Sword and Scale - Episode 85

Episode Date: March 12, 2017

There are few things more horrifying than the idea that your children can be taken from their beds, from their own home, while there's an adult sleeping inside, yet that's exactly what happened on the morning of Monday, Oct. 10, 2016 in Fort Wayne, Indiana. We, as a modern society, have systems in place, technological marvels, to prevent and deter these things from happening. However, in this case, the very system that was used to try and rescue the children ended up leading to their deaths. This is the bizarre story of Amber Pazstor told through her own words. We're joined by Brett Thomas from WAYN-TV Newschannel 16, who interviewed Pazstor from behind bars to find out why she chose to perform this horrible series of actions. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Sort and scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences Listener discretion is advised There are people Amber people are saying that you're a monster are you monster? No, I'm not a monster. Who said I'm a monster? There are lots of people saying you're a monster online on Social media. No, what do they mean by I'm a monster online on social media. No, what are they mean by a monster? What do they mean by that?

Welcome to Sword and Scale. Season 4, Episode 85, a show that reveals that the worst monsters are very real. Hey, the show isn't for everyone. I'm fully admit that. There are lots of people out there that want to believe, want to desperately believe. But the world is a beautiful place. That's great. Go ahead.

But then, why are you here? The fact of the matter is, we live where we live. We are what we are. And wishing it away does nothing. This is a story I wish I had never had to tell. We're joined by Brett Thomas, head anchor of Wayne TV, news channel 15, to help guide us through this rabbit hole of despair with a stunning piece of journalism. One that will leave you absolutely speechless and disgusted by what we as humans are capable of.

On the afternoon of January 13, 1996, in Arlington, Texas, a young girl went missing. missing. Her name was Amber Renee Agerman. She had been riding bike with her five-year-old brother Ricky. They had peddled to an abandoned grocery store about a block away from their house. Ricky turned his bike around to head back home. That's when a dark colored pickup truck pulled up beside Amber. A Hispanic man jumped out and grabbed her. She screamed, but there was no one around to help. 78-year-old Jim Kevill was in his backyard when this occurred.

He had a view of the parking lot and he saw the whole thing happen. He called the police, but it was too late. Amber was gone. A similar truck to the one Jim Kevill spotted had been seen outside a nearby laundromat before Amber was taken. But the truck was not seen after. Local police, along with the FBI and a large army of local volunteers, led a massive search throughout the area, looking for Amber.

We now know what Amber's fate was. She had been kept alive for two days and repeatedly raped. We know this because just four days later, a man was walking his dog near the forest hole apartments just a few miles away from where the abduction occurred when he came upon a child's body at the bottom of a creek bed. Her neck had been slashed. The autopsy would later reveal the horrible truth of Amber's last days on Earth. This story received almost round the clock media coverage. The cute little nine-year-old girl's face plastered over news report after news report. Something about this story captivated the public and attracted massive media attention. I wish I could tell you that her killer was found, arrested, charged, and punished for

what he did to Amber, but it would not be true. He was never caught. The truck was never caught. The truck was never found. By 1999, the search had gone cold, and no arrests were ever made. Within days of her death, Amber's parents were calling for tougher laws governing sex offenders and established an organization called Passo, People Against Sex Offenders. They collected hundreds of signatures, hoping to force the Texas legislature into passing stronger laws to protect children.

This led to the Amber Hagerman Child Protection Act, signed in a law by President Bill Clinton in 1996, which created the first National Sex Offender Registry. In 1998, the Child Alert Foundation created the first fully automated alert notification system, which alerted local media in the affected community immediately when a child was reported to have been abducted. The alerts went out to television stations surrounding law enforcement agencies, newspapers, and local support organizations via pages, faxes, and emails. Since then, we have entered the

age of the smartphone, and every smartphone now has the alert system built into it. All-sitizens within the affected area to look out and report a vehicle linked to the abduction of a child. This has become known as the Amber Alert System, a tribute to Amber Hagerman. In fact, I received an Amber Alert just yesterday while I was at the bookstore researching this episode. Sitting there with my coffee and laptop, my cell phone made that unmistakable alert sound. Then I heard another phone go off with the same sound, someone sitting near

by me, and then another. Suddenly, everyone within Central and Southern Florida was made aware to look for a 2005 Black Nissan Altima, tied to the disappearance of two-year-old Bane Wheeler. The alert included the license plate number of the vehicle. And within 24 hours, the child was found safe in Orlando, Florida. The abductor had been his father after a domestic dispute situation. I'd just start off by thanking everybody, the media, everybody involved, for paying attention to the amber alert. We were able to locate Bane safely and his

father Daniel. We're currently working with Child Protective Investigations and investigating what happened and why. Since it was created the amber alert system is credited with the successful rescue of more than 300 missing and abducted children. It is a modern marvel. The clever use of technology for the common good to protect our children. But the story we're about to tell you proves that even the most well-intentioned idea can be turned on its head and exploited for evil. This is a story in which the amber alert system may have actually contributed to the deaths of two children. Good evening. Two children are missing tonight. An amber alert was issued after they were abducted

in Fort Wayne around six o'clock this morning. News Channel 15, Sarah Schaefer is live from outside the home where they were taken from. Sarah, seven-year-old Liliana loves to jump on this trampoline. And over here, six-year-old Renee loves to ride this bike, but tonight they're both missing. Police are searching for them and their family is desperately waiting. Monday, 6.21am, Fort Wayne, Indiana. A modest single family home sits off the highway of US 33. A route that runs northwest to Southeast for 709 miles from northern Indiana to Richmond, Virginia.

