it sounds like it is going to be a movie. And we'll get to that at the end, but I do wanna give a shout out, we've been taking or at least I have. I think you have two more and more suggestions from listeners.

Mm. I found as the well, seemingly it runs drier that it's nice to get these ideas from people. Mm. The good ones, right? Yeah. We get plenty of good ideas a lot. Like every day we get a few good ideas, I would say.

Yeah, I would say so. I keep a list of good ideas, and I very kindly say thank you to the people whose ideas aren't great. They're good ideas, but just maybe not for the show. You know what I'm saying? Do you tell them that? No, no, no. I tell everybody, thank you for the great idea.

But I, well, I guess that would be outing myself if I say what I told the people his ideas I really like. So I'm just going to keep that to myself. But this one came from Jen Spada in Seattle and basically said, yeah, this is Christine Grantwells is close to our real life James Bond as you can get. Yep. And I'll go on to say this is another way of precursoring this episode. Jen says she was a spy for the British and World War II. Okay. And her stories are so insane, they're almost unbelievable. Yeah. But her story is not very well known. Right.

So Jen, this one's for you. Yeah. And it's for everybody who's everyone to learn more about woman spies and World War II. Totally. Christine Granville was kind of an awesome BA. Yeah, she really was. Her Christine Granville was just a cover name. That's what she's fairly well known as best because she kept that after the war because she was so proud of what she'd accomplished with that name. But she was born in Poland to an aristocratic father and a wealthy mother from a Jewish banking family.

The father was not wealthy. He just had, he was aristocratic. So you put the two together and you have a suddenly very powerful family. Her birthday was Christina Scarbeck, which is a, I mean, Christine Granville, you can see Christina to Christine. The grandma throws me off a little bit from Scarbeck, but I guess that's the point of a new identity. You don't exactly want to be like, well, this sounds a lot like Christina Scarbeck. Is that who you are? Yeah. In different spellings, the Americanized, I guess, Christina with a CH, well, literally like Christian.

And then the Polish version was K-R-Y-S-T-Y-N-A. And if I may just read her full name, because it's pretty great. Her full given name was Maria Christina Janina Scarbeck. And I have to say her dad's name, because there are two men in this story with this first name and I've never heard of it. His name was Jersey, J-E-R-Z-Y. So I've looked it up and in Polish it's like Yert-Z? Yert-Z, okay, I have figured. And it's the Polish version of George. Oh, okay, so no wonder it sounds a

little more common than I would think. But it is a pretty, pretty great name in the spelling and the fact that there's two year Z's in her life, very prominent ones. I think that's astounding too. That you go from zero to two overnight, basically. That's right. Her mom was a goldfelder of the Jewish banking goldfelder family, and that's where they got their money. But when Christine was growing up, she was very privileged, but then eventually after World War I,

the goldfelder bank tanked in the depression that followed, and her dad left the family, died when she, when Christina was in her early 20s, and she ends up not having a lot of money, living in an apartment in Warsaw with her brother and her mother. when Christina was in her early 20s. And she ends up not having a lot of money living in an apartment in Warsaw with her brother and her mother. Yes. Yeah, her dad just abandoned the family

when the money ran out. It's pretty awful. Yeah, what a jersey. She, right. She ended up kind of living the high life as best she could. She'd like to go out on the town. She was a runner-up for Miss Poland Beauty Contest. I saw that she used to hang out at a very chic ski resort, and while

there, this is a great example of how she could straddle multiple worlds. The people that she was there with were all very wealthy, trucky, fun kids like aristocratic kids. But while she was at the ski resort, she also connected with the criminals there and learned the smuggling routes and would go into the foreign, like neighboring countries to buy cheaper cigarettes and bring them back and sell them more expensively in Poland. That's a great example. And this, this is what she was doing in her early 20s. Yeah. I mean, she sounds like a few things, a real firecracker. Yeah. Someone who was eager for adventure and not one to just sort of go the expected route of

a young woman at the time in any way. And the reason we mentioned this next part is because it's very sort of prevalent thing for the story as she was very attractive and very charming and used her looks and her charm in her life as a spy to great effect and also ended up as a result having many, many affairs which was not the kind of thing that a woman of repute was to do back then. Right. She didn't care about the kind of thing that, you know, a woman of repute was to do back then. Right. She didn't care about that kind of thing. She did not.

She was James bonding her way around Europe in a way. Yeah. I saw that she was described as having a near pathological enjoyment of dangerous situations. Yeah. Like she was fearless, not only that, she seemed to be attracted to fear. So she married a couple of times, her second husband, Yertzi Gizeki, I'm pretty sure that's how it's pronounced.

He was a diplomat for Poland in Ethiopia, and while they were moving to Ethiopia, or they had already moved and they were traveling around South Africa, Germany invaded Poland. And one of the things you have to know about Christina Scarback is she was incredibly patriotic. Like she was not happy about Germany invading Poland at all. But she actually did something about it. She figured out how to get a meeting with the secret intelligence services, George Taylor, which became MI6, the spies in Britain.

