Suggestible - Beast and Exiles

Episode Date: September 22, 2022

Suggestible things to watch, read and listen to. Hosted by James Clement @mrsundaymovies and Claire Tonti @clairetonti.This week’s Suggestibles:05:21 Exiles by Jane Harper15:17 Beast22:11 We Can Do Hard Things with Dr. Becky Kennedy43:40 Septurtles Coming Next Week!!46:15 BBC's The CaptureSend your recommendations to [e-mail], we’d love to hear them.You can also follow the show on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook @suggestiblepod and join our ‘Planet Broadcasting Great Mates OFFICIAL’ Facebook Group. So many things. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Uber Teen Accounts. Invite your teen to join your Uber account today. Available in select locations. See app for details. What's happening here? Oh, it's your birthday soon, isn't it? It's my birthday soon. I'm singing myself happy birthday bing bongs.

I just realized I should do something for your birthday. Is there anything that you – you probably don't want anything actually. I think there's gift – Don't give me anything. Don't do anything. The gift of podcasting is enough, I feel. That is, I still feel incredibly true. When someone tells you not to do anything for their birthday,

they don't mean it. I mean it. Yeah, but you're not most people. But no, if I did literally nothing, like I know you mean you don't want like a surprise party or to do anything, but if I got you nothing, like zero presents or anything. No, that's fair, yeah. No, I just meant like if I'm like, hey, don't do anything for my birthday,

I mean don't physically make me do anything. That's what you mean. But you don't mean don't get me a thoughtful gift. No, I don't mean that. Yeah, and I just always feel if you're unsure, err on the side of get them a bloody birthday present. Just get them something, even if it's something small, even if it's like a mop.

Wives love that. A room bath. A room bath. Yeah, exactly. Something that will make. Yes. Nothing functional as in like, I mean, actually that is so not true because you have to know the person.

I was talking about this with Jane Harper, the author. Oh my God. Here we go. We're never going to hear the end of it. Oh my goodness. Hello. Before we get into that, my name is Claire Tonti. James Clement is here also.

We are married and welcome to Suggestible Apocca, so we recommend you things to watch, read and listen to. Yeah. We're so glad you're here. Okay, back to my shameless name drop. Yep, yep, yep. So listeners would be familiar if you've been listening from the start that I love Jane Harper's book, The Dry,

that was turned into a movie starring the one and only Eric Banner. I also love that book and movie. Yes. And I have subsequently recommended all her other books as well, which are excellent. Anyway, I got to interview her this week and I lost my tiny mind. I've never been so nervous. In fact, I just kept walking around the house being like, nervous, nervous, nervous, nervous, nervous, nervous, nervous, nervous.

And I'm like, is she nervous? I was terrified. And then poor Colleen because the sound was a bit like dodgy and the internet was not great. It was just a whole thing. I think it will be fine though. Yeah. But back to what I was talking to her about because there's actually

quite a romance element to this book. Oh. Which is really exciting. I love a big kiss. Yeah, because she's got a new book that's just come out today actually, on the 20th of September. Right, right, right. So when we release this, it'll be out for a couple of days.

But she was talking about how, and there's a scene that she writes beautifully, that to her romance is not about giant big gestures where you end up really cold on a boat at 7pm at night and you weren't sure that you were supposed to be there and you're actually afraid of water or something or like high in a hot air balloon or at a weird French restaurant, which we sat out once. Do you remember we went out on Valentine's Day once and we went to this like weird French restaurant and they crammed like a million couples in?

Oh, there was like 400 people in there. Yeah, and there was like red roses on the tables, but it was so awkward and awful and forced and we were basically rubbing shoulders with like couples on either side of us. It was very romantic. Yeah, anyway, she was saying there's very quiet romance and wonderful romance in practicality. Right, yeah, yeah.

And being really thoughtful and knowing your partner. So there's a scene in her book where the lead detective, Aaron Fork. He's back. He takes his lady friend to a beautiful view. But what he does do is he like brings sparkling water and with the champagne and sort of says that he'll drive but also that he knows she needs to be back to do her job. So they're just going and he's also bought her like nice warm clothes

and it's like this lovely kind of very practical romantic but also thoughtful date. Wow, they should call him Aaron Forkful. Forkful. Forkful. Is that anything? What I just did then? That was pretty good.

Was it? I don't think it was. I started playing her. In my head I started going to like a swear word, like a bit of an F-U-C-K. And I'm like, where's he going with this? Aaron. Aaron Fork has been through a lot, Claire.

I would never besmirch his name. Aaron fuck a lot. That's got me my brain doing it. I think he does a regular amount of that. Not too much and not too little. I'm so sorry, Jane Harper. I've already butchered your lovely lead character. Anyway, back to what you were saying about the mop.

Most likely don't get your wife a mop for a birthday. However, if your wife like has a passion for cleaning and some people actually do. Sure. And there is like some fancy, incredible mop that she's been looking at for ages, then that actually could be a really thoughtful present. If you know your person really well, it's a real gamble, but if you know them really well, do you know what I mean? I do. I think it's also like it should be that and like another thing though also. Not just like here's a mop. Totally. But remember that year that you bought

me a wheelbarrow? And I loved it. Oh yeah. That's true. And that's because I bloody love a garden. But for another person that would have been a real slap in the old vulva. What the hell? What is happening in this episode? I'm getting very raunchy. I just am so excited. That's raunchy, isn't it?

That's as far as that's as raunchy as I get. Anyway, back to Jane Harper. I'm very excited to talk about her new book, Exiles. Would you like to go first, though? Oh, sure. I mean, no, you're in it, so you may as well. I may as well. All right. Okay. So you may remember well all right okay so so you may may remember the dry detective aaron fork goes back to his hometown in rural victoria that's drought stricken because there's been a horrible murder and he has to investigate there's also obviously some really dark history there in the town and anyway and that kind of unfolds then the second book that he is also in is called force of nature and that's when he has to go and investigate a disappearance in bushlands.

