Sword and Scale - Episode 189

Episode Date: June 14, 2021

Residents of the Marpole neighborhood in Vancouver, British Columbia suddenly found themselves double-checking their deadbolts when an unidentified killer senselessly murdered two valuable members of the community. 64-year-old Dianna Mah-Jones, and her husband, 68-year-old Richard Jones were discovered in their home on September 26th, 2017. It was a massacre inside, one that law enforcement officials would never forget.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Sort and scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences Listener discretion is advised Imagine a worst horror movie and it couldn't do it justice in terms of the horrific nature and violence that was inflicted upon this couple upon this couple. Welcome to Season 8, Episode 189 of there's almost always a reason that a human being decides to kill another human being. It's part of our social contract. Without that social contract there would be no such thing as civilization. Our institutions would

collapse into chaos and anarchy. Even animals, which we tend to see through the lens of moral superiority, don't kill their own kind without an actual reason. So what if I told you that some human beings kill for absolutely no reason at all? Stay tuned. Marpole is a neighborhood in Vancouver, British Columbia. It's a mixed population of just under 25,000 people, including approximately 44% Chinese, 31% European, and a mixed bag of other various ethnic groups. You could almost consider it a small town based on its population, but in reality, it totals only two square miles. More than half of Marpol's residents weren't born in Canada, making it a real mishmash

of immigrants largely from Eastern Asia. For the wealthy West Side of Vancouver, it's the most affordable area, and it's safe too. At least, that's how residents saw their beloved Marpol prior to September 26th, 2017. Homicide detectives are investigating what appears to be two suspicious deaths. Investigators have arrived on scene police are here aggressively canvassing the area detectives asking the public to hone in on a specific timeline. Now first,

the murder victim Richard Jones, we have new video stills as you mentioned of him seen last Tuesday or around last Tuesday police won't say where the footage is from. He had his mobility device with him as you can see he was last seen wearing the same clothes. 68-year-old Richard Jones was a resident of the Marpole community along with his wife 64-year-old Diana Mah Jones. Together they had a cute dark gray single family home with a suite that sometimes rented out as an Airbnb. Diana was in great shape. Even at 64 years old, she was still actively practicing and performing

with her tap dancing team, Rasmus Tap. She had been dancing with the team for 20 years. We loved her. She was so vibrant and how young and how enthusiastic she was and how beautiful she was. I'm so inspired by her independence, her braveness, how fit she was. While Richard was retired and had several debilitating illnesses, Diana worked as an occupational therapist, and she made a name for herself in the field, winning several awards over the years. Most of us take for granted that we can glance down and comfortably read a book, prepare a meal, or watch our stuff while walking.

However, one GF strong patient with muscular dystrophy couldn't see past the rigid collar she had to wear to hold her head upright. To help her gain more independence in performing her daily activities, she was referred to occupational therapy for assistance. That's where she met Diana Mah Jones. Diana literally invented a new type of collar for this patient to wear, so that she would have more mobility while maintaining adequate neck support from the collar itself. When she came, we tried a variety of the commercial collars of foam and wire, but they were just too rigid or didn't provide her with enough support. So in the middle of the night, it came to me that we should try air as a dynamic component.

Diana's dedication to her patients didn't stop with her inflatable collar invention. She went the extra mile with every facet of her career. Diana Madjones has demonstrated creativity and innovative problem solving throughout her career, and not just in the area of assistive devices. To get the attention of clients receiving education about managing spinal cord conditions, Diana wrote and choreographed a poetic rap number called Save the Shoulder. Sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss best, you know what feels just right. Work it hard through the day. Don't lose it through the night." She's even produced a successful fashion show with models from the BC Paraplegic Association titled Fashion Meets Function. I don't know anybody who epitomizes what I consider to be a healthcare hero,

Morgan Diana. A healthcare hero. She was a cherished member of her community and her workplace. Her willingness to write and perform an enthusiastic rap for her patients makes it obvious that she was the kind of person who set the bar very high for her peers in her career field. Diana's husband Richard, on the other hand, hid in the background of the couple's life together. He stayed home much of the time. His disability has prevented him from going out and participating in activities like Diana enjoyed. The couple's death was unnerving for the community.

There were no more details given to the public other than the victim's names and the determination that their deaths had been, quote, unquote, suspicious. No one knew what to assume. The only individuals who had any information about this discovery were law enforcement, and the person who made the original 911 call on September 26th And the one that's worked down there is a nice in a front pathway, it's in a plastic color, right? It comes to its point, what kind of meeting go around back as there's also a hatchet on the front yard with a drop.