She got a meeting with him and said, hey, I want to spy for you guys and work with the Polish resistance. Let's make this happen. Yeah, and that's not the way things usually went. Usually you didn't go knocking on the door of MI6. First of all, you probably don't know where that door is. Usually didn't go knocking on the door of MI6. First of all, you probably don't know where that door is. But if you happen to find out where that door is, you don't go knocking on it and ask for a job. You are generally found and recruited and asked to

become a part of it. I have a feeling this George Taylor guy was, he was an Australian business man, turned to Sabotour. I think maybe because he was a civilian who got involved, he might have had maybe a soft spot for this person who, and again, attractive and charming that certainly didn't hurt. But maybe he had a soft spot for her like being so eager to sign up as a civilian and would eventually he would eventually run what was known as the S. O. E. the special operations executive which were civilians. They were volunteer civilians that were saboteurs that they except for sounds like Christine Granville would recruit to work for them and do sneaky spy missions during World War II.

Yeah, including sabotage and stuff. I saw one example of what they did was. It's what a sabotage where it does. The second Panzer Division were a real problem in Europe for the Allies. And one of the missions that SOE carried out was to remove the axle grease from the trains that were transporting the Panzer Division and their tanks and replace it with some sort of corrosive abrasive oil. So just completely wreck the trains and set them back for days, not weeks. They did stuff like that. And again, these are just ordinary people from ordinary life who wanted to do something. And the fact that they were ordinary people and could blend in made them intensely valuable to carry out sabotage missions behind enemy lines.

Yeah, absolutely. So she goes to Taylor. She's like, I have an idea. First of all, I want a job. And not only do I want a job, but I've got an idea for that job already of how I can just hit the ground running. I want to go to Hungary,

which at the time was a neutral in World War II. And I can produce propaganda there. I'm an excellent snow skier. So I can then ski across the torture of mountain range, get into Poland, set up communications there with you guys. And I can get ski across the torture mountain range, get into Poland, set up communications there with you guys, and I can get a whole network. I've got people that will, you know, from the Polish resistance that will help me along, and I can do this over and over to your heart's content.

And this Australian guy said, well, it's going to do an Australian accent, but I decided not to it the last minute. I don't know why it froze up. He said, sure, lady. That was a different choice. Yeah, so he said, you're up. He said, welcome aboard. How about you do your Murray impression of him hiring her? Everybody loves that. Yeah, he's New Zealander, I think, isn't he? Yeah, he is, but even in Australia, they think it's awesome.

Oh, okay. He said, prison. So he hires her, but you can't, you know, at the time be like a SOE agent overtly. You have to have some sort of cover. And so she was officially hired as a first aid nursing Yalmanry Fanny person, which had been around for a while, and it was usually made up of wealthy women

who donated their own time, money, clothes, expenses, paid their own expenses to basically volunteer for World War I. That was carried over, and it made a lot of sense because it also meant that those women were typically left alone. Not only were they women, they were women volunteers, and they were wealthy women volunteers. So you just didn't mess with

them that much. So it was a really great cover for a woman who was a SOE operative. Yeah. She was also commissioned as a flight officer for the British Women's Auxiliary Air Force, again, just another cover job. But they let her do that first plan. They were like not only can you come aboard, but we think that sounds pretty good to us. She was successful. She got a Olympic skier, a Polish Olympic skier, and a mountain near name Jan Marasarts to help her along across the border. They skied across this 2,000 meter set of alps, and apparently as the story goes, and we should say some of the stuff is completely verified

and some of the stuff are stories that were told that maybe lathered up a little bit. Apparently she was known to sort of lather up her own stories, but there's still great stories. But as the story goes, they ski by dead bodies of like frozen people to get into allied territory. Yeah, that seems pretty believable to me that people were trying to escape Poland and just froze the death on the way to Hungary. Makes for a good movie, Psyne.

Sure. Yeah, they're really kind of soaks in just what the stakes are what's at stake for their mission Do you know what I mean? Yeah, and also I will say if the makers of this movie are listening cast Josh and I as frozen dead people That'd be great. How about what an Easter egg that would be it would be wonderful. I'd be sitting there trying not to smile frozen You want to take a break real quick? They could be like look at him. He seemed happy when he's passed. They say it's a good way to go. Yeah, let's take a break

and I'm gonna work in my frozen dead body. We'll be right back. This is In Retrospect, a podcast about pop culture from the 80s and 90s that shaped us. I'm very much a product of the pop culture I consumed, and I don't think that's a bad thing. I'm Jessica Bennett, a New York Times writer and bestselling author. I'm Susie Bette-Kerrem, an award-winning TV producer and filmmaker. Every week, we'll revisit a moment in cultural history that we just can't stop thinking about. From tabloid headlines to illicit student-teacher relationships, and one, very memorable Red Swimsuits. I found myself in Pamela Anderson's attic, as you do.