This is the home of Ricky and Emily Green. Ricky has already left for work at 6am. Emily is in a back room still sleeping. A couple watches over three children, six-year-old Lilliana Hernandez, seven-year-old Renee Pastore, and three-year-old Jules Santos Aguirre, although they have custody, none of the children are theirs. They are the biological children of Ricky's daughter, Amber Pastore, making them technically their grandchildren.

Technically, you are their grandfather, but would you say you're really more their father? Yep, more of a father, further. Yep, you're talking to me as a dad, call me dad. The greens had sought and gained legal custody of these three children over a year prior because their mother Amber was having problems. I know she's done math, I know she does spice

and I know her head's all messed up, she does spice and I know her heads all messed up but she's got to know them or kids. Amber has come to this home at 6.21 am and broke through the front door while Emily was sleeping. She barged in and abducted two of her three kids, Renee and Liliana, but for some reason she leaves the three-year-old boy behind. Emily was powerless to stop the attack, but Amber was seen driving off with the two children in a tan mercury mystique. It is later determined that this vehicle belongs to a man by the name of 65-year-old Frank McCumber. Amber's next-door neighbor apparently Frank had helped Amber from time to time, with

a ride or money. Attempts to contact Macumber are unsuccessful, and police suspect the two are traveling together. At 12.30 pm, an Amber alert is issued throughout the entire state of Indiana, and the media congregates around the Green home, asking questions about their troubled daughter. I love them children, and I love her. I just salt and pray. I'm down on my knees in front of God.

I just open that my kids come home. Please don't hurt them kids. There's a reason why Amber doesn't have custody of her kids. Actually, there are several. Amber had been charged with numerous minor criminal offenses in both Indiana and Texas, where she lived for a while. Besides the various driving offenses, including driving without a license, criminal trespass, battery, disorderly conduct, her stepmother and father thought she posed a danger to her preschool son and took out protective

orders against her. She had also threatened her father and stepmother through the telephone and text messages, saying she would harm them, break into their house, and take the children away from them. Apparently, she did just that. A warrant had even been issued for pastor on an invasion of privacy charge, and she was convicted of criminal trespass and sentenced to 365 days in jail. If you want to go further back, she was also charged with underage drinking in 2005 and charged for drunk driving and causing bodily injury in 2006. She also had three charges of battery between 2009 and 2010

Neighbors called her a nuisance She ran through her neighborhood at night screaming and banging on doors They said pastor was involved in several loud disturbances Accumulated debris in the yard and let her dog run loose in the trailer park It is reported that in the summer of 2014, Pastor repeatedly left her three-year-old boy jewels alone all night while blasting the stereo so that neighbors couldn't hear him cry. While being evicted from the trailer home she rented, she had vandalized it, breaking windows and throwing furniture and debris out into the

yard. According to her father and stepmother, Amber had a serious substance abuse problem. She had been arrested for possession of drugs and drug paraphernalia in 2013 and 2015 and had been incarcerated for those offenses. Her own mother called her evil, and then there was the murder. On January 29, 2010, Renee Hernandez, the biological father of all three of pastores children, was found dead with his hands taped behind his back. His body was found cut in half and left in a wooded area near county roads 400 south and 700 east in Whitley County. He was just 24 years old at the time.

He had been reported missing more than a year earlier on December 19, 2009. The case had turned cold. It was one of two bodies that were apparently killed in Fort Wayne and left in Whitley County around the same time. Amber Pastor, who was still pregnant with Liliana at the time, was questioned by the Whitley County Sheriff's Office, but she was never considered a viable suspect. Amber's cell phone panged near this theater and Auburn ple command center there. M all over we're involved. all the key nine teams that in the in the northwest of

Sadly, the search for Lil and Renee pastor would com about 12 hours after they The Amber Alert was canceled at 6.15 p.m. So Sergeant, can you tell us what what what you're doing here tonight? Yeah. Earlier late this afternoon early afternoon, Alan County Sheriff's Department issued a Amber Alert in regards to two children that were taken

potentially by their mother. They believe that the children were in danger due to the circumstances that the kids were taken. An amber alert was sent out as one of our officers was leaving for the day. He was walking across Marion Street when he was stopped by a motorist. That motorist told him that there were two deceased children in the back of the vehicle. We conducted an investigation. We've determined that the woman that was driving the vehicle was the mother of the two children that were reported abducted with the ember alert. At this time we believed that the two children that were located in the backseat of the car were her children. We're working with Fort Wayne. They were able to come up here and provide us a little bit of background information.

And at this time, she's been arrested for two counts of murder. Is she stated why this happened? We can't discuss right now exactly what led us up to the point where we were able to make an arrest. Other than our detectives have done a great job looking at the evidence and collecting that and going through that, and they felt they had enough to make an arrest this time. In an absolutely shocking piece of television, evening news anchor Brett Thomas from News Channel 15's Wayne TV was able to talk to Amber Pastor through a video conference jailhouse interview and ask her why she did this. Hey Amber, I was calling because I wanted to get your story.

Nobody's telling your story about what happened. All we're hearing about is what happened from the prosecutor. We're hearing about it from the police department. We're not hearing all this from you. I was hoping you could tell me what happened on that Monday. My kids are in a better place. They're in heaven now. Yeah, can you tell me what happened that day that led up to that, Amber? What do you mean?

Well, I mean, please say that you kicked in uh... their grandparents door and took the kids in frank with combers car and then they say you ended up in elk heart when you flagged the officers down said your kids were dead in the back seat is that pretty much what happened yet telling about that day.

I didn't really kick in the door. I didn't kick in the door. I shoved in the door. You shoved it in and then you went and got the kids? When I left, I closed it. Okay. So they got to see like nobody was there. Yeah.