Like there's a thick obstacle, it's hard to think about, it's like this bottom of a trauma. I hope I'm overreacting. I hope it's just a drop. I don't know. But the't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But the collar was right. Upon brief inspection, the outside of the small home showed obvious signs that something

was not right inside. You don't normally find kitchen knives and hatchets in the yards of homes and neighborhoods with low crime rates. Even in dangerous neighborhoods, a hatchet is kind of odd, right? Yet there they sat, right on the sidewalk, a small orange kitchen knife. The kind you might grab to cut an apple.

Nearby, a hatchet was found nestled in the grass. It had blood on the blade. The wooden porch steps leading up to the front door sported crisp, bloody shoe prints. The first officer on scene opened the door to the residents with his gun drawn. He yelled out to anyone who might be inside to alert them of law enforcement presence and then he slipped. He slipped on the bloody floor of the kitchen right inside the entrance. It was as if the floor had been painted in the rusty liquid. We want to know who did this and we want to hold them accountable.

And we are going to knock on doors. We are going to go back to your house and ask you for video if you haven't. You haven't had an opportunity to contact us. What you may think by reviewing your video that's not important. You may just see some cars going by. You may see some kids on a bike. I'm not sure what you're seeing. What we are asking you is you call us. Let us have a look at the video and let us decide whether or not it's important.

The first assumption when something like this happens to an older couple in a safe area is that it's a murder suicide. Diana and her husband Richard were opposites in many ways. Perhaps he snapped that day and ended both their lives. The knife, the hatchet, the footprints, and the bloodiness of the crime scene pretty much killed that theory though. and the bloodiness of the crime scene pretty much killed that theory though. All people could do was listen to the scarce information that police were releasing. That Fritchard hadn't done it, and these people were a normal innocent couple. Might another household become a target? It's very rare.

A double homicide in our city is rare. A homicide that's not connected to the criminal lifestyle, I would say is even more rare. As far as anyone knew, a killer was on the loose. A small yet highly populated community like Marpol made a great fish and a barrel location for someone hunting for victims. I tend to leave the house with windows opening, especially in the summer. I will definitely keep things closed. And what I'm walking out usually don't bring a flashlight, but I think I will.

In fact, you guys saw a man with a golf club. Everyone does have a heightened feel of anxiety, but on the other hand, they also do know their neighbors, and they are watching out for each other. If anything, they'll probably solidify the community-minded nature of our community to be not just vigilant in the short term, but also to continue to look out for each other. Two concerning facts that law enforcement faced in the first few days of the investigation

drove the stakes sky high for this crime. The Jones-Kia-Soul originally missing from the scene was found parked just one street away. Diana's body was not robbed of her jewelry, and the home had not been robbed of its electronics and other valuables. The killer appeared to have trumped all throughout the massive amount of blood on the floor, helping themselves to a snack from the Jones's fridge, then exited through the back door, leaving bloody footprints on the steps.

This suggested to Vancouver police that either this person had killed before, or this was a very personal attack. Alex Safety is always new to you for us. It's a top priority for our department right now. This file is our priority. We've got lots of men and women working around the clock to solve this crime. We haven't been able to create a,

to discover a clear motive in this event. We don't know if it's targeted, we don't know if it's a random act. And that's why we're coming forward and just reminding the public to remain vigilant, report suspicious activity. To us, let us filter it out. Let us decide whether or not something suspicious.

But if you see something that just doesn't feel right in your gut or you feel that your safety is at risk, call 911 immediately. The following month brought an onslaught of Vancouver Police Department employees with over 240 people deployed to Canvas over a thousand properties. Video surveillance from neighbors, home home security cameras and footage from businesses had to be scoured for any small crumb of evidence that may lead investigators to a suspect. And they were desperate. You know, you're thinking that this is someone that's had a history, a violence, perhaps, you know, they've been cross paths with the police because of mental health issues, nothing.

It took an entire month, but soon they had a breakthrough. During the time spent processing the crime scene, and hundreds of hours spent reviewing surveillance footage, investigators made a connection. Remember that hatchet and the orange kitchen knife? Remember that hatchet and the orange kitchen knife? The lab test of DNA found on the orange kitchen knife and discovered a DNA profile that did not match either of the victims. It didn't match any person stored in the database either. All they knew was that the killer was a man. Once investigators got inside the home, they found a baseball cap too, one that

didn't belong to Diana or Richard. Most importantly, investigators determined based on the barcode still stuck on the hatchet that it had been purchased from a common hardware chain called Canadian tire. And the barcode from that was still on the on the hatchet was was identified. And they were able to go and identify the very store the Canadian started tire store that it was purchased from. Once Vancouver police were able to lock down the exact store location, they started watching security footage from not just the days prior to the attack, but weeks prior as well.