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Bring back the nest. bring back the nest. All this and more on the new season of the Last Archive, listen to the Last Archive on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Chuck, you were saying that the myths around Christine Granville are questionable, but it's probably one of those things that there's some sort of kernel of truth to them. Sure. Yeah, yeah. But one of the other things that makes her so compelling is that some of them, it's tough to distinguish the myth from the actual stories because ones that are

documented are just as mind-blowing as the ones that are like, is that true? And then in a lot of cases, the story is true, but say whoever the bad guy is in that story might be mixed up. And there may be, they're not quite as scary as the bad guy that got inserted into the story later on, but the story's still true. And that was confusing, but later on, everybody all point out the example I'm talking about. Okay.

Is that the one we're about to talk about? No, it's a different one. The one we're about to talk about, I say is the one where she was on a train smuggling documents. Yeah, so this is during that same sort of mission that she had originally proposed. She ended up doing that like, I don't know, six or eight times, so it wasn't just a one-off. She was just skiing back and forth all the time, past Josh and Chuck, you know, didn't care about us. But at one point there was a train headed to Warsaw that she boarded. She saw that there were arm guards asking for papers and possessions, going through people's stuff.

And so she turns on that charm and bats her eyes at a Gestapo officer and was like, here, would you mind holding this package? I shouldn't have it. It's black market tea. I'm trying to bring it to my mother who really loves this stuff, but I don't wanna get caught. And so he's like, sure for all, I'll hold that for you. But of course, in that box were illegal documents that this guy was unknowingly hiding from his Gestapo counterparts.

Yeah, I mean, like keep that surely would have cost her her life had he opened the box. But she was capable of charming even Gestapo agents. And that was part of it too. It wasn't just the same type of charm for every person that was like a catch all type of charm. She was also emotionally intelligent enough to be able to read individual people or even whole groups of people to figure out what they wanted to hear, what would charm them the most. So she could be very rigid and commanding. She could also be flirtatious and helpless, like whatever it called for. She just could recognize

what the best course of action was, and it worked more often than not for her. Yeah, she was really good at what she did. Eventually she would get married. Yeah, she was really good at what she did eventually she would get married Well, she met a guy name on how would you pronounce that it's Andre? Oh, it is Andre Koworski Mm-hmm boy, I tell you what Polish people have so many extra letters. I just celebrate that so much I have Polish friends and it's always amazing to me to look at the amount of letters in those names Yeah, so Andre is in this case has spelled A and D R Z E J. And then Z E J really comes as a surprise at the end of a single speakers. It really does. Anyway, great names.

So she met this guy. He was a war hero. He was Polish. He had one leg. He was also a spy. And she was still married to Kiziki, but nevertheless she started up her relationship with Koworsky. It would be sort of a sort of a lifelong love on and off, even though again, she would also have many other sort of short affairs and flings. Some job related, some seemingly not. Yeah, there's a very popular story about her that she had a really, men would become obsessed with her.

So sometimes it was easier than others to get rid of guys. And in one case in Budapest, she had a knock on her apartment door. And former suitor, who she left left behind was begging her to come back and threaten that if she didn't, he would shoot himself in his genital organs. That was a drag quote. Yeah, and apparently he tried, but he missed and he ended up shooting himself in the foot. So he was quite serious about that. And I just can't help but wonder what her response was. Did she bring him in, her apartment and help nurse them and she go get help. What did she do?

Because I could see her like taking care of the guy. But also at the same time being like this is this doesn't mean we're back together. I just you know, don't want you to bleed to death from shooting yourself in the foot kind of thing. It really depends on who plays them in the movie. The guy. Yeah, if he's a sad sex, you might be like, get in here, what have you done to yourself? Like you literally shot yourself in the foot. Right. If it's played by some creep, then she shuts the door

and it's a hobble off. Yeah, good riddance to your foot. So to, you know, her dad had split and died at this point, but we did want to follow up about her mom.... she was teaching at a secret school in german occupied territory uh... not a good place to be because i don't think we mentioned that her family although she did convert to catholicism i believe her marriage uh... she was jewish and she was wealthy

and she wouldn't stop teaching at that school so uh... she would not leave the country with her daughter and she was eventually captured and uh... everyone basically agrees that she was probably killed. Yes. So both of her parents, I think her dad already died in her 20s. I'm not sure if we said that or not. So both of her parents are gone. She has a younger brother, but for the most part she's just kind of free to live her life. Oh, she has a husband back home by the way, but he's off doing his own thing for the Brits as a secret agent too. And really for all intents and purposes,

she's common law-married to Andre Koworski, despite having all of these separate flings that she's carrying out for her duties as a spy in the SOE. Yeah, and Koworski was also a spy. Yes, exactly. So her life is just dangerous for a moment to moment. So, I'm sure she's just loving every second of it. And like you said, she just kept going back and forth across the Polish Hungarian border,

sparing people and weapons and money and info. And she was working inside Poland with a group called the Muscatiers, who will pose a problem for her later on because they were like a resistance group like you know from Top secret. Yeah, that kind of thing, but they were French because of Shokalab moose and where were the other ones? I don't know I'm not talking about but they're the Musketeers. So of course they're the musketeers. So, of course, they were French. So no, they were Polish.