So that morning, you got the kids. Why did you want to get the kids so badly that you needed the shove in the door? It's not there better off in heaven So you made a plan. They don't have no worries anymore. So you made a plan. That was the idea. I bet In my mind nobody knew about it. Yeah Why did you want to do that Amber? Why would you want to send your kids to heaven? So they don't have to be in this cold world no more Did you think that their lives were that bad that they were that bad off that you needed to kill them?

No, they weren't good hands, but I don't think they were safe Not due to my family to other reasons. Okay, I don't think they're safe. It's not due to my family, it's a other reason. Okay. Did I not discuss my business, not nobody else's? I understand. I want to discuss it with the police, so. Right. Well, we can discuss that at some point if you want.

But let's talk about that day. When did you start thinking that you wanted to send your kids to heaven and that you wanted to put them in what you call a better place? That day. That morning you got up. Did you tap it so fast? Did you tap it so fast? We had a chance to speak to Brett Thomas about his take on Amber's bizarre and often aloof

answers. I just wanted to know what it was. What was the reason why he decided decided she had to kill her kids? And that's where I was headed. That seems to be the question everybody has on their mind. Like, why would you do this? Yeah. You start to get into some of those details

about what happened and you ask her, why did you want to send your kids to heaven? And she says, it just happened so fast. What happened so fast? what was she mean by that i don't know i think that uh... i don't think that she intended on killing her kids necessarily that work i think that it was maybe a thought in her mind and i think that uh... as she was driving around not really knowing exactly what

she wanted to do not really having any kind of real plan in mind that once she heard the amber alert go out on the radio and realize that she was going to jail and there was really no going back at that point that she decided that it was best that she was going to take their lives for whatever reason and so she did it relatively fast and so when she's saying it happened so fast she's essentially just kind of describing how she made the decision, she stopped the car, she had this just kind of diabolical conversation with these two children who had no idea what they're, you know, answering these questions

about, and then smothered them. And so it was all over within just probably a matter of an hour or less. And so that's the part that she's talking about happened so fast. I knew that Frank was good. Well, so you knew the Frank, go ahead and tell me about Frank, what happened there? You knew that Frank, what?

He was spying on me. He was spying on you? Parking. Oh, OK. And so that day you got in the car and you had the kids in the back seat and then did you drive them to Elkhart County? Why'd you end up there? I had to get out of four lanes because I stole his car.

Okay. Tell me about your children. Tell me about Renee, Lilliana. Did that happen to you? I, I saw it with that. I understand. I understand. She does get emotional when you start talking about the children almost immediately. Yeah. Right. And so you're dancing a very fine line here trying to keep her on the phone because you

want to ask more questions, but you know at any moment she could hang up. Yeah. Yeah, that was, I mean, really astute to see that because that was really You know the the line that we're trying to hang on there and and and to keep her on the line to get all the answers I could from her the push her as far as I could go without her just hanging up at any moment And there's several times in there. She's like I'm done. I'm done and I just ask her another question Yeah, you know try to go back to where we were and so she would stay on there so we could get several times in there. She's like, I'm done. I'm done. And I just ask her another question. Try to go back to where we were. And so she would stay on there so we could get more out of her.

Because it was just it was kind of a mind blowing interview. And I didn't expect her one to show up when I made the request and two to confess to everything. Everything. But can you tell me why you needed to do that? You don't know, buddy. Okay. So you told the police though, Amber, I know this is tough, I know this is tough. But you told the police that you put your hand over them and you smothered them to death.

Is that true? Yes. I didn't want to shoot up. I couldn't shoot up. No, did you have a gun? Yes. What, who did you smother first? My daughter. And then Renee? Yes, you want to go with her? Really? I gave them a choice. What'd you say to them? They could live solidized like their malware that you go to heaven and we've got to be better off. And they chose to go to heaven? Yes. What did they say? Did they say, I want to go to heaven?

Or did they just agree? My daughter said she would kill herself first before somebody hurt her. The question you ask at this point is pretty brilliant. It's basically, what did you say? You want to know exactly what she said because hearing, you know, what it is she instructed her children, like I'm sure you've heard of dozens of cases where adults can manipulate children into giving them the answers that they want to hear.

And you also ask them, what did the children say? What, how did they respond? And she doesn't seem to want to answer that question. No, no. I mean, with, she answered that with Milly Anna liana you know she says it really honest and that she didn't want to you live a life like her mother did and she didn't want to have a hard life and that's what the thing so lily on it like this was parading with her mother had already told her

uh... you know in leading up to all this and kind of brainwashing the minute into thinking that they would prefer to go to heaven the live their lives out on the realm but with the may i don't think that was as willing a particularness because he watched his sister get smothered right in front of him. And then she turns to him and is like, it's your turn. And she did say in the interview that he struggled, you know, he fought her on it. And so he was not, I think he came to the understanding as he watched it sister die

what exactly his mother was asking him to do and the gravity of it. And then you know he was not going to go as easily I don't think and he wasn't going to agree to it. So that's why she wasn't quite as forthcoming about it, but his response was. So you put your hands over their nails. Did they fight you at all? A little bit, yes. Yeah. What did René do when he saw that his sister was being,

what, what did René do when he saw he didn't do anything? He knows mommy knows what's better, what's better than him. Nobody knew a lot of your child like a mother was. What went through your mind when she says, mommy knows what's best for them? Nobody knew a love your child like a mother would. What went through your mind when she says, mommy knows what's best for them. Oh, oh, yeah. I've watched that part back so many times and just been so infuriated by it.