Over 100 private citizens and businesses, including Canadian Tire, provided surveillance video to the police and that enabled the police to develop timelines before and after the murders. September 13th is where things got interesting in the security footage from Canadian tire. Investigators noticed a man that peaked their interest. Nothing was particularly alarming about the guy in the footage, except that he was purchasing a hatchet that looked eerily similar to the one found at the crime scene. As the officer watched the tape, it soon became clear that there was cause for alarm. This kid wasn't just buying a hatchet. He purchased a baseball cap and gloves too.

The cap was exactly the one found inside the Jones home, logo, and all. This purchase was made two weeks prior to the murders. Shockingly, when investigators began to review home security camera footage around the location the Jones car was abandoned, they saw the same kid. The footage showed him walking briskly around the area, his hands, in his pockets, a backpack on his shoulders. Police made it a priority to track this guy down and get his DNA no matter what it took. The way they planned to obtain this sample though was kind of shady, but this is Canada we're talking about.

They do things a little differently. Police set up a sting at a local grocery store. A female police officer dressed in plain clothes approached the suspect and asked for help with her water bottle. He obliged and bingo. They had his DNA. He was prepared to listen to some young women that approached him, was very friendly and it's amazing what some guys will do if they're asked. After lab testing, the unknown male DNA profile found inside the Jones home finally had a match. After one long month, the Vancouver Police Department finally had their prime suspect in custody.

25-year-old Rocky Rambo, way Namcam. Can you guess who his parents were big fans of? Yeah. The old Stallone Myster. Otherwise, no one has the Italian stallion or simply just sly. They probably should have called him Yoda though. You'll find out why in just a second

when you hear his voice. But law enforcement had officers sitting for an eternity in idol police cruisers surveilling the Marpol area. This was it. They had so much damning evidence against Cam already. They figured it was a done deal. They had been sitting in their set for however many hours

and they were thinking, okay, this is time to call it a day or a night and there he was, right in front of them. I haven't actually spoken to them, but I remember the investigators being elated. Like it was like, this is the break we were looking for, oh, along. Peter, how are you? I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hurt you. It's good to meet you.

How are you today? I guess you had better days. Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure. You're more key, are you? What should I call you? Is that the name you like? I like you.

Yeah. Okay, I'll call you that. Call me Leah, of course. Already, this is the most polite interrogation I've ever heard. Rocky had been sitting in an office chair in a small interview room for half an hour before Leah came in to offer some hospitality to her suspect. I've come in to talk to you about what's going on, because I'm sure you're wondering what's going on because I'm sure you're wondering what's happening And there's a lot happening of course in an investigation like this

Pretty often there's a lot of people that we need to talk to and we need to clarify their involvement of any and Through some of these things So let me ask you first off, we've got coffee on route. So, how do you like your coffee? You don't like coffee? Oh my god, you are not a millennial. Ah, good try. That joke was lost on Rocky.

Awkward. Would you like something else? I don't want something to be. If some food, what would you like to eat? Something that I can eat. Like a sandwich? If I can, sure. Sure you can, what would you like?

Anything. Just sandwich is fine. It is sandwich like a chicken sandwich? Sure. Okay, we can arrange that. Yeah, make sure you let me know if there's anything you need for your comfort today. Like the bathroom or something. Eat or house your health.

Comfort? How is his health? Canadian interrogation rooms really feel like a different dimension. Vancouver police thought it best to keep the information to a minimum at first with this guy. That's the most logical tactic, right? Why show your cards to a suspect right out of the gate? At this point in time, Rocky, Rambo, Wayne Nam-Kam hadn't been told why he had been brought in.

When you were dealt with this morning by the police this afternoon, I guess, how did they treat you? Surprise, of course. Yeah, you're surprised. Okay, that makes sense to me. So, I'm gonna get some sandwiches going. So, do you have any understanding of why you're here today? Yeah, what's your understanding of the reason

you're here today? They said I'm a restaurant rest floor. Two thousand. Where? Yeah, do you know anything about that? The name of it. Did you know those people? No, you don't know them. Okay, good.