I've read both of those. You have and that's really good too. So Exiles is the third book in that series. Yes. And I'll just read the little synopsis. At a busy festival site. Just while you're reading that, what should I do? Look hot.

Okay. As in sweaty. Oh, now I am. Look pensive. Okay. I didn't say constip, yeah. Look pensive. Okay. I didn't say constipated. It's pensive. What is that?

Why are you scrunching your face up? Because I'm pensive. Look engaged. Oh. He's just like, this is an audio medium. It's like, ooh. It's like that. Ooh, really?

That is it. Gosh, let me get on with my job. Please go on. They're professionals. I can't do it. S, really? That is it. Gosh, let me get on with my job. Please go on. We're professionals. I can't do it while your silly face is looking at me. All right, I'm so excited. I'm just going to barrel along. At a busy festival site on a warm spring night,

a baby lies alone in her pram, her mother vanishing into the crowds. A year on, Kim Gillespie's absence casts a long shadow as her friends and loved ones gather deep in the heart of the South Australian wine country to welcome a new addition to the family. Joining the celebrations is, as we said, Aaron Falk, but as he soaks up life in the Lash Valley, he begins to suspect this tight-knit group may be more fractured than it seems.

Between Falk's closest friend, a missing mother, and a woman he's drawn to, dark questions linger as long-ago truths begin to emerge. Oh. Yes, and Jane Harper is really expert. In the interview that I do with her this week, we talk about how she loves a double kind of mystery. So usually in her books there's the main mystery

but there's also a secondary one. Secondary mystery. And it becomes unclear whether or not they're connected and she likes kind of pulling all those threads together. And she also writes really beautifully conversation between characters and you really get to know them. And overall, most of her characters are good hearted, even when they make kind of flawed decisions. And I feel like that's another reason why her books have done so well, because there is a real humanity to her characters.

The other thing obviously. A staggering amount has been sold as well. Yeah, it's crazy. I think over 1.5 million in Australia and 3.5 million globally. Yeah. It's just insane. I mean Aaron Fork is said to be played by Eric Banner in the second movie now, Force of Nature.

A second movie. And I'm assuming they'll probably turn Exiles into a film. Presumably, yeah. Presumably as well. If this one does as well as the other. Yeah, yeah. Oh, by the way, our son and his friend are playing Mario Party next door. So if you're like, why are there kids in the background?

That's why. School holidays. We can't move them anywhere else because our daughter's sleeping inside so they can't play Mario Kart in the house because then they'll wake her up and then we have to stop the podcast. Anyways, just so you know what's happening. If you're a parent out there, you know what's what. You know what's what.

You know what's up. So, yeah, I really recommend reading Oaks Isles. I really enjoyed it. It's a lot, I would say it's less violent than her previous, particularly than The Dry. Yeah, The Dry's not like super violent. No, it's more that it's quite graphic. The crime in The Dry is very, very graphic.

That's a very good point. Yeah, and what she does so well is using the Australian landscape as a character in her books and she describes each setting so beautifully and so from, you know, outback Queensland, now she's writing about the South Australian wine country, which is just glorious. It's set at a wine festival as well. So the disappearance of Kim, the mother,

where she leaves her newborn in a pram is heartbreaking but there's also a lovely romantic thread throughout the book, which is kind of really lovely to read as well. I really recommend it if you enjoyed her other books. I also, I think one of my favourites is actually The Lost Man, which is set in that rural Queensland, kind of in these really isolated, remote areas. That's the un-Aaron Falk one.

Yeah, that's not Aaron Falk. And the other one that I really love that was set in Tasmania is called The Survivors. So if you're after just a standalone book, those two are both great. You don't have to have read any of the others. And actually you don't really have had to have read the other ones to enjoy Excels, though I recommend it. Right, okay, cool.

So starting with The Dry and then moving on from there. The Dry is also like if you haven't read any of these, it's well worth it if you're just like, you know, something to read that's. Yeah, it's a real page turner. A real page turner. Yeah, and we talk a lot in the interview with Jane about her approach to writing and she writes really methodically

because she was a print journalist. I find that interesting. I've talked before on the show about how she was working full time and she just decided now or never and set aside like an hour a day, she would stay in her work uniform and sit down after work and write a little bit each day or get up a little bit early and do it that way. But she explains really specifically in the interview

that she starts backwards. So she'll actually start with the scene that incorporates all the characters kind of at the end of the book, that kind of Sherlock Holmes-esque kind of vibe where you know who's done it and what the problem has been and why they've been murdered and all of that stuff. So she starts with that scene and then she works back from there, which I find really interesting.

And she starts kind of methodically plotting out what scenes need to occur for that scene to happen. Yes. And so as she works her way back, she'll start with just sentences and then kind of go scene by scene by scene by scene. And then each of those scenes she'll then flesh out more to figure out exactly who needs to be in each of those scenes and why. Right, okay.

Which I find really interesting. And so she works backwards, eventually having maybe 50,000 words that is the chapters then set out with all the scenes that need to be there, which is how she kind of makes all the threads work. And once she's got 50,000 words that she's really happy with, the way it is all set out, then she'll go back to the beginning and start writing. Really?

Which I find really interesting. So she's very methodical. That's really interesting. Yeah. The other thing she said I thought you might find interesting too is that when she's spoken to other writers about her process, some of them are horrified. Why?

Because they like to just start and then just go. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Or they might work around in a more creative way, like they might start building their characters out first and doing deep research into those particular types of characters. Or they might just have that kind of lightning strike and feel like they just need to write and get a sense of it all.