You said they were French. I'm saying in the movie Top Secret, they were French. Oh, the musketeers were Polish. I give it to you, mean? Yeah. So, the upshot, that was totally unnecessary, by the way, but the upshot of it is that from the musketeers, she managed to cement her reputation among the spies, both professional and amateur, working for Britain, when she brought information to the Brits that the Nazis

were about to break their non-aggression pact with the Russians and invade the Soviet Union. And it turned out that they invaded on the very day that her intel said that they would. Yeah, but Winston Churchill himself called her out and said, hmm, she's my favorite spy. And everyone said, is that a thing? Sure it is. Little, little in fact, Chuck Winston Churchill sounded exactly like Murray from Flight of the Contours. To FYI. This is a pretty good story and a lot of these are just little bits from her life, of course, Murray from flight of the contest to FYI. This is a pretty good story and a lot of these are just little bits from her life of course

that make for, you know, good stories and eventually a good movie. But she was in January of 1941. She had been arrested by Hungarian secret police, along with Kowerski, who she was, you know, she's doing spying with him. And after a couple of days of being interrogated, she very clandestinely bites into her tongue enough that it starts bleeding. And she starts coughing up blood as if she has TB.

And everyone freaks out because nobody wanted TB. And so they release them. It's a great idea. Yeah. You know, I've been in possibly the very rooms that she was being interrogated in in Budapest. They turned some of those places into museums that you can go and visit. Oh, cool. Wow, this is where the secret police interrogated people. It's nuts. And it's really well done. No, I didn't.

But it's like, I can't remember the name of the museum. There can't be too many of them, but Budapest has a few attractions like that, or kind of dark tourist attractions that are really worth visiting if you ever go. I'll have to ask him, because she went to museums there. I bet that was one of them. But it was. Now, but she also went to the hospital in the rock, which was a literal underground hospital built into a cave system that they preserved. It's they have wax dummies like hanging out that makes it even cooler. Do any of them look like us? No, but one of them smiling inappropriately.

Okay. Um, so, all right. Eventually she and, um, Korski are exposed as spies, like their cover is blown, and they still want to do their job so they adopt new identities. This is when she finally becomes Christine Granville. Korski became Andrew Kennedy, which is kind of funny, but you think about it. And like you said at the beginning, she was, she was grandville from there on out because that's sort of where she became even more famous and wanted to hang on to that name. And

this is where her birthday gets a little confusing because she gave herself a different birthday, obviously, to assume this new identity, which made her probably like six to eight years younger. And so whenever there are stories about her, there can be some confusion about whether or not she was like in her early to mid-20s or like mid-30s when a lot of this is coming on. Yeah. So she ended up bouncing off to Cairo to spy on the Polish intelligence service. So get this for confusing. Poland is occupied by Nazi Germany, but the Polish intelligence service still exists and is working against Nazi Germany. And at the same time, the SOE, in part, has infiltrated Poland with Polish

civilians, working as operatives. And they, as far as the Polish intelligence services concern, is working against the Polish intelligence services interests and is making life hard on them. So there was a rivalry between SOE operatives in Poland and the Polish intelligence services that ended up actually becoming problematic for Christine Grambo, because the intelligence services basically denounced she and Kowerski as if not spies like double agents, then they were being manipulated by double agents in the musketeers. I told you the musketeers would become problematic for them. This is where that happened. Yeah, I think because the musketeers were this freelance civilian group.

And you know, maybe they had been infiltrated by Axis spies. They, at the very least, were thought to have been infiltrated. So they, and we mentioned that, that Jaseki, her, her still husband was also a spy. He heard about what was going on. He seemed like a pretty stand-up guy because he heard about what was going on to her. And to now Andrew Kennedy, previously, Kawerski, and he was like, you know what? I'm not going to stand for this. I'm out of here. And that was kind of a real stand-up thing to do. He resigned. Eventually, she said, you know, I don't know if you're trying to like get back together with me,

but I'm still with, I'm still with this guy Kawerski, so I appreciate what you did, but that's not gonna end. He's like, oh I see Yeah, I just really my Real spying yeah, right man poor guy. So um that kind of settled that I think he kind of bows out of the story at this point, right? Yeah, but did they stay married? I don't know. Olivia, who helped us with this, said the relationship dissolved, but it already sounded fairly dissolved. I just don't know if they were officially not married at that point.