Oh, no, not good. After 600,000 Canadian taxpayer dollars had already been spent on this investigation. Vancouver police certainly didn't want to suspect who refused to talk. A perpetrator who doesn't confess usually pleads not guilty, which takes the case to trial, only costing more money and taking way more time. Yeah, the reason that you're here, Rocky, is that, you know, you're one of many people that we've talked to. And there's been times when we've seen you in the neighborhood. So, we knew that you lived nearby. And so that's one of the reasons why we're talking to you here,

among a few other things as well. But, you know, it's helpful to me to learn that you didn't you know those people. Here they are here. Do you recognize those folks? I have something to say. Yeah go ahead. I have nothing to say. Okay. All, so with regard to these people, are they familiar or neighborly with you? I don't want to talk about it. Okay. This guy was not stupid. He was on tour.

But Rocky Rambo had no prior criminal history, no significant experience with law enforcement whatsoever. How did he know to keep his mouth shut? Perhaps he listens to crime junkie? Are those two other ladies that are always talking about the patriarchy? In any case, he knew why he was there from the moment he was arrested. He knew he planned to say nothing, but why not get a free chicken sandwich out of the whole deal?

It was almost like this was a game to them. So yeah, I mean, I, um, these things they, you understand how police investigations work I'm sure. So that's what we're doing here today is just to find out what, you know, your involvement in this situation. If in fact, you have your involvement in this situation, if in fact you have any involvement in this situation. So if you know those people, it would be nice to hear an explanation of for that. If you don't know them, that's fine too. I'd just like to know what you, what your position is on that. What is it? Well, just about these people, I'm clear. Like, I would like to clear Miss Leah with the kindergarten teacher voice kept her cool for a long time.

She continued asking Rocky question after question trying to get something anything out of them. How was that sandwich? It's pretty good. We have a place right across the street in Sitalian and it's good. I don't like the sauce but look at that. So you said you didn't know that guy. What about the girl?

I'm afraid I'd never say I have nothing to say. Ehh, I know but... I have nothing to say. I have nothing to say. Okay. I have nothing to do, is say. Have you been inside this house? I don't want to talk about it. So is that a yes?

I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to say. I really have nothing to say. Rocky's responses told her one thing. This was not going to be an easy, open and shut case. You can imagine your worst horror movie and it couldn't do it justice in terms of the horrific nature and violence that was inflicted upon this couple. The scene inside the home was traumatizing.

Law enforcement officials remember smears of blood all over the lower walls and floors of the kitchen when they first entered. It was as if a wrestling match had occurred right in the middle of the floor amid the ocean of blood. There was a necklace found in the mess, most likely ripped off in the struggle. There was something odd about the blood spatter in this room though. There was plenty of blood on the lower half of the walls waste level, but there didn't seem to be any cast off.

Usually if an attacker is frantically swinging a blunt object, or for instance a hatchet found in the front yard, the weapon would pick up blood from the victim each time it made contact. The blood would then be flung from the weapon to the ceiling and upper wall area over and over as the weapon is swung in a downward arc. This meant only one thing. This attack was likely very calm and calculated. Each swing of the hatchet and each sharp stab was slow and steady. Diana, Ma Jones and her husband Richard were found in the bathroom. Officers opened the door and steam began to rapidly escape.

Through the fog, bodies could be made out. They were in the shower stall together. Richard, on his back in Diana, laying on top of him. The shower was on, hot water spraying onto Richard's lifeless face. He had suffered more than 100 sharp-force injuries. The medical examiner concluded that the injuries were a combination of stab wounds that were deeper than they were wide, slash wounds that were wider than they were deep, and quote, unquote, chop type wounds. Perhaps the most painful

realization officials had was the agony Richard Jones must have suffered during the attack. The majority of the hundred wounds to his body occurred before or around the time he died. Many of these injuries were on his legs. One grouping of wounds seemed to be evenly spaced, as if Rocky Rambo had chopped into this man's limb as he'd lay there, unable to move. Diana suffered far less than her husband, but her wounds were just as brutal. It seemed that Rocky chopped right into her neck with the hatchet, severing her corroded artery.

She bled out quickly. Diana's blood showed many blunt force injuries as well. Injuries that damaged her head, limbs, and chest area. She had a fractured nose and a broken rib. She would have fought to the end. It would have been like he'd been in a cat fight. No, she was, she was ferocious, but only ferocious when she had to be strong, like it was her strength and her toughness. That, so it would have been horrible, absolutely horrible. Vancouver police had Rocky Rambo waynam cams DNA, not only the baseball bat,

but underneath Diana's fingernails. After his arrest, his glasses were taken and nearly five weeks after he murdered these innocent people, he hadn't even wiped the speck of Diana's blood off the corner of his glasses. Rocky could kiss freedom, goodbye. The Canadian crown had a great case against him, even without a confession.