There's no right or wrong way, is there? No, there really isn't. And I found that so interesting. She said and some of these writers she's speaking to are, you know, giant bestsellers and just they can't come at any way near why she writes that particular way in such a prescriptive way. I mean it doesn't matter because it obviously works for her, you know, so why would you mess with that?

Exactly. Yeah. I mean maybe she'd want to switch it up at for her, you know, so why would you mess with that? Exactly. Yeah. I mean, maybe she'd want to switch it up at some point but, yeah, it seems I like that. That sounds good to me actually, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, as a method. Having never written anything.

Why does it sound good to you? I don't know. I like the idea of having it all mapped out and then as you're writing it, you know exactly kind of where it's going like thoroughly. I think it's similar to a lot of filmmakers that I like. They storyboard the entire movie. So they've visualised it so many times and they have that representation of that in front of them when they go to shoot each individual scene

or even shots within scenes. So you don't get there on the day and like, I don't know, put the camera there or whatever. You know exactly what you're looking for, which is, again, something I have not done. No, but it's really interesting. I guess in a way it also makes it seem more achievable. I think so, yeah, totally, yeah.

Because you're not kind of just hoping for the best. The idea of like working backwards I don't think is like that's not uncommon but then to then flesh it out to the point where it's like 50,000 words and then starting from the start, Like I'd never heard that before. I found that really interesting. Well, it sounds like a great interview, Claire. I wonder when it's coming out. Coming out not this Friday, next.

So 30th of September. Paul Colling says he's worked cut out for him to put the audio together in a way that makes sense. But I really loved it. She also talks a bit about what it was like to make Eric Banner and the process of the book being turned into a screenplay. Yeah, right. Which I thought, because that film also did really well.

Yeah, it did, yeah, especially considering it's like, it's pretty low budget, you know. Yeah, totally. You don't need to like a, it doesn't need to be like a $400 million movie. No. To obviously do, which is why it's getting a sequel obviously. Totally. One other interesting fact before we move on to your recommendation,

I thought, in this interview, we talk about mum guilt and what that feels like because in 2016 when The Dry was an unfinished manuscript or an unpublished manuscript, she just put it into a competition for unpublished manuscripts as a deadline. Right, okay. And then just never thought anything of it and And it won and she was utterly shocked. And then a bidding war started over this book. Yeah.

But what I find so fascinating is at the same time as that came out, she just had got married, she got pregnant and had a baby. So literally that year, 2016, her entire life completely changed and she talks about what that was like and also how much of a different person she is from the person that wrote The Dry. Yeah, right. She was writing The Dry, working full-time as a print journalist and not married and with no kids to suddenly being a global best-selling

author with now two children. Yeah. And now becoming a full-time author. I mean that's just so interesting. Insanity. Yeah, I know. Anyway, okay, over to children. Yeah. And now becoming a full-time author. I mean, that's just, it's so interesting. Insanity. Yeah, I know. Anyway, okay, over to you. Wow.

Claire, I watched a movie and this movie is called Beast and it's from the year 2022. It's directed by Balthazar Kormakur, who is a director known for other movies, including the movie Two Guns with Mark Wahlberg and probably Denzel Washington, which I haven't seen, but also better movies, including this movie Two Guns with Mark Wahlberg and probably Denzel Washington, which I haven't seen, but also better movies, including this one. It stars Idris Elba. Are you familiar with him?

Mm-hmm. He was in the latest Suicide Squad movie. Did you watch that one where they fight a giant starfish? No, I didn't. You didn't watch that one? No, I haven't. Okay. Sorry.

I haven't watched any of the Suicide Squad. The second one is pretty good. It's really violent, though. You probably wouldn't like it. It also stars Ayanna Halle, Leah Savva, and Sharto Copley. Sorry, Copley. It doesn't matter. He's the guy from District 9.

You know, he's like, prawns. That guy. That's a good movie. I agree. Yeah. Wow, that's really bold of you to say that that really popular and beloved movie is a good movie. They are going to do a sequel.

Apparently it is happening because I don't know if you remember, that movie ends on a pretty significant cliffhanger and then they're like, see you in two years or whatever. And then that was 2009. Because he turns into a brawn alien and then the ending is that he ends up going on the ship with them. Is that right? No, he stays behind and they go and say they'll be back to cure him.

Ah, so the aliens go to find him a cure. Yeah, and a whole other thing and whatever. I remember I watched that when we were living, we weren't living in South Africa but we were living in Tanzania and I watched that on a laptop and I'm like, oh, my God, this is the best movie I've ever seen in my life. And not knowing anything going into it, it kind of starts

as a weird kind of documentary. Sort of Blair Witch 5 almost. Yeah, sort of, not even. And then it turns into just like, then it's body horror and then it ends with like him in a mech like shooting people. It just like, it just blows all out. It's really great. It's a great movie.

Anyways, this movie, Beast. Here's the synopsis, Claire, if you'd be so kind as to look at it. I would love a synopsis. So recently widowed- Hit me with it. He recently widowed, doctored Nate Daniels and his two teenage daughters traveled to South Africa to a South African game reserve managed by Shato, hopefully, he's that guy, yeah, an old friend and wildlife biologist. However, what began as a journey of healing soon turns into a fearsome fight for survival when a lion, a survivor of bloodthirsty poachers, begins stalking them. So do you know

what the kind of movie this is, Claire? It's like when Adam was trying to kill people. It's like one of those movies. You love these kind of movies. I do. So I do. So I love animals stalking and killing a person movies, right? For example, The Shark in Jaws is a good example. The Lions in The Ghost in the Darkness, another lion hunting movie. The Dog in Cujo. Meryl Streep in The Devil Wears Prada. These are all examples of predators. Claire, stalking people.