Yeah. I don't think it would have mattered much, practically speaking. No, you're right. But she and Kawersky, now Kennedy hung around Cairo for the next year while the Brits investigated them and whether they were actually spies or not. And the Brits later on said they were fully aware that they weren't spies and that they were loyal and that there was really no problem. But they were having to indulge the Polish intelligence services because they needed the Polish intelligence services. and yet it was the Brits who had gotten the whole thing stirred up by commanding Koworski not to report to the Polish intelligence services and only to report to them. Yeah, so that's what

brought the first animosity up between Koworski and then by association Granville with the Polish intelligence services who denounced them later as spies unfairly. But they got cleared ultimately from that investigation and they got back to work. Yeah, she got back to work in France actually. July of 1944, she goes to France. Now she is using the name Pauline Armand. She literally parachutes into the South of France. She's going there to get involved in the resistance there and start to sort of help out which eventually

the American invasion. So she's sort of laying the groundwork of what was to come for the United States involvement. She was, and this guy ends up being pretty important. She was a second command to a guy named Francis. How do you pronounce that last name, Friggy? Cameras, Cameras. Cameras. Cameras. Yeah, because the RTS would vote what I'll be pronounced. Okay, well, that sounds about right. He led the SOE's independent French. He was organizing sabotage, grill operations, saboture missions, stuff like that.

And Livya also points out in true movie fashion that when she was in France, she had cyanide tablets and knives sewn into the hymns of her skirt. Yeah, I think the knife was strapped to her thigh, but it was roundly described as razor sharp and that she carried it with her at all times. And yet, so she knew her way around a knife, I guess.

She didn't like guns very much. Her weapon of choice, get this chuck, was grenades. Yeah. Because she could take out multiple people at once. So she's like, of course, I'm going to use grenades. So, I mean, just one more thing that's like, wow, this lady is really astounding. Like her favorite weapon was grenades.

That's not the question. That's not the answer most people are expecting when you're asked that question. No, and that grenades actually play a part in one story that, and this is one that could be a little gussied up because it's written differently in different biographies, again, would make for a great movie scene. But she stopped at the Italian border, you know, they say, put your hands up and she's got, you know, grenades. She blo- you know, she holds up her arms and she's got grenades and she

said, I'm gonna- I'm gonna blow you all up and the Germans run screaming in the movie version. Right, so this was the story I was referring to earlier where if you switch out the bad guys, it's still an amazing story, but not quite as thrilling. Yeah. So this was described that she was stopped by German officers and the German officers fled.

So she scared off Nazis with this bluff. Or mine, I've even been a bluff. In reality, the other biography says, these were Italian conscripts. So these were soldiers who had basically been forced into soldiering, who were patrolling the border, probably pretty low-level soldiers, that you can imagine might run off a little faster

than maybe Nazi officers at the time. So that's what I was talking about. The story is probably true, but you just kind of add a little faster than maybe Nazi officers at the time. So that's what I was talking about. The story is probably true, but you just kind of add a little thing here and take this person out there and all of a sudden it's just eye popping. Yeah, absolutely. At one point in another story she was carrying, and this is cool kind of spycraft stuff I never thought about. If you carry a paper map and you're getting padded down, that map might rustle and crunch

and make some noise So they would carry silk maps So they wouldn't make any noise and she got caught with one of these silk maps, but before they could find it She yanked off her silk head scarf and tied up her map into her head and Spoke perfect French. I don't think we mentioned, but of course she spoke several languages. Right perfectly Yeah, and impersonated local and apparently got out of there. Funny enough, she spoke zero German. Yeah, I mean, she might not have needed to. She was pretending to be everything but German. She spoke German Shepherd though. Oh, God, this is the best one I think.

You go ahead. No, you. No, you. All right, there's one story where the Germans send in the German Shepherd to root them out. And I guess they were in the bushes or something. And the German Shepherd finds her. And she is able to charm this German Shepherd and to just kind of laying down and getting scrits while the Germans are whistling for this dog to come back.

This German Shepherd is like, no, this is my new mama. Right. The Germans were like, Fritz here. Yeah. I'd better be in the movie. Oh, we would have to be. Yeah. But what would be great is if they use that like 1950s film trick where they just play

the dog standing up in reverse to make it lay down. That always looks so funny. It's sort of uncanny. It's like, wait, what was it? They just play the dog standing up in reverse to make it lay down. That always looks so funny. It's sort of uncanny. It's like, wait, what was it? What just happened? Yeah, something, something was off of that. Oh, that's great. So, and I'm an extra in the background and the bush will just smile in like a few salaires. They're like, wait, isn't that the dead bulls-cutter Right. So, and you guys might be out there thinking, like, guys, you're just sitting there rattling off story after story, this is essentially a timeline of what she went through.

Like everything we just said, after she got to France, happened in France. Like that's how incredibly prolific she was. I think this all would have happened in 1943, 1944, I believe. So, I mean, this stuff is happening to her on like a daily basis. And I should say not happening to her. She's going out and finding this kind of thing and loving life, right? And then finally in 1944, she undertook what became like her most legendary mission.

And it sounds like she kind of took it on herself, which is something you could do as a SOE agent to large extent. As long as you were screwing up the enemy, they were fine with whatever you were doing. And then I guess it was the next year, in August of 1944, she undertook what was probably her most well-known, most celebrated mission.