I want you to have an opportunity to address this, because I don't think it's really fair that we only know what's in that house. Okay. Very laughing. When we're in fair, we back to know what house was. What I'm saying is that right now, Rocky, we have done a thorough investigation about what happened in that house and you and I both know what happened in that house. I don't know actually if you haven't

tell me. Okay. Well Rocky I'm gonna show you some things today and I really hope and you know I hope that you'll make a promise to me. No, I don't make promise easy. Well, at least I don't think I'm ready here. Yeah, well, this was hairy out, because if maybe an easy promise to keep. Some promises are hard and some are easy. Yeah, I need to trust that person to do me a promise. But I'm sure you know, you're not my friend.

No, no, no, no one in this unit is my friend in Europe." Miss Leah was losing patience with Rocky. She could see that he was not going to budge after speaking with his lawyers. So she decided to make it perfectly clear that law enforcement had a fully developed case against him. He had no choice. So one thing that I was going to show you, this is a ball cap. Have you ever seen that before? Maybe. Tell me about it. I don't know.

How about those? Have you ever seen those gloves. I don't know. How about those? Have you ever seen those gloves? I have nothing to say about them. Are they in your apartment? They haven't finished their change, so I don't know. You probably threw them in the garbage. I can't know anything to say.

Okay. I'm doing this rocky to give you every opportunity in the world to come on board with me early Early in this investigation that I'm gonna show you Because I want you to look better than you look now Where are you laughing? I don't I don't look bad. I don't look good. Oh, I mean you don't look good. I promise you I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Good. Oh, I mean, you don't look good. I promise you, you don't.

Yeah. It looks terrible. After nine hours of interrogation, they got nothing. The answer given over and over again was, quote, I have nothing to say. Rocky knew where he was going. He knew he wasn't leaving the custody of Vancouver law enforcement. He did, of course, want to know what kind of amenities

his cell would have to offer. If you could hold me, I might speak to you in cell, right? OK. And I assume they will have measures right. Huh? They don't have measures right. Huh? They do.

Why? To stuff. What's your biggest concern? Hmm. I just want to know if it's enough control. If what? Conflugal or not? That was a very interesting thing. But I'm kind of sitting here and so at least I want some at least I will be very

I'm gonna say I don't know crying Wow what's the baddest that I don't know I'm gonna say that I don't You feel sad and you think you might be crying later? Maybe maybe Don't cry Well I don't know if you're here but you look confident so I may be crying I don't know

well it's your job to hold me here but I may face to but just not that important I do the laundry on the bed in your pants It's not that important. I did it on your own. On your bad new pass. You'll see this. But you got home for a while.

A long time. So I want to pay video games, but well, that's not much of a question. No, we don't have a lot of video games, Rocky. That's true. Two people were dead. Officer Leo had made it very clear to Rocky that the evidence pointed directly towards him, and yet he was worried about whether the mattress in his prison cell would be comfortable enough.

He already knew at this point that he was going to be there for a long time. It was clear to Vancouver police that Rocky Rambo, way-nam-cam, had no interest in helping them close this case quickly and cleanly. Several key pieces of evidence pointed right at Rocky. The DNA match found on the baseball cap, under Diana's fingernails, and on the hinge of Rocky's glasses placed him at the scene. The lab determined there was only a one in 630 quintillion chance that the unknown male DNA belonged to someone else.

There's a higher probability you'll be struck by lightning, by a lot. In fact, the probability that you'll be struck by lightning one single time in your life is 1 in 15,300. That's horrifying. The Canadian justice system, likely thought they had a 1 in 630 quintillion chance that Rocky Rambo would decide to confess to his crimes. It just seemed futile after nine long hours with Officer Leah. Once a suspect has a chance to speak to a lawyer, it's pretty much game over.

We know by now that lawyers prefer their clients not to divulge anything whatsoever. Rocky took that advice. That was until his defense attorneys decided to hire a psychologist to aid in the formation of a defense strategy. My name is Dr. Edward Shen. Dr. Shen is a clinical psychologist registered in British Columbia. I hold a private practice in Vancouver.