So, look, it's exactly what you think it would be, you know? Like it's a man who has to fight a lion and protect his family, but also his family are also fighting the lion alongside him at the same time. So it's basically this lion you see at the start, like its whole pride is killed by poachers, so it just goes berserk and just starts just murdering anybody and everybody. It also uses lots of oners or at least makes it seem like they're oners, which is where it looks like one really long extended shot.

You're always banging on about these. I like him some of the time. It depends if they're done well or necessary, but I feel like there's a lot of this movie, not all of it, is set inside a Land Rover and so you're in the you're in the car with like, with the characters and it's like whipping around trying to figure out like where the, which direction the line is coming from. And the other thing is the lions in this, because there's a few of them, they're completely

CGI and it's, I mean, they'd have to be because of the stuff that is done in this, but it's incredible. Like it looks amazing. And on top of that, the performances also match that because if the person's like, oh no, I'm being eaten by a lion or whatever, you know, they sell it really well. So it's like people in mocap suits, you know, like attacking and pouring it Idris Elba or whoever. And he's like reacting realistically. And it's like quite gory people getting like slashed and bitten and screaming and all of those kinds of things. But no, it's good.

It's a movie where a man has to kill a lion. So, you know, that's exactly what it is and it's well worth checking out, I think, if you're into that. Why is it that you love those kind of movies so much? Because I remember when we first started dating you showed me Ghost in the Darkness as one of your favourite movies. What is it about? I don't know if it's – no, the Darkness as one of your favourite movies. What is it? I don't know if it's – no, it's not one of my favourite movies.

I'm just like this is a fun movie about a lion that Val Kilmer has to shoot. Why is it those type of movies that you quite like? Because you don't like horror. No, I like horror enough. No, but that's the thing. I don't love these either. There's a bunch of these that I watch that I'm like I don't love this. The Meg?

No, I don't like The Meg. The Meg sucks. It's a bad movie. But like for example, the movie Rogue. Have you seen that one with the giant crocodile? I don't like The Meg. The Meg sucks. It's a bad movie. But like, for example, with the movie Rogue, have you seen that one with the giant crocodile? I think you have seen that. Yes, I have. I liked that one. Yeah, that's an incredible movie, I think.

Yeah, I do too. But there are other examples like the movie Supermarket Shark where a shark gets into a supermarket, which is like, it's not as good. Or Snakes on a Plane. Snakes on a Plane, which I admittedly I've never seen. Like there are good and bad examples of all of this. But what I'm saying, Wolf Fight, that's another one, Liam Neeson's Wolf Fight.

It's actually called The Grey. But there are, that's actually a spectacular movie like Outside. Yeah, that wasn't a beautiful movie. It's not really about the wolves. I mean it is, but, you know, it's a whole lot of other stuff going on there. But I don't know. I think it's just, you know, a good movie is a good movie. And I think, you know, this is that I feel. All right. What's that on? It's on, I think it's just, you know, a good movie is a good movie and I think this is that, I feel.

All right. What's that on? It's on, I think it's streaming at the moment but it also is still in cinemas, I believe. Yeah, it should be. Oh, I thought it's just. No, it is still in cinemas, yeah. But I think it's also maybe just started streaming or will be soon.

Oh, great. Excellent. All right. I actually might watch that maybe but now you've talked about it so maybe not. You should watch it, Claire. I should actually. Do you like Idris Elba?

I do. Do you like photography? I love photography. It's got a lot of photography. It's got a lot of beautiful South African photography. Oh, amazing. We kind of did that. We went on a safari and drove into a pride of lions.

We did. We killed them all. Great. Except for that one that got away. Oh, my God. There'll just be news reports now about a couple that murdered a whole lot of lines. Terrible. Well, you know.

We did it for the record. Yeah. By the way, I told these kids, I'm like, hey, we're doing a podcast. Can you keep it down? And they're like, yep. They don't listen, Claire. No. They don't listen.

Kids these days, they don't have any respect for me specifically. It makes me mad. I'm sure there's a meme like that that just says kids, these kids don't listen. These goddamn kids, they never listen. Totally. Exactly. These goddamn kids, they never listen. Totally, exactly. These youths. All right. One of my favorite memes is about laundry to do with parenting.

And it's just like, if you think that you're, if one of your dreams is to finish your laundry or something, you need to find a new dream. And I can't remember. It's worded much better than that. No, I think it's the perfect. Anyway, correct. There's just never ending buckets of laundry. Introducing Uber Teen Accounts,

an Uber account for your teen with enhanced safety features. Your teen can request a ride with top-rated drivers, and you can track every trip on the live map in the Uber app. Uber Teen Accounts. Invite your teen to join your Uber account today. Available in select locations. See app for details. Okay, moving right along. I have a parenting

podcast to recommend. I know. Actually, surprisingly, I usually, I know for someone that talks a lot about parenting, you think I love reading parenting books. I really don't. I hate reading parenting books. Me too. So annoying. However, I do love Dr. Becky, who I've talked about before. Yes. So Dr. Becky is a clinical psychologist and mum of three named The Millennial Parenting Whisperer by Time Magazine. She's rethinking the way we raise our children, empowering parents to feel sturdier and more equipped to manage the challenges of parenting.

Dr. Becky is founder of the Good Inside membership platform, a hub with Dr. Becky's complete parenting content collection all in one place, author of Good Inside, A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, which is out this month, and her podcast Good Inside with Dr. Becky was one of Apple Podcast's best shows of 2021. My goodness. Now I know I've talked about her before,

but I wanted to talk about a specific podcast where she's interviewed by one of my favourites, Glennon Doyle, on her podcast, We Can Do Hard Things. It's called Breaking Cycles and Reparenting Yourself. And a massive light bulb went on for me during this, actually a million light bulbs, but one of which was something that I think innately I've always known. People often say to me that I'm good with kids and obviously

I'm a teacher and, yes, I love kids and that's really fun. Also, a lot of teachers aren't good with kids. Correct. kids and obviously I'm a teacher and yes, I love kids and that's really fun. But actually- Also, a lot of teachers aren't good with kids. Correct. Actually, and that doesn't mean I was a good teacher. It just meant that I like kids. But what I realized is, yes, I like kids, but actually kids are just small people and I like people.