And from what I can tell Chuck, she undertook it on probably her most well-known, most celebrated mission. And from what I can tell Chuck, she undertook it on her own accord. She was not ordered to do this. She just was like, I'm going to go do this. Sounds okay, great time for a cliffhanger. Okay. All right, we'll be back with the rest of the story right after this. This is In Retrospect, a podcast about pop culture from the 80s and 90s that shaped us. I'm very much a product of the pop culture I consumed, and I don't think that's a bad

thing. I'm Jessica Bennett, a New York Times writer and bestselling author. I'm Susie Bette Karam, an award-winning TV producer and filmmaker. Every week, we'll revisit a moment in cultural history that we just can't stop thinking about. From tabloid headlines to illicit student-teacher relationships, and one, very memorable red swimsuits.

I found myself in Pamela Anderson's attic, as you do. I put that red swimsuit in a safe because it seemed everybody wanted it. We're digging deep to better understand with these moments taught us about the world and our place in it. I want you to really smell the axe body spray that emanated during this time. It was presented more as kind of like a crime topic. Okay, not a love story. It had been branded on the uteruses of every single woman from C to shining C. Listen to In Retrospect on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

We're supposed to learn from our own mistakes, but other people's errors can be instructive too, and history is a treasure trove of mishaps and meltdowns that can teach us all. What happened when a zealous scientist tried to inject snow into a hurricane? How did the world's greatest illusionist trick his audience after he had died? Why did the inventor of Mother's Day try to take it all back? And how did we get the story of the Segway bosses on timely death on a Segway? So very wrong. I'm Tim Halford, host of cautionary tales, the podcast that minds the greatest fiascos of the past for their most valuable lessons.

Some stories will delight you, others may scare you, but they'll all make you wiser. Listen to cautionary tales on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, I'm Ben Nathafri, and I want to tell you about a show called The Last Archive. It's about the history of truth in 20th century America. Each episode we tell a story about how people came up with new ways of knowing things, endouting things over the last hundred years.

Histories of science, technology, democracy, and also some pretty far out characters. What, what, what the heck was that again? Well, it's Dr. Frankenstein's monster, isn't it? This season on the last archive, you'll hear stories about the dawn of social network theory. Of course I go, oh my god. Mid-century songwriting machines. I'm not an industrial spy, I'm a graduate student. Invasive species.

Just chanting all together, bring back the nest. Bring back the nest. All this and more on the new season of The Last Archive. Listen to The Last Archive on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, great cliffhanger, my friend. You really know how to set them up. Thanks. Sure. You know how to knock them down.

People say our show isn't scripted. That's a great line reading. Actually, we're the people that say that. So this was August 1944. Is that how you pronounce, you said? Why not? All right, Camar and a couple of other French resistance members were captured again by the Gestapo and they were about to be put to death. And guess who steps in to save the day? I don't know.

Christine Granville. Oh, take it away. Oh, okay. She shows up at this, I guess, a French prison that they were being interrogated at and were about to be executed and said, hey, I am the niece of General Bernard Montgomery who is on his way with a whole bunch of allies that are about to overtake this. And you French collaborators, you're going to pay a dear, dear price if you execute these men right before they get here. They're going to take it out on you and you're going to hate life.

And apparently they said, all right, we're properly scared, but can you sweeten the pot a little bit? And she said, okay, what about two million francs? And they said sold. So she handed off the bribe and they took off and left these three really, really important French resistance leaders to live. She saved their lives. And apparently after they left the prison,

they were like, I can't believe you just did that. And she said it just kind of hit her, finally, like just how dangerous it was. It hadn't even occurred to her that they might be like, no, we're not, and you're captured now too, and we're gonna exit you as well, because she was just so focused on what she needed to do and going to do it, and knowing she could do it, it didn't even occur to her that she was actually putting herself in incredible danger. Yeah, it was amazing. Apparently she turned in her report, typed it up, handed it in to the SOE, and

their reaction was, quote, good reading, going to make sure that I keep on Christine's side in the future. And another agent said, so am I, she frightens me to death. Very nice. Yeah, thank you. So the Allies won the war, spoiler alert, and especially in Europe, I should say. And as a result, Granville was awarded some pretty hefty awards. She actually wanted to remember, she's a civilian, a Polish civilian, and yet she was given the honor of officer of the Order of the British Empire. If you get that medal, you are a man,

British, and at least a lieutenant colonel. She was none of those things, and they still said, you were so amazing on our behalf, we're going to give you that. And she also got another one, the George Medal, too. Or the in Poland, they would call it the Jersey. Jersey. Jersey.

Jersey medal. Wait, who is the other Jersey? Did we even find him? Her second husband, the diplomat to Ethiopia was Yersey. That's right. Okay, and dad. All right. Just wanna make sure we covered that.