Do you have any regrets and your remorse in doing that? A lot of remorse. Are you sad that you did that? A lot of regrets. Yes, I'm very sad. Do you wish you had a that? A lot of regrets. Yes, I'm very sad. Do you wish you had a lot of regrets in my life? Yeah, I know. I've heard a little bit about your life. You've had a tough life, Amber. I understand. Do you regret killing your kids?

No. You don't. I don't. Why not? If I know they're better off. Let's start out with that day, okay Amber? Can we start there with the morning you and you got your kids? How did you get Frank's car?

I shot him. You shot Frank. Yeah. Where did you shoot him in his house? In the woods. So you took him to the woods? Out on Wall and Rogue? Yeah. And that's where you took him to the woods? I don't wallen rogue. Yes.

And that's where he shot him. Did he know you're going to shoot him? Did he know that his life was in danger? I don't know, sir. I don't really want to speak with anything. I don't even speak to the police, so why would I speak to you? Okay. I understand. I understand.

So you needed, Frank. The police have me questions all the time. And I don't have answers for you or the police, as far as... No, it you needed friends. The police have me questions all the time and I don't have answers for you or the police far. No, it's alright. So you needed his car, is that why you did that? Sir, honestly I'm going to end up hanging up to solve. Okay, that's fine.

Well, before you hang up, because I want to hear your story. I want you to tell me a little bit more about what happened. My story is somebody wants to run my life and I don't know why. I have no idea what I did so long for somebody to run me like his life. I don't know what I did so long. And I'll get it. Yeah. When she admits to having killed Frank McCumber, is that a piece of information that was already available or was that something she admitted right there live on the air? Well, the interview wasn't live. I didn't make sure here, but it was a taped interview that we did

put right prior to the new new cast that day. But, um, she, no, nobody knew that. That was, everybody, you know, she'd already been pretty much charged and everybody was looking for her or the mother and we knew that she had been involved in the death of her children allegedly at that point. But nobody really knew exactly if she was connected to Frank McCumber or not. And so that was really the newest information

to come out at that time anyway was when she said, yeah, I killed him. And she just said it so matter of factly and so quickly. I mean, there's not even a second that she waits to answer that question or to think about it or to consider maybe whether or not she wants to dodge it. She just says, I did it. I did it. I shot him. What was going on in your life, Amber, that was so horrible that you thought you needed to take your kids lives? People always tell me We're in danger No, I have nothing

For anybody So you were fearing for their lives that somebody else was gonna hurt them or harm them in some way? Yes So you're referring for their lives that somebody else was going to hurt them or harm them in some way? Yes. Yes. Why would somebody want to harm your kids, Amber? Why would they do that? I have an idea. You don't know.

I mean, did somebody make threats against your children's lives? Does somebody tell you that they're going to harm your kids? I have it for you. Okay. Is that what led to that? and harm your kids. I have it right, yes. OK. Is that what led to that? And I'm not going to wake up. I could wake up.

No. No, somebody can have my darns. She's not. It would be found. Sorry. OK. What are the details regarding the children's father's death? Because that is not clear to me.

No, it's still not clear. Nobody really knows. You know, Renee Hernandez was found in a wooded area, west of Fort Wayne in Whitley County in 2010. Cut in half from what I understand. I've never seen an exact autopsy report on how he was covered. I see it was cut in two.

And his body had been out there for several months, they think. And apparently at the time, they had interviewed Amber Maser, who said that she was his girlfriend. And nothing ever came of it. And I talked to the Whitley County detective who was involved with it at that time. And he said that there wasn't any kind of real evidence that showed that she might have been involved in Renee's death in any way whatsoever. And so it's never really gone any further down that line as to whether she was involved in it or not. So there's still this huge mystery that's surrounding what happened to Renee Hernandez. Nobody really knows. There's never been anybody charged in the case. No suspects have have ever been released and so it's one of those cases it still continues to be a you know mystery amber were you doing any kind of drugs at

the time no I was not doing any drugs no drugs at all so you weren't on spice we're not anything I mean wasn't, nothing was influencing your mind. So, were you up all night when you went to get the kids? So, I don't have anything else to say to you. Because I know you're putting me on TV. Well, we're trying to get to the bottom of all this, just trying to understand all, is all. Just trying to understand what happened there Amber you know and it's your chance to kind of tell me what what your side of the story is because like I said before the police aren't going to answer your

questions or I'm going to tell your story they're just going to tell the story they want us to hear. I just know my kids are in heaven and they better offer Jesus. Yeah. What about Renee? What about the kids? That's what Jesus... What about Renee? What? What about Renee Hernandez?

Renee Hernandez. Do you know what happened to him? No. No. You know? All of them told the animals to eat him. I don't know. So you weren't involved in his death at all? No. Not at all. Not at all. That was my best friend. That was my best friend. Ray was. Yeah. Oh, is that his... you have tattoo of his name on your arm? Yeah. Okay. So you weren't involved? Because I mean, there's some people who are saying you were involved in his death, but you were not.

No, it was not ever involved in his death, ever a million years. So my best friend, I was my kid's father. And whether Amber Pasfer had any connection to it, I'm not certain because the police didn't believe that she did at the time anyway. And I asked her that in our interview and she said, no, she was not involved in her debt. She'd not have anything to do with that whatsoever. And then she starts to be on. And if you notice that she sticks her hand up in front of the camera for arm anyway,

and it has a tattoo on it, and that tattoo says were they on it. And so somehow I think this is proof, I guess, that she's saying that how would I kill anybody because I put tattoo on his arm? Oh, my arm, I loved him so much. So there's still a lot of questions surrounding that one. And I don't know. I don't know what the answer is.