In my practice, I do see children for assessment purposes, but for adults, I mainly perform psychological therapy. So mainly I look at the client's experience in his early childhood or early adulthood and how they may have affected the way the client conducts himself today. When Rocky Rambo's defense team reached out to Dr. Shen for the psychological evaluation of their client, he approached the task as he does with any other client. There is, after all, a difference between psychology and forensic psychology. I was approached by the defense council of Mr. Kahn to make a few visits to him, because at the time he had already been remounded in the pre-Fraud Centre for close to two years,

with the purpose of understanding how this might work. There are many kinds of psychologists, and group that who are specifically trained to work with the legal system is known as forensic psychology. I happened to be not trained in forensic psychology. I'm trained as a clinical psychologist and my mission is to work with people who are afflicted with mental illness or emotional issues or even physical issues, but not strictly for the court purpose. Like Dr. Shen mentioned, Rocky had been sitting in custody of law enforcement for two years awaiting trial. At this point, with no confession and a definite trial on the horizon, the crown was hoping to lock Rocky away for a first-degree murder for a long time, or as long as Canada feels his fair. Which, I mean, it's Canada. Rocky Rambo had no connection to these people. He lived in the same neighborhood as they did, but didn't know them. He had no reason to kill them.

So by all accounts, this guy was a major danger to society. If he could snap at any moment and kill another he doesn't know his own triggers, or doesn't care, wouldn't he be a ticking time bomb if left to freely roam with the public? Regardless, Rocky's defense team hoped that this psychological evaluation would reveal some sort of strategy for the trial. They gave me a very brief overview of what Mr. Cam did, but both the Council and I preferred to make it that way, because I don't want to be biased by what the Council had already found about Mr. Can. I was kind of led to believe that I would not be asked to testify. I've always been very careful with this issue. I have had a few experiences in the past that after performing therapy with a client for months and then I realized that it turned out to be a court case and then I was asked to provide evidence for my clients. Now I tried my best to turn those cases

down because I did not function with the understanding or the preparedness to provide forensic evidence. So the way to go about it would have been different if I had known from the beginning. What my findings would have been will be used. Of course, Dr. Shen ended up testifying at Rocky's trial. He had successfully uncovered something about Rocky during his evaluation that the defense took and ran with. Defense counsel Glen Orris told the court, Cam suffered from a mental disorder at the time of the killings. He thought he was in a video game and within the game he attacked

and killed the couple. Of course, the first thing that I need to ask myself is Mr. Cam suffering from a mental illness was the out of touch with reality. Even during the first interview, I came to the conclusion that he wasn't out of touch with reality, meaning that he wasn't suffering from any form of psychotic illness. But given that, it makes it even harder to understand why he did what he did. And the rest of the time in our meetings was mainly devoted to trying to make sense of his behavior. Defense says Cam has no prior history of violence. I believe the evidence will show no motive,

no prior connection between Cam and the victims. He's unable to explain why he did these acts. There does not appear to be logical explanations for what he did in the house outside of a game. Just recently, we've been seeing more and more advanced tech and gaming. The kind of technology we were hoping for 20 years ago when we were busy blowing air into our Nintendo 64 cartridges.

Things like advanced artificial intelligence, image recognition, and the introduction of virtual reality, which is pretty scarily realistic these days. Have already begun to change the way kids grow up. Rocky Rambo wasn't playing any crazy virtual reality games back in 2017 though. His vice was a game called Skyrim. I want to pay video games, but well, that's not much of a choice. No, we don't have a lot of video games, Rocky. That's true. In Mr. Kams case, he acknowledged that he had been spending a lot of time playing video games since his early teenage. And there was a lengthy period of time when he spent almost 13 hours per day on video games.

13 hours a day is about twice what a diligent full-time Twitch streamer spends playing video games. Humans need to survive, you know, like with balanced diets, fluids, bathroom breaks, sleep, social interaction, and a couple other things that I forget. But it's hard to do those things when you're glued to a gaming chair for 13 hours a day. For those of you unfamiliar with the game's Skyrim, it's an open-world RPG. It's a single-player game in which players create a character to embark on quests within a larger narrative. The soundtrack to this game is iconic, recognizable nearly everywhere to those well-versed in popular RPGs.

It's a fun game. A player can choose between melee weapons, bows and arrows, and magic. One player reviewed the game on Google and stated vehemently, quote, Man, I love this game so much. From the moon and back, I love this game. In fact, if there were three things I would bring if I were stuck on a desert island, this game would be one of them. It's a magical game.

Two addicting for us to comprehend. It's also important to note that this game is long. You can play for hundreds of hours and never run out of side quests. That's exactly what Rocky Rambo did after moving to Vancouver from Calgary. He had an economics degree but was unable to find work in Calgary, so he found a place to rent in the Marple area of Vancouver to search for better opportunities. It takes time, doesn't it? I heard some people have been like two years to find a job they could do and my luck experiences are not very good. Two years to find a job? Sounds like a justification for wasting month upon month playing Skyrim and spending daddy's money. I still have money.