Yeah. And that's what I like about teaching and about working with kids and maybe because kids are less filtered than adults. So their humanity is just, it's kind of just out there for you to see in a different kind of way, which is what I loved about teaching. There's less kind of all of all the bullshit layers that adults have put on themselves by the time they, you know, get to their 30s and 40s.

So it was such a lightbulb parenting moment for me and life moment for me because Dr. Becky's whole message is actually not so much about and there's a lot of specific things to do with how to teach kids and grow your kids into good people. But her real message underlying is you are good inside as a person, as a human. Of these bloody kids playing Mario Party, I'll tell you that much. Yeah. But you are good inside as a person, as a human. Of these bloody kids playing Mario Party, I'll tell you that much. Yeah.

But you are good inside as a person and a human. And you need to feel sturdy as a parent to then parent effectively. Okay, yeah. And that when we talk about problems with our kids and issues with our kids, what we want them to know as well is that they are good inside and that their mistakes and their foibles and their emotional outbursts and their inability to self-regulate and snatching something from their sister and punching their brother or whatever it is, that doesn't change the fact that they're good inside.

And I think it sounds like a simple message but actually I think that's really profound because I think there's a lot of adults walking around with this idea that maybe they're not good inside. Right. Reflected in the kind of behavior that they make or the choices that they make or where their life's taken them. They have this idea that maybe they're not good. And actually that idea that we're all intrinsically good inside, that maybe we're having a hard

day or a hard time. Yeah. Is such a light bulb for me. And in this particular episode, they talk about the three most important things to say to your kids and your partner every day. Oh. Which I find so valuable. Turn it off.

Turn that thing down. And actually, the first one, and I won't go into the other two because I really want you to listen to the episode, but the first one is just I believe you. Ah, yeah. So rather than I think when kids are having a massive meltdown or something's really difficult or frightening, often our response is don't be frightened, don't be scared, don't be sad. It's fine.

It's fine. Everything's fine. Don't feel the way you're feeling. Whereas I think that message is so comforting if you just start with I believe you. I's fine. Don't feel the way you're feeling. Whereas I think that message is so comforting if you just start with, I believe you. I see you. I'm sorry you're feeling that way. That must be really hard. Like that's massive, not just for kids, but for adults to be validated in that way and not have the feeling that they're having dismissed. And then once you start from there, then you can kind of build up into listening and sitting beside them.

I think a lot of times they want to be heard. They want to be believed, you know, because to them, and not just to them, it's true that they're feeling a certain way. Like that is true, you know. Yeah, completely. And what she talks about a lot, which I think is also powerful, is that what's really happening when kids are dysregulated and also often when people make really stupid choices and are feeling what they're feeling, it's actually about aloneness and feeling alone in the moment, even if they're surrounded by people. It's like, I feel alone in

this because I'm the only one that is feeling scared or frightened or I've hit someone so therefore I'm a bad kid and I feel alone now in that badness, you know? Yeah, absolutely. And so what I love so much about her message in this episode is that it's not our job to kind of just be the dictators and kind of yelling at our kids whenever they've done something wrong. It's about A, teaching them the skills. So when that issue comes up again, they're more likely to behave in the way we want them to, but B, sitting beside them. So rather than dismissing their feelings or saying, don't feel that way, don't feel that way.

She has this beautiful analogy that made me cry, which is feel that way, don't feel that way. She has this beautiful analogy that made me cry, which is just that kids won't remember when they're adults, all the minute things that we've done for them. But what we want them to remember is that we were there beside them because our bodies remember feelings long after our brains have forgotten them. And so when bad things happen to them when they're older, when we're not there and we're not able to be there, you want their body to have that feeling of you sitting beside them. And they might not even be able to articulate anything. They're not like, you know, something bad might happen to them as a teenager

and they're at a party. They're not going to go, oh, now I feel my mother's presence. But it's a feeling of security in their body. I'd be like,, now I feel my mother's presence. I feel better, yeah. But it's a feeling of security in their body. I'd be like, oh, I feel my mother's presence. No, you wouldn't. You love your mum. But, you know, it's that idea that they've got a firm, sturdy anchoring in their body and they've got like an imprint

of you just being beside them. Watching them. Watching them. Do you know what I mean? No, that absolutely makes sense. Yeah. I totally understand that. I just think it's so lovely.

The other thing she says is she talks about why poorly behaved kids can be a sign of good parenting. Wow, that's a bold statement. What do you mean by that? I love this so much. It's such a mind flip, right? Because she says what do we value in kids at this age? We often value kids who are compliant, quiet,

like don't demand their feelings. You know, but just like say their please and thank yous, seen and not heard. And then we kind of go, well, those and eat, you know, everything that's put in front of them, all of that stuff. And we praise those parents as good parents because they're clearly doing the right thing, you know, and the parents whose kids are wild and talking back and, you know, doing some of those other kind of behaviors, having big feelings at parties and, you know, outbursts,

we can kind of say, you know, there's a judgment layer that can come in around that stuff. And she was saying, but what do we want as adults? We value people who are opinionated, who are confident, who speak their mind, who can articulate how they're feeling, can think differently and outside of the box, take initiative, you know, all of those things and self-regulate as well. And so it's not about not giving your kids boundaries, but it's about understanding that maybe the fact that your kid is able to articulate how they're feeling and what they need in that moment means that you're teaching them properly how to self-regulate rather

than parenting from a place of fear. Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because something dangerous she talks about in this is that if we parent with fear, like just instilling fear into our kids, as we grow older, we're likely to seek that kind of relationship out in a partner. And so then you might end up in a relationship with someone who you're scared of, which is in itself a big one. That's like me.