That is fascinating because without that piece of information, she comes across on tape as someone suffering from paranoid schizophrenia. it seems like. Is that the sense you got to or did you really think that maybe there was someone out to get her? This thing she kept repeating, somebody that was out to get her children and to get her? I, you know, I never really got a good answer on that one. She recused to really answer whether or not or who these people were supposedly that were after her and who would harm her children for some reason. I suppose you could call that some kind of paranoid schizophrenia. It might be something

too that was just driven by the fact that she was a hard life and had a lot of threats made against her and she was a drug addict according to her friends and family addicted to spice and and you know probably had was dealing with some pretty rough individuals who are selling her the stuff and they may have made some kind of comments or threats at some point that you know I'm not aware of. I think yes you probably was paranoid whether it's schizophrenia I'm not qualified to make that determination. Hey Amber, on Monday, when you decided that you were going to take your kids' lives, what did you do all day?

What were you doing? You left the house, it was early in the morning, you pushed the door in, you woke up the kids, and what did you guys do all day? We were scared. Just like I was being followed everywhere. So that's when I fall off the window. Because I'm kept following all of me follows. And I don't know why people want to mess with me. I don't

understand why. What did I do so bad? I don't understand somebody wrong my life. And my kids did. These are none of this. What is her angel? But you thought it was so bad that you needed to kill them? No. What was the last thing that you said to Lilyana before you smothered her? That letter? That letter? The easiest way out.

What did you say to her name? I told her, because I told her if you don't go, if you don't work with me, I'm not going to do it again. I'm taking her back home. And then he let you smother him? Yes, because they're scared. They're scared of what happened to their dad. Right. What did they say to them? I don't know what happened to their dad. So did René? I don't know why, I don't know. Yeah. But Amber did René struggle then? Did he try to stop you from doing that to a sister? No. Did Muleon struggle at all? And there was times when they could have asked for help, they could have asked for please. They knew nobody's going to protect them the way mommy will.

Nobody's going to bump them like mommy will, like their real mother will. I'm going to send a rest on my IPI bars. I'm gonna send a personal idea in bars. I'm gonna die locked up. But at least I know my kids are in heaven if they're not watching their back. Water, just to make you sense them up. Hey Amber, have you talked to your lawyer about the possibility that the prosecutor might seek the death finality? No. Are you aware that the state of Indiana has a death penalty and that they may seek that against you? Where, Fort Wayne? No, in No-Cart County.

Where you're at right now? I'm not. That's not where I'm offered. I'm offered 65 years. OK. So are they going to cut a deal with you then? There's no deal on guilty So they're saying that that if you plead guilty to this whole thing don't give you life in prison

Yes, I plead guilty to my charges. Yes Well, the judge entered a not guilty plea for you You remember that in court what the judge entered a not guilty plea for you in court. Do you remember that? So have you played? I see But it's really hasn't got a hold of me and I need to speak with him Right Yeah, you want to do that at some point won't you?

the roles of the legal system and the media aren't always perfectly aligned do you feel that this interview may have hurt amber's case you know that's a tough one uh... because you're right they aren't always that you know we are always working on the exact same page and that's probably best

that we're not because we we have to be adversaries as far as obtaining information at times. I don't believe that it hurt her case because I think the case was really strong against sort of start with whether or not she admitted to me or to anybody else that she did it on camera interview. I don't think we'll make any kind of real difference that way. Especially since she's already admitted to police immediately when she pulled out to the police station in Elkharton said

I'm the one on the amber alert and she had her dead children in the back seat. It was kind of a slam dunk case at that point. So as you were driving around what made you decide to flag down the police officer? Why did you go to the police station? You got it. I knew what I did and I knew I was wrong. So you knew you did something that was very bad, but you don't regret it? Sir, I don't have nothing else to say to you, okay? I understand. Is there anything else that you want to add here, though, Amber, because this is your

chance to get your word out? No, there's nothing that I want to say. There's no...my problems are my problems. They're not nobody else's. I understand. I don't speak to the police. I don't speak to nobody. My problem is going on with me. It's my problem. Right. You don't want to share what had you so scared.

You don't want to share what was going on there. I mean, there's not much that can happen now. You can tell me nobody can get you to you inside there. No, I'm sorry. I have nothing to tell you. Do you wish that you hadn't done that? Do you wish that your kids were back with you? I wish my kids were with me. I wish that we had a whole another pass. I wish that I would have... Which one of the army would I have 18 years old in life? Where did all go wrong for you, Amber? Where did all go wrong?

Growing up, I'm talking to all of this I ain't around the wrong people. Yeah. I ain't ever killed nobody in my life. Not till I do. Not till that day, huh? And then you just decided to do it. What made you make that decision though? What made you make that decision?

So you're trying to get answers out of me that you're not going to get. So you might be wasting your time. Well, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of it, Amber. I mean, because I know there has to be more to it. Deeds, you people need to stop running people's family. Okay. Okay. I'm just saying, there's innocent families out there that are getting hurt for no reason.

It's not fair. Right. Right. I'm not putting nobody's life in jeopardy. I'm sorry. I have nothing to tell you. I have nothing to tell nobody. And it's the witness.

In our corners, the same thing. I have nothing to say to them. Right. Other than I told my kid And they're in heaven and there and he And what I get if I get my life here bars or the definitely that's what I got a little bit. Okay Why did you end up in Alcars? Why did you go there? I Was driving so you just randomly Michigan I

I wasn't Michigan State. You went to MSU? And then I had a bit L-Cart. Yes. Why did you go to Michigan? I was driving out. We were going to drive far away. And so you ended up in the...