Oh that's good. How do you have money? I was sadly saying it's my money. It's my parents' money. Oh, okay. From what I gathered, because I also interviewed his family members. Mr. Kim grew up in Hong Kong, and his upbringing was not that different from those people in Hong Kong. His behavior shocked everybody in his family. Growing up in Hong Kong meant Rocky's parents both had long work hours, given that the city is so expensive to live in.

This left Rocky in a siblings to fend for themselves. And Rocky happens to be quite an introvert, so he didn't have a lot of friends. In fact, he was teased quite a bit in school because of its name. Like many city kids, Rocky found solace in comic books and video games. There are no green pastures or verdant woods to roam in the heart of Hong Kong. Looking at photos of the city, may give even a born and raised New Yorker feelings of claustrophobia.

This favored pastime followed Rocky into adulthood. He played a lot of violent games in which you get points for having slain a certain character and in order for you to combat that character you of course need weapons and you need to purchase those weapons in the game and after you've completed killing a character of course you would have used up quite a bit of your strength and then you need to replenish the strength either by planish, the strength either by buying more strength or to eat certain objects, fruits, nutritious items to regain your strength. One member of Rocky's Defense Council spent an entire weekend playing Skyrim specifically just to see if he could make the argument that the game played a role in triggering this violent crime.

He was able to identify certain scenarios in those games that are very similar to the way that Mr. Cam contacted the crime. It's important to mention though that there's very little scientific evidence to back up to claim that violent video games can cause players to act violently over time. Dr. Shen was simply tasked with procuring some sort of explanation for these murders, even if it was just a theory. There has been evidence that playing video games would change the wiring of the brain. That the way these sign-es are arranged becomes different.

And we have proof for that not just on video games, but the proof is that every day experience would change the way our brain is wired. When we hear about things changing the wiring of the brain, we tend to freak out a little bit. But in reality, our brains are changing constantly, forming a new habit even as simple as making your bed each morning can change the wiring of your brain, so to speak.

There's no question that playing 13 to 15 hours of video games every single day for months on end could begin to affect someone in a psychologically negative way. A mystic came to the Canadian Tire which is a store in Canada and he bought articles and items that he eventually used at the crime scene. So that suggests some kind of premeditation or planning. What is truly intriguing about Mr. Kemp's case is that gradually he was able to remember quite a bit of detail as to what he did at the crime scene. So he retained some accurate memory

of his behavior. But I do believe that he has very little clue as to why he did them. This was two weeks before the murders. On the day of the attack, September 26, 2017, Diana returned home from work in the evening. She prepared to attend what would be her final dance practice with her tap team, followed by a shopping trip to Costco. Neighbors' video surveillance showed her white Kia soul pulling into her parking spot at almost exactly 8pm that evening. Meanwhile, Rocky Rambo was waiting in the bushes, hiding. Video surveillance had already captured him about half an hour earlier, walking in the direction of the Jones house, with his very heavy looking backpack. According to his own testimony, his first public confession to these murders, Rocky remembers seeing Diana carrying groceries into her house from her car.

The trunk was left open, there were still groceries to be brought in, so Rocky knew she'd have to come back outside. While he hid behind a tree, he pulled the hatchet and pocket knife out of his backpack while Diana walked back outside to grab the rest of her groceries. Right as she began to open the door and go inside, Rocky charged her and forced his way into the house where he then murdered her. Here members, that she wouldn't stop yelling, so he claims he choked her with his hands until she stopped, then stabbed her and cut her throat for good measure.

You know, just to make sure she was dead. He heard a sound from around back and encountered Richard. He began stabbing him with the pocket knife over and over. When that didn't seem to kill this poor man, Rocky chopped him in the neck with the hatchet. Then he dragged Diana's body from the living room to the kitchen and he tied one of each of the victim's legs to a chair while he unscrewed

the kitchen light bulb and made sure the blinds on the windows obscured any visibility into the house. He then dragged both bodies to the shower, turned it on high heat, shut the door and perused the home, picking up $30, some keys, and some other clutter. Rocky even had a snack, a peach, some milk, and a few bananas for the road. Rocky was then captured on surveillance footage driving Diana's key a soul, ultimately parking it a few blocks away. He claims he was jolted back to reality during this drive and realized he had done something terrible. He threw many

of the things he took from the Jones home into a dumpster during this drive. After parking the car, Rocky tossed the keys into the garden on his walk home. During his trial, the prosecution asked Rocky Rambo, one very important question. When police arrested you in November of 2017, you knew you had killed Mr. and Mrs. Jones, correct? Rocky's response was yes. This doesn't have to be the only thing that we think of you. Do you understand that? That there's still hope and there's still a chance for you to make something good come out of this? Your family's watching what you do from here forward. Your grandmother's watching what you do

here forward. Come on Rocky you've got to do the right thing. I don't understand how this is difficult. It's very simple. It's very easy, actually. There is only one right thing to do. I have nothing to say. Hmm. You know Rocky, I can see there, and I can feel that you are feeling something.