What was that, the French award? You won two, the quad to go together. Yes. The cross of Wars. It just, that's right. So this all seems like, oh great, this is amazing. I bet you after the war, the British government really took care of her and saw to it that she had the best job

in government. Not true. They kind of turned their back on her in a lot of ways. She tried to get citizenship and it took her quite a few years to get it. All the way until 1949, they cut off her financial support. They basically said, well, you know, what kind of job can she get? Quote, she cannot type. She has no experience, whatever for office work. And as all together, not a very easy person to employ, which maybe she wasn't the easiest person to employ in those regards, but she was

an exceptionally intelligent, crafty, resourceful human, and the fact that they couldn't find work for her is shameful. Yeah, so, or wouldn't find work for her. Wouldn't, I think that's it, because Churchill lost reelection shortly after the war, and he was the protector of the SOE and especially Granville who he decided was his favorite spy. It's a big deal. Churchill loved the SOE. He instructed them to set Europe ablaze was his quote but with him out of power they didn't have that cover from on high anymore and just like with the Polish intelligence service, the professional

intelligence people very much resented the amateurs thinking that they were doing the same work, the same quality as the professionals. So they were, I don't think it was just her specifically, but I think a lot of the SOE was turned out, although I think some actually were kind of brought aboard to be professionals, but she definitely wasn't. No, so where did she work? She worked as a housekeeper. She worked as a switchboard operator. She worked as a cruise ship waitress.

This is what her life was after that, you know, exciting time of war, doing some of the most dangerous things. You could imagine many of which, upon our own initiative, and she ends up working as a housekeeper and a switchboard operator and other sort of smaller jobs. Eventually, she would live in a house run by the Polish Relief Society. There is another rumor, and this is good stuff for the movie, but the character of Vesper Lind and Casino Royale, the great James Bond novel and films. Apparently was based on Grandville because she reportedly had an affair with Ian Fleming,

the author of the James Bond novels. Yeah, pretty neat. Did you know, I think we talked about the floor, but Ian Fleming and Raul Dahl guy who's who created Charlie and Chocolate Factory, they were both spies for the Brits in America. Yeah. I just find that endlessly fascinating. Yeah, there's we should do it. Episodal and that stuff. It's good. Okay. So, um, Christine Granville actually had reached the point in her 40s where she was ready to settle down with Kowersky. Um, and it was like, okay, we're gonna be-

He's a Kennedy after all. Right. We're just gonna start- he was definitely afraid of Wi-Fi and she was like, what's Wi-Fi? He's like, just wait and see. So she was ready to settle down, started a new normal everyday life and she was visited at that Polish Relief Society Hotel or boarding house by a guy that she had either had an affair with or had turned down who was a coworker on the cruise ship with her. His name was Dennis Muldowney and he stalked her and approached her in the lobby of that boarding house and stabbed her in the heart and killed her because he was so

obsessed with her. He said later that to kill is the final possession, which is an awful, awful sentiment. And I mean, good God. And he also said that he was still very much in love with her. So he murdered her out of just jealous obsession. Like, if he couldn't have her, no one could. And that's how Christine Granville, after all the danger she put herself in, after all the services she provided to the allies, the good guys, objectively, the good guys in World War II. She, she was murdered by a jealous jerk. Yeah. And in her, what sort of early 40s, Jerk. Yeah, and in her what sort of early 40s

still a young woman very very sad Yeah, but this crazed stalker Korsky for his part aka Kennedy lived to 1988 and His ashes at his request were flown to London to be interred alongside grandvils Korsky and we mentioned that, Camera Guy was a good guy. Then three other guys said who had been close to with Grandville, they formed the panel to protect the memory of Christine Granville after her death.

To, you know, she had a life full of, you know, marital affairs and sexual encounters and things like that. And they didn't want her story to be just sort of scandalized i think after her death and for people to focus in on that kind of thing uh... so they actually blocked biographies successfully for a while for coming out

blocked articles from coming out uh... eventually though articles and biographies would come out that would uh... tell the the full sort of proud story ever life and not in a scandalous way. Right. And the whole thing kind of like tilted, the world showed that it was ready for to appreciate Christine Granville when Claire Mollie, the historian, released the book The Spy Who Loved,

Cole and The Secrets and Lives of Christine Granville. That came out in 2012 and it's like the definitive biography on Granville. And it was extremely well received. And, Chuck, you can rest assured that there's a good chance we will be frozen extras in the movie because they are making at least one movie about it. Yeah. At one point Kate Winslet was attached to something would have loved to have seen that because Kate Winslet is the best. But there's one called the partisan

that supposedly shooting now with Roman Planski's daughter, Morgane playing Grand Bill. Yep. Who knew? I didn't know I had a daughter. I didn't know either. But that adds up French Polish actress. Sure.

Malcolm McDowell's in it too. I can't feel settled when he's on the screen. No, he's... He's old. Who would he be playing? I don't know, maybe Churchill. Hmm, he's got to be Gary Oldman or somebody, right? You know that's Andy McDowell's father, right? No.

No, I swear to God that's Andy McDowell's father. Malcolm McDowell? Yes. I thought she was like from the American South. She is. She was born and raised in North Carolina, but that is her father. Wow. I had no idea.