Well, I was in Amber Alert. I went out of the Northern Amber Alert. I kept missing, and there with me in that very dangerous, where I went on the radio, that's when I went right to the car, and that's when I killed my kid. After the ambulance was issued, you forgot. And God, I raise a Bible, I raise a Bible every day.

God forgives me and God knows why I did what I did. Okay. Nobody else needs to know. What time was it that you killed your kids? I don't know. Sorry, you're gonna make me freak out, you're gonna make me cry, you're gonna ruin my day. I already have a bad enough, I'm in a wheelchair,

I cry all the time. I'm like all I do is, I'm on the energy, all I do is read the Bible. I understand. I'm just looking for kind of the time. I have nothing. So you drove, I'm just getting a time. I feel like I can hear a certain engage.

This is awesome. I feel like I can hear a certain engage. Did you really get any sort of sense of remorse at all from her? Well, you know, she at least answered the right way. You know, I asked her several times in different ways if she was sorry for doing it. She said that she was. At one point I asked her, are you sorry because you killed your kids or you sorry because I caught you?

Sort of thing. She said she's sorry because she killed her kids. Then I also asked her why she went to the L-car police station. She said, because what I did was wrong, which shows some kind of understanding of what she was doing there. So it shows, I think, and I'm no expert on this, but some kind of level of confidence when it comes to a court case. She recently sent a letter to the judge in the case, admitting to all of it and saying

that she's ready to spend life in prison, she's ready to pay for her crimes and what she did was wrong. And so, and once again, she was kind of saying once again what she had told me in that interview to the judge at that point. So I think that she does have some remorse. I do believe that she feels sorry for what she did, but you know, you have to take all that with a grain of salt here because, you know, she killed her two children. She smothered them in the back seat in just a way that would be just, would take a long time and be with very, you know, very traumatizing. I would think to anybody.

So you drove to East Lansing and then you heard the Amher Alert in East Lansing? I killed my kids in Elkhart. So you? That's all you need to know. Was it in the afternoon? Was it in the morning? Afternoon. Why did the Amher Alert lead you to kill your kids then? Did I know the police were going to get us? It wasn't me, be behind bars, and then my kids out of here with my problems, no, I'm sorry, no. I'm not that selfish, I'm sorry. So the... I'm not a coward.

There are moms out there that's coward and the lead, and the leader kids out here, and they don't care who mess with them, I'm not a coward, okay? Okay. Sorry. But they were in really good hands, they were in a really good home, they were in a Christian home, yes. But that doesn't mean everything. That doesn't mean just putting a Christian home that does not mean they're safe.

Right. So you did- So all these years, all these years were Renee, Hernandez, I can't stand. I did not ever know. Nothing about him. Nothing. Ever. Then for me to find out, that's the animal that he is. I'm traumatized, okay? I have nothing to say. Okay. Okay, okay.

Where did you hear the umbrella on the radio? What? Where did you hear the umbrella on the radio? Where were you when you heard? Oh, a car. You were in L-car then. Okay. We were in Frank's car driving.

I was scared even getting them out of the car. I was scared for us to get out of the car. Yeah. And wait, where did you kill him? Was it... No. What did you say, sir? Where did you kill him?

Where was it in the drive-in? I didn't hear this. I didn't hear what you said, sir. Where did you kill them? What parking lot were you in when you did it? We wasn't in a parking lot. Oh, where were you? We were by a park. Do you remember which park it was? And then I threw the gun in the Michigan River from where? Okay,

but you were in no park. The gun is probably long gone. Yes, I've got a Michigan State River so it won't be found. Okay. And so that's where you did it at a park. Oh, cart. Okay. And after I did that, I drove a Michigan through the gut of the river and Michigan. See, wait, you killed the kids in Elkart. Then you drove to Michigan. Yes. And you threw the gun. You get rid of the gun that I shot Franklin. Yep. In which river do you know? No, I have no idea. So let me get this straight.

I'm not from there. Let me just make sure I got this right. You drove to Elkhart. You killed your kids in Elkhart. Then with your kids in the back seat still, you drove to Michigan and threw the gun in a river. Yep. Then you drove back to Elkhart. to Michigan and through the gun and a river. Then you drove back to Elkhart?

Yes, it did. It took my kids to the police station. It took your kids to the police station. Yep. I drive the Kizalik mission. I see the cop. It's there. I'm the Amber Alert.

My kids is there. I killed them. It was a little crazy. I'm on medicine now. So I'm a little calm. They got me on medicine for all the time. I'll call with them. I'm going to get a little bit of. They got me on medicines all the time.

I'll call them down. At first they would say, we couldn't even come in the room with me. They were scared to be around me at first because I was going, I didn't take it too well. I didn't lose my kids. Me, what I did in my kids, I'm not taking it too well because they're innocent babies. I were going to bring them into this world. Somebody asked me a four-way, they said, don't you regret having them kid? taking it too well because they're innocent babies. I'm going to bring them into this world. Somebody asked me a four-way, and they said, don't you regret having them kids? Don't you

regret bringing them into this world? Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Do you really think that it was fair that you would make the decision for them that you would take their lives? Is that really fair? Shouldn't they be allowed to live and grow in this world and determine what they're going to be later on in life themselves? No. I'm their mom. I know it's best for my kids. I know my best and I know what I did through and I know all these years I've been childhood. And I can't expect them to grow up and not be traumatized and messed up in the head like I am. Amber's mommy knows best answer paints a sharp contrast to the events of that day. Shouldn't they be allowed to decide what they want to be when they grow up? Shouldn't

they be allowed to control their own destiny and she's like no. And the way she just says no. I mean she stops me right there is like that is not acceptable that's not an acceptable you know uh... question or line of questioning because i'm the mother and i know best and that was the most chilling moment i think it out of the entire interview with her was when uh... she was not going to even give up

just a tiny bit of independence to be children. It was all her decision. They had no choice. Yeah. Hey, do you know why you you didn't have custody? Do you know why you didn't why why did you lose custody your kids to start with? Why is that? Why? Yeah. Because I want to text it. You want to text it? That's life. Yeah. So you ran off and then you lost custody because of that? I don't know, sir, let me ask you to keep on. Okay, I'm sorry. Is there a better way you can find ways to make a story than you go ahead and do that. But I have no answers for you. I have no name. I have no answers for you at all