I can see that you're emotional. Why aren't you taking this chance to at least express remorse? Maybe today you're not ready to talk about the whole ugly story, but at least say you're sorry. For what? You're an animal. Here's the translation of Rocky's Cantonese mumblings. Dr. Shen has a theory about what happened to Rocky Rambo's mind during the planning and execution of his crimes.

It certainly doesn't excuse his behavior, but it was a theory that was approved by the Canadian Crown to be presented by the defense during trial. For the purpose of this case alone, Dr. Shen came up with the term gaming consciousness. It was truly out of this case that the term was born, but I just simply put two words together with the purpose of explaining what's on my mind. It wasn't my intention to coin a new term for a new condition. We have first to understand the word consciousness, because this is a very elusive word and it's not easy to understand. A lot of people would take consciousness to mean awareness or thinking or even the thoughts they were thinking, but actually consciousness comes prior to our thoughts. It's our consciousness that determines how we think and what we think.

Now, the issue with making a diagnosis of dissociative disorder is that the client has little or no control over the switch in mental state. So the dissociation somehow comes across as something that just happened to the client. Mr. Cam somehow, in my impression, had the ability to drift in and out of that state at will. This case was highly confusing to everyone involved. Rocky admitted on the stand that he had murdered these innocent people, but he, to this day, claims he doesn't know why. Unfortunately, up to this day, he's still a mystery.

And because it is, it remains a mystery. It makes it very hard to try to predict whether he might do it again. After finding Rocky Rambo way Namcam guilty of first-degree murder, the Canadian crown sentenced him to life in prison with the possibility of parole after only 25 years. This was a notably merciful sentence, and again, not surprising for Canada. Well, that's not the result we were hoping for.

It's based on the circumstances of the offense, the nature of the crime, and the lack of an explanation for why Mr. Kim committed these murders. So it will be 2042 before he can apply for parole, and as Madam Justice Drill pointed out, there's no guarantee that he will get parole. I think I would agree that he is a danger to society. At this point, it's indisputable that technology is taking over our lives quicker than we can say TikTok.

Things have changed so drastically in the past two decades, faster than technology has ever advanced before. Twenty years is not a long time at all. A mere drop in the ocean of human existence. In 2001, iTunes was introduced in the beginning of the year, followed by the very first iPod later in October. These were new and exciting advancements in the tech world. Some of you all even watched in awe as you listen to lifehouses hanging by a moment on your soon to be antiquated

CD players. On top of Apple's foundational tech launches, Microsoft released the very first Xbox. Wikipedia came into existence. Google image searching became a new feature online and all these things happened in 2001 alone. Pretty soon tech became a snowball rolling down a hill, gaining speed and mass. What followed in the next 20 years included the development of Facebook, YouTube, the Wii, the iPhone, Android, smartphones and iPads all in that order.

Speaking of iPads, some are already predicting Gen Z will breed a generation dubbed iPad babies. That's terrifying. I believe there's even a new social media platform that's been announced that's only for children. What could go wrong? What will the long-term effects of this new screen fed generation be? We don't really know yet, but I'm not very optimistic. Just considering what Rocky Rambo thinks video

games caused him to do it for this episode of Sword and Scale. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to sign up for PLUS if you haven't already. There are 93 episodes. It's 93 hours of exclusive content you won't hear on the regular feed. PLUS bonus content, store discounts, and so much more. And check out the new Sticker perk for members at the $10 level and higher.

You can find out more at swordheadscale.com slash plus. Okay, that's it. I'm off to play Star Do Valley, because the worst that can happen is I'll grow some beets and watermelons. I hope you do the same, and we'll see you next time. Until then, stay safe! Mike, I fucking love you. You are so amazing. I fucking love the podcast.

I just finished all 187 episodes of dying at the last messages. They're so funny when people are hating on you. I think it's hilarious. But I'm a pro bitch, but I've got what I'm about to do. So that's the plot. So thank you for all you do. I love the podcast and have a great day. 1. Draw the line on the back of the head 2. Draw the line on the back of the head you