Great, you're terrified of me. Anyway, and obviously as she talks about doing this episode, patterns of behaviour in adulthood might be patterns of behaviour but we're always able to be rewired and relearned. So just, you know, we're all going to mess up our kids in our own special way and they're going to be able to also rewire and unlearn the things that haven't served them. Like we're not, you know, just because we have not necessarily

always made the best choices for our kids doesn't mean growing up that they're screwed forever. Or if we've had difficult childhoods that we will then are just doomed to make the same patterns. It's about rewiring and unlearning all of that stuff. But wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to unlearn some of it? Oh, absolutely. And also that kind of gives you some insight into maybe why we've chosen

in the past particular partners that we have, you know, as people. Anyway, it's just I can't explain it other than that it's absolutely, I think, a real game-changing episode. So it's called Breaking Circles and Reparenting Yourself. We Can Do Our Things with Glennon Doyle and Dr. Becky. Good insight. Wow, Claire, that sounds boring. Let's continue.

You don't have any other opinions on that? No, I have many opinions on that, Claire. Well, I think, no, it's, I mean, you know, we're all trying, aren't we? We're all like, oh, God. Every day with this. Have I fucked up this permanently forever? But no, it's, I don't know. I think it's, you know, resilience isn't just like put yourself together,

get on with it or whatever, you know. I think that's not necessarily healthy to tell kids whereas, you know, offering them that kind of support obviously you can see how that, like it seems obvious but it's not kind of the way that things are kind of set up, you know. Yeah, and you said to me when I brought this up the other day, you also like that idea that our kids are able to actually stand up for themselves and articulate their needs.

Yeah. And it's not about being rude but it's about having sturdiness in themselves. I love that, like when our kids are like no to something that they don't want to do. You know, it can obviously be difficult but they're just like they're secure enough in themselves to be like. Politely. Yeah, politely like, yeah, no're secure enough in themselves to be like. Politely. Yeah, politely like, yeah, no, I'm not going to do that.

No, thank you. No, thank you and whatever, yeah. Yeah, because I do think and I don't know if this is true for you but I know for particularly a lot of women it becomes really difficult to be able to articulate what we want. Yeah. And actually saying no and putting in boundaries can be some of the hardest things to do.

Yeah. Because it's all about people pleasing and putting aside our own feelings for others. Exactly. And also. Yeah, obviously being aware of other people's feelings. Obviously that's important. Exactly.

So, you know, it all swings and roundabouts. Anyway, over to you. Well, yeah, I was just going to say one of the moments that stood out for me, this is when we were on holiday recently. I don't think I've talked about this on the show, but there was a moment when we were staying. Should I tell the story about our son and the woman? Yeah, I think it's interesting.

Yeah, yeah. I thought it was great, but it was also, like, embarrassing. I had really complex feelings about it. Yeah, I know. It's great. But so, you know, he figured out he'd go up to the bar and just, like, order snacks and whatever, you know, because he figured that out, the place we were staying at.

And there was this woman there and she was, like, an older lady and, like, every time you'd speak to her, she'd say that out, the place we were staying at. And there was this woman there and she was like an older lady and like every time you'd speak to her she'd say like the opposite of what you were saying and it's like fucking just stop being, why are you doing this? Why are you being like, I've just been like, hey, it's a nice day and it's like, well, is it? You know, because yesterday. And it's like, hey, fucking shut up.

I don't want to engage in any of that. To be fair, he didn't say any of that to her. No, obviously I didn't. I was just like, great, good talk or whatever. But anyway, son goes up to the bar and I order him some fries or whatever. And she happened to be there and I said something like, you know, I found out the secret of parenting, it's like 80% snacks, you know, like keeping them fit.

And nothing comment. It doesn't mean anything, you know. It's just like, ah, you know, kids, you've got to feed them or whatever. She was like, well, I think, you know, it's actually good for kids to be hungry, you know, and it's good to have them have that feeling of like knowing what it's like to be hungry and go hungry. And I'm like, what? Like, and before I could get into like, well, that's obviously not true because, you know, I have a background in education. If kids aren't hungry, they can't function properly. They can't think it's a good

for brain development. It's good for them to stay focused at whatever. I didn't get to say any of that. I just kind of, somebody else came along and it just kind of split apart. And I'm like, ah, fuck, I wish I should have said something. Right. But I didn't, it just kind of moved on. And then after I left with our son, I was just like, Hey, in not, not this language, but I was like, that's bullshit. Don't worry about that. Like that woman's just, she doesn't know what she's talking about. And then later at dinner, she was sitting like five metres away and he was facing her and he's like, Mum, and he points, he's like, that's the woman who said kids should be hungry.

She said, and I'm like, no, no, and he's like, no, because you said also that she said that kids should be hungry and that's not true. And I'm like, yeah, no, you're right, that is not true. I am just mortified, like dying inside. And like 100% she heard it. There is no way she didn't hear it. Oh, God, it was so awkward.

And to be fair, she didn't talk to me again. No, and we had to sit there for the rest of the dinner. We were literally like half a metre from her. And it's like three-course meal. But also I'm like, yeah, she was just talking shit. Like you're allowed to, you know, stand up for yourself and that's fine, you know. Yeah, he's so short.