I am sorry. I Learned my lesson for everything I've done in my life and Believe me. I will learn my lesson What about let's talk about Frank. There's other ways Can you tell me more about Frank? Did you was that his gun or was that your gun? It was this guy. I offered him that's for the gun and he did it. When was that?

I don't remember. I don't even know what today is. Monday, the pin. I don't remember. It breaks me to a Texas steak place. And then he said, you see that truck? That truck knows you're ever, do you see that truck? That truck knows where I remove.

Do you see that truck? I said, no, I don't see no truck. I don't know what you're talking about, but. So it makes me break to me a Walmart and what we're taking. And I was gonna sleep in the woods with the gun. And I thought, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, but it's in Frank. It's going to do something to me or somebody else. That's when I shot him. I worked. Because in my eyes, I feel like you've got to kill or you're going to be killed.

Or you're going to fall into the trap. Well, I'm not falling into the trap. So that's what my mind was saying. Me and them are not falling into the trap. So you shot him, did he shoot him or did you sneak up on him? He knew all shoes were good. You guys shot him a couple times, and he kept hearing a bang. And if I go, it's for me, there's times he's thought about killing himself,

that he's not happy in his life. But I don't think he was really too worried about being shot honestly. Was he facing you when you shot him? I left his wallet his phone. What? Was he facing you when... No, I didn't start him. No, was he facing you?

What? Was he looking at you when you shot him? No, he wasn't. I aimed the gun one time in shot him. I don't know where I shot him at. I don't know how I had an aim in me and like that. Like I did, but I did. How far were you away from him? I'm not proud of it. How far were you away? Maybe a couple feet, about 5 feet. Okay. And then you took his car? Yeah, I put a gentle rum. Okay. Look at the Clark. He had a shovel. At his trailer, he had a shovel.

A really shovel that he bought. And I did that shovel. But you know, I really honestly, sir, I don't know. There's nothing really I could tell you. So were the kids with you at that time? No. What was it? She was forthcoming on all of it. How she killed her children. How she killed Franklin Cumber. Why she did it to a certain extent. It was just a mind-blowing, chilling interview.

As far as the frank the combert you know that the concerns you haven't been charged in his case at this point although i imagine down lines you will be once they kind of get done with a lot of the preliminary determining whether or not she's uh... you know mentally competent and uh... the case goes forward in ill-carc County so the kids work with you then with so you know i do you are regret forward in Elkhart County. So the kids weren't with you then. So and I do. Yes, I do. I do. I do. I do. I do. We're ready. But what I do. We're ready. Is no one that they're safe and heavy.

Okay, so now you regret you were a lot. I do regret killing my kids. Yes, but I don't regret that they the same thing. I know they're safe and they don't have to watch their back like I do. If you could do it all over Amber would you not kill your kids? Yes. There's no way I could do it all over other things all my life in my life. I've been small in college and in church taking it to Sunday school like a mother should. A real mother should. When you decided to do that that morning, was that the first time that thought crossed your mind that you would kill your kids? No.

You thought of it before? I thought about killing my whole family. I thought about killing my whole family. I thought about killing my whole family. Why didn't you do that? So we'd be better off. Why? Why didn't you kill your whole family? I just didn't have a heart to shoot up.

I didn't have a heart to shoot my family. I didn't even have a heart to shoot my kids. But you thought about shooting or killing your whole family. You thought about killing your whole family that day To save them Who else did you think about killing? Nobody Who in your family would you have killed

Okay Okay Okay. Okay. Hey, Amber, your family says that they've been getting death threats. Do you know anything about that? They're getting death threats from who? I don't know. Some people, they thought that they were getting death threats. Have you heard anything about that? No. Okay. I heard, I heard that all five were going to get their heads good off.

Okay. Who do you hear that from? That's what I was like, I don't know. I can't, I can't, I can't say name, I can't do it. Sorry. I can't even tell police officer, I'm sorry. Is this, this is have to do'm sorry. Is this have to do with drugs or do you owe money to somebody? Was it a drug thing? Is it a drug deal that led up to this?

No. No. I really want my family to get a hold of me. That's what I really want. I need to talk to them. Has anybody in your family? Has anybody talked to you since you were in jail? No, they won't talk. No, they won to talk to them has anybody talk to you since you're in jail. No, I won't talk to me. I really need to talk to them. Am I the first?

I need to understand Amber. Am I the first person? Yeah. Yes. And I was talking that it was maybe somebody from my family and it wasn't. Well, I'm sorry that it was me, but I'm glad we got a chance to talk. Maybe strengthen things out. What did you make of the fact that during the interview, she seems to have expected her family to have been there or shown up and she reaches out to her family, asking them to contact her. But during the same interview, she also admits to having thought of killing her whole family. I know.

I know. It was bizarre. From beginning to end, every single moment of it was either chilling or bizarre or frightening or just maddening. In that case, yeah, you're right. She said that she wanted to kill her family at some point and had considered that fact, which is just frightening in its own respect,

and to consider the fact that she had the opportunity, she had the ability, she had a gunmother, and she was able to gain access to the house when she took the kids. She could have taken all their lives at that point, but she chose not to, and so I think that, you know, she was just kind of admitting to one of those things that she had crossed her mind at some point that she wanted to kill her family.