Yeah, we know Margaret Qualie is his granddaughter granddaughter then I guess. Yes. And she's married to Jack. Aaron off. Now wait, any McDowell's not this daughter. Yes, she is. Are they okay? Then she's Roddy McDowell's daughter. Okay, close, close, both British same last name. One was Kadegula, one was the dude from Cockroach. Well, now I feel like I don't have to check you but now I got to look at Roddy McDowell. No that one I'm sure of. Look it up. Are you sure? Yeah we'll wait. Alright well say something else like you know why don't

you read Listener Mail or something. Oh well how about this I'll sit you up for Listener Mail while you're looking and you can tell us on the other side of the chime whether I'm right or not. Okay. If you want to know listen and a meal while you're looking and you can tell us on the other side of the chime whether I'm right or not. Okay. If you want to know more about Christine Granville, you can check out Claire Mollie's book, The Spy Who Loved. And there's plenty of other great stuff on the internet to read about her too and then look out for me and chuck in the movie. And since I said look out for me and chuck in the movie, it's time for a listen and a meal. All right, I'm going to call this, uh, Roddy McDowell was actually gay and never

married. Good lord. Okay, well then let's let's reverse this course. Who is Andy McDowell's father? Well, that's what I was gonna say. That would be the sensible thing to do. I do know Margaret Qualie's her daughter. No, that's definitely true. She was in maid, have you seen maid? You know I never saw that. It's on the list. It is really good. And Andy McDowell, who I'm not usually a huge fan of as an actress, I don't think she's well used very much

as far as characters go. She really nails it as Margaret Qualie's kind of like near-do-well mom who's still trying to be in her life. It's just a really great kind of gut wrenching movie. Yeah, and I can also recommend while we're here, the movie Sanctuary. It was out last year with Margaret Qualie. And who's that guy?

I really like him a lot. He was in Girls. Christopher Abbott. Of course. And it's sort of a two person movie. And it's really, really good. Highly recommended. And by the way, in case you wondered,

Aida McDowell's dad was a lumber executive from South Carolina. Named Malcolm McDowell, who's also the actor. Marion the St. Pierre McDowell. Oh boy. Wow, that was a journey. I've got another movie for you since we're talking about movies. I got two as a matter of fact. One. Let McDowell. Oh boy. Wow, that was a journey. I've got another movie for you since we're talking about movies. I got two as a matter of fact, one.

Let's hear it. My niece, Meela, is in a movie that's out on the big screen called The Hill. Another one? Yes. It's called The Hill. It's a super duper Christian movie, like legitimately, like they call out Jesus Christ, but the preachers not like set up to be like

a demonstration of hypocrisy. He's actually like a preacher. Usually not my genre, but and I probably wouldn't have seen it have my niece not been in it, but it is actually really good. And Dennis Quaid is the father, the main character. And he does an excellent job. And it's just a, it's worth seeing. It's pretty upliftinglifting and Mela just knocks it out of the park as the young version of the main dudes love interest. Boy Mela is just killing it. Yes and that is so great you guys must be so excited. Oh yeah it was so cool to go to them like just a normal movie theater and get popcorn and then see our niece up there on the big screen. I love it. That is amazing.

The other one was the black hole that Disney won from 1979. I just had an itch to watch it and man does it hold up. You think so? Okay. Yep. It's even better than I remember it as a kid. All right. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. It was a chuck.

I'm going to call this a 10-year-old request. We don't usually read requests, but we like hearing from our young listeners, and this is from Henry. Dear Josh and Chuck, my name is Henry, and I'm 10 years old. Really love your podcast, and I'll sit to it every day on the way to school. I'm writing it mainly because I think you should make an episode about the psychology, where if you paint all the walls of a room black or a different dark color, it makes the said room feel much smaller.

Now, I know I could just read an article about this, but that would just be boring. Plus, I'd rather hear it from you guys. So whatever time of day you're reading this, I fare well to you. I would love to see that episode come out. Bye, and that is Henry. And Henry, I think that would make a great short stuff. How color affects the perception of size. I love it. Nice. Thanks a lot Henry. We appreciate that. We appreciate your charming

characters as well. Thank you for adding that to the email. It could have been totally boring and straightforward and you didn't do that. So thanks. That's right. Go Henry. If you want to be like Henry and have us say go Henry but with your name instead of Henry, you can send us an email to StuffPodcast at iHeartRadio.com. of Henry, you can send us an email to StuffPodcast at iHeartRadio.com. Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Sometimes the pop culture we love just teens hits differently in retrospect.

Maybe it's a tabloid story we couldn't get enough of or an illicit student teacher relationship on our favorite show. We're Suzy Bannock-Harem and Jessica Bennett, posts of the new podcast in retrospect. Where each week we'll revisit a cultural moment from the past that shaped us, and probably you, to try to understand what it taught us about the world and our place in it. You're the first person that I've talked to about this for years and years. Listen to In Retrospect on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you find your favorite shows.

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