He's got a really deep sense of self which I love about him and I sometimes find very challenging because I'm a people pleaser. I was raised to be incredibly polite at all times, apologising even if people bump into me, just like pleases and thank yous and being just incredibly conscious of any impact at all that I may have on anyone around me. And so having someone totally different to me like you and then like your son where it's so much more about standing up for yourself and everything, I really admire, but then I still don't know exactly how I feel about it

because I also think having respect for your elders is also important. I know but I completely agree but also I feel like in that specific scenario like she was wrong and he was right and it's okay to be like, hey, that's not true, you know. Because remember as I said like I wish I had said something, you know, at the time. Yeah. And it kind of like it was also like it took me a moment to be like,

what? Like that's obviously not true. How do I even like unpack this? Like, you know? Yeah. Because often you just let it go and you're like, whatever. No, it's so interesting, isn't it? Because also I think part of it for our son was just that he wanted

to have a snack. Yeah. And he couldn't understand why someone would say you should be hungry when you're hungry. Yeah, and obviously it's a thing of like you're not going to have like five bananas like half an hour before dinner. But just this, it wasn't framed like that. It was like kids should be hungry throughout the day and whatever.

And it's like get fucked. You know what you're talking about. Anyway, I just, yeah, it is. Walk into the fucking ocean. Jake, jeez. All right. Let's all sit back and relax. Everyone has a different opinion.

I should have said put stones in your pockets and walk into the ocean. That is not funny. Oh, my God. That is an awful thing to say. Anyway, it's about finding that balance, isn't it? It certainly is. Because the challenge for us in parenting our son is to mitigate some of that so he can still have that dirty cents of self but be polite.

And not have to be like, you know, yell across the room about a person. Correct. You're right. As like an adult, obviously that is not an acceptable thing to do. But, yeah, I loved it. It's interesting, isn't it, because, yeah, it's about knowing your kid. Yeah. And because on the flip side of it, you might have a child

that would never raise their voice and speak up and what you want them to do is build that internally in them. So it's about their personalities and, yeah. So I think he's lucky he has both of us. I think also you don't, you're not as like, you're not meek at all. Like you let a lot of things slide until like you don't. I found. I've found. I've seen like I'm not going to say specifically but I've seen you make people like literally cry.

It's terrible. No, it was great. And every time you've done it, I'm like that was completely justified and I'm glad you did it. Look, for me, I like to listen. I like to listen a lot to see why people feel the way they do and then I pick my battle. Exactly, yeah.

If I think I've got something valuable to say that might genuinely change the way they think, I will say something. Yes, you're really good at like talking to somebody like you're agreeing with them but you like twist it on them. And I watch you do it. Like I've seen you do it like hundreds of times where you've talked to somebody and they'll say something insane and i'm like huh that's and i and i my reaction is to like say nothing or like fire up but you

can be like oh that's interesting because and then you'll somehow like i don't even know how you do it it's like watching somebody like play 4d chess and you see the other person like agreeing and then slowly they're like agreeing with the thing that they don't agree with. I think you do it to me too. I'm like, yeah, I do. I do like this mop you got me for my birthday. I guess this is what I asked for. Do you know, I don't know why I'm, I don't know why I have that particular skill. I think part of it was my dad sat on a lot of committees for a lot of years. He had a real skill with doing that. But I also think sometimes it's about really listening to someone

because often they just want their opinion validated and they want to be heard. So it's about making it clear that you've heard what they've said but then also trying rather than coming at them aggressively. I just don't think we change people's minds and hearts by coming at them aggressively. Yeah, I think you're 100% right. But I do think building a sense of like, I hear what you're saying and I see where your perspective has come from, but have you ever thought about it from this way? Like for instance, there was an example where someone was going on a rant about how, you know, kids these days and gender,

basically, you know, that kind of vibe. And I sat there listening to it and I was mortified, but I just kept listening. And then in the end, I tried to explain it to them. I said, I see where you're coming from because it is very different from what you would have grown up with, you know, and change is really difficult to wrap your head around. I saw this unfold. I watched it happen. As soon as you started talking, I'm like, I know exactly what this is. But then I kind of said, but then also I know as a teacher, but also as friends who I have or high school teachers would say that this conversation, people who are transgender or non-binary have always been with us. And by denying those identities exist, we're then causing a lot of incredibly painful mental

health issues. And maybe your daughter and in your family isn't non-binary and has never had a question about their gender, but that doesn't mean that your neighbour might not or that if she ever has kids, maybe her kids might. And I think it's a really valuable thing. It saves lives. Yeah, absolutely it does. It's really important to think about.

Yeah, anyway, that was sort of how I got there. I don't know. Yeah, anyway. I loved it. It was great to watch. I enjoyed it. Yeah, and it was interesting to watch actually because I don't know if I really changed their minds completely but I do think I saw

in their face a kind of. That they were annoyed. No, no. I saw them kind of thinking, like pausing because I think sometimes people say comments and they don't expect to be challenged. And I think it's also just stuff that they hear. You know, it's like Reid. It's like, oh, everybody's got a different gender.

Yeah, right. Back in my day it was bloody bleh. It's like, yeah, was it? Great. Yeah, it's sort of and, you know, it's that sweeping statement that they make because they've never had it personally touch their family or the people they know. And I think that it changes everything once it does.

But what that does do, the reason it changes, this is what I'm getting at, the reason that it changes people's hearts and minds is because it's empathy. Yeah. Because someone they love or someone they know is affected. Yeah. And so the way to change the way people think is to start from empathy. And so that's what I try and do in those conversations is

like somehow elicit empathy. Yeah. For people that maybe they previously had never thought about. I think that's how like in Australia at least and probably the place in the world where this has happened where like gay marriage was passed was because at this point not people were comfortable enough to come out and be openly gay. And so everybody knows somebody who's gay.

I mean I would be shocked if somebody, like, didn't know anybody. That would be baffling to me. Yeah, exactly. And so people are like, yeah, no, my neighbour's gay or my niece is gay or whatever. And they're like, yeah, thank you, man, give a shit, whatever. You know, because they see it as like actual people and I think that's slowly changing with non-binary people as well where people, you know,

who present that way are becoming well more open and you see it more and then I think people realize oh these are normal regular people so yeah exactly anyway I probably used all the wrong words there but I think I got my point across or I didn't anyways it's sub-turtles Claire did you know that I did I keep hearing this phrase around it's my birthday month. It's not Subturtles. No, it's Subturtles. And last week the Queen died and Subturtles was cancelled. And this week also I've run out of time.

Subturtles will continue next week where I pick something Ninja Turtles to talk about. God damn it, Claire. God damn everything. Subturtles is an absolute shambles. I know. I did it on purpose. I did it on purpose because I didn't want to talk about goddamn Ninja Turtles.

It's interesting because – and also I need to stress this. I'm upset and I feel like the only way perhaps that I could be soothed is by people leaving a wonderful five-star review for this podcast. Yes, please, please leave us a review. Even if you have before, we would love you to really read them. Yeah, because often it disappears or whatever or you can do it twice. I don't know. You can do it in app, your podcast app of choice.

This is from The Running Joke who says, Five stars, first of all, thank you. Probably a pretty good podcast. A couple of wonderful people sharing their thoughts on a range of things. Would recommend. Wow, thank you. I only got a few more reviews to read out, so any more that you put in, I'll definitely be reading them out.

Don't even worry about that. Unlike The Weekly Planet, which has so many to read out. Oh, God. It's a more popular show. Oh, right. Well, as I've said before, this little corner of the internet has the best listeners in the whole world. That's because.

So if you are here, that's because you are top quality. I also want to point out that's because I'm filtering out lunatics because to get to my podcast, you have to get through the YouTube channel, right? You have to go to the YouTube channel and go, I like this enough to go to my podcast, you have to get through the YouTube channel, right? You have to go to the YouTube channel and go, I like this enough to go to a podcast. And everybody on YouTube, not everybody, but crazy people, Claire. And then on the podcast, slightly less crazy people, regular podcast. On this podcast, even less successful.

Oh, yeah. You know, it's like straining a lemon. All the pulp is gone. This is sort of related to what we're talking about. I saw it was a statistic it's like someone was complaining about it. I was like, why are there so many transgender and non-binary people now? They never used to be. It's like why do you think that is?

Do you think maybe there wasn't like the education or the information or people weren't coming out like presenting that way decades past? And illegal, exactly. Why do you think there's more now? and they were persecuted. And illegal, exactly. Like why do you think there's more now? It's not just like, oh, cool, I'm going to make my life more difficult for a time and, you know, because it's cool and I want to, you know, it's ridiculous. Ridiculous idiot point by an idiot.

Anyways. He's really on fire today. You've been super harsh. You told someone to walk into the ocean with rocks in their pockets. Yeah, you know what? I hope they do. I stand by that. That is a terrible thing to say.

Anyway, if you are lovely like me and not horrible like James, I'm joking, you can also write in to justapotatjim.com. We love to hear your recommendations just like Ish has. Hey, Claire and James, hope you're well rested from your holes. Having two kids myself, holidays ain't really holidays, and I often need a holiday after my holiday. You ain't wrong. We hear that.

Anyway, enough of my moaning. On to my suggestible. I saw this fantastic show on BBC this week called Capture. It starts off as police CCTV surveillance witness an attack by an army officer attacking a woman at a bus stop, but it all is not what it seems. Without giving too much away, it goes on a windy road with government clandestine meddling using technology.

James will like where it goes. There's two seasons, six episodes a pop. The second season gets proper crazy with the plot mixing politics and tech. Now, I have to say I actually have recommended this show before. Oh, this person's like me. But a couple of years ago. Yeah. What's it called again?

And I wanted to remind people of it because it's excellent. What's it called again? The Capture. Yeah. I don't think I remember this. It's really good. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's a really good one.

If you love a crime, Drown Bebes from As You Know I Do. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, no, I remember you watching this as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really, really good. So thanks, Ish, for reminding me of it. This is definitely my favourite show of the year. I was hooked from start to finish and watched both seasons

in a couple of days. Anyway, off to feed the monsters. I mean my son and daughter. Laters, Ish from the UK. Nice. Thanks, mate. Only two seasons, is that right? Yeah, just two seasons.

I just really loved it. So if you're after a proper sort of BBC crime drama, highly recommend. Yeah, so thank you. Thank you. Rock Hollings is always writing this week's episode. Or was it me this week? No, it's still Hollings. It's still doing it?

Yeah, correct. Okay, well, thank you, Hollings. Thank you to me for just being part of it. Being an everyday hero who's said some pretty mean things today on this episode. Yeah, I know. I probably shouldn't be so mean. But at the same time. It's part of your personality.

Who's going to stop me? And your charm. Does anybody want me to change though really at this point? Is anybody thinking that I'm going to do that as well? Look, I've known you since I was 19 and to be fair, you've been relatively the same. I like to think that I've got slightly better. You've got greyer, that's for sure.

That's certainly true, Claire. You have got a slick haircut this week. I'm loving it. Fast haircut they're called. A fast haircut. Fast, yeah, because it's shorter on the side so I'm going faster. I'm faster. Like more streamlined?

Exactly. Is that actually a thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right. I see. Okay, well, that's been us this week. Kids are really quiet. We should check on them.

They are. We should check on them. They're monsters, as Ish said. All right, thank you and talk to you soon. Bye. Bye. Hey, folks. It's Mark Maron from WTF. I travel all over North America doing stand-up, and it's always good to know Airbnb is an option when I'm away from home. But if you're away from home, why not take your own place and Airbnb it? Airbnb your whole home to make some extra cash.

Or if you have a spare room that's not in use, just Airbnb that. Whether you could use extra money to cover some bills or for something a little more fun, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca slash host.