And I imagine that most people that are willing to kill their own children probably have had those thoughts crossed their mind. And they're probably very lucky that she never went forward with them. But yeah, she, when she first showed up on that screen, you know, and we popped up, I think both of us were a little bit surprised because she didn't know who was coming.

She didn't know who was going to be talking to her that day. All she got was a request, you know, somebody wants to talk to you. And I didn't know if she was going to show up or not because I just assumed that they would tell her what my name was since, you know, in the request form for the video interview or the video conference phone call whatever you want to call it. You have to put your name down and I put down you know a bright time as a Wayne TV. So I just assumed that she would know who she was talking to immediately if she showed it up at all and most likely she wouldn't show up since she wouldn't want to talk to a journalist.

And so we both were kind of surprised when that video popped up to see who was there. And in her case, it was a level of disappointment because I was some foreign individualist. She'd never met before that was gonna ask her a lot of tough questions. But the thing is that she wanted to tell that story. She wanted to tell it. She had every opportunity to walk away from it.

She had every, as soon as she saw me and I said, I'm Brett Thomas. I didn't try to hide anything. I certainly would never do that. That would be unethical. You know, Brett Thomas, I'm with Wayne TV. I'm here to ask you questions about the story that you're involved in here and the accusations

that have been made against you. And at any point, she could have said, nope, I'm not doing that. I'm out of here. And as soon as I asked the first question, you're any of those questions, she could have said, I'm not going to do it, but I think she just desperately wanted to tell this story. She desperately wanted to get it off her chest, because she, I think she was ready to take responsibility for it. It might be the only thing that to take responsibility for it. It might be the only thing that is one of the better parts of her nature was that she was at least willing to say I did it and it was bad. And I shouldn't have done that and I regret it.

There are people, Amber, people are saying that you're a monster. Are you a monster? No, I'm not a monster. Who said I'm a monster? There are lots of people saying you're a monster online on social media There are lots of people of calling you a monster online and on social media and and just in general conversation But you're not a monster you say no

What do they mean by a monster? What do they mean by that? I mean because you tell me what do they mean by that? Well, they mean that because you killed your kids and they don't understand why you would do something like that. And so they think you're a monster. Only God can judge. So I don't care what they think, okay? If they believe all monsters, they'll be it. But I'm not a monster.

Because if I'm a monster, I'll be in here. Heart and grove in here. I'm not a monster, okay? I had a good heart. You know, I was a monster I'd be in here. Heart and grove in here. I'm not a monster, okay? I got a good heart. You know, I listen to the Lord. And with the Lord I'll leave you. I'm gonna do it. Okay. People talk about Jesus. Amber, did you...

I'm not a monster. Did you love your kids? Yes, I love my kids. From heart. Yeah. I try to see my kids From art. Yeah, I Try to see my kids every day all the time I Say just for my kids. I know I'll ask to see my kids. I want to see my kids You know, yeah, I

Payed child support for them Whatever I had to do with it, I did it. Yeah. Is there anything you want to say to your town? Anybody want to say to the, anything you want to say to the people of Fort Wayne? I just want to say there's one woman that I hate with all my heart. And I ain't saying no name. I just wanted to know I hate her with the past.

And I want her to know that. I hate you with the past. And I want her to know that. I hate you. OK. I just want to tell my family I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry, you say. What are you sorry for, Amber?

My life. Are you sorry because you're in jail? Or are you sorry because you killed your kid? No. Sorry because I killed my kid. I don't care if I've seen the rest of my life in here. But for a good reason. I don't think they understand that, Amber. I don't think they understand that Amber. I don't think they

understand that. It doesn't matter what they understand. Only God knows me. God can judge me. Only God can judge me. If people want to call me my friend, that's fine. Only God can judge me. Roughly about 200 people, including pastor's parents gathered on September 29th, 2016 in the evening in Alcart for a prayer vigil for Lilliana and Renee. They let candles. They sang Happy Birthday to Lilliana who would have turned eight that week. Ricky Green, Amber's father, had this to say just a few days prior. They were our babies, he said. God gave us babies, and she took them away. Despite Amber pastor's insistence that God is the only person that can judge her. That simply isn't the case. Her own father would disagree. Quote, I want to say to my daughter who did this, that she is not my daughter anymore.

I want her to burn. Hey Mike, my name is Colin. I'm a clinical psychologist specializing in the research and treatment of schizophrenia and psychosis. First of all, I just remember to say I love the show. I discovered it from about a month ago and I've just been binging on it till now. Finally caught up to where you're at with the episode now and I cannot wait for more. One thing I wanted to bring out is I know that you put a lot of time and a lot of research into all the episodes that you do. And I just wanted to hopefully encourage you

for the benefit of your listeners to look a little more into the experience of individuals with mental illnesses. Like, there's a really common misconception a little more into the experience of individuals with mental illnesses. There's a really common misconception that individuals with mental illnesses like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder unpredictable and prone to violence. And what research shows is that it's actually the opposite. That individuals with these disorders are more likely to be victims of violence themselves. And there's a really big amount of stigma that goes along with these and

ends up impeding the recovery of people that are having a really difficult time adjusting to having these disorders in their life. And so I really just want to encourage you and all of those nurse, such you in scale, to look a little bit more into this and hopefully get a better understanding so that we aren't really scared of someone that really could use more people in their life to help make them a little bit easier. And like I love the show, I'm not way to hear more and thanks for taking the time listening to my call